Existential and Moral Questioning

[The Trendy Wolf]

That is the name I assigned to the following journal entry I wrote during a period of continuous uncertainty during school. This passage is taken word-for-word.
Also, please note that I have not taken the time to clean any of the grammatical issues that may remain.
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In the end, and in due time, we will all be forgotten; even so, until then, we will all just be another story.

Why do we live lives of labor? Why not the pursuit of happiness instead? Our educational system to develop our intelligence and knowledge seems to only cloud this possibility. Let's all do what makes the child inside of us happy, and also do what we feel is natural. That way evolution will correct our flaws to the best of its ability without having to work out the rights and wrongs of the universe, a questioning brought about by humanity's development of morals and the teetering pedestal enveloped in a mass of fog which supports them.

We shouldn't be questioning our existence, because doing so will only lead us to insanity, and if not, false conclusions, many of which are portrayed in modern religions.

I no longer see a purpose without a passion. Without it I see no reason, and I would have to feign ignorance within my own mind in order to achieve such a task.

With what we have experienced in our lives, and us exclusively, we will require such an immense amount of stimulus and memory-wiping to achieve the goal of which I speak; we cannot forget what questions remain unanswered.

Perhaps this only comes with the depression, this feeling. It's possible that my lack of passion for understanding, which many believe to be a natural human desire and ambition, is a result of my clinical depression. Even so, what would my purpose be in that case? What would the purpose of tens-of-millions of people be in this world? Are we not human? Are we doomed to be stricken with no motivation? Why shouldn't we simply pursue what makes us feel happiness? It is these questions I ask with a scattered psyche and a delusional plea for sympathy, understanding, and answers.

A world like this would have no competition, no expectations, no signs of success or failure, and no questioning of what or how we are.

Something about it, all of this, doesn't feel right. There are holes in this proposal. I just don't know what is right and wrong, what's the good decision? I don't know if my desire to do good is a result of my human ambition, or if it is merely of the socially driven morals that we are so unknowingly susceptible to.

I just don't want to live my life not knowing if what I am doing is good, bad, or if it simply is without a label, and as a result, purposeless.

One cannot [continuously] live in the moment with consciousness, the knowledge of one's existence.
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I apologize if much of this is quite difficult to follow, as it is very unorganized.

Also, please read my post following this, as it provides greater insight into my difficulty.

[DeadEyes]

Our existences are indeed meaningless, perhaps for persons who may be close to us, our lives has a sentimental value and the story of our lives has some importance for them but beyond that, we are only grains of sands in this wide sandbox the universe is.
We do live lives of labor so those grains of sands can amalgamate in this society we created and the personal quest for happiness is in no way promoted, you either fit in or die trying.
We are self aware and will question our existence then, to the point of inventing ourselves reasons to exist, such as religion or realize that we are indeed meaningless. There is no return to innocence possible, there is no going back.
A lack of passion is very fitting for such a bleak and grim world, as much as I have been diagnosed with depression as well, I believe it goes farther and deeper than that.
This whole life and the state that we live in makes me sick, I do not feel down or sad, I am completely and totally sick and tired of this whole world and the people who inhabit it.
The desire to do good is indeed merely of the socially driven morals (there is another thread concerning that on this forum). I just don't want to live my life in such a purposeless way.

[The Trendy Wolf]

you either fit in or die trying.NOTE: Never have I used 'I' so much in a piece of writing, which hopefully shows my desperation for self-understanding rather than that which is around me. It's like my mind is collapsing in on itself, much like the collapse of a star.

Reminds me a lot of The Catcher in the Rye. Salinger did express that moderated conformity, if not minimal, will both ensure survival and provide the optimal amount of individuality.

I agree with this to the fullest extent, but questions still remain; I can't help but feel as though Atheism and my adoption of it that followed have doomed me to ask questions whose answers simply aren't there without religion. The problem is that I do not believe in a deity, but I'm compelled to say that if I had never been exposed to any beliefs other than those of monotheism then my life would have been, dare I say, perfect.

I feel like we're too intelligent for our own good. Self-destruction seems inevitable at this rate, and I know that a few people feel the same way. Many of them, I feel, are blinded by religion, and I know that that is a harsh way of saying so. Why do these questions just seem to destroy me instead of encourage me to discover them? Have my ambitiously mature tendencies of my latter-youth subsided due to the accumulating depression and anxiety from years prior?

I just see no purpose in taking part in society anymore. I want to watch everything go by and have my thoughts carry me along its own path that will end the same way it began in puberty: with uncertainty.

I have so much potential, as demonstrated by my rather advanced vocabulary for my age, but, regardless of that, I have no motivation with no religion, despite my personal certainty in the lack thereof, and my fatal flaw seems to be a reality.

I'm scared of what's going to happen to me, and that's not something I say often. However, at the same time, I have no care in the world over where I go or what I do because as long as I seemingly have no moral compass, how can I feel anything but indifference towards my decisions?

I'm just so confused...

[Horatio Nelson]

Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

I think this suits the question well.

[TroyH]

When I was a tad younger (I'm still only 19 now) I had many of the same thoughts. Not nearly as well articulated surely, nor as (dare I say) desperate as you have laid yours out to be. The world could be perfect if we all agreed with each other, but that'd be no fun. Differences in opinion are what have pushed the human race to the point we are at now.

I was brought up in an Atheist household so perhaps my situation is different than yours, but there is certainly a way to define a purpose for yourself as well as establish a moral compass. As far as a purpose goes, you have to give one to yourself. Mine is simple: do whatever makes me happy. An idea you touched upon, that's what I think people should spend their time doing. That, or dedicating their lives to making other people happy, a noble hobby. So just do what makes you happy, that is all. I'm sure there's something that you do from time to time that makes you smile. What is it? Do it more often!

As far as a moral compass goes, I've always thought this was fairly simple, but then as I said I was brought up an Atheist so I've basically just always followed the example of my parents. Treat others like you would like to be treated: a very simple and classic base for any moral compass. Other than that, discussion with trusted individuals about different issues, topics, and situations can help to guide you in the right direction as well.

That's all I've got right now. Forgive me for any grammatical mistakes as I was watching Borat videos (something that makes me happy) while writing this instead of doing my homework (something that would've made me decidedly unhappy).

[DeadEyes]

Ignorance is bliss.

[Kahn]

In the end, and in due time, we will all be forgotten; even so, until then, we will all just be another story.

We're people. Which isn't saying a lot. But we're human nonetheless, we each live individual lives. I think there's more to a life than a story.

Why do we live lives of labor? Why not the pursuit of happiness instead?

We lead lives of labor because it's necessary to. Happiness is fleeting, and so is sadness. They come and go and sometimes we experience the emotion for longer than we should, probably because we forget to keep in mind "hey, it's only temporary". You will never be happy permanently, and I'd go as far as saying you'll never be sad permanently either.

Our educational system to develop our intelligence and knowledge seems to only cloud this possibility.

Education, labor, and the general pursuit of knowledge are what put us in a position to be here today discussing this idea of yours. You think getting rid of these essential fundamentals would further the human race?

Let's all do what makes the child inside of us happy, and also do what we feel is natural.

If this were to actually happen we'd have sadists, sociopaths, and radicals wreaking whatever havoc possesses them at that present moment. Who would work, if they were given the choice to just relax at home and let someone else volunteer for them? What would constitute doing "what we feel is natural?"

That way evolution will correct our flaws to the best of its ability without having to work out the rights and wrongs of the universe, a questioning brought about by humanity's development of morals and the teetering pedestal enveloped in a mass of fog which supports them.

See, this is just a common misconception of basic biology. Evolution isn't some magical process that immediately eradicates whatever ailments or deficiencies a species might develop. It's a natural process that takes usually hundreds of thousands if not millions of years to finally develop a major, noticeable change.

As an extremely simple example, if for some reason in the future nature necessitated a human be tall to survive, mutation of our genome would occur slowly and over long periods of time as natural selection killed off the short over generations.

We shouldn't be questioning our existence, because doing so will only lead us to insanity, and if not, false conclusions, many of which are portrayed in modern religions.

"After much effort, as names, definitions, sights, and other data of sense, are brought into contact and friction one with another, in the course of scrutiny and kindly testing by men who proceed by question and answer without ill will, with a sudden flash there shines forth understanding about every problem, and an intelligence whose efforts reach the furthest limits of human powers."

I no longer see a purpose without a passion. Without it I see no reason, and I would have to feign ignorance within my own mind in order to achieve such a task.

Passion exists. You're afflicted by your passions each and every waking moment. The incredible thing here is that you seem to realize you're ignorant but choose to remain so, willfully perpetuating this narrow worldview of yours.

With what we have experienced in our lives, and us exclusively, we will require such an immense amount of stimulus and memory-wiping to achieve the goal of which I speak; we cannot forget what questions remain unanswered.

What goal?

Eh, not so. True, we're bombarded by media and forms of expression far more frequently nowadays then ever before in our history, but the amazing thing about people is they adapt. People naturally are adverse to change, but they'll undergo it nonetheless.

Perhaps this only comes with the depression, this feeling. It's possible that my lack of passion for understanding, which many believe to be a natural human desire and ambition, is a result of my clinical depression. Even so, what would my purpose be in that case? What would the purpose of tens-of-millions of people be in this world? Are we not human? Are we doomed to be stricken with no motivation? Why shouldn't we simply pursue what makes us feel happiness? It is these questions I ask with a scattered psyche and a delusional plea for sympathy, understanding, and answers.

Teenage angst would be your lack of motivation for the pursuit of knowledge and understanding. You really hate school it sounds like. Their method of learning isn't universal, you know. There are better, more interactive ways to learn, as well as better more passive ways to learn. American public school is literally a business, just like the Universities.

To answer the second half of that question/statement, tens-of-millions of people who have no motivation to learn or understand anything, who are left to their own devices to do whatever they please, would be a huge detriment to the rest of us who really, really, really like living in a stable society. Living in a stable society means doing your fair share. Whether that be in academy or the workforce is left up to you, but you can't choose just to "exist" because you lack the mettle to get focused.

A world like this would have no competition, no expectations, no signs of success or failure, and no questioning of what or how we are.

A world like this would lead to all sorts of perversions and barbarisms, catastrophes and horrors. Sadists and sociopaths would do as they please and criminals and thugs would exploit those who are truly trying to live "for the child inside of them." Any global cohesion we feel right now would be lost instantly and humanity would be plunged into a second, probably worse, Dark Age.

I just don't know what is right and wrong, what's the good decision? I don't know if my desire to do good is a result of my human ambition, or if it is merely of the socially driven morals that we are so unknowingly susceptible to.

I just don't want to live my life not knowing if what I am doing is good, bad, or if it simply is without a label, and as a result, purposeless.[/I]

Nobody will ever sit you down and say "this is your purpose. You were put on this Earth do execute this task and once you fulfill it you will be eternally happy." Life is an experience, and you need to take it as it comes. You can't rush it. I know I tried to.

"Begin each day by telling yourself: Today I shall be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness – all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good or evil. But for my part I have long perceived the nature of good and its nobility, the nature of evil and its meanness, and also the nature of the culprit himself, who is my brother (not in the physical sense, but as a fellow creature similarly endowed with reason and a share of the divine); therefore none of those things can injure me, for nobody can implicate me in what is degrading. Neither can I be angry with my brother or fall foul of him; for he and I were born to work together, like a man’s two hands, feet or eyelids, or the upper and lower rows of his teeth. To obstruct each other is against Nature’s law – and what is irritation or aversion but a form of obstruction."

[CharlieHorse]

I feel the same way.
I feel like I'm a filthy product of society. My mind has been created by the people around me.
And I am but one human in this world of billions. I am so insignificant, and my problems and life are so insignificant, that living the way everyone else does doesn't matter. I have no purpose except to fulfill my simple human instincts to which I am programmed by genetics and brain connections.
I'm hardly an intelligent being. I just do what I've been created to do.
And with life being so short, what's the point of living through life without being happy? Happiness is what drives us animals, and if depression will always skew your mind, then essentially your whole existence is skewed, and beyond one's control.
Why do I continue to live if the only things I live for will just cease to exist like everything else?
Why do I matter?

[DeadEyes]

In this matter, everyone always assume that your life will eventually get better and that depression is only temporary.
All I can say is it's one optimistic point of view, why would your life necessarily get better and not worse? Why would being stuck in a pit so deep be temporary?
Perhaps there is a way, maybe if you fight harder you will be in a better state of mind towards life but now, what's the use of it? Does it really worth working so incredibly hard to fit in this world?
Call me pessimistic, nihilistic, misanthropic, fatalist, defeatist all you want: the truth is it's not worth it for me. If you want to be happy go for it, work as hard as you can to achieve happiness and go on, live it out in this so called wonderful world but don't ask me to do the same.
I'm I saying life is not worth living? Not at all actually but the issue is you might have your content of living and I had mine. Age is just a number and maturity along with insight can come much sooner in life for some than others and when someone dare telling me I'm still young, I couldn't be more insulted.
We have to find our own purpose and nobody will do it for us: I completely agree with that. But what if I do not care to find a purpose? What if I don't want to have to deal with this world anymore? Should I have a choice?

[Kahn]

In this matter, everyone always assume that your life will eventually get better and that depression is only temporary.
All I can say is it's one optimistic point of view, why would your life necessarily get better and not worse? Why would being stuck in a pit so deep be temporary?
Perhaps there is a way, maybe if you fight harder you will be in a better state of mind towards life but now, what's the use of it? Does it really worth working so incredibly hard to fit in this world?

"Gosh, I sure am hungry. It really would be nice to get up and cook some food, I mean, I can just picture my future, full-belly and all... But... so much bad can happen during the period of time between me getting up from my computer and me cooking food. I might as well just sit here and starve until somebody notices how much I'm struggling (because my struggle is overbearing, you wouldn't understand, trust me, take my word for it, I simply lack the constitution to stand up on my own two feet) and they take it upon themselves to get to the kitchen to cook for me. That's fair, right? Because I'd totally cook for someone else, especially an apathetic, amoral, distanced individual who sees no point in living, but only if I wanted to, but I don't want to, so I wouldn't. Woe is me, woe is me, I wish life were just this easy."

Call me pessimistic, nihilistic, misanthropic, fatalist, defeatist all you want: the truth is it's not worth it for me. If you want to be happy go for it, work as hard as you can to achieve happiness and go on, live it out in this so called wonderful world but don't ask me to do the same.

I could call you all those things and more because it's justified, but I'd use the word ignorant before any of one of those terms. I will continue working towards a brighter future, for myself and everyone around me. You should as well. What's really stopping you?

Am* I saying life is not worth living? Not at all actually

Interesting, you did just say that.

Call me pessimistic, nihilistic, misanthropic, fatalist, defeatist all you want: the truth is it's not worth it for me.

but the issue is you might have your content of living and I had mine.

Yes, yes, the "you don't know me, you don't know my story!" justification of apathy and complacence.

Age is just a number and maturity along with insight can come much sooner in life for some than others and when someone dare telling me I'm still young, I couldn't be more insulted.

True. But then again, experience is invaluable and I feel confident in my assumption that life has yet to put you, let alone myself, through its toughest trials.

Why are you insulted, again?

We have to find our own purpose and nobody will do it for us: I completely agree with that. But what if I do not care to find a purpose? What if I don't want to have to deal with this world anymore? Should I have a choice?

Life isn't worth living, yet you "completely" agree that we must find our own purpose and that nobody will do it for us. This pursuit, however good or noble or necessary, isn't deemed worthy of life to you, and thus you may "not want to deal with this world?" And then you ask if you should have a choice?

I mean, you don't really have much of a choice. This is the world you live in, like it or not, and you really can't just choose to simply exist complacently, without labor, unless you're sitting on an endless supply of money. Don't be insulted. That's the truth. Get used to it, boyo.

What you choose to do with your life, how you choose to go about personal growth and care, that's completely your perogative. I'm not here to validate anything or prove to you that life is a blessing (no not in the strictly religious sense, before you get your panties in a bunch). I'm not here to tell you how to be happy or how to live your life. I'm no more of an authority on the matter than you.

I do feel obligated to say when I feel an individual is mistaken, and I feel strongly that your defeatist, fatalist, misnathopic, nihlistic, pessimistic worldview isn't uncommon amongst the youth of our nation. We can't afford to sit back and say "fuck the world, fuck everything" because one day we'll inherit it all, and it'll be ours to maintain.

[ImCoolBeans]

I have deleted the majority of posts in this thread since it became a bash-fest. That's not acceptable and I hope that the rest of this thread can be debated in a civil manner. Do not personally attack members or instigate fights, you know who you are.

[audiophile5]

My personal opinion - based on my recent reading (Nietzsche, Cioran, Schopenhaur) is that life is but a continuous form of suffering from which one cannot escape. True, there are many who simply cannot comprehend or do not try and comprehend the world around them, thus they exist in a sea of happiness and bliss. And lately, most of the people are like that. The others, those who come to question life and actually take a moment and analyze it see only sadness and disappointment. True, to quote Nietzsche: "About life, the wisest men of all ages have come to the same conclusion: it is no good."

Another philosopher I really enjoy reading is Emil Cioran (he was romanian, but mainly lived and was published in France) says that the whole of existence - even outside the limits of our own lives - is a continuous suffering. Before our birth there's suffering, during our lives, we suffer, after we die, suffering is still there (this is one of the reasons he gives for not taking his own life - since it would not put and end to the suffering)..

It is a bit pessimistic, but I don't really think one can be optimistic when discussing such themes.
Here's a paragraph from one of Cioran's books, On the heights of despair:

the conviction that you cannot escape an implacable fate and that time will do nothing but unfold the dramatic process of destruction is an expression of irrevocable agony. isn't nothingness, then, salvation? but how can there be salvation in nothingness? if salvation is nearly impossible through existence, how can it be possible through the complete absence of existence?
since there is no salvation either in existence or in nothingness, let this world with its eternal laws be smashed to pieces!