Origins of Morals

[CosmicNoodle]

Most people have morals of some description. But there is always argument about where they came from, some people believe they are from whatever god they believe in, some people believe they are simply social construct, others believe each person is born with a sense of "right and wrong".

Me and a friend where talking about this today, we decided between us that to us the most logical answer seems that they are a social construct, a product of evolution, each decision a person makes usually has a good and bad output, for instance, jumping off a cliff has a bad output, but eating an apple has a good one. We thought that morals are basically this, logical decision, but based on a social structure, for instance, what works best, in an evolutionary manner in a social setting. (meaning what will allow you to prosper in a social setting, something necessary for reproduction)

We had to do something so the conversation didn't really go much more than that, but I wish it would have because it feels there is a lot more to it than simple that, so I thought I'd bring it here.

What do you guys think?


(for the love of fuck don't any of you dare start a flame war, I've had enough of that today and I'm sick of it (ye, me of all people, hypocritical I know), please keep it civil, just respect other peoples views)

[Horatio Nelson]

I know nobody agrees with me, but I believe it comes from religion, specifically Christianity.


Society without religious moral standards is a pretty barbaric place.

[CosmicNoodle]

I know nobody agrees with me, but I believe it comes from religion, specifically Christianity.

Don't worry, there's a warning, no one will be a dick.

Society without religious moral standards is a pretty barbaric place.

But what of places like the UK? We are nearly all Atheist here and if anything we are less barbaric than places like the US, a place riddled with religious people. Here religion is tiny, Atheism is huge, yet we are a very civil and place, more so than most of the rest of the world, in fact, most of the most civil places on earth have a large majority of atheists.
For instance, Sweden, only 23% (ish, citation needed) of people believe in a god, yet I think we can all agree that it's one of best, most civil and sensible country's on earth.

But your opinion is your opinion, so long as your a decent human being for some reason I don't see why anyone would care where you think your morals come from.

[Typhlosion]

But what of places like the UK? We are nearly all Atheist here and if anything we are less barbaric than places like the US, a place riddled with religious people. Here religion is tiny, Atheism is huge, yet we are a very civil and place, more so than most of the rest of the world, in fact, most of the most civil places on earth have a large majority of atheists.
For instance, Sweden, only 23% (ish, citation needed) of people believe in a god, yet I think we can all agree that it's one of best, most civil and sensible country's on earth.

But your opinion is your opinion, so long as your a decent human being for some reason I don't see why anyone would care where you think your morals come from.

I'd argue against that specific line of reasoning, since modern England has been heavily influenced by christianity. An atheistic society could/would be carrying morality from the christians before them.

Of course, you could analyze pretty much any pre-christian society and infer that morality is not necessarily christian, or even from a higher power.

[Kate]

Sounds like you have a moral nihilist standpoint. I think morality is a mix of societal influences along with pre-installed ethics. During the time of slavery in the US, for example, it was the norm in society to own slaves and many people didn't think it was wrong (contrary to today's societal beliefs), but there were still the abolitionists who believed that owning another human was immoral even though many others didn't believe so.

[DeadEyes]

Definitely social construct, since religion is a product of society anyway, but it's mostly based on common sense (or the lact of it) of those who dictate what should be morally acceptable in society or not.
I definitely don't think we are born with a sense of right and wrong, we mostly are cruel and primal, just look at kids teasing each others in a school courtyard, I don't think they realize they are doing something wrong.

[Horatio Nelson]

But what of places like the UK? We are nearly all Atheist here and if anything we are less barbaric than places like the US, a place riddled with religious people. Here religion is tiny, Atheism is huge, yet we are a very civil and place, more so than most of the rest of the world, in fact, most of the most civil places on earth have a large majority of atheists.
For instance, Sweden, only 23% (ish, citation needed) of people believe in a god, yet I think we can all agree that it's one of best, most civil and sensible country's on earth.

But your opinion is your opinion, so long as your a decent human being for some reason I don't see why anyone would care where you think your morals come from.

I understand your point. But belief has nothing to do with it.

I think religion has forever changed society for the better.

Atheists may not believe in God but they have morals.

For example, the Ten Commandments, an example of morals coming from religion. I don't think evolution is the factor behind moralism.

[CosmicNoodle]

I understand your point. But belief has nothing to do with it.

I think religion has forever changed society for the better.

What of the scientific oppression, homophobia, bigotry, sexism ect ect?

Atheists may not believe in God but they have morals.

For example, the Ten Commandments, an example of morals coming from religion. I don't think evolution is the factor behind moralism.

You can ask people in the street the ten commandments, most of them won't know them, people are able to come to a conclusion about what is right and wrong without the ten commandments, I don't know most of them, or even care about them yet I live a perfectly moral life.

[Lovelife090994]

Morals are by God above all. You can't know love if you don't know God. That's what Christians are taught and we are taught to be moral above all. Morality is something few people have anymore so it's understandable that religion influences morality. The Ten Commandments are a set of morals mirrored all throughout the world.

[Gigablue]

For example, the Ten Commandments, an example of morals coming from religion. I don't think evolution is the factor behind moralism.

Not only do most people not even know all the commandments, let alone derive their morality from them, the ten commandments are not particularly moral. Several are irrelevant to morality, banning other religions, idolatry, working on the sabbath, etc. These are not moral issues. The commandments that deal with morality are generally good, albeit rather obvious, but they lack nuance. Killing, for example, can be justified when in self defence, but the commandment doesn't say that. It simply says never to kill. Notably absent from the commandments are prohibitions against rape, slavery (which is endorsed in other parts of the bible) and countless other atrocities.

Evolutionary psychology is a somewhat dubious field, since we have yet to find a way to test its predictions. However, the idea that evolution influenced morality is fairly well established. Morality is just another function of the brain. Evolution has influenced all aspects of our cognition, including morality. It's not hard to see why having some basic moral prohibitions and obligations would help a society.

[Typhlosion]

Morals are by God above all. You can't know love if you don't know God. That's what Christians are taught and we are taught to be moral above all. Morality is something few people have anymore so it's understandable that religion influences morality. The Ten Commandments are a set of morals mirrored all throughout the world.

Am I the only one who doubts that the 1st, 2nd, and 4th commandments are surely not mirrored throughout the whole world?

Also, how can one not have any morality? How can one have no judgment on what is right or wrong, even if the source of such morality is from themselves only?

[Stronk Serb]

I have a somewhat distorted moral compass. I lack empathy owards some people. I'd let some people die and not bother to shed a tear while for some I would shed my blood (not that it went that far). The main thing which keeps me from hurting people other than myself is the little bit of empathy I have, punishment and logical thinking. It still means I'm a somewhat hateful person.

[DeadEyes]

Morals are by God above all. You can't know love if you don't know God.

I know god, I know god is an illusion. Every divinity there is was created by men, it has much more power to dictate your law and morals when you pretend it was foretold by some kind of higher being.
Love, is an emotion and like all emotions, it's a chemical reaction of the brain and has nothing to do with anything supernatural.

I have a somewhat distorted moral compass. I lack empathy owards some people. I'd let some people die and not bother to shed a tear while for some I would shed my blood (not that it went that far). The main thing which keeps me from hurting people other than myself is the little bit of empathy I have, punishment and logical thinking. It still means I'm a somewhat hateful person.

Empathy, another chemical reaction of the brain. Once you know all of these emotions are all systematically stimulated by the notorious reasons, you can simply detach yourself from them.
I used to be over sensitive and have a lot of empathy, now I have the morals of a psychopath. You can set your own moral code, the only thing that can make you comply is the law.

[CosmicNoodle]

I have a somewhat distorted moral compass. I lack empathy owards some people. I'd let some people die and not bother to shed a tear while for some I would shed my blood (not that it went that far). The main thing which keeps me from hurting people other than myself is the little bit of empathy I have, punishment and logical thinking. It still means I'm a somewhat hateful person.

I too have a somewhat distorted moral compass.

Morals are by God above all. You can't know love if you don't know God.

I have people I know and deeply love, and I refuse to even entertain the idea of god. Your hypothesis is incorrect

That's what Christians are taught and we are taught to be moral above all.

"we"...so you ARE Christian? You told me you where not, you lied then, hmm, surprising. And if you guys where truly moral explain the oppression, sexism, and bigotry, please do, I'm interested to understand how that counts as moral

Morality is something few people have anymore

Again, incorrect, most people have morals. We live in an ever more civil community, yet you claim we have less morals than ever?
#Christian-logic

so it's understandable that religion influences morality. The Ten Commandments are a set of morals mirrored all throughout the world.

Wrong, so, so, so wrong. Most religious folk on earth are of DIFFERENT religions, that don't follow your imaginary rules. They are simply a set made for Christianity, and not even followed by most Christians, ask most Christians to name them and they can't



Your argument sounds like the generic, easy to pick apart one used for decades by Christians.

[Lovelife090994]

I too have a somewhat distorted moral compass.




Your argument sounds like the generic, easy to pick apart one used for decades by Christians.

Haha, almost. You didn't get that at all. My argument is tbat religion aids in morals and that God is love. Lately I doubt my faith so I didn't lie.

[CosmicNoodle]

Haha, almost. You didn't get that at all. My argument is tbat religion aids in morals and that God is love. Lately I doubt my faith so I didn't lie.

So one second your Christian and the next your "spiritualist"...urmm...ok, fair enough, at least you had the though to criticise your beliefs. For that I congratulate you.
If religion aids in morals, you have yet to explain why religion has so many bad qualitys? God is not love, if he/she exists, he/she is a hateful, cruel, sexist, bigoted prick who doesn't deserve my time. In my opinion.

[DeadEyes]

Haha, almost. You didn't get that at all. My argument is tbat religion aids in morals and that God is love. Lately I doubt my faith so I didn't lie.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the men who wrote the bible had nothing good to put in it, all I'm saying is they put that in, but it's no god who told them to.
God is love they say, but the vengeful god portrayed in the bible is everything but love.

God is not love, if he/she exists, he/she is a hateful, cruel, sexist, bigoted prick who doesn't deserve my time.

That's what I meant by everything but love.

[Lovelife090994]

So one second your Christian and the next your "spiritualist"...urmm...ok, fair enough, at least you had the though to criticise your beliefs. For that I congratulate you.
If religion aids in morals, you have yet to explain why religion has so many bad qualitys? God is not love, if he/she exists, he/she is a hateful, cruel, sexist, bigoted prick who doesn't deserve my time. In my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the men who wrote the bible had nothing good to put in it, all I'm saying is they put that in, but it's no god who told them to.
God is love they say, but the vengeful god portrayed in the bible is everything but love.

And yet neither of you show love? Love, it doesn't exist. And God is of love but his followers seem demented and oppressive. Then again it's so hard to find real Christians these days. And hate God but he won't hate you. The problens of Earth are by man. Te Earth is ours to control and we blew it. Christianity has a great message, I just want another more broader approach.

[DeadEyes]

And God is of love but his followers seem demented and oppressive.

So, you are saying the Apostles who wrote the bible supposedly by the word of god given by Jesus, those who give this vengeful depiction of god in the book, are demented?
Basically, my point was the morals in the bible is simply morals created by men.

[Lovelife090994]

So, you are saying the Apostles who wrote the bible supposedly by the word of god given by Jesus, those who give this vengeful depiction of god in the book, are demented?

The followers show to be. But then again all humans are messed up on my opinion. Religion just acts as a catalyst.

[CosmicNoodle]

And yet neither of you show love?

I do show love, to people I LIKE.

Love, it doesn't exist.

You must be a very, very lonely person.

And God is of love but his followers seem demented and oppressive. Then again it's so hard to find real Christians these days.

Unless you oppress women, and refuse to wear cotton with other fabrics (yes, they are actual rules in the bible) then your not a "real" Christian. To be honest, "real" Christians sound like wankers, I much prefer the modern day family friendly ones.

And hate God but he won't hate you. The problens of Earth are by man.

There'd be a lot less problems if there where less people like you.

Te Earth is ours to control and we blew it.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uxsUO0GB1RQ/Tl2RDrmZDzI/AAAAAAAAN5k/X6ateCtP_vs/s1600/Statue-of-Liberty-Planet-of-the-Apes-closing-scene.JPG
They blew it up! Damn you! Damn you all to hell!!!

Christianity has a great message, I just want another more broader approach.

Sexism, bigotry, homophobia...yup...wholesome, family friendly message right there.


-_- .......

[DeadEyes]

The followers show to be. But then again all humans are messed up on my opinion. Religion just acts as a catalyst.

Religion is simply the reflect of the flawed humanity, and god is not here (or anywhere that is).
Which brings me back to what I was saying:

Every divinity there is was created by men, it has much more power to dictate your law and morals when you pretend it was foretold by some kind of higher being

Any morals there is and ever was is a creation of men.

[Miserabilia]

I have yet to ever see a logical, reasonal, or substantial argument for what a moral is/where morals arise, if not from humans ourselves.
It's the most obvious answer, and I've never seen proof that it's not the case.
Yes, who knows? Perhaps aliens landed on earth and whispered to us that killing people is not such a great idea, perhaps it's our survival instinct or a social construct.

[DeadEyes]

Definitely social construct, since religion is a product of society anyway

Basically, my point was the morals in the bible is simply morals created by men.

Any morals there is and ever was is a creation of men.

It's the most obvious answer, and I've never seen proof that it's not the case.

Exactly, the bible is no proof nor historical evidence: those ten commandments were written by men.

[Lovelife090994]

-_- .......

Religion is simply the reflect of the flawed humanity, and god is not here (or anywhere that is).
Which brings me back to what I was saying:



Any morals there is and ever was is a creation of men.

I can't believe you turned it into that or believed me. I am not into any of it or the idea of morals. I think morals are innate but we don't all have them.

[Paladino]

I think morals are a natural thing that come to us, we know the difference between right and wrong, apart from some people among us.

[DeadEyes]

I think morals are innate but we don't all have them.

I think morals are a natural thing that come to us, we know the difference between right and wrong, apart from some people among us.

I definitely don't think we are born with a sense of right and wrong, we mostly are cruel and primal, just look at kids teasing each others in a school courtyard, I don't think they realize they are doing something wrong.

It's most definitely not an innate natural thing.