Israel kill 4 children on a beach [Archive]

Harry Smith

July 17th, 2014, 04:17 PM

Meanwhile Israel is still being relentlessly being mortared, rocketed, and shelled from Hamas militants hiding among the Palestinian population, and if it were not for the Iron Dome, there'd quite possibly be thousands of Israeli citizens dead.

If you're going to call out Israel on their retaliation strikes, at least remember to get your head out of your ass and see the actual reasoning behind the strikes.

Also, Israel has been dropping leaflets and informing civilians to either evacuate the area where they've been striking military targets since this whole shit-storm has gone down, yet I see no such warning from Hamas. But hey, it's just Israel, so who cares right?

But there's not thousands of Israeli's dead.... thanks to the good old US military industrial complex who are no doubt rubbing their hands with glee.

Please tell me what did the Israelis' do when they were trapped in the Warsaw Ghetto? What did the Israelis' do to British soldiers in 1948? They bombed the shit out them. Israel can't criticize Hamas for using violence when the Israeli state was born out of blood of British Troops. I don't support Hamas or there tactics but I can understand why they feel that they've got no choice-see below about Israeli crimes in the region

I'm not saying that Israelis' had no right to do that in 1948 but it has to cut both ways. Do you support Israels' use of terror in the 1940s?

The King David Hotel bombing was an attack carried out on Monday July 22, 1946 by the militant right-wing Zionist underground organization, the Irgun, on the British administrative headquarters for Palestine, which was housed in the southern wing[1] of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem

The Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party.[9] Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977.

That makes it so much better. Please tell me what warning were the 4 children on the beach given before they were blown up? You can't just blow up a entire city and say 'we gave you a warning'. The warning was crap at best-almost all international law shows that Israel have committed war crimes but you don't care about international law. Ignoring the physical question about Hamas you can't punish a population for the actions of one group. When Britain was getting bombed by the IRA in the 1970's we didn't launch air attacks on Belfast, lockdown the city and cut off resources like Water and medicine (we weren't perfect though), when Cuba faced terrorist attacks on it's airlines, fields, factories and ports they didn't invade Guantanamo bay. Despite what G.W Bush says you don't respond to terrorism by blowing up entire cities.

60 years ago we called the Israeli's terrorists for killing British troops in Palenstine-now our leaders welcome them
40 years ago we called Nelson Mandela a terrorist for launching attacks against South Africa-we all mourned him greatly when he died
30 years ago we called the IRA a bunch of republican terrorists who should be destroyed-now they're part of a Stable unified Northern Ireland

There seems to be a pattern of embracing people we've seen as terrorists, and seeing the regimes they fought against (British Empire. Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa) as regimes that had needed to be stopped

I would be more sympathetic to your argument if this was the first time it's happened but it's not. So far Israel have
-Cut of key supplies such as Water which are a human right
-Detained children in Military Style jails without a lawyer present
-Imprisoned elected members of parliament without charge for up to 12 months
-In Both 1956 and 1967 launched a war of aggression which is deemed a war crime by the Nuremberg Trial
-Demolished houses of people who had extremely weak links to Hamas, directly breaking international law
-Building something that is no different to the Berlin Wall-Neocons love to wank over that as being the evil socialist barrier but when Israel does it who cares
-Build on occupied land which is also a war crime

One thing the UN is good at is documentating war crimes, they know there legal cases and they often present a fair case (their problem is implementing punishment) look what they said

UN agencies, local and international human rights groups and others have documented a pattern of war crimes and other serious violations of international law – both international humanitarian law and international human rights law – committed by Israeli military and security forces since they occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip in 1967.

UN agencies, local and international human rights groups and others have documented a pattern of war crimes and other serious violations of international law – both international humanitarian law and international human rights law – committed by Israeli military and security forces since they occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip in 1967.

How would you feel if Cuba said to Florida-you've been launching terrorist attacks since 1960 against the sovereign state of Cuba we're going to bomb you-would you support Cuba bombing Florida? Of course you wouldn't but it hurts when the role is switched.

Israel treatment of Palestinian civilans is no different to Nazi treatment of Jews and others in the Warsaw Ghetto (luckily Israel haven't reached the final solution stage yet).

Israel foreign policy is built upon the blood and to quote the evil Russians ' You can build a throne with bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long.''

To end on a quote look what the leader of the Free world said this week '' there's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders'' Austin, I think the only thing we can agree on in this regard is that Obama is a massive hypocrite considering he's bombed about 6 countries in the last 6 years of office. The US quite rightly celebrated a couple of weeks ago the fact that they overthrew a tyrannical government that massacred civilians, denied political rights and used a military to crush dissident. Seems strange that you support the George III of the Middle East

Gamma Male

July 17th, 2014, 04:27 PM

Wow, I can already smell the pro and anti Israelis snapping at each others throats.

It's a shame Israel has the entire international community wrapped around their pinky finger. Maybe otherwise there'd actually be repercussions for their reckless and unnecessary bombings.

Harry Smith

July 17th, 2014, 04:51 PM

UPDATE Israel have sent in the Troops, lets hope the people of Gaza can survive the might of the Israel Army

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/israel-launches-ground-operation-gaza-strip-n158646

Cpt_Cutter

July 17th, 2014, 05:00 PM

Maybe otherwise there'd actually be repercussions for their reckless and unnecessary bombings.

Ah yes, thanks for reminding me defending themselves from being hit by literally thousands of missiles is reckless and unnecessary. I forgot that for a moment. /s

Harry Smith

July 17th, 2014, 05:03 PM

Ah yes, thanks for reminding me defending themselves from being hit by literally thousands of missiles is reckless and unnecessary. I forgot that for a moment. /s

Read my post above, it explains that this is much more than a couple of homemade rockets

Cpt_Cutter

July 17th, 2014, 05:04 PM

But there's not thousands of Israeli's dead.... thanks to the good old US military industrial complex who are no doubt rubbing their hands with glee.

Yes thanks to that 100% american made iron dome missile defense system. Or not.

Israel treatment of Palestinian civilans is no different to Nazi treatment of Jews and others in the Warsaw Ghetto (luckily Israel haven't reached the final solution stage yet).

I was willing to give you benefit of the doubt, but this comment is by far and wide both the stupidest comment I have ever seen on this site and one of the the most bluntly offensive things I have ever seen, let alone on this site.

Congrats, I guess I have to go get you a trophy made now.

green white

July 17th, 2014, 05:04 PM

I hope Palestine is free from Israel.
I'm not pro or kontra one of them

Harry Smith

July 17th, 2014, 05:07 PM

I was willing to give you benefit of the doubt, but this comment is by far and wide both the stupidest comment I have ever seen on this site and one of the the most bluntly offensive things I have ever seen, let alone on this site.

What's the difference? Even people who've been to the camps agree with the view. I think the next thing to do is to accuse me of being anti-Semitic, because everyone who dislikes Israeli policy is anti-semantic. Israel is becoming a modern day Nazi Germany e.g 1930's. Powerful groups of hawks wanting further action, imprisoning journalists, invading neighboring countries, passing questionable laws about identity and citizenship, removing large groups of individuals from an area based on race or nationality. The point I want to stress is that Israel haven't reached 1940's Germany and I doubt they will-they're just on the warmongering, murderous rampage of the 1930's Germany.

Your more than welcome to disagree with my comment, do you deny that Israel have done the following acts above?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/auschwitz-survivor-israel-acts-like-nazis-1.1000918

So you deny that US defense companies play no role in the dome?

May 2010, the White House announced that U.S. President Barack Obama would seek $205 million from U.S. Congress in his 2011 budget, to spur the production and deployment of additional Iron Dome batteries.

With the United States on track to greatly increase funding for Iron Dome, there have been calls for technology transfer and co-production of Iron Dome in the United States. Just as the US and Israel share co-production of the Arrow III missile system, with Boeing manufacturing 40–50 percent of the production content, there has been support in the U.S. Congress, media and think tanks in favor of co-production.

In July 2014 it was announced that Raytheon will be the major U.S. partner in co-production of major components for the Iron Dome’s Tamir intercepting missile.[47] The U.S. firm will supply components through various subcontractors.

Gamma Male

July 17th, 2014, 05:11 PM

Ah yes, thanks for reminding me defending themselves from being hit by literally thousands of missiles is reckless and unnecessary. I forgot that for a moment. /s

If they were really only interested in defense they would actually do something to encourage peace, like letting the UN step in to moderate peaceful border disputes. They've done nothing but aggregate.

Besides, looking at the way Palestinian Israeli citizens are treated you can tell their true motive is blind hatred. Israel is an apartheid state. Every day Palestinian Israeli civilians are subjected to police abuse, neglect, hatred, suspicion, and denial of basic human rights. If they really wanted peace and they were the victims you claim them tilo be they would start to treat Palestinian Israeli citizens with respect and dignity.

Lovelife090994

July 17th, 2014, 08:17 PM

Israel are up to there old tricks again,

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-leaflets-dropped-on-northern-gaza-ordering-100000-to-evacuate-amid-fears-of-imminent-ground-incursion-9609788.html

No doubt Israel/US/NATO will ingore this, and claim Israel was just 'defending itself. If this happened in Iran the US would be invading yet the international community don't seem to care

So you are mad at Israel for defending itself against attacks all while evacuating it's own people? Then you compare the Israeli Jews to Nazis later? Wow, you really have gone too far.

If they were really only interested in defense they would actually do something to encourage peace, like letting the UN step in to moderate peaceful border disputes. They've done nothing but aggregate.

Besides, looking at the way Palestinian Israeli citizens are treated you can tell their true motive is blind hatred. Israel is an apartheid state. Every day Palestinian Israeli civilians are subjected to police abuse, neglect, hatred, suspicion, and denial of basic human rights. If they really wanted peace and they were the victims you claim them tilo be they would start to treat Palestinian Israeli citizens with respect and dignity.

The UN has no real power. Talking is not going to work. It is clear that both sides are done talking!

StoppingTime

July 17th, 2014, 08:40 PM

But there's not thousands of Israeli's dead.... thanks to the good old US military industrial complex who are no doubt rubbing their hands with glee.

The fact that the US has supported the IDF in the past has literally nothing to do with this conflict. That's nothing more than a statement in this thread.

Please tell me what did the Israelis' do when they were trapped in the Warsaw Ghetto? What did the Israelis' do to British soldiers in 1948? They bombed the shit out them. Israel can't criticize Hamas for using violence when the Israeli state was born out of blood of British Troops. I don't support Hamas or there tactics but I can understand why they feel that they've got no choice-see below about Israeli crimes in the region

>Compares today's violence to the Israel's War of Independence in 1948
>Therefore Hamas can be violent towards Israeli's...when Hamas didn't exist in 1948
>???

That makes it so much better. Please tell me what warning were the 4 children on the beach given before they were blown up?

They weren't given any, and it was an absolutely horrendous act carried out by the IDF. Whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant - it happened, and they should be reprimanded (which is another topic entirely).

You can't just blow up a entire city and say 'we gave you a warning'.

In case you're unaware, Gaza is quite small. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip) The Israeli army isn't exactly "blowing up entire cities."

The warning was crap at best

They drop leaflets, they have the "roof knockers" or whatever you want to call them, they send out mass texts/phone alerts to those living in Gaza. (http://www.arabnews.com/news/603181) And you know what Hamas does? They tell their citizens there's "no need to worry" and to ignore all the warnings coming from the IDF as they're "scare tactics." (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4541484,00.html)

Ignoring the physical question about Hamas you can't punish a population for the actions of one group.

Why do you believe that it is in Israel's best interest to be killing innocent civilians? What kind of statement is that? (Plus the fact that Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza...so there's that, too.)

When Britain was getting bombed by the IRA in the 1970's we didn't launch air attacks on Belfast, lockdown the city and cut off resources like Water and medicine (we weren't perfect though), when Cuba faced terrorist attacks on it's airlines, fields, factories and ports they didn't invade Guantanamo bay. Despite what G.W Bush says you don't respond to terrorism by blowing up entire cities.

I fail to see how this has any relevance to this conversation..?

Israel treatment of Palestinian civilans is no different to Nazi treatment of Jews and others in the Warsaw Ghetto (luckily Israel haven't reached the final solution stage yet).

...And now everything you've said/will reply to has lost all of its credibility. Good for you!

Cpt_Cutter

July 17th, 2014, 09:49 PM

Your more than welcome to disagree with my comment, do you deny that Israel have done the following acts above?

Israel has done many bad things in it's history, but so have many other nations on earth.

I don't agree with your claim of them being warmongers. The tenth man rule, which does exist, leads to situations where they strike first, I will concede, but when a nation is surrounded by countries that would happily kill all of the inhabitants of said nation, you cannot blame them for being hostile or (For lack of a batter word) "Skittish".

The fact that Zionist minority extremists carried out an attack in 1946 and now are in charge is 100% irrelevant. I could say the same things about the Americans rebelling against the British, or a hundred other rebellions or attacks by groups that disagreed with other groups. Hell, 9/11 was the same formula.

So you deny that US defense companies play no role in the dome?

I believe that is a double negative, but If what you are trying to say is that do I deny the US had any part in the dome, the the answer is no. I never denied it, I implied it was a mainly Israeli affair.

When Britain was getting bombed by the IRA in the 1970's we didn't launch air attacks on Belfast, lock-down the city and cut off resources like Water and medicine

This analogy was fairly terrible, and here's why; Of-course Britain did none of that, There was nothing to bomb. Unlike a rocket launching position, you cant find and bomb a terrorist building a bomb in his basement like you can bomb a launch site. Do you concede that if the IRA in Belfast started rocketing British positions the RAF would have taken action against those positions?

Sir Suomi

July 17th, 2014, 11:32 PM

But there's not thousands of Israeli's dead.... thanks to the good old US military industrial complex who are no doubt rubbing their hands with glee.

Please tell me what did the Israelis' do when they were trapped in the Warsaw Ghetto? What did the Israelis' do to British soldiers in 1948? They bombed the shit out them. Israel can't criticize Hamas for using violence when the Israeli state was born out of blood of British Troops. I don't support Hamas or there tactics but I can understand why they feel that they've got no choice-see below about Israeli crimes in the region

I'm not saying that Israelis' had no right to do that in 1948 but it has to cut both ways. Do you support Israels' use of terror in the 1940s?

That makes it so much better. Please tell me what warning were the 4 children on the beach given before they were blown up? You can't just blow up a entire city and say 'we gave you a warning'. The warning was crap at best-almost all international law shows that Israel have committed war crimes but you don't care about international law. Ignoring the physical question about Hamas you can't punish a population for the actions of one group. When Britain was getting bombed by the IRA in the 1970's we didn't launch air attacks on Belfast, lockdown the city and cut off resources like Water and medicine (we weren't perfect though), when Cuba faced terrorist attacks on it's airlines, fields, factories and ports they didn't invade Guantanamo bay. Despite what G.W Bush says you don't respond to terrorism by blowing up entire cities.

60 years ago we called the Israeli's terrorists for killing British troops in Palenstine-now our leaders welcome them
40 years ago we called Nelson Mandela a terrorist for launching attacks against South Africa-we all mourned him greatly when he died
30 years ago we called the IRA a bunch of republican terrorists who should be destroyed-now they're part of a Stable unified Northern Ireland

There seems to be a pattern of embracing people we've seen as terrorists, and seeing the regimes they fought against (British Empire. Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa) as regimes that had needed to be stopped

I would be more sympathetic to your argument if this was the first time it's happened but it's not. So far Israel have
-Cut of key supplies such as Water which are a human right
-Detained children in Military Style jails without a lawyer present
-Imprisoned elected members of parliament without charge for up to 12 months
-In Both 1956 and 1967 launched a war of aggression which is deemed a war crime by the Nuremberg Trial
-Demolished houses of people who had extremely weak links to Hamas, directly breaking international law
-Building something that is no different to the Berlin Wall-Neocons love to wank over that as being the evil socialist barrier but when Israel does it who cares
-Build on occupied land which is also a war crime

One thing the UN is good at is documentating war crimes, they know there legal cases and they often present a fair case (their problem is implementing punishment) look what they said

How would you feel if Cuba said to Florida-you've been launching terrorist attacks since 1960 against the sovereign state of Cuba we're going to bomb you-would you support Cuba bombing Florida? Of course you wouldn't but it hurts when the role is switched.

Israel treatment of Palestinian civilans is no different to Nazi treatment of Jews and others in the Warsaw Ghetto (luckily Israel haven't reached the final solution stage yet).

Israel foreign policy is built upon the blood and to quote the evil Russians ' You can build a throne with bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long.''

To end on a quote look what the leader of the Free world said this week '' there's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders'' Austin, I think the only thing we can agree on in this regard is that Obama is a massive hypocrite considering he's bombed about 6 countries in the last 6 years of office. The US quite rightly celebrated a couple of weeks ago the fact that they overthrew a tyrannical government that massacred civilians, denied political rights and used a military to crush dissident. Seems strange that you support the George III of the Middle East

i. So you're saying you're glad that the Iron Dome is not protecting Israeli citizens?

ii. Valid point, but here's the difference: Israeli militants hit mainly military targets, while Hamas is simply trying to strike fear into the hearts and minds of the Israelis by attacking their citizens directly. Also, what's happened in the past has happened, and as of now, Hamas should be seen as a threat that needs to be eliminated.

iii. I will admit, Israel is aggressive in it's means of taking down terrorist organizations, but speaking logistically, how do you fight an enemy who hides within it's own people? Obviously the tactic that seems a little more humane, for example our tactics in Afghanistan in the past decades, do not completely wipe out the enemy forces. These bastards are on their front porch, it's only reasonable to think that they'd try and you as many tactics as they could, even if they're regarding as a little too extreme. I'm personally not in too much favor of them, but it's a whole new ballpark there.

iv. Be that as it may, as of today, Hamas is still a well known terrorist organization, and we will deal with them with them as quickly and as effectively as we can.

v. Well, it is a Jewish state, is it not? I don't see you criticizing Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries for their treatment of their citizens.

vi. Here's a simple quote: "If every Arab county in the world laid down their weapons, there would be world peace. If Israel would lay down it's weapons, there would be no Israel." Israel has had to fight for it's own existence, ever since it's creation. That's nothing new.

vii. I can agree with your on that, Obama is one of our most incapable leaders in our whole history as a nation. Sometimes I even think Romney would've done at least a somewhat better job at it.

Harry Smith

July 18th, 2014, 01:42 AM

i. So you're saying you're glad that the Iron Dome is not protecting Israeli citizens?

ii. Valid point, but here's the difference: Israeli militants hit mainly military targets, while Hamas is simply trying to strike fear into the hearts and minds of the Israelis by attacking their citizens directly. Also, what's happened in the past has happened, and as of now, Hamas should be seen as a threat that needs to be eliminated.

iii. I will admit, Israel is aggressive in it's means of taking down terrorist organizations, but speaking logistically, how do you fight an enemy who hides within it's own people? Obviously the tactic that seems a little more humane, for example our tactics in Afghanistan in the past decades, do not completely wipe out the enemy forces. These bastards are on their front porch, it's only reasonable to think that they'd try and you as many tactics as they could, even if they're regarding as a little too extreme. I'm personally not in too much favor of them, but it's a whole new ballpark there.

iv. Be that as it may, as of today, Hamas is still a well known terrorist organization, and we will deal with them with them as quickly and as effectively as we can.

v. Well, it is a Jewish state, is it not? I don't see you criticizing Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries for their treatment of their citizens.

vi. Here's a simple quote: "If every Arab county in the world laid down their weapons, there would be world peace. If Israel would lay down it's weapons, there would be no Israel." Israel has had to fight for it's own existence, ever since it's creation. That's nothing new.

vii. I can agree with your on that, Obama is one of our most incapable leaders in our whole history as a nation. Sometimes I even think Romney would've done at least a somewhat better job at it.

I-No my entire claim is that your point about the Iron Dome is mute by default because it exists. You said 'imagine if it didn't exist thousands would die etc'' where as it does exist so your going into the Realms of Fantasty

II-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Whilst the Arabs also committed many a crimes in the 1940's it was part of my wider point about terrorism. As shocking as it is I believe that a nation can, and should have the right to use terrorism against military and political targets to overthrow an oppressive regime in the way that if the Nazis invaded Britain in 1940 I'd support the use of military target based terrorism. If your from the US this will help you greatly

XKfuS6gfxPY

III-Problem with Afganistan was that the terrain isn't what the US troops trained for-the British Army was guilty of that as well-we expected to be fighting Soviet Troops in Europe not hardened tribes would used their local knowledge to cross back into Pakistan after shooting us.

I just don't think bombing a city is going to stop Hamas, as I've said in many other posts you can't stop terrorism with more war,death and destruction. The problem is that there's radical elements within both Hamas and Israel who don't want peace, meaning that both sides are forced into a confrontation.

I think now that even people like yourself who could be described as pro-Israel are starting to question if it's wise to shell a beach with children running on it, I get that civilian casualties will happen but if you drop bombs into a civilized area then of course it's going to happen.

IV That's what I posted a couple of weeks ago about Saudi Arabia, there another middle east country that is not given the scrutiny that it needs. It's not a 'Jewish' stat yet to my knowledge-they want to to make it one though.

Saudi Arabia-Another Cuba type, supported a corrupt ruling family in exchange for wealth and security. Saudi's have one of the most extreme islamic states including virtually no rights for women, LGBT or underclass within society.

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=209578&page=3

VI-fair statement to make in the 1950's when Israel really was under threat from nation states (Nasser in Eypgt) who could destroy it however they 'won' that series of conflicts meaning that the Israeli state is safe. I'm not asking Israel to stop having a military, I'm asking them to engage in a peace process rather than blockading a city. Israel have 200 nuclear warheads-they don't even need guns to survive anymore.

VII: It just highlights the entire irony of the situation, it's bad for Hamas to do it but he's perfectly fine with his CIA friends doing it to Yemen. The problem with Obama is that he promised radical change but has largely failed to deliver in Foreign Policy. Like Israel the US has people pulling strings (congressmen, defense companies, lobbyists)

Israel has done many bad things in it's history, but so have many other nations on earth.

I don't agree with your claim of them being warmongers. The tenth man rule, which does exist, leads to situations where they strike first, I will concede, but when a nation is surrounded by countries that would happily kill all of the inhabitants of said nation, you cannot blame them for being hostile or (For lack of a batter word) "Skittish".

The fact that Zionist minority extremists carried out an attack in 1946 and now are in charge is 100% irrelevant. I could say the same things about the Americans rebelling against the British, or a hundred other rebellions or attacks by groups that disagreed with other groups. Hell, 9/11 was the same formula.

I believe that is a double negative, but If what you are trying to say is that do I deny the US had any part in the dome, the the answer is no. I never denied it, I implied it was a mainly Israeli affair.

This analogy was fairly terrible, and here's why; Of-course Britain did none of that, There was nothing to bomb. Unlike a rocket launching position, you cant find and bomb a terrorist building a bomb in his basement like you can bomb a launch site. Do you concede that if the IRA in Belfast started rocketing British positions the RAF would have taken action against those positions?

That doesn't matter, it doesn't help the dead Palestinian children. See back to previous statments-this argument could justify slavery or other heinous crimes.

Cold War thinking again-the countries surrounding Israel don't want to see it's entire population destroyed-that's a massive exaggeration. Israel is so well armed it means that it's never going to happen, this isn't 1940. Israel is very much a warmongering state. In 1956 we got Israel to attack Egypt with us, and here's the reason why... they attacked Eypt to get natural resources-pretty much like Iraq in 2003 it was done to secure resources.

Israel would have access to the Red Sea for the first time since 1953, which would allow it to restore the trade benefits of secure passage to the Indian Ocean.

The fact that the US has supported the IDF in the past has literally nothing to do with this conflict. That's nothing more than a statement in this thread.

>Compares today's violence to the Israel's War of Independence in 1948
>Therefore Hamas can be violent towards Israeli's...when Hamas didn't exist in 1948
>???

They weren't given any, and it was an absolutely horrendous act carried out by the IDF. Whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant - it happened, and they should be reprimanded (which is another topic entirely).

In case you're unaware, Gaza is quite small. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip) The Israeli army isn't exactly "blowing up entire cities."

They drop leaflets, they have the "roof knockers" or whatever you want to call them, they send out mass texts/phone alerts to those living in Gaza. (http://www.arabnews.com/news/603181) And you know what Hamas does? They tell their citizens there's "no need to worry" and to ignore all the warnings coming from the IDF as they're "scare tactics." (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4541484,00.html)

Why do you believe that it is in Israel's best interest to be killing innocent civilians? What kind of statement is that? (Plus the fact that Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza...so there's that, too.)

I fail to see how this has any relevance to this conversation..?

In the past? US defense companies still play a very active role in Israel and it's armed forces. In fact US support has everything to do with this.

What do you think would happen if Iran did this? I think the US would be calling for an invasion-the US has blocked nearly have single UN measure about Israel, even small one's about ensuring aid gets in to Gaza they've blocked. The Israel lobby is huge (watch house of cards episode 2)

Not really, I was asking Austin if he supported the use of terror by Israel in the 1940's, do you support the use of terror by Israeli groups in 1940? I'm trying to make people realize that so often in History today's terrorist (Mandela, IRA etc) are tomorrow's peace makers (Hamas would need detoxifying to put it lightly)

I'll go back to my point about Florida-you can't use leaflets as a justification of collective punishment. US has supported anti-castro terrorists from Florida (see operation mongoose etc), would Cuba have a right to drop leaflets on Miami and say you have 30 minutes to leave because we're targeting the CIA terror groups. Quite rightly I imagine you'd be upset.

It's clearly illegal to punish a group of people for the actions of a few-for example as I said before the British in the 1970's didn't bomb and kill about 200 Irish civilians every couple of years.

Both are in fact very relevant-I'm trying to make us see it from a different side of view. I'm sure most people can accept that western countries have supported terrorism in the past, the actions of the CIA in Cuba is pretty much terrorism (assassinations, poisoning food, blowing up airlines)

So you are mad at Israel for defending itself against attacks all while evacuating it's own people?

FFS did you even read my post-at least Stopping Time/Austin and others were able to see my post wasn't that Black and white. I'm saying that it's not as simple as self defense. I'm angry that Israel can't see what it's done wrong in Gaza

...And now everything you've said/will reply to has lost all of its credibility. Good for you!

Then you compare the Israeli Jews to Nazis later? Wow, you really have gone too far.

You both criticize the analogy, but neither of you give a reason why apart from saying that I had no right so say it. I get that it may shock you but Israel is becoming like 1930's germany, and the treatment of minority shows that

What's the difference? Even people who've been to the camps agree with the view. I think the next thing to do is to accuse me of being anti-Semitic, because everyone who dislikes Israeli policy is anti-semantic. Israel is becoming a modern day Nazi Germany e.g 1930's. Powerful groups of hawks wanting further action, imprisoning journalists, invading neighboring countries, passing questionable laws about identity and citizenship, removing large groups of individuals from an area based on race or nationality. The point I want to stress is that Israel haven't reached 1940's Germany and I doubt they will-they're just on the warmongering, murderous rampage of the 1930's Germany.

Your more than welcome to disagree with my comment, do you deny that Israel have done the following acts above?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/p...azis-1.1000918

Lovelife090994

July 18th, 2014, 01:58 AM

I-No my entire claim is that your point about the Iron Dome is mute by default because it exists. You said 'imagine if it didn't exist thousands would die etc'' where as it does exist so your going into the Realms of Fantasty

II-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Whilst the Arabs also committed many a crimes in the 1940's it was part of my wider point about terrorism. As shocking as it is I believe that a nation can, and should have the right to use terrorism against military and political targets to overthrow an oppressive regime in the way that if the Nazis invaded Britain in 1940 I'd support the use of military target based terrorism. If your from the US this will help you greatly

XKfuS6gfxPY

III-Problem with Afganistan was that the terrain isn't what the US troops trained for-the British Army was guilty of that as well-we expected to be fighting Soviet Troops in Europe not hardened tribes would used their local knowledge to cross back into Pakistan after shooting us.

I just don't think bombing a city is going to stop Hamas, as I've said in many other posts you can't stop terrorism with more war,death and destruction. The problem is that there's radical elements within both Hamas and Israel who don't want peace, meaning that both sides are forced into a confrontation.

I think now that even people like yourself who could be described as pro-Israel are starting to question if it's wise to shell a beach with children running on it, I get that civilian casualties will happen but if you drop bombs into a civilized area then of course it's going to happen.

IV That's what I posted a couple of weeks ago about Saudi Arabia, there another middle east country that is not given the scrutiny that it needs. It's not a 'Jewish' stat yet to my knowledge-they want to to make it one though.

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=209578&page=3

VI-fair statement to make in the 1950's when Israel really was under threat from nation states (Nasser in Eypgt) who could destroy it however they 'won' that series of conflicts meaning that the Israeli state is safe. I'm not asking Israel to stop having a military, I'm asking them to engage in a peace process rather than blockading a city. Israel have 200 nuclear warheads-they don't even need guns to survive anymore.

VII: It just highlights the entire irony of the situation, it's bad for Hamas to do it but he's perfectly fine with his CIA friends doing it to Yemen. The problem with Obama is that he promised radical change but has largely failed to deliver in Foreign Policy. Like Israel the US has people pulling strings (congressmen, defense companies, lobbyists)

That doesn't matter, it doesn't help the dead Palestinian children. See back to previous statments-this argument could justify slavery or other heinous crimes.

Cold War thinking again-the countries surrounding Israel don't want to see it's entire population destroyed-that's a massive exaggeration. Israel is so well armed it means that it's never going to happen, this isn't 1940. Israel is very much a warmongering state. In 1956 we got Israel to attack Egypt with us, and here's the reason why... they attacked Eypt to get natural resources-pretty much like Iraq in 2003 it was done to secure resources.

In the past? US defense companies still play a very active role in Israel and it's armed forces. In fact US support has everything to do with this.

What do you think would happen if Iran did this? I think the US would be calling for an invasion-the US has blocked nearly have single UN measure about Israel, even small one's about ensuring aid gets in to Gaza they've blocked. The Israel lobby is huge (watch house of cards episode 2)

Not really, I was asking Austin if he supported the use of terror by Israel in the 1940's, do you support the use of terror by Israeli groups in 1940? I'm trying to make people realize that so often in History today's terrorist (Mandela, IRA etc) are tomorrow's peace makers (Hamas would need detoxifying to put it lightly)

I'll go back to my point about Florida-you can't use leaflets as a justification of collective punishment. US has supported anti-castro terrorists from Florida (see operation mongoose etc), would Cuba have a right to drop leaflets on Miami and say you have 30 minutes to leave because we're targeting the CIA terror groups. Quite rightly I imagine you'd be upset.

It's clearly illegal to punish a group of people for the actions of a few-for example as I said before the British in the 1970's didn't bomb and kill about 200 Irish civilians every couple of years.

Both are in fact very relevant-I'm trying to make us see it from a different side of view. I'm sure most people can accept that western countries have supported terrorism in the past, the actions of the CIA in Cuba is pretty much terrorism (assassinations, poisoning food, blowing up airlines)

FFS did you even read my post-at least Stopping Time/Austin and others were able to see my post wasn't that Black and white. I'm saying that it's not as simple as self defense. I'm angry that Israel can't see what it's done wrong in Gaza

You both criticize the analogy, but neither of you give a reason why apart from saying that I had no right so say it. I get that it may shock you but Israel is becoming like 1930's germany, and the treatment of minority shows that

Harry, listen to me. This is dire. Don't you get it? The Israeli Jews are already the minority! They are fighting for all they have left. The minute they lower their shields then Israel and most of the Jews and Jerusalem are gone. Do you get it? The Arab world wants Israel obliterated. You cannot possibly want that. The world has been against the Jews since Egypt, let's help them for once. And as a person I support Israel (who did send warnings.) But as a Christian I have a duty to my brethren the Jews since I am one by spirit in the Lord. Last thing I want is to see God's chosen masacered.

Harry Smith

July 18th, 2014, 12:53 PM

The Arab world wants Israel obliterated. You cannot possibly want that. The world has been against the Jews since Egypt, let's help them for once.

That's a flat out lie. This isn't just about Jews/Arabs, and tbh if you think it is then you need to read about the entire conflict

On your other point since 1948 the UK/US have been helping Israel out a fair bit-we've given them nuclear weapons ffs what more do you want us to do to help this warmongering . This myth that Israel could collapse is false-they've got 200+ nuclear warheads. They even planed to set off a dirty bomb in 1973 if they lost.

The biggest problem with pro-israel people is that they come out with the usual tripe but they don't offer a way forward. You talk about wanting to help the Jews, surely as a christian you should want to help to end the entire conflict. Saying that I don't think Religion should play a part in deciding foreign policy-just look where it left us

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html

Lovelife090994

July 18th, 2014, 03:01 PM

That's a flat out lie. This isn't just about Jews/Arabs, and tbh if you think it is then you need to read about the entire conflict

On your other point since 1948 the UK/US have been helping Israel out a fair bit-we've given them nuclear weapons ffs what more do you want us to do to help this warmongering . This myth that Israel could collapse is false-they've got 200+ nuclear warheads. They even planed to set off a dirty bomb in 1973 if they lost.

The biggest problem with pro-israel people is that they come out with the usual tripe but they don't offer a way forward. You talk about wanting to help the Jews, surely as a christian you should want to help to end the entire conflict. Saying that I don't think Religion should play a part in deciding foreign policy-just look where it left us

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html

No, you're lost. Nuclear or not, if Israel does defend itself it will be wiped off the Earth. You don't know what you're talking about. This has nothing to do with religion. Don't be antitheist. The problem is how Israel has an entire region against it. This conflict has gone on for centuries, millennia even, you can't end it that quickly. You want Israel dead with your thinking.

Harry Smith

July 18th, 2014, 03:12 PM

The problem is how Israel has an entire region against it. You want Israel dead with your thinking.

No it doesn't-you quite clearly don't know your geopolitics. Can you tell me what region it is? The new Military dictatorship in Egypt are following the Mubarak route of appeasing Israel to allow US support (see Tony Blair's comments). Jordan have very good relations with Israel compared to the 1970's, in fact look what the King of Jordan said

Jordanian King Abdullah noted that Israel, which he recognizes as a vital regional ally, has been highly responsive to requests by Abdullah to resume direct peace talks

In 2014, Israeli and Jordanian officials signed a 15-year deal in which Israel will supply $500 million worth of gas to Jordan from the Tamar natural gas field in the Mediterranean

Please actually research the topic next time, you stated than an entire region is against Israel when in fact the two major nations that it borders (Egypt and Jordan) have very good relations with Israel. I wouldn't be alone in saying that your subject knowledge on a range of topics is sparse. Just look at this...

This has nothing to do with religion.

But as a Christian I have a duty to my brethren the Jews since I am one by spirit in the Lord. Last thing I want is to see God's chosen masacered.

Lovelife090994

July 18th, 2014, 03:23 PM

No it doesn't-you quite clearly don't know your geopolitics. Can you tell me what region it is? The new Military dictatorship in Egypt are following the Mubarak route of appeasing Israel to allow US support (see Tony Blair's comments). Jordan have very good relations with Israel compared to the 1970's, in fact look what the King of Jordan said

Please actually research the topic next time, you stated than an entire region is against Israel when in fact the two major nations that it borders (Egypt and Jordan) have very good relations with Israel. I wouldn't be alone in saying that your subject knowledge on a range of topics is sparse. Just look at this...

Quit playing coy, and quit pulling things out of nowhere. My religion makes me a Jew in spirit since Christianity owes it's existence to the Jews. Blessed are those who blesses Israel.

thatcountrykid

July 18th, 2014, 03:24 PM

If they were really only interested in defense they would actually do something to encourage peace, like letting the UN step in to moderate peaceful border disputes. They've done nothing but aggregate.

Besides, looking at the way Palestinian Israeli citizens are treated you can tell their true motive is blind hatred. Israel is an apartheid state. Every day Palestinian Israeli civilians are subjected to police abuse, neglect, hatred, suspicion, and denial of basic human rights. If they really wanted peace and they were the victims you claim them tilo be they would start to treat Palestinian Israeli citizens with respect and dignity.

Did you see that Israel had agreed to egypts cease fire until Hamas continued attacks

Harry Smith

July 18th, 2014, 03:29 PM

Quit playing coy, and quit pulling things out of nowhere. My religion makes me a Jew in spirit since Christianity owes it's existence to the Jews. Blessed are those who blesses Israel.

I'm not playing coy-you flat out stated that Israel is surronded by nations who want to destroy it, I provided evidence to show that both Egypt and Jordan are extremely pro-Israeli despite what you think.

You do know that not everyone in Israel is jewish right? And you do know that not every Jew supports Israel?

Did you see that Israel had agreed to egypts cease fire until Hamas continued attacks

Would you of accepted a ceasefire in 1941 after Pearl Harbour?

thatcountrykid

July 18th, 2014, 03:33 PM

Harry Smith

July 18th, 2014, 03:48 PM

Pearl Harbor is irrelevant.

No it's not, would you of accepted a cease fire after Pearl Harbour? It's a simple question, I agree Hamas should accept the ceasefire, it's just interesting considering how the US love to talk about Pearl Harbour/9:11 and it's the same with us and the Falklands. If the Argie's offered us peace after they invaded we wouldn't of taken it.

Left Now

July 18th, 2014, 04:04 PM

No it's not, would you of accepted a cease fire after Pearl Harbour? It's a simple question, I agree Hamas should accept the ceasefire, it's just interesting considering how the US love to talk about Pearl Harbour/9:11 and it's the same with us and the Falklands. If the Argie's offered us peace after they invaded we wouldn't of taken it.

Actually,Hamas wants to be sure that the Siege of Gaza is going to be lifted!This is the case that hasn't been mentioned in ceasefire treaty which was provided by Egypt.

Lovelife090994

July 18th, 2014, 05:58 PM

I'm not playing coy-you flat out stated that Israel is surronded by nations who want to destroy it, I provided evidence to show that both Egypt and Jordan are extremely pro-Israeli despite what you think.

You do know that not everyone in Israel is jewish right? And you do know that not every Jew supports Israel?

Would you of accepted a ceasefire in 1941 after Pearl Harbour?

Pearl Harbor? What evidence. You just deny and claim that as evidence. Hamas, Iran, Iraq, the Muslim world, the secular world, and anti-semites are against Israel. Israel has rockets hitting it daily but you don't care about dead Jews. You only care for leftists.

StoppingTime

July 18th, 2014, 08:02 PM

In the past? US defense companies still play a very active role in Israel and it's armed forces. In fact US support has everything to do with this.

And..? The US is an ally of Israel, and they provide (more than enough) military aid to them. Regardless, they're getting the aid, and they're using it for systems such as the Iron Dome, which has protected hundreds of Israeli citizens from rockets coming from Hamas.

What do you think would happen if Iran did this?

I think you're trying to compare this conflict in an oversimplified manor. If Iran began a land invasion of another country, (or whatever it was you're referring to), they would be doing so unprovoked (and no, I'm not going to get into the "Israel started it!" "Hamas started it!" game, there's no reason for that, the conflict is happening despite who "started it"). It's an entirely different situation.

I think the US would be calling for an invasion-the US has blocked nearly have single UN measure about Israel, even small one's about ensuring aid gets in to Gaza they've blocked.

Yeah, they may be because the US isn't exactly an ally of Iran, because the US considers Iran to be a dangerous nation, etc. They don't see this in Israel (whether they're right or wrong is, again, a topic for another thread).

The Israel lobby is huge (watch house of cards episode 2)

Been meaning to start that show, actually :P

Not really, I was asking Austin if he supported the use of terror by Israel in the 1940's, do you support the use of terror by Israeli groups in 1940?

Does it matter in this conflict..?

I'm trying to make people realize that so often in History today's terrorist (Mandela, IRA etc) are tomorrow's peace makers (Hamas would need detoxifying to put it lightly)

So you're saying that Hamas is going to be a force for peace..? How could you possibly make such a claim? They've broken cease fires, have absolutely no desire to stop fighting Israel, have been looking to establish some sort of Sharia-esque state (http://www.ortegaygasset.edu/fog/ver/800/circunstancia/ano-vii---n--18---enero-2009/ensayos/hamas-and-global-jihad--the-islamization-of-the-palestinian-cause), and essentially call for the death (http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397) of Jews/Zionists in their charter...but yeah, they're looking to make peace.

I'll go back to my point about Florida-you can't use leaflets as a justification of collective punishment. US has supported anti-castro terrorists from Florida (see operation mongoose etc), would Cuba have a right to drop leaflets on Miami and say you have 30 minutes to leave because we're targeting the CIA terror groups. Quite rightly I imagine you'd be upset.

And once again, you can't compare this situation to US/Cuba. There's not exactly that much national tension between these two nations, so for the US or Cuba to simply begin an attack on the other is entirely different from the Hamas/IDF conflict.

It's clearly illegal to punish a group of people for the actions of a few

Of course it is, but when Hamas uses (http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Media-death-count-encourages-Hamas-to-use-human-shields-362927) human (http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/16/hamas-spokesman-defends-using-civilians-as-human-shields-video/) shields (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-kohn/operation-human-shield_b_157837.html), things get more complicated.

-for example as I said before the British in the 1970's didn't bomb and kill about 200 Irish civilians every couple of years.

You're examples to the British really aren't that relevant to this conflict..why is that so difficult to understand.
And Hamas is (attempting) to kill Israelis, are they not to blame at all?

Both are in fact very relevant-I'm trying to make us see it from a different side of view. I'm sure most people can accept that western countries have supported terrorism in the past, the actions of the CIA in Cuba is pretty much terrorism (assassinations, poisoning food, blowing up airlines)

I think this is generally agreed upon? Well at least I see it this way.

You both criticize the analogy, but neither of you give a reason why apart from saying that I had no right so say it. I get that it may shock you but Israel is becoming like 1930's germany, and the treatment of minority shows that

You're analogy was grossly oversimplified, and really didn't have much to back it. 1930s Germany was a fascist dictatorship that eventually committed a genocide against 12+ million people. I'm not sure where you're seeing the parallels here?

Sir Suomi

July 18th, 2014, 09:50 PM

-No my entire claim is that your point about the Iron Dome is mute by default because it exists. You said 'imagine if it didn't exist thousands would die etc'' where as it does exist so your going into the Realms of Fantasty

My argument is that Israel would be suffering major civilian casualties would it not be for the Dome. If it wouldn't be for the fact that Israel is under constant attack, it wouldn't be needed, now would it? Israel only is responding to attacks on itself. And eye for an eye might be a flawed philosophy, but from time to time it's what's required.

Whilst the Arabs also committed many a crimes in the 1940's it was part of my wider point about terrorism. As shocking as it is I believe that a nation can, and should have the right to use terrorism against military and political targets to overthrow an oppressive regime in the way that if the Nazis invaded Britain in 1940 I'd support the use of military target based terrorism. If your from the US this will help you greatly

There's a difference in terrorism and guerrilla warfare. Guerrilla warfare is using hit and run tactics against military forces, similar to what the Vietcong did in Vietnam. Terrorism is using methods that are meant to strike more of a psychological attack, using methods such as suicide attacks against military targets and civilian targets.

XKfuS6gfxPY

I'll give you this one, I can understand why America has created "terrorists" in the last decade. But understand, it was never our intention to do this, and we still have done good, by providing better overall infrastructure, healthcare, education, and we kicked out a brutal Taliban-lead government.

III-Problem with Afganistan was that the terrain isn't what the US troops trained for-the British Army was guilty of that as well-we expected to be fighting Soviet Troops in Europe not hardened tribes would used their local knowledge to cross back into Pakistan after shooting us.
True, and our military for the first part of the decade was still fighting like we were attacking an organized army. An M1 Abrams doesn't due too much against an enemy that takes quick pop-shots at your from across the town. In Iraq however that was the complete opposite. We gave those bastards a fun time in Fallujah.

I just don't think bombing a city is going to stop Hamas, as I've said in many other posts you can't stop terrorism with more war,death and destruction. The problem is that there's radical elements within both Hamas and Israel who don't want peace, meaning that both sides are forced into a confrontation.

We're not bombing the whole city. Unlike Hamas, Israel is hitting known military targets that are already engaging Israel, and while Israel is telling the citizens to evacuate, Hamas is encouraging the people to stay and practically act as meat shields to make Israel look like war criminals.

I think now that even people like yourself who could be described as pro-Israel are starting to question if it's wise to shell a beach with children running on it, I get that civilian casualties will happen but if you drop bombs into a civilized area then of course it's going to happen.

I honestly can't defend Israel on the act of hitting the kids on the beach, however. I don't know if someone fucked up and thought they were insurgents or something, but that's not right. But I am defending Israel on it's targeting of military targets.

By the way, they're really not "dropping bombs". They're using precision strikes, which are meant to destroy small areas, such as a house, while keeping the surrounding area mainly unharmed, unlike Hamas, which is simply firing mortars and "dumb" rockets into Israeli civilian centers.

IV That's what I posted a couple of weeks ago about Saudi Arabia, there another middle east country that is not given the scrutiny that it needs. It's not a 'Jewish' stat yet to my knowledge-they want to to make it one though.

Israel defines itself as a Jewish state, and the reason for it's creation, was to have a Jewish state, to ensure another holocaust didn't happen. The Western powers were like "Hey sorry we fucked up by not accepting the Jews that Hitler wanted us to take and ended up sending them to death camps, here's your own little country, have fun." You know they almost set up an "Israel" in my own state, on the Nebraskan Panhandle? I could have been hearing people say "Shalom partner" :rolleyes:

VI-fair statement to make in the 1950's when Israel really was under threat from nation states (Nasser in Eypgt) who could destroy it however they 'won' that series of conflicts meaning that the Israeli state is safe. I'm not asking Israel to stop having a military, I'm asking them to engage in a peace process rather than blockading a city. Israel have 200 nuclear warheads-they don't even need guns to survive anymore.

So basically you're encouraging them to use their nuclear assets? I'd take an artillery barrage over a nuclear bomb, thank you very much.

VII: It just highlights the entire irony of the situation, it's bad for Hamas to do it but he's perfectly fine with his CIA friends doing it to Yemen. The problem with Obama is that he promised radical change but has largely failed to deliver in Foreign Policy. Like Israel the US has people pulling strings (congressmen, defense companies, lobbyists)

That's why we need to get me in office. Vote Heikkinen 2033 :P

Harry Smith

July 19th, 2014, 05:18 AM

And..? The US is an ally of Israel, and they provide (more than enough) military aid to them. Regardless, they're getting the aid, and they're using it for systems such as the Iron Dome, which has protected hundreds of Israeli citizens from rockets coming from Hamas.

I think you're trying to compare this conflict in an oversimplified manor. If Iran began a land invasion of another country, (or whatever it was you're referring to), they would be doing so unprovoked (and no, I'm not going to get into the "Israel started it!" "Hamas started it!" game, there's no reason for that, the conflict is happening despite who "started it"). It's an entirely different situation.

Yeah, they may be because the US isn't exactly an ally of Iran, because the US considers Iran to be a dangerous nation, etc. They don't see this in Israel (whether they're right or wrong is, again, a topic for another thread).

Been meaning to start that show, actually :P

Does it matter in this conflict..?

So you're saying that Hamas is going to be a force for peace..? How could you possibly make such a claim? They've broken cease fires, have absolutely no desire to stop fighting Israel, have been looking to establish some sort of Sharia-esque state (http://www.ortegaygasset.edu/fog/ver/800/circunstancia/ano-vii---n--18---enero-2009/ensayos/hamas-and-global-jihad--the-islamization-of-the-palestinian-cause), and essentially call for the death (http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397) of Jews/Zionists in their charter...but yeah, they're looking to make peace.

And once again, you can't compare this situation to US/Cuba. There's not exactly that much national tension between these two nations, so for the US or Cuba to simply begin an attack on the other is entirely different from the Hamas/IDF conflict.

Of course it is, but when Hamas uses (http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Media-death-count-encourages-Hamas-to-use-human-shields-362927) human (http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/16/hamas-spokesman-defends-using-civilians-as-human-shields-video/) shields (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-kohn/operation-human-shield_b_157837.html), things get more complicated.

You're examples to the British really aren't that relevant to this conflict..why is that so difficult to understand.
And Hamas is (attempting) to kill Israelis, are they not to blame at all?

I think this is generally agreed upon? Well at least I see it this way.

You're analogy was grossly oversimplified, and really didn't have much to back it. 1930s Germany was a fascist dictatorship that eventually committed a genocide against 12+ million people. I'm not sure where you're seeing the parallels here?

My argument is that Israel would be suffering major civilian casualties would it not be for the Dome. If it wouldn't be for the fact that Israel is under constant attack, it wouldn't be needed, now would it? Israel only is responding to attacks on itself. And eye for an eye might be a flawed philosophy, but from time to time it's what's required.

There's a difference in terrorism and guerrilla warfare. Guerrilla warfare is using hit and run tactics against military forces, similar to what the Vietcong did in Vietnam. Terrorism is using methods that are meant to strike more of a psychological attack, using methods such as suicide attacks against military targets and civilian targets.

I'll give you this one, I can understand why America has created "terrorists" in the last decade. But understand, it was never our intention to do this, and we still have done good, by providing better overall infrastructure, healthcare, education, and we kicked out a brutal Taliban-lead government.

True, and our military for the first part of the decade was still fighting like we were attacking an organized army. An M1 Abrams doesn't due too much against an enemy that takes quick pop-shots at your from across the town. In Iraq however that was the complete opposite. We gave those bastards a fun time in Fallujah.

We're not bombing the whole city. Unlike Hamas, Israel is hitting known military targets that are already engaging Israel, and while Israel is telling the citizens to evacuate, Hamas is encouraging the people to stay and practically act as meat shields to make Israel look like war criminals.

I honestly can't defend Israel on the act of hitting the kids on the beach, however. I don't know if someone fucked up and thought they were insurgents or something, but that's not right. But I am defending Israel on it's targeting of military targets.

By the way, they're really not "dropping bombs". They're using precision strikes, which are meant to destroy small areas, such as a house, while keeping the surrounding area mainly unharmed, unlike Hamas, which is simply firing mortars and "dumb" rockets into Israeli civilian centers.

Israel defines itself as a Jewish state, and the reason for it's creation, was to have a Jewish state, to ensure another holocaust didn't happen. The Western powers were like "Hey sorry we fucked up by not accepting the Jews that Hitler wanted us to take and ended up sending them to death camps, here's your own little country, have fun." You know they almost set up an "Israel" in my own state, on the Nebraskan Panhandle? I could have been hearing people say "Shalom partner" :rolleyes:

So basically you're encouraging them to use their nuclear assets? I'd take an artillery barrage over a nuclear bomb, thank you very much.

That's why we need to get me in office. Vote Heikkinen 2033 :P

Israel is responding in an extremely excessive manor, I'm going to try and merge this into several different arguments. The problem is that these 'precision' strikes simply aren't working.

We've had 300 civilian casualties, with 80% of them being children. That's not acceptable, and as I've said before it's coming close to collective punishment-you can't punish an entire region for the actions for one group. I'd argue that the issuing of warnings is also pretty flawed-once you get the warning your only choice is to leave your house and go out onto the street-somewhere that you don't want to be during a airstrike. These precision strikes, as was said before don't seem to be that precise.

The whole problem with the Jewish state-no-one seems to remember this is that the UN didn't approve it at the start-we had a plan to create two different states in 1947 but then Israel declared that they were a nation which caused an entire shit-storm and then lead to the war. Both parties were equally guilty of that, but the problem is that Israel didn't allow a second state to form, and they still haven't.

I think you can both admit that there needs to be a radical solution to this, we can't continue with this. Your both bringing up the Hamas rocket strikes (that rightly need to stop) but you're ignoring the treatment of Hamas citizens by the Israelis'. I posted it on the other thread about how the Israeli's have baasically occupied and abused Gaza for the last 50 years, they've cut off water supplies, cut off electricity, imprisoned children, assaulted journalists.

That was my whole point about Cuba/Northern Ireland/South Africa. The people of Palestine have been treated appalling for the last 50 years, and you can appreciate why they would have to react in this way-in the same way that even 200 years after the war of independence the US still celebrates breaking from the British. We need to see this in a much bigger picture-which is that Israel are breaking nearly every single international law in Gaza.

I do believe some form of peace can be made-we made peace with the IRA who tried to kill our prime ministers in open daylight twice, they killed the Queen's cousin and they all said that they would never surrender to any peace deal. We managed to sign a peace deal in 1992 with the Oslo Accords

http://thepowerofbeliefblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/robert_kennedy_there_are_those_poster-p228214902786341889t5wm_400.jpg

You only care for leftists.

yeah ok

StoppingTime

July 19th, 2014, 08:19 PM

Israel is responding in an extremely excessive manor, I'm going to try and merge this into several different arguments. The problem is that these 'precision' strikes simply aren't working.

They're not "working" because, (as confirmed by UNWRA) Hamas has been found to hide rockets in schools, and as reported by the IDF on multiple occasions, have been reported to hide them in hospitals, mosques, etc.

We've had 300 civilian casualties, with 80% of them being children.

Because Hamas doesn't care about the citizens of Gaza (the human shielding and whatnot..all of which you conveniently haven't mentioned. Have you yet to realize this?

That's not acceptable, and as I've said before it's coming close to collective punishment-you can't punish an entire region for the actions for one group.

Hamas is firing rockets into Israel in attempt to punish them - an entire region (well, at least as far as their rockets can reach) - for the actions of "one group," in this analogy. But that's acceptable?

I'd argue that the issuing of warnings is also pretty flawed-once you get the warning your only choice is to leave your house and go out onto the street-somewhere that you don't want to be during a airstrike.

Well if Hamas cared for its citizens at all, it would have at least attempted to build bomb shelters (which can be found all throughout Israel), and therefore greatly reducing civilian casualty. But are they doing this?

These precision strikes, as was said before don't seem to be that precise.

I've addressed this from multiple different angles in my above posts. Also, it's important to understand that the population density of Gaza is 5046/km^2, over a 360 km^2 area. There's not a lot of space regardless of the fact that targets are often placed near civilians.

The whole problem with the Jewish state-no-one seems to remember this is that the UN didn't approve it at the start-

And then it was admitted to the UN in 1949, so, there's that too.

we had a plan to create two different states in 1947 but then Israel declared that they were a nation which caused an entire shit-storm and then lead to the war. Both parties were equally guilty of that, but the problem is that Israel didn't allow a second state to form, and they still haven't.

And that has very little to do with this conflict. That's a problem that, as you correctly mentioned, traces back to Israel's independence - and that isn't what this conflict seems to be about.

I think you can both admit that there needs to be a radical solution to this, we can't continue with this. Your both bringing up the Hamas rocket strikes (that rightly need to stop) but you're ignoring the treatment of Hamas citizens by the Israelis'.

And you're ignorant of the treatment of Palestinians (they're not "Hamas citizens") by the Hamas. You've yet to even address that.

That was my whole point about Cuba/Northern Ireland/South Africa. The people of Palestine have been treated appalling for the last 50 years, and you can appreciate why they would have to react in this way-in the same way that even 200 years after the war of independence the US still celebrates breaking from the British. We need to see this in a much bigger picture-which is that Israel are breaking nearly every single international law in Gaza.

And the same argument can be made by saying that Hamas has outright refused any recent cease fire negotiations (along with other things), meaning they too are endangering their own people.

I do believe some form of peace can be made-we made peace with the IRA who tried to kill our prime ministers in open daylight twice, they killed the Queen's cousin and they all said that they would never surrender to any peace deal. We managed to sign a peace deal in 1992 with the Oslo Accords

This isn't a war between the IRA and England, and it never will be. The two are not one and the same.

Harry Smith

July 20th, 2014, 05:56 AM

They're not "working" because, (as confirmed by UNWRA) Hamas has been found to hide rockets in schools, and as reported by the IDF on multiple occasions, have been reported to hide them in hospitals, mosques, etc.

Because Hamas doesn't care about the citizens of Gaza (the human shielding and whatnot..all of which you conveniently haven't mentioned. Have you yet to realize this?

Hamas is firing rockets into Israel in attempt to punish them - an entire region (well, at least as far as their rockets can reach) - for the actions of "one group," in this analogy. But that's acceptable?

Well if Hamas cared for its citizens at all, it would have at least attempted to build bomb shelters (which can be found all throughout Israel), and therefore greatly reducing civilian casualty. But are they doing this?

I've addressed this from multiple different angles in my above posts. Also, it's important to understand that the population density of Gaza is 5046/km^2, over a 360 km^2 area. There's not a lot of space regardless of the fact that targets are often placed near civilians.

And then it was admitted to the UN in 1949, so, there's that too.

And that has very little to do with this conflict. That's a problem that, as you correctly mentioned, traces back to Israel's independence - and that isn't what this conflict seems to be about.

And you're ignorant of the treatment of Palestinians (they're not "Hamas citizens") by the Hamas. You've yet to even address that.

And the same argument can be made by saying that Hamas has outright refused any recent cease fire negotiations (along with other things), meaning they too are endangering their own people.

This isn't a war between the IRA and England, and it never will be. The two are not one and the same.

I-Please tell me what do Hamas have to do with an air strike on the beach? The one that this thread was created for? Hamas had nothing to do with that beach, in fact it overlooked a hotel where a large number of journalists were staying. I've yet to see you denounce the air strikes on the beach that killed 4 children, do you denounce this strike on the beach?

II-I honestly thought I mentioned that in my post to Austin, and as I would of said Hamas need to stop using human shields, I think it's completely immoral and is most likely illegal.

III--In a purely legalistic sense, Hamas isn't the government of Palenstine. That's run by Mahmoud Abbas ( a man who Hamas don't support) meaning that under international law the buck stops with him. It's also not in a legal defintion collective punishment due to the fact that nearly all the rockets get shot down and I think only 1 Israeli civilian has died so far (1 too many though) It's not just about rockets though or air strikes-it's the whole host of other actions that have happened (cutting of water, imprisoning children etc) Hamas in a legal sense don't have the resources, funding or money to carry out collective punishment.

IV Lol Hamas aren't the legal government-that falls down to the the Palestine authority, and you wonder why they don't build them?

You may of noticed that Gaza has been under siege for the last 9 years,they don't have enough water (UN reports have said they have below the minimum required in refugee camps) They don't have enough hospitals, they don't have a developed economy, they don't have the infrastructure. The city is under siege-it's impossible to build on such a large scale. Look what a Colonel from the Israeli Army has said....

If there is a direct hit … the shelter will not stand,” says Lt. Col. Avi Bitzur (res.),

It’s too much expense, too much to do it now. You cannot give now a shelter for 1.5 million people,” he says, estimating that it would require billions of shekels and at least five to six years.

It would also require a great deal of cement. Israel has restricted the import of cement for years

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2014/0717/Why-Gaza-doesn-t-have-bomb-shelters-video

[I]V-So your argument to the wide spread death for civilians is-eh their city is too small it's not our fault. Logic dictates that if your going to kit civilian targets that maybe you shouldn't bomb the city, just maybe? Your own view is endorsing a war crime, it's clear that...

Civilian structures such as residential homes become lawful targets only when they are being used for military purposes,” the report states. “Attacks targeting civilians or civilian property are unlawful, as are attacks that do not or cannot discriminate between civilians and combatants

VI -Yes, it signed up in 1949 under the premise of

Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,

Peace loving-7 years later it attacked Egypt in order to secure water rights

VII-it's all about that in fact, it's the one thing the Zionists don't like talking about. Palestine was suppose to be an independent country-we've been waiting since 1947 for it to happen but Israel has blocked it. We need a second state but I'm sure you don't want that-who cares about those filthy arabs?

VIII-I've addressed it on both threads, I've said Hamas need to detoxify and that it needs to stop the missile attacks. I've yet to see you denounce the cutting of water, the destruction of homes, the imprisoning of children (a note you didn't reply to after I gave evidence). Israel have illegally occupied Gaza since 1967-I'll ask again-what did the Jews do in the 1940's to create Israel? They fought back. The people of Palestine have the right to use force to secure there rights (in the same way that the Israelis' did in 1948)

Israeli logic is pretty much-hey we used terrorism to create our nation, but don't you even think about trying it. Israel is pretty much turning into the US on drugs. Your only response to the wider links is to say it's not relevant when in fact it's very relevant..

As I said to Austin in my first post I'd be more understanding if Israel was the switzerland of the Middle East, I'd say 'okay you've got a point' but for the last 50 years' they've ignored every single international law, invaded countries without any right, occupied land they have no right to occupy, arrest children and drag them into Israel, develop nuclear weapons whilst stopping Syria/Iran from doing it.

I'd be supportive if you wanted to end the Siege of Gaza since 2005-but I think you're one of those Israeli supporters who would support Israel when the mushroom cloud looms over Gaza. We need to stop Israel and it's warmonger ways, before it's too late

StoppingTime

July 20th, 2014, 08:46 PM

First, :arrow: ROTW.

I-Please tell me what do Hamas have to do with an air strike on the beach? The one that this thread was created for? Hamas had nothing to do with that beach, in fact it overlooked a hotel where a large number of journalists were staying. I've yet to see you denounce the air strikes on the beach that killed 4 children, do you denounce this strike on the beach?

I actually did, yes. In my first post.

They weren't given any, and it was an absolutely horrendous act carried out by the IDF. Whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant - it happened, and they should be reprimanded (which is another topic entirely).

II-I honestly thought I mentioned that in my post to Austin, and as I would of said Hamas need to stop using human shields, I think it's completely immoral and is most likely illegal.

Lovely that we can agree on something, hm?

III--In a purely legalistic sense, Hamas isn't the government of Palenstine.

(Which is why I said "de facto government"...also in my first post). Regardless though (and I think you know this) they're the acting government, the ones firing rockets, etc.

That's run by Mahmoud Abbas ( a man who Hamas don't support) meaning that under international law the buck stops with him.

You're trying to get out of this argument purely on basically meaningless logistical manners. You can't pin all the violence on Abaas simply because he's "in charge." I'm fairly certain even the UN realizes that he's not behind this.

It's also not in a legal defintion collective punishment due to the fact that nearly all the rockets get shot down

..and? They're heading for Israel, it just so happens Israel actually cares about its citizens.

and I think only 1 Israeli civilian has died so far (1 too many though)

Numbers really shouldn't matter, the intent of Hamas is to kill civilians (and I believe it's more than one by now, but I'm not entirely sure).

It's not just about rockets though or air strikes-it's the whole host of other actions that have happened (cutting of water, imprisoning children etc) Hamas in a legal sense don't have the resources, funding or money to carry out collective punishment.

Imprisonment of children isn't relevant in this conflict.
Israel actually repaired Hamas' electricity after Hamas took it out, not to mention setting up a clinic for Palestinian civilians who are told to stay in their homes by Hamas.

IV Lol Hamas aren't the legal government-that falls down to the the Palestine authority, and you wonder why they don't build them?

So even though they're essentially the acting "government" i.e. the ones who are fighting against Israel, the ones who are using Palestinians as shields, etc, you truly expect the "official" government with little power to just step in their way and stop it?

You may of noticed that Gaza has been under siege for the last 9 years,they don't have enough water (UN reports have said they have below the minimum required in refugee camps) They don't have enough hospitals, they don't have a developed economy, they don't have the infrastructure. The city is under siege-it's impossible to build on such a large scale. Look what a Colonel from the Israeli Army has said....

While this is a problem, at the same time, it isn't Israel's job to build Gaza. Hamas is somehow able to have a steady supply of rockets/missiles/etc, so they're getting that in somehow? You really think they can't get anything else in, too?

it's clear that...

And what about when these civilian targets are where rockets are being shot from by Hamas? Then what?

Peace loving-7 years later it attacked Egypt in order to

And yet, it's done much more for its citizens that Hamas/Palestine/whatever you're calling Gaza now will ever do for their own, despite some of the Israeli blockades (which,as mentioned, I'm not in agreement with).

We need a second state but I'm sure you don't want that-who cares about those filthy arabs?

Where did I ever say I didn't want Palestine to become an independent state? I think that in their current state there's no way they can manage independence, but I support it whenever they can actually pull themselves together, stop using human shields, you know.

VIII-I've addressed it on both threads, I've said Hamas need to detoxify and that it needs to stop the missile attacks. I've yet to see you denounce the cutting of water, the destruction of homes,

Again, I've covered this in earlier posts (like I quoted earlier here), and above as well.

the imprisoning of children (a note you didn't reply to after I gave evidence).

I wasn't denying it before you gave evidence, implying that once you provided it, like you, I'd condemn it and want it to be investigated by the UN/appropriate channels.

Israel have illegally occupied Gaza since 1967-I'll ask again-what did the Jews do in the 1940's to create Israel? They fought back. The people of Palestine have the right to use force to secure there rights (in the same way that the Israelis' did in 1948)

(You do realize there were Jews in Israel before the 1940s, right? right?)
That aside, they do have that right, but do you honestly believe that's what this conflict is about? Securing rights?

I'd be supportive if you wanted to end the Siege of Gaza since 2005-but I think you're one of those Israeli supporters who would support Israel when the mushroom cloud looms over Gaza.

Well I'm not...so there's that misconception.

We need to stop Israel and it's warmonger ways, before it's too late

I get the feeling you feel this way about anyone and everyone that isn't the UK or Switzerland (seeing as you've used them as examples endless times throughout this thread, while calling the US and other countries pure evil and whatnot).

Harry Smith

July 21st, 2014, 02:50 AM

First, :arrow: ROTW.

I actually did, yes. In my first post.

Lovely that we can agree on something, hm?

(Which is why I said "de facto government"...also in my first post). Regardless though (and I think you know this) they're the acting government, the ones firing rockets, etc.

You're trying to get out of this argument purely on basically meaningless logistical manners. You can't pin all the violence on Abaas simply because he's "in charge." I'm fairly certain even the UN realizes that he's not behind this.

..and? They're heading for Israel, it just so happens Israel actually cares about its citizens.

Numbers really shouldn't matter, the intent of Hamas is to kill civilians (and I believe it's more than one by now, but I'm not entirely sure).

Imprisonment of children isn't relevant in this conflict.
Israel actually repaired Hamas' electricity after Hamas took it out, not to mention setting up a clinic for Palestinian civilians who are told to stay in their homes by Hamas.

So even though they're essentially the acting "government" i.e. the ones who are fighting against Israel, the ones who are using Palestinians as shields, etc, you truly expect the "official" government with little power to just step in their way and stop it?

While this is a problem, at the same time, it isn't Israel's job to build Gaza. Hamas is somehow able to have a steady supply of rockets/missiles/etc, so they're getting that in somehow? You really think they can't get anything else in, too?

And what about when these civilian targets are where rockets are being shot from by Hamas? Then what?

And yet, it's done much more for its citizens that Hamas/Palestine/whatever you're calling Gaza now will ever do for their own, despite some of the Israeli blockades (which,as mentioned, I'm not in agreement with).

Where did I ever say I didn't want Palestine to become an independent state? I think that in their current state there's no way they can manage independence, but I support it whenever they can actually pull themselves together, stop using human shields, you know.

Again, I've covered this in earlier posts (like I quoted earlier here), and above as well.

I wasn't denying it before you gave evidence, implying that once you provided it, like you, I'd condemn it and want it to be investigated by the UN/appropriate channels.

(You do realize there were Jews in Israel before the 1940s, right? right?)
That aside, they do have that right, but do you honestly believe that's what this conflict is about? Securing rights?

Well I'm not...so there's that misconception.

I get the feeling you feel this way about anyone and everyone that isn't the UK or Switzerland (seeing as you've used them as examples endless times throughout this thread, while calling the US and other countries pure evil and whatnot).

I'd also argue that the intent of Israel is to kill civilians, god knows why they want to do that. The vast majority of people in the Military will tell you that if you send in tanks, armored cars and troops into an urban area then civilians will die-in fact entire families have been killed so far.

Oh they set up a clinic? Maybe they shouldn't of shot them in the first place.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/18/371841/israel-bombs-more-hospitals-in-gaza/
The Israeli ambassador to the US has held a question and answer session on Twitter in which he said Israel had “the right” to carry out missile strikes on hospitals

I do yes, but once again you didn't address the juice of the point.

They can't build any bomb shelters because they don't have any money, the evidence I presented said it would spend 5-6 years. Considering Israel tend to do this every 2-3 years then Palestine will struggle. Likewise this popped into my head...

While this is a problem, at the same time, it isn't Israel's job to build Gaza

Since Israel occupied Gaza from 1967, denied water and other vital services and basically treated it like a toilet I'd argue that Israel's job is to build Gaza, for the people of Gaza considering they caused all the problems. Just like after WW2 we rebuild Germany since A) They had no money B) We did it

And what about when these civilian targets are where rockets are being shot from by Hamas? Then what

The majority of civilian houses aren't destroyed because of rockets. It's because of this

Israel has claimed that these attacks on civilian homes occur because they are used as “command and control” centers by Hamas and other groups–but Human Rights Watch dismissed those claims, saying there was no evidence to justify them.

And yet, it's done much more for its citizens that Hamas/Palestine/whatever you're calling Gaza now will ever do for their own, despite some of the Israeli blockades (which,as mentioned, I'm not in agreement with).

No it hasn't-occupying a country, forcing it's people to move in and then building on it is a war crime and is not better for the civilians. I can't believe you have the audicity after seeing a week's worth of air strikes to say that Israel have helped the people in Palenstine. Israel just know how to do PR-like when you see soldiers handing out sweets to children. It's all PR

I think that in their current state there's no way they can manage independence, but I support it whenever they can actually pull themselves together, stop using human shields, you know.

With UN support, and funding from the World Bank I'm sure they can. I'd be more than happy to move foreign aid money from Pakistan to Palestine. It's kinda catch 22 for the them though because Israel keep expanding with their settlements meaning that soon they wont exist

The big problem here is that Israel are just as guilty

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-says-un-report-2003668

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/blogs/politics/12888-israel-not-hamas-turns-palestinians-into-human-shields

You do realize there were Jews in Israel before the 1940s, right? right?)
That aside, they do have that right, but do you honestly believe that's what this conflict is about? Securing rights?

I do, but they were in a much lower number

By 1948, the population had risen to 1,900,000, of whom 68% were Arabs, and 32% were Jews (

I believe that's what it formed from, it's been cycle around a couple of times but I feel that the people of Palenstine still want to live in a world where Israeli bombs don't crash down every 2 years. I know that fundemental rights are being breached by Israel and whether you support hem or not that's not acceptable

I get the feeling you feel this way about anyone and everyone that isn't the UK or Switzerland (seeing as you've used them as examples endless times throughout this thread, while calling the US and other countries pure evil and whatnot).

Do people even read what I post? I've been opposed to British action in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Russia.

Not pure evil-just extremely illegal and immoral-that's what US foreign policy is, likewise I can appreciate that in some cases the international community can do well e.g Sierra leone, Bosnia

Look-I just wanted this part to stand out. We both want the violence to end right? And we both want Israel to remain a secure and safe nation. Do you really think you can stop Hamas and Palenstine by bombing it? History has shown that the only way to try and deal with problems like this is by diplomacy. For once I actually agree with John Kerry on Foreign Policy

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/israel-apartheid-state-peace-talks-john-kerry

Vlerchan

July 21st, 2014, 10:20 AM

Numbers really shouldn't matter, the intent of Hamas is to kill civilians.
It's not, really.

Hamas has, in the last decade or so, over about 15,000 strikes, killed roughly 30 Isreali civilians - it's killed 2 in the most recent conflict.It's commits these strikes, not because it feels killing a few civilians will get it far (so, it's primary intent is not to kill civilians), but rather because it is looking for Isreali to strike back, disproportionately and with maximum emotional impact for the Western audiences at home, making Isreal look like an big-bad aggressor (a success, if you ask me): Hamas realizes that it's only by winning the propaganda war that it has a chance of a sovereign Palestinian state. It's what the Kosovan Seperatists did in the 90s.

Isreal, I presume, is just too pig-headed or self-righteous to realise this too: restraint on its part is the best path to take in this instance: most pro-Palestinian individuals are such not because they agree with Hamas et. al. vision of a nationalist-islamist state, but rather because they disagree with Isreal's over-the-top reaction to the 'crisis'. I believe that Isreal should start de-escalating, or at least stop with the ridiculous revenge strikes, and allow Hamas follow: if Isreal wants to remain unified then it's going to need the goodwill of the international community on its side, which includes the good-intentioned liberals that flock to the 'Free Palestine' camp.

Though, personally, I believe that Gaza should be given their state: it seems the best medium- to long-term course of action for the whole region: if the new Free Palestine decides to engage Isreal then the UN can step in.

StoppingTime

July 21st, 2014, 10:32 AM

It's not, really.

Hamas has, in the last decade or so, over about 15,000 strikes, killed roughly 30 Isreali civilians - it's killed 2 in the most recent conflict.It's commits these strikes, not because it feels killing a few civilians will get it far (so, it's primary intent is not to kill civilians),

At the same time, it is an intent. It may not be their primary intent (and I didn't claim it was, actually), but when a group denounces the existence of a group of people in their own charter, it'd seem unlikely to me that they're at least trying.

but rather because it is looking for Isreali to strike back, disproportionately and with maximum emotional impact for the Western audiences at home, making Isreal look like an big-bad aggressor (a success, if you ask me): Hamas realizes that it's only by winning the propaganda war that it has a chance of a sovereign Palestinian state. It's what the Kosovan Seperatists did in the 90s.

I agree with you here. Granted I'm not really sure what support they think they're winning as I've yet to see anyone, well, step in and help (though this conflict isn't over, who knows what'll happen in a few weeks).

Isreal, I presume, is just too pig-headed or self-righteous to realise this too: restraint on its part is the best path to take in this instance:

I think they're well aware of what Hamas is trying to do. At the same time, would your recommended course of action simply be to act defensively? Shoot down Hamas' attempted strikes, and nothing else? If Hamas is truly in this for the attention of the world, as you said, if Israel simply stopped responding to them, how do they gain the world's attention?

Though, personally, I believe that Gaza should be given their state: it seems the best medium- to long-term course of action for the whole region: if the new Free Palestine decides to engage Isreal then the UN can step in.

What makes you so sure the UN would just "step in?" Have they "stepped in" in the Syrian civil war and ended it? What about other conflicts? I don't think depending on the UN to "protect" Israel from a potentially aggressive free Palestine would be the best course of action.

Harry Smith

July 21st, 2014, 11:28 AM

What makes you so sure the UN would just "step in?" Have they "stepped in" in the Syrian civil war and ended it? What about other conflicts? I don't think depending on the UN to "protect" Israel from a potentially aggressive free Palestine would be the best course of action.

Syria is different because Palenstine attacking Israel would be a member state attacking another-in this respect the UN has a lot of power (Iraq Kuwait 1990, UK Falklands) with the western lobby on their side the Israelis' would have a great deal of power to repulse them, and would likely get UN backing. I get that the UN look weak in occasions but they would have much greater power if it was a nation state attacking.

Tl;DR:UN get involved if it's a war between two nations states (unless one is on the council)

I'd also argue that Israel has such a strong Military presence that it would be able to repulse any attack from a nation state-look what happened in 1967, they managed to take out Egypt and Syria. It seems to be a cold war myth that Israel would struggle to defend itself.

What's more likely-as Vlerhcan said is that if Israel loses international support it's going to follow the route of North Korea, South Africa and Iran-it will be either collapse into state maintained chaos or it will be forced to reform

Vlerchan

July 21st, 2014, 02:08 PM

At the same time, it is an intent.
Let me put it this way:

Hamas doesn't care if it kills Isreali civilians in its strikes as long as the over-the-top reactions keep coming because it's the propaganda war that it seeks to win - and dead children make great propaganda pieces.

I wasn't trying to refute your point as much as latch onto the conversation though.

Granted I'm not really sure what support they think they're winning as I've yet to see anyone, well, step in and help.
media -> public -> government

It's not help it wants though, or at least not direct help, as much as the international community placing pressure on Isreal to negotiate.

At the same time, would your recommended course of action simply be to act defensively?
Not exactly.

I'd be fine with not-so-over-the-top retaliations (if Hamas doesn't start co-operating), though I believe that Isreal should ceasefire and open up negotiations with the Palestinians: listen to their demands, and start discussing movements towards greater Palestinian autonomy. The UN would work alongside both parties throughout the entire process.

If Hamas is truly in this for the attention of the world, as you said, if Israel simply stopped responding to them, how do they gain the world's attention?
It seeks attention (public sympathy, specifically) as a means of forcing negotiations.

What makes you so sure the UN would just "step in?"
A sane administration would outline a guidelines for UN-mandated action to take place if aggression occured: there'd be a precedent set in place during negotiations.

Have they "stepped in" in the Syrian civil war and ended it?
No.

Though that's because it's violent Islamists versus oppressive Dictator. There's no identifiable "good guy", and its better to just leave them kill each other. There's other political factors at play too, though that's the most problematic.

I don't think depending on the UN to "protect" Israel from a potentially aggressive free Palestine would be the best course of action.
Isreal wouldn't need the UN to protect it. It has a rather impressive military, and would make quick work of an invading Palestinian force.

The UN would probably just end up being an arbitrator if something happened.

---

I'm open to other suggestions if people want to start offering them.

StoppingTime

July 21st, 2014, 10:34 PM

Let me put it this way:

Hamas doesn't care if it kills Isreali civilians in its strikes as long as the over-the-top reactions keep coming because it's the propaganda war that it seeks to win - and dead children make great propaganda pieces.

I wasn't trying to refute your point as much as latch onto the conversation though.

I certainly agree here - but if Hamas doesn't strike Israeli citizens in order to warrant the over-the-top attacks, then it's unlikely Israel would be so rash in its retaliation.

media -> public -> government

It's not help it wants though, or at least not direct help, as much as the international community placing pressure on Isreal to negotiate.

you're right - help wasn't the right word. Recognition would probably fit better. However, they've attacked Israel in the past and the US, which of course is a notorious supporter of Israel, has constantly shot down UN negotiation attempts with Israel, so who are they after, in your opinion?

I'd be fine with not-so-over-the-top retaliations (if Hamas doesn't start co-operating), though I believe that Isreal should ceasefire and open up negotiations with the Palestinians: listen to their demands, and start discussing movements towards greater Palestinian autonomy. The UN would work alongside both parties throughout the entire process.

They've tried cease fires before (even in this conflict, at least once), and Hamas breaks them. Has Hamas actually made a list of said "demands" it wants Israel to honor in this conflict? (I'm genuinely interested here - since I'm unaware of any of these actions).

It seeks attention (public sympathy, specifically) as a means of forcing negotiations.

Right, but if there was a cease fire (meaning no Israeli rockets killing hundreds of civilians) who would feel sympathetic towards Hamas?

A sane administration would outline a guidelines for UN-mandated action to take place if aggression occured: there'd be a precedent set in place during negotiations.

And neither Israel nor Hamas has outlined such guidelines and unless the US lets up on backing Israel a bit, I doubt they will...and I find it even less likely that Hamas would be interested.

Though that's because it's violent Islamists versus oppressive Dictator. There's no identifiable "good guy", and its better to just leave them kill each other. There's other political factors at play too, though that's the most problematic.

That's a good point. I chose the Syrian conflict since it's the only other major one in the Middle East that I even found remotely comparable (though it's a stretch) to the Israel/Gaza one. I just don't personally think depending on the UN to "step in" in case Palestine attacks is really how a newly sovereign nation should come into existence.

Isreal wouldn't need the UN to protect it. It has a rather impressive military, and would make quick work of an invading Palestinian force.

..Maybe they would? This is all getting more hypothetical and off topic though, so I'm not sure it's best to spend too much time on it.r if something happened.

Korashk

July 22nd, 2014, 06:46 AM

Israel has rockets hitting it daily but you don't care about dead Jews. You only care for leftists.
Well, let's be real here. There were basically no dead Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel) because of those rockets. The casualty list was like 30 people dead in half as many years after over 15,000 RPG and mortar attacks by Hamas.

Meanwhile Israel launches missiles at Palestine and have killed thousands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_strikes_and_Palestinian_casualties_in_Operation_Protective_Edge) .

These stats are of course pre-invasion.

Lovelife090994

July 22nd, 2014, 11:48 AM

Well, let's be real here. There were basically no dead Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel) because of those rockets. The casualty list was like 30 people dead in half as many years after over 15,000 RPG and mortar attacks by Hamas.

Meanwhile Israel launches missiles at Palestine and have killed thousands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_strikes_and_Palestinian_casualties_in_Operation_Protective_Edge) .

These stats are of course pre-invasion.

So by your logic we should stand by and watch Israel be wiped off the map while thousands or millions die because Palestine is better in some way? That won't work either. Israel has had causalities way more than just 30. Hamas keeps breaking any ceasefires, ignores warnings, and uses its citizens as body shields.

Harry Smith

July 22nd, 2014, 12:03 PM

So by your logic we should stand by and watch Israel be wiped off the map while thousands or millions die because Palestine is better in some way? That won't work either. Israel has had causalities way more than just 30. Hamas keeps breaking any ceasefires, ignores warnings, and uses its citizens as body shields.

Israel won't get wiped off the map, they've got such a large army along with WMD's meaning that the only nation that has the power to do that is the US.We've talked about this before, I know you don't like using evidence and facts, and logic but Israel will not be wiped off the map by a couple of muslims who've managed to make a rocket

Israel has broken ceasefires, ignored international warnings and used civilans as human shields. What do you have to say about the 500 dead civilans who were murdered by Israel? I've yet to see you condemn the murder of 4 children on a beach-the whole purpose of this thread

No where in Korashs' post did he say that Palenstine is more important-something that is clear is that you have a hatred towards muslims and I very much believe that is influencing your decision.

No doubt you'll now call me some names and stuff, so yeah have fun and bring your storm

Southside

July 22nd, 2014, 01:26 PM

So by your logic we should stand by and watch Israel be wiped off the map while thousands or millions die because Palestine is better in some way? That won't work either. Israel has had causalities way more than just 30. Hamas keeps breaking any ceasefires, ignores warnings, and uses its citizens as body shields.

Stop the BS..Israel cant and wont be "wiped off the map" by anyone

Most of the time when Hamas fires rockets they land in some open field or get intercepted by the Iron Dome system. Sure, Israel has had civilian causalities but nothing like the brutal onslaught of that the IDF is inflicting on the Gaza Strip. Im not saying that to justify what Hamas is doing, I consider them a terrorist organization but Israel's reaction to a couple rockets landing in a open field is very aggressive. As I said many times before, it has been a civilian killed in almost every armed conflict in the history of warfare, sadly that's just the toll of war.

I keep seeing on the news these Israeli politicians saying they don't want to kill civilians but when you drop a bomb in a area as densely populated as the Gaza Strip its bound to be civilian causalities. Nethuayaho or whatever the fuck his name says that they've asked civilians to evacuate areas where the IDF are going to operate. How can you evacuate and its no safe places to go in the Gaza strip?

Israel is the aggressor in this conflict, I don't care how many missiles Hamas fires.

Lovelife090994

July 22nd, 2014, 01:31 PM

Israel won't get wiped off the map, they've got such a large army along with WMD's meaning that the only nation that has the power to do that is the US.We've talked about this before, I know you don't like using evidence and facts, and logic but Israel will not be wiped off the map by a couple of muslims who've managed to make a rocket

Israel has broken ceasefires, ignored international warnings and used civilans as human shields. What do you have to say about the 500 dead civilans who were murdered by Israel? I've yet to see you condemn the murder of 4 children on a beach-the whole purpose of this thread

No where in Korashs' post did he say that Palenstine is more important-something that is clear is that you have a hatred towards muslims and I very much believe that is influencing your decision.

No doubt you'll now call me some names and stuff, so yeah have fun and bring your storm

How dare you insult my intellegence. I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam and all organized religion that encourages hatred and destruction. You brought the storm, I'm bringing the sunlight. You and I both know that Hamas keeps breaking ceasefire and keeps attacking Israel. You obviously hate Jews and have a bias to Israel and any non UK country.

Southside

July 22nd, 2014, 01:38 PM

How dare you insult my intellegence. I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam and all organized religion that encourages hatred and destruction. You brought the storm, I'm bringing the sunlight. You and I both know that Hamas keeps breaking ceasefire and keeps attacking Israel. You obviously hate Jews and have a bias to Israel and any non UK country.

Harry and myself have a similar stance on Israel...We don't hate Jews or have a "bias" towards Israel. We simply want Israel to stop breaking international laws by settling on occupied territories. We want billions of our tax dollars to stop going to Israel to fund their war machine. Hamas wont stop their rocket fire until Israel pulls out and stops their attacks on civilians. As I said in my previous post, you can not conduct military airstrikes/artillery strikes in a area as densely populated as the Gaza Strip.

Why is it that whenever someone speaks out against Israel they get called Anti-Semitic/Anti-Jewish or a terrorist sympathizer?

Left Now

July 22nd, 2014, 01:39 PM

How dare you insult my intellegence. I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam and all organized religion that encourages hatred and destruction. You brought the storm, I'm bringing the sunlight. You and I both know that Hamas keeps breaking ceasefire and keeps attacking Israel. You obviously hate Jews and have a bias to Israel and any non UK country.

During last years,it has always been Israel which has broken the ceasefires and begun the conflicts,not Hamas nor other resistance organizations in Gaza;and it has always been Israel which has demanded for ceasefire after beginning the conflicts which Israelis themselves have begun.

Is it really this hard to understand that diplomacy doesn't mean "You accept all my conditions and I accept none of yours!"?This is exactly what Israel does when it comes to negotiations and diplomatic solutions.

One of the simplest things which Palestinian side wants is the siege of Gaza to be lifted and won't accept any ceasefire unless Israel accepts this and not begin any other assault on Gaza once again.So why don't Israelis accept this?Is it really this hard for them to accept these terms?

And by the way,Harry doesn't have any bias attitude toward Israel!He only says that Israel has to be stopped,not destroyed!

Korashk

July 22nd, 2014, 01:40 PM

So by your logic we should stand by and watch Israel be wiped off the map while thousands or millions die because Palestine is better in some way?
I don't even know why I'm surprised that you have no idea how to respond rationally. The thousands or millions of dead won't be Israeli, they'd be Palestinian. Palestine is a threat to Israel like a mosquito is a threat to you.

Israel has had causalities way more than just 30.
Well yeah, but I didn't list the number of casualties. I listed the number of dead. Which as of the recent invasion has risen to 32 if I'm not mistaken.

Hamas keeps breaking any ceasefires, ignores warnings, and uses its citizens as body shields.
And this for some reason makes you think that they could wipe Israel off the map? Israel is one of the most powerful countries in the world and Palestine is basically a third world country.

Harry Smith

July 22nd, 2014, 01:50 PM

. You obviously hate Jews

That's a flat out lie, do you have any evidence to suggest that I'm anti-semetic, what you're doing could get you into trouble a lot in life. And no I'm not acting 'coy' as you always say, I'd like some evidence that I'm anti-semetic, if you can't then I will ask for this thread to be locked

have a bias to any non UK country.

Non UK country? That makes sense. I'm fucking sick of people saying that I'm unfair in my criticisms. I've been one of the most critical members of this entire forum about the UK's current government, I've been the most critical about UK's failures in colonialism and Africa, and I've been one of members who said that the 2003 Iraq Invasion by the UK was wrong, everyone seems to be able to assert that I have some grand bias in my posts even though it's clear that people don't read the majority of them (accusing me of being soft on Saudi Arabia, accusing me of not condemning other nations, accusing me of being anti-british on top of it as well.) That's the ultimate irony-I've been accused of being both anti-British and too pro-british-what do you want me to do?

As I said above, I don't care if this is a rant. I'm fucking sick of the fact that you come onto this board and ignore every piece of evidence, you're by far one of the most frustrating people to debate with because you have no grasp of politics or history you just seem to sprout rhetoric that has no use. Seriously just fuck off with accusing people of things they quite clearly haven't done.I speak for a number of people in saying that it's pointless debating if you don't use facts or evidence. You just seem to jump out under the bridge accusing people of this and that, and then when people ask for quotes/evidence you refuse out of some sort of divine mandate. I'm fucking sick of you labeling me a 'sociopath, evil, cold, distance, heartless and now anti semetic purely because I'm able to put my views out in a reasonable way.

How dare you accuse me of hating Jews when I've got Jewish ancestry, my grandfather fought the Nazis to stop the most extreme form of antisemitism , he watched good young men die fighting against the Nazis. He served in Israel in the 1940's trying to sort out this mess. What part of my answer said that I hated Jews, how does questioning the actions of the Israeli Army make me anti-Jewish-of course you wouldn't know but not everyone in Israel is Jewish-you don't have to be Jewish to fight in the IDF-do you know what the IDF is?

This is almost worse than before, when you made the laughable claim that I only cared about the dead if they were 'left wing', this is easily one of the most laughable claims that I've ever heard on here, firstly look at the fact that as I said Hamas and the people of Palenstine tend to follow Islam and in the case of Hamas-fundamental Islam. By that logic I'd argue the vast majority of the civilians who died would not be described as leftist's at all. I've spoken out against the treatment of the prisoners in GITMO despite the fact the majority of them are hardline fundamental Muslims. I don't give a fuck what type of economic model or political theory the people in palestine follow-it doesn't make a difference if they are 6 feet under the ground does it

I hate Islam

You even have the arrogance to admit that you hate Islam because of violence whilst you endorse Israel killing 500 civilians. What crime did the children of Gaza commit

For the record I don't hate jews, and I ask that you withdraw that accusation

Left Now

July 22nd, 2014, 02:03 PM

Vlerchan

July 22nd, 2014, 02:31 PM

but if Hamas doesn't strike Israeli citizens in order to warrant the over-the-top attacks, then it's unlikely Israel would be so rash in its retaliation.
Israel was conducting the over-the-top attacks before Hamas had killed its first civilian (of the 2014 conflict).

There was (at least) 160 dead Palestinians (mostly civilians) by the time of the first Israeli civilian death.

However, they've attacked Israel in the past and the US, which of course is a notorious supporter of Israel, has constantly shot down UN negotiation attempts with Israel, so who are they after, in your opinion?
If the plight of the Palestinian people can be peddled to Western audiences then Western audiences will eventually start pressuring their governments into pressuring change. It seeks to connect with the people because it's through the people it will connect with the governments.

Obama does support the two-state solution though:

"We will continue to work with Israel to support a two-state solution to the decades-old conflict, one that ensures that the Israelis will live alongside their neighbours in peace and with security," Obama said in an Independence Day [Vlerchan Edit: Last May] message to the people of Israel.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/us-to-work-with-israel-to-support-two-state-solution-obama-114050601342_1.html

The problem for the last few years has been that Netanyahu does not support a Palestinian state.

They've tried cease fires before (even in this conflict, at least once), and Hamas breaks them.
Hamas broke this one.

Both sides have a history of not adhering to ceasefires though.

Has Hamas actually made a list of said "demands" it wants Israel to honor in this conflict? (I'm genuinely interested here - since I'm unaware of any of these actions).
I googled there (didn't know either):

First – Opening all the crossing with the Gaza Strip.

Second – Opening Rafah crossing, the link between Gaza and Egypt, on a permanent basis, 24 hours per day with international guarantees it will not be closed.

Third – A maritime corridor to Gaza.

Fourth – Allowing residents of the Gaza Strip to pray in the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem.

Fifth – Israel will release the prisoners who were freed as part of the “Shalit” deal, and Israel will abide by the previous agreement reached by prisoners and the Israel Prison Service with Egyptian mediation in 2012.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/exclusive-hamas-puts-forward-ceasefire-terms-amid-intense-mediation

In the above source it gives a link to a more expansive 10 point plan as opposed by Hamas:

1. Mutual cessation of the war and withdrawal of tanks to previous locations and the return of farmers to work their land in the agricultural border areas.

2. Release of all the Palestinians detained since 23 June 2014 and improvement of the conditions of Palestinian prisoners, especially the prisoners from Jerusalem, Gaza and Palestinians of the interior [present-day Israel].

3. Total lifting of the siege of Gaza and opening the border crossings to goods and people and allowing in all food and industrial supplies and construction of a power plant sufficient to supply all of Gaza.

4. Construction of an international seaport and an international airport supervised by the UN and non-biased countries.

5. Expansion of the maritime fishing zone to 10 kms and supplying fishermen with larger fishing and cargo vessels.

6. Converting the Rafah crossing into an international crossing under supervision of the UN and Arab and friendly countries.

7. Signing a 10-year truce agreement and deployment of international monitors to the borders.

8. A commitment by the occupation government not to violate Palestinian airspace and easing of conditions for worshipers in al-Aqsa mosque.

9. The occupation will not interfere in the affairs of the Palestinian government and will not hinder national reconciliation.

10. Restoration of the border industrial areas and their protection and development.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/palestinian-factions-reportedly-set-10-conditions-10-year-truce-israel

Right, but if there was a cease fire (meaning no Israeli rockets killing hundreds of civilians) who would feel sympathetic towards Hamas?
I don't understand this.

People still felt sympathetic towards holocaust survivors after the holocaust was over (if that's what you mean).

Though it's the Palestinian people as opposed to Hamas that people sympathise with.

And neither Israel nor Hamas has outlined such guidelines and unless the US lets up on backing Israel a bit, I doubt they will.
I'd think it would be in both their best interests to do so.

It seems like the best way to secure a long-term peace.

I just don't personally think depending on the UN to "step in" in case Palestine attacks is really how a newly sovereign nation should come into existence.
During the decolonisation of Africa, former-Imperialist powers left on the understanding that if 'bad things' happened they'd be prepared to jump back in and claw back control. I don't have a problem with the same occurring here.

This is all getting more hypothetical and off topic though.
I agree, which is why I'm cool to drop it.

---

So by your logic we should stand by and watch Israel be wiped off the map while thousands or millions die because Palestine is better in some way?
If you paid any attention to the conflict then you'd know this isn't a (real) possibility.

Israel has had causalities way more than just 30.
From this conflict the Israelis have incurred roughly 30 deaths, mostly soldiers.

From this conflict the Palestinian have incurred roughly 600 deaths, mostly civilians.

Hamas keeps breaking any ceasefires[1], ignores warnings[2], and uses its citizens as body shields[3].
[1]: So does Israel.

[2]: Expand please.

[3]: So has Israel.

Lovelife090994

July 23rd, 2014, 12:59 AM

That's a flat out lie, do you have any evidence to suggest that I'm anti-semetic, what you're doing could get you into trouble a lot in life. And no I'm not acting 'coy' as you always say, I'd like some evidence that I'm anti-semetic, if you can't then I will ask for this thread to be locked

Non UK country? That makes sense. I'm fucking sick of people saying that I'm unfair in my criticisms. I've been one of the most critical members of this entire forum about the UK's current government, I've been the most critical about UK's failures in colonialism and Africa, and I've been one of members who said that the 2003 Iraq Invasion by the UK was wrong, everyone seems to be able to assert that I have some grand bias in my posts even though it's clear that people don't read the majority of them (accusing me of being soft on Saudi Arabia, accusing me of not condemning other nations, accusing me of being anti-british on top of it as well.) That's the ultimate irony-I've been accused of being both anti-British and too pro-british-what do you want me to do?

As I said above, I don't care if this is a rant. I'm fucking sick of the fact that you come onto this board and ignore every piece of evidence, you're by far one of the most frustrating people to debate with because you have no grasp of politics or history you just seem to sprout rhetoric that has no use. Seriously just fuck off with accusing people of things they quite clearly haven't done.I speak for a number of people in saying that it's pointless debating if you don't use facts or evidence. You just seem to jump out under the bridge accusing people of this and that, and then when people ask for quotes/evidence you refuse out of some sort of divine mandate. I'm fucking sick of you labeling me a 'sociopath, evil, cold, distance, heartless and now anti semetic purely because I'm able to put my views out in a reasonable way.

How dare you accuse me of hating Jews when I've got Jewish ancestry, my grandfather fought the Nazis to stop the most extreme form of antisemitism , he watched good young men die fighting against the Nazis. He served in Israel in the 1940's trying to sort out this mess. What part of my answer said that I hated Jews, how does questioning the actions of the Israeli Army make me anti-Jewish-of course you wouldn't know but not everyone in Israel is Jewish-you don't have to be Jewish to fight in the IDF-do you know what the IDF is?

This is almost worse than before, when you made the laughable claim that I only cared about the dead if they were 'left wing', this is easily one of the most laughable claims that I've ever heard on here, firstly look at the fact that as I said Hamas and the people of Palenstine tend to follow Islam and in the case of Hamas-fundamental Islam. By that logic I'd argue the vast majority of the civilians who died would not be described as leftist's at all. I've spoken out against the treatment of the prisoners in GITMO despite the fact the majority of them are hardline fundamental Muslims. I don't give a fuck what type of economic model or political theory the people in palestine follow-it doesn't make a difference if they are 6 feet under the ground does it

You even have the arrogance to admit that you hate Islam because of violence whilst you endorse Israel killing 500 civilians. What crime did the children of Gaza commit

For the record I don't hate jews, and I ask that you withdraw that accusation

It appears I've hit a nerve. You want me to withdraw what I've seen you emphasize whilst steadily insulting me in the process. Haha, I'm laughing so hard I'm cackling. But lo, I feel your pain. Accusations are tough to deal with, that's probably why after having so many of them I am rather... How do you put this? Manic? Maybe? Anyway, so you don't have a bias to the Jews or to Israel? Then act like it and start admitting that Hamas and Palestine need to stop killing Israelis and that they need to stop attacking synagogues. And if it is me who has you going insane or at least frustrated beyond compare then don't. You see, no matter what you say you can never hurt me. And if somehow you really do wish to hurt me, then well tough luck I'm over two thousand miles away and I never divulge any locational details regarding my residence. Now, I'm honestly sorry if you find me frustrating. I know I lack people skills and at times I admit even a heart, let's just be honest I do. But even I don't let myself get frustrated over a delusional or annoying nuisance online behind a screen. I can't wait to read what you come up with next. Go on. I'll read what you write again and actually give you the proper "debate" you want. Allons-y!

Harry,what else do you really expect a person who says a whole religion is F**ked to do when you say something which is against his beliefs(in this case about Israel)?In this case,he will surely try to show you as an anti-Semetic and anti-Jew person,same thing he does for Muslims and whole Islam,claiming that they are anti-Semetic and anti-Christian while he doesn't have any evidence for his claim.

I present many evidentiary claims. However, you like the good believer you are, insists on ignoring it. Look, you don't have to feel guilty, but at least acknowledge all the crimes done in Islam's name. Christianity isn't clean either, but I'm pretty used to people disrespecting me over it. As for you on the matter, I'm pretty sure you can stop covering up the truth.