Israel Palestine Conflict

[TheBigUnit]

What are your views and is israel justified for their invasion?

[Gamma Male]

Israel was a mistake from the start.

[Harry Smith]

What did the Israelis (ones who returned from Germany joined irgun etc)' do when they were trapped in the Warsaw Ghetto? What did the Israelis' do to British soldiers in 1948? They bombed the shit out them. Israel can't criticize Hamas for using violence when the Israeli state was born out of blood of British Troops. I don't support Hamas or there tactics but I can understand why they feel that they've got no choice-see below about Israeli crimes in the region

I'm not saying that Israelis' had no right to do that in 1948 but it has to cut both ways. Do you support Israels' use of terror in the 1940s?


The King David Hotel bombing was an attack carried out on Monday July 22, 1946 by the militant right-wing Zionist underground organization, the Irgun, on the British administrative headquarters for Palestine, which was housed in the southern wing[1] of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem

The Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party.[9] Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977.

Almost all international law shows that Israel have committed war crimes but you don't care about international law. Ignoring the physical question about Hamas you can't punish a population for the actions of one group. When Britain was getting bombed by the IRA in the 1970's we didn't launch air attacks on Belfast, lockdown the city and cut off resources like Water and medicine (we weren't perfect though), when Cuba faced terrorist attacks on it's airlines, fields, factories and ports they didn't invade Guantanamo bay. Despite what G.W Bush says you don't respond to terrorism by blowing up entire cities.

60 years ago we called the Israeli's terrorists for killing British troops in Palenstine-now our leaders welcome them
40 years ago we called Nelson Mandela a terrorist for launching attacks against South Africa-we all mourned him greatly when he died
30 years ago we called the IRA a bunch of republican terrorists who should be destroyed-now they're part of a Stable unified Northern Ireland

There seems to be a pattern of embracing people we've seen as terrorists, and seeing the regimes they fought against (British Empire. Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa) as regimes that had needed to be stopped

I would be more sympathetic to your argument if this was the first time it's happened but it's not. So far Israel have
-Cut of key supplies such as Water which are a human right
-Detained children in Military Style jails without a lawyer present
-Imprisoned elected members of parliament without charge for up to 12 months
-In Both 1956 and 1967 launched a war of aggression which is deemed a war crime by the Nuremberg Trial
-Demolished houses of people who had extremely weak links to Hamas, directly breaking international law
-Building something that is no different to the Berlin Wall-Neocons love to wank over that as being the evil socialist barrier but when Israel does it who cares
-Build on occupied land which is also a war crime

One thing the UN is good at is documentating war crimes, they know there legal cases and they often present a fair case (their problem is implementing punishment) look what they said


UN agencies, local and international human rights groups and others have documented a pattern of war crimes and other serious violations of international law – both international humanitarian law and international human rights law – committed by Israeli military and security forces since they occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip in 1967.

UN agencies, local and international human rights groups and others have documented a pattern of war crimes and other serious violations of international law – both international humanitarian law and international human rights law – committed by Israeli military and security forces since they occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip in 1967.

How would you feel if Cuba said to Florida-you've been launching terrorist attacks since 1960 against the sovereign state of Cuba we're going to bomb you-would anybody support Cuba bombing Florida?

Israel treatment of Palestinian civilians is no different to Nazi treatment of Jews and others in the Warsaw Ghetto (luckily Israel haven't reached the final solution stage yet).

Israel foreign policy is built upon the blood and to quote the evil Russians ' You can build a throne with bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long.''

To end on a quote look what the leader of the Free world said this week '' there's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders'' Obama is a massive hypocrite considering he's bombed about 6 countries in the last 6 years of office. The US quite rightly celebrated a couple of weeks ago the fact that they overthrew a tyrannical government that massacred civilians, denied political rights and used a military to crush dissident.

TL;DR: Israel are on a dangerous path towards international isolationism, I'd be happy to expand on how peace can be brought to the region ensuring both a Jewish and Palestinian state. I expect to be thoroughly attacked for this post

[Cpt_Cutter]

I've made my opinion clear on this. Hamas are just about the worst thing that could be in power anywhere, let alone the nations bordering Israel.
I'm in support of both Israel and the current situation, but I feel sorry for the poor Palestinians caught up in it.

That being said, Hamas are very obviously playing the world for support, and it seems to be working.

*Clarification* by current situation I mean them bombing the launchers shooting at them.

[HUSTLEMAN]

What are your views and is israel justified for their invasion?

For one, they need to stop fighting, its been over thousands of years. They need to stop. You guys share the same land as your official holy land. DEAL WITH IT! For once, live in the peace your gods wanted all of his/her people to have.
Secondly, what is this current conflict about anyways? I haven't been paying attention to the news lately.

[Camazotz]

What did the Israelis (ones who returned from Germany joined irgun etc)' do when they were trapped in the Warsaw Ghetto? What did the Israelis' do to British soldiers in 1948? They bombed the shit out them. Israel can't criticize Hamas for using violence when the Israeli state was born out of blood of British Troops. I don't support Hamas or there tactics but I can understand why they feel that they've got no choice-see below about Israeli crimes in the region

I'm not saying that Israelis' had no right to do that in 1948 but it has to cut both ways. Do you support Israels' use of terror in the 1940s?

Almost all international law shows that Israel have committed war crimes but you don't care about international law. Ignoring the physical question about Hamas you can't punish a population for the actions of one group. When Britain was getting bombed by the IRA in the 1970's we didn't launch air attacks on Belfast, lockdown the city and cut off resources like Water and medicine (we weren't perfect though), when Cuba faced terrorist attacks on it's airlines, fields, factories and ports they didn't invade Guantanamo bay. Despite what G.W Bush says you don't respond to terrorism by blowing up entire cities.

60 years ago we called the Israeli's terrorists for killing British troops in Palenstine-now our leaders welcome them
40 years ago we called Nelson Mandela a terrorist for launching attacks against South Africa-we all mourned him greatly when he died
30 years ago we called the IRA a bunch of republican terrorists who should be destroyed-now they're part of a Stable unified Northern Ireland

There seems to be a pattern of embracing people we've seen as terrorists, and seeing the regimes they fought against (British Empire. Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa) as regimes that had needed to be stopped

I would be more sympathetic to your argument if this was the first time it's happened but it's not. So far Israel have
-Cut of key supplies such as Water which are a human right
-Detained children in Military Style jails without a lawyer present
-Imprisoned elected members of parliament without charge for up to 12 months
-In Both 1956 and 1967 launched a war of aggression which is deemed a war crime by the Nuremberg Trial
-Demolished houses of people who had extremely weak links to Hamas, directly breaking international law
-Building something that is no different to the Berlin Wall-Neocons love to wank over that as being the evil socialist barrier but when Israel does it who cares
-Build on occupied land which is also a war crime

One thing the UN is good at is documentating war crimes, they know there legal cases and they often present a fair case (their problem is implementing punishment) look what they said

How would you feel if Cuba said to Florida-you've been launching terrorist attacks since 1960 against the sovereign state of Cuba we're going to bomb you-would anybody support Cuba bombing Florida?

Israel treatment of Palestinian civilians is no different to Nazi treatment of Jews and others in the Warsaw Ghetto (luckily Israel haven't reached the final solution stage yet).

Israel foreign policy is built upon the blood and to quote the evil Russians ' You can build a throne with bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long.''

To end on a quote look what the leader of the Free world said this week '' there's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders'' Obama is a massive hypocrite considering he's bombed about 6 countries in the last 6 years of office. The US quite rightly celebrated a couple of weeks ago the fact that they overthrew a tyrannical government that massacred civilians, denied political rights and used a military to crush dissident.

TL;DR: Israel are on a dangerous path towards international isolationism, I'd be happy to expand on how peace can be brought to the region ensuring both a Jewish and Palestinian state. I expect to be thoroughly attacked for this post

I'll admit that I don't know much on this topic, but from what I've found, I'm inclined to agree with just about everything you said. And I would very much like to hear how the conflict can be resolved.

[Jean Poutine]

What did the Israelis (ones who returned from Germany joined irgun etc)' do when they were trapped in the Warsaw Ghetto? What did the Israelis' do to British soldiers in 1948? They bombed the shit out them. Israel can't criticize Hamas for using violence when the Israeli state was born out of blood of British Troops. I don't support Hamas or there tactics but I can understand why they feel that they've got no choice-see below about Israeli crimes in the region

I'm not saying that Israelis' had no right to do that in 1948 but it has to cut both ways. Do you support Israels' use of terror in the 1940s?




Almost all international law shows that Israel have committed war crimes but you don't care about international law. Ignoring the physical question about Hamas you can't punish a population for the actions of one group. When Britain was getting bombed by the IRA in the 1970's we didn't launch air attacks on Belfast, lockdown the city and cut off resources like Water and medicine (we weren't perfect though), when Cuba faced terrorist attacks on it's airlines, fields, factories and ports they didn't invade Guantanamo bay. Despite what G.W Bush says you don't respond to terrorism by blowing up entire cities.

60 years ago we called the Israeli's terrorists for killing British troops in Palenstine-now our leaders welcome them
40 years ago we called Nelson Mandela a terrorist for launching attacks against South Africa-we all mourned him greatly when he died
30 years ago we called the IRA a bunch of republican terrorists who should be destroyed-now they're part of a Stable unified Northern Ireland

There seems to be a pattern of embracing people we've seen as terrorists, and seeing the regimes they fought against (British Empire. Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa) as regimes that had needed to be stopped

I would be more sympathetic to your argument if this was the first time it's happened but it's not. So far Israel have
-Cut of key supplies such as Water which are a human right
-Detained children in Military Style jails without a lawyer present
-Imprisoned elected members of parliament without charge for up to 12 months
-In Both 1956 and 1967 launched a war of aggression which is deemed a war crime by the Nuremberg Trial
-Demolished houses of people who had extremely weak links to Hamas, directly breaking international law
-Building something that is no different to the Berlin Wall-Neocons love to wank over that as being the evil socialist barrier but when Israel does it who cares
-Build on occupied land which is also a war crime

One thing the UN is good at is documentating war crimes, they know there legal cases and they often present a fair case (their problem is implementing punishment) look what they said




How would you feel if Cuba said to Florida-you've been launching terrorist attacks since 1960 against the sovereign state of Cuba we're going to bomb you-would anybody support Cuba bombing Florida?

Israel treatment of Palestinian civilians is no different to Nazi treatment of Jews and others in the Warsaw Ghetto (luckily Israel haven't reached the final solution stage yet).

Israel foreign policy is built upon the blood and to quote the evil Russians ' You can build a throne with bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long.''

To end on a quote look what the leader of the Free world said this week '' there's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders'' Obama is a massive hypocrite considering he's bombed about 6 countries in the last 6 years of office. The US quite rightly celebrated a couple of weeks ago the fact that they overthrew a tyrannical government that massacred civilians, denied political rights and used a military to crush dissident.

TL;DR: Israel are on a dangerous path towards international isolationism, I'd be happy to expand on how peace can be brought to the region ensuring both a Jewish and Palestinian state. I expect to be thoroughly attacked for this post

Pretty much this post.

The UN lacks any teeth and even if it had any coercive powers the US would pretty much veto any sanctions against Israel. This is why I think international law doesn't really exist : law must be enforced by a single, authoritative body with enough force to impose its rules on member states and dole out punishment to recalcitrant states. As it is right now some people will tell you countermeasures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countermeasure_(law)) are international law's coercive powers but all countermeasures really do is equalize the field and they are also optional. It's like saying to my landlord I'm going to cut 25$ from my rent because he hasn't fixed my door yet. It's not a sanction, it's simply making things equitable again. He failed to meet an obligation, so I fail to meet one too.

So instead of international law, we have feel-good treaties every country routinely breaks and spits on, with no teeth behind them and a security council playing favourites. I think Israel is the perfect example of why the UN needs to change. It mostly needs to stop fondling itself while half the world's countries ignore it. It's too bad that member states control the UN, so it has as much funding and powers as they deign to give to it. I think its high time the UN sends some blue-hatted fuckers into Palestine and keep the rabid Israeli dogs off the Palestinians' dicks.

Also, can America and Canada please stop bankrolling Israel while it's running around Palestine committing war crimes? Israel is a big boy, it has a first world economy, it can play "what's the worst thing I can get away with" alone. The West certainly doesn't need being complicit to the segregation of an entire people.

[StoppingTime]

I responded to this post elsewhere, so I'm going to respond in a shorter manor here


-Cut of key supplies such as Water which are a human right

Israel, according to this (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.605139) source (which has been known to be quite critical of some of Israel's decisions despite being an Israeli newspaper), Israel is only required to not interfere with water distribution brought in by a neutral third party. They have no obligation to supply water (or electricity) to Gaza, but they do anyway.
Granted, cutting off the water supply to a town that is so dependent on it, in my opinion, cannot simply be an act of "targeting Hamas" and it should be looked into...but that's unlikely to happen.


-Detained children in Military Style jails without a lawyer present
-Imprisoned elected members of parliament without charge for up to 12 months

can you...source these? I'm not denying that they happened...it'd just be more useful to have sources in a debate instead of bulleted claims.


-In Both 1956 and 1967 launched a war of aggression which is deemed a war crime by the Nuremberg Trial

Except that the Nuremberg Trials were specifically set up to prosecute leaders of Nazi Germany. Now if you're just trying to say that Israel has committed war crimes since the 1940s...that point is also meaningless in this conversation. They have (though the UN refuses to do anything about it) but I don't see how it affects this conflict.
This point makes it seem as though Israel has been the only country to be accused of committing war crimes since then, when in fact that's wildly incorrect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes).
You've essentially just said - Israel has been accused of committing war crimes since the Nuremberg Trials, and have left out the part saying, "The US, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc etc etc" have been accused of committing war crimes since the Nuremberg Trials.

-Demolished houses of people who had extremely weak links to Hamas, directly breaking international law
-Building something that is no different to the Berlin Wall-Neocons love to wank over that as being the evil socialist barrier but when Israel does it who cares
-Build on occupied land which is also a war crime


To me, these points, while important, aren't relevant to this Israel-Hamas conflict. Israeli settlements in the West Bank (while entirely illegitimate) has nothing to do with the ground invasion that is currently underway, nor do any of your other points.

[ImCoolBeans]

Israel was a mistake from the start.

That's pretty much as simple as it gets.

Why are people shocked this has happened? We threw down a few borders and said "this is here now" on "sacred land" that has been disputed for thousands of years. They will stop at nothing.

[Harry Smith]

I've responded to the other Israel thread in depth-will respond to this one when I get back from work

[CharlieHorse]

Kinda sick of the fighting. It's so stupid.

[Left Now]

Well,my opinion on this is :

First : Israel needs to be stopped.It's a long time that Israel is expanding its borders into Palestinians' legal territories and letting its own people settle in those lands.This is exactly what they did when first they came to Palestine;Killing local Palestinians,occupying their lands and then let so-called Jewish immigrants settle in.About 50 years have past and Israelis are still expanding their territories illegally.

They have to forget their expansionist plans and return all those lands which they have unlawfully occupied to their real owners,the real Palestinians.


Second : Who began the conflicts once again a while ago?Israeli side.
So if someone is going to have that right to respond in an act of defense,It is Palestinians and Gaza Strip,not Israelis and their government.

Third : After all these conflicts are over,Hamas has to be responsible for some crimes too,but now,they are the only ones who are defending Palestinians in Gaza through military ways,and preventing Israelis to invade more Palestinian lands

[Stronk Serb]

The countryball community summed it up perfectly when they introduced Israelcube. Imperfect balls are common in nature but a cube is unnatural, artificial. Just like the state of Israel. If some book which is equal to a bunch of fairy tales compiled into one book says that Israel is the rightful land of the Jews, then Serbia should control all of it's territories it had since the Middle Ages

[Kurgg]

Why they did not gave an unpopulated area to the Jews, like Russians did with their Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Siberia. There they would not have caused this. The Jewish state exist on Arab-populated area of Palestine only because of a fantasy book.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Jews and I support the idea of Jewish state. The problem is that it is in a wrong place even though they lived there 2000 years ago. According to that logic, do we Finns have a right to claim the Northern Russia to ourselves because we lived there many thousands years ago?

[Harry Smith]

I responded to this post elsewhere, so I'm going to respond in a shorter manor here




Israel, according to this (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.605139) source (which has been known to be quite critical of some of Israel's decisions despite being an Israeli newspaper), Israel is only required to not interfere with water distribution brought in by a neutral third party. They have no obligation to supply water (or electricity) to Gaza, but they do anyway.
Granted, cutting off the water supply to a town that is so dependent on it, in my opinion, cannot simply be an act of "targeting Hamas" and it should be looked into...but that's unlikely to happen.



can you...source these? I'm not denying that they happened...it'd just be more useful to have sources in a debate instead of bulleted claims.



Except that the Nuremberg Trials were specifically set up to prosecute leaders of Nazi Germany. Now if you're just trying to say that Israel has committed war crimes since the 1940s...that point is also meaningless in this conversation. They have (though the UN refuses to do anything about it) but I don't see how it affects this conflict.
This point makes it seem as though Israel has been the only country to be accused of committing war crimes since then, when in fact that's wildly incorrect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes).
You've essentially just said - Israel has been accused of committing war crimes since the Nuremberg Trials, and have left out the part saying, "The US, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc etc etc" have been accused of committing war crimes since the Nuremberg Trials.



To me, these points, while important, aren't relevant to this Israel-Hamas conflict. Israeli settlements in the West Bank (while entirely illegitimate) has nothing to do with the ground invasion that is currently underway, nor do any of your other points.

I'd argue that cutting off water not only breaks the Articles 3,4 and 5 of the Universal declaration of human rights which state that...

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person-Article 4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms-Article 5.No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment-Article 6

I'd also argue that the cutting off of water/electricity amounts to collective punishment which is also illegal under international law

Article 33. No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against persons and their property are prohibited.

Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, collective punishment is a war crime.

In regards to Israeli treatment of prisoners here's the sources

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerard-horton/imprisoned-palestinian-ch_b_1757094.html

the rights of Palestinian minors are flagrantly violated at every stage of the proceedings conducted against them, from the initial arrest and removal from their homes, through interrogation and trial, to serving the prison sentence, and then release."

. The report refers to evidence collected by Israeli and Palestinian lawyers, as well as UN agencies, which describes an abusive system in which children are threatened and physically coerced into signing confessions, some of which are written in Hebrew, a language they do not understand. Following their conviction in a military court, most of the children are shipped off to prisons in Israel

About MP's, they continue to arrest people without charge and hold them. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-arrests-four-hamas-leaders-including-mp-palestinian-officials-say-1.512067

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16646810

Israel released Natsheh from prison two months ago after six months in administrative detention without charge or trial. If the reports are correct, he is the fourth Hamas legislator arrested by Israel so far this year



Ah yeah the classic everyone else does it argument-if you read my other posts (US Foreign policy) I clearly showed that I believe the US have committed war crimes including a war of aggression in 2003. The UN have tried-please don't blame the UN. The only country to blame for the UN not being able to charge Israel is the US who have veteod nearly every single attempt by the UN to achieve justice on all the issues above.

My whole point about Israeli crimes is that there's been a pattern of abuse over the last 50 years-I mean I would be more sympathic if Israel had been following international laws and respecting human rights but they simply haven't. The people of Palestinian can't be blamed for wanting to be independent of Israel.

They have everything to do with the ground invasion. This isn't a one off incident-at the way it's going Israel will continue to do this for every 2-3 years, parts of the Israeli government are so deluded they honestly can't see that they've created the mess.

What do you expect to happen when you arrest children, bomb their homes and then cut off their electricity supply. It's a circle of abuse, the bad thing is that the big cases like this get media spotlight but the children dying of cholera or the night time raids that arrest children and cart them off to a foreign land.

TL;DR:it's a cycle of shit


I've made my opinion clear on this. Hamas are just about the worst thing that could be in power anywhere, let alone the nations bordering Israel.
I'm in support of both Israel and the current situation, but I feel sorry for the poor Palestinians caught up in it.

That being said, Hamas are very obviously playing the world for support, and it seems to be working.

*Clarification* by current situation I mean them bombing the launchers shooting at them.

No the worse thing is a nation that pretends to support democracy, freedom and justice but in fact supports terrorism, dictators and then invades countries on false charges leading to civil war-top marks if you guess what country that is.

It's funny you say

I'm in support of both Israel and the current situation, but I feel sorry for the poor Palestinians caught up in it.

That's like saying I support rape but I feel sorry for the victims.

There not playing the world for support, the people in Gaza aren't launching massive campaigns to fund Hamas. They simply want to end the suffering that has gone on for the last 10 years. Do you support the right of Palestine to be a free nation?