US police kill boy, 12, carrying replica gun

[Paladino]

A 12-year-old boy has died after being shot by police in the US city of Cleveland, after carrying what turned out to be a replica gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at Tamir Rice after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

He did not make any verbal threats nor point the gun towards the officers.

A lawyer representing his family said it would be carrying out its own investigation into what happened.

The incident comes as a grand jury decision in Ferguson, Missouri, will decide imminently whether to indict a police officer in the fatal shooting death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager.

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A recording reveals the 911 caller did not know if the weapon was real
His shooting in August in Ferguson sparked days of violent protests in the town, prompting a heavy police crackdown.

'Airsoft'
The boy was shot on Saturday afternoon and died in hospital early on Sunday morning.

Cleveland deputy police chief Ed Tomba said the boy was shot twice after pulling the gun from the waistband of his trousers.

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Tamir Rice had a "baby face" according to his family's lawyer Timothy Kucharski
Police said the weapon was an "airsoft" replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol, adding that an orange safety indicator had been removed.

An audio recording of the 911 emergency call made by the man who reported the incident reveals that on two occasions he said that the pistol was "probably a fake" and on another occasion that the person holding it "was probably a juvenile".

The caller also said that he was not sure whether the weapon was "real or not".

But Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland police association, said the two officers at the scene were not told about the caller's comments.

One of the officers involved was in his first year on the local force, the other had more than 10 years of experience.

The BBC's David Willis in Washington says an official investigation is under way and both officers have been placed on administrative leave.

Tamir Rice's father, Gregory Henderson, said that police should have used a stun gun - or Taser - to subdue his son rather than shoot him.

"Why not Tase him?" he was quoted as asking by Cleveland.com. "[They] shot him twice, not once, and at the end of the day you all don't shoot for the legs, you shoot for the upper body," he said.

Mr Henderson said that Tamir was a "respectful young man" who "minded his elders", and that it was a mystery to him why his son, reported to be tall for his age, allegedly did not follow police orders.

The BB gun taken from the 12-year old shot by Cleveland police (23 November 2014)
The replica handgun taken from the 12-year old shot by Cleveland police
There have been calls for tighter controls on fake guns, with one local lawmaker - Alicia Reece - saying she intends to introduce legislation that would require fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly coloured.

A lawyer for Rice's family, Timothy Kucharski, told the BBC that he would be conducting an investigation, in "parallel" to the police, in order to establish exactly what happened.

"If in fact we determine that Tamir's rights are violated, we will proceed with civil action against the police," he said.

Cleveland's police force has come under increased scrutiny in recent years, most notably over a high-profile car chase in 2012 that ended with two deaths and officers firing 137 shots.

I really think a Taser should have been involved, rather than shooting the poor boy. Considering he was so young, the police should have NEVER let fire at him. RIP.

[Vilnius]

I really think a Taser should have been involved, rather than shooting the poor boy. Considering he was so young, the police should have NEVER let fire at him. RIP.

True, a taser probably would have settled things a lot better. However, the boy not obeying the officer's orders certainly didn't help, and the officer was most likely acting on the thought that his life may be in danger.

[Paladino]

I think only some officers should be allowed Guns like here in the UK. If someone is seen with a gun an armed response unit should be called instead of every ordinary police officer having a fire arm, as it does end up with casualties like this.

[thatcountrykid]

I think only some officers should be allowed Guns like here in the UK. If someone is seen with a gun an armed response unit should be called instead of every ordinary police officer having a fire arm, as it does end up with casualties like this.

Remember just cause a gun hasn't been seen doesn't meanh ere isn't one. It's a shame when anyone is killed but as far as armed police I say better safe than sorry and always be armed

[Vlerchan]

However, the boy not obeying the officer's orders certainly didn't help, and the officer was most likely acting on the thought that his life may be in danger.
Cops are trained to diffuse situations like this.

The "shoot first ask questions later" approach displayed here is inexcusable.

---

I mean diffuse like this:

KALAMAZOO, MI — Police reports and recordings of a sometimes tense 40-minute encounter with a belligerent, rifle-toting man offers insight into how officers tried to defuse a volatile situation without infringing on his right to openly carry the gun on a city street.

On May 4, Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety officers responded to multiple reports of a man, possibly intoxicated, carrying a rifle along East Cork Street in the city's Milwood neighborhood. Joseph Houseman, 63, was eventually persuaded to hand over the gun, which was returned to him the next day. Police considered but ultimately decided against seeking a misdemeanor charge of brandishing a firearm.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html

[phuckphace]

you could easily drop and disarm a 12 year old with a Taser, you know the "non-lethal" way? you're right, he maybe could have been carrying a real gun, but even assuming it was real I can't see a 12 year old being a very good shot or having any sort of tactical advantage vs. several experienced cops.

[thatcountrykid]

Cops are trained to diffuse situations like this.

The "shoot first ask questions later" approach displayed here is inexcusable.

---

I mean diffuse like this:

KALAMAZOO, MI — Police reports and recordings of a sometimes tense 40-minute encounter with a belligerent, rifle-toting man offers insight into how officers tried to defuse a volatile situation without infringing on his right to openly carry the gun on a city street.

On May 4, Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety officers responded to multiple reports of a man, possibly intoxicated, carrying a rifle along East Cork Street in the city's Milwood neighborhood. Joseph Houseman, 63, was eventually persuaded to hand over the gun, which was returned to him the next day. Police considered but ultimately decided against seeking a misdemeanor charge of brandishing a firearm.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html

I guess you missed te reports oh him pointing the "weapon" at people

you could easily drop and disarm a 12 year old with a Taser, you know the "non-lethal" way? you're right, he maybe could have been carrying a real gun, but even assuming it was real I can't see a 12 year old being a very good shot or having any sort of tactical advantage vs. several experienced cops.

You don't have to be old to pull a trigger. There not really much tactics there other than shoot all you can. They tried to defuse it and he pulled the "weapon"

[Vlerchan]

I guess you missed te reports oh him pointing the "weapon" at people
I guess you missed my post:

Cops are trained to diffuse situations like this.

They tried to defuse it and he pulled the "weapon".
No. He took the gun in one hand from the waistband of his trousers. Most likely to help him indicate that the gun was fake. The police then shot - Disregarding the fact that he a) probably didn't understand the gravity of the situation to begin with and b) probably couldn't hit them if he tried. There wasn't a reasonable attempt made to diffuse the situation - see the article I have linked - but rather the police engaged in the "shoot first ask questions later" practice that I mentioned in my previous post. There was lots more that could have been done. It might have put the lives of the policemen at a further degree of risk but then this is what they sign up for.

I should add that the option of a non-lethal takedown doesn't even seem to have been explored.

[Paladino]

You see stuff like this happening all the time and it is sickening, yet nothing will happen to the police man no doubt, a manslaughter charge ATLEAST should come with that.

[thatcountrykid]

I guess you missed my post:

Cops are trained to diffuse situations like this.


No. He took the gun in one hand from the waistband of his trousers. Most likely to help him indicate that the gun was fake. The police then shot - Disregarding the fact that he a) probably didn't understand the gravity of the situation to begin with and b) probably couldn't hit them if he tried. There wasn't a reasonable attempt made to diffuse the situation - see the article I have linked - but rather the police engaged in the "shoot first ask questions later" practice that I mentioned in my previous post. There was lots more that could have been done. It might have put the lives of the policemen at a further degree of risk but then this is what they sign up for.

I should add that the option of a non-lethal takedown doesn't even seem to have been explored.

No cops don't sign up to be the bullet monkeys of the community. We won't know if he would have hit them or not so that's a pointless argument. They didn't tell him to grab the gun. They probably were yelling hand up or along those lines. No one is to blame for this. It's no ones fault. Of course people jump at the officers. If like to see your stand there while somebody is grabbing what you think is a gun. See what you do

You see stuff like this happening all the time and it is sickening, yet nothing will happen to the police man no doubt, a manslaughter charge ATLEAST should come with that.


Manslaughter for what? Defending themselves and the community? They saw a weapon and fired the rest is for the investigators.

[Typhlosion]

Why did I have a feeling this would be on the Daily Chronicle...?

I guess you missed my post:

Cops are trained to diffuse situations like this.


No. He took the gun in one hand from the waistband of his trousers. Most likely to help him indicate that the gun was fake. The police then shot - Disregarding the fact that he a) probably didn't understand the gravity of the situation to begin with and b) probably couldn't hit them if he tried. There wasn't a reasonable attempt made to diffuse the situation - see the article I have linked - but rather the police engaged in the "shoot first ask questions later" practice that I mentioned in my previous post. There was lots more that could have been done. It might have put the lives of the policemen at a further degree of risk but then this is what they sign up for.

I should add that the option of a non-lethal takedown doesn't even seem to have been explored.

The only problem is that in the case you presented the man never showed any immediate violent response to the police beyond some cursing. He never pointed the gun at anyone and later complied to put the gun down. In the boy's case he never responded to the police's commands and became a threat when pulling out the fake gun from his pants. Plus, the kid was already pointing at people, and he was black, and neither of those will help in a situation like this.

[Babs]

No cops don't sign up to be the bullet monkeys of the community. We won't know if he would have hit them or not so that's a pointless argument. They didn't tell him to grab the gun. They probably were yelling hand up or along those lines. No one is to blame for this. It's no ones fault. Of course people jump at the officers. If like to see your stand there while somebody is grabbing what you think is a gun. See what you do




Manslaughter for what? Defending themselves and the community? They saw a weapon and fired the rest is for the investigators.

Cops very much can subdue the situation without killing.

Lance Tamyo of San Diego called police from the 2800 block of North Mission Bay Drive shortly after 11 a.m. Wednesday and told dispatchers he intended to shoot himself, SDPD Sgt. Manuel Del Toro said.

Patrol personnel arrived to find Tamyo sitting in his car in a parking area near De Anza Cove. They contacted him by phone and spoke with him for about 15 minutes before he agreed to surrender. He got out of the vehicle, but soon returned to it and retrieved a loaded 9mm pistol, the sergeant said.

Tamyo then "pointed his gun recklessly at various people in the park," at a police helicopter circling overhead and at the nearby officers, prompting one of them to shoot him in the abdomen, Del Toro alleged.

The suspect fell to the ground, but his gun remained within reach and he continued failing to comply with the officers' commands, Del Toro said. Finally, the personnel were able to subdue him with non-lethal rounds and take him into custody.


He was a white man waving his gun around small children and was taken into custody alive. He was shot, yes, but it was not lethal.

There are countless other news articles in which people are carrying REAL weapons, waving them around, and they get taken into custody ALIVE. Google it.

[Paladino]

He WONT be charged, I have heard today.

[James Dean]

Sad. The cop shouldn't have shot him, but he was doing his job really. I don't think the cop woke up wanting to kill a little boy. The boy probably got scared and waved the gun at the cop. Where were his parents thinking letting him go to a park alone with a prop gun?

[thatcountrykid]

Cops very much can subdue the situation without killing.



He was a white man waving his gun around small children and was taken into custody alive. He was shot, yes, but it was not lethal.

There are countless other news articles in which people are carrying REAL weapons, waving them around, and they get taken into custody ALIVE. Google it.

Obviously you know a lot about police tactics so enlighten me.

[Plane And Simple]

This is turning into a debate so...

VTDC :arrow2: ROTW

Keep it peaceful, okay?

[phuckphace]

the kid was a little shrimp, google a pic of him. any cop would know that a kid trying to fire a real high-caliber pistol (it was one of those fake airsoft Desert Eagles) would probably knock him flat on his back if he could even manage to squeeze the trigger to begin with.

[Miserabilia]

American police force is hilarious. "STOP RESISTING", while shooting someone 5 feet away repeatedly in the chest.
Honestly this s*t happens every day in most countries, and the usa have the habbit of doing absolutely nothing about it while at the same time having the media exploit it.

[Elliott_hn]

what the hell

[Babs]

Obviously you know a lot about police tactics so enlighten me.

This has nothing to do with police tactics. My point is, if they can take a man who was waving around a REAL gun into custody alive, they can take a child with a toy gun into custody, find out it wasn't a real gun, and let him go. if ~*Police Tactics*~ are for some reason more lethal for a child with a toy gun than for a man waving around an actual gun, then there is an issue.
It's about time to accept that the police force isn't perfect.

[Typhlosion]

This has nothing to do with police tactics. My point is, if they can take a man who was waving around a REAL gun into custody alive, they can take a child with a toy gun into custody, find out it wasn't a real gun, and let him go. if ~*Police Tactics*~ are for some reason more lethal for a child with a toy gun than for a man waving around an actual gun, then there is an issue.
It's about time to accept that the police force isn't perfect.

I don't know 100% about that second case, but that man was also shot. Please note that it's easier to survive a shot as an adult than a young kid. It's not like the kid was shot first thing in the head, either.

[Semi_IronMan]

That's so horrible, can't policemen tell the difference? And couldn't that situation been handled better? That's why I'm so against toy guns, these things should stop being manufactured.

[Paladino]

That's so horrible, can't policemen tell the difference? And couldn't that situation been handled better? That's why I'm so against toy guns, these things should stop being manufactured.

In the UK, toy/replica guns are marked with either green or blue or orange or something at certain parts of it so people know it isn't real, america should think of adapting to this for them too. The police that shot the boy is a fucking idiot and deserves to rot, imagine if it was a member of the public who owned a real gun and had license for it and seen someone with a toy gun roaming around and shot him thinking it was real? how long would he go down for?

[Semi_IronMan]

In the UK, toy/replica guns are marked with either green or blue or orange or something at certain parts of it so people know it isn't real, america should think of adapting to this for them too. The police that shot the boy is a fucking idiot and deserves to rot, imagine if it was a member of the public who owned a real gun and had license for it and seen someone with a toy gun roaming around and shot him thinking it was real? how long would he go down for?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that justice doesn't take place when policemen are the ones commiting the crimes. I also think that what the UK is doing with their toy guns is really clever, don't know why it's not done worldwide, but it should!... Then maybe we'll have less things to worry about, like : policemen(who are supposed to be protectors by the way) killing young children having toy guns because they think they're a threat

[Babs]

I don't know 100% about that second case, but that man was also shot. Please note that it's easier to survive a shot as an adult than a young kid. It's not like the kid was shot first thing in the head, either.

Yes, that's true, however there are still plenty of cases in which grown men were taken into custody alive, without being severely injured.
Regardless, this was just a child and he shouldn't have been shot. There are measures they can take to make sure a child isn't wrongfully killed, but they didn't.

[phuckphace]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that justice doesn't take place when policemen are the ones commiting the crimes. I also think that what the UK is doing with their toy guns is really clever, don't know why it's not done worldwide, but it should!... Then maybe we'll have less things to worry about, like : policemen(who are supposed to be protectors by the way) killing young children having toy guns because they think they're a threat

lol the last thing we need now is to waste even more time and resources regulating the sale of TOYS. the more sensible route would be to scale our society down and remove the excess that leads to these sort of incidences in the first place, getting better cops would go along with that.

[Paladino]

lol the last thing we need now is to waste even more time and resources regulating the sale of TOYS. the more sensible route would be to scale our society down and remove the excess that leads to these sort of incidences in the first place, getting better cops would go along with that.

I don't think it's a bad idea to do that, if the cops pass the training and exams or whatever then they are qualified to do the job so no one suspects them of doing wrong.

[Voodoo]

-- Alright I'm going to give my point of view from a Law Enforcement Officers point.

If a subject is carrying anything that resembles a fire arm WITH OR WITHOUT the orange tip at the end, and the subject attempts to pull the weapon in any way shape or form, points, or waves the weapon given the circumstances the Law Enfocement official has right to use deadly force under his preconditions.

1. The Subject had the capability (Yes it was a toy gun but, no way the officer can tell)

2. The Subject had the intent by pulling the weapon.

3. Oppertunity, the subject had the oppertunity to use the weapon.

--

REASONS FOR DEADLY FORCE BEING USED.

-- Inherent right to self-defense.
-- Defense of others


With all this being said, the shooting was a justified shooting. All of you who say that he should have shot to wound, it is actually illegal for a peace officer to shoot to wound. I myself have been drilled as a peace officer to shoot to kill. I am trianed two to the cheast one to the head. Police Officers have training on theses, yes this shooting is unfortunate but the kid shouldn't have had the toy gun.

[DeadEyes]

Only in the so called greatest country of the world, shooting a twelve years old boy can be considered usual.

[Paladino]

-- Alright I'm going to give my point of view from a Law Enforcement Officers point.

If a subject is carrying anything that resembles a fire arm WITH OR WITHOUT the orange tip at the end, and the subject attempts to pull the weapon in any way shape or form, points, or waves the weapon given the circumstances the Law Enfocement official has right to use deadly force under his preconditions.

1. The Subject had the capability (Yes it was a toy gun but, no way the officer can tell)

2. The Subject had the intent by pulling the weapon.

3. Oppertunity, the subject had the oppertunity to use the weapon.

--

REASONS FOR DEADLY FORCE BEING USED.

-- Inherent right to self-defense.
-- Defense of others


With all this being said, the shooting was a justified shooting. All of you who say that he should have shot to wound, it is actually illegal for a peace officer to shoot to wound. I myself have been drilled as a peace officer to shoot to kill. I am trianed two to the cheast one to the head. Police Officers have training on theses, yes this shooting is unfortunate but the kid shouldn't have had the toy gun.

Do you realise how stupid that sounds? A kid shouldn't have a TOY? I know I had toy guns when I was younger and so did most boys, no kid should be in danger for owning a toy gun. It is a fucking toy, maybe the americans should re-evaluate their gun laws and be more strict with trigger friendly "officers of the law"

Only in the so called greatest country of the world, shooting a twelve years old boy can be considered usual.

Key words here being "so called"

[Voodoo]

Do you realise how stupid that sounds? A kid shouldn't have a TOY? I know I had toy guns when I was younger and so did most boys, no kid should be in danger for owning a toy gun. It is a fucking toy, maybe the americans should re-evaluate their gun laws and be more strict with trigger friendly "officers of the law"



Alright, I never said a kid shouldn't have a toy. American gunlaws are actually fine. It's the fact that people do not understand in that split second we can not tell the difference between a real gun or a toy. I am an law-enforcment officer I was giving the reasons why the child was shot and most people seem to understand that but there is a selective part of the population that cannot grasp the fact that the officer shot due to safety and what was infront of him at the time.

Law-Enforcement is trained in shoot/don't shoot senarios, I myself have gone through count-less hours of theses. The trigger happy officer? I don't think you understand how real this fake firearm looked.. I've seen pictures of it, it looks exactly like the side-arm I carry daily. A Berretta M9 9mm pistol. This gun looks real, has no orange tip on the end with that being said; if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. When the kid pulled the fake gun, POINTED IT AT THE OFFICER, he then became a combative thusfore authorized use for deadlly force was authorized. That is why the kid was shot.

[Paladino]

I understand but if it was the other way about and the kid was a little older he would be prosecuted, thats the point I am making, the law protects police officers & it isn't fair, because a police can batter you black & blue and nothing will happen because people will believe him over you.

[Lovelife090994]

On Facebook and news sights everyone is blaming the parents and the kid. No one wants to blame the police. In Houston we have seen more cases of innocents (not the actual criminals) killed by police. In the past 5 years out of over 100 cases I think only one policeman was tried and sentenced but only for a few weeks, nothing major.

RIP to the boy. I feel this could have been avoided. Whether you agree with police or not I doubt the boy knew the gravity of the situation. They played the video here, there was no warning.