Freedom?

[CosmicNoodle]

WARNING: Tonight I have done much, much thinking, a lot of it is unusually disjointed and each separate point is fairly narrow as I don't have time to elaborate.

(Hypothetical situation) I was sitting on an international flight, using a knife to carve patterns into my leg and injecting heroin into my eyeball, and what do you know I was arrested. (hypothetical situation over)

As far as I'm concerned, we live in a dystopian world. I shall explain my thinking. Be warned, my thinking is often viewed and unusual.

I look around and gaze my eyes upon humanity, and what do I see? I see a nation of brain washed, controlled, unthinking drones who are controlled in every aspect of there life's by a government. I shall now explain each point I made

Brain washed:
No one can refute that the general populous is constantly brain washed, be it religion, media, trends, most of society is brain washed in some way or another. I see a world of stupid, degenerates, and many of you will disagree, many of you will think of ME as the stupid degenerate, in fact I know some of you do as I have been called those things by some of you, anyway, tangent. If you can refute that, please do I'd be interested to see opposing points.

Controlled:
Again, obvious, as a society we are controlled in the way we behave, and even think, the way we behave are controlled by social conduct, and the way we act is controlled by laws and rules, rules often made by men with little understanding of the world around them, every aspect of ourselves is controlled, and don't say "Noooo, we have free speech", because that's bullshit, we have the right to speech censored so it is socially appropriate, and so that it comply with laws. We can't act how we want, take my earlier hypothetical situation, no one but me woud have been affected, but I would have been arrested, as if I only rent my body from the government whilst I'm alive. What we think, well that's quite open to debate, inside your own mind is one of the few places you are actually free, but not quite, because your thoughts are based on your personality, and what you have learnt, both of those things are once again controlled by the society you live in. So to some extent we don't even control what goes on in our own minds. If you understand my point of view.

Unthinking drones:
Do I really have to elaborate... -_-

As far as I'm concerned, the society we live in is already a dystopia, obviously not to the lengths of say, the novels 1984 or Brave New World, but they seem to be heading that way...toward an increasingly controlled population, with a decreasing freedom.
We as a society are not free, in any way, we have the freedom to obey. Freedom to obey? Yes, because there is no alternative.


Anyway, I've thrown in my two cents, go ahead and cast your view, I'm interested to see peoples opinion on the idea of freedom.

[Horatio Nelson]

I disagree.

(I'm feeling like a lazy bum so I'll edit this when I feel inspired to write my reasons.

[justarandomteen]

I agree, I feel as if society brainwashes most of the population, and the part of the population (mostly educated) with different views are kicked back into line by the rest of society

[phuckphace]

We can't act how we want, take my earlier hypothetical situation, no one but me would have been affected, but I would have been arrested, as if I only rent my body from the government whilst I'm alive.

:lol3: a heroin junkie waving a knife around on a crowded plane is a serious risk to others for reasons that should be obvious (junkies behave erratically and can frequently become violent for no reason) and you would be arrested in that scenario to mitigate the risk that you pose to others in your drug-addled state.

you seem to have this idea that most laws were dreamt up solely to fulfill the power-hungry fantasies of some shadowy bureaucrat who gets off on cracking the whip. here in the real world, people practice risk mitigation where they take steps to eliminate perceived risks to the safety of the community. quite a bit of what people do "with their own bodies" does in fact have third-party repercussions in ways that are sometimes immediately obvious but sometimes not.

not to mention, it's a natural subconscious reaction to feel concern and horror when other people do things like carve their own flesh with sharp objects. in that scenario you would be taken into custody for your own protection (another reason society exists is for the protection of its members). if everybody just shrugged and kept walking every time someone gouged their own eyeball out (which you seem to consider ideal) we would have no society to begin with.

[Stronk Serb]

Yeah, I agree. I want to be able to criticize and insult without an alias or anonymously our beloved Leader Alexandar Vučić, because he is a cuntmouth wank who get's hard when he gets power. I want to do that without being thrown to jail. I want to be able to tell the cop to fuck off when he's searching me second time this month, I want to be able to tell that stinker in public transport to get out or take a bath. I want to be able to punch the crocodile junkie in the face when he comes with his rotting leg in the bus to beg for money.

[Vlerchan]

(Hypothetical situation) I was sitting on an international flight, using a knife to carve patterns into my leg and injecting heroin into my eyeball, and what do you know I was arrested. (hypothetical situation over)
phuckphace already explained why this should be the case. I'll offer a more extreme example anyway.

I'm just sitting there. Not hurting anyone. In my hand is a loaded pistol which I'm pointing casually at the people around me. Not hurting anyone. Then the authoritarians arrested me. Fascists.

The idea that rights can exists and extend indefinitely is unworkable outside groups of the singular.

---

You're also really stretching the term "dystopia" if you believe that the idea of personal responsibility prevailing is a requirement for entry into that group.

I see a nation of brain washed, controlled, unthinking drones who are controlled in every aspect of there life's by a government.
You mention below the extra-governmental constructs influence human behaviour so I'm going to just skip this.

No one can refute that the general populous is constantly brain washed, be it religion, media, trends, most of society is brain washed in some way or another.
In sociology this is referred to as "socialisation".

Linking this phenomenon to a buzzword like "brainwashing" does not make the phenomenon a negative. It's also something that's always going to occur in groups larger than the singular.

---

I skipped over the bit about degenerates. I didn't see the relevance.

Again, obvious, as a society we are controlled in the way we behave and even think.
No. It's as individuals we are controlled in the way we behave.

But then since free will doesn't exist it's arguable that individuals don't either so what's the matter?

I should add regardless you're yet to explain why social norms are a negative thing.

... the way we behave are controlled by social conduct ...
Is this a bad thing?

... the way we act is controlled by laws and rules ...
Is this a bad thing?

rules often made by men with little understanding of the world around them ...
Expand please.

... every aspect of ourselves is controlled ...
It's "regulated" at best.

... as if I only rent my body from the government whilst I'm alive ...
Why do you presume that you should have a right to exist in the first place?

The person CosmicNoodle only exists because (evil) society has created a social structure in which the person CosmicNoodle is allowed to exist.

If you understand my point of view.
Yes. We are basically just a set of genes moulded into a particular shape by environmental pressures.

Do I really have to elaborate...
Wow me.

toward an increasingly controlled population, with a decreasing freedom.
You just described a phenomenon that basically a by definition output of society.

[CosmicNoodle]

phuckphace already explained why this should be the case. I'll offer a more extreme example anyway.

I did have a reply to him, but VT did that annoying time out thing and I couldn't be bothered re typing it. My bellow response should give you a more in depth idea of what I was talking about.

I'm just sitting there. Not hurting anyone. In my hand is a loaded pistol which I'm pointing casually at the people around me. Not hurting anyone. Then the authoritarians arrested me. Fascists.

The idea that rights can exists and extend indefinitely is unworkable outside groups of the singular.

Yes, but in my view, so long as you have yet to hurt anyone, you shpudl not be prosecuted, my actions had yet to harm in my hypothetical situation, as far as I'm concerned people should be able to do anything they want, and if they people around them think it's to much of a risk they should get the fuck out of there.

But obviously, my line of thinking is very unusual and opposes the norm I so hate, meaning I do understand the flaw in my argument and accept it, think of my thread as more of a rant than a literal argument. Obviously my personal ideals can't function, well, they may given a complete over hall of the way humanity exists.

---

You're also really stretching the term "dystopia" if you believe that the idea of personal responsibility prevailing is a requirement for entry into that group.

(I was half drunk, but I have made my argument and shall make a slight attempt to defend it)

I still think society is a dystopia, I don't see how you do t think of it as so, we are co troled in every possible way, by a government that each year takes away more and more of our power and increases there own whilst forcing us to conform to specific behaviours. Both by law and social pressure.


You mention below the extra-governmental constructs influence human behaviour so I'm going to just skip this.


In sociology this is referred to as "socialisation".

Linking this phenomenon to a buzzword like "brainwashing" does not make the phenomenon a negative. It's also something that's always going to occur in groups larger than the singular.

I am aware of Socialisation, and in my view it is a bad thing. Each person should be able to form there own opinions, not opinions catering to society, what the media presents, what political options are available.

---

I skipped over the bit about degenerates. I didn't see the relevance.

You must admit, society is full of degenerates


No. It's as individuals we are controlled in the way we behave.

Yes, that is the problem, the fact that we are co troled at all by any sort of power. My problem is with people having power over me. (Technically I could be classed as Anochist)

But then since free will doesn't exist it's arguable that individuals don't either so what's the matter?

The existence of free will is debatable, so your argument is only valid to those who believe what you do, so not really a valid argument.

I should add regardless you're yet to explain why social norms are a negative thing.

Each human should be able to act as they wish without fear of being labeled weird or unusual, we are not free u till we can act as we wish in front of others, otherwise you are your own jailer


Is this a bad thing?

Yes, one should have the freedom to act as they wish, no matter how unusual without the fear of social procecution


Is this a bad thing?

The fact that we need laws is a bad things, it defects badly upon hunality and our pathetic society.


Expand please.

My expansion is at the bottom of my reply for reasons.


It's "regulated" at best.

So you admit that there are "regulations" (same as control) on every aspect of our lives?


Why do you presume that you should have a right to exist in the first place?

Simple, I don't, but now that I happen to have been squeezed out of someone's pussy I have rights, and one of them is to point out how fucking stupid most of my rights are.

The person CosmicNoodle only exists because (evil) society has created a social structure in which the person CosmicNoodle is allowed to exist.

Cosmic is allowed to exist outside of society, but unfortunately he exists INA society that has many problems that the general population stupidly ignore. Cosmic also takes pleasure in pointing out the flaws, and seemingly he enjoys talking about himself in 3rd person.


Yes. We are basically just a set of genes moulded into a particular shape by environmental pressures.
That wasn't my point but yes. What was your point?


Wow me.

Uhh?

You just described a phenomenon that basically a by definition output of society.

If that is the designed output, our society if totally fucked up and backward


Your doing it again, "your wrong and now I'll list why".
Your missing my point, there is no such thing as freedom, in any aspect anymore, why am I the only one who has a problem with this?

You asked me to expand one of my points:
Anti homosexuality laws, must I say more? Rich taxed less than poor? The fact that everyone in power comes from a well off and often high society background, giving them little idea about what real life is actually like for the average citizen.
Admittedly my original point was to narrow (although i was half drunk when making this thread so i dont blame myself for being vuage), is that expansion sufficient?

Am I getting my ideas across here? That I dislike the control society has over us, and that in my idea world things would be radically different, but the human being is not constable with my ideal world so I'm forced to hold less ideaistic views that I don't really believe in. Is that comming across?


(Side note: Seriously, why do I seem to be the only person I know why disagrees with the way society is built?)

[Vlerchan]

Obviously my personal ideals can't function, well, they may given a complete overhaul of the way humanity exists.
Yes. I think you'll be waiting a while before humanity starts disregarding ideals like "self-preservation".

[We're controlled] by law and social pressure.
Your critique is applicable to every group larger than the singular that ever existed because social codes arise naturally.

It's still impossible to accept what you're saying without debasing the term "dystopia "

I am aware of Socialisation, and in my view it is a bad thing.
You find all organised thought a "bad thing"?

Each person should be able to form there own opinions, not opinions catering to society, what the media presents, what political options are available.
Each person is able to do this. I have in a number of regards.

I should add that none of it emerged spontaneously from within. I was influenced by other people (etc.).

You must admit, society is full of degenerates.
It seems like you've formed an opinion about other people's behaviour. Isn't this what you are against?

... the fact that we are co troled at all by any sort of power ...
Is there a basis to (any of) this?

---

You're also not an anarchist in the political/ideological sense of the term.

The existence of free will is debatable, so your argument is only valid to those who believe what you do, so not really a valid argument.
It's quite likely that free will doesn't exist. I'll edit-in empirical evidence when I'm on a PC. Regardless I think it's a fair to hold it as a standing assumption.

Do you believe in free will?

Each human should be able to act as they wish without fear of being labeled weird or unusual, we are not free u till we can act as we wish in front of others, otherwise you are your own jailer
Isn't it ironic that in order to free the body you must in turn imprison the mind?

You'll need to explain why Freedom trumps all other ideals. This paragraph doesn't do such.

Yes, one should have the freedom to act as they wish, no matter how unusual without the fear of social procecution
You're just making statements. I'm yet to hear why this is all important. It's not self-explanatory.

The fact that we need laws is a bad things, it defects badly upon hunality and our pathetic society.
I'm sorry everyone is not perfect.

So you admit that there are "regulations" (same as control) on every aspect of our lives?
I'm not arguing that we're completely free.

Simple, I don't, but now that I happen to have been squeezed out of someone's pussy I have rights, and one of them is to point out how fucking stupid most of my rights are.
You only have rights because society allows you to have the rights.

You're not born with a set of inalienable rights.

Cosmic is allowed to exist outside of society, but unfortunately he exists INA society that has many problems that the general population stupidly ignore.
I was making the point that despite your insistence that socially enforced shared-value systems are bad you exist as a result of one.

What was your point?
Individuals don't really exist.

You've also just agreed free will doesn't exist when you responded "Yes". Just hope you realise.

Uhh?
How are people " unthinking drones".

If that is the designed output, our society if totally fucked up and backward
Socially-enforced common-value systems are a common feature of all societies.

Your doing it again, "your wrong and now I'll list why".
And?

Your missing my point, there is no such thing as freedom, in any aspect anymore, why am I the only one who has a problem with this?
You mean there's no such thing as "complete" freedom.

Unless you live in a wholly monolithic, monocultural, monoidealed block, which you don't, then there's a wide spectrum of positions that one can occupy. It's not the widest possible spectrum but then you're yet to demonstrate why that would be desirable.

[Laws].
Listing two contentious laws, the latter I'm pretty sure doesn't exist anywhere, does not prove your point.

s that comming across?
Sort of.

[Miserabilia]

WARNING: Tonight I have done much, much thinking, a lot of it is unusually disjointed and each separate point is fairly narrow as I don't have time to elaborate.

(Hypothetical situation) I was sitting on an international flight, using a knife to carve patterns into my leg and injecting heroin into my eyeball, and what do you know I was arrested. (hypothetical situation over)

As far as I'm concerned, we live in a dystopian world. I shall explain my thinking. Be warned, my thinking is often viewed and unusual.

I look around and gaze my eyes upon humanity, and what do I see? I see a nation of brain washed, controlled, unthinking drones who are controlled in every aspect of there life's by a government. I shall now explain each point I made

Brain washed:
No one can refute that the general populous is constantly brain washed, be it religion, media, trends, most of society is brain washed in some way or another. I see a world of stupid, degenerates, and many of you will disagree, many of you will think of ME as the stupid degenerate, in fact I know some of you do as I have been called those things by some of you, anyway, tangent. If you can refute that, please do I'd be interested to see opposing points.

Controlled:
Again, obvious, as a society we are controlled in the way we behave, and even think, the way we behave are controlled by social conduct, and the way we act is controlled by laws and rules, rules often made by men with little understanding of the world around them, every aspect of ourselves is controlled, and don't say "Noooo, we have free speech", because that's bullshit, we have the right to speech censored so it is socially appropriate, and so that it comply with laws. We can't act how we want, take my earlier hypothetical situation, no one but me woud have been affected, but I would have been arrested, as if I only rent my body from the government whilst I'm alive. What we think, well that's quite open to debate, inside your own mind is one of the few places you are actually free, but not quite, because your thoughts are based on your personality, and what you have learnt, both of those things are once again controlled by the society you live in. So to some extent we don't even control what goes on in our own minds. If you understand my point of view.

Unthinking drones:
Do I really have to elaborate... -_-

As far as I'm concerned, the society we live in is already a dystopia, obviously not to the lengths of say, the novels 1984 or Brave New World, but they seem to be heading that way...toward an increasingly controlled population, with a decreasing freedom.
We as a society are not free, in any way, we have the freedom to obey. Freedom to obey? Yes, because there is no alternative.


Anyway, I've thrown in my two cents, go ahead and cast your view, I'm interested to see peoples opinion on the idea of freedom.

Well ofcourse we're not free in thought and behaviour; not because we're forced, but because we force oureslves. Our brains tell us to act in different ways around different people for social advantages.
I'm not talking about actual laws; I'm talking about acting "polite", or "friendly" even when you don't consciously give two s*ts about people;

we do it because it's an advantage, from an evolutionairy point of view.
We rely on other people for backup or friendship or help primitevely, but once you're looking at a civilization we need each other for our main needs including food water sanitation health safety and the list goes on;

not to mention the social advantages. Humanity globalizing is not distinctly a positive thing nor is it distinctly negative.
Our network of contacts has increased so drastricly lately, even though the growth or our networks started when people sarted sailing the seas and trading and colonizing, that everyon is only mere steps away from getting to whoever they want to see or speak.

So, no, we're not free in our behaviour; we force it onto ourselves.
And no, we're not free in what we do either; we live in a civilization which is extremely fragil if it weren't for the fact that the majority of the people is in fact as you'd call brainwashed or controlled or obedient.
Just as someone born in the jungle'd know how to survive there, we born in civilization know how to sustain it. It's taught to us and taught by each other every day, and has been since human civilization started.

So, to finish;

TL;DR - It's true, but it's not a bad thing. It's a way of living that we should be able to give into in order for our civilziation to exist in the first place.

[Paladino]

We all know my idea of freedom lol, indyref#2 please :P that is the only way I can see a better future for my children and grand children.

[CosmicNoodle]

Yes. I think you'll be waiting a while before humanity starts disregarding ideals like "self-preservation".

That's not the sort of notion I wish humanity to drop, you miss understand.

Your critique is applicable to every group larger than the singular that ever existed because social codes arise naturally.

Yes, they do, but I dislike them, I always have, they put restrictions on oneself. And its even worse because they are self enforced.

It's still impossible to accept what you're saying without debasing the term "dystopia "


You find all organised thought a "bad thing"?

No, organised society, as it exists, is a bad thing.


Each person is able to do this. I have in a number of regards.

But many of them unenforceable, useless notions in your head because society will not allow you to endulge in them. Because they may not be an option.

I should add that none of it emerged spontaneously from within. I was influenced by other people (etc.).

That's my problem, that everyone seems to have views dictated by what people say, people just fine something that vuagely agrees with them and then decide to identify as it, no one forms there own opinions based on facts, for some reason people take other people into account, what those others will think ect.


It seems like you've formed an opinion about other people's behaviour. Isn't this what you are against?

No, I based my opinion ion of people based off facts, and not off what other people want me to think, this is what I'm arguing for.

Is there a basis to (any of) this?

---

You're also not an anarchist in the political/ideological sense of the term.


It's quite likely that free will doesn't exist. I'll edit-in empirical evidence when I'm on a PC. Regardless I think it's a fair to hold it as a standing assumption.

Do you believe in free will?

I think thats part of a very (interesting and) different debate, and yes, I do believe in free will, I fail to see how all my actions are predetermined.


Isn't it ironic that in order to free the body you must in turn imprison the mind?

That is one of !y main gripes, with society, it is one or the other, there is no true freedom.

You'll need to explain why Freedom trumps all other ideals. This paragraph doesn't do such.

What is a bird if its kept in a cage? Understand? Without freedom, you have no reason to exist, you are not free too follow what you really want, only what society and laws deem acceptable. To me, there does not yet seem to be a reasonable alternative.

You're just making statements. I'm yet to hear why this is all important. It's not self-explanatory.


I'm sorry everyone is not perfect.

Again, one of !y main gripes, with humanity in general.


I'm not arguing that we're completely free.

So you admit we are not free? That's my problem as I mentioned above, in my opinion, unlimited freedom or nothing, I see no reason why I should abode by laws or social conduct, they are superficial thongs created to keep people on line, for reasons that no longer problem humanity, and if they do, they are problems created by the scum of the earth.

You only have rights because society allows you to have the rights.

You're not born with a set of inalienable rights.

The idea of rights should not exists on !y view, society may give me rights, bit then takes them away as it sees fit.


I was making the point that despite your insistence that socially enforced shared-value systems are bad you exist as a result of one.

I think you missed a comma, anyhoo.
(I will point out I would have orefered it of I had never existed, if that changes so may my view) that's my problem, that I have to abode by everyone else's apshared views, and am unable to follow !y own views because they are not an option pollitiically or socially

Individuals don't really exist.

Again, a personal opinion, so not a valid argument

You've also just agreed free will doesn't exist when you responded "Yes". Just hope you realise.

Did I? Well I didn't mean to, I believe in the existence of free will.

How are people " unthinking drones".

OK, poor wording, 99% of society is built of unthinking drones. Better?


Socially-enforced common-value systems are a common feature of all societies.

So is rape, murder, bullying, are they good?


And?

It irritates me, you offer no actual counter argument


You mean there's no such thing as "complete" freedom.

Without complete freedom we don't have any, definition of free: "able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another.", without complete freedom, we have none.

Unless you live in a wholly monolithic, monocultural, monoidealed block, which you don't, then there's a wide spectrum of positions that one can occupy. It's not the widest possible spectrum but then you're yet to demonstrate why that would be desirable.


Listing two contentious laws, the latter I'm pretty sure doesn't exist anywhere, does not prove your point.

You asked me to demonstrate how many laws are made by narrow minded fools, I did so, and I asure you all the laws I listed do exist.


Sort of.

My main problem is that because of the (shitty, shitty) way humans behave, we have been forced to make stupid social conventions, laws, ect, meaning because of the fucked up way humanity has behaved, I am restricted in what I am allowed to do in my day to day life, that is my main, big problem.


Well ofcourse we're not free in thought and behaviour; not because we're forced, but because we force oureslves. Our brains tell us to act in different ways around different people for social advantages.
I'm not talking about actual laws; I'm talking about acting "polite", or "friendly" even when you don't consciously give two s*ts about people;

we do it because it's an advantage, from an evolutionairy point of view.
We rely on other people for backup or friendship or help primitevely, but once you're looking at a civilization we need each other for our main needs including food water sanitation health safety and the list goes on;

not to mention the social advantages. Humanity globalizing is not distinctly a positive thing nor is it distinctly negative.
Our network of contacts has increased so drastricly lately, even though the growth or our networks started when people sarted sailing the seas and trading and colonizing, that everyon is only mere steps away from getting to whoever they want to see or speak.

So, no, we're not free in our behaviour; we force it onto ourselves.
And no, we're not free in what we do either; we live in a civilization which is extremely fragil if it weren't for the fact that the majority of the people is in fact as you'd call brainwashed or controlled or obedient.
Just as someone born in the jungle'd know how to survive there, we born in civilization know how to sustain it. It's taught to us and taught by each other every day, and has been since human civilization started.

So, to finish;

TL;DR - It's true, but it's not a bad thing. It's a way of living that we should be able to give into in order for our civilziation to exist in the first place.

Again, my problem is with humanity, the fact that laws exist in the first place defects poorly upon us as a species, the fact that we actually need them angers me,

[Vlerchan]

That's not the sort of notion I wish humanity to drop, you miss understand.
You expect humanity to not engage in risk analysis and engage perceived threats pre-emptively?

Yes, they do, but I dislike them, I always have, they put restrictions on oneself. And its even worse because they are self enforced.
People not raping (attractive) people because society and/or they believe these (attractive) people have a right to bodily integrity and should not be raped - or at the very least there will be serious consequences in return - is a "restriction".

I presume you're okay with stripping people's freedom in this regard?

But many of them unenforceable, useless notions in your head because society will not allow you to endulge in them. Because they may not be an option.
Yes. I'm not a god.

Honestly the more I read your posting in this thread the more it seems to me like you're just complaining about people not (universally) agreeing with you.

That's my problem, that everyone seems to have views dictated by what people say, people just fine something that vuagely agrees with them and then decide to identify as it.
Example?

I'm also asking for an example so I'm sure I'm not misunderstanding you. As it stands I think I might agree.

no one forms there own opinions based on facts, for some reason people take other people into account, what those others will think ect.
Yes. People like having friends so take into account their feelings.

I'd imagine that these people have logically judged that (on the basis of fact) that being happy is superior to being honest.

Of course I don't think this happens (in politics) to anywhere near the extent you think it does.

No, I based my opinion ion of people based off facts, and not off what other people want me to think, this is what I'm arguing for.
It's okay to judge people if you base it off facts. Right. This is different to what you were arguing earlier. i.e:

"Yes, one should have the freedom to act as they wish, no matter how unusual without the fear of social prosecution".

Do explain setp-by-step how you reached the conclusion that people are degenerate. I'd imagine it involves some amount of referrals to emotion as opposed to fact.

I think thats part of a very (interesting and) different debate, and yes, I do believe in free will, I fail to see how all my actions are predetermined.
You agree that "[w]e are basically just a set of genes moulded into a particular shape by environmental pressures".

"Yes".

Well if you believe in the idea of cause and effect then it's the case that:

>action occurs
>action is absorbed through the sense organs
>action is processed in the brain
>reaction occurs.

If you are a materialist and believe that there's only the physical then this is done in a dot-to-dot (i.e., wholly deterministic) fashion.

So free will doesn't exist. We're just cogs in a machine. If you had all the information you could predict how everyone was going to act indefinitely.

That is one of !y main gripes, with society, it is one or the other, there is no true freedom.
There's no complete freedom beyond this.

Though even if you lived by yourself on an island you wouldn't be completely free. You're still restricted by your bodies abilities (i.e., you can't fly). Nature is our greatest slave-master.

Without freedom, you have no reason to exist, you are not free too follow what you really want, only what society and laws deem acceptable. To me, there does not yet seem to be a reasonable alternative.
I really want to see some phuckphace commentary on some of this.

Without the security brought by stripping people of some freedoms you probably wouldn't exist anyway. The bird might be kept in a cage to shield it from the predators that would kill it otherwise.

Again, one of !y main gripes, with humanity in general.
Okay. I don't expect everyone to be perfect by my definition of the word perfect.

So you admit we are not free?
I don't believe we're completely free at an individual level. I don't think this is a desirable either.

At the same time I do believe that freedom itself is largely an illusion. In order to gain individual freedoms (say the right to smoke in a bar) we must give up societal freedoms (say the right to not have your lungs filled with second-hand smoke while working in a bar). It's a zero-sum game.

You're never actually gaining more freedom - you're just gaining a different sort of freedom.

That's my problem as I mentioned above, in my opinion, unlimited freedom or nothing, I see no reason why I should abode by laws or social conduct, they are superficial thongs created to keep people on line, for reasons that no longer problem humanity, and if they do, they are problems created by the scum of the earth.
This is a very wishy-washy was to put things.

It reads like "laws aren't needed except when they're needed but when they're needed it's okay because these people are doing things I disagree with".

The idea of rights should not exists on !y view, society may give me rights, bit then takes them away as it sees fit.
It also gives them to you only as it sees fit.

On a moral level I don't think you've any real basis to complain about the foundations of human rights.

I think you missed a comma, anyhoo.
Well, I was only ever a B student as far as English went.

that's my problem, that I have to abode by everyone else's apshared views, and am unable to follow !y own views because they are not an option pollitiically or socially
You mean you disagree with something?

OK, poor wording, 99% of society is built of unthinking drones. Better?
I was just hoping you'd explain where the idea comes from.

So is rape, murder, bullying, are they good?
You've mentioned things that might occur in a society.

I'm saying that socially-enforced common-value systems are something that is foundational to a society. It can't exist without it.

I also never made any mention of good or bad here. It just is.

It irritates me, you offer no actual counter argument
Pointing out why you're wrong is the counter-argument. You can also presume that I'm arguing for the statues-quo (non-anomie) because I thought that was implied.

Without complete freedom we don't have any, definition of free: "able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another.", without complete freedom, we have none.
I made an argument about a freedom spectrum. Feel free to address it.

Whilst we're also getting to use dictionaries.

Freer: comparative of free.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freer

So you can be more or less free.

You asked me to demonstrate how many laws are made by narrow minded fools
You made this claim:

rules often made by men with little understanding of the world around them

I highlighted the key-word. It implies a large amount (I'd go as far to say "majority") of laws are made by people with little understanding of the world around them. Pointing to two laws does not demonstrate this. I think you noted a handful of laws that you see a lot in the media because they're contentious and then generalised that the rest of the system was broken on this basis.

[Hudor]

There exists some degree of freedom though. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to realise what all you wrote. It would also not be wrong to say you couldn't be the only one who realises what you said. Plus there are the institutions that are involved with the mobilization of public. Surely they would have a clear view of what are doing.

[fairmaiden]

I'm all for free speech, however there are some people who use 'free speech' as a way to insult and humiliate others. Like if someone says something quite sexist, no way in hell is that 'exercising free speech'. It's just being rude/discriminatory.

And our 'freedom' may seem controlled now, but 70-80 years ago it was much more 'controlled', so I'm grateful for that at least.