wbere do you stand on jehovahs witnesses...

[Broken Toy]

Right so before i start, can we not attack religions and stuff because i don't want this to get locked.

What does everyone think of jehovah's witnesses' stance on organ donation.

As far as i know, all jw's believe this. They wouldn't allow their child organ, blood, or bone marrow donation as their bodies will become impure and wont go to heaven (correct me on this, im generally good with religion but don't pay attention to jw's)

I personally think that putting yourself at deaths door to stay 'pure' and going to heaven early is something i don't agree with anyway, but to make that decision for your child to die when they otherwise wouldn't is quite cruel

What do you think about it?

[Neverender]

If a child dies because their Jehovah's Witness parents refuse or fail to get that child to a hospital for a vital blood infusion or Organ transplant, then that's the last thing those parents should ever be allowed to do outside of prison.

If someone seriously believes their child's death would be preferable to their child living and going to hell, based solely on religious doctrine, I'd seriously question their sanity. Were I a judge I've have them checked for delusions in a psychiatric ward.

[Karkat]

LOL I'm not going to go into it, because I don't have all the facts myself, but JW don't believe in going to heaven. I'd suggest getting your facts straight before putting them out there.

What's actually true: JW believe that 144,000 will go to heaven to rule with Jehovah, Jesus, and the angels.

These 144,000 are called "The Anointed", and none of them are children. In fact, hardly any of them are still alive.

All other JW who would make it past Armageddon would live on a repurposed earth of sorts (No pollution, etc.) and live forever as perfect humans (in repurposed bodies; no illness, etc.).

What they do not believe: "I'm going to heaven when I die if I'm good"

I'd suggest doing some actual research before raising a question like this. Sorry.

[TheN3rdyOutcast]

All I know is when they show up at my door, I pretend to not be home.

[PinkFloyd]

If a child dies because their Jehovah's Witness parents refuse or fail to get that child to a hospital for a vital blood infusion or Organ transplant, then that's the last thing those parents should ever be allowed to do outside of prison.

If someone seriously believes their child's death would be preferable to their child living and going to hell, based solely on religious doctrine, I'd seriously question their sanity. Were I a judge I've have them checked for delusions in a psychiatric ward.

100% agreed. People that "pray" for their son's or daughter's Leukemia to go away on it's own disgust me. It's one thing to practice your religion, but to let your child die because you believe in "Christ healing him/her," then you should be put in prison.

[Karkat]

100% agreed. People that "pray" for their son's or daughter's Leukemia to go away on it's own disgust me. It's one thing to practice your religion, but to let your child die because you believe in "Christ healing him/her," then you should be put in prison.

Which, is once again, not what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.

I know that they don't accept blood transfusions, but they do accept organs and blood substitutes I'm pretty sure, and aside from that, they believe in modern medicine.

...So everyone either needs to stop discussing JW, and only the topic at hand, or actually research the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.

This is all a bit like saying "Alright, we know that Pagans worship Satan, how do you feel about this?" Either you talk about people who worship Satan, or you talk about Pagans, like this whole thread is somewhat pointless.

This is in ROTW, if I'm not mistaken. Which is a debate forum. Ergo, this is a debate thread. Is there a point in debating misinformation?

[Sir Suomi]

Yeah had some knock on my door, told em no thanks, hail satan, the whole drag, and none of them have showed up again.

[Horatio Nelson]

Which, is once again, not what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.

I know that they don't accept blood transfusions, but they do accept organs and blood substitutes I'm pretty sure, and aside from that, they believe in modern medicine.

...So everyone either needs to stop discussing JW, and only the topic at hand, or actually research the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.

This is all a bit like saying "Alright, we know that Pagans worship Satan, how do you feel about this?" Either you talk about people who worship Satan, or you talk about Pagans, like this whole thread is somewhat pointless.

This is in ROTW, if I'm not mistaken. Which is a debate forum. Ergo, this is a debate thread. Is there a point in debating misinformation?


Honestly I can't agree more.

I won't give my opinion on their doctrines and what they practice, but this thread is completely pointless.

[Lovelife090994]

Technically the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses don't align to Christianity and the fact that they go door to door makes people think all Christians do this. But the organ-doning thing, I have never heard of such a thing and I know a Jehovah's Witness.

[Stronk Serb]

I know a girl in Germany was sick with some deadly disease a few years back. Her parents were Jehova's Witnesses and they didn't get her treatment. They actually took her to Austria so that the state doesn't confiscate the child. The poor girl died.

[Plane And Simple]

You know I'd gladly invite a JW for coffee to hear this. Im really interested on what they believe even though I'm not changing to their stuff.

[Karkat]

I know a girl in Germany was sick with some deadly disease a few years back. Her parents were Jehova's Witnesses and they didn't get her treatment. They actually took her to Austria so that the state doesn't confiscate the child. The poor girl died.

Then they weren't actually Jehovah's Witnesses, or you didn't get the full story.

Once again: Jehovah's Witnesses believe in modern medicine. This is kind of like saying "All Christians must be racist against blacks because of the KKK". That's one isolated incident, and even then, it's heresay- not even an article or something.

Yeah had some knock on my door, told em no thanks, hail satan, the whole drag, and none of them have showed up again.

That's pretty appalling behavior. No wonder Christians tend to hate atheists. A simple "please don't come back" would've sufficed.

[ksdnfkfr]

All I know is when they show up at my door, I pretend to not be home.

My dad drew a chalk outline of a body on our doorstep and put a couple of Watchtower pamphlets next to it....they haven't bothered us since....

click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2928539&postcount=162)

[Stronk Serb]

They came on my door two times. First time I said I wasn't interested. Next time I opened the door wearing a pentagram necklace and told them that they should stop.

[Dalcourt]

All I know is when they show up at my door, I pretend to not be home.

Lol, so true couldn't have said it better.
Honestly, my knowledge about this religion is very vague, so I don't really have an opinion about them, although I have heard about the blood donation etc. stuff and feel it's not right...for me parents not letting their kids have all the medical treatment that could save their life is a form of abuse....no matter what the religious beliefs are.

[Christen]

i think its not just a problem of jehovas witnesses but with many religious factions. they made rules and those cant be changed in their opinion.
but our knowledge changes constantly.
maybe just wishfull thinking but maybe those factions should consider a sort of update of the rules when the knowledgebase changes.
like with muslims and jews where rules prohibit pork meat for food.
at the time they made the rules it made sense as the meat could make sick of trichomia (or how its spelled little worms in the meat).
at the time they had a reason to prohibit an actual danger - nowadays the meat is no danger any more so the rule agains is sorta outdated but its kept up.

[Broken Toy]

Guys i actually said in the original post, correct me if im wrong. I haven't researched them much as i do not care for their beliefs. I value them but have no interest in learning them. I have researched Islam and Christianity as i do agree with some areas. I don't think i would say the same about jw.

Next time you want to correct someone maybe acting like their stupid isn't necessary you know.

And i only made the thread to question what people think about how some of them don't let their children have blood transfusions and thing like that. Jw are controversial

[Neverender]

I know that they don't accept blood transfusions, but they do accept organs and blood substitutes I'm pretty sure, and aside from that, they believe in modern medicine.

...So everyone either needs to stop discussing JW, and only the topic at hand, or actually research the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I'm not only discussing the Jehovah's Witnesses (although they have had children die as a result of not getting blood transfusions, so I've already got the maximum deposition and contempt I can hold towards them), as the premise of the Thread, although it specifies JW, is equally valid to any religion where beliefs are held stronger than science or medicine. Even some mainstream denominations with rabid followers.

However, since I think everyone responding to this thread is considering any religious cults and sects, and not just the JW which is given as an example in the title, is concerned with the scenario that group X would rather let children die than get lifesaving treatment, as opposed to group Y. I don't care about the specificity of any particular religion be it the Jehovah's Witness or whatever. It doesn't matter what the little internal specifics of a Religion say, if it produces the same net result of negligence causing death upon the parent for putting beliefs ahead of Medicine.

[Karkat]

Guys i actually said in the original post, correct me if im wrong. I haven't researched them much as i do not care for their beliefs. I value them but have no interest in learning them. I have researched Islam and Christianity as i do agree with some areas. I don't think i would say the same about jw.

Next time you want to correct someone maybe acting like their stupid isn't necessary you know.

And i only made the thread to question what people think about how some of them don't let their children have blood transfusions and thing like that. Jw are controversial

In that case, you shouldn't have specified JW. I'm not trying to act as if you're stupid, in fact I think to say that is overly sensitive of you. I was just stating the facts. That didn't need to be included as it is not necessarily relevant and just provides room for debate over misinformation.

I'm not only discussing the Jehovah's Witnesses (although they have had children die as a result of not getting blood transfusions, so I've already got the maximum deposition and contempt I can hold towards them), as the premise of the Thread, although it specifies JW, is equally valid to any religion where beliefs are held stronger than science or medicine. Even some mainstream denominations with rabid followers.

However, since I think everyone responding to this thread is considering any religious cults and sects, and not just the JW which is given as an example in the title, is concerned with the scenario that group X would rather let children die than get lifesaving treatment, as opposed to group Y. I don't care about the specificity of any particular religion be it the Jehovah's Witness or whatever. It doesn't matter what the little internal specifics of a Religion say, if it produces the same net result of negligence causing death upon the parent for putting beliefs ahead of Medicine.

I wasn't so much questioning your post as I was OP's. If I had a bone to pick with your post, I would've quoted it.

This thread has essentially turned into more of a "let's make fun of JW" than anything. Part of that reason being that the original facts at hand aren't so... Factual, and no one cares enough about the religion itself to actually have a decent discussion based on the religion itself. As for the TOPIC at hand, well, you're one of like two or three people who have contributed any. ANY. I'm not included because I haven't debated the actual topic, because I don't like to get into religious opinion threads. (I'm really only here to set matters straight because ugh.)

[Broken Toy]

In that case, you shouldn't have specified JW. I'm not trying to act as if you're stupid, in fact I think to say that is overly sensitive of you. I was just stating the facts. That didn't need to be included as it is not necessarily relevant and just provides room for debate over misinformation.



I wasn't so much questioning your post as I was OP's. If I had a bone to pick with your post, I would've quoted it.

This thread has essentially turned into more of a "let's make fun of JW" than anything. Part of that reason being that the original facts at hand aren't so... Factual, and no one cares enough about the religion itself to actually have a decent discussion based on the religion itself. As for the TOPIC at hand, well, you're one of like two or three people who have contributed any. ANY. I'm not included because I haven't debated the actual topic, because I don't like to get into religious opinion threads. (I'm really only here to set matters straight because ugh.)


IM 15 and bad at Religious studies. I made a wrong statement. Still people aren't actually talking about my problem with them, at least a decent amount of them will refuse their children blood transfusions. Theyre taking a child's life in their hands. It doesn't seem ethical.

[Karkat]

IM 15 and bad at Religious studies. I made a wrong statement. Still people aren't actually talking about my problem with them, at least a decent amount of them will refuse their children blood transfusions. Theyre taking a child's life in their hands. It doesn't seem ethical.

You made a wrong statement as the entire premise of your thread. As a result, a lot of people are (inevitably) using it as a "hey I don't know much about JW so I'll share a funny and possibly immature example of how much I dislike them"

I'm not trying to place the blame on you per se- this would've happened in a completely factual debate on JW. Because for whatever reason, religions like LDS and JW are made out to be like jokes even in debate forums. Actually, basically any religion except Christianity (I wonder why...) is taken to be either extremist or backwards. If not both.

As if Christianity isn't capable if being extremist or backwards.

Point being that this thread is already doing a terrible job of staying on topic. It's not entirely your fault, but idk, maybe a suggestion for next time would be to make it more generalized to the topic at hand (without bringing in a certain group of people unless it's TOTALLY applicable), and making sure that the information in your premise is at least relatively true (because a lot of people will base their initial arguments for either side off of what you say as well.)

[Neverender]

IM 15 and bad at Religious studies. I made a wrong statement. Still people aren't actually talking about my problem with them, at least a decent amount of them will refuse their children blood transfusions. Theyre taking a child's life in their hands. It doesn't seem ethical.

That's possibly the worst thing you could have said to pick up the pieces of this thread.

You could have used this post as a way to get away from your title thread and make it about all nutty religious sects, not just the example you provided in the JW. However, responding "Still people aren't actually talking about my problem with them", that will only make people angrier and will further distract them from the actual purpose of this thread, which is to argue the merits (if any) in child endangerment. You could have steered the thread away from JW (since people are taking issue with your points mentioning the JW and they refuse to look beyond that), but you just specified "problem with them." I've got a serious problem with them as well, but it's better to project your opinions or thoughts as objectively as possible, thus enticing people into the debate

I understand why you used the Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm not thinking of this thread as an issue solely with them, although other people are.

Since I already outlined my own opinion on the entire thing, I'll specifically address the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I'm not sure about the area in which you live, but here in Canada, Jehovah's Witness is likely the overwhelming majority of people who disagree with (or would disagree with, although not all JW are this pious) doctors or other medical professionals regarding the rights of their children, and the balance of Religious doctrine, parental responsibilities and the criminal negligence which stems from it.

So I'll go with Canadian POV; The jehovah's Witnesses are usually relegated to the sidelines here because they're such a minority widely strewn across the country. However, I do remember having a bit of anger and resentment for them in school, as they would be allowed to simply leave class if something offends them. Or not go to school for innocuous days which in reality have lost any religious meaning, like Valentines day, Orangeman's day, etc. Christmas and Easter, they'd go AWOL for several weeks. Any time we had a religion class (3 or 4 times a year at MOST), they'd leave. (I'm not getting into the hate and indoctrination, or the hypocrisy that those children must incur at home if they're not even allowed to HEAR about other religions, although we'd better hear about theirs.)

My biggest bone to pick with the JW is their incessant need to tell people they're damned and how much better they think they are than everyone else. It should be and widely is considered to be pure evil to teach children that their school-aged friends are absolutely condemned. Which I've had happen to myself. Maybe in the Christian-filled Bible belt of the US that's common.. But that's extremely offensive, unnecessary and very rare to hear in Canada which is what took me so off guard.

Long story short, one of those girls dropped out in grade 11 when her family forced her to marry some sketchy asshole. The older sister left the religion in grade 12, got a boyfriend, and had to deal with her family trying to "save" her.

So, I would never put it past the JW to do something completely crazy, like your thread name might suggest. And they're certainly deserving of all the criticism they get. However, as I earlier mentioned a few posts ago, these [-]assholes[/-] Kind, Kind people aren't the only Religious fanatics getting away with things like this.

[Sir Suomi]

That's pretty appalling behavior. No wonder Christians tend to hate atheists. A simple "please don't come back" would've sufficed.

Oh, and we atheists don't get our fair end of it too?

[Karkat]

That's possibly the worst thing you could have said to pick up the pieces of this thread.

You could have used this post as a way to get away from your title thread and make it about all nutty religious sects, not just the example you provided in the JW. However, responding "Still people aren't actually talking about my problem with them", that will only make people angrier and will further distract them from the actual purpose of this thread, which is to argue the merits (if any) in child endangerment. You could have steered the thread away from JW (since people are taking issue with your points mentioning the JW and they refuse to look beyond that), but you just specified "problem with them." I've got a serious problem with them as well, but it's better to project your opinions or thoughts as objectively as possible, thus enticing people into the debate

I understand why you used the Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm not thinking of this thread as an issue solely with them, although other people are.

Since I already outlined my own opinion on the entire thing, I'll specifically address the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I'm not sure about the area in which you live, but here in Canada, Jehovah's Witness is likely the overwhelming majority of people who disagree with (or would disagree with, although not all JW are this pious) doctors or other medical professionals regarding the rights of their children, and the balance of Religious doctrine, parental responsibilities and the criminal negligence which stems from it.

So I'll go with Canadian POV; The jehovah's Witnesses are usually relegated to the sidelines here because they're such a minority widely strewn across the country. However, I do remember having a bit of anger and resentment for them in school, as they would be allowed to simply leave class if something offends them. Or not go to school for innocuous days which in reality have lost any religious meaning, like Valentines day, Orangeman's day, etc. Christmas and Easter, they'd go AWOL for several weeks. Any time we had a religion class (3 or 4 times a year at MOST), they'd leave. (I'm not getting into the hate and indoctrination, or the hypocrisy that those children must incur at home if they're not even allowed to HEAR about other religions, although we'd better hear about theirs.)

My biggest bone to pick with the JW is their incessant need to tell people they're damned and how much better they think they are than everyone else. It should be and widely is considered to be pure evil to teach children that their school-aged friends are absolutely condemned. Which I've had happen to myself. Maybe in the Christian-filled Bible belt of the US that's common.. But that's extremely offensive, unnecessary and very rare to hear in Canada which is what took me so off guard.

Long story short, one of those girls dropped out in grade 11 when her family forced her to marry some sketchy asshole. The older sister left the religion in grade 12, got a boyfriend, and had to deal with her family trying to "save" her.

So, I would never put it past the JW to do something completely crazy, like your thread name might suggest. And they're certainly deserving of all the criticism they get. However, as I earlier mentioned a few posts ago, these [-]assholes[/-] Kind, Kind people aren't the only Religious fanatics getting away with things like this.

So you go on to lay out the faults you have with them that are irrelevant to the topic at hand? Truly inspirational.

Are we talking about how terrible Jehovah's Witnesses are, or about blood transfusions? 'Cause I can't keep track.

I mean, you literally could not have written a more ironic response.

Oh, and we atheists don't get our fair end of it too?

Atheists who are assholes just perpetuate the fact that people are assholes to atheists.

Also- it's not just atheists who get it. It's anyone who isn't religious, and also generally those who are in minority religions as well.

Besides, revenge is petty and useless. And you're not even getting revenge on the people who are persecuting you. You're just stooping to their level.

[Sir Suomi]

Atheists who are assholes just perpetuate the fact that people are assholes to atheists.

So it's cool for people to interrupt my day, preaching gibberish, wasting my time, and you expect me to be "okay" with it? No. I don't give two shits what you do in your own respective areas of worship, but keep it out of the rest of the world.

Also- it's not just atheists who get it. It's anyone who isn't religious, and also generally those who are in minority religions as well.

Did I say only Atheists get it? Putting false words in people's mouths isn't the strongest way to debate.

Besides, revenge is petty and useless. And you're not even getting revenge on the people who are persecuting you. You're just stooping to their level.

I'd say revenge can be everything but petty and useless.

[Karkat]

So it's cool for people to interrupt my day, preaching gibberish, wasting my time, and you expect me to be "okay" with it? No. I don't give two shits what you do in your own respective areas of worship, but keep it out of the rest of the world.



Did I say only Atheists get it? Putting false words in people's mouths isn't the strongest way to debate.



I'd say revenge can be everything but petty and useless.

1. I don't know if you're intentionally trying to make this sound like a personal attack, but I'm agnostic. Thanks.
2. I never said that you said it either. I was saying that atheists aren't the only ones religious meanies like to pick on.
3. That's your opinion, I disagree.

[Sir Suomi]

1. I don't know if you're intentionally trying to make this sound like a personal attack, but I'm agnostic. Thanks.

Wasn't

2. I never said that you said it either. I was saying that atheists aren't the only ones religious meanies like to pick on.

Well then I'd choose a better way to get the context of your words better.

3. That's your opinion, I disagree.

Don't we all.

[Blood]

aaaaalrighty then

My grandmother is a strict Jehovah's Witness and she has been for the majority of her life. She has tried to get me to convert so so so many times, she's constantly out witnessing to people, and she used to always give me those watchtower books they give out to convince people to convert.

Whoever said that Jehovah's witnesses don't accept modern medicine (or something along those lines) is sadly mistaken. This same grandmother got breast cancer in her late 60s and has been treated for it with, you guessed it, modern medicine. She also suffers from terrible arthritis and takes medicine for that. However, she is very, very against blood transfusions, to the point where she almost convinced my uncle to let my little cousin die because he needed a blood transfusion. Which I'll admit was a dick move, but when you're raised believing something for so long, it doesn't seem that way.

I love how certain people are using bad stories and false information to make this religion seem horrible. You can't take one story and base your whole opinion on a religion off of that. That's the definition of ignorant. If you want to talk about or talk shit about something, get educated first.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'll sit here and talk shit about Christianity and Catholicism any day, but I know every little thing about them because I was raised believing their teachings, so I can talk legit, educated shit. I'm not saying you have to be raised the same way to put up a valid argument, but for the love of every god out there get your information straight.

IM 15 and bad at Religious studies. I made a wrong statement. Still people aren't actually talking about my problem with them, at least a decent amount of them will refuse their children blood transfusions. Theyre taking a child's life in their hands. It doesn't seem ethical.

Oh gosh, here we go with ethical again. Drum roll

[Broken Toy]

aaaaalrighty then

My grandmother is a strict Jehovah's Witness and she has been for the majority of her life. She has tried to get me to convert so so so many times, she's constantly out witnessing to people, and she used to always give me those watchtower books they give out to convince people to convert.

Whoever said that Jehovah's witnesses don't accept modern medicine (or something along those lines) is sadly mistaken. This same grandmother got breast cancer in her late 60s and has been treated for it with, you guessed it, modern medicine. She also suffers from terrible arthritis and takes medicine for that. However, she is very, very against blood transfusions, to the point where she almost convinced my uncle to let my little cousin die because he needed a blood transfusion. Which I'll admit was a dick move, but when you're raised believing something for so long, it doesn't seem that way.

I love how certain people are using bad stories and false information to make this religion seem horrible. You can't take one story and base your whole opinion on a religion off of that. That's the definition of ignorant. If you want to talk about or talk shit about something, get educated first.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'll sit here and talk shit about Christianity and Catholicism any day, but I know every little thing about them because I was raised believing their teachings, so I can talk legit, educated shit. I'm not saying you have to be raised the same way to put up a valid argument, but for the love of every god out there get your information straight.



Oh gosh, here we go with ethical again. Drum roll

Why do they value religious followings over a child's life? Like i am genuinely curious. I know other religiojs do this but hey we're actually getting somewhere

[Neverender]

So you go on to lay out the faults you have with them that are irrelevant to the topic at hand? Truly inspirational.

Are we talking about how terrible Jehovah's Witnesses are, or about blood transfusions? 'Cause I can't keep track.

I mean, you literally could not have written a more ironic response.

You were mentioning how I was one of the few who remotely addressed the entire idea of Child health vs Religion without specifically talking about the JW.

I hadn't given my particular views on JW even though it's what the Thread was titled. Since I had espoused my views on the topic in general (and those wouldn't change as a result of any particular denomination either), I figured I'd give some contextual information on what I see of the Jehovah's Witness in my part of the world for anyone in this thread, including OP.

Which is an important point to remember if you're standing up for the religion, that opinions and thoughts on it's practices are some reasons for why people are so quick to jump at their throats. (Excluding misinformation)
Not blind rabid xenophobic hate, but more of a resentment and annoyance with them

[Karkat]

You were mentioning how I was one of the few who remotely addressed the entire idea of Child health vs Religion without specifically talking about the JW.

I hadn't given my particular views on JW even though it's what the Thread was titled. Since I had espoused my views on the topic in general (and those wouldn't change as a result of any particular denomination either), I figured I'd give some contextual information on what I see of the Jehovah's Witness in my part of the world for anyone in this thread, including OP.

Which is an important point to remember if you're standing up for the religion, that opinions and thoughts on it's practices are some reasons for why people are so quick to jump at their throats. (Excluding misinformation)
Not blind rabid xenophobic hate, but more of a resentment and annoyance with them

Fair enough.

Edit: I just think this whole thread is kind of a mess and isn't really going anywhere.

[Typhlosion]

This thread has completely lost its point, if it even had one to start with.

:locked: