Obama Tyranny and Illegals

[MercenaryMarksman]

The fact that our president has given the finger to congress is friegtening and he's also allowing 5 million illegals stay here for God knows
what reason. Just a week ago I couldn't get a job at my local diner because the boss there had hired illegals to do it cheaper. This angers me because people are always complaining about jobs and what not and there's one of the problems right there and the president is oblivious to it. What do you think needs to be done about this issue? Will there be more crime? Will there be more drugs, guns etc? (Im not against guns at all but no drugs!)

[Karkat]

At least they aren't introducing foreign deadly diseases that wipe out half the population and forcing us into camps.

Just a thought.

[MercenaryMarksman]

At least they aren't introducing foreign deadly diseases that wipe out half the population and forcing us into camps.

Just a thought.

I suppose your right. It's still unfair to real Americans and we can't make them leave ourselves.

[Typhlosion]

I have deleted posts containing both off-topic discussion and personal insults. Please note that the latter will not be tolerated on the site and will not be dealt with as lightly the next time. The Ramblings of the Wise forum is for debates and opinions only.

If this behavior continues, the thread will be locked.

[Karkat]

It's very apparent to me that you're anti-lower class as well as outrageously prejudiced. And I genuinely don't know what to say about that.

I mean, damn. I get that you probably have no idea what it's like to live in a place ruled by drug cartels, or want to be able to protect and provide for a family.

I get that you probably have no idea what it's like to struggle to make enough to feed a child, or multiple ones; or what it feels like to not know where your next meal is coming from; or where you'll sleep that night; or hell, what it feels like to be too poor to wear clothes that aren't threadbare, old, or otherwise freight-damaged.

And you probably don't know what it's like to have to pay out hundreds, and thousands, and tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills. Year. After. Year. With or without insurance.

I mean, I'm just going to assume that you're oblivious and not actually outright malevolent.

But back to the topic at hand. The modern-day American is just so spoiled- they think that if someone else gets something they feel entitled to, that person/group is a SCOURGE that must be dealt with.

That's just... No.

You live in a first world country. WITH A MINIMUM WAGE. AND RELATIVELY FAIR LABOR LAWS.

You live a comfortable life in a comfortable country as a TEENAGER with the OPTION of becoming employed- and not the requirement to acquire one to SURVIVE.

I know no other way to say this, but you're being ridiculous. And I am trying to be nice here.

That answer your question?

Oh, also, if we really want to get into how this country is losing money by harboring people who need a home- how about picking fights with other countries? How about political campaigning? How about those put in prison on drug charges, and other ridiculous offenses? How about the war on drugs? (ESPECIALLY marijuana- you want revenue? FUCKIN. REVENUE.) I could go on...

[Guillermo]

Illegal immigrants are doing much more good by staying here than sending them back to their country of origin. Deporting illegal immigrants is expensive (http://www.businessinsider.com/deporting-all-of-americas-illegal-immigrants-would-cost-a-whopping-285-billion-2012-1). Most illegal immigrants already pay local, state, and federal taxes (http://www.itep.org/immigration/). The "illegal immigrants take our jobs" argument is for the most part false. Illegal immigrants actually cause the economy to grow (http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/) with the jobs they take. Crime, and most notably violent crime, has actually decreased (http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/Clinics/Sampson_Immigration_Contexts.pdf) ever since vast amounts of illegal immigrants started coming to America in the 90s. That study also shows that native-born Americans actually commit more violent crimes than first generation Latinos. I really don't know where you were going by asking the question about whether or not there will be more drugs and guns. The quantity of guns and drugs are arguably a more internal issue rather than an external one.

[phuckphace]

it's mostly a political move because Hispanics vote overwhelmingly for the Democratic party, and their prolific breeding rates will ensure that the country experiences a Democratic stranglehold on politics for a long time.

Illegal immigrants are doing much more good by staying here than sending them back to their country of origin. Deporting illegal immigrants is expensive (http://www.businessinsider.com/deporting-all-of-americas-illegal-immigrants-would-cost-a-whopping-285-billion-2012-1).

I think it's rather fitting that a pro-immigration article would come from a publication like BusinessInsider, and even more so that the article is lying. we wouldn't actually need to deport all or even most illegals currently within our borders, as they have a tendency to self-deport en masse once the political climate changes and the money gets cut off. the fact that the bourgeoisie feel the need to lie and scare-monger in this manner really shows who's running this game.

Most illegal immigrants already pay local, state, and federal taxes (http://www.itep.org/immigration/).

THEY PAY TAXES! looks like it's settled then, silly me :lol3:

strangely, no mention in the article of the higher tax the rest of us are paying in the form of car insurance due to the large number of illegal Mexicans who drive illegally without insurance and cause hit-and-runs.

The "illegal immigrants take our jobs" argument is for the most part false. Illegal immigrants actually cause the economy to grow (http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/) with the jobs they take.

lmao 125 million more burger-flippers who produce redundant things that we need less of anyway, sounds like a strategy for success!

Crime, and most notably violent crime, has actually decreased (http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/Clinics/Sampson_Immigration_Contexts.pdf) ever since vast amounts of illegal immigrants started coming to America in the 90s.
That study also shows that native-born Americans actually commit more violent crimes than first generation Latinos.

this I'm going to assume was a joke entry.

one of the things pro-immigration people always conveniently omit is the demographic decline that inevitably occurs when an immigrant population pushes out the native one. the Left and the bourgeoisie are perfectly content with the average American being a squat, Spanish-speaking lumpenprole in the near future, but some of us aren't.

[Babs]

I suppose your right. It's still unfair to real Americans and we can't make them leave ourselves.

The "real" Americans.
The real Americans were the people here BEFORE Christopher Colombus, the Native Americans. Immigrants are just as much American as you and me. How do you think YOUR ancestors got here? From Europe, and the same way today's immigrants got here.
A little compassion for people who are just trying to make a better life would probably be in your best interest. Besides, you're not entitled to the job. Other people got it first, and you're no more deserving than they are.

[phuckphace]

Q: What happens when 10 people show up for the same job interview instead of 2?
A: 9 people go home unemployed instead of 1.

I also love how that article admitted that immigrants did in fact take most of the blue-collar jobs that were once filled by natives, which it seems to present as a good thing for some bizarre reason. what, are we supposed to be happy that increased competition for our most accessible jobs has raised the education requirements and made it more difficult to get a job to begin with? pro-tip: a lower-paying job is better than no job at all.

[fairmaiden]

I suppose your right. It's still unfair to real Americans and we can't make them leave ourselves.
Native Americans are the ''real Americans''.

[Miserabilia]

I don't get it, these things always sound like the american president has full controll over anything the government does

"the president this the president that"
aren't there others to blame?

[Kahn]

I don't get it, these things always sound like the american president has full controll over anything the government does

"the president this the president that"
aren't there others to blame?

Of course! There's Congress, and the Federal Reserve (private entity). The Supreme Court and the Federal Election Commission. Some people might blame DHS, others the border guard.

There's always enough blame to go around in Amerika!

In this particular case, the idea has been floating around for awhile. People seemed to believe that, at one point, Obama would use an executive order to grant amnesty to five million illegals currently living within our borders. The newly Republican Hill would never let the President use an executive order to meet this end, however, as they'd simply pass legislation that conflicts with it.

EDIT: I guess as of November 20th, he gave them "work permits", which gives them semi-legal status. I have no doubt in my mind that the conservative Congress will move swiftly to counteract it through legislation.

[Typhlosion]

The "real" Americans.
The real Americans were the people here BEFORE Christopher Colombus, the Native Americans. Immigrants are just as much American as you and me. How do you think YOUR ancestors got here? From Europe, and the same way today's immigrants got here.
A little compassion for people who are just trying to make a better life would probably be in your best interest. Besides, you're not entitled to the job. Other people got it first, and you're no more deserving than they are.
Native Americans are the ''real Americans''.

It's really silly if you think about it. Before the Native Americans there was just fauna, and they managed to kill a quite a bit of that off. Though you don't see environmentalists complaining about every single human that doesn't do good to nature.

You also don't see the English saying that the real English were the people before the Saxons which came before X and Y and South Africa complaining about the amount of white people residing there.

You also don't see people that claim "American Heritage" dismissing the blacks as non-americans. Well, at least today.

The U.S.A. has been like this for over, what, 400 years? And what complaining will do to you? Will you kick yourself off to your country of european heritage? Or just be an SJW?


It's just this thing that the internet loves to hate called "U.S.A.". It's incredible - just find one flaw in the U.S. and the internet will hate them for it. Be it...


Their denonym (because "America" is supposed to mean the whole continent)
Their obesity (despite Mexico being even fatter!)
Their debt (which is much less absurd than Japan's debt that's worth over twice their GDP)
Their people (because more often than not we laugh at our negative side in the media and that is often poked at) (but I agree that we're morally outdated)
Their policies and politics
Anything


I'm not going to say that people are jealous, but it's certainly a tiring thing to read over and over and over and over again.

-----------------------------

Be it good or bad, the U.S.A. definitely has its own culture and heritage. And the OP is referring to people that do not associate themselves with your culture. And that means a loss of culture and sense of nationality.

And I don't blame him either. Stop hating the U.S. and try getting an European citizenship. It ain't easy. At all. People dislike anything beyond their own ethnics. I've experienced this first-hand in Germany. Look at all the complaints we have or the freaking Muslims invading France and Germany. And you know why we sympathize? Because you all hate Muslims for this preconceived idea that they're barbaric terrorists.

[Karkat]

It's really silly if you think about it. Before the Native Americans there was just fauna, and they managed to kill a quite a bit of that off. Though you don't see environmentalists complaining about every single human that doesn't do good to nature.

You also don't see the English saying that the real English were the people before the Saxons which came before X and Y and South Africa complaining about the amount of white people residing there.

You also don't see people that claim "American Heritage" dismissing the blacks as non-americans. Well, at least today.

The U.S.A. has been like this for over, what, 400 years? And what complaining will do to you? Will you kick yourself off to your country of european heritage? Or just be an SJW?


It's just this thing that the internet loves to hate called "U.S.A.". It's incredible - just find one flaw in the U.S. and the internet will hate them for it. Be it...


Their denonym (because "America" is supposed to mean the whole continent)
Their obesity (despite Mexico being even fatter!)
Their debt (which is much less absurd than Japan's debt that's worth over twice their GDP)
Their people (because more often than not we laugh at our negative side in the media and that is often poked at) (but I agree that we're morally outdated)
Their policies and politics
Anything


I'm not going to say that people are jealous, but it's certainly a tiring thing to read over and over and over and over again.

-----------------------------

Be it good or bad, the U.S.A. definitely has its own culture and heritage. And the OP is referring to people that do not associate themselves with your culture. And that means a loss of culture and sense of nationality.

And I don't blame him either. Stop hating the U.S. and try getting an European citizenship. It ain't easy. At all. People dislike anything beyond their own ethnics. I've experienced this first-hand in Germany. Look at all the complaints we have or the freaking Muslims invading France and Germany. And you know why we sympathize? Because you all hate Muslims for this preconceived idea that they're barbaric terrorists.

I don't see those of English descent being on the verge of linguistic and cultural extinction, nor do I see how Native Americans could've survived WITHOUT the slaughter of local fauna.

And maybe I'm biased here, but it pretty much pisses me off when people whine about immigration because it sounds so idiotic. Once again, the problem with Americans is that they're a bunch of first world yuppies who act like the sky is falling on their heads when they don't get things exactly their way.

ESPECIALLY the upper classes. The lower class has reason to feel fear when they can't find a job. Teenagers who have to get jobs to help support a family have a right to complain when there's nothing left. When it's an option, you'd better thank your lucky stars that you have what you've got.

I mean, it's one thing to be disappointed. It's another thing to be melodramatic and unreasonable, and project your disappointment on a group you know nothing about.

IMO, OP needs to grow up a little, and learn how to handle disappointment better. IMO, there's no real debate here at all. But oh well, whatever, discussion about illegal immigration came up and my curiosity was piqued, what can I say?

Oh, and as an addendum, America really is to blame for a lot of things, however I do agree that it's a convenient scapegoat that just gives people an excuse to be jingoistic. Which is unfortunate.

[Vlerchan]

[W]e wouldn't actually need to deport all or even most illegals currently within our borders, as they have a tendency to self-deport en masse once the political climate changes and the money gets cut off.
I'm not sure what you mean here by "money cuts off".

---

BuisnessInsider also forgot to mention the important implicit cost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States#Consumer_demand) of deporting immigrants from the country. That is the massive reduction that's going to be incurred as far as aggregate demand is concerned: immigrants produce about 150 billion dollars of economic activity each year and their existence within the economy maintains about 8 million jobs.

Yeah. That is going to hurt.

[N]o mention in the article of the higher tax the rest of us are paying in the form of car insurance due to the large number of illegal Mexicans who drive illegally without insurance and cause hit-and-runs.
Yes. This is why I argue that voting (like Oregon recently) to bar illegal immigrants from obtaining drivers licences goes beyond stupid.

Like what do you even think you're gaining?

lmao 125 million more burger-flippers who produce redundant things that we need less of anyway, sounds like a strategy for success!
I suppose as long as we can all agree that how anti-immigration advocates think economics works isn't actually how economics works.

[O]ne of the things pro-immigration people always conveniently omit is the demographic decline that inevitably occurs when an immigrant population pushes out the native one.
One of the things you omit is empirical evidence supporting the idea that crowding-out actually occurs.

[T]he Left and the bourgeoisie are perfectly content with the average American being a squat, Spanish-speaking lumpenprole in the near future, but some of us aren't.
Why?

Q: What happens when 10 people show up for the same job interview instead of 2?
A: 9 people go home unemployed instead of 1.
And get jobs elsewhere.

Looking at actual statistics.

These are analysed in Sect. 4. We find small wage and employment impacts, even smaller than have been detected in previous metaanalytic research. A 1% point increase in the share of immigrants in a local labour market of the typical host country decreases wages of the native born by 0.029% (using a weighted average with weights determined by the precision of the estimates) and decreases employment of the native born by [a totally insignificant] 0.011%.

http://dare.ubvu.vu.nl/bitstream/handle/1871/19366/10.1007_s10109-010-0111-y.pdf;jsessionid=ECAF557CB0DC1AD907EC714F1961AFFD?sequence=1

---

The newly Republican Hill would never let the President use an executive order to meet this end, however, as they'd simply pass legislation that conflicts with it.
Do you expect Obama not to veto this new legislation?

[Kahn]

Do you expect Obama not to veto this new legislation?

Congress may overrule a veto with a supermajority vote. That is unlikely, as they'd need to get some democrats to support the measure, but it's not like it can't be done.

[Aajj333]

The fact that our president has given the finger to congress is friegtening and he's also allowing 5 million illegals stay here for God knows
what reason. Just a week ago I couldn't get a job at my local diner because the boss there had hired illegals to do it cheaper. This angers me because people are always complaining about jobs and what not and there's one of the problems right there and the president is oblivious to it. What do you think needs to be done about this issue? Will there be more crime? Will there be more drugs, guns etc? (Im not against guns at all but no drugs!)

Not everyone was born with the privileges you were born with. Send them back to wherever they came from and let them be raped and murdered by corrupt officials and gang leaders. No one deserves that. Sorry Obama doesn't just represent your demographic. By not supporting that, you are saying you are ok with 5 million (however you came up with that number) "illegals" to be raped or murdered.

[phuckphace]

I'm posting from my phone so sorry about not quoting. also, I see the OP got banned, what's up with that?

anyway, we don't give driver's licenses to illegals because at best it would solve nothing and at worst it would add further legitimization to the presence of people who have no business being here to begin with. even if we give them licenses they're sure as hell not going to pay $100+ a month for auto insurance. Mexican culture seems to have a noticeable rule-bending undercurrent to it in general (you can famously bribe Mexican police officers with cash to get out of most misdemeanors, I've been there myself and seen it happen firsthand). and of course all of that is going to be magnified tenfold when you're dealing with an out-group, which is us gringos in this case. if there's one term I could use to describe that interaction I would go with "mutually distrustful."

if I moved to a foreign country I would bend over backwards to avoid stepping on anyone's toes, and I most certainly wouldn't YOLO it up while breaking laws right and left because who cares, I don't know these gibberish-speaking weirdos anyway. it seems some have other ideas.

what I meant by "the money getting cut off" is the passage of laws that ban and criminalize the hiring of illegals or other non-citizens, and essentially make it impossible for all but the most highly integrated to obtain jobs.

[Vlerchan]

Congress may overrule a veto with a supermajority vote.
I didn't know this. Interesting. I guess it makes sense for it to exist though.

I'm probably a fair bit more doubtful about Republican's managing to convince enough Democrats to overturn Obama's veto anyway.

---

I see the OP got banned, what's up with that?
OP was pretty abusive in his last (deleted) post so I'd imagine that's why.

even if we give them licenses they're sure as hell not going to pay $100+ a month for auto insurance. Mexican culture seems to have a noticeable rule-bending undercurrent to it in general
I'd prefer some studies to stereotyping and anecdotal evidence.

and of course all of that is going to be magnified tenfold when you're dealing with an out-group, which is us gringos in this case.
Could I just have the logic behind this statement explained?

what I meant by "the money getting cut off" is the passage of laws that ban and criminalize the hiring of illegals or other non-citizens, and essentially make
Right. I agree that increasing the sentence for those who knowingly higher illegal immigrants would do as you say.

I'm not sure to what extent though. I guess if you placed some ridiculous sanctions on hiring illegal immigrants then it might have the desired effect.

---

I feel I should also add that I don't illegal immigration. Just so you know.

[thatcountrykid]

At least they aren't introducing foreign deadly diseases that wipe out half the population and forcing us into camps.

Just a thought.

Honesty now you can get mad at explorers for the disease. They ha no idea if there were even people here.

[Cpt_Cutter]

Ah, nothing like a bit of republican fear mongering to make me smile.

Obama's decision s actually very wise. Instead of spending hundreds of millions, likely billions, finding and deporting the illegals who've been there for decades in some cases (Paying taxes, mind you) who are just going to comer back first chance they get, he's just making them citizens, which saves time, money and effort on all parts. It enhances the local economies of the areas as the immigrants will no longer be afraid of being discovered spending what little money they have, and it allows them to aspire for higher paying jobs and a better quality of life, something YOU seem to forget.

But no, because they're *Illegals* then they're Satan spawn who are mooching off the awesomely superior US government and all need to be exterminated. /S.

Congress may overrule a veto with a supermajority vote. That is unlikely, as they'd need to get some democrats to support the measure, but it's not like it can't be done.

Really? I wasn't aware of this get-out-of-jail-free card. Has it been used before?

[Kahn]

Really? I wasn't aware of this get-out-of-jail-free card. Has it been used before?


It's never even been tried.

[Zenos]

It's very apparent to me that you're anti-lower class as well as outrageously prejudiced. And I genuinely don't know what to say about that.

I mean, damn. I get that you probably have no idea what it's like to live in a place ruled by drug cartels, or want to be able to protect and provide for a family.

I get that you probably have no idea what it's like to struggle to make enough to feed a child, or multiple ones; or what it feels like to not know where your next meal is coming from; or where you'll sleep that night; or hell, what it feels like to be too poor to wear clothes that aren't threadbare, old, or otherwise freight-damaged.

And you probably don't know what it's like to have to pay out hundreds, and thousands, and tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills. Year. After. Year. With or without insurance.

I mean, I'm just going to assume that you're oblivious and not actually outright malevolent.

( they are called Illegals because they are not citizens of this country and are here in violation of our laws and policys dealing with how to get here leagally,so stop the bleeding heart their struggling and if you don't want there here your a baaaad baaad person,when you know darn well is someone from south of Mexico's boarder was in Mexico against Mexican laws and this and illegal there they'd be shipped back to their home country in a heart beat,stop acting like we own them something)

But back to the topic at hand. The modern-day American is just so spoiled- they think that if someone else gets something they feel entitled to, that person/group is a SCOURGE that must be dealt with.

(WOW such generalizations and blanket statements,I couldn't care if someone has something I only wan't what I can buy with money earned by my own efforts)

That's just... No.

You live in a first world country. WITH A MINIMUM WAGE. AND RELATIVELY FAIR LABOR LAWS.

(LOL a FIRST WORLD NATION WITH THIRD WORLD PRICES ON FOOD and other PRODUCTS. I have had older people tell me about how when they where my age $100 dollors would buy enough food to fill the bed of a truck up, where $20.00 would buy just enough to put in a corner of the bed of a truck,now that same $100 will buy just enough food to put in the corner of a truck bed.)

You live a comfortable life in a comfortable country as a TEENAGER with the OPTION of becoming employed- and not the requirement to acquire one to SURVIVE.


( We live in a Comfortable nation where if a member of a minortity is killed they riot and jump assault innocent people all over what 1 or 2 people did,the Trayvon Martin case for example ,and where our cities are becoming mini- third would countries full of violence..Detriot for example)

I know no other way to say this, but you're being ridiculous. And I am trying to be nice here.

That answer your question?

Oh, also, if we really want to get into how this country is losing money by harboring people who need a home- how about picking fights with other countries? How about political campaigning?

How about those put in prison on drug charges, and other ridiculous offenses?

(Ok so my meth and selling using neighbors should not be put in prison on charges?)


How about the war on drugs? (ESPECIALLY marijuana- you want revenue? FUCKIN. REVENUE.) I could go on...

Your argument was bunk

[phuckphace]

Ah, nothing like a bit of republican fear mongering to make me smile.

The Republican Party is pro-immigration.

Obama's decision s actually very wise. Instead of spending hundreds of millions, likely billions finding and deporting the illegals who've been there for decades in some cases (Paying taxes, mind you) who are just going to comer back first chance they get, he's just making them citizens, which saves time, money and effort on all parts.

oh yes, Obama the fiscal watchdog. he's just trying to save us a little money!

illegals pay only the taxes that are unavoidable, such as sales tax, and the downsides of allowing them to stay in the country outweigh the nominal tax benefits. there are other criteria for good citizenship besides paying a (small) tax that everyone else pays too :lol3:

It enhances the local economies of the areas as the immigrants will no longer be afraid of being discovered spending what little money they have

you're double-counting the "they spend money!!!111!" bit. so what?

and it allows them to aspire for higher paying jobs and a better quality of life, something YOU seem to forget.

what makes you think this country has any obligation to provide jobs and housing for half of Mexico when it isn't even doing a tenth of that for its own citizens? countries aren't world charities and we have no moral obligation to import millions of surly lumpenproles who don't like us anyway.

But no, because they're *Illegals* then they're Satan spawn who are mooching off the awesomely superior US government and all need to be exterminated.

it's about votes for the Democratic Party and cheap labor for Big Business. progressives who believe it's some kind of humanitarian mission are useful idiots to the latter.

[Karkat]

Your argument was bunk

Your argument was so ludicrous I couldn't even take it seriously, so nice try. Ever heard of "inflation"? $100 made a shit ton back then because everyone was only getting paid $2 an hour.

And the fact that you argue that America is any way comparable to a third world country shows how oblivious you are anyways. Lmao.

[phuckphace]

I find it handy to keep this page (http://www.measuringworth.com/ppowerus/) bookmarked for whenever there's a discussion about relative prices/wages etc. it's far more detailed than a simple inflation calculator and gives you a better idea of how much money a given amount really was.

for example, in 1952 my grandpa paid $500 (nominal) dollars for 50 acres of property and a 2,500 sq ft. house. according to their calculations, that was $4,390 in real dollars (2013) and a labor value of $6,560. (it's now appraised at just over $1.8 million). once again, Fifties fuck yeah.

[Allbutanillusion]

The fact that our president has given the finger to congress is friegtening and he's also allowing 5 million illegals stay here for God knows
what reason. Just a week ago I couldn't get a job at my local diner because the boss there had hired illegals to do it cheaper. This angers me because people are always complaining about jobs and what not and there's one of the problems right there and the president is oblivious to it. What do you think needs to be done about this issue? Will there be more crime? Will there be more drugs, guns etc? (Im not against guns at all but no drugs!)


You have every reason to be upset. And when one discovers more of what is taking place I am sure any reasonable thinking person will be agitated substantially more.


Illegal alien migration into the United States costs honest, hardworking American, taxpayers $346 billion annually reported by the National Research Council. While employers of illegal aliens rake-in billions of dollars, the US citizens subsidize what may be called organized "Slavery in 21st Century America." While Congress facilitates outsourcing, insourcing and offshoring of American jobs by the thousands weekly, that same Congress imports 182,000 legal immigrant monthly who need jobs. Another estimated 100,000 illegal aliens arrive each month without jobs. All those immigrants seize jobs from American citizens at slave wages. What happens to the American taxpayer? "Immigrants a pay less tax, and are more likely to receive public benefits than American citizens," said Edwin Rubenstein, reporting on the National Research Council's new book: "The New Americans: Economic, Demographics and Fiscal Effects of Immigration." The NRC found that the average immigrant household receives $13,326 in federal welfare and pays $10,664.00 in federal taxes. Thus, American taxpayers shell out $2,682.00 for each immigrant household. In addition, the report showed that immigrants affect 15 different executive agencies of the U.S. government. Earned Income Tax Credit-fraud is rampant and IRS does little to verify existence of children. Clean Air and Climate Change-these goals are unattainable as long as US population grows-driven by unending immigration. Emergency medical treatment-US taxpayer money provides $250 million a year to help hospitals defray costs for illegal aliens. Bureau of Land Management-the Interior Department spends $1 million to mitigate environmental damage done by illegals crossing US southern border. Migrant educational grants-intended to help states educate children of illegal workers. More fraud from over-counting. Office of Foreign Labor Certification-immigrant workers depress wages for US citizens resulting in declines in federal revenues at $100 billion annually. As shown on CBS with Katie Couric this past week, 300,000 pregnant Mexican women cross the border to birth their babies, known as 'anchor babies', in American hospitals at an average cost of $6,000.00 per birth with no complications. If the child suffers heart defects, Downs Syndrome, Autism or any other problems, the costs jump to $500,000.00 with long term care into the millions of dollars. All footed by the America taxpayer! Not mentioned in Couric's report, that child enjoys free breakfasts and lunches through 13 years of publicly funded education at an average cost of $7,000.00 per year. Additionally, American taxpayers foot the bill for all medical and housing assistance for the child and mother. More hidden costs add up with ESL classes to teach the child English. Connecticut alone suffers 120 languages in their schools while Colorado suffers over 40 foreign languages that cripple their classrooms. The list of expenses paid for by American taxpayer soars with time and numbers of illegal aliens. Additionally, legal immigrants sponsor their relatives in chain migration and family reunification at US taxpayer expense. These immigrants take American jobs while they burn American taxpayer funds for immigrant welfare. This all happens while the US national debt approaches $18 trillion. Immigrants flood into this country while jobs cascade out to China where we owe $1 trillion in T-bills as of 2008. Additionally, we suffer a $700 billion annual trade deficit. Once those illegal aliens hit this country, half of them work off the books and do not pay $401 billion dollars annually according to the 2005 Bear Stearns Report. Additionally, they form the second largest underground economy in the world. Both legal and illegal immigrants send $80 billion back to their home countries in cash transfers on untaxed money. When does it end? Not any time soon! Who pays? You do! Like the proverbial golden calf, the United States taxpayer bleeds to death daily while our president and Congress fiddle, faddle and scratch their generous rear ends while they facilitate the death of America's middle class.

I think that an country's priority should be toward the needs of its own honest, upright, hardworking natural-born citizens over the needs of people coming into to the county through deceptive or other wise manipulative tactics thus illegal therefore illegal immigrants(most of them) who want nothing more than to leech off of the flawed and easily exploited social programs. Why do we (us citizens) owe anyone else in the world anything?! Particularly when they do not want to contribute to a society. Some say that this is not a christian attitude. Really?! we are suppose to continue be suckers and continue to let them leech off of us. It's no wonder why countries laugh at the US in regards to immigration and overall.

[phuckphace]

it is very obvious to anyone who uses their brain that Mexican immigration and amnesty are a net cost to our nation that will only grow more expensive and untenable over time. any marginal economic benefit they did bring has already found its way into the bank accounts of perfidious capitalists, never to be seen again (they privatized the profits and foisted the bill on American citizens). meanwhile immigrants are rapidly outbreeding natives to the point where das Volk will become a minority in their own country in a few decades, if current trends continue.

we can infer all we need to know about the feasibility of Mexican immigration by looking at Mexico itself, a third-world hellhole despite being a heavy exporter and rich in natural resources. a people who can't seem to maintain law, order and a decent standard of living at home probably won't fare any better elsewhere.

[Vlerchan]

Jumping between attacking legal and illegal immigrants makes your post difficult to respond to.

Illegal alien migration into the United States costs honest, hardworking American, taxpayers $346 billion annually reported by the National Research Council.
This thread is about reducing the number of illegal immigrants by granting large numbers of them amnesty. The findings of this reports are thus irrelevant.

However I would still appreciate if you linked to the report so I could review it. Thanks in advance.

While Congress facilitates outsourcing, insourcing and offshoring of American jobs by the thousands weekly, that same Congress imports 182,000 legal immigrant monthly who need jobs.
Congress insourcing or outsourcing or offshoring jobs is irrelevant to the debate. Feel free to create a thread discussing free trade though.

I'll address the immigrant bit below.

All those immigrants seize jobs from American citizens at slave wages.
I explained on the last page how this doesn't happen. Here's the source I used.

These are analysed in Sect. 4. We find small wage and employment impacts, even smaller than have been detected in previous metaanalytic research. A 1% point increase in the share of immigrants in a local labour market of the typical host country decreases wages of the native born by 0.029% (using a weighted average with weights determined by the precision of the estimates) and decreases employment of the native born by [a totally insignificant] 0.011%.

http://dare.ubvu.vu.nl/bitstream/handle/1871/19366/10.1007_s10109-010-0111-y.pdf;jsessionid=ECAF557CB0DC1AD907EC714F1961AFFD?sequence=1

It's a meta-analysis which means its aggregating the results of lots of individual studies for exactness.

It's notable that some studies do claim that the influx of immigrants boosts aggregate demand to levels where demand for labour actually increases and unemployment rates are affected positively.

The NRC found that the average immigrant household receives $13,326 in federal welfare and pays $10,664.00 in federal taxes. Thus, American taxpayers shell out $2,682.00 for each immigrant household.
NRC found that the average immigrant household receives $13,326 in federal annual expenditures and pays $10,664 in federal taxes— that is, they generate a fiscal deficit of $2,682 (1996 dollars) per household.

Lol. Try again.

I also had a hard time finding a study so I'm just going to refer you to this the economist article (http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21579482-new-study-shows-fiscal-impact-migration-broadly-neutral-boon-or) (dates last year - 2013) which states that when it comes to direct taxes and VAT, welfare education and health, immigrants have a insignificantly small but positive all the same impact.

In addition, the report showed that immigrants affect 15 different executive agencies of the U.S. government.
Please quote the relevant text from the report. Thank you.

Earned Income Tax Credit-fraud is rampant and IRS does little to verify existence of children.
Firstly, please provide statistics verifying to what extent this claim is true. Thank you.

Secondly, note immigrants fiscal impact when counting the above is still positive.

Thirdly, even your wording makes it obvious that the blame for this lies as much on the IRS as anyone.

Clean Air and Climate Change-these goals are unattainable as long as US population grows-driven by unending immigration.
I'm not responding to this claim until you offer some semblance of reasoning to support it.

Bureau of Land Management-the Interior Department spends $1 million to mitigate environmental damage done by illegals crossing US southern border.
This thread isn't about how great illegal immigrants are. It's about what would happen if we gave them amnesty.

Migrant educational grants-intended to help states educate children of illegal workers.
This thread isn't about how great illegal immigrants are. It's about what would happen if we gave them amnesty.

Office of Foreign Labor Certification-immigrant workers depress wages for US citizens resulting in declines in federal revenues at $100 billion annually.
I'm going to be real interested in reading the methodology that gifted us this claim.

Please produce it. Thank you.

As shown on CBS with Katie Couric this past week, 300,000 pregnant Mexican women cross the border to birth their babies, known as 'anchor babies', in American hospitals at an average cost of $6,000.00 per birth with no complications. If the child suffers heart defects, Downs Syndrome, Autism or any other problems, the costs jump to $500,000.00 with long term care into the millions of dollars. All footed by the America taxpayer!
Do you suppose we shoot pregnant woman as they try cross the border?

I see no solution to this that doesn't involve recklessly endangering people's lives.

Connecticut alone suffers 120 languages in their schools while Colorado suffers over 40 foreign languages that cripple their classrooms.
Please provide the evidence supporting this claim. Thank you.

These immigrants take American jobs while they burn American taxpayer funds for immigrant welfare.
I've previously demonstrated how immigrants don't take employment from US citizens.

I'm going to want actual up-to-date statistics for the second claim.

This all happens while the US national debt approaches $10 trillion.
This is my favourite line of your entire post. It just demonstrates how old your sources are.

Currently the US national debt stands somewhere in the region of 18 trillion (http://www.usdebtclock.org/).

Immigrants flood into this country while jobs cascade out to China where we owe $1 trillion in T-bills as of 2008.
And?

Additionally, we suffer a $700 billion annual trade deficit.
Please tell me why trade deficits are bad. Thank you.

Once those illegal aliens hit this country, half of them work off the books and do not pay $401 billion dollars annually according to the 2005 Bear Stearns Report. Additionally, they form the second largest underground economy in the world.
This thread isn't about how great illegal immigrants are. It's about what would happen if we gave them amnesty.

Both legal and illegal immigrants send $80 billion back to their home countries in cash transfers on untaxed money.
US dollars need to be exchanged into pesos/or whatever.

Then the people who now hold the US dollars invest it back into the country.

When does it end? Not any time soon! Who pays? You do! Like the proverbial golden calf, the United States taxpayer bleeds to death daily while our president and Congress fiddle, faddle and scratch their generous rear ends while they facilitate the death of America's middle class.
If you're going to steal someone else's rhetoric (google search) then the polite thing to do is cite them.

I think that an country's priority should be toward the needs of its own honest, upright, hardworking natural-born citizens over the needs of people coming into to the county through deceptive or other wise manipulative tactics thus illegal therefore illegal immigrants(most of them) who want nothing more than to leech off of the flawed and easily exploited social programs.
This thread isn't about how great illegal immigrants are. It's about what would happen if we gave them amnesty.

You also might have noticed that I just skipped over a lot of your rhetoric in this post. Because that's what it was: rhetoric.

---

it is very obvious to anyone who uses their brain that Mexican immigration and amnesty are a net cost to our nation that will only grow more expensive and untenable over time.
But to us who like to use empirical evidence...

meanwhile immigrants are rapidly outbreeding natives to the point where das Volk will become a minority in their own country in a few decades, if current trends continue.
It's inevitable regardless of the changes you make.

Of course the actual native Americans have been a minority for a while now.

... a third-world hellhole despite being a heavy exporter and rich in natural resources.
I don't think either of us no enough about Mexician history to be able to make an argument in regards to this.

Lots of complex and interlinking factors determine the development patterns of nations.

I'd suggest you start with "Repeal NAFTA" though. Because that's bad for both nations.

[Karkat]

Of course the actual native Americans have been a minority for a while now.

I'm glad you addressed this. I kind of rolled my eyes at the 'extermination of the middle class' bit for this reason.