Israel/Gaza Conflict

[rtw1997]

For those who have been following international affairs: How closely have you paid attention to the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and more specifically, Israel's current "Operation Protective Edge" in the Gaza Strip? Also, who do you feel is at fault in this conflict? Should the West continue to press for a ceasefire or stand back and let Israel crush Hamas?

[Vlerchan]

How closely have you paid attention to the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict ...
Lots.

... and more specifically, Israel's current "Operation Protective Edge" in the Gaza Strip?
Lots.

Also, who do you feel is at fault in this conflict?
Isreal.

Unless someone is going to argue that the Palestinians deserve this for daring exist.

Should the West continue to press for a ceasefire or stand back and let Israel crush Hamas?
It should move roughly like this:

> Ceasefire.
> Negotiations as to the formation of a Palestinian state.
> Israel withdrawing from areas now deemed part of the new Palestinian state.
> Leading members of Hamas and the Isreali government being dragged of for war crimes.

I want Hamas leaders in particular dragged off for war crimes because I want Islamism neutered in the region.

[rtw1997]

Isreal.

Unless someone is going to argue that the Palestinians deserve this for daring exist.


Do you not feel that Hamas is at least partially at fault for being the initial aggressors, firing rockets into Israel and murdering those teenagers? What about their exploitation of women and children and using them as human shields, and repeatedly violating the ceasefires that have already been agreed upon? In my view, Israel is not fighting this hard enough and has been far too generous toward Hamas, the U.N., etc. When Israel warns Gazans when and where an attack will take place, giving civilians time to evacuate and seek shelter, and Hamas ignores it and allows innocents to be killed, I think it's pretty clear who has the moral high ground here.

[chrisawesome]

Does it really matter? Isn't the smart thing for us to do is stay out before we get our ass blown out!

[Gamma Male]

A lone Hama terrorist fires an rpg into Israel and kills many civillians, so the Israeli military responds by firing missile strikes and killing more civillians, and the Palestinians are to blame?

[Vlerchan]

Do you not feel that Hamas is at least partially at fault for being the initial aggressors ...
Hamas didn't open the aggression.

I also don't believe that Hamas is not guilty here. I just believe that Israel is a lot more guilty. I would have hit the 'Other' option on your poll if there was one.

... firing rockets into Israel ...
In response to Isreali aggression?

I also disagree with firing on civilian population centres. I hope both Israel and Palestine are punished for it when this is all over.

... murdering those teenagers?
Please present verifiable evidence supporting this claim. Thank you.

In my view, Israel is not fighting this hard enough and has been far too generous toward Hamas, the U.N., etc.
I hope you realise that by fighting 'harder' is exactly what Hamas wants Israel to do.

I'll go to another post on the subject:

Hamas has, in the last decade or so, over about 15,000 strikes, killed roughly 30 Isreali civilians - it's killed 2 in the most recent conflict.It's commits these strikes, not because it feels killing a few civilians will get it far (so, it's primary intent is not to kill civilians), but rather because it is looking for Isreali to strike back, disproportionately and with maximum emotional impact for the Western audiences at home, making Isreal look like an big-bad aggressor (a success, if you ask me): Hamas realizes that it's only by winning the propaganda war that it has a chance of a sovereign Palestinian state. It's what the Kosovan Seperatists did in the 90s.

The UN is going to end up doing all the hard work for the Palestinians if Israel keep it up - let's not speak of fighting harder.

When Israel warns Gazans when and where an attack will take place, giving civilians time to evacuate and seek shelter, and Hamas ignores it and allows innocents to be killed, I think it's pretty clear who has the moral high ground here.
Both are awful. Neither have any moral high ground.

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A lone Hama terrorist fires an rpg into Israel and kills many civillians, so the Israeli military responds by firing missile strikes and killing more civillians, and the Palestinians are to blame?
Hamas hasn't killed more than one civilian per strike.

It's killed two civilians the entire (2014) conflict. Israel are running at about 500.

[Babs]

I misread the topic, and subsequently voted that I thought the Palestinians are to blame. I don't, I think Israel is

and murdering those teenagers??
As I recall, Israel is also killing children. No one is safe in Palestine.

[rtw1997]

Please present verifiable evidence supporting this claim. Thank you.


Not sure exactly what you're looking for, but it is pretty clear that Hamas was responsible for the murders, and they were a catalyst for the present conflict.

More: http://nyti.ms/1z4FpMs

[Vlerchan]

Not sure exactly what you're looking for, but it is pretty clear that Hamas was responsible for the murders, and they were a catalyst for the present conflict.
Your evidence doesn't support your claim that Hamas were responsible.

“They are familiar with Hamas, everybody knows they support Hamas, but I can’t say they are officially part of the Hamas military wing,” said Shlomi Eldar, whose 2011 book, “Getting to Know Hamas,” includes material about members of the Qawasmeh family carrying out 13 suicide bombings in the second Palestinian intifada. “I’m sure they didn’t get any green light from the leadership of Hamas, they just thought it was the right time to act.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/02/world/middleeast/details-emerge-in-deaths-of-israeli-teenagers.html?smid=pl-share&_r=0

It does support the idea though that two Palestinian men commit a crime and the Isreali government decided to punish the entire Palestinian people for it.

[thatcountrykid]

hamas seems to me to be exatly like al queda.

[Babs]

hamas seems to me to be exatly like al queda.

So does that mean you think Palestine is in the wrong?

[rtw1997]

Your evidence doesn't support your claim that Hamas were responsible.


Perhaps I should have phrased it differently to better convey the point I was making. The evidence is definitive that radical Islamist Palestinian Hamas sympathizers carried out the act, and it could have been orchestrated by Hamas itself, but that has not been proven.

As the Times article states, "Hamas leaders have praised the kidnapping." Palestine's defenders will naturally attempt to skirt the issue and get out on a technicality. But it is abundantly clear that these innocent teenagers were slaughtered with the Hamas stamp of approval.

[Vlerchan]

The evidence is definitive that radical Islamist Palestinian Hamas sympathizers carried out the act ...
I agree.

It should be noted that these men are still not representative of Hamas as far as is known. It is also quite unlikely (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html) they were.

... and it could have been orchestrated by Hamas itself, but that has not been proven.
It could have also been orchestrated by the Isrealis as part of some false flag operation.

Regardless I'm not prepared to engage with unbacked speculation.

As the Times article states, "Hamas leaders have praised the kidnapping." Palestine's defenders will naturally attempt to skirt the issue and get out on a technicality.
I realise that members within Hamas praised the kidnappings. You'll have to explain how that equates to them doing it.

In terms of official Palestinian authority the Palestinian president said:

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas spoke out Wednesday against the kidnapping of three Israeli teens and demanded their immediate release.“Those who perpetrated this act want to destroy us [the Palestinians],” Abbas, who is visiting Saudi Arabia, said. “The three young men are human beings just like us and must be returned to their families.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-kidnapped-youths-must-be-returned/

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You also skirted around by claims of collective punishment by the Isreali state. I did notice.

But it is abundantly clear that these innocent teenagers were slaughtered with the Hamas stamp of approval.
I don't believe that certain individual exercising their rights to freedom of speech in a way that Israel disagrees with justifies an invasion.

[thatcountrykid]

So does that mean you think Palestine is in the wrong?

well not the innocent civilians killed. im saying hamas fighters and leaders.

[rtw1997]

In response to the commentary about the Gaza death toll and the killing of civilians, we must realize what Hamas is doing and how it uses civilians as human shields and salivates at the idea of a higher human toll (that way it can wail about how Israel is a fascist terrorist state using indiscriminate warfare against Palestinians, etc, etc...)

Here are some relevant points from a recent Wall St. Journal op-ed piece:

"Let's state the obvious: No one likes to see dead children. Well, that's not completely true: Hamas does. They would prefer those children to be Jewish, but there is greater value to them if they are Palestinian. Outmatched by Israel's military, handicapped by rocket launchers with the steady hands of Barney Fife, Hamas is playing the long game of moral revulsion."

"All the ordinary rules of warfare are upended in Gaza. Everything about this conflict is asymmetrical—Hamas wears no uniforms and they don't meet Israeli soldiers on battlefields. With the exception of kaffiyeh scarves, it isn't possible to distinguish a Hamas militant from a noncombatant pharmacist."

"On some basic level, you forfeit your right to be called civilians when you freely elect members of a terrorist organization as statesmen, invite them to dinner with blood on their hands and allow them to set up shop in your living room as their base of operations. At that point you begin to look a lot more like conscripted soldiers than innocent civilians. And you have wittingly made yourself targets."

"In the U.S. if a parent is found to have locked his or her child in a parked car on a summer day with the windows closed, a social worker takes the children away from the demonstrably unfit parent. In Gaza, parents who place their children in the direct line of fire are rewarded with an interview on MSNBC where they can call Israel a genocidal murderer."

Full article:
http://on.wsj.com/1sG7Wq4

[saea97]

I really don't know how Israel is supposed to deal with this in a way that won't either result in international isolation or being perceived as weak by other surrounding Islamist groups.

I agree with some posts above regarding Hamas' propaganda war and "game of moral revulsion". Given how deeply Hamas is embedded into Gaza, where they store their weapons, and the fact that their charter instructs Muslims not to flee (and validates human shielding), I think it would be extraordinarily difficult for Israel to avoid civilian casualties. As far as I am aware, no army in history has ever taken such precautions to avoid attacks against civilians. It is a policy of the IDF to telephone warnings to houses being targeted, to give a ‘knock on the roof’ in the form of a small non-explosive shell dropped on buildings about to be bombed, to abort attacks at the last minute if civilians are sighted. And let's be honest, Israel has nothing to gain from killing Palestinian children. Every time a new story breaks about a school full of missiles (and children) being hit, it's a victory for Hamas, because it alienates the West from Israel.
I don't believe anyone in Israel seriously entertains the notion of reoccupying the Strip (and contrary to media claims, Gaza was deoccupied by Sharon in 2005), but on the other side of the coin, here are some quotes from Hamas' charter to further illustrate why I consider them 'culpable' in terms of your poll:

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them)"
"The land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf…nobody can renounce it"
"The Islamic Resistance Movement...strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine" (thus, Hamas has no interest in the two-state solution)
"Jihad…becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman" (justifying the horrific policy of human shielding and siting missiles in schools, from which Israel cannot emerge without being perceived as the 'bad guy')

But of course, Hamas isn't Gaza and it certainly isn't Palestine. So how does Israel deal with the problem? Frankly, I don't know. Time and again Israel has reached out to Gaza, and Hamas has commandeered the aid to invest in rockets. In this latest war (despite the disparity in death toll being explicable by Hamas' charter [when missiles are fired, Israel tells it's citizens to save themselves, Hamas tells Gazans to sacrifice themselves] and Israel's defence system) Jews around Europe have seen anti-semitism on the rise. Hamas' victory has been in making Israel be perceived negatively.

As I see it, the extirpation of Hamas is the only solution, but an idealistic one and one impossible to implement with Israel's growing status as a pariah.

[Vlerchan]

(that way it can wail about how Israel is a fascist terrorist state using indiscriminate warfare against Palestinians, etc, etc...)
Israel is using indiscriminate warfare regardless of how much pressure Hamas places on Palestinian citizens to stick around.

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I think it would be extraordinarily difficult for Israel to avoid civilian casualties.
Lots of people aren't so sure that they are trying so hard. (anyway.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine)

Here's what the UN concluded last time.



[P. 24]The tactics used by the Israeli armed forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. The Mission concludes from a review of the facts on the ground that it witnessed for itself that what was prescribed as the best strategy appears to have been precisely what was put into practice.

[...]

[P. 274] The Mission recalls in this regard its analysis of the Israeli objectives and strategies during the military operations in chapter XVI. There the Mission referred to statements made by Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai on 6 January 2009: "It [should be] possible to destroy Gaza, so they will understand not to mess with us”. He added that “it is a great opportunity to demolish thousands of houses of all the terrorists, so they will think twice before they launch rockets”. The Mission also referred to the so-called Dahiya doctrine, which requires widespread destruction as a means of deterrence and seems to have been put into practice. These objectives and strategies should be kept in mind with regard to the following analysis.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

As far as I am aware, no army in history has ever taken such precautions to avoid attacks against civilians.
It seems to me like people aren't as upset about collateral damage as how much of it there is.

It's the perceived over-the-top nature of Isreali retaliations that's the problem.

It is a policy of the IDF to telephone warnings to houses being targeted, to give a ‘knock on the roof’ in the form of a small non-explosive shell dropped on buildings about to be bombed, to abort attacks at the last minute if civilians are sighted.
[P. 18 & P. 19]The Mission examined how the Israeli armed forces discharged their obligation to take all feasible precautions to protect the civilian population of Gaza, including particularly the obligation to give effective advance warning of attacks (chap. IX). The Mission acknowledges the significant efforts made by Israel to issue warnings through telephone calls, leaflets and radio broadcasts, and accepts that in some cases, particularly when the warnings were sufficiently specific, they encouraged residents to leave an area and get out of harm’s way. However, the Mission also notes factors that significantly undermined the effectiveness of the warnings issued. These include the lack of specificity and thus credibility of many pre-recorded phone messages and leaflets. The credibility of instructions to move to city centres for safety was also diminished by the fact that the city centres themselves had been the subject of intense attacks during the air phase of the military operations. The Mission also examined the practice of dropping lighter explosives on roofs (so-called roof knocking). It concludes that this technique is not effective as a warning and constitutes a form of attack against the civilians inhabiting the building. Finally, the Mission stresses that the fact that a warning was issued does not relieve commanders and their subordinates of taking all other feasible measures to distinguish between civilians and combatants.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

In regards to telephone calls:

[P. 125] The Mission is also aware of circumstances in which telephone warnings may have caused fear and confusion. Al-Bader Flour Mills Co. (see chap. XIII) received two recorded messages indicating the mill was to be destroyed, but neither of these was acted upon. Five days later the mill was struck in the early hours of the morning with no warning whatsoever. The owners of the business and their staff suffered anxiety by having to evacuate the premises on two occasions as a result of receiving such messages when no strikes took place.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

In regards to roof-knocking in specific:

[P. 131] In the context of a large-scale military operation including aerial attacks, civilians cannot be expected to know whether a small explosion is a warning of an impending attack or part of an actual attack.

[...]

The legal requirement is for an effective warning to be given. This means that it should not require civilians to guess the meaning of the warning.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

In regards to evacuations in specific:

[P. 128] During its meetings with people in Gaza the Mission was told on several occasions of the sense that there was “nowhere to go”. The nature of the attacks in the first week had caused deep shock. The widespread attacks created a dilemma not only about where to go but about whether it was safe to leave at all.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

It should be noted that Israel are bombing Gaza city centre this time around too so I would presume the same confusion about where to go is prevalent amongst Palestinians again.

As I see it, the extirpation of Hamas is the only solution, but an idealistic one and one impossible to implement with Israel's growing status as a pariah.
And here's the difference in our positions:

I'd consider this to be effectively calling for genocide because that's what it would almost necessarily entail.

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In the long-term the only two solutions to the issue that I can see working are the construction of a Palestinian state and genocide.

I tend towards the former.

[saea97]

RE precautionary measures

The lack of places for Gazans to evacuate is not Israel's fault. After the deoccupation in 2005 Hamas spent it's time stockpiling weapons and building tunnels. The few bomb shelters that were built were built for the safety of Hamas leaders.

I don't know if there is any more detail Israel can really provide in it's warnings, short of broadcasting it's entire military M.O.

In terms of the 'amount of collateral' - this still seems attributable to the various pieces of Hamas' charter through which they justify siting missile bases in schools, and the fact that Hamas prevents Palestinians from leaving the area when it is bombed (as in Shujaya).


And here's the difference in our positions:

I'd consider this to be effectively calling for genocide because that's what it would almost necessarily entail.

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In the long-term the only two solutions to the issue that I can see working are the construction of a Palestinian state and genocide.

I tend towards the former.

Detain and imprison Hamas operatives indefinitely then, if we're going to throw 'genocide' around (which would entail the attempted slaughter of all Palestinians: not what I said). Hamas' charter gives us no reason to believe a two-state solution would be effective while they maintain an operating presence. Israel is a reasonable party with a huge vested interest in keeping the West on side. Hamas is a rabid dog, and the Palestinians are, unfortunately, caught in the middle, and should be freed of the terrorist group which is leading them into disaster.

Co-ordination between Israel and the Arab League to detain Hamas members should be a priority, after which a two-state solution stands a much higher chance. Create a DMZ, if need be, but this problem requires more integration, not less, so that's not really a solution. That is my proposal, not genocide.

I do believe, however, that Israel is entirely within it's rights to conduct it's current ground campaign with the goal of destroying Hamas' extensive array of tunnels - and with regard to preventing collateral, a ground presence shows willingness on Israel's part to risk their own soldiers to avoid hurting Palestinians with imprecise airstrikes.

[Bull]

Do you not feel that Hamas is at least partially at fault for being the initial aggressors, firing rockets into Israel and murdering those teenagers? What about their exploitation of women and children and using them as human shields, and repeatedly violating the ceasefires that have already been agreed upon? In my view, Israel is not fighting this hard enough and has been far too generous toward Hamas, the U.N., etc. When Israel warns Gazans when and where an attack will take place, giving civilians time to evacuate and seek shelter, and Hamas ignores it and allows innocents to be killed, I think it's pretty clear who has the moral high ground here.

Hamas is the aggressor. Hamas is murdering terrorists at its worse. Israel must crush Hamas. The US military should stay out of it and let Israel take care of the problem.

[Vlerchan]

The lack of places for Gazans to evacuate is not Israel's fault.
It's still an issue.

I realise how Hamas used the funds. I think it's awful. But the fact remains that the Palestinians having nowhere to go (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nowhere-go-gaza-civilians-urged-evacuate) is a major issue regardless of whos fault it may or may not be.

I don't know if there is any more detail Israel can really provide in it's warnings, short of broadcasting it's entire military M.O.
I believe it should just cease operations that have consistently resulted in high levels of civilian casualties.

It's no so much the warnings as what the Palestinians are supposed to do on getting the warnings that's the issue here.

---

I also agree that Hamas' use of human shields is despicable and doesn't help. But I find Israel's continued use of a policy that kill's at a roughly 4 to 1 civilians to combatants ratio (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10967279/UN-80-per-cent-of-Palestinians-killed-in-Israeli-offensive-are-civilians.html) to be just as bad.

Detain and imprison Hamas operatives indefinitely then, if we're going to throw 'genocide' around
I feel that the level of support for Hamas currently makes this something that won't be happening without a lot of collateral.

It's a solution that you admit is "impossible to implement with Israel's growing status as a pariah."

It should be noted that Isreal's bombing is only helping Hamas' cause. As noted in the AP report:

Yet residents in the targeted areas seem unwilling to blame Hamas.

Hassanain, a long-time supporter of Hamas' political rival Fatah, said he cheers on the rocket squads.

"For me, it's personal," he said. "Every rocket avenges the daily terror that my family has been living through since 2000 when they (Israeli troops) started using tanks for shelling."

"Rockets now are our last symbol of dignity."

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nowhere-go-gaza-civilians-urged-evacuate

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Genocide also doesn't necessarily entail that a group is wiped out.

Hamas' charter gives us no reason to believe a two-state solution would be effective while they maintain an operating presence.
I've addressed this elsewhere:

If a Free Palestine (or Israel) shows itself to be an aggressor then UN can just jump in.

It would be during the course of the negotiations that this would be decided as to avoid any political infighting in a hypothetical future.

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I don't believe that Hamas would give much trouble though. It's not just that it would be insane to attack Israel on gaining their state but I would also imagine that a Free Palestine would be moderated with a Hamas-Fatah unity government.

Israel is a reasonable party with a huge vested interest in keeping the West on side.
It might be in Israel's interests to keep the West on its side but it's quite clear from their actions that they don't realise that - or believe their actions are seen as justified.

Co-ordination between Israel and the Arab League to detain Hamas members should be a priority.
I'm highly sceptical as to the Arab League coordinating with Israel.

I disagree regardless because I don't feel that continuing the conflict in any form is going to help matters.

That is my proposal, not genocide.
I was making the point that genocide seems like an almost inevitable result of an attempt to wipe out Hamas.

It seems to be supported by quite a large number of Palestinians.

[Living For Love]

I have to support Israel, but I think all the recent attacks are simply needless and unjustifiable. It's true that it all started when those three Israeli teenagers disappeared, but things have simply gotten out of hand. Over 1300 Palestinians have already died due to Israeli air strikes. And then there's that story of the tunnels Hamas use to smuggle weapons into Gaza, but I think Israel could pretty much destroy them without having to bomb the entire city and avoiding all those causalities.

[rtw1997]

Hamas is the aggressor. Hamas is murdering terrorists at its worse. Israel must crush Hamas. The US military should stay out of it and let Israel take care of the problem.

I concur with this 100%. The Palestinians have proven through the years that there is no "making nice" with them. They violate ceasefires, use civilians as human shields, construct terror tunnels instead of bomb shelters, and continually provoke Israel. We need to stand back and let Israel wage this war and win it once and for all. The only way to achieve any kind of stability in the region would be to obliterate the Palestinian government and the terrorists it so shamelessly affiliates itself with.

[Southside]

I concur with this 100%. The Palestinians have proven through the years that there is no "making nice" with them. They violate ceasefires, use civilians as human shields, construct terror tunnels instead of bomb shelters, and continually provoke Israel. We need to stand back and let Israel wage this war and win it once and for all. The only way to achieve any kind of stability in the region would be to obliterate the Palestinian government and the terrorists it so shamelessly affiliates itself with.

Why obliterate the Palestinian government when they aren't doing anything wrong? Hamas is a legit political organization, only the military wing are "terrorist" as you say. T Are you aware that the Palestinian government and Hamas are separate organizations?

Not all the tunnels that go out of Gaza are "terror tunnels", especially the ones going into Egypt. Those tunnels are vital to Gaza because ISRAEL blocks a lot of goods. Prior to 2010, toilet paper and musical instruments were banned by ISRAEL from entering the Gaza Strip. Building material such as lumber and concrete are still banned from entering Gaza unless authorized it's an authorized project from the Palestinian Authority. How will the innocent people in Gaza ever rebuilding the destruction that the Israelis have caused if they cant even ship in building materials?

You cant even say Hamas is using human shields, even if Hamas was using human shield it'd still be high civilian casualties because it's so densely populated. You don't think its wrong to drop a 300 pound bomb on a house to try to kill one bad guy and end up not killing the bad guy and injuring/ killing 80 innocent people in the process? Israel is losing the propaganda war too, the rest of the world is seeing that bloodied Palestian children being rushed away in ambulances.

I think it was 56 Israelis killed so far, only two of them were civilians and the rest of them were soldiers. Its been 1000+ Palestinians killed and around 80% of them were civilians, who's the aggressor?

Who has the nuclear weapons in this situation? Who has attacked numerous countries and violated their sovereignty on multiple occasions? Who's bombing power plants that are clearly civilian infrastructure and have no connections to the Hamas network?

[Vlerchan]

... violate ceasefires ...
So do Israel.

... use civilians as human shields ...
So have Israel.

[P. 22]The use of Palestinian civilians as human shields

The Mission investigated four incidents in which the Israeli armed forces coerced Palestinian civilian men at gunpoint to take part in house searches during the military operations (chap. XIV). The men were blindfolded and handcuffed as they were forced to enter houses ahead of the Israeli soldiers. In one of the incidents, Israeli soldiers repeatedly forced a man to enter a house in which Palestinian combatants were hiding.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

It should also be noted that no evidence supports the claim that Hamas expressly use human shields.

Observers on the ground tend to say that Hamas's actions do not meet the legal definition of human shields. The BBC's Jeremy Bowen recently wrote (http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaza-notebook-i-saw-no-evidence-hamas-using-palestinians-human), "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields." The New York Times' Anne Barnard and Jodi Rudoren wrote (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/world/middleeast/israel-says-hamas-is-using-civilians-as-shields-in-gaza.html?_r=0), "There is no evidence that Hamas and other militants force civilians to stay in areas that are under attack — the legal definition of a human shield under international law."

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/30/5937119/palestinian-civilian-casualties-gaza-israel

It's clear though that they are somewhat culpable for the deaths.

What can be proven is that Hamas makes tactical choices, particularly firing from dense civilian areas, that increase the odds that Palestinian civilians will be killed. Hamas could save lives by firing rockets from less crowded areas of Gaza City or storing those rockets in a building that is not a school. But it doesn't. Even if this is "only" coldblooded indifference, which is the most generous possible reading, this is surely a form of culpability.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/30/5937119/palestinian-civilian-casualties-gaza-israel

I'd suggest that people read the rest of the article I'm quoting from: the bits about Israel's policy whilst irrelevant to the point I'm making here are interesting nonetheless.

... construct terror tunnels instead of bomb shelters ...
I agree this is bad.

... continually provoke Israel ...
But we agree that Israel re the aggressors this time?

It seems to have been the conclusion we reached when we broke off our last exchange.

[Babs]

Even if Hamas "started it", I just can't support Israel after they take it out on the Palestine citizens. That's just it.

[rtw1997]

Even if Hamas "started it", I just can't support Israel after they take it out on the Palestine citizens. That's just it.

Well, as unfortunate as it is, that's a reality of war. And it's not like Palestine is doing anything to protect its citizens anyway.

[Vlerchan]

Even if Hamas "started it", I just can't support Israel after they take it out on the Palestine citizens.
Hamas didn't start it.

I agree though that even if they did the Isreali actions during the conflict have been utterly deplorable.

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And it's not like Palestine is doing anything to protect its citizens anyway.
What do you believe that the Palestinians should be doing to protect themselves?

[Babs]

Hamas didn't start it.

I don't necessarily believe they did, I'm just saying because it's been implied by others, hence why I put it in quotes.

[Southside]

Well, as unfortunate as it is, that's a reality of war. And it's not like Palestine is doing anything to protect its citizens anyway.

How can Palestine protect its citizens when the Israeli blocks building materials that might be used to build bomb shelters from coming into Palestine?

Everytime Israel conducts "precision airstrikes" over Gaza and kills 10 kids that breeds more anger, honestly, if a foreign army invaded your hometown and killed one of your young relatives you wouldn't want to fight back?

Now I agree the rocket attacks and "terror tunnels" are wrong but I don't see anything wrong with the militas in Gaza fighting back the invasion, its Palestinian territory.

[Babs]

And it's not like Palestine is doing anything to protect its citizens anyway.

Do you have any ideas on how they should go about doing so?
You can find a million ways to turn it around on Palestine, that doesn't change the fact that Israelis are killing Palestine citizens simply for being Palestinian.

[kayvan]

This war will only harm the people of Israel and the Palestinian people. A large number of people are being killed every day, and people on both sides of the war on their homes, fear of falling bombs.

[Exocet]

A great idea to stop this conflict !

https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10347399_1450453515223545_6004072499860008950_n.jpg?oh=f845fd25c6742ed596ba25c36 17e6554&oe=543BAA24

[kayvan]

I think this is a great idea foxy4 :D ;) and show the hospitality is American.:)

[Harry Smith]

It's ironic that the US takes such pride in overthrowing a regime (British Empire) but seems so happy to support Israel. Everyone seems to think you can just call Hamas terrorists and that somehow justifies mass murder of 1000 civilians

[Sir Suomi]

It's ironic that the US takes such pride in overthrowing a regime (British Empire) but seems so happy to support Israel. Everyone seems to think you can just call Hamas terrorists and that somehow justifies mass murder of 1000 civilians

Well to be fair the U.K were the ones who kind of gave them the land, while America offered the a spot in the Nebraska Panhandle...

[Harry Smith]

Well to be fair the U.K were the ones who kind of gave them the land, while America offered the a spot in the Nebraska Panhandle...

We gave them the land on this basis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

[tovaris]

the international comunety should sanction israel for its war crimes.

A great idea to stop this conflict !

image (https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10347399_1450453515223545_6004072499860008950_n.jpg?oh=f845fd25c6742ed596ba25c36 17e6554&oe=543BAA24)
i agre conpletly

[Gamma Male]

A great idea to stop this conflict !

image (https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10347399_1450453515223545_6004072499860008950_n.jpg?oh=f845fd25c6742ed596ba25c36 17e6554&oe=543BAA24)

What an excellent idea! :P

[Left Now]

A great idea to stop this conflict !

image (https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10347399_1450453515223545_6004072499860008950_n.jpg?oh=f845fd25c6742ed596ba25c36 17e6554&oe=543BAA24)

If it were possible,many of the Middle East's problem could be solved;including a great part of Iran-United States diplomatic problems.

[micheal951]

I personally believe we should all just keep our noses out of other countries business. I know what is going on over there is wrong, but why should other countries get involved....Again.
Every time another country has problems, everyone else seems to think they need to jump in and wage war with who they believe is in the "wrong".
And I am personally getting fed up with my country being dragged into war that has nothing to do with us.