We are sick of this sh*t!

[AlexanderTheGreat]

Here is a quote from a song by Enter Shikari called Gandhi Mate, Gandhi:

"Now, I don't know about you, but I don't think the primary purpose of your life, of my life and the entirety of the human race's is just to blindingly consume to support a failing economy and a faulty system. Forever and ever until we run out of every resource and have to resort to blowing each other up to ensure our own survival. I don't think we're supposed to sit by either while we continue to use a long outdated system that produces war, poverty, collusion, corruption, ruins our environment and threatens every aspect of our health and does nothing but divide and segregate us. I don't think how much military equipment we are selling to other countries, how many hydrocarbons we're burning, how much money is being printed and exchanged, is a good measure of how healthy our society is but I do think I can speak for everyone when I say, we're sick of this shit."

What do you think of this statement? Post your ideas below.


Here is the entire song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0o0uWJbS1s

[Rania]

Oh :o

[Stronk Serb]

Yup.

[CosmicNoodle]

Baically this quote sums up how I feel about the rest of the world

[Vlerchan]

You some sort of commie or something?

[Typhlosion]

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man.

What system is this that you speak of?

[Harry Smith]

Very good statment, many countries in this world seem to exist purely through warfare, and the exportation of warfare, along with that these countries tend to pollute the most and also show the most disregard for their citizens through lack of affordable housing, lack of healthcare and general disregard for any dissent, a parliament that is brought with money and rigged elections that favour the elites in power. Just look at how it deals with protests

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140814152058-aman-ferguson-police-horizontal-gallery.jpg

[Lovelife090994]

Very good statment, many countries in this world seem to exist purely through warfare, and the exportation of warfare, along with that these countries tend to pollute the most and also show the most disregard for their citizens through lack of affordable housing, lack of healthcare and general disregard for any dissent, a parliament that is brought with money and rigged elections that favour the elites in power. Just look at how it deals with protests

image (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140814152058-aman-ferguson-police-horizontal-gallery.jpg)

Okay we get it, you hate the US and any world power for that matter.

[Harry Smith]

Okay we get it, you hate the US and any world power for that matter.

I don't hate the US, the hate the policies introduced by American Governments, as I'm sure many other America citizens do. It tends to be a good idea to engage with the ideas in a debate rather than accusing people of simply hating a country. Two other members of this board-Gamma Male and Southside seem to share similar views to my on this issue-do they hate the US?

Do you have any comments about global warming, the 2000 election, the widespread use of torture, the funding of terrorist organisations, the denial of free healthcare, the pollution of the some of the most breathtaking areas of the US, the power of the big business.

The fact that you assume I hate the US only shows your failure to actually grasp the issue at hand. I could apply a number of these to the UK however then I'd be accused of hating my own country

[AlexanderTheGreat]

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man.

What system is this that you speak of?

The system that benefits only a selected few, that doesn't provide representation for the poorer and lower class, that promotes war and hatred and that fucks up this world. It's capitalism!!

[Ben_Frost]

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man.

What system is this that you speak of?

It isn't even his own opinion, it's the opinion of a singer he's quoting and that maybe he has adapted his own opinion to that one. For a singer it's easy to sing about that, but that doesn't take away he's profiting from his music and therefore depending on capitalism to be able to deliver that message he's singing... talk about hypocrisy.

[Lovelife090994]

I don't hate the US, the hate the policies introduced by American Governments, as I'm sure many other America citizens do. It tends to be a good idea to engage with the ideas in a debate rather than accusing people of simply hating a country. Two other members of this board-Gamma Male and Southside seem to share similar views to my on this issue-do they hate the US?

Do you have any comments about global warming, the 2000 election, the widespread use of torture, the funding of terrorist organisations, the denial of free healthcare, the pollution of the some of the most breathtaking areas of the US, the power of the big business.

The fact that you assume I hate the US only shows your failure to actually grasp the issue at hand. I could apply a number of these to the UK however then I'd be accused of hating my own country

Don't give me that side-story crapola, or that he is this and he is that rhetoric. You are more extreme than both. Do you honestly think all of America is the same? Yes, we have issues, but we are a country of over 300 million and we let in everybody, also we have so much corruption. The UK isn't perfect either, and I could go off in a very long rant about it's hypocrisy but I won't. Global warming is debatable, torture goes against the 5th amendment, terrorists are not funded by the US, healthcare needs to be cheaper if not free but America may not be able to afford it, pollution is everywhere and worse in China, and suck on that!

[Harry Smith]

Don't give me that side-story crapola, or that he is this and he is that rhetoric. You are more extreme than both. Do you honestly think all of America is the same? Yes, we have issues, but we are a country of over 300 million and we let in everybody, also we have so much corruption. The UK isn't perfect either, and I could go off in a very long rant about it's hypocrisy but I won't. Global warming is debatable, torture goes against the 5th amendment, terrorists are not funded by the US, healthcare needs to be cheaper if not free but America may not be able to afford it, pollution is everywhere and worse in China, and suck on that!

Looks like you didn't even read what I said the first time...

1) I don't think all of America is the same, hence why I said in another post that I don't blame American citizens for the actions carried out by the CIA. The entire american political system stops any change actually happening on that point.

2)You don't let everybody in http://www.ibtimes.com/illegal-immigration-40-year-low-us-mexico-border-still-kills-hundreds-1650692

3)Ugh I know the UK isn't perfect hence why I said this...

I could apply a number of these to the UK however then I'd be accused of hating my own country

4) Global warming isn't debatable, in fact most US citizens know believe it's real, the evidence also backs it up

http://environment.yale.edu/climate-communication/article/Climate-Beliefs-September-2012/

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/panel-global-warming-human-caused-dangerous-25133004

5)I've mentioned the 5th amendment several times on this site, yet many members still seem to support using it, along with the fact that both the Obama and Bush governments still favour all the legal rulings about torture that allowed it. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/world/us-practiced-torture-after-9-11-nonpartisan-review-concludes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

6) Ugh yes they are, have you heard of Cuba?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-state-sponsored-terrorism/5380222

7) America can afford to spend billions on it's 12th Aircraft carrier, it can afford to give 5 billion pounds to oil companies but it can't afford to free healthcare?

8) China being bad doesn't make America any better. You can't say 'oh everyone else does it it's fine' when it's clear that the US. China are just as much a problem, but doesn't mean that America should get a free pass

[Lovelife090994]

Looks like you didn't even read what I said the first time...

1) I don't think all of America is the same, hence why I said in another post that I don't blame American citizens for the actions carried out by the CIA. The entire american political system stops any change actually happening on that point.

2)You don't let everybody in http://www.ibtimes.com/illegal-immigration-40-year-low-us-mexico-border-still-kills-hundreds-1650692

3)Ugh I know the UK isn't perfect hence why I said this...



4) Global warming isn't debatable, in fact most US citizens know believe it's real, the evidence also backs it up

http://environment.yale.edu/climate-communication/article/Climate-Beliefs-September-2012/

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/panel-global-warming-human-caused-dangerous-25133004

5)I've mentioned the 5th amendment several times on this site, yet many members still seem to support using it, along with the fact that both the Obama and Bush governments still favour all the legal rulings about torture that allowed it. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/world/us-practiced-torture-after-9-11-nonpartisan-review-concludes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

6) Ugh yes they are, have you heard of Cuba?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-state-sponsored-terrorism/5380222

7) America can afford to spend billions on it's 12th Aircraft carrier, it can afford to give 5 billion pounds to oil companies but it can't afford to free healthcare?

8) China being bad doesn't make America any better. You can't say 'oh everyone else does it it's fine' when it's clear that the US. China are just as much a problem, but doesn't mean that America should get a free pass

Can't you summon a "fair enough" or "my mistake?" You can't blame all America's issues on one person and talk to the government on the health care. We are all still baffled on that here. I never said America should get a free pass, quit twisting things. Anyone violating the 5th amendment is breaking the law and illegality is not something I advocate Monsieur Harry. Leave Climate Change for elsewhere, I hate telling you my views. Cuba? What of it? The CIA and FBI are crooked too but I'm glad to hear of a busted terror plot by FBI informants. We do let people in. Our laws can go in on themselves. In America you are free to be whatever you want even if you hold terroristic views. Remember the Boston Bombing? Two Americans with strong Muslim views out of no where released their true selves. You can easily be a terrorist in America as long as you don't speak about it. Also, America has people leaving to join the jihad, it's all over the media today about two who died and I am so happy they did since being a traitor and joining terror groups are both deplorable. China builds a new power plant somewhere every week, their pollution is so bad that in some places you can't see the end of the streets! What worse, the pollution blows over the pacific and accommodates for anywhere from a seventh to a whopping fifth of all pollution in LA! But I digress, again! Have a good day or at least try to.

[phuckphace]

You some sort of commie or something?

http://i.imgur.com/cvlZ0kI.png

[Typhlosion]

The system that benefits only a selected few, that doesn't provide representation for the poorer and lower class, that promotes war and hatred and that fucks up this world. It's capitalism!!Hm? I argue that capitalism does not incite/promote hatred, rather reflect the inner corruptions of (a) man upon society. Are you suggesting we can nullify human emotions to the extent that they no longer affect society?

I meant what you suggest for the new system.

[Bleid]

To me, the quote looks like another vacuous statement about there being problems without any real substance behind what the problems actually are or any alternatives.

It also amuses me that it ends with, "we're sick of this shit."

Since, I was thinking a similar thing upon reading that quote.

[Harry Smith]

Hm? I argue that capitalism does not incite/promote hatred, rather reflect the inner corruptions of (a) man upon society. Are you suggesting we can nullify human emotions to the extent that they no longer affect society?

I meant what you suggest for the new system.

I wouldn't argue that either, I'd just say that capitalism can lead to the military-industrial complex developing, as Ike warned in the 1960's. For the last 50 years we've seen how oil has become a key player in foreign policy; you've had companies such as Anglo-Persian Petroleum lobbying the US/UK governments to overthrow Democratic nations (Iran 1953).


" You can't blame all America's issues on one person and talk to the government on the health care. . I never said America should get a free pass, quit twisting things. Anyone violating the 5th amendment is breaking the law and illegality is not something I advocate Monsieur Harry. Leave Climate Change for elsewhere, I hate telling you my views. Cuba? What of it? The CIA and FBI are crooked too but I'm glad to hear of a busted terror plot by FBI informants. We do let people in. Our laws can go in on themselves.. China builds a new power plant somewhere every week, their pollution is so bad that in some places you can't see the end of the streets! What worse, the pollution blows over the pacific and accommodates for anywhere from a seventh to a whopping fifth of all pollution in LA! But I digress, again! Have a good day or at least try to.

I admit China are bad, the irony is that just as they've started to develop the UN has told them they need to cut their emissions whilst the UK/US/EU have been benefiting from industrialization for 150 years without environmental restraint (to a degree)

Your stock response to the US environmental issues was to blame China, that's what I was picking up on.

In America you are free to be whatever you want even if you hold terroristic views

that's not actually true, the FBI seem to question people for simply googling stuff these days. I'd also argue that you're not free to hold those views-hence Guantanamo bay

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police-terrorism-pressure-cooker

image (http://i.imgur.com/cvlZ0kI.png)

I'm not skilled enough to photoshop anything but tbh monster Trotsky is my fave

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XYKXhdzjdbE/UAf6Q-BkXCI/AAAAAAAAAw8/UdKpTK_IGro/s1600/M06_TrotskyAsDevil.jpg

[AlexanderTheGreat]

Hm? I argue that capitalism does not incite/promote hatred, rather reflect the inner corruptions of (a) man upon society. Are you suggesting we can nullify human emotions to the extent that they no longer affect society?

I meant what you suggest for the new system.

i suggest one where everyone is equal and everyone is given equal opportunities. where people aren't discriminated. we need a more left wing and accepting society.

[Vlerchan]

I plan on writing a serious response to this thread at some stage - I'm lying on a hospital trolley-bed-thing at the moment (long story) and am not prepared to try construct a proper response now - but I feel I should add now that numerous alternatives to anglo-american capitalism (neoliberalism) exist and as I'll demonstrate given the chance would be far superior to the current status-quo.

And Lol at phuckphace's art-piece. It was masterful even before I spotted my avatar.

talk about hypocrisy.
I think you are misunderstanding socialist's moral objections to capitalism if you believe that's hypocritical.

[Gamma Male]

Two other members of this board-Gamma Male and Southside seem to share similar views to my on this issue-do they hate the US?

America tends to have better free speech laws than many other nations.

Other than that, yeah, pretty much. Europe's got us beat at most everything else.

[Typhlosion]

I'd just say that capitalism can lead to the military-industrial complex developing, as Ike warned in the 1960's. For the last 50 years we've seen how oil has become a key player in foreign policy; you've had companies such as Anglo-Persian Petroleum lobbying the US/UK governments to overthrow Democratic nations (Iran 1953).

Will not disagree.

i suggest one where everyone is equal and everyone is given equal opportunities. where people aren't discriminated. we need a more left wing and accepting society.

No one is equal, and no two people will ever be equal.
The moment we have inequality (not economic), we have discrimination.
Would you (or any arbitrary person) be more accepting of others in a society with more leftist-tendencies? Why?

And you didn't answer, what system, exactly, are you thinking of?

[AlexanderTheGreat]

Will not disagree.
And you didn't answer, what system, exactly, are you thinking of?

Ideally I would like left wing anarchism.

[Vlerchan]

How do you expect to arrive at left-anarchy?

What's next-to-ideal?

[Gamma Male]

How do you expect to arrive at left-anarchy?

What's next-to-ideal?

Sorry to just jump in here cuz I know you weren't asking me, but personally I'd like to start by transitioning to a mixed economy similar to the Nordic Model and then use the government as a catalyst to gradually give more and more power to the unions. I would also attempt to minimize the size of the government by cutting out all if the unnecessary stuff. Hate speech laws, the military, copyright laws, all that stuff. The stuff we do need like wildlife management, police forces, the EPA, it would all stay but I would attempt to make those things more or less independent and worker run.

At least, that's the general just of it. I'm sure as soon as I post this you'll come up with like 20 reasons why what I said is either inconsistent or wouldn't work and doesn't make any sense though. :lol:

[Typhlosion]

Ideally I would like left wing anarchism.Why would you expect an anarchic society to be characterized as "where everyone is equal and everyone is given equal opportunities. where people aren't discriminated [...] and accepting society"?

[Vlerchan]

Del. Because I'm sure Gamma Read it.

---

edit:

Serious response time. I'm going to put in context what this guy is saying so we can hold a proper debate.

[quote:] "Now, I don't know about you, but I don't think the primary purpose of your life, of my life and the entirety of the human race's is just to blindingly consume to support a failing economy and a faulty system."
His first claim is undebatable. In order for liberal capitalism in its current forum to continue function we must produce continuous growth: this entails continuous capital accumulation (and concentration, monopolisation) and so continues and ever-expanding consumption. Again, this is undebatable: I can explain why this is necessary if people want, but I'd prefer not to because it gets complicated. The problem here that he doesn't mention is this revolves around the idea of a continuously expanding energy supply, which may or may not happen - I won't concentrate on this however because despite being an interesting theory it's irrelevant to his claims.

His second point rests on the idea that we have a failing economy. We do live in failing economies: economies built around unsustainable levels of speculation and debt-backed consumption; or economies built around exporting to these aforementioned unsustainable economies, making export-led economies as unsustainable in any medium- to long-term as the aforementioned. It gets worse when you consider secular stagnation (http://www.voxeu.org/sites/default/files/Vox_secular_stagnation.pdf), which looks set to grip at least Europe, resulting in low growth, 'crazy' negative interest levels and without major structural change and always unreached full employment. It is failing - and looks set to fail further in the coming century.

His last claim is the most ambiguous, what's faulty about capatalism? Well, to me he could be referring to:
The non-sharing of productivity gains (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2014/07/02/opinion/070214krugman1/070214krugman1-blog480.png) with the average family, with the 1% seeing large parts of this growth (http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//3-7-12inc-fig2.jpg) and now taking in a whopping 21% of all income (http://currydemocrats.org/in_perspective/1_percent_share_of_pre_tax_income.jpg) after the crash, which itself has recovered during the 'recovery'.He could be talking about the finacialization of our economies (http://monthlyreview.org/2014/05/01/stagnation-and-financialization/): FIRE activities now make up a huge 21.5% (http://www.mybudget360.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fire-economy.jpg) of GDP - effectively turning our economies into casinos, relying on investor cash to keep us afloat.He could lastly be talking about the general rise in the monopolization of industry (http://monthlyreview.org/2011/04/01/monopoly-and-competition-in-twenty-first-century-capitalism), with oligopolies now existing within 40% of industries (http://monthlyreview.org/wp-content/uploads/old/2011/201104rom-chart1.jpg), which I shouldn't need to explain is awful for competition.
You can take your pick as for what he means there. It's awful whichever one you decide to choose.

[quote:] "Forever and ever until we run out of every resource and have to resort to blowing each other up to ensure our own survival."
I'm going to call this out as the 'neo-malthusian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism) fatalist bullshit' it is. There's a chance of this happening. It probably won't though.

[quote:] "I don't think we're supposed to sit by either while we continue to use a long outdated system that produces war[1], poverty[2], collusion[3], corruption[4], ruins our environment[5] and threatens every aspect of our health and does nothing but divide and segregate us[6]."
[1]: Patently true.

[2]: Bad criticism. Poverty is relative..

[3]: In modern capitalism the only collusion that exists is between our neoliberal governments and corporations - though I doubt this is what he's getting at. In a lot of cases (let's be fair to both sides here) governments don't have much of a choice but to collude because as a result of the globalisation of capital, capital now stands to be capable of threatening to just leave if everything isn't going well for them. That's a big part of why Free Trade can only be bad (in a lot of cases): it encourages this behaviour and consequently predatory labour-weakening by governments.

[4]: Also true. For example, look at the effects of corporate money on American democracy (http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gilens%20homepage%20materials/Gilens%20and%20Page/Gilens%20and%20Page%202014-Testing%20Theories%203-7-14.pdf).

[5]: Also true. Oil companies (the most obvious example) etc. donate hundreds of millions to combating work against climate change, and by extension their profit margins.

[6]: Untrue. It's politicians who divide and segregate us through appeals to nationalism etc.

[quote:] "I don't think how much military equipment we are selling to other countries, how many hydrocarbons we're burning, how much money is being printed and exchanged, is a good measure of how healthy our society is but I do think I can speak for everyone when I say, we're sick of this shit."
I actually think this last line isn't rallying against any of the particularities mentioned, but rather just GDP fetishism (https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/gdp-fetishism), where individuals hold levels of GDP as the holy grail of economic success. Now, it's true that countries with high levels of GDP per capita tend to be countries with high level of welfare, but GDP itself does not indicate accurately a societies welfare levels. That's why the current level of overemphasis on it is bad.

Even hard rightist dislike this obsession. (http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2010/HendersonGDP.html)

---

But what can we do?! Vlerchan.

http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/may_jun_09_schweickart

I've linked a nice, easy-to-read open latter above. It's written by a leftist mathmatician named David Schweickart and concerns a transition away from debt- and speculation-led liberal capatalism, to consumption led market socialism. He wrote an entire book on this but since I don't expect you to go and buy it, you'll have to make do with this. I could suggest other alternatives: I like the look of the Nordic model too, but currently this is what I find most appealing. It's decentralised, its equitable, it's sustainable, and it produces competition to ensure innovation - though socialism can be innovative too (http://people.umass.edu/dmkotz/Soc_and_Innovation_02.pdf).

---

edit2:

Why would you expect an anarchic society to be characterized as "where everyone is equal and everyone is given equal opportunities. where people aren't discriminated [...] and accepting society"?
I can answer for the bolded: culture is a product of material realities.

We currently exist within what is still a quite predatory phrase of human development. In embracing communism (left-anarchy), whilst this culture of predation would still exist: obviously, there's more to compete over than just resources, it would be lessened hugely. Coupled with our transition to a new set of relations with the means of production, would be a shift in values towards those more reflective of these new, more egalitarian, more inclusive, relations. Our current capitalist system favours the fostering of masculine values: Our hypothetically-adopted socialist system however would favour the fostering of feminine values [See] (http://www.normanchorn.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Masculine_Feminine_table.png).