Who has it harder, boys or girls

[TomTougher]

There is the age old debate of who has it harder, boys or girls. Well I will settle it once and for all. As to who has it harder, it depends on the person. To say that all girls have it harder than all boys or vice versa would be totally inaccurate, it depends on the individual girl vs the individual boy. To say that most girls have it harder than most boys or vice versa, to say that with any degree of accuracy you would have to know just how hard every boy in the world has it and just how hard every girl in the world has it. Not only that but even if you were to somehow get all that data, it would change since the degree of difficulty somebody's life is changes as their life changes. So if you were to find that most girls have it harder than most boys, or vice versa, it would only be at that particular time.

Anyway I will say this much, its really not worth making a fuss over how hard stuff is because lets face it, no matter how hard you've got it there's always somebody who has it harder.

[Gamma Male]

Biologically, girls.

Economically, girls.

Socially, girls.

One of the only advantages I can think of to being a girl is that you usually don't have a piece of your genitalia cut off at birth for no reason. And that's not even true in several Muslim countries.

[CharlieHorse]

I think the challenges both face are different, but I think in the end, neither one is more difficult.

[sunnieseason]

Biologically, girls.

Economically, girls.

Socially, girls.

One of the only advantages I can think of to being a girl is that you usually don't have a piece of your genitalia cut off at birth for no reason. And that's not even true in several Muslim countries.


Pretty girls don't have any economic problems, lol, there's power in being attractive and female.

[Gamma Male]

Pretty girls don't have any economic problems, lol, there's power in being attractive and female.

If I was a girl I don't think I'd be content knowing that my success is based off of my constituents wanting to have sex with me and not my value as a human being.

[ImCoolBeans]

Women are still not payed equally across the board, hold a fraction of the number of government jobs as compared to men, and are generally used more often in sex appeal-based marketing than men are. Women are "legally" equal to men, but it does not quite appear to be that way in reality. I'm not going as far as to say that all women "have it hard", because that's just not true, but I think society definitely favors men, to this day.

Pretty girls don't have any economic problems, lol, there's power in being attractive and female.

If you actually believe that then I feel bad for you when you start to enter the real world. Good looks can help you in some ways, but will honestly just end up getting you played and used if you're trying to use them for that kind of benefit.

[SethfromMI]

women for a variety of reasons. not that men cant have it bad, but i am very happy to have been born a man

[Gamma Male]

i am very happy to have been born a man

And a white American one at that! :D

[SethfromMI]

And a white American one at that! :D

haha well yea, but I do want to be perfectly clear, I personally do not judge when it comes to race in any way

[suzzysmith2012]

I would say woman have it harder in life and face more potential problems and struggles, but at the same time it can be the same for men. I think 2, that it depends on the situations, person, and location.

[Lovelife090994]

Both genders have their issues and difficulties. Men have difficulties as do women but men aren't ones to talk about them. When a man complains he is a bitch or a puss and has to shut up whilst being the perfect man. The man is expected to take care of everything in the household and treat his wife like a queen even if she abuses him. He is expected to never cry or show emotion and this can contribute to the high suicide rate in males. Men are supposed to be sexual and attracted to their wives but not another women else they are perverted or damaged if they feel no sexual attraction at all. Men are given less freedom to deviate from what is manly. A man hits a woman he's the Devil, a woman cuts off a man's penis she's the Queen. Man dates a younger woman she's a victim or a creep. A big woman dates a small man she's lucky and her guy is pathetic. Men's problems exist but are less talked about.
Men are paid differently based on height and color.

Women deal with periods... but use that as an excuse to shut men up. Women are paid less and treated with less respect... however women are more vocal and able to do whatever they want without recourse.

[PinkFloyd]

I'm not going to go into reasons other than physical ones. Being a girl would be more difficult because periods, giving birth, and unrealistic beauty standards.

[Sugaree]

Biologically, girls.

Economically, girls.

Socially, girls.

One of the only advantages I can think of to being a girl is that you usually don't have a piece of your genitalia cut off at birth for no reason. And that's not even true in several Muslim countries.

Biologically, I agree with you.

Socially? Please tell me where, exactly, girls have it hard when it comes to social environments. Women are the most catered to gender in society when it comes to domestic abuse, child support, custody rights...I fail to see how hard women have it when it comes to their fitting into society.

Economically? Again, I want you to tell me where women have it hard. If you're going to point out the differences of wage gap or the unequal amount of women to men at a work place, then I'm going to tell you you're wrong for several reasons.

Women, in the United States at least, usually don't go further in their education past high school. Therefor, most of them go to part time employment in order to have a stream of income to survive. The ones that do go to college are usually in non-STEM fields, such as Communications, which, if you look at it, is a very good choice of study considering the amount of possible careers you could have. That's why you see a lot of women in ad agencies high on the corporate ladder. By then, they've got a career, have worked for a few years, and many decide to marry, have children, and then settle down to take care of the children.

Economically, any woman has the same opportunities available to them as men as long as they work hard and make their way up the ladder. The fact that men work more and are more often found in the workplace is because they have different life goals than women. Most men, in the United States at least, want to be able to show others that they are capable, independent, and, when the time comes, able to provide for a family.

This has been the tenant of history: Men are hunter-gatherers, women are home makers. Does that necessarily mean women HAVE to stay at home and clean, cook, and take the kids to school? No, not at all. It also doesn't mean that men have to be the primary earner in any household. It's all based on priorities, life goals, and personal relationships that determine who has an advantage in a free market system.

To get to the OP, I would say that girls only have it "harder" when it comes to biological means. I have major respect for my girlfriend having to take care of her body, deal with a bleeding orifice once every 28 days, go through hormonal mood swings, and still have the energy to work an 8 hour shift as a housekeeper at a mall. I don't think men should complain about anything when it comes to taking care of our bodies and making sure we're presentable.

Both genders definitely have it hard in terms of society. Men are usually expected to have stiff upper lips, never show emotion, and be these strong, burly creatures that can kill at any moment. Women are expected to be very...uppity (for lack of a better word), high class, and act differently from men in terms of appearance and attitude. If you want to nitpick certainties, I would say men have it harder when it comes to dealing with the law. Women are generally given many benefits of doubt in divorce, domestic abuse and child support/custody cases.

[Kahn]

I like to think that, in spite of gender, we all tend to go through some pretty hard times, whatever the context may be.

[Melodic]

Health wise, girls have it harder.

I do believe girls have it rough in life. Yes. Do I believe the situations us girls face are often blown off? Of course. Do I think guys have an easy lifestyle? No. I think in general, we all have problems of our own. Some worse than others. I think it's time we stop debating who has it rougher and start fixing the problems we all face.

[Vlerchan]

I believe woman tend to have it harder.

---

I'll also make a proper response to Aisle of Plenty's post when I get a chance. It'll probably be tomorrow. For now though I ask:

Why do woman make the choices that woman do?
If we can determine that woman are socialised different and through this placed at a disadvantage relative to men (re: outcomes) can we claim that equal opportunities really exist?

I'm using "man" and "woman" to refer to the aggregate here. The second question also presumes the correct answer to the first is known. I just decided I wouldn't drag it out.

[Kahn]

I believe woman tend to have it harder.


Why?

I feel its difficult to take half of the human population and say that the entirety of that half will have it harder than the opposite half at the onset of their lives, for the entirety of their lives. An individual's circumstance varies. There are unique opportunities offered, exclusive events experienced, and specific situations posed for both genders, and the fulfillment one derives from those is completely subjective, be it a broken slave or Prime Minister Merkel.

[Living For Love]

I think it's a bit silly when women say "Oh, we have to deal with periods!" considering there are much more dangerous and serious situations that are more prone to happen to women than to men, such as sexual abuse, not to mention women are still less paid than men for the same amount of work in some countries.

On the other hand, men also have to deal with really uncomfortable situations. Like Lovelife090994 said, men are not allowed to show their emotions or cry in public without being called "weak" or "pussy", men who act more femininely or who seem to care a lot about their appearance are made fun of and automatically have their masculinity questioned. While it's simply not acceptable, in most of the countries, for a man to hit a women, if the contrary happens, people usually laugh at the situation and joke about it. Boys are also much easier to bully than girls. So, I honestly don't think woman have it harder, I think men and women are pretty equal when it comes to this issue.

[Katie96xox]

Neither has it harder. Perhaps 120 years ago women had it harder but we're in the 21st century and, despite some of the carry on you hear, there is gender equality. A lot of challenges women face are also faced by men and for every challenge that it unique to women there is a challenge unique to men.

[TomTougher]

Biologically, girls.

Economically, girls.

Socially, girls.

One of the only advantages I can think of to being a girl is that you usually don't have a piece of your genitalia cut off at birth for no reason. And that's not even true in several Muslim countries.

Like I said, to accurately make that statement you would have to know just how hard every girl in the world has it and just how hard every boy in the world has it.

[amgb]

A lot of challenges women face are also faced by men and for every challenge that it unique to women there is a challenge unique to men.

Exactly what I wanted to say. Both boys and girls/men and women can have similar challenges and problems in life. It depends on each individual, not if you're a guy or a girl.

[fairmaiden]

Both have to deal with different things, so I'm not sure if its possible to say that one gender has it harder than the other.

[Vlerchan]

I feel its difficult to take half of the human population and say that the entirety of that half will have it harder than the opposite half at the onset of their lives, for the entirety of their lives. An individual's circumstance varies.
The "tend" disqualifier in the post you quoted was important.

I don't think all woman have it harder than all men. That would be ridiculous. Numerous other factors affect a person's outcomes. But I do think that woman are at a disadvantage as a result of being woman. This is because societies socialise men and woman to act in a different manner and I feel that this differential socialisation produces a situation where woman are worse off. I think we can then determine the impact of this differential socialisation through a comparative application of statistics.

Here's something I wrote previous with reference to the gender pay-gap.

I believe that we take in information through our sense organs, process it in our brains and then base our actions (inc. thoughts and dreams) on this information in a dot-to-dot, deterministic fashion. I don't believe that thoughts can emerge spontaneously from within because literally nothing supports this. If you believe as I do, that our actions are reactions to external stimuli, then it becomes impossible to deny the massive role that society plays in shaping our thoughts (dreams, ambitions, actions, etc.). In order to prove that society then does have a role on where people end up you just need look to employment figures for each sector.

Eg:

Women in STEM fields are often underrepresented, holding less than 25% of the jobs in the U.S. and 13% in the UK (2012). In the United States, studies have been conducted to explain this pattern, such as mechanisms in recruitment and hiring processes. On average, women in STEM fields earn 33% more than those in non-STEM professions. They also experience a smaller wage gap compared to men. However, women can be found as leaders in top professions around the country. These include the U.S. Department of Defense, NASA, and the National Science Foundation (NSF).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields#Women

From the above it can be drawn that men are socialised into skills, interest, etc. that make them more likely to engage in STEM employment. Because socialisation is natural to residing in any society I can safely say that the current turn of events is societies fault.

Looking back STEM jobs is probably a bad example. There's legitimate genetic concerns there. Though I believe that from a young age males just have more exposure to things which build spatial awareness - building blocks and video games (etc.). I'm sure the point shines through though: I think STEM jobs are easier for people with a more masculine-orientation and that is why there is more men in STEM jobs.

The above reasoning is why I dismiss claims by people like Aisles of Plenty that the pay gap is a result of choices - even though post-feminists can't reduce it below 5 - 7% (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-08-13/don-t-blame-discrimination-for-gender-wage-gap). I think differential socialisation in terms of employment preferences results in vertical segregation - a situation where men and woman find themselves in different jobs paying different wages, to the benefit of men - and horizontal segregation - a situation where woman find themselves prioritising things other than their jobs and thus ending up in lower positions (part-time work, non-advancement etc.), also to the benefit of men. There's then other factors like woman being poorer on average at negotiating wage - the empirical basis for this is shaky but it's probably true to some extent. I put this down as societies influencing woman to make choices like this.

In terms of social equality I see it as more mixed. I think though that the issues faced by men are just the other side of the coin as to the issues faced by woman: woman are more likely to be abused because men are socialised to be more dominant but men's need to upkeep their own dominance results in them being afflicted with higher levels of depression (etc.) (- I also realise that higher levels of testosterone fuels a desire for social dominance but how this manifests itself is determined by context.) I think this boils back to the economic case though. It's males more masculine personalities that grant them higher wage positions - holding masculine traits are especially important in the world of business and politics. It's just the leakage of this from the economic sphere that we see in the private sphere.

---

I'm actually going to count this as my response to Aisles of Plenty. It got a lot longer than I intended.

Despite that it's not particularly indepth. Feel free to highlight a point and I can keep expanding.

There are unique opportunities offered, exclusive events experienced, and specific situations posed for both genders, and the fulfillment one derives from those is completely subjective, be it a broken slave or Prime Minister Merkel.
I get this (I think). I think though that in order to have a meaningful discussion about any phenomenon we need to set a standard.

I like to focus on economic statistics because I like economics. It's also difficult to argue that woman like being poor and dependent.

[sunnieseason]

Women are still not payed equally across the board, hold a fraction of the number of government jobs as compared to men, and are generally used more often in sex appeal-based marketing than men are. Women are "legally" equal to men, but it does not quite appear to be that way in reality. I'm not going as far as to say that all women "have it hard", because that's just not true, but I think society definitely favors men, to this day.



If you actually believe that then I feel bad for you when you start to enter the real world. Good looks can help you in some ways, but will honestly just end up getting you played and used if you're trying to use them for that kind of benefit.

The concept that women make less than men for the same jobs is not true at all. When you compare women to men in the same jobs then the pay is pretty equal, however if you look at the entirety of men vs women then there is a so-called gender gap. It comes down to the fact that women choose jobs that pay less such as teaching, social workers, etc. Men generally go for jobs that pay more such as stuff in science and engineering jobs, or generally take on more dangerous jobs with high pay such as crab fishing.

Also, attractive women do have a lot of power. Maybe you missed the LOL, but I wasn't being totally serious there.

[Babs]

Both have many issues, but I think women have it harder. ImCoolBeans summed up my thoughts accurately.

[Kahn]

The "tend" disqualifier in the post you quoted was important.

I don't think all woman have it harder than all men. That would be ridiculous. Numerous other factors affect a person's outcomes. But I do think that woman are at a disadvantage as a result of being woman. This is because societies socialise men and woman to act in a different manner and I feel that this differential socialisation produces a situation where woman are worse off. I think we can then determine the impact of this differential socialisation through a comparative application of statistics.

Here's something I wrote previous with reference to the gender pay-gap.

I believe that we take in information through our sense organs, process it in our brains and then base our actions (inc. thoughts and dreams) on this information in a dot-to-dot, deterministic fashion. I don't believe that thoughts can emerge spontaneously from within because literally nothing supports this. If you believe as I do, that our actions are reactions to external stimuli, then it becomes impossible to deny the massive role that society plays in shaping our thoughts (dreams, ambitions, actions, etc.). In order to prove that society then does have a role on where people end up you just need look to employment figures for each sector.

Eg:

Women in STEM fields are often underrepresented, holding less than 25% of the jobs in the U.S. and 13% in the UK (2012). In the United States, studies have been conducted to explain this pattern, such as mechanisms in recruitment and hiring processes. On average, women in STEM fields earn 33% more than those in non-STEM professions. They also experience a smaller wage gap compared to men. However, women can be found as leaders in top professions around the country. These include the U.S. Department of Defense, NASA, and the National Science Foundation (NSF).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields#Women

From the above it can be drawn that men are socialised into skills, interest, etc. that make them more likely to engage in STEM employment. Because socialisation is natural to residing in any society I can safely say that the current turn of events is societies fault.

Looking back STEM jobs is probably a bad example. There's legitimate genetic concerns there. Though I believe that from a young age males just have more exposure to things which build spatial awareness - building blocks and video games (etc.). I'm sure the point shines through though: I think STEM jobs are easier for people with a more masculine-orientation and that is why there is more men in STEM jobs.

The above reasoning is why I dismiss claims by people like Aisles of Plenty that the pay gap is a result of choices - even though post-feminists can't reduce it below 5 - 7% (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-08-13/don-t-blame-discrimination-for-gender-wage-gap). I think differential socialisation in terms of employment preferences results in vertical segregation - a situation where men and woman find themselves in different jobs paying different wages, to the benefit of men - and horizontal segregation - a situation where woman find themselves prioritising things other than their jobs and thus ending up in lower positions (part-time work, non-advancement etc.), also to the benefit of men. There's then other factors like woman being poorer on average at negotiating wage - the empirical basis for this is shaky but it's probably true to some extent. I put this down as societies influencing woman to make choices like this.

In terms of social equality I see it as more mixed. I think though that the issues faced by men are just the other side of the coin as to the issues faced by woman: woman are more likely to be abused because men are socialised to be more dominant but men's need to upkeep their own dominance results in them being afflicted with higher levels of depression (etc.) (- I also realise that higher levels of testosterone fuels a desire for social dominance but how this manifests itself is determined by context.) I think this boils back to the economic case though. It's males more masculine personalities that grant them higher wage positions - holding masculine traits are especially important in the world of business and politics. It's just the leakage of this from the economic sphere that we see in the private sphere.

I can agree with the sentiments put forward in the context of economic statistic. In our society, and historically, women have had a harder time finding jobs and getting paid as much as their male counterparts.

My train of thought was more concerned with the purely individual perception of all of one's opportunities- be they economic or not- not specifically career opportunity for the entirety of the gender. I feel that some people, women or men, may not value pursuing STEM degrees or even high income lifestyles as much as you or I would. However, the comments you made on socialization I agree with- specifically;
This is because societies socialise men and woman to act in a different manner and I feel that this differential socialisation produces a situation where woman are worse off. I think we can then determine the impact of this differential socialisation through a comparative application of statistics.
Statistics are our best bet for an unbiased view of the situation, and in the context of economic statistic, there is an overbearing amount of evidence supporting the notion that men have been at an advantage in that spectrum of life throughout human history.

[ImCoolBeans]

The concept that women make less than men for the same jobs is not true at all. When you compare women to men in the same jobs then the pay is pretty equal, however if you look at the entirety of men vs women then there is a so-called gender gap. It comes down to the fact that women choose jobs that pay less such as teaching, social workers, etc. Men generally go for jobs that pay more such as stuff in science and engineering jobs, or generally take on more dangerous jobs with high pay such as crab fishing.


It's not a concept. It's a fact. Not sure where you're getting your info from, but I'd like to see a source.
In 2013, female full-time workers made only 78 cents for every dollar earned by men, a gender wage gap of 22 percent. Women, on average, earn less than men in virtually every single occupation for which there is sufficient earnings data for both men and women to calculate an earnings ratio.
- See more at: http://www.iwpr.org/initiatives/pay-equity-and-discrimination#sthash.37NEa2Et.dpuf

Barack Obama ad says women are paid "77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men"
Source: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/

High-achieving women are paid less than men even when they have similar levels of experience and are in the same fields, according to new Bloomberg Businessweek data. Women graduating business school this year reported an average of $14,548 less in expected annual pay than men, graduating MBAs said in a survey of 9,965 students at 112 schools, conducted as part of our recently published biennial ranking of MBA programs.
Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-11-14/women-make-less-than-men-even-when-they-are-equally-qualified-mbas

Those are pretty reputable sites, namely bloomberg.com. I'm not talking about different fields of work, I'm talking about men and women in the same field of work. Of course you can't compare women working as teachers to men working as year-round crab fishermen working insane amounts of overtime -- and when people talk about the gender gap, they're talking about the same thing.

It even holds true for high ranking government jobs.
For all House staff, women made on average $5,862.56 less annually than men. Although that may sound like a lot, compared with the national average it's actually quite an improvement. In the House, women on the whole made about 90 cents on the dollar compared with men. The national average for 2010 was 77 cents on the dollar. The salaries: Female House staff made $56,671.15; male House staff made $62,533.71.
Source: http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress-legacy/how-congressional-republicans-and-democrats-pay-women-20120711

[Vlerchan]

I feel that some people, women or men, may not value pursuing STEM degrees or even high income lifestyles as much as you or I would.
As someone who isn't too concerned with ever achieving a high income lifestyle, I understand where you're coming from.

I just find myself concerned that the attitude is more prevalent among woman than men, seeing that economic power assuredly works as something to grant them more autonomy over their lives. So whilst I accept you're always going to get odd people like me I think significant divides between men and woman do raise a point for question.

sunnieseason, I'd suggest you read the post(s) I made, but then I presume your individual fetishism makes you immune to my society-centric critiques?

[Kahn]

I just find myself concerned that the attitude is more prevalent among woman than men, seeing that economic power assuredly works as something to grant them more autonomy over their lives. So whilst I accept you're always going to get odd people like me I think significant divides between men and woman do raise a point for question.


I agree wholeheartedly.

[That's the Spirit]

Neither has it harder. Perhaps 120 years ago women had it harder but we're in the 21st century and, despite some of the carry on you hear, there is gender equality. A lot of challenges women face are also faced by men and for every challenge that it unique to women there is a challenge unique to men.

I think you are only looking at the West when you say 120 years.

Look at Saudi Arabia, where women are not even allowed to drive, where they have different and arguably harsher laws and punishments.

It comes down to the fact that women choose jobs that pay less such as teaching, social workers, etc. Men generally go for jobs that pay more such as stuff in science and engineering jobs, or generally take on more dangerous jobs with high pay such as crab fishing.


I agree, girls also get it harder in the fact they are judged more in school and may have doubts about their interests in fear that it's going against the crowd.

Double Post merged. Please use the multi-quote function.

-HN

[sunnieseason]

I do find it interesting how many guys here are saying that women have it harder.

[Vlerchan]

Obviously in it for the sex? (http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/011/869/internet_white_knight_colored_4350.jpg)

[That's the Spirit]

I do find it interesting how many guys here are saying that women have it harder.

I know...
The things that trouble guys can just be shrugged off if the person just gets on with it but it's not the case with girl's problems IMO.

[TomTougher]

The concept that women make less than men for the same jobs is not true at all. When you compare women to men in the same jobs then the pay is pretty equal, however if you look at the entirety of men vs women then there is a so-called gender gap. It comes down to the fact that women choose jobs that pay less such as teaching, social workers, etc. Men generally go for jobs that pay more such as stuff in science and engineering jobs, or generally take on more dangerous jobs with high pay such as crab fishing.

Also, attractive women do have a lot of power. Maybe you missed the LOL, but I wasn't being totally serious there.

Not necessarily, today there are lots of women that become doctors, one of the highest paying jobs, and there are more and more women that are going into that field.

I would also like to point out that some of the advantages that men had that might've made life easier aren't such advantages today. Men tend to have the advantage of greater physical strength and that might've made life much easier for them in the old days when everything was done through physical labor, but today we have machines to do all the physical work for us so its not much of an advantage anymore.


Merged Double Post -Steven

[sunnieseason]

Not necessarily, today there are lots of women that become doctors, one of the highest paying jobs, and there are more and more women that are going into that field.

I know, I said that when you compare men and women in the same career they tend to make the same amounts. But compare a male doctor to a female teacher and there is a huge disparity.

My point was that feminists like to use the unequal comparison to their advantage by claiming that women make 30% less than men. They like to use it to show that men are keeping women down, but the statistic is being used wrong.

If it were true that women were cheaper than me, businesses would hire more women. If I could get 2 women for the price of one man then I could get twice as much work done and would become richer. Of course this would mean that more women would be hired and eventually there would be competition for their wages which would even out the playing field.

[Karkat]

I don't see why it should matter. Both have difficulties that they face, and honestly, unless you're wealthy, attractive, in a position of power, charmed, well-loved, and the majority in every sense possible... You'll face a lot of hardship, or you at very least have the potential to.

And even then. No one is safe from sickness, or natural disaster, or chance.

[Vlerchan]

My point was that feminists like to use the unequal comparison to their advantage by claiming that women make 30% less than men. They like to use it to show that men are keeping women down, but the statistic is being used wrong.
I addressed this in the post(s) I made.

I'm fine with you ignoring these posts. But I'm leaving this response here for all the users who just skim threads.

If it were true that women were cheaper than me, businesses would hire more women. If I could get 2 women for the price of one man then I could get twice as much work done and would become richer. Of course this would mean that more women would be hired and eventually there would be competition for their wages which would even out the playing field.
This argument presumes perfect competition.

In the real world firms don't need to operate at their most efficient for a host of reasons.

edit: I will in fact explain:

The firm has a degree of monopoly power through barriers to entry existing.
The firm operates with excess capacity.

Here's the model under consideration:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Long-run_equilibrium_of_the_firm_under_monopolistic_competition.JPG/450px-Long-run_equilibrium_of_the_firm_under_monopolistic_competition.JPG

If the firm was operating at its most efficient then the AR curve would cut the LRAC curve at its lowest point. This doesn't happen for the reasons cited above. It's even more distorted once government intervention is considered.

---

I'm also not going to bother explaining the more extreme dynamics featured under oligopolies where supernormal profits are earned in the long-run and labour operates in oligopsonistic conditions. I can if you want. But I'm tired so it won't be until tomorrow afternoon at the earliest.

[Babs]

I do find it interesting how many guys here are saying that women have it harder.

Perhaps because they're looking at it from an unbiased point of view.
And, you know, just about every single one of them who replied to your posts had sources. Those studies are definitely something to look at.

[Aajj333]

Transgendered people

[sunnieseason]

I am ignoring your posts Vlerchan :D

[lyhom]

I am ignoring your posts Vlerchan :D

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/014/745/139035361828.png

Anyways, to talk about the actual topic... you know what, Karkat's post summed up my thoughts perfectly.

[Stephan]

Easy.

Both.

[Babs]

I am ignoring your posts Vlerchan :D

Because, in a debate, the only sure-fire way to prove your point is to blatantly ignore the opposing arguments (which include various studies whereas yours conveniently does not) and cling to your original assumption, right?

Honestly.

[Vlerchan]

Because, in a debate, the only sure-fire way to prove your point is to blatantly ignore the opposing arguments (which include various studies whereas yours conveniently does not) and cling to your original assumption, right?
I posted a link that goes far in substantiating sunnieseason's point in the long post I made - and then proceeded to disagree with it.

Her original point is largely correct.

[Karkat]

Transgendered people

Good answer.

[Hideous]

I'd say both.

[Excalibur]

Both have it pretty hard, but I'd have to go with the girls on this one. Pregnancy, childbirth, periods, etc. are kinda hard to beat in terms of who has it harder. But I feel really bad for Transgenders...

[TomTougher]

I know, I said that when you compare men and women in the same career they tend to make the same amounts. But compare a male doctor to a female teacher and there is a huge disparity.

Sure there is, because a doctor gets paid much more than a teacher. Compare a male doctor with a female doctor, however, and there might not be much disparity, if any.

[Babs]

I posted a link that goes far in substantiating sunnieseason's point in the long post I made - and then proceeded to disagree with it.

Her original point is largely correct.

I'm not necessarily disputing her point in that particular post.
The point of that post was that I think blatantly ignoring anyone who disagrees in a debate forum is a sorry approach.

[sunnieseason]

I posted a link that goes far in substantiating sunnieseason's point in the long post I made - and then proceeded to disagree with it.

Her original point is largely correct.

Do you just disagree with me to be a contrarian? I'm confused :confused:

[Vlerchan]

Do you just disagree with me to be a contrarian? I'm confused :confused:
Even accounting for all you mentioned there's still ~5℅ of the wage gap unexplained. I would imagine at least a portion of that is discrimination.

I know ImCoolBeans has mentioned here in the past about how woman in his workplace are paid less per hour.

[Akatosh]

Neither gender has it easier; both have expectations to live up to and molds they are expected to fill. I am assuming you're talking about who has it harder in the west, otherwise obviously women would have it harder.

Women are discouraged from taking leadership positions, shamed for having more sex than people would like, and are less likely to be hired than equal men for most positions. (If anyone's interested, I can grab a link for that. There was an illuminating study done on the phenomenon.)

Men are shamed for asking for help, showing their emotions, or generally not being in a leadership position 24/7. Men are seen as perpetrators, not victims, especially when it comes to rape and domestic violence: even some domestic violence and rape support centers will turn away male victims. I have seen that happen to a family member very close to me, so I'm quite sensitive to male issues. Longer prison sentences, lower likelihood to succeed in family court, etc.

The thing is, all these detriments stem from the same. The same prejudice that assumes women won't be good at a high powered job gives them lenience in the court of law because they too are assumed not to be capable of crime. The same prejudice that insists men must not show emotions gives them the advantage of having their word trusted as rational and logical, whereas women are oft mistrusted for being "too emotional" (eg. "there can't be a woman president, she'll be crazy one week every month!")

[sunnieseason]

Even accounting for all you mentioned there's still ~5℅ of the wage gap unexplained. I would imagine at least a portion of that is discrimination.

I know ImCoolBeans has mentioned here in the past about how woman in his workplace are paid less per hour.


There are other factors too...like the likelihood that a younger woman will have children and will leave a job at some point. However the statistics aren't accurate because they don't really compare the same things.

I'm at the age where everyone wants to make fun of me for being into philosophy and intelligent things, but I can't really say that men are keeping me down. Pretty much all of the sexism I have experienced comes from other girls. Not a single boy I know has ever made fun of me for being smart, not a single male teacher has ever discouraged me from learning, not a single boy I know tells me that I can't do something because I'm a girl. However, other girls have.

I'm too young to have a job (except working for family). But I will let you know as I get older how people pay me.

[Vlerchan]

There are other factors too...like the likelihood that a younger woman will have children and will leave a job at some point.
I agree there's other factors. Woman tend to be worse negotiators is one. Men tend to be located in employment with higher union representation is another. However considering the historic levels of sex discrimination in employment I don't think it's far-fetched to claim that some might be down to that.

The woman in the example you offered also wouldn't be considered in wage-gap statistics at all. It just covers full-time working males and females.

However the statistics aren't accurate because they don't really compare the same things.
No. The statistics aren't accurate for how Liberal Feminists want to employ them.

However there's still value in them. The value is considered in earlier posts in this thread.

I'm at the age where everyone wants to make fun of me for being into philosophy and intelligent things, but I can't really say that men are keeping me down. Pretty much all of the sexism I have experienced comes from other girls. Not a single boy I know has ever made fun of me for being smart, not a single male teacher has ever discouraged me from learning, not a single boy I know tells me that I can't do something because I'm a girl. However, other girls have.
Sure. I never claimed that men were always the ones to reinforce gender roles and stereotypes.

In my experience it was males who most commonly reinforced male gender roles and stereotypes.

I think what's important to consider though is the amount of girls who will never develop an interest in "intelligent things" like politics because our respective societies have created a situation where its considered an unwomanly subject or whatever. You can mark down all the girls that ever gave you a hard time to start - though it goes far beyond that.

[sunnieseason]

I think what's important to consider though is the amount of girls who will never develop an interest in "intelligent things" like politics because our respective societies have created a situation where its considered an unwomanly subject or whatever. You can mark down all the girls that ever gave you a hard time to start - though it goes far beyond that.

I agree, its hard finding other girls to be friends with. I think one of the reasons why I'm into more intelligent things is that I have a strong male role model who encourages me to try more challenging mental things. He's also a single dad who raised two daughters (my cousins) who are extremely intelligent too. I think that has a lot to do with it. My oldest cousin is studying marine biology in college and she's a math genius.

I also think that I'm still very feminine despite being into philosophy and politics.

[dirtyboxer55]

both have their own problems and no gender really has it harder, but some people are misled to think that women have it harder because they complain so much. :)

[Stronk Serb]

Boys have it harder especially in puberty :lol: :lol: :lol:
Jokes aside it truly depends. I don't want to declare myself as a feminist but I'm all for gender equality.

[Babs]

Boys have it harder especially in puberty :lol: :lol: :lol:
Jokes aside it truly depends. I don't want to declare myself as a feminist but I'm all for gender equality.

Can I ask why you don't want to declare yourself a feminist despite being for gender equality? The two things are pretty much synonymous.

[Stronk Serb]

Can I ask why you don't want to declare yourself a feminist despite being for gender equality? The two things are pretty much synonymous.

In the ranks of feminists you have those who are like me, equal treatment for all, and then you have the "feminazis" who are all like 'women uber alles". That's why I'm hesitant to declare myself as one. But you can say that I'm the same thing, different package.

[Elvalight]

Women.
Obviously, I cannot determine the things every individual will face in their lives, but if it comes to gender, women have always had it harder. It's not exactly a badge, or something men should feel the need to fight for, rather something to be acknowledged.
While I might say men have it equally hard, since society expects them to be masculine and not like anything that people deem "girly", to not cry or show many signs of weakness and, for some reason, it seems people have a harder time accepting gay men than women. However, in order for humanity to continue, women have to give birth. Not all women do, but women must, as a whole, reproduce and create more humans.
Periods, while not the worst thing in the world, can make some people feel dizzy because of blood loss. It can, coming from first hand experience, feel like you are being stabbed repeatedly in the lower stomach. I consider it one of the lesser evils, though.
And the worst part, I'd have to say, is sexual abuse that many women have faced throughout the ages. Rape isn't exactly rare. It does happen to men, and it is not any less relevant, but women have had quite a history of it. It doesn't help that people usually blame the victims of it, using excuses like "she was asking for it" or something like that. Men may be afraid of "what happens in prisons", while women are afraid of going outside alone.
While I know both men and women have equally hard problems, the gender that has faced the worst things is female. Nothing good about it :/

[dirtyboxer55]

Women.
Obviously, I cannot determine the things every individual will face in their lives, but if it comes to gender, women have always had it harder. It's not exactly a badge, or something men should feel the need to fight for, rather something to be acknowledged.
While I might say men have it equally hard, since society expects them to be masculine and not like anything that people deem "girly", to not cry or show many signs of weakness and, for some reason, it seems people have a harder time accepting gay men than women. However, in order for humanity to continue, women have to give birth. Not all women do, but women must, as a whole, reproduce and create more humans.
Periods, while not the worst thing in the world, can make some people feel dizzy because of blood loss. It can, coming from first hand experience, feel like you are being stabbed repeatedly in the lower stomach. I consider it one of the lesser evils, though.
And the worst part, I'd have to say, is sexual abuse that many women have faced throughout the ages. Rape isn't exactly rare. It does happen to men, and it is not any less relevant, but women have had quite a history of it. It doesn't help that people usually blame the victims of it, using excuses like "she was asking for it" or something like that. Men may be afraid of "what happens in prisons", while women are afraid of going outside alone.
While I know both men and women have equally hard problems, the gender that has faced the worst things is female. Nothing good about it :/


http://americanpowderhorns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Revolutionary-War.jpg
http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/film/omaha.jpg
http://s.ngm.com/2006/12/iraq-medicine/img/wounded-helicopter-615.jpg

[Babs]

image (http://americanpowderhorns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Revolutionary-War.jpg)
image (http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/film/omaha.jpg)
image (http://s.ngm.com/2006/12/iraq-medicine/img/wounded-helicopter-615.jpg)

You know why only men are in these photos?
It's because women weren't allowed to fight in wars because they weren't considered capable of being anything but mothers and wives. Women couldn't have bank accounts, vote, own property, et cetera.

[dirtyboxer55]

You know why only men are in these photos?
It's because women weren't allowed to fight in wars because they weren't considered capable of being anything but mothers and wives. Women couldn't have bank accounts, vote, own property, et cetera.

yeah really mustve sucked for them, they never got to play the draft lottery :lol:

[Babs]

yeah really mustve sucked for them, they never got to play the draft lottery :lol:

The draft in general is terrible, I'm not disputing that. The point is, the reason women weren't drafted is not because they were favored.

[dirtyboxer55]

The draft in general is terrible, I'm not disputing that. The point is, the reason women weren't drafted is not because they were favored.

do you think its worse for them to not be favored in society or be taken away from their families and forced to kill people for a cause they may or may not believe in?

[Babs]

do you think its worse for them to not be favored in society or be taken away from their families and forced to kill people for a cause they may or may not believe in?

The entire thing is a false equivalence. Elvalight made very good points and to respond to that with those photos doesn't change that. To say "well, you guys might be treated as baby machines rather than people, have your entire sex subjugated for centuries, and had little more rights than a child, but men fought in wars so the marginalization of women didnt matter amirite?" is a poor argument.

[dirtyboxer55]

The entire thing is a false equivalence. Elvalight made very good points and to respond to that with those photos doesn't change that. To say "well, you guys might be treated as baby machines rather than people, have your entire sex subjugated for centuries, and had little more rights than a child, but men fought in wars so the marginalization of women didnt matter amirite?" is a poor argument.

hmm lets see whats worse, being treated like a child, or having to kill or die? see to my original post how women just complain to much about everything :lol:

[Vlerchan]

It was men who chose to disqualify woman from the draft.

It's hilarious to see people bitching about that in retrospect.

---

Please note in the US woman are now eligible for the draft.

[bskaoalncnfjd]

well, obviously boys. bu dum tss :D

[Triceratops]

Even in this day and age women have it a lot more difficult than men do. Women are still fighting for equality because we are still being treated and valued differently. We are still perceived as weaker, less capable, less intelligent and less powerful when it is absolutely not the case for so many of us. I could be physically stronger and far more capable at performing a wide range of certain tasks than many, many men but this would be dismissed because the society still holds ignorant, unfair and inaccurate patriarchal views.

At present, men still get paid more than women, men are more likely to have a higher status in the work place, society reinforces the ideology that men are more dominant than women, men are far less likely to be sexually assaulted as women constantly live in fear of being raped when they walk alone in the street due to us always being seen as "victims", along with the additional disadvantage that women are very often seen as sex objects (often assisted by the media) as their bodies tend to be more sexualised, or even degraded, than a male body is. Furthermore this is making it more likely that many men carry the mindset that males are entitled to a female body regardless of her consent.

Stereotypical social constructions and misrepresentations of females shaped by the patriarchy make it a daily battle to be able to achieve equality of the sexes. Being a female IS more difficult when your qualities, abilities and opportunities are easily disregarded just because of your gender. Gender inequality IS still such a massive problem and it strongly needs addressing.

EDIT: I've just seen the collection of images dirtyboxer55 has posted. I can assure you I would find hundreds of shocking, disturbing images of the mistreatment of women and some of the horrific ordeals women have faced if you really want to go down that route. But we would be here all day.

[Babs]

hmm lets see whats worse, being treated like a child, or having to kill or die? see to my original post how women just complain to much about everything :lol:

It's not just being treated like a child. But you know that. I know how much you love to straw-man everyone's point.
Those were just broad examples of what women endured up until recent history.
A few more specific examples are:
Men raping their wives and nothing could be done about it.
Women in labor were not allowed anesthesia when it was first invented.
Men could send their wives to mental institutions for ridiculous reasons where they underwent harmful therapy methods.
All of which are filed under "subjugation of the female gender" and "little more rights than a child", as was stated in my above post. It's not just being treated like a child, like being told what to eat and when, or afternoon naps. It was serious, life-changing decisions made on the behalf of women, made by men.
To reiterate Vlerchan, the decision to exclude women from the military was also made by, you guessed it, men.

[VermillionRoses]

I think everyone has it hard in different ways. It's not a battle over who has it worse.

[dirtyboxer55]

It's not just being treated like a child. But you know that. I know how much you love to straw-man everyone's point.
Those were just broad examples of what women endured up until recent history.
A few more specific examples are:
Men raping their wives and nothing could be done about it.
Women in labor were not allowed anesthesia when it was first invented.
Men could send their wives to mental institutions for ridiculous reasons where they underwent harmful therapy methods.
All of which are filed under "subjugation of the female gender" and "little more rights than a child", as was stated in my above post. It's not just being treated like a child, like being told what to eat and when, or afternoon naps. It was serious, life-changing decisions made on the behalf of women, made by men.
To reiterate Vlerchan, the decision to exclude women from the military was also made by, you guessed it, men.

Yeah I guess you're right :)

[CoolGuy108]

The challenges are different. In every circumstance.
Men have a harder time with money, everything costs more for us, from Medicare to retirement plans to simple insurance. for example

[Phosphene]

The challenges are different. In every circumstance.
Men have a harder time with money, everything costs more for us, from Medicare to retirement plans to simple insurance. for example

Please don't post in threads that have been inactive for two months or more :locked: