Scottish Independence Referendum, 2014

[Living For Love]

If you were Scottish and could vote, would you vote "Yes" or "No"? Make a post explaining why, if you want. In my case, I honestly don't know what's really at stake here, but I believe we don't really need a divided UK right now, not to mention it could lead to other regions wanting their independence as well.

[Left Now]

Simply,none of my business! :) ; because I'm neither a UK citizen,nor a common wealth one.However,I wish it could be possible if no country didn't need to get divided.

[CosmicNoodle]

Scotland actually takes more money in fro. ythe government than it takes out, it's economy can't support itself, they have oil, and that's about it, in fact they don't even own the oil, they just mine it, I have no doubts that if they get independence there economy will crumble

[Harry Smith]

, not to mention it could lead to other regions wanting their independence as well.

there's nothing wrong with other nations wanting independence-every group of people have a right to self determination.

If I was scottish I'd vote to leave the union, you'd get rid of Nuclear weapons, allow progressive use of oil revenue and never have a tory government again. As a British Labour supporter I want the union to stay together but if I was Scottish I'd vote to leave

I have no doubts that if they get independence there economy will crumble

What's happened to the UK's economy for the last 5 years?

[CosmicNoodle]

What's happened to the UK's economy for the last 5 years?

I have no idea, when o got depressed I stopped caring about something as meaningless and pointless as the economy, please enlighten me

[Harry Smith]

I have no idea, when o got depressed I stopped caring about something as meaningless and pointless as the economy, please enlighten me

I'm just saying that the UK's economy is hardly in a good position considering it's build on a housing bubble.

The main reason I'd vote for independence is Nuclear weapons,why do we need to spend 85 billion on a rocket we'd never use?

[CosmicNoodle]

You make a good point, our nuclear programme is completely useless, and pointless, the point I'm trying to make is that without ythe rest of ythe UK Scotland can't support itself

[Broken Toy]

I just think that Scotland have crowbarred themselves some power. England needs them for reasons i have sunddenly forgotten but they don't respect them. Scotland making an independence vote they are suddenly much more valuable as they are showing they can go independent if they want to. Increasing their importance

[Vlerchan]

Yes.

It should then nationalise the oil and go Norway economy-wise. I'm not sure about rejoining the EU thereafter but regardless the Scots should retain the British pound. I don't care about the nuclear weapons.

---

If someone wants to explain how exactly Scotland's economy is going to crumble without England then I'd love to hear it.

[Harry Smith]

You make a good point, our nuclear programme is completely useless, and pointless, the point I'm trying to make is that without ythe rest of ythe UK Scotland can't support itself

Republic of Ireland managed to support itself, Belgium manages to support itself

Yes.

It should then nationalise the oil and go Norway economy-wise. I'm not sure about rejoining the EU thereafter but regardless the Scots should retain the British pound. I don't care about the nuclear weapons.

They'll have to join the EU, purely to get any backing from business and to continue as some sort of commonwealth status (remaining in NATO, monarchy, EU etc)

They'll have a currency union as long as the scots have a share of the national debt.

The much wider point for me is that Scotland should have a right to govern themselves, it's not just about the economic point of view. Why should Scotland be ruled by a government that only has 1 MP in scotland

[Human]

I think they should leave if they want to, however I think if they want to leave, then they shouldn't expect things like sharing the pound etc.

[Stronk Serb]

If they wish to leave, they should. But I think Scotland should be more represented in British politics if they don't leave.

[Vlerchan]

I'm now on a laptop, so I should be able to give a proper response.

Scotland actually takes more money in fro. ythe government than it takes out, it's economy can't support itself.
This is the case for a majority of countries in Europe right now. That's why 'the deficit' is such a big topics. Most countries have to borrow to remain afloat. Let's look at the whole of Britain in terms of their deficit. In my opinion, the projections should be ignored because they're hopelessly optimistic.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73120000/jpg/_73120912_f4816163-ab6b-4de6-8ab2-eb0de07c4dd9.jpg

Britain the last few years has been running between 80 billion and 120 billion over budget.

edit: also of note:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/855/6wg6.jpg

You'll find that financial services are proposing to relocate their headquarters to London as opposed to Edinburgh if Scotland cede - several Scotish banks, inc. RBS, are majority owned by the government in Westminster - though a turn-around in the financialisation of Scotland's economy isn't something to mourn in my opinion; financialisation being a phenomenon linked to sluggish growth and increasing unemployment.

---

Republic of Ireland managed to support itself, Belgium manages to support itself
Ireland is an awful example to use.

They'll have to join the EU, purely to get any backing from business ...
I think you're overestimating the importance of EU membership here. I'd figure Scotland setting more attractive effective corporation tax rates (for a start: I feel there's much better ways to deal with businesses than just a single flat tax) and the continued creation of an environment more attractive for R&D, amongst other FDI-friendly policy initiatives, could be just as effective in drumming of business support.

I would then suggest that it sets about setting up free-trade agreements with other first-world states, independently. I say this because a) I don't believe it's possible to be progressive and in the EU at the same time, and b) Scotland retaining the pound and being in the EU seems unlikely (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/02/indepdent-scotland-not-join-eu-without-central-bank).

... and to continue as some sort of commonwealth status (remaining in NATO, monarchy, EU etc)
I'm unsure what the EU has to do with the Commonwealth. It can remain in the Commonwealth regardless of whether or not in remains within the United Kingdom of Great Britain (and Northern Ireland). Ireland's currently eligible to join the Commonwealth.

They'll have a currency union as long as the scots have a share of the national debt.
I don't know why you believe that the Scots should need to shoulder England's debt in order to retain the use of their own currency, the British pound.

... it's not just about the economic point of view.
It's just about the economics point of view for me.

If it's economically enviable then there's no point. Anything after it being economically viable is a bonus.

---

England needs them for reasons i have sunddenly forgotten but they don't respect them.
England were worried about the French, is probably the basis you're looking for.

[Harry Smith]

---


Ireland is an awful example to use.


I think you're overestimating the importance of EU membership here. I'd figure Scotland setting more attractive effective corporation tax rates (for a start: I feel there's much better ways to deal with businesses than just a single flat tax) and the continued creation of an environment more attractive for R&D, amongst other FDI-friendly policy initiatives, could be just as effective in drumming of business support. It would the suggest that it sets about setting up free-trade agreements with other first-world states, independently. I say this because a) I don't believe it's possible to be progressive and in the EU at the same time, and b) Scotland retaining the pound and being in the EU seems unlikely (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/02/indepdent-scotland-not-join-eu-without-central-bank).


I'm unsure what the EU has to do with the Commonwealth. It can remain in the Commonwealth regardless of whether or not in remains within the United Kingdom of Great Britain (and Northern Ireland). Ireland's currently eligible to join the Commonwealth.


I don't now why you believe that the Scots should need to shoulder England's debt in order to retain the use of their own currency, the British pound.


It's just about he economics point of view for me.

If it's economically enviable then there's no point. Anything after it being economically viable is a bonus.

With the commonwealth point I just meant Scotland are trying to keep traditional to get the labour voters in-even though I believe if they become independent they'll ditch the Queen.

The currency is the biggest issue, Salmonds line has been that he'll have a currency union and take on a share of the debt in return

[Vlerchan]

The currency is the biggest issue, Salmonds line has been that he'll have a currency union and take on a share of the debt in return
I was making the point that I don't believe they should have to do this. It's the British pound, and Scotland are an equal partner (with England) in Great Britain (legally speaking).

If England have a problem then they're free to start a new currency.

[Living For Love]

there's nothing wrong with other nations wanting independence-every group of people have a right to self determination.

I was obviously referring to Catalonia. You can't compare Spain's economic situation to UK's economic situation, not to mention the fact that they have a terrorist group associated with Catalonian independence.

[Vlerchan]

I was obviously referring to Catalonia.
I'm still not seeing the problem.

[Living For Love]

I'm still not seeing the problem.

"If it does happen, this European ‘contagion’ risk that you mention is very real," Bremmer, told Business Insider on Monday.

"Other countries will look very closely at how European institutions and member states would manage it. In Spain, Prime Minister Rajoy and the Constitutional Court have both ruled out a similar referendum for Catalonia. But a ‘yes’ in Scotland would make for a much noisier situation in Spain. After a ‘yes’ vote, Scotland would effectively become the pioneer, carving a path forward that Catalonia would try and follow."

In addition to Catalonia, the Basque region of Spain also is home to a budding legion of separatists who want to vote for independence. Other, less mature independence movements that could grow include the Dutch-speaking Flanders region of Belgium, as well as Venice and other areas in northern Italy.

A "yes" vote in Scotland would likely lead to a tenuous, uncertain situation as it tries to regain membership into the European Union by the time it would become fully independent in March 2016. To get back into the EU would require a unanimous vote by current members, which may be impossible as countries like Spain and Belgium would want to use the situation as a deterrent to separatist movements in their own countries.

"That would be incredibly messy, precisely because countries like Spain and Belgium would have an incentive to bar Scottish membership given their own situations," Bremmer said.

http://www.businessinsider.com/scottish-independence-vote-scotland-cotagion-catalonia-2014-9

Europe already has too many things to worry about, we know what's going in Ukraine, creating this insecurity around referendums and independences is something simply avoidable and needless. And if Scotland wanted to be independent, why only now, why hasn't this referendum been done before?

[Harry Smith]

http://www.businessinsider.com/scottish-independence-vote-scotland-cotagion-catalonia-2014-9

Europe already has too many things to worry about, we know what's going in Ukraine, creating this insecurity around referendums and independences is something simply avoidable and needless. And if Scotland wanted to be independent, why only now, why hasn't this referendum been done before?

That doesn't matter one bit, the referendum is clearly wanted by the people of scotland and the polls are suggesting that up to 51% of people are going to vote yes. It's not an insecurity,

it's about people having a democratic right to decide their open future-something that Britian fought for the in the second world war (whilst the spanish where playing at fascism)

It's only happned in the last 10 years because the scottish parliament has only existed for the least 14 years after the 1998 devolution act. No doubt if it happened 10 years ago you'd still argue why hasn't it happened before?

Quite frankly I'm sick of Spanish nationalists trying to hijack this debate because they want to keep there 16th century patchwork together.

The issue also doesn't add up ETA have bee around since the 1970's before the SNP (scottish national party) were even a big force, if anything ETA has led more to Scottish independence than Scottish Independence leading to ETA. Lets have a quick look at history of Europe.

- Did Austria breaking from Germany in 1945 weaken Europe? No
-Did Slovakia forming in 1990 weaken Europe? No
-Did Ireland breaking from Northern Ireland weaken Europe? No


not to mention the fact that they have a terrorist group associated with Catalonian independence.

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist as well wasn't he?

I don't understand your argument, you oppose people using the ballot box to get independence and you oppose people using force. What do you want people to do?

I'm sure that Catalonia will be safe, if it tries to become indepdance the noble Spanish army will step in again and create another fascist government .

TL;DR: none of your arguments address scottish indepdance, their just ways of keeping Catalonia in the fascist hands of the spanish

[Stronk Serb]

I was obviously referring to Catalonia. You can't compare Spain's economic situation to UK's economic situation, not to mention the fact that they have a terrorist group associated with Catalonian independence.

So do the Irish have the IRA which wanted independence for Ireland but they changed their goals to the unification of Ireland. The Albanians had a terrorist group which wanted thr independence of Kosovo. The Serbs had the Black Hand which was for unification of all Serbs in a songle state.

[phuckphace]

independence of course. though it would be pointless if the plan is to join the €U right after. but since the SNP sold out and went pro-EU that's probably what will end up happening so w/e. enjoy your Merkelbux I guess.

[Living For Love]

Quite frankly I'm sick of Spanish nationalists trying to hijack this debate because they want to keep there 16th century patchwork together.
I'm not a Spanish nationalist, I was just referring to the Catalonia case as an unexpected consequence of the Scottish referendum

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist as well wasn't he?

I don't understand your argument, you oppose people using the ballot box to get independence and you oppose people using force. What do you want people to do?
The way you use Nelson Mandela's name and compare him to terrorist groups is disgusting. I don't oppose people using their right to vote to get independence, I just think this isn't the right time to do it. What's the point of changing something that's already good and stable?

[Vlerchan]

[Link]
As I said above: I'm not too hot on the EU so this doesn't bother me.

I don't believe that Spain would veto them though since the Catalonian referendum is looking like it will take place before Scotland get their independence and start reapplying for the EU.

... creating this insecurity around referendums and independences is something simply avoidable and needless.
I promise you that the terrorism that arises when you try to suppress people and their right to self-determination will be a lot worse. I don't believe that this will happen in Scotland, because I think most people are comfortable within the Union but just seek a bit more, but I need only point to the Basque region or Catalonia for examples of where it has occurred and still occurs (to an extent).

I also don't agree that Scotland ceding will be particularly destabilising for the rest of Great Britain. Would you mind explaining how you believe it might be destabilising?

And if Scotland wanted to be independent, why only now, why hasn't this referendum been done before?
As far as I'm aware, this is the first time in a while that a substantial number of Scots have sought independence.

---

So do the Irish have the IRA which wanted independence for Ireland but they changed their goals to the unification of Ireland.
The goals of the IRA have never changed.

In their eyes, Ireland never gained independence, because 6 counties still belong within the union.

[Exocet]

What about the British nuclear weapons and submarines in Scoltand ?



5 reasons to worry about Scottish vote


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/140903120725-map-scotland-split-340xa.png

A vote in favor of independence would end a 307-year union with England and have far reaching consequences for the economy, currency, banks and industry. There could also be knock-on effects across Europe.

Here are five things you need to know:

1. Currency mess: The pound hit a 10-month low against the dollar this week as opinion polls swung in favor of voters who want to break away from the U.K.

Uncertainty over which currency an independent Scotland will use, and the impact of a messy divorce on the U.K. economy, is largely to blame.

Independence campaigners want to continue to use the pound in a currency union with England, but U.K. lawmakers say they're not ready to share. And even if they were, the Bank of England would likely insist on tough budget rules that could mean painful austerity for Scotland.

Scottish nationalist leader Alex Salmond has refused to outline a 'Plan B', though he's hinted that Scotland may continue to use the pound without U.K. permission. Another option would be to create a new, untested currency.

The euro, if an option at all, would be years away. (See "EU: In or out?" below.)

2. The debt debate: In an early move to reassure markets, the U.K. government said it would honor all its debts -- including Scotland's share -- if there is a split.

However, under this scenario, an independent Scotland would owe Britain as much as £130 billion -- or roughly 10% of total U.K. public debt.

Supporters of independence say they're ready to pay, and are confident Scotland could manage its debts with greater ease once independence is established.

However, credit ratings agency Standard & Poor's cautions that Scotland's economy -- which would be similar in size to Portugal -- would be less resilient to shocks because of its greater dependence on volatile earnings from the oil and gas industry.

3. All about oil: The U.K. is the largest oil producer in the EU, and about 90% comes from areas that are likely to be claimed by an independent Scotland.

The U.K. is also likely to want a share of current production and reserves, but most analysts expect an agreement could be reached on divvying up the assets.

There are deeper divisions, however, over how much the remaining oil is worth -- a calculation of much greater significance to the future of the Scottish economy.

Independence campaigners estimate Scotland's remaining oil is worth about £1.5 trillion. The U.K. government says it's less than one-tenth of that figure.

4. A financial giant: Scotland's massive financial industry seems ready to head for the exits if voters choose independence.

The biggest names in banking and insurance, including the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), say they would move headquarters and parts of their businesses to England if Scottish voters back a split.

The financial sector employs 100,000 people in Scotland and generates roughly £7 billion ($11 billion) for the economy each year, so this raises concerns about future job losses and lower tax revenues for an independent nation.

5. EU: In or out? Independence campaigners want Scotland to remain in the EU.

But an independent Scotland would most likely be treated as a new state, and therefore have to apply for membership. That process can take years and all 28 members would have to approve the application -- something some may be reluctant to do for fear of encouraging their own separatist movements.

And there's another potential sting in the tail that could be far more damaging for the U.K.

Prime Minister David Cameron has promised a vote on Britain's membership of the EU by the end of 2017, assuming he wins next year's election.

"For the rest of the U.K., losing relatively pro-EU Scotland would raise the risk of a Brexit from the EU," warned Robert Wood, chief UK economist at Berenberg bank.



http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/09/news/scotland-independence-referendum/index.html?sr=fbmoney0909scotland0900photolink

[phuckphace]

^I see the economists are wiggin' out about volatility but is that in the context of a private industry, or nationalized? I'd be interested to see what would happen if they went Norway mode with it. A trillion pounds is a shitload of money...better slap that into a sovereign wealth fund before Warren Buffett starts using it to roll cigars (actually he's probably doing that right now)

[Vlerchan]

What about the British nuclear submarines and weapons in Scoltand
What about them?

Splitting from England in terms of defence would be good for Scotland:

There are many examples of wasteful Westminster spending in defence which wouldn’t apply to a Scottish defence force. The latest Ministry of Defence figures said there was £1.57 billion spent on defence in Scotland in 2007/08. However, in that year Scotland paid in £2.84 billion towards UK defence spending. (GERS 2010-11). There is a huge gap in how much Scotland pays for defence and how much is actually spent in Scotland.

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/defence-in-an-independent-scotland-spend-less-to-get-more/

It should then agree with Norway et al. to patrol the North Atlantic together.

[CNN:]

The pound hit a 10-month low against the dollar this week as opinion polls swung in favor of voters who want to break away from the U.K.

[...]

Independence campaigners want to continue to use the pound in a currency union with England, but U.K. lawmakers say they're not ready to share. And even if they were, the Bank of England would likely insist on tough budget rules that could mean painful austerity for Scotland.

A weaker currency isn't necessarily bad. I know I want the ECB to deliberately weaken the Euro so to make Irish exports more attractive to foreign countries (they become cheaper relative to the goods in that country) and makes investing in Ireland more attractive (because the euros to do it with are cheaper). It's uncertainty that's bad, though after the referendum I'm sure you'll see various administration release a number of statements to ease this.

It should be noted that Osbourne's stated refusal to even consider discussing a currency union is one of the main drivers of this.

---

You can also read my previous statements about the pound in this thread.

[CNN:]

However, under this scenario, an independent Scotland would owe Britain as much as £130 billion -- or roughly 10% of total U.K. public debt.

It'll be grand, in my opinion.

[CNN:]

Scotland's massive financial industry seems ready to head for the exits if voters choose independence.

See:

Today the No Campaign’s focus on company registration has been substantially over stated.

Last night the Royal Bank of Scotland made it clear that they do not intend to move operations or jobs. They will “retain a significant level of its operations and employment in Scotland”.

Ross McEwan, RBS Chief Executive, said registration “is a technical procedure regarding the location of our registered head office. It is not an intention to move operation or jobs.”

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/financial-giant-backs-independent-scotlands-economy-to-succeed/

As I said earlier though: Financialisation is linked with sluggish growth and unemployment so I don't care if the financial sector relocates.

[CNN:

"For the rest of the U.K., losing relatively pro-EU Scotland would raise the risk of a Brexit from the EU."
I've said in the past that I'm fine with this because it benefits Ireland.

---

edit:

I'd be interested to see what would happen if they went Norway mode with it.
It doesn't look like this might happen at the moment, which is awful.

[Harry Smith]

The way you use Nelson Mandela's name and compare him to terrorist groups is disgusting.

So you're denying that Nelson Mandela and his group used bombings to end apartheid in south Africa?

[Paladino]

You make a good point, our nuclear programme is completely useless, and pointless, the point I'm trying to make is that without ythe rest of ythe UK Scotland can't support itself

Why cant we support our self? We have oil revenue, BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS, that YOUR UK government takes from us, and how much actually gets spent on us? We won't have to hold UK nukes anymore. In the event of an attack on faslane, where the nukes are kept. Half the population of Scotland would be taken out. We have SCOTCH WHISKEY. Another amazing source of revenue, no whiskey anywhere else in the world competes with scotch. We would actually get a government WE voted for. The minimum wage will rise. We need independence to become a better nation for ourselfs and for the world.

[Harry Smith]

We would actually get a government WE voted for. .

To play DA I didn't see you lot complaining when you had 13 years of a labour government, tbh it's one of the weakest arguments.

London didn't vote for the tories-should London become independent?

If you want social justice in scotland, if you want higher wages and if you want a progressive government vote for Miliband in 2015.

As someone who has a family member working in the brewing industry I know that the brewing industry wants Scotland to remain in the UK and in the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/may/30/diageo-scottish-independence-whisky

[Paladino]

Yeah but we didn't vote for Margaret Thatcher did we, and everyone who was around in Scotland back then tells me now she was a massive BITCH towards us. It is not one of the weakest arguements. England likes to think they have Scotland in their pocket. Won't be long before YOU don't, and that is why David Cameron, Miliband, George Osbourne came here last wednesday. They are shaking at the thought of us becoming independent because they know you will have less money. That is why your better together campaign and your government are scaremongering. They are making up lies. They are trying to privatise the NHS and charge for prescriptions. Where as we have already been guranteed our Health Service will remain free.

[Harry Smith]

Yeah but we didn't vote for Margaret Thatcher did we, They are making up lies. They are trying to privatise the NHS and charge for prescriptions. Where as we have already been guranteed our Health Service will remain free.

My parents didn't vote for Thatcher, over what 250 seats in the UK didn't vote for Thatcher but we had to get through it-the scots aren't the only people who hated Thatcher.

A labour government under Ed Miliband will keep the NHS free, that's a fact. Tony Blair-not Alex Salmond was the man who got the NHS back up again after the tories ruined it in the 90s'.

You talk about lies-it's a fact that the NHS will remain free at the point of use under a labour government

[Paladino]

Vote for miliband ..

The polictician who skived from work to go and watch WEST BROM play, and was caught on a TV camera, yeah he seems like the right guy to lead the UK ..

[Harry Smith]

Vote for miliband ..

The polictician who skived from work to go and watch WEST BROM play, and was caught on a TV camera, yeah he seems like the right guy to lead the UK ..

Do you even know how an MP works? They don't have to turn up at there office at 9 in the morning.

I saw Alex Salmond skiving work last year at Wimbledon, remember that?

In politics it tends to be good to debate a leaders policy, not slag them off for going to a football match

[Paladino]

When it came out, he wasn't supposed to be there, he was supposed to be at Westminster or campaigning somewhere and he made up a good excuse to not go and he attended a football match. If it is in their spare time then let them go. I never saw Alex Salmond at Wimbledon but if he wasn't meant to be there and be somewhere else he would have been hammered for it. Also Scotland isn't voting for Salmond, we are voting for ourselfs. He knows this, he's just the only leader we've had in recent times that wants this as much as the rest of the Yes voters do.

[Harry Smith]

When it came out, he wasn't supposed to be there, he was supposed to be at Westminster or campaigning somewhere and he made up a good excuse to not go and he attended a football match.

No that's simply wrong-he had a NHS campaign rally on Friday that he missed through illness and then on the Saturday he had a booked visit to see the Hull Chairman who is labour supporter-he had this trip booked months in advance-it's hardly a scandal is it? He didn't go to watch the Football (something few politicians enjoy) he went to meet a high profile labour supporter-as the leader of the Labour party this is something I'd expect him to do.

You've still yet to address the fact that Miliband is the only one of the 4 leaders who can actually save the NHS

[Paladino]

An independent Scotland would keep free healthcare. So if we go independent I don't really care about the rest of the UK. Maybe Northern Ireland but that's about it.

[Vlerchan]

Why cant we support our self?
You spend more than you take in, to put it simply.

In the event of an attack on faslane, where the nukes are kept. Half the population of Scotland would be taken out.
In the event of a war concerning England going nuclear, you're dead regardless.

The minimum wage will rise.
I really hope you're not basing your vote on this.

---

If you want social justice in scotland, if you want higher wages and if you want a progressive government vote for Miliband in 2015.
It'll be phuckphace and I having a good laugh when Milliband turns out to be another neoliberal-in-practice.

[Harry Smith]

It'll be phuckphace and I having a good laugh when Milliband turns out to be another neoliberal-in-practice.[/QUOTE]

If labour wanted that they would of voted for David Miliband (the blairite one)

[Paladino]

You spend more than you take in, to put it simply.


In the event of a war concerning England going nuclear, you're dead regardless.


I really hope you're not basing your vote on this.

---


It'll be phuckphace and I having a good laugh when Milliband turns out to be another neoliberal-in-practice.

My vote is based on the fact I want Scotland to have full power of Scotland.

[Paladino]

Majority of the time we don't get the government we vote for. The UK Government are trying to privatise the NHS and charge for prescriptions. The minimum wage in an independent Scotland here. I might not be any politician but atleast I know what I want for my country. What if it was the other way around? How would you feel about the majority of decisions for your country were happening in Edinburgh and decided by the Scots?

[Harry Smith]

Majority of the time we don't get the government we vote for. The UK Government are trying to privatise the NHS and charge for prescriptions. The minimum wage in an independent Scotland here. I might not be any politician but atleast I know what I want for my country. What if it was the other way around? How would you feel about the majority of decisions for your country were happening in Edinburgh and decided by the Scots?

It doesn't matter about the geography-you make it out as if Scotland is represented. You've got 45 MPS in parliament who can vote on this issues, tell me why did only 2 out of 9 of the SNP MP's vote against the Bedroom tax?

You keep talking about the NHS-you know we've been paying for the NHS since 1956-we have to pay for eye tests.

The NHS will remain free at the point of care-even if it's outsourced to a different company it will still be free. You keep talking about lies-that's one put forward by the SNP

[Living For Love]

I promise you that the terrorism that arises when you try to suppress people and their right to self-determination will be a lot worse. I don't believe that this will happen in Scotland, because I think most people are comfortable within the Union but just seek a bit more, but I need only point to the Basque region or Catalonia for examples of where it has occurred and still occurs (to an extent).
If you put it that way, it gives the impression that there is no solution to the issue; they either get the independence or form a terrorist group, it gives the impression that this is going to end up like the African decolonisation, with a civil war going on before the independence of the colony and afterwards as well.

I also don't agree that Scotland ceding will be particularly destabilising for the rest of Great Britain. Would you mind explaining how you believe it might be destabilising?

How won't it be destabilising? They're losing territory full of natural resources.

As far as I'm aware, this is the first time in a while that a substantial number of Scots have sought independence.
All right then, I was just asking what made them have this sudden desire for independence. People are talking about nuclear weapons and oil, but the UK has nuclear weapons since 1952 and is exploring oil reserves since the 70s, so…

So you're denying that Nelson Mandela and his group used bombings to end apartheid in south Africa?
I'm not denying that, call Mandela whatever you want, I'm just saying that he fought for freedom and for justice, pro-independence terrorists fight only for whim.

[Harry Smith]

I'm not denying that, call Mandela whatever you want, I'm just saying that he fought for freedom and for justice, pro-independence terrorists fight only for whim.

So you accept that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist?

So the pro-independence fighters in 1770's America only fight for a whim?

The fact that you describe it as a whim shows how shallow and petty your entire argument is, do you have any evidence it's a whim?

[Vlerchan]

If you put it that way, it gives the impression that there is no solution to the issue.
Independence is a solution to me.

I was making the point though that what you propose is more destabilising than what I propose.

How won't it be destabilising? They're losing territory full of natural resources.
England will have to find another source of revenue, though at the same time won't have to pick up Scotland's financial slack.

It's not a massive issue.

All right then, I was just asking what made them have this sudden desire for independence.
Thatcher and British politics shift to the right.

---

I'm just saying that he fought for freedom and for justice, pro-independence terrorists fight only for whim.
You'll find that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

It just depends what you personally value.

[Living For Love]

So you accept that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist?
I accept he was someone who knew that sometimes you have to waive certain rights in order to get higher achievements. But as far as I know, there's not an Apartheid in Spain or in the UK at the moment.

So the pro-independence fighters in 1770's America only fight for a whim?
I was talking about the pro-independence "fighters" I mentioned previously, ETA, for instance.

The fact that you describe it as a whim shows how shallow and petty your entire argument is, do you have any evidence it's a whim?
Only the fact that they perpetrated terrorist attacks considering they weren't fighting any war makes them lose all their credibility.

Independence is a solution to me.
Oh well, more than a half of the Scottish populations disagrees with you.

England will have to find another source of revenue...
I wonder how much time that will take.

Thatcher and British politics shift to the right.
Would you mind explain what this has to do with Scotland independence?

You'll find that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

It just depends what you personally value.
I value the idea that you don't need terrorists to achieve freedom.

[Harry Smith]

If you don't understand Thatcher you don't understand scotland

Only the fact that they perpetrated terrorist attacks considering they weren't fighting any war makes them lose all their credibility.

Mandela wasn't fighting a war, does he have any credibility?

I don't understand why you seem to love Mandela but hate ETA. So it's a classic case of good terrorist:bad terrorist.

[Vlerchan]

Oh well, more than a half of the Scottish populations disagrees with you.
I'm not sure why you believe I would care about this.

I was also talking in general. As I said, I don't expect terrorism in Scotland.

I wonder how much time that will take.
Britain has found 30 billion in the last 4 years.

It's expected to find a further 50 in the next 4 to close the deficit at its current level. ( http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73120000/jpg/_73120912_f4816163-ab6b-4de6-8ab2-eb0de07c4dd9.jpg)

Would you mind explain what this has to do with Scotland independence?
Scottish people tend to be more left-wing than the island as a whole.

It's such the case that Scottish people, generally, don't like the new developments in British politics.

I value the idea that you don't need terrorists to achieve freedom.
Right.

Well I believe that violence is sometimes necessary to secure freedom and justice.

[Paladino]

The worst bit about the whole independence debate across the whole world is people who aren't even Scottish think they know what's best for us & our beautiful wee country.

Also there is no sudden desire for independence, there has always been a desire for independence, just not as strong as it is now. I'm not sure how Welsh or Northern Irish people feel, but scottish people don't want our country ran by Westminster anymore, it's as simple as that.

Please don't double-post. ~Typhlosion

[Living For Love]

Mandela wasn't fighting a war, does he have any credibility?
He was, against racism and oppression. What was ETA fighting for?

Britain has found 30 billion in the last 4 years.

It's expected to find a further 50 in the next 4 to close the deficit at its current level. ( http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73120000/jpg/_73120912_f4816163-ab6b-4de6-8ab2-eb0de07c4dd9.jpg)
Oh, projections, sure... I wonder if they counted with a possible Scotland independence in those projections.

Scottish people tend to be more left-wing than the island as a whole.

It's such the case that Scottish people, generally, don't like the new developments in British politics.
Oh, ok, it's just that you mentioned Thatcher, if their hatred from right-wing policies comes from that time, it's a bit late to be asking for independence now, don't you think?

Right.

Well I believe that violence is sometimes necessary to secure freedom and justice.
That's possible, but violence doesn't necessarily mean terrorism.

[Harry Smith]

He was, against racism and oppression. What was ETA fighting for?.

Freedom from Fascist spain, have you heard of General franco?

[phuckphace]

The NHS will remain free at the point of care-even if it's outsourced to a different company it will still be free.

and also less efficient because the contracting company will do a shit job with the shiftiest FOBs they can find and then bill everything to the NHS to line their own pockets. but anyway I'm pretty sure that's happened before/is happening now

[Living For Love]

Freedom from Fascist spain, have you heard of General franco?
I don't think they were thinking about Franco when they decided to blow a car in Barajas airport in 2006.

[Harry Smith]

and also less efficient because the contracting company will do a shit job with the shiftiest FOBs they can find and then bill everything to the NHS to line their own pockets. but anyway I'm pretty sure that's happened before/is happening now

I'm sure that is true in some cases-I just think that people assume that NHS has been this golden being since 1945 when it fact it's struggling to survive. I go to a dentist that is private and it's paid by the NHS-it does the job pretty well. That's as far as I'm happy to see it go though


I don't think they were thinking about Franco when they decided to blow a car in Barajas airport in 2006.

You asked what ETA were fighting for and I stated that in 1959 they were fighting against Fascist Franco

[Vlerchan]

Oh, projections, sure... I wonder if they counted with a possible Scotland independence in those projections.
On this basis, Scotland 'got' £16.5bn more in UK public spending in 2009-10 than it contributed to total UK revenues - or a 'subsidy' of around £3,150 per head.

Now it is customary - even south of the border - to point out that Scotland has greater spending needs than many other parts of the UK, because it has a higher unemployment rate, for example, and higher levels of expensive illnesses like heart disease and cancer.

So it's not necessarily a sign of great profligacy that the Scottish spend more per head. That is one reason why more than half of Scotland's public spending is allocated according to the dreaded "Barnett formula", which for sanity's sake I'm trying not to get into.

But Alex Salmond and his supporters have a more basic objection (phew), which is that the revenue figures for Scotland make no mention of North Sea oil. These are falling, but were still more than £6bn in 2009-10.

http://m.bbc.com/news/business-16477990

Basic maths indicates that Britain are going to be making as opposed to losing money off the split. Revenue on oil at the moment is actually a lot less than I presumed when I initiated this argument.

Your point is thus null.

Oh, ok, it's just that you mentioned Thatcher, if their hatred from right-wing policies comes from that time, it's a bit late to be asking for independence now, don't you think?
Britain is taking the Tatcherite line right now.

That's possible, but violence doesn't necessarily mean terrorism.
What is and isn't terrorism depends on your perspective.

For some the anti-government fighters in Syria are 'rebels' or 'freedom fighters'. For others they are 'terrorists'. It's just another aspect of war-time propaganda.

---

On what phuckphace is saying, it's private monopolies that are awful and not privatisation per se.

[Neverender]

I 100% support Scottish indepedence, as I hope one day my former Dominion of Newfoundland may separate from Canada. Scotland is more than capable of running itself, and while I'd separate from Canada to establish Newfoundland and Labrador as closer to the Monarch (We were an independant dominion on equal to Canada, except we stayed fiercely loyal to the crown and still are), I can understand Scotland's desire to get away from it if they would like to establish themselves as a republic

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Dominion_of_Newfoundland_(orthographic_projection).svg/250px-Dominion_of_Newfoundland_(orthographic_projection).svg.png

Scotland has a vast amount of Natural resources and oil reserves, and can run itself better by itself, imo. While all the UK constituencies have their independent Parliaments, each can be overruled by London (although the reverse isn't true)

Go Scotland. And don't fuck it up. You've got a hell of a chance going there

[britishboy]

I 100% support Scottish indepedence, as I hope one day my former Dominion of Newfoundland may separate from Canada. Scotland is more than capable of running itself, and while I'd separate from Canada to establish Newfoundland and Labrador as closer to the Monarch (We were an independant dominion on equal to Canada, except we stayed fiercely loyal to the crown and still are), I can understand Scotland's desire to get away from it if they would like to establish themselves as a republic.

I am also fiercely loyal to the crown so we're on the same page there but I must ask why separate from Canada? Surely you'd lose many benefits and be in a even worse position than if Scotland chose Independence?

[Paladino]

Well we were rejected our independence by the 55% of Scottish people who said NO. I hope when the country turns to shit, they are happy!

[phuckphace]

well sadly given the SNP's stance on the EU the whole thing seems like a lose-lose situation imho. there's little point in voting for "independence" when you're going to end up as another one of Merkel's fiefdoms anyway

[Harry Smith]

well sadly given the SNP's stance on the EU the whole thing seems like a lose-lose situation imho. there's little point in voting for "independence" when you're going to end up as another one of Merkel's fiefdoms anyway

don't worry she'll be in charge of the UN by 2015