Guantanamo Bay

[Harry Smith]

Does anybody still support this lovely example of the US justice System?

[Gamma Male]

Do I really need to answer this? :lol:


fuuuuccckkkk nooooooo

[Stronk Serb]

No. Screw US justice. That ain't justice.

[Left Now]

Guantanamo = Gu (Shit in Farsi) + an (Once again Shit in Farsi) + tan (Body in Farsi) + Amo (Uncle in Farsi) ---------> At the end I can say that Guantanamo in Farsi has some kinda meaning like "The Body Shit of Uncle(Sam)".Nobody likes the shit which comes out of a body,so...SHUT THAT HECKING PRISON UNCLE SAM!

[Harry Smith]

part of me died when I saw someone voted in favour of it

[Mynick]

Hell no

[Blood]

part of me died when I saw someone voted in favour of it

Conservative Christians usually vote in favor of it. surprise surprise

And to answer the original question: no, I'm not in favor of it.

[StoppingTime]

Guantanamo = Gu (Shit in Farsi) + an (Once again Shit in Farsi) + tan (Body in Farsi) + Amo (Uncle in Farsi) ---------> At the end I can say that Guantanamo in Farsi has some kinda meaning like "The Body Shit of Uncle(Sam)".Nobody likes the shit which comes out of a body,so...SHUT THAT HECKING PRISON UNCLE SAM!

...Not sure how this has any relation to the question, but anyway.

No, I don't support it being open given its atrocious reputation. The US preaches justice and democracy, and yet...we still have Gitmo.

[Kurgg]

Do they still have justice?

[Living For Love]

It's a prison like any other.

[Vlerchan]

It's a prison like any other.
It's a concentration camp.

[Harry Smith]

It's a prison like any other.

Lol trolling much?

In most prisons torture does not occur, in most prisons the people have been convinced of a crime and in most prisons international and domestic laws apply.

Saying it's a prison is like saying Auschwitz is a holiday home

[Living For Love]

Lol trolling much?

In most prisons torture does not occur, in most prisons the people have been convinced of a crime and in most prisons international and domestic laws apply.

Saying it's a prison is like saying Auschwitz is a holiday home

So that's what's wrong with Guantanamo, not the existence of the prison itself. If you want to change it, the solution is to make sure those domestic laws apply and the acts of torture stop, not closing the prison.

[Harry Smith]

So that's what's wrong with Guantanamo, not the existence of the prison itself. If you want to change it, the solution is to make sure those domestic laws apply and the acts of torture stop, not closing the prison.

No-the prison itself is a violation of international law. There's a reason that it's in Cuba (so that US laws don't occur)

It's an illegally ran prisoner of war camp, the fighters inside are prisoners of war and should be given the correct treatment. If the US wants to keep them domestically then they should give them a trial and imprison them on the mainland.

It's a prison like any other.

You didn't actually respond to this comment you made, could you give me a list of how it's like a regular prision

[Living For Love]

No-the prison itself is a violation of international law. There's a reason that it's in Cuba (so that US laws don't occur)

It's an illegally ran prisoner of war camp, the fighters inside are prisoners of war and should be given the correct treatment. If the US wants to keep them domestically then they should give them a trial and imprison them on the mainland.
Well, yeah, I don't agree the fact it's located in Cuba, because why would Cuba had to have the responsibility of having all those prisoners on their territory? I wonder what you mean by "correct treatment".

You didn't actually respond to this comment you made, could you give me a list of how it's like a regular prision
Because it's operated by the USA.

[Harry Smith]

Well, yeah, I don't agree the fact it's located in Cuba, because why would Cuba had to have the responsibility of having all those prisoners on their territory? I wonder what you mean by "correct treatment".


Because it's operated by the USA.

It's operated by the US, it's ironic that we condemn Cuba for human rights abuses when in fact we run a prison camp on Cuba which tortures and treats POW's like Cattle

Correct POW laws should apply, even the Supreme Court has ruled that they should have this right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdan_v._Rumsfeld#Stevens.27_opinion_for_the_Court

Treated humanely with respect for their persons and their honor
Able to inform their next of kin and the International Committee of the Red Cross of their capture
Allowed to communicate regularly with relatives and receive packages
Given adequate food, clothing, housing, and medical attention
Paid for work done and not forced to do work that is dangerous, unhealthy, or degrading
Released quickly after conflicts end
Not compelled to give any information except for name, age, rank, and service number




Because it's operated by the USA.

So you're saying that because the USA runs it then it must be legal and perfect?

[Living For Love]

It's operated by the US, it's ironic that we condemn Cuba for human rights abuses when in fact we run a prison camp on Cuba which tortures and treats POW's like Cattle

Correct POW laws should apply, even the Supreme Court has ruled that they should have this right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdan_v._Rumsfeld#Stevens.27_opinion_for_the_Court
I don't know about you, but it makes me a bit uncomfortable seeing some of those POW having better life conditions that some honest and hard-working American citizens. Now, I don't generally support torture, but a prison isn't supposed to be a pleasant place to live, I hope you realise that.

So you're saying that because the USA runs it then it must be legal and perfect?
Nope, because not every prison facility in the USA territory is legal and perfect.

[UnknownError]

Now, I don't generally support torture, but a prison isn't supposed to be a pleasant place to live, I hope you realise that.

wtf is wrong with you? Yes they aren't supposed to be a nice little holiday but they should still be treated with the rights that human beings deserve to have. From wikipedia:

"Medical professionals were ordered to ignore ethical standards during involvement in abusive interrogation, including monitoring of vital signs under stress-inducing procedures."

"Red Cross inspectors and released detainees have alleged acts of torture including sleep deprivation, beatings and locking in confined and cold cells."

"In 2005, it was reported that sexual methods were allegedly used by female interrogators to break Muslim prisoners"

"During his Guantánamo interrogations, he was given 3 1/2 bags IV fluid, then he was forbidden to use the toilet, forcing him to soil himself."

"He is forced to bark like a dog and his beard and hair are shaved. He is stripped nude. Fake menstrual blood is smeared at him and he is forced to wear a women's bra."

All of that isn't making somewhere "an unpleasant place to live". That's not maybe a dirty toilet and cold shower water. That's straight up disgusting and inhumane.

[Living For Love]

wtf is wrong with you? Yes they aren't supposed to be a nice little holiday but they should still be treated with the rights that human beings deserve to have. From wikipedia:

"Medical professionals were ordered to ignore ethical standards during involvement in abusive interrogation, including monitoring of vital signs under stress-inducing procedures."

"Red Cross inspectors and released detainees have alleged acts of torture including sleep deprivation, beatings and locking in confined and cold cells."

"In 2005, it was reported that sexual methods were allegedly used by female interrogators to break Muslim prisoners"

"During his Guantánamo interrogations, he was given 3 1/2 bags IV fluid, then he was forbidden to use the toilet, forcing him to soil himself."

"He is forced to bark like a dog and his beard and hair are shaved. He is stripped nude. Fake menstrual blood is smeared at him and he is forced to wear a women's bra."

All of that isn't making somewhere "an unpleasant place to live". That's not maybe a dirty toilet and cold shower water. That's straight up disgusting and inhumane.

I don't remember saying I supported the fact that those prisoners live in inhuman conditions. A prison is somewhere you enter as a criminal and get out as a "normal" citizen after having gone through a process of rehabilitation, or at least that's how it should be. There's no need to force those people to live under inhuman conditions, but there's also no need to spend loads of public funds on their well-being if a prison's primary function is to make criminals realise the wrongfulness of their actions.

[Harry Smith]

wtf is wrong with you? Yes they aren't supposed to be a nice little holiday but they should still be treated with the rights that human beings deserve to have. From wikipedia:

"Medical professionals were ordered to ignore ethical standards during involvement in abusive interrogation, including monitoring of vital signs under stress-inducing procedures."

"Red Cross inspectors and released detainees have alleged acts of torture including sleep deprivation, beatings and locking in confined and cold cells."

"In 2005, it was reported that sexual methods were allegedly used by female interrogators to break Muslim prisoners"

"During his Guantánamo interrogations, he was given 3 1/2 bags IV fluid, then he was forbidden to use the toilet, forcing him to soil himself."

"He is forced to bark like a dog and his beard and hair are shaved. He is stripped nude. Fake menstrual blood is smeared at him and he is forced to wear a women's bra."

All of that isn't making somewhere "an unpleasant place to live". That's not maybe a dirty toilet and cold shower water. That's straight up disgusting and inhumane.

I'm stealing this response as my response +1, wish we could rep

. A prison is somewhere you enter as a criminal and get out as a "normal" citizen after having gone through a process of rehabilitation, or at least that's how it should be.

Lol to go Prision you need to be convincted of a crime-the people held at GITMO haven't been charged in a court of law.

I'll put it blunty-you're slow if you think that GITMO is a normal prison. Only 6 people have been convicted out of 700 prisoners, and those cases were carried out in dubious conditions

Everyone in the world has a right to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus

I don't remember saying I supported the fact that those prisoners live in inhuman conditions. .

You've already implied that you support torture

but it makes me a bit uncomfortable seeing some of those POW having better life conditions that some honest and hard-working American citizens

It's make uncomfortable seeing someone endorse torture. Do you know how stupid you sound? If you want POW's to live in terrible conditions then you should write to your MP/Congressman whatever and ask them to withdraw Portugal from the 1948 Geneva convention.

As someone who's had family members live in POW camp I know that it's the one once of progress we've had in society, the fact that prisoners of war (who've committed no crime) are treated with dignity and respect. If a British Soldier was captured by anther country (as was in 1982) I'd expect that country to treat him fairly with medical treatment and allow him his basic human rights. We should respect international laws because there will be a day when it's the one thing keeping our soldiers alive.

better life conditions that some honest and hard-working American citizens

That's bullshit, please provide evidence that POW's under the third article of the hague convention get better treatment than US citizens. You'll be hard pressed, the average US citizen would have their constitutional rights and a whole network of support that isn't available for any prisoners of war/GITMO prisoners

[Living For Love]

Lol to go Prision you need to be convincted of a crime-the people held at GITMO haven't been charged in a court of law.

I'll put it blunty-you're slow if you think that GITMO is a normal prison.

Everyone in the world has a right to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus
They're prisoners of war. That's enough to jail them. And most of them end up being transferred to facilities in their home countries.

[Cygnus]

I heard Guantanamo
9QO4aegj-jA

Anyways, back on subject. Guantanamo is kind of also kept because of US convenience. Sort of like telling Cuba that if they want Guantanamo back they'll have to declare war, even though Cuba is not a threat at all but they sure would like to take it over.

[Harry Smith]

They're prisoners of war. That's enough to jail them. And most of them end up being transferred to facilities in their home countries.

Your missing the point. The US can't have it both ways.

If they are POW's then they need to be treated in accordance to the law (which they are not)

If they aren't POW's, then they need to be convicted of a crime.

At the moment it's some sort of legal limbo where they end up getting tortured, abused and denied fundamental rights

[Nomad_X]

It's a prison like any other.

Well Actually The prison is only a small portion of "Gitmo"

Gitmo is a United States Navy Base. The USA would never close the base. The prison area where the "unlawful combatants" are held is what most people think is there only.

[thatcountrykid]

Of course I'm for it.

[Harry Smith]

Of course I'm for it.

Do you think that Nelson Mandela should of been imprisoned for 25 years?

[thatcountrykid]

Do you think that Nelson Mandela should of been imprisoned for 25 years?

i never really cared enough to learn about mandela and whay he did so i can say. was he in guantanamo?

[Vlerchan]

Of course I'm for it.
Why?

[thatcountrykid]

Why?

because its a military prison for enemies of the us

[Vlerchan]

because its a military prison for enemies of the us
I understand what it is.

I'm asking why you still back this military prison in particular considering the large amounts of controversy surrounding it.

[thatcountrykid]

I understand what it is.

I'm asking why you still back this military prison in particular considering the large amounts of controversy surrounding it.

because it is a useful prison.

[Vlerchan]

because it is a useful prison.
Do you believe that it would be any less useful without the human rights violations and torture?

If so, please explain.

[Harry Smith]

i never really cared enough to learn about mandela and whay he did so i can say. was he in guantanamo?

No. Nelson Mandela wasn't in Guantanamo. I'll try to rephrase it in another way

In WW2 do you think Germany had a right to put US soldiers into concentration camps?

[thatcountrykid]

Do you believe that it would be any less useful without the human rights violations and torture?

If so, please explain.

I think torturing of prisoners does bring useful information. We are dealing with radicals. They won't just tell if we ask em nice. That's not how war works.

No. Nelson Mandela wasn't in Guantanamo. I'll try to rephrase it in another way

In WW2 do you think Germany had a right to put US soldiers into concentration camps?

They were in prison camps and yes they do have the right. We did te same thing to German soldiers. I don't like it but yes they can do it.

[Harry Smith]

I think torturing of prisoners does bring useful information. We are dealing with radicals. They won't just tell if we ask em nice. That's not how war works.

It's against the constitution to torture prisoners

[thatcountrykid]

It's against the constitution to torture prisoners

What article and section is that said?

[Vlerchan]

I think torturing of prisoners does bring useful information.
It is a notoriously inefficient means of gathering information.

A recent congressional inquiry into the use of torture post-9/11 agrees. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/report-finds-harsh-cia-interrogations-ineffective/2012/12/13/a9da510a-455b-11e2-9648-a2c323a991d6_story.html)

[thatcountrykid]

It is a notoriously inefficient means of gathering information.

A recent congressional inquiry into the use of torture post-9/11 agrees. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/report-finds-harsh-cia-interrogations-ineffective/2012/12/13/a9da510a-455b-11e2-9648-a2c323a991d6_story.html)

ok so congress issued a report that no one has seen yet. thats not evidence.

[Harry Smith]

What article and section is that said?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The U.S. Supreme Court has held since at least the 1890s that punishments that involved torture are forbidden under the Eighth Amendment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdan_v._Rumsfeld

[thatcountrykid]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdan_v._Rumsfeld

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishment inflicted.

torture isnt punishment. its interrogation.

[Harry Smith]

torture isnt punishment. its interrogation.

The Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you.

When Afghani prisoners are getting raped in GITMO is that interrogation?

[thatcountrykid]

The Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you.

When Afghani prisoners are getting raped in GITMO is that interrogation?

can you show evidence of the alleged rape other than a left wing site. a non biased new site is preffered.

[Harry Smith]

can you show evidence of the alleged rape other than a left wing site. a non biased new site is preffered.

I'll give the evidence if you address the claim about the Supreme Court. Every single US law shows that torture is illegal but you seem to ignore that.

I'll get a nice right wing source for you
Major General Antonio Taguba has stated that there is photographic evidence of rape being carried out at Abu Ghraib. Another photo shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner.[15] Other photos show interrogators sexually assaulting prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube, and a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.[15] Taguba has supported President Obama's decision not to release the photos, stating, "These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency."

http://harpers.org/blog/2009/02/a-former-gitmo-guard-tells-it-all/

http://thejusticecampaign.org/?page_id=273

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/americas/2013/07/2013747722225294.html

http://morallowground.com/2011/04/27/study-pentagon-doctors-ignored-cocealed-evidence-of-torture-rape-of-guantanamo-detainees/

http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2013/07/96664/moroccan-guantanamo-inmate-accuses-military-of-rape/

[thatcountrykid]

I'll give the evidence if you address the claim about the Supreme Court. Every single US law shows that torture is illegal but you seem to ignore that.

I'll get a nice right wing source for you


http://harpers.org/blog/2009/02/a-former-gitmo-guard-tells-it-all/

http://thejusticecampaign.org/?page_id=273

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/americas/2013/07/2013747722225294.html

http://morallowground.com/2011/04/27/study-pentagon-doctors-ignored-cocealed-evidence-of-torture-rape-of-guantanamo-detainees/

http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2013/07/96664/moroccan-guantanamo-inmate-accuses-military-of-rape/

if the photos are no release you cannot count them as evidence. im supposed to take the word of politicians? thatll be the day.

the 8th ammedment says cruel and unusual PUNISHMENT. not torture.

[Harry Smith]

if the photos are no release you cannot count them as evidence. im supposed to take the word of politicians? thatll be the day.

the 8th ammedment says cruel and unusual PUNISHMENT. not torture.

You don't need photo's to prove a rape case-any lawyer will tell you that. If you want to ignore that source I've given 5 different examples-did you see them?

And yes Torture is punishment, you're punishing someone for in your words 'being an enemy'. It's also illegal in the US

The United States has always prohibited the use of torture in our Constitution, laws executive statements and judicial decisions. We have ratified three treaties that all outlaw torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. When the United States ratifies a treaty, it becomes part of the Supreme Law of the Land under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution.

The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, says, "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification for torture.

[rtw1997]

Not sure why we're so concerned about Guantanamo. We're justifiably punishing the savages who set out to slaughter Americans. Terrorists don't have "rights" like ordinary U.S. citizens do--I fully support Guantanamo remaining open and torturing the terrorists who are there.

[Harry Smith]

Terrorists don't have "rights" like ordinary U.S. citizens do--I fully support Guantanamo remaining open and torturing the terrorists who are there.

Oh boy. Do you think Nelson Mandela is a terrorist?

[Gamma Male]

Not sure why we're so concerned about Guantanamo. We're justifiably punishing the savages who set out to slaughter Americans. Terrorists don't have "rights" like ordinary U.S. citizens do--I fully support Guantanamo remaining open and torturing the terrorists who are there.

Even when this is in clear violation of the constitution?

Also, what about the ones who aren't terrorists?
http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_05_18/90-of-Guantanamo-prisoners-are-innocent-people-sold-to-US-Gov-former-detainee/
http://www.reprieve.org.uk/publiceducation/2012_08_30_Public_Education_Innocents_Guantanamo/
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/04/former-state-department-official-team-bush-knew-many-at-gitmo-were-innocent/275327/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550

This is what happens when you throw the 6th amendment out the window.

[Vlerchan]

thats not evidence.
You will have to explain how it not being released yet for you to read personally makes it any less a piece of evidence. I'd still consider the report back from the individuals who conducted the inquiry to be a piece of evidence in itself. Unless you think they're lying.

The summary should be declassified soon anyway.

---

Testimony:

Ali Soufan, a former FBI special agent with considerable experience interrogating al-Qaeda operatives, pointed out in Time that:

"When they are in pain, people will say anything to get the pain to stop. Most of the time, they will lie, make up anything to make you stop hurting them. That means the information you're getting is useless."

He isn't alone in this assessment – a number of former intelligence people have expressed similar views, and his words are echoed by the US Army Training Manual's section on interrogation, which suggests that:

"…the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

http://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/04/2

SCIENCE!:

Moreover, Zimbardo told LiveScience that torture is not an effective way to gather intelligence. Compared with police settings, in which detectives build social rapport and often get confessions without physical force, secret interrogation squads can alienate prisoners and elicit unreliable information, he said.

http://www.livescience.com/9209-study-torture-techniques-unethical-ineffective.html

More SCIENCE!:

Scientists do not pretend to know, in any individual case, whether torture might extract useful information. But as neurobiologist Shane O'Mara of the Trinity College Institute of Neuroscience in Dublin explains in a paper in the journal Trends in Cognitive Science called "Torturing the Brain," "the use of such techniques appears motivated by a folk psychology that is demonstrably incorrect. Solid scientific evidence on how repeated and extreme stress and pain affect memory and executive functions (such as planning or forming intentions) suggests these techniques are unlikely to do anything other than the opposite of that intended by coercive or 'enhanced' interrogation."

http://www.newsweek.com/neurosciencetorture-doesnt-work-and-heres-why-79365

We're justifiably punishing the savages who set out to slaughter Americans.
What if I told you that a number were wrongly imprisoned?

Eg:

Even after being cleared of any wrongdoing, five innocent men were kept captive at the detention center at Guantanamo. Today, these men who started out in China and ended up in Cuba are now free and in the Eastern European country of Albania, the only country that would take them. They spoke to the ABC News Law & Justice Unit in their first American interview.

interview.http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=1997083

I'm sorry for the major necro and double post but I've been literally waiting months to do this and I'm not bothered starting a new thread:

ok so congress issued a report that no one has seen yet. thats not evidence. thats not evidence.

Senate Report on Terror - PDF (http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf)

http://www.motherjones.com/files/blog_torture_report_key_findings.jpg

In plain English: The torture was far more brutal than we thought, and the CIA lied about that. It didn't work, and they lied about that too. It produced so much bad intel that it most likely impaired our national security, and of course they lied about that as well. They lied to Congress, they lied to the president, and they lied to the media. Despite this, they are still defending their actions.

The rest of the report is just 600 pages of supporting evidence. But the core narrative that describes a barbarous, calculated, and sustained corruption of both our national values and our most fundamental moral principles is simple. We tortured prisoners, and then we lied about it. That's it.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/12/senate-report-we-tortured-prisoners-it-didnt-work-and-we-lied-about-it

Have fun.

[DeadEyes]

Obama did try to shut it down (as it should be).

[Emerald Dream]

This thread was bumped :)

:locked: