Why Moral Capitalism Cannot Exist

[*Dissident*]

First off, let me just say, I have no definite solution to the problem I am about to present. I don't even know if a humane one exists. Oh well.

Thesis: Capitalism, by definition of its design and intention, cannot be morally sound for those participating or for the planet's well being.

Capitalism's main mechanism is consumption: The individual consuming material goods and services. This is achieved by the trading of currency (usually with no actual value) for the good or service, which then continues to be traded by those providing said good or service for different goods or services, etc. But what happens when a particular good or service is no longer required?

Food and water are essentially the only goods that MUST be perpetually provided, used, and disposed of. They are the only things essential to human survival, and really the ultimate goal of the capitalist (and any other economic) system. Other than that, everything is either a one-time use/need or purely cosmetic, or for comfort. Shoe Shining, car cleaning, electronic sales, architects, fashion designers, etc.

But lets face it, no one wants to live on the bare essentials. So thats where things like ipods and cars and computers come in. You really dont need those things, but they usually make life more worth living. But in reality, you really only need one ipod, one car, one computer, one pair of good shoes, etc. You spend a finite amount of your earned cash on these things, and really only need to spend on them again if they are broken beyond use. That ideal doesnt make many jobs or make much money, does it? If you only ever buy one ipod, and keep good care of it, and everyone who ever buys an ipod only ever buys one, then how will the Apple Factory keep in business once people no longer need an ipod?

They do this by inventing a new one, with mostly useless changes and tweaks. Color screen, more streamlined interface, more shiq design, 10% more capacity, etc. Not a single one of those things makes it more enjoyable to listen to good music. Its all worthless crap they stick on there to make you want to buy another ipod instead of keeping your old one. But how do they make you not notice how much crap it is to spend $400 on a new ipod when you already have a perfectly fine one that, by the way, you spent $400 on before because you HAD to have one? Advertising.

With enough exposure, of seemingly happier-than-you-are people listening to an ipod, laughing, loving, living, all presumably because they have a new ipod, it makes you YEARN to have that all powerful happy-device. So you spend $400 on a new ipod, keeping the factory open, giving thousands their jobs, and fueling the corporate machine. This depletes resources from the earth and depletes money from other, more useful endeavors...like ending hunger, disease, and war in third world countries and our own.

If people stopped buying, more people would lose their jobs. Those people wouldnt be able to buy things like cars and phones, so people who make cars and phones lose their jobs. They cant go on vacation and can't afford abercrombie clothes. Those people that sell timeshares and stitch clothes lose their jobs. eventually it goes back to the person who decided not to buy the ipod in the first place.

Capitalism cannot be both successful and moral. If it is successful, it robs the earth and the poor, and supports those who consume tirelessly. If it is moral, everyone looses.

I dont know what will work. Communism perhaps. Anarchy maybe. Or maybe we are all destined to either be soulless consumer whores, or go hungry.

[theOperaGhost]

Very interesting stuff. I've never really looked at things like that, but I'm one of the people that buy things I need. I have what I consider to be a lot of money because I save it. I only spend when I need to. The only things I've ever bought for pleasure were my car and an Xbox 360. I paid for the car completely, with one payment. I said two years before I bought my car that when I saved $10,000, I was going to buy a car, and two years later, I saved $10,000 and bought a $7000 car and put the rest in a certificate of deposit. Now my original $10,000 has almost doubled and if I sold my car I'd have over $20,000.

[Maverick]

Capitalism.You can guess I love it if you notice my signature. ;)I must say although I completely disagree with your post, if you wrote all of that, you wrote a really good debate.

Capitalism is freedom. If you earn money and want something, you can have it. Thanks to capitalism you're allowed to post on the computer and on this website. Your computer and a teen website isn't an essential but it consumes energy and resources but thanks to capitalism you're allowed to have such a thing.

If you think all those ipods and gadgets are useless, then you know what, you don't have to buy it. If the market agrees with you then its the end of the product and then its time to innovate something else. But what gives you the right to say that just because you think its useless, other people can't have them? Capitalism gives the freedom to buy or not to buy, so nobody loses. Tell me what's so wrong with people deciding for themselves what they want and don't want then having the free market adapt to the needs?

I find it laughable that you think capitalism cannot be successful. Just look at all of the technological advances we have made in the past century.

Your life can be as much or as little consuming as you want it to be because capitalism gives you that choice. Right now I have $1,100 in my savings account because I've been working and only buying things I need... shoes for work, gas, food, etc. I plan to buy a car after working full time in the summer. So I'm not a 'consumer'whore' but capitalism isn't punishing me because of it. With freedom comes responsibility and I'm able to save because I have self control.

You're delusional if you think communism or anarchy are better alternatives. Communism redistributes wealth while the people at the top enjoy the luxuries that capitalist societies do. So tell me what's moral about that? I think its immoral to take from someone else forcibly to give for the 'common good.' I believe people have the choice to decide how much or how little charities and poor deserve their money. They earned it and have the right to decide for themselves. By forcing it is implying that someone has a higher claim on the persons life than him/herself.

[Bankai15]

^ couldnt have said it better myself...

[*Dissident*]

I think i deliberately said I do NOT know a solution. I merely suggested that communism might be a strictly economically moral solution, but not what comes with it.

I'm not saying an ipod or car are useless. I'm saying that the system of obsoletism that keeps capitalism running is immoral. I love my ipod, and I love my car. I get a lot of enjoyment out of both. But if I only buy one, ever, I am not doing my job as a consumer. To Big businesses, that is ALL I AM. I am a demographic, a bank account, a target for advertising, etc. If I only buy one of their products, and if everyone only bought one, then they would fail. That is not how they are designed. It is designed so that we, the consumers, have to keep buying, keep stimulating the economy.

Want a historical reference to what I am talking about? The Great Depression. Originally caused because of a catastrophic failure in the stock market and banking industry, it eventually led to an across the board failure in capitalism.

Do you know what President Roosevelt's "Brain Trust" came up with to fix it? they saw that the major flaw in capitalism was under-consumption. If people stopped buying things, then the depression worsened. People lost their job, people couldnt eat, it was horrible. And that was before we even had the system of obsoletism. The brain trust saw that to fix the depression, people had to buy more stuff. They invented programs to get people spending their money, like Social Security, (The entire purpose of which was to get old people to spend their money), and saw the origin of brand loyalty, the mascot, advertising aimed at children, and more. While that evenutally brought us out of the black, the only thing that really brought us up to where we are today was a war that killed tens of millions fueled by american machines and weapons.

Even today, with the way capitalism works, there is an inordinate amount of poor, and an inordinate amount of filthy stinking rich. Capitalism involves the transfer of wealth from the working man, to a business. And since we have very large businesses and corporations these days, it involves the transfer of wealth from the working man to a very large business which is dominated by rich white men.

[Maverick]

How is communism moral?

You can't say capitalism is bad here in America when in our lifetime true capitalism hasn't been put to the test. There's a lot of government intervention into the markets and that's a major cause of the problems we face today. So why ask for more government control when its proven by our system that too much regulation causes more harm?

I do agree that there is a transfer of wealth from the poor/middle class to the rich. I will not deny it because I know its happening. But is that the result of capitalism and free markets? No.

Have you ever researched monetary policy? Although its a boring subject you should look into it because it will make a lot of sense to the problems we're facing. Wealth is down to money so let's talk about the currency - the dollar.

Up until 1913 Congress held the power to coin money. The founding fathers purposely gave that power to the people. In 1913 the Federal Reserve was created which is a private bank that controls the issuance of the currency and the supply of it. Yes it is a private bank with no sort of accountability. The Federal Reserve took the power of the monetary system from the people to a small number of bankers.

The Great Depression was not caused by free markets and capitalism but by mismanagement from the Federal Reserve Bank. The Fed increased the money supply and while it was okay for awhile and benefited the banks and stock market, it couldn't sustain. So when the Fed raised interest rates to slow things down, it all collapsed.

What prolonged the Depression you may ask? Not the failure of capitalism but massive government intervention to fix the problem. Americans turned to government for help and their "help" only made economic conditions worst and prolonged it.

Capitalism isn't the cause of transfer of wealth from the poor/middle class to the already wealthy. There are two things that made such a thing possible:
- The Creation of Federal Reserve
- Abolition of the Gold Standard

The abolition of the gold standard allowed more manipulation and mismanagement of the currency. The US dollar is backed by nothing so its able to be inflated and deflated at will of the Federal Reserve.

Want to know how that hurts the poor/middle class and benefits the rich?

Congress spends trillions of dollars a year but where does all that money come from? It certainly all doesn't come from taxes. When Congress can't tax anymore but have a bill to pay, the next step is borrow from foreigners. We borrow 3 billion dollars a day from foreigners, mostly coming from China.

But oops even with taxes and foreign borrowing we still can't pay the tab, so then Congress goes to the Federal Reserve to receive a loan to pay the difference. Like I said earlier the dollar is backed by nothing so they just print the money to finance the difference of taxation and borrowing. Of course they don't actually print all of it (a figure of speech) but its going on a computer and pressing a few buttons. The government pays interest on the loan and pays the loan back with another loan so it just piles up, hence the national debt.

The Federal Reserve doesn't just print money to the government but to bankers and Wall Street as well. So they benefit from the extra money which they do in the name on helping the economy, but it hurts.

Printing too much money causes inflation then prices go up and it devalues the dollar. That's why oil prices are record high right now because the Fed is cutting interest rates, printing money to banks, and Wall Street. All the newly created money goes to the very wealthy. As for the poor and middle class, their wages stay the same but prices go up, so that's how their cost of living increases and standard of living decreases.

We aren't a nation of capitalism but a nation of debt and cheap credit. We live beyond our means and finance entitlements and wars we can't afford.

Free markets and a sound currency will lead to prosperity.

We have the same concerns but you have the look at the roof of the problem. Capitalism isn't the problem but a spendthrift government, bad monetary policy, the Federal Reserve bank are.

Thomas Jefferson even warned us about banks like the Federal Reserve.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.

[*Dissident*]

While this is true, I dont think you understand what I am getting at. Yes, the Fed is a cause of a quickly diminishing dollar. But that is not the root cause of the immorality that I am talking about. The fact that capitalism cannot sustain itself without people constantly buying things that they dont need is the problem I mean.

[Maverick]

I don't understand your logic. Please tell me how people having freedom to able to buy things is a problem.

I do agree living beyond your means is a problem but needs and wants make life more enjoyable.

[Underground_Network]

I've gotta agree with Ant on this topic.. People having the freedom to buy things isn't much of problem at all.. And needs and wants to make life better.. Communism is an extreme solution for a problem that might not even exist.

[Techno Monster]

I agree with ant to.

[*Dissident*]

Where did I say have the freedom to buy things was wrong? All I am trying to say is that capitalism can only survive as long as we buy needlessly. Your twisting my words.

[dissent]

Capitalism.You can guess I love it if you notice my signature. ;)I must say although I completely disagree with your post, if you wrote all of that, you wrote a really good debate.

Capitalism is freedom. If you earn money and want something, you can have it. Thanks to capitalism you're allowed to post on the computer and on this website. Your computer and a teen website isn't an essential but it consumes energy and resources but thanks to capitalism you're allowed to have such a thing.

If you think all those ipods and gadgets are useless, then you know what, you don't have to buy it. If the market agrees with you then its the end of the product and then its time to innovate something else. But what gives you the right to say that just because you think its useless, other people can't have them? Capitalism gives the freedom to buy or not to buy, so nobody loses. Tell me what's so wrong with people deciding for themselves what they want and don't want then having the free market adapt to the needs?

I find it laughable that you think capitalism cannot be successful. Just look at all of the technological advances we have made in the past century.

Your life can be as much or as little consuming as you want it to be because capitalism gives you that choice. Right now I have $1,100 in my savings account because I've been working and only buying things I need... shoes for work, gas, food, etc. I plan to buy a car after working full time in the summer. So I'm not a 'consumer'whore' but capitalism isn't punishing me because of it. With freedom comes responsibility and I'm able to save because I have self control.

You're delusional if you think communism or anarchy are better alternatives. Communism redistributes wealth while the people at the top enjoy the luxuries that capitalist societies do. So tell me what's moral about that? I think its immoral to take from someone else forcibly to give for the 'common good.' I believe people have the choice to decide how much or how little charities and poor deserve their money. They earned it and have the right to decide for themselves. By forcing it is implying that someone has a higher claim on the persons life than him/herself.

how can u say capitalism is freedom when there are starving people are you saying they chose to starve you can have a capitalist society with slavery is that freedom no, freedom is different to communism or capitalism freedom is liberty you can just as free a communist government as capitalist 1

[Maverick]

Where did I say have the freedom to buy things was wrong? All I am trying to say is that capitalism can only survive as long as we buy needlessly. Your twisting my words.
I'm not attempting to twist your words I just don't understand your point I guess. I don't know what economy can survive if people don't buy unless you abolish the monetary system and some monolithic government gives us al what (they think) we need.

how can u say capitalism is freedom when there are starving people are you saying they chose to starve you can have a capitalist society with slavery is that freedom no, freedom is different to communism or capitalism freedom is liberty you can just as free a communist government as capitalist 1
I never said people choose to starve but capitalism and a free society allows you to come out of those boundaries to improve your quality of life. Capitalism also gives you the freedom to help others. To believe the only way to help starving people is through a government is being narrow minded. Local private charities do a better job than government.

Just as an example if a grocery store doesn't sell all its food for a given time, once its reached its expiration or 'sell by' date, it can't be sold anymore. All that food goes to private charies and pantries which then give to the poor. My mom volunteers at one a few times a week. Sure it may have reached the sell by date, but as long as you eat it a few days after it won't kill you and doubt it will be that much different.

So there are ways the poor can be helped in a capitalistic society, its just too many people don't think outside the box and decide if government doesn't do it it doesn't happen without realizing that there are people out there who don't get recognized who help the poor.

[*Dissident*]

Thats kind of what I was suggesting. I mean, not what the government chooses to give you, but whatever.

I'm really abdicated some sort of control over the amount of consumerism and materialism in this country.

[A.J.]

I like the whole idea of communism, in fact when we were to try and create a perfect country for a school project, my government was communist. But Communism dosent work because leaders are to corrupt for any form of government to be perfect