How come women are still paid less than men in the USA?

[Star Wolf]

It's not fair! It shouldn't be necessary at all! :mad:

What are the reasons? Why are things still like this? Is there any chance there will be pay equality soon?

[TheN3rdyOutcast]

I'm guessing because even though we've got an at least semi-progressive president, America is still run by old timers in Congress who are completely out of touch with the modern day.

[Gamma Male]

Tens of thousands of years of sexism are hard to undo. Just give it time.


The conservatives sure as fuck aren't helping though.

[Camazotz]

There are several "reasons", but according to this article (http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/08/debunking-the-myth-of-a-mythical-gender-pay-gap/) and every other intelligent article on the subject, it really just boils down to sexism. It's old-fashioned and outdated. Women deserve to be paid the same for doing the exact same job as a man, although I don't really know how maternity leave would work for it to be equal (I think they should be paid half of their normal salary during their maternity leave and paid half for the same amount of time before/after their maternity leave, so they're only getting paid for the amount of time they work).

[Star Wolf]

Tens of thousands of years of sexism are hard to undo. Just give it time.


The conservatives sure as fuck aren't helping though.

Yeah, it will take time.

[Sir Suomi]

That's because of the fact that the data behind the "pay gap" is off, which is misleading the public into thinking there is an actual pay gap. There are a lot of reasons why, but I'll go over the simple ones:

The "Pay Gap" data is not based on the comparison of men and women working in the same career field, with the same amount of experience, at the same level of hierarchy, and experience. It's simply the median of the total income between the two sexes.

On average, a man works 8.14 hours a day, while a women works 7.75 hours a day.

Men and women gravitate towards different career fields on average. Women tend to seek jobs with regular hours, more comfortable conditions, little travel, and greater personal fulfillment. Often times, women are willing to trade higher pay for jobs with other characteristics that they find attractive. Men, in contrast, often take jobs with less desirable characteristics in pursuit of higher pay. They work long hours and overnight shifts. They tar roofs in the sun, drive trucks across the country, toil in sewer systems, stand watch as prison guards, and risk injury on fishing boats, in coal mines, and in production plants. Such jobs pay more than others because otherwise no one would want to do them.

Children also play a key role in it. It's been shown single mothers with children tend to go with jobs that allow them to spend more time with their child, while men tend to go with jobs that pay more, and work multiple jobs, however at the price of not seeing their child as much.

[CharlieHorse]

That's because of the fact that the data behind the "pay gap" is off, which is misleading the public into thinking there is an actual pay gap. There are a lot of reasons why, but I'll go over the simple ones:

The "Pay Gap" data is not based on the comparison of men and women working in the same career field, with the same amount of experience, at the same level of hierarchy, and experience. It's simply the median of the total income between the two sexes.

On average, a man works 8.14 hours a day, while a women works 7.75 hours a day.

Men and women gravitate towards different career fields on average. Women tend to seek jobs with regular hours, more comfortable conditions, little travel, and greater personal fulfillment. Often times, women are willing to trade higher pay for jobs with other characteristics that they find attractive. Men, in contrast, often take jobs with less desirable characteristics in pursuit of higher pay. They work long hours and overnight shifts. They tar roofs in the sun, drive trucks across the country, toil in sewer systems, stand watch as prison guards, and risk injury on fishing boats, in coal mines, and in production plants. Such jobs pay more than others because otherwise no one would want to do them.

Children also play a key role in it. It's been shown single mothers with children tend to go with jobs that allow them to spend more time with their child, while men tend to go with jobs that pay more, and work multiple jobs, however at the price of not seeing their child as much.


I think it's a combination of this ^ and general sexism and/or gender bias employers have.

[Plasma]

That's because of the fact that the data behind the "pay gap" is off, which is misleading the public into thinking there is an actual pay gap. There are a lot of reasons why, but I'll go over the simple ones:

The "Pay Gap" data is not based on the comparison of men and women working in the same career field, with the same amount of experience, at the same level of hierarchy, and experience. It's simply the median of the total income between the two sexes.

On average, a man works 8.14 hours a day, while a women works 7.75 hours a day.

Men and women gravitate towards different career fields on average. Women tend to seek jobs with regular hours, more comfortable conditions, little travel, and greater personal fulfillment. Often times, women are willing to trade higher pay for jobs with other characteristics that they find attractive. Men, in contrast, often take jobs with less desirable characteristics in pursuit of higher pay. They work long hours and overnight shifts. They tar roofs in the sun, drive trucks across the country, toil in sewer systems, stand watch as prison guards, and risk injury on fishing boats, in coal mines, and in production plants. Such jobs pay more than others because otherwise no one would want to do them.

Children also play a key role in it. It's been shown single mothers with children tend to go with jobs that allow them to spend more time with their child, while men tend to go with jobs that pay more, and work multiple jobs, however at the price of not seeing their child as much.
Basically this. While there is still sexism in the US, and I dont agree with it at all, it really isn't as bad as the media and every other place you hear it from makes it out to be.

[Gamma Male]

That's because of the fact that the data behind the "pay gap" is off, which is misleading the public into thinking there is an actual pay gap. There are a lot of reasons why, but I'll go over the simple ones:

The "Pay Gap" data is not based on the comparison of men and women working in the same career field, with the same amount of experience, at the same level of hierarchy, and experience. It's simply the median of the total income between the two sexes.

On average, a man works 8.14 hours a day, while a women works 7.75 hours a day.

Men and women gravitate towards different career fields on average. Women tend to seek jobs with regular hours, more comfortable conditions, little travel, and greater personal fulfillment. Often times, women are willing to trade higher pay for jobs with other characteristics that they find attractive. Men, in contrast, often take jobs with less desirable characteristics in pursuit of higher pay. They work long hours and overnight shifts. They tar roofs in the sun, drive trucks across the country, toil in sewer systems, stand watch as prison guards, and risk injury on fishing boats, in coal mines, and in production plants. Such jobs pay more than others because otherwise no one would want to do them.

Children also play a key role in it. It's been shown single mothers with children tend to go with jobs that allow them to spend more time with their child, while men tend to go with jobs that pay more, and work multiple jobs, however at the price of not seeing their child as much.

This is mostly true, though I would argue that sexist societal pressures have more to do with women typically seeking out different types of jobs than natural psychological factors.

[Lovelife090994]

Tens of thousands of years of sexism are hard to undo. Just give it time.


The conservatives sure as fuck aren't helping though.

For once I actually agree with this. As much as we'd all like to ignore it, this sexism issue didn't start 20 years ago. This has been going on for centuries. Men were seen as superior for being physically stronger, the family head, and the one who carries the family name. It will take work to make women and men equal without any labels.

[Blood]

Tens of thousands of years of sexism are hard to undo. Just give it time.


The conservatives sure as fuck aren't helping though.

Exactly this. +1.

I believe sexism is a major issue in our society and although people are trying to fix it, it's going to take a while to be completely eliminated.

I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but quite frankly, men aren't going to think sexism is as big of a problem as it actually is because they don't have to deal with it on a regular basis.

[Babs]

Like everyone else said, sexism. And its oftentimes ignored because some people don't realize it still exists.
Unfortunately the wage gap isn't just a gender issue, its also a racial issue. Women of color are likely to make considerably less than a white women. But since we have a black president people are like "lol no more racism".

[britishboy]

Because women are in worse jobs and chose to take time off for children.

[Cpt_Cutter]

I'm all for women being paid the same as men but I do hold several exceptions, mainly jobs relating to heavy manual labor.

I guess it all comes down to sexism being hard to remove.

[Star Wolf]

Exactly this. +1.

I believe sexism is a major issue in our society and although people are trying to fix it, it's going to take a while to be completely eliminated.

I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but quite frankly, men aren't going to think sexism is as big of a problem as it actually is because they don't have to deal with it on a regular basis.

And it's still everywhere within people's concepts of society and reality, ingrained from the most blatant to the most subtle of gender perceptions. I find myself realizing often different things I have stereotyped myself.

[phuckphace]

That's because of the fact that the data behind the "pay gap" is off, which is misleading the public into thinking there is an actual pay gap. There are a lot of reasons why, but I'll go over the simple ones:

The "Pay Gap" data is not based on the comparison of men and women working in the same career field, with the same amount of experience, at the same level of hierarchy, and experience. It's simply the median of the total income between the two sexes.

On average, a man works 8.14 hours a day, while a women works 7.75 hours a day.

Men and women gravitate towards different career fields on average. Women tend to seek jobs with regular hours, more comfortable conditions, little travel, and greater personal fulfillment. Often times, women are willing to trade higher pay for jobs with other characteristics that they find attractive. Men, in contrast, often take jobs with less desirable characteristics in pursuit of higher pay. They work long hours and overnight shifts. They tar roofs in the sun, drive trucks across the country, toil in sewer systems, stand watch as prison guards, and risk injury on fishing boats, in coal mines, and in production plants. Such jobs pay more than others because otherwise no one would want to do them.

Children also play a key role in it. It's been shown single mothers with children tend to go with jobs that allow them to spend more time with their child, while men tend to go with jobs that pay more, and work multiple jobs, however at the price of not seeing their child as much.

this. the pay gap is the simple result of men and women making different choices in their careers (something you expect to see if you acknowledge that men and women have inherent psychological and biological differences). most women could be making the same average pay that men do in almost all areas, but when presented with the same opportunities, they typically don't jump on them, hence the pay gap.

unfortunately, radical feminism has propagandized the pay gap and uses it to convince young women that they're being actively oppressed by privileged penises everywhere. but I highly doubt that the vast majority of people actually care if their boss or coworker has a dick or not, I think most people just want a stable job where they can earn decent money and move up if they want to. if I had to guess, I'd say sexual harassment in the workplace, not gender-specific employment discrimination, is the most common form of sexism you're likely to encounter in business, and that can go both ways.

[mrmee]

Just to put a real life example out there; Where I live, most families are the man goes to work and the woman stays home and takes care of the kids, house, ect. To be completely contrary, my mom moved here from the city, to be with my dad. Being from te city, she knew that men and women are equal, however my dad, being raised here, has the opinion of here. She worked her way up, and now earning much more money being the most estimed CPA in 100 miles, than my dad, who works on UPS loading docks, where he is at one of the highest and best paying positions available there, where the branch president is a woman, he still only gets paid at most, with overtime, half of my mom.

[Microcosm]

The country is run mainly by men who make all the decisions. That will cause sexism.

[Allbutanillusion]

That's because of the fact that the data behind the "pay gap" is off, which is misleading the public into thinking there is an actual pay gap.

I agree. "Just more spin doctors at work".., More anti-male, anti-white propaganda that seem to be proliferating our society now days. I am really getting tired of the victim mentality ..if your not "oppressed" by whites your "oppressed" by males/men. It is all about greed.., people trying to maximize their personal gains with the least amount of effort via loopholes and frivolous lawsuits( which have been surprisingly won and that is why the victim mentality is so popular and everyone claims to be a victim now days.... just stupidity..in my opinion.

[Harry Smith]

I agree. "Just more spin doctors at work".., More anti-male, anti-white propaganda .

So despite the fact that woman aren't represented in our courts, parliaments or offices you still think that there isn't a problem?

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/51371467.jpg

[Allbutanillusion]

this. the pay gap is the simple result of men and women making different choices in their careers (something you expect to see if you acknowledge that men and women have inherent psychological and biological differences). most women could be making the same average pay that men do in almost all areas, but when presented with the same opportunities, they typically don't jump on them, hence the pay gap.

unfortunately, radical feminism has propagandized the pay gap and uses it to convince young women that they're being actively oppressed by privileged penises everywhere. but I highly doubt that the vast majority of people actually care if their boss or coworker has a dick or not, I think most people just want a stable job where they can earn decent money and move up if they want to. if I had to guess, I'd say sexual harassment in the workplace, not gender-specific employment discrimination, is the most common form of sexism you're likely to encounter in business, and that can go both ways.


Previously, I did not read down/scroll down this far into the thread and I would have to say that some good points are made.

In particular..,"unfortunately, radical feminism has propagandized the pay gap and uses it to convince young women that they're being actively oppressed by privileged penises everywhere." Which is so true.

I recall being told at one time by a feminist that feminism has already achieved the goal women's equality, overall but that their main goal now to take away more rights from men. How interesting.

[Harry Smith]

I recall being told at one time by a feminist that feminism has already achieved the goal women's equality, overall but that their main goal now to take away more rights from men. How interesting.

I also met a man under a bridge who told me that the Queen is a lizard-did I believe him? No.

Just because you claim someone told you something doesn't mean that it is the overall goal of Feminism

[Babs]

G In response to the "radical feminism" and "anti-white propaganda" talk...
no, just because feminists bring up sexist issues doesn't mean they're trying to make men look like horrible demons from the pits of hell.
Also, not sure if this occurred to y'all, but just because one feminist said/implied that sexism no longer exists and feels feminism is no longer relevant, doesn't mean all women feel that way. That person is not the spokeswoman for every female on the planet, believe it or not. Many women experience sexism on a daily basis.
Why do some white males feel so victimized because feminists/people of color speak out about their oppression? No one said that every white or every man is a racist or misogynist jackass. No one said you're automatically oppressing said people by existing. However, by invalidating the people who speak out about their oppression, you are contributing to the oppression. By erasing their problems because you got your feelings hurt by the words "white privilege", you are part of the problem.

[Sir Suomi]

So despite the fact that woman aren't represented in our courts, parliaments or offices you still think that there isn't a problem?

image (http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/51371467.jpg)

Oh look, I used a meme too.

http://i2.wp.com/memecollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/damn-privileged-males.jpg?resize=642%2C720

[Harry Smith]

Oh look, I used a meme too.

image (http://i2.wp.com/memecollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/damn-privileged-males.jpg?resize=642%2C720)

Tbh at least I dealt with the argument in my response, women are underrepresented in Politics and in society. Heck our church only today voted to let women become Bishops

[Sir Suomi]

Tbh at least I dealt with the argument in my response, women are underrepresented in Politics and in society. Heck our church only today voted to let women become Bishops

Would you expect anything less from organized religion? Come on, you're smarter than that.

[Vlerchan]

I'm going to make a proper response to this thread when I get time and address more than just this post.
Oh look, I used a meme too.

image (http://i2.wp.com/memecollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/damn-privileged-males.jpg?resize=642%2C720)
Your problem here is that feminists do see men's issues as issues too - and that's why I label MRA movement redundant and more: counterproductive. Lots of men's issues link back to the gender socialization (too): using your example, men have a higher rate of homelessness because men tend to be more inclined to take risks, and more men take big risks because there's more pressure on them to 'make it'. I consider the enrollment statistic meaningless because it's the course that people enter that matters, and whether or not graduates make use of the education: enrollment by itself isn't worth discussing. I'm not going to bother with life expectancy either: it's a red herring, and has nothing to do with social privledge. There's more female-specific shelters because females are more likely to be forced to leave home due to abuse, etc., and female-specific shelters often cater to that. There's no pressing need for male-specific shelters as far as I'm aware.

If we want to look at male privledge now it gets more obvious: Harry was correct that men dominate the upper echelons of society: there's a disproportionate number of male world leaders, CEOs, judges, etc., and whilst you might believe that you being able to 'explain' the gender pay-gap makes it a meaningless statistic (though, your analysis was somewhat off: there's an unexplained 6 or so percent once you break it down), such existing still hints at an inequality in work. It should also be noted that the 'choices' are largely a result of socialization - no evidence supports (biological) determinism in this instance.

---

Aside, I must add that I consider concepts such as 'privledge', etc. a bad idea to discuss: it implies that the privledged are without issues, and as a line of investigation tends to be quite counterproductive: it's better to just look into the issues one at a time, draw conclusions, and decide on a means to better the situation. I could continue here for hours listing ways in which men and woman are both 'privledged', but the truth of the matter is both are fucked over by societies current construction - I'd just argue women more than men, which is why woman get a disproportionate amount of focus.

[Sir Suomi]

I'm going to make a proper response to this thread when I get time and address more than just this post.

Your problem here is that feminists do see men's issues as issues too - and that's why I label MRA movement redundant and more: counterproductive. Lots of men's issues link back to the gender socialization (too): using your example, men have a higher rate of homelessness because men tend to be more inclined to take risks, and more men take big risks because there's more pressure on them to 'make it'. I consider the enrollment statistic meaningless because it's the course that people enter that matters, and whether or not graduates make use of the education: enrollment by itself isn't worth discussing. I'm not going to bother with life expectancy either: it's a red herring, and has nothing to do with social privledge. There's more female-specific shelters because females are more likely to be forced to leave home due to abuse, etc., and female-specific shelters often cater to that. There's no pressing need for male-specific shelters as far as I'm aware.

If we want to look at male privledge now it gets more obvious: Harry was correct that men dominate the upper echelons of society: there's a disproportionate number of male world leaders, CEOs, judges, etc., and whilst you might believe that you being able to 'explain' the gender pay-gap makes it a meaningless statistic (though, your analysis was somewhat off: there's an unexplained 6 or so percent once you break it down), such existing still hints at an inequality in work. It should also be noted that the 'choices' are largely a result of socialization - no evidence supports (biological) determinism in this instance.

---

Aside, I must add that I consider concepts such as 'privledge', etc. a bad idea to discuss: it implies that the privledged are without issues, and as a line of investigation tends to be quite counterproductive: it's better to just look into the issues one at a time, draw conclusions, and decide on a means to better the situation. I could continue here for hours listing ways in which men and woman are both 'privledged', but the truth of the matter is both are fucked over by societies current construction - I'd just argue women more than men, which is why woman get a disproportionate amount of focus.

The whole point I was trying to make is simply that men have issues we're trying to overcome that are overlooked. For example, ever realize you see hardly any male educators in the elementary education system? Schools prefer to hire female educators, because in their eyes they see women as better instructors for younger children. Now if there's actual proof behind this statement is beyond my knowledge, but still.

Also, the social norms for a male are much stricter. Although this certainly is becoming less evident in today's world, on average, the male is still the main income supply when it comes to family, while the female is on average staying at home, doing house work and taking care of the children, etc. There's countless others, but I'm not going to get into these.

My issue with feminists is that they focus purely on the female social issues, while completely ignoring the male side. If they really wanted a better world, they'd become equalists.

[phuckphace]

I recall being told at one time by a feminist that feminism has already achieved the goal women's equality, overall but that their main goal now to take away more rights from men. How interesting.

that might certainly be the case for some feminists, but feminism is on the rise largely because belonging to an oppressed victim minority is fashionable these days.

[Harry Smith]

My issue with feminists is that they focus purely on the female social issues, while completely ignoring the male side. If they really wanted a better world, they'd become equalists.

I'd say your wrong on that point. Your wrong to claim that feminists only focus on female issues-that's like saying 1960's civil rights campaigners only focused on black rights

The majority of feminists are progressives, meaning they'd support an increased minimum wage, better rights at work, cheaper housing and free healthcare.

It's also very hypocritical of you to dislike feminists on the point that they focus only on women when you've taken a clear point on this thread of dismissing female issues.

The message from you is-if I do it it's fine-but if women do it then it's terrible

[Vlerchan]

The whole point I was trying to make is simply that men have issues we're trying to overcome that are overlooked.
It's not overlooked as much as overshadowed.

Schools prefer to hire female educators, because in their eyes they see women as better instructors for younger children.
You'll find it's rather that there's more woman entering the field than men.

You'll also find though that men still tend to dominate the upper tiers of the profession.

Also, the social norms for a male are much stricter.
No, they are not.

the male is still the main income supply when it comes to family, while the female is on average staying at home, doing house work and taking care of the children, etc.
You're acting like this isn't a main talking point for feminists.

You just described the basis for a large part of the pay gap that feminists want to counter.

My issue with feminists is that they focus purely on the female social issues, while completely ignoring the male side.
You'll find that male and female social issues are just two sides of the same coin.

Let's take your example: it exist because of an insistence on the 'traditional' family structure: in proposing shared maternity leave, etc. and encouraging woman to work outside the home, feminists are pushing the idea that earning a living shouldn't just be the responsibility of males, and the disproportionate amount of pressure put on them is wrong.

If they really wanted a better world, they'd become equalists.
They are.

[Gamma Male]

I recall being told at one time by a feminist that feminism has already achieved the goal women's equality, overall but that their main goal now to take away more rights from men. How interesting.

I seriously doubt this ever actually happened. I'm almost certain you're making it up.

[ImCoolBeans]

Previously, I did not read down/scroll down this far into the thread and I would have to say that some good points are made.

In particular..,"unfortunately, radical feminism has propagandized the pay gap and uses it to convince young women that they're being actively oppressed by privileged penises everywhere." Which is so true.

I recall being told at one time by a feminist that feminism has already achieved the goal women's equality, overall but that their main goal now to take away more rights from men. How interesting.

If that is the case, then those people aren't feminists. Feminism, by definition, is: The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. What you have described is misandry; which by definition is: the hatred of men by women.

[Allbutanillusion]

So despite the fact that woman aren't represented in our courts, parliaments or offices you still think that there isn't a problem?

image (http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/51371467.jpg)


Really?.. Did you really just "say" that. Are your really that ignorant..apparently so.

Organizations that represent the interests of women.

Take NOW(National Organization for Women) for example...,NOW is dedicated to making legal, political, social and economic change in our society for women.

other groups include....

In the USA...

Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc
American Association for Women Radiologists AAWR
American Association of University Women
American Association of Women Dentists (AAWD)
American Equal Rights Association
American Heritage Girls
American Woman Suffrage Association
Association of Women Professionals
Association for Women in Science (AWIS)
Big Sisters
Business and Professional Women's Foundation
Cambridge Women's Center (founded in 1971)
Catholic Daughters of the Americas (founded in 1903)
Chi Omega Fraternity (founded in 1895)
Concerned Women for America
Commercial Real Estate Women
Daughters of the American Revolution - Historical society (founded 1890)
Daughters of Utah Pioneers - Historical society (founded 1919)
Degree of Pocahontas
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. - founded in 1913
The Enlighten Foundation - educating, equipping, and empowering women worldwide
Equal Rights Advocates
Equality for HER - dedicated to spreading awareness about health, education, & rights
Family of Women
Feminists for Life
Feminist Majority Foundation
General Federation of Women's Clubs (1890)
Girl Scouts of the United States of America
Hadassah
JC's Girls
Junior League
La Leche League
League of Women Voters
Mommy Mentors
National American Woman Suffrage Association
National Association of Female Executives
National Association of Professional Women (NAPW)
National Association of University Women (NAUW)
National Council of Jewish Women
National Council of Negro Women
National Council of Women of the United States - founded in 1888, affiliated with the International Council of Women
National Federation of Republican Women
National Organization for Women (NOW)
National Woman Suffrage Association
National Woman's Party - suffrage organization founded in 1913 by Alice Paul
National Women's Political Caucus
Professional Women's Business Network {PWBN}Link label Bringing women together for networking, enlightenment and empowerment.
Project Sparkle International - educating, equipping, and empowering women worldwide
Pythian Sisters
Rebekah Degree
Relief Society [2]
Royal Neighbors of America
Refugee Women's Network
Running Start - Bringing Young Women to Politics
Sertoma Club
The S4W Foundation
The Sow4Women Organization
U.S. Women's Chamber of Commerce
Veteran Feminists of America
Woman's Christian Temperance Union
Women In Prison
Women of Visionary Influence
Women Open Network
Women Organized to Resist and Defend
Women's Bowling Congress
Woman's Missionary Union
Women's Refugee Commission
Women Speakers Association - Global organization founded in 2009 serving women in over 120 countries on 6 continents supporting them in getting their message out into the world.
Younger Women's Task Force
World Wide Women Group
Zeta Phi Beta, Inc


In the UK


British Women's Institute
Conservative Women's Organisation, the organisation for women members of the Conservative Party (UK)
Dublin Women's Suffrage Association fought for women's suffrage
Freedom Charity, organisation for helping victims of forced marriage and associated violence
Irish Women's Franchise League women's suffrage group founded in 1908
Junior League
Ladies Circle
League of Jewish Women
National Society for Women's Suffrage
National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies major woman's suffrage group
National Women's Register (NWR) A network of local groups and individual members who enjoy lively discussion and conversation
Socialist Women's Network
The Association of Loyal Orangewomen of Ireland
The Women's Society (Based in Cardiff and South Wales areas)
WiRE (Women in Rural Enterprise)
Women Liberal Democrats
Women's Social and Political Union a major suffrage organization in the United Kingdom
Fawcett Society the UK's leading campaigning organisation for women’s equality and rights – at home, at work and in public life

[Harry Smith]

Really?.. Did you really just "say" that. Are your really that ignorant..apparently so.

Organizations that represent the interests of women.

Take NOW(National Organization for Women) for example...,NOW is dedicated to making legal, political, social and economic change in our society for women.

other groups include....

In the USA...

Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc
American Association for Women Radiologists AAWR
American Association of University Women
American Association of Women Dentists (AAWD)
American Equal Rights Association
American Heritage Girls
American Woman Suffrage Association
Association of Women Professionals
Association for Women in Science (AWIS)
Big Sisters
Business and Professional Women's Foundation
Cambridge Women's Center (founded in 1971)
Catholic Daughters of the Americas (founded in 1903)
Chi Omega Fraternity (founded in 1895)
Concerned Women for America
Commercial Real Estate Women
Daughters of the American Revolution - Historical society (founded 1890)
Daughters of Utah Pioneers - Historical society (founded 1919)
Degree of Pocahontas
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. - founded in 1913
The Enlighten Foundation - educating, equipping, and empowering women worldwide
Equal Rights Advocates
Equality for HER - dedicated to spreading awareness about health, education, & rights
Family of Women
Feminists for Life
Feminist Majority Foundation
General Federation of Women's Clubs (1890)
Girl Scouts of the United States of America
Hadassah
JC's Girls
Junior League
La Leche League
League of Women Voters
Mommy Mentors
National American Woman Suffrage Association
National Association of Female Executives
National Association of Professional Women (NAPW)
National Association of University Women (NAUW)
National Council of Jewish Women
National Council of Negro Women
National Council of Women of the United States - founded in 1888, affiliated with the International Council of Women
National Federation of Republican Women
National Organization for Women (NOW)
National Woman Suffrage Association
National Woman's Party - suffrage organization founded in 1913 by Alice Paul
National Women's Political Caucus
Professional Women's Business Network {PWBN}Link label Bringing women together for networking, enlightenment and empowerment.
Project Sparkle International - educating, equipping, and empowering women worldwide
Pythian Sisters
Rebekah Degree
Relief Society [2]
Royal Neighbors of America
Refugee Women's Network
Running Start - Bringing Young Women to Politics
Sertoma Club
The S4W Foundation
The Sow4Women Organization
U.S. Women's Chamber of Commerce
Veteran Feminists of America
Woman's Christian Temperance Union
Women In Prison
Women of Visionary Influence
Women Open Network
Women Organized to Resist and Defend
Women's Bowling Congress
Woman's Missionary Union
Women's Refugee Commission
Women Speakers Association - Global organization founded in 2009 serving women in over 120 countries on 6 continents supporting them in getting their message out into the world.
Younger Women's Task Force
World Wide Women Group
Zeta Phi Beta, Inc


In the UK


British Women's Institute
Conservative Women's Organisation, the organisation for women members of the Conservative Party (UK)
Dublin Women's Suffrage Association fought for women's suffrage
Freedom Charity, organisation for helping victims of forced marriage and associated violence
Irish Women's Franchise League women's suffrage group founded in 1908
Junior League
Ladies Circle
League of Jewish Women
National Society for Women's Suffrage
National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies major woman's suffrage group
National Women's Register (NWR) A network of local groups and individual members who enjoy lively discussion and conversation
Socialist Women's Network
The Association of Loyal Orangewomen of Ireland
The Women's Society (Based in Cardiff and South Wales areas)
WiRE (Women in Rural Enterprise)
Women Liberal Democrats
Women's Social and Political Union a major suffrage organization in the United Kingdom
Fawcett Society the UK's leading campaigning organisation for women’s equality and rights – at home, at work and in public life

Well done for completely missing the entire point. I know they're are groups, I was saying that women aren't represented in public life.

Tell me how many female Presidents have there been? There's what 9 female senators out of 100, only 22% of MP's in Britain are female. I applaud you for reading a post and then replying with something that has no relevance at all. But I'm sure you love the fact that men dominate society right?

[Allbutanillusion]

... because belonging to an oppressed victim minority is fashionable these days.

Correct..... that is what I was implying in my original post/reply Also I would add that not only is it fashionable but also profitable for some to claim to be a oppressed victim these days.. as I implied as well in my first post. So we are in agreement.

[Vlerchan]

Organizations that represent the interests of women.
The point was that men hold more political power than woman, because men dominate important economic and political institutions.

Also I would add that not only is it fashionable but also profitable for some to claim to be a oppressed victim these days..
Yes, the average woman being paid less than the average man is certainly a profitable position for woman-as-a-whole to be in.

[Jean Poutine]

I think that our generation, with women outnumbering men in universities, will reverse the trend that women are paid less than men. Feminism's job on this front is mostly done and we just have to wait for the results.

At my college, almost all dentistry students are female, and in law as well they are the majority of students. There's actually way more women on the honor roll than men than there should be in law. Some fields are still mostly a male domain like engineering and computer science but a lot of the others are female-dominated, and a lot of them are for real high paying jobs in the current economy, not just stuff like English. Since college graduates generally have higher salaries than high school diploma or technical diploma holders, and women will be college graduates more often than men, things should start equalizing on their own.

When our generation starts getting positions of authority, while in college we've become used to have many women co-students, many in the top of the class, I'm pretty sure we'll recognize the reality and hire the best, whether they be men or women.

Once that is the reality, all quotas or any other legal gender equity instrument should be repealed.

[StoppingTime]

Tell me how many female Presidents have there been? There's what 9 female senators out of 100, only 22% of MP's in Britain are female. I applaud you for reading a post and then replying with something that has no relevance at all.

That has more to do with the society who elects those representatives than the women themselves, does it not?

But I'm sure you love the fact that men dominate society right?
This statement has no place in this debate - nobody but you said such a thing. There's no reason you need to get personal here.

[Harry Smith]

That has more to do with the society who elects those representatives than the women themselves, does it not?


The problem isn't the elections, the problem is that the women aren't even standing in the primaries, and if they are it's only a single women against 7 men. I've always thought that the public aren't sexist in regards to voting-the problem is that the parties aren't selecting enough women, and in turn the women who are selected tend to stand for reactionary right wing policies that don't actually benefit women

[UnknownError]

The wage gap DOES NOT EXIST. George S. Patton summed it up but this is basically everything you need to know:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html

http://money.howstuffworks.com/gender-gap1.htm

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-13/don-t-blame-discrimination-for-gender-wage-gap.html

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidgreen/9666597/The_gender_pay_gap_does_not_exist/

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-gender-wage-gap-is-a-myth-2012-07-26

http://www.businessinsider.com/actually-the-gender-pay-gap-is-just-a-myth-2011-3?op=1

http://oratorasaurus.tumblr.com/post/41131660349/the-so-called-pay-gap

http://tgjesusfreak.tumblr.com/post/59991585178

http://wwww.examiner.com/x-22884-Canada-Politics-Examiner~y2010m2d22-Gender-pay-gap-is-not-what-activists-claim

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/vickiwoods/7957186/Sorry-ladies-Im-not-worried-about-wage-gaps.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/opinion/22Sommers.html?_r=1&hp

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_wage_gap_myth.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa3pKN3XUKM&feature=youtu.be

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/06/business/economy/06women.html?_r=2

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/biggest-shock-fridays-payroll-report-sorry-men

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/07/share-of-men-in-labor-force-at-all-time-low/?src=recg

http://www.businessinsider.com/women-in-tech-make-more-money-and-land-better-jobs-than-men-20

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedType=R

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=10630664

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/Young-Women-Earn-More-159818705.html

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/03/14/jobs-where-women-earn-more-than-men/

http://www.womenintechnology.co.uk/news/young-women-earn-more-than-men%E2%80%94news-800761492

http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2011/10/young-women-now-earn-more-than-men-in-uk/

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedTy%E2%80%A6

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/03/15/optout.revolution/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23413243

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/06/13/dads.work/index.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-05-04-equal-parenting_N.htm

http://www.sify.com/news/women-stay-away-from-math-out-of-their-own-free-choice-news-scitech-kk1lubiiiee.html

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/women_science_no_discrimination_says_cornell_study-75984

http://www.payscale.com/career-news/2009/12/do-men-or-women-choose-majors-to-maximize-income

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html

[Vlerchan]

The wage gap DOES NOT EXIST.
It does exist.

People just feel that being able to explain some of the factors that cause it means it doesn't matter.

[UnknownError]

It does exist.

People just feel that being able to explain some of the factors that cause it means it doesn't matter.

it doesnt exist in the sense people say it exists. a man and a woman doing the exact same job at the exact same company for the exact same amount of hours earn the same.

[ImCoolBeans]

it doesnt exist in the sense people say it exists. a man and a woman doing the exact same job at the exact same company for the exact same amount of hours earn the same.

I work for a company that often hires females at $0.25 lower per hour. The only time a female is hired at the same rate as a male is when she is basically given the job because she knows somebody of importance in the company. What you're saying just isn't true all of the time.

[UnknownError]

I work for a company that often hires females at $0.25 lower per hour. The only time a female is hired at the same rate as a male is when she is basically given the job because she knows somebody of importance in the company. What you're saying just isn't true all of the time.

but usually it is. in fact if you look at the largest cities in the US, women have a larger median wage than men. and its the median wage gap that does exist.

In New York in 2005, according to an analysis of the latest census results they were making about $5,000 more: a median wage of $35,653, or 117 percent of the $30,560 reported by men in that age group.

In Dallas, women make 120 percent of what men do, although their median wage there, $25,467, was much lower than that of women in New York.

the median wage gap exists because it looks at ALL men and ALL women in ALL areas of work. the top five jobs that men take in the US (in order) are construction, engineering, law enforcement, firemen and electrician. top five (in order) in the US that women take are secretaries and administrative assistants, registered nurses, elementary and middle school teachers, cashiers & nursing, psychiatric, and home health aides. the top 5 men's jobs (generally) pay more than the top 5 women's jobs. the main exception is construction which pays less than secretaries.

Nationally, women in their 20s made a median income of $25,467, compared with $28,523 for men.

the source for the quotes is x (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&)

[ImCoolBeans]

but usually it is. in fact if you look at the largest cities in the US, women have a larger median wage than men. and its the median wage gap that does exist.





the median wage gap exists because it looks at ALL men and ALL women in ALL areas of work. the top five jobs that men take in the US (in order) are construction, engineering, law enforcement, firemen and electrician. top five (in order) in the US that women take are secretaries and administrative assistants, registered nurses, elementary and middle school teachers, cashiers & nursing, psychiatric, and home health aides. the top 5 men's jobs (generally) pay more than the top 5 women's jobs. the main exception is construction which pays less than secretaries.



the source for the quotes is x (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&)

That is all wonderful, but you were just talking about comparing wages for the same job... and now you're comparing wages for different jobs in the same age group. Not quite the same thing.

Also, none of that changes the fact that there are still companies that hire women and men at different starting salaries for the same job.

[rtw1997]

This is actually a myth. Women and men make the same amount on average FOR THE SAME WORK. Yes, when you take all men and all women in the U.S. and average their wages, men out-earn women by about 23 cents because they tend to work in higher-paying careers and take less time off for child care, etc.

[Vlerchan]

Women and men make the same amount on average FOR THE SAME WORK.
ImCoolBeans disputed this above: woman in his workplace are usually paid less than men.

There's still an unexmplained pay-gap even when you account for the 'choice' though:

In addition to being more likely to seek part-time work, women are also more likely to have gaps in their employment history and to enter lower-paying fields. The consulting company Consad, in a 2009 report for the Labor Department, found that these factors account for most of the pay gap. Correct for them, and men make only 5 percent to 7 percent more than women for the same work.

It should be noted that I'm citing an article written by an individual who's attacking the idea like you are.

Yes, when you take all men and all women in the U.S. and average their wages, men out-earn women by about 23 cents because they tend to work in higher-paying careers and take less time off for child care, etc.
Why, in your opinion, do woman make these choices?

[LoveLessOne]

Men are paid more because they wont work for less and men want to feel more dominatr that they are the ones who have the power since they make the most money

[Broken Toy]

Men are paid more because they wont work for less and men want to feel more dominatr that they are the ones who have the power since they make the most money

What you said makes no sense. Im sorry to bring it up but i don't know how you can think that is a reason behind an imaginary pay gap.
In CERTAIN jobs as cool beans said they may hire women at a lower rate than men but is there a study proving that there aren't some jobs where men are payed less.
In regards to the dominant thing, you just said exactly what a feminist who plays victim says (not saying you are but its what they would say) and its simply impossible. In this day and age, if a person wont work for less than theyre offered, it looks like they aren't working as there is always someone willing to worm at that lower rate.

[Vlerchan]

Im sorry to bring it up but i don't know how you can think that is a reason behind an imaginary pay gap.
I take it you didn't read the thread then. Men being better negotiators in terms of wages was brought up in at least one report.

The pay-gap also isn't imaginary. When you're searching for that article I'm referencing, I'd suggest reading the rest of the thread.

In regards to the dominant thing, you just said exactly what a feminist who plays victim says (not saying you are but its what they would say) and its simply impossible.
Please expand here. Thanks in advance.

[Broken Toy]

I take it you didn't read the thread then. Men being better negotiators in terms of wages was brought up in at least one report.

But people don't particularly get that much negotiation in terms of wage. A lot of people are unemployed and therefore if one wants more money and another doesn't mind as much, theyre always going to save money. In the past maybe men were but that cant come down to sexism because it could just be that the men were better negotiators in the study. If that is the case, you cant blame men for being good at negotiation.

The pay-gap also isn't imaginary. When you're searching for that article I'm referencing, I'd suggest reading the rest of the thread.

I did read a fair amount of it but i skipped the arguments that were not of much contribution to the discussion. It has been proven that the study so regularly used is simply too vague to be of any value. It has also been proven, on average for whatever reason men work 14% more so it is correct they should be psyed more.
Please expand here. Thanks in advance.

Basically she (or her friend) said that men wont work for less because that would make them submissive and men are dominant. That in my eyes is simply wrong. Men's dominance and women's dominance is not going to influence pay because they just wouldn't hire them
Im sorry!! My friend has a bad habit of hijackin my phone! Im so sorry!

Im not that bothered. It was just what i believe was a wrong statement. No need to apologise.

[Vlerchan]

But people don't particularly get that much negotiation in terms of wage.
I stated it was present. I never stated it was significant.

In the higher echelons of employment it can be quite significant though.

A lot of people are unemployed and therefore if one wants more money and another doesn't mind as much, theyre always going to save money.
I don't understand this line at all. If it's relevant to the pay-gap then I'd appreciate if you reworded it.

If that is the case, you cant blame men for being good at negotiation.
Why, in your opinion, are men in general better at negotiating?

It has been proven that the study so regularly used is simply too vague to be of any value.
This line itself is too vague to be of any value.

I'll need to know which study you are talking about before I can write a response back.

It has also been proven, on average for whatever reason men work 14% more so it is correct they should be psyed more.
I know that men work more hours on average. It doesn't eliminate the pay-gap altogether though.

Why, in your opinion again, do men work longer hours on average? - or, conversely, woman work shorter hours on average?

Men's dominance and women's dominance is not going to influence pay because they just wouldn't hire them
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.

LoveLessOne's friend's point is that in general men are socialised into a more aggressively ambitious mindset, or at least that's what I got out of it (she worded it quite poorly), as opposed to woman who are in general socialised into being more submissive, more complicit, and beyond that more family-orientated. I would think that ones outcomes from work etc. would differ depending on which mindset someone was socialised into: with the former paying out greater dividends than the latter.

[Broken Toy]

I stated it was present. I never stated it was significant.

In the higher echelons of employment it can be quite significant though.


I don't understand this line at all. If it's relevant to the pay-gap then I'd appreciate if you reworded it.


Why, in your opinion, are men in general better at negotiating?


This line itself is too vague to be of any value.

I'll need to know which study you are talking about before I can write a response back.


I know that men work more hours on average. It doesn't eliminate the pay-gap altogether though.

Why, in your opinion again, do men work longer hours on average? - or, conversely, woman work shorter hours on average?


I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.

LoveLessOne's friend's point is that in general men are socialised into a more aggressively ambitious mindset, or at least that's what I got out of it (she worded it quite poorly), as opposed to woman who are in general socialised into being more submissive, more complicit, and beyond that more family-orientated. I would think that ones outcomes from work etc. would differ depending on which mindset someone was socialised into: with the former paying out greater dividends than the latter.

First, next time please actually structure your replies in a way that has debating value rather than picking at mine.
Well next, the fact you complain about my comments for not reading the thread but say that "in my opinion " men are better at negotiating than women just shows that though you are quick to doubt me, you haven't read even recent comments otherwise you would know someone else said that.
I don't see why you want me to quote the official study. I know of it but do not recall the name so just google the words "wage gap study".
On your point of the question of women working shorter hours, i think that is a stupid question as you're basically looking for a reason to blame men/society for the fact women don't work as long. Commend men don't protect women.
Now i don't even know where to begin with your comment on society. It doesn't matter about society at all. I was recently in Africa where there is not a lot of animal care but i still met someone who wants to be a vet. And i think the best example of how 'society' doesn't influence your life is the fact that martin Luther king was black in the 60s. He could have been like everyone else and accept that they will be discriminated against. But he didn't so if he can be one of the most influential people ever, why cant a women in a first world country now get a 'manly' job

[Vlerchan]

First, next time please actually structure your replies in a way that has debating value rather than picking at mine.
I'm not going to do this.

I would presume by the rest of your response you found some value though.

Well next, the fact you complain about my comments for not reading the thread but say that "in my opinion " men are better at negotiating than women just shows that though you are quick to doubt me, you haven't read even recent comments otherwise you would know someone else said that.

I was asking for your opinion on the matter. Here's the evidence though:

A study of the job negotiations of graduating professional school students found that male students were eight times more likely to negotiate starting salaries and pay than female students. A survey by the same researchers found that more than twice as many women than men said they felt "a great deal of apprehension" about "negotiating". Some studies of simulated salary negotiations have also found that men on average negotiated more aggressively than women. Other studies, however, have found no gender difference in pay negotiations. Barry Gerhart and Sara Rymes (1991) investigated the salary negotiating behaviors and starting salary outcomes of graduating MBA students and found that women did not negotiate less than men. However, women did obtain lower monetary returns from negotiation. Over the course of a career, the accumulation of such differences may be substantial, according to the researchers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States#Negotiating_salaries

Here's also the answer I was looking for:

Women who do ask for a higher salary often face a "double bind" -- they can be perceived as either competent or likable, but not both. Women can be penalized for asking, because that action violates the cultural norm of women being "nice" and "accommodating." A woman who asks is often considered aggressive and unlikeable, and does not get the raise or the job, while her male counterpart, doing exactly the same thing, is rewarded. This largely unconscious bias, held by both men and women, inhibits women's agency in the workplace.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paula-gutlove/wage-gap-points-to-broade_b_5228789.html

I don't see why you want me to quote the official study. I know of it but do not recall the name so just google the words "wage gap study".
There's been a number of studies that inquire into the nature of the wage gap done. I'm not sure what one you are referring to. If I don't know what you're talking about then I have no idea how I can be expected to respond.

On your point of the question of women working shorter hours, i think that is a stupid question as you're basically looking for a reason to blame men/society for the fact women don't work as long. Commend men don't protect women.
Should I take this as "I don't know" or "I don't want to answer"? I'm good to fill you in on the reasoning if you either a) can't come to it yourself or b) are reluctant to come to it because you realise it undermines your argument.

And why is it stupid to blame society when society is at fault?

---

And what does 'commend' mean (in this context)?

It doesn't matter about society at all
You'll find that society has a lot to do with shaping the way people think and act and so forth.

It's why people spend several years of their lives getting degrees in fields like sociology.

And i think the best example of how 'society' doesn't influence your life is the fact that martin Luther king was black in the 60s. He could have been like everyone else and accept that they will be discriminated against. But he didn't so if he can be one of the most influential people ever.
This is called "cherry picking".

I'm also not saying people aren't able to break their socially enforced mould or resist socialisation.

why cant a women in a first world country now get a 'manly' job
I never said they couldn't.

The argument is that they're reluctant to as a result of social pressures etc.

[Harry Smith]

And i think the best example of how 'society' doesn't influence your life is the fact that martin Luther king was black in the 60s. He could have been like everyone else and accept that they will be discriminated against. But he didn't so if he can be one of the most influential people ever, why cant a women in a first world country now get a 'manly' job

Sorry but that's complete bollocks. If you actually knew anything about the civil rights you wouldn't claim that MLK is some sort of savior-he didn't actually help to get change-he was merely a front

Martin Luther king was an educated, articulated southerner who didn't understand the problems that faced America. MLK didn't break the barrier by simply because he tried hard.

I also find it stupid that you state 'he could of been like everyone else' Do you really think he was the only person who stood up to civil rights?

[Broken Toy]

I'm not going to do this.

A study of the job negotiations of graduating professional school students found that male students were eight times more likely to negotiate starting salaries and pay than female students. A survey by the same researchers found that more than twice as many women than men said they felt "a great deal of apprehension" about "negotiating". Some studies of simulated salary negotiations have also found that men on average negotiated more aggressively than women. Other studies, however, have found no gender difference in pay negotiations. Barry Gerhart and Sara Rymes (1991) investigated the salary negotiating behaviors and starting salary outcomes of graduating MBA students and found that women did not negotiate less than men. However, women did obtain lower monetary returns from negotiation. Over the course of a career, the accumulation of such differences may be substantial, according to the researchers.
your entire argument basically boils down to society. I know of a good couple hundred maybe a thousand that i don't know women who do not blame soicety. If its cherry picking, why is it not the norm for a woman to be a feminist. And since you seem to never be satisfied with my answers, how about you don't expect a 4 page essay of an answer and reply as it is rather than repetitively question dodging by complaining about the answers i give. and there it is again, the fact you are blaming society for men trying to improve their situation by negotiating. Maybe its human nature, i don't know but you want to penalise men for negotiating just because women don't.
[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States#Negotiating_salaries

Here's also the answer I was looking for:

Women who do ask for a higher salary often face a "double bind" -- they can be perceived as either competent or likable, but not both. Women can be penalized for asking, because that action violates the cultural norm of women being "nice" and "accommodating." A woman who asks is often considered aggressive and unlikeable, and does not get the raise or the job, while her male counterpart, doing exactly the same thing, is rewarded. This largely unconscious bias, held by both men and women, inhibits women's agency in the workplace.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paula-gutlove/wage-gap-points-to-broade_b_5228789.html [/quote] heres a tip, don't take extracts from opinionated websites if it doesn't tell you that it is from a collection of FAIR studies. Your evidence of this is null.


[/quote] There's been a number of studies that inquire into the nature of the wage gap done. I'm not sure what one you are referring to. If I don't know what you're talking about then I have no idea how I can be expected to respond. [/quote]
Well you can respond through common sense. Any study will do as they all (that ive seen) give the answer of 77 to a dollar .

[/quote] Should I take this as "I don't know" or "I don't want to answer"? I'm good to fill you in on the reasoning if you either a) can't come to it yourself or b) are reluctant to come to it because you realise it undermines your argument. [/quote]
Now the fact you like to try and use condescension tactics and pull things out of the air while you employ these yourself is just poor in a debate. It was a simple enough statement that you seem to want to demonize men for (whatever reason it may be) being more ambitious than women. Men don't have control over a woman's dreams. My sister, since she was 3 wanted to be a nurse. Its not the most well paying job, its not a world changer but its her dream and she is now a nurse.
On the other hand, Richard Branson dreamed of being a world changer. Is it societys fault that a four your old dreams of a job.
[/quote]
And why is it stupid to blame society when society is at fault?
[/quote] if you had some sort of evidence that it was society then that is understandable. How is it societys fault that (quoting some study, haven't got the link) women tend to settle into a job that's more enjoyable whereas men pursuit a less enjoyable job with more money
---
I used the quote words because i cant quote sections from phone
.[/QUOTE]

[Harry Smith]

your entire argument basically boils down to society. I know of a good couple hundred maybe a thousand that i don't know women who do not blame soicety. If its cherry picking, why is it not the norm for a woman to be a feminist. And since you seem to never be satisfied with my answers, how about you don't expect a 4 page essay of an answer and reply as it is rather than repetitively question dodging by complaining about the answers i give. and there it is again, the fact you are blaming society for men trying to improve their situation by negotiating. Maybe its human nature, i don't know but you want to penalise men for negotiating just because women don't.


What the fuck does Richard Branson have to to do with it?

You just seem to pick out a random male figure and then claim that it shows men are better.

Why do men dominate all the positions in our society? Look at the government-we've got 3 women in a cabinet out of 22

Only 22% of MP's are female, we've never have a female chancellor or foreign secretary.

It's clear that men dominate key positions in society, you can't deny that

[Broken Toy]

What the fuck does Richard Branson have to to do with it?

You just seem to pick out a random male figure and then claim that it shows men are better.

Why do men dominate all the positions in our society? Look at the government-we've got 3 women in a cabinet out of 22

Only 22% of MP's are female, we've never have a female chancellor or foreign secretary.

It's clear that men dominate key positions in society, you can't deny that

Well yes but what im saying is that men aren't controlling demons. There is no special rules for men and women. There are a lot of people who blame society for their struggles (which is, a lot, not all of the time, their own fault) but there are also a few thousand women in first world countries who don't blame society because they know society isn't to blame. I bet jk Rowling doesn't blame society. She actually decided to try and do something for herself and is now worth something like 4 billion. What's stopping other women.

[Harry Smith]

. I bet jk Rowling doesn't blame society. She actually decided to try and do something for herself and is now worth something like 4 billion. What's stopping other women.

You didn't answer my point, you just skipped round it. Why do you think men control all the top positions in the united kingdom? Your starting to sound like a tory.

JK rowling has actually been a vocal critic of the fact that single mums are having their benefits cut.

You tried this crappy argument with MLK, and it didn't work. One women being successful doesn't prove the system works, it shows that women can do well despite the limitations in place

[Broken Toy]

You didn't answer my point, you just skipped round it. Why do you think men control all the top positions in the united kingdom? Your starting to sound like a tory.

JK rowling has actually been a vocal critic of the fact that single mums are having their benefits cut.

You tried this crappy argument with MLK, and it didn't work. One women being successful doesn't prove the system works, it shows that women can do well despite the limitations in place

The system isn't limiting women. And how can you say i skipped your point when my whole post was saying that even though men DO dominate key positions and in England especially theyre all dicks but they are not trying to limit women.
In England the tories are limiting the working class, that's me! And no, it did work with mlk its just that you and the other guy left it out. If a black person in a time when black people weren't seen as lower than whites but it was common knowledge they were, can be one of the most inspirational people in history, then im sure that women in first world countries can aspire too.

Also, just because single mothers (and im guessing it was single parents because a rule against just women would never pass because of the sexism in it) had their benefits cut does not prove jk Rowling believes women are, what's the word feminists use, opressed.

I think that yeah, things are unfair in certain aspects for both women AND men, but we should work the countries where there is greater inequalities up to the level of fwc's before we demand complete equality

[Vlerchan]

heres a tip, don't take extracts from opinionated websites if it doesn't tell you that it is from a collection of FAIR studies. Your evidence of this is null.
I made the claim that woman were worse negotiators. I substantiated this claim with a link to wikipedia, which substantiated its own claims with a host of studies. I presume we have no issues there.

In regards to the HuffPost link it was offering an opinion that I supported as to why the above occurs. I can't understand how you would have a problem with that. If you have issues with the opinion given then feel free to a) offer a critique of the opinion and b) construct your own opposition narrative which I myself can critique. Just saying you won't accept it and offering nothing besides that doesn't help.

Well you can respond through common sense. Any study will do as they all (that ive seen) give the answer of 77 to a dollar.
Some studies claim that the gap is 5% to 7% and some claim it's somewhere between that and 23%. It depends what you take into account as legitimate. Now that we've got that sorted I would like an explanation as to why you find the studies results too 'vague' because just calling it 'vague' isn't helpful in helping me gauge your opinion on the matter.

It was a simple enough statement that you seem to want to demonize men for (whatever reason it may be) being more ambitious than women.

I was going to make the point that as a result of socialisation woman are more inclined to take more flexible jobs and work less hours in order to engage in child-reading activities amongst other duties. I'm not demonising men as much as I'm demonising society-at-large, which holds woman giving up on their ambitions to for men to be the socially acceptable thing to do. Note how the pay-gap widens when woman start having children.

Mothers earn about 7 percent less per child than childless women. For women under 35 years of age, the wage gap between mothers and women without children (http://www.abstracts.asanet.org/images/members/docs/pdf/featured/motherwage.pdf) is greater than the gap between women and men.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2012/04/16/11391/the-top-10-facts-about-the-wage-gap/

Men don't have control over a woman's dreams.
I believe that we take in information through our sense organs, process it in our brains and then base our actions (inc. thoughts and dreams) on this information in a dot-to-dot, deterministic fashion. I don't believe that thoughts can emerge spontaneously from within because literally nothing supports this. If you believe as I do, that our actions are reactions to external stimuli, then it becomes impossible to deny the massive role that society plays in shaping our thoughts (dreams, ambitions, actions, etc.). In order to prove that society then does have a role on where people end up you just need look to employment figures for each sector.

Eg:

Women in STEM fields are often underrepresented, holding less than 25% of the jobs in the U.S. and 13% in the UK (2012). In the United States, studies have been conducted to explain this pattern, such as mechanisms in recruitment and hiring processes. On average, women in STEM fields earn 33% more than those in non-STEM professions. They also experience a smaller wage gap compared to men. However, women can be found as leaders in top professions around the country. These include the U.S. Department of Defense, NASA, and the National Science Foundation (NSF).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields#Women

From the above it can be drawn that men are socialised into skills, interest, etc. that make them more likely to engage in STEM employment. Because socialisation is natural to residing in any society I can safely say that the current turn of events is societies fault.

---

If a black person in a time when black people weren't seen as lower than whites but it was common knowledge they were, can be one of the most inspirational people in history, then im sure that women in first world countries can aspire too.
Again, nobodies saying that individual woman can't break through the social divide and be inspirational and stuff.

This is your problem. You're approaching a sociological discussion, a discussion about the social constructions and institutions, etc., that shape our lives with a real individual-centric mindset. I shouldn't need to point out that this is wrong: it makes no sense to point to a few people who made it and then draw from it that everything is dandy. It's great that J.K Rowling made it big in her writing, a profession I'll add that's never suffered from its lack of female participation the last couple of hundred years, but that in no way refutes any single point that I've made: it does not refute the idea that men and woman are socialised differently, that men and woman consequently act differently, and that men and woman consequently earn differently.

[Broken Toy]

I made the claim that woman were worse negotiators. I substantiated this claim with a link to wikipedia, which substantiated its own claims with a host of studies. I presume we have no issues there.

In regards to the HuffPost link it was offering an opinion that I supported as to why the above occurs. I can't understand how you would have a problem with that. If you have issues with the opinion given then feel free to a) offer a critique of the opinion and b) construct your own opposition narrative which I myself can critique. Just saying you won't accept it and offering nothing besides that doesn't help.


Some studies claim that the gap is 5% to 7% and some claim it's somewhere between that and 23%. It depends what you take into account as legitimate. Now that we've got that sorted I would like an explanation as to why you find the studies results too 'vague' because just calling it 'vague' isn't helpful in helping me gauge your opinion on the matter.



I was going to make the point that as a result of socialisation woman are more inclined to take more flexible jobs and work less hours in order to engage in child-reading activities amongst other duties. I'm not demonising men as much as I'm demonising society-at-large, which holds woman giving up on their ambitions to for men to be the socially acceptable thing to do. Note how the pay-gap widens when woman start having children.

Mothers earn about 7 percent less per child than childless women. For women under 35 years of age, the wage gap between mothers and women without children (http://www.abstracts.asanet.org/images/members/docs/pdf/featured/motherwage.pdf) is greater than the gap between women and men.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2012/04/16/11391/the-top-10-facts-about-the-wage-gap/


I believe that we take in information through our sense organs, process it in our brains and then base our actions (inc. thoughts and dreams) on this information in a dot-to-dot, deterministic fashion. I don't believe that thoughts can emerge spontaneously from within because literally nothing supports this. If you believe as I do, that our actions are reactions to external stimuli, then it becomes impossible to deny the massive role that society plays in shaping our thoughts (dreams, ambitions, actions, etc.). In order to prove that society then does have a role on where people end up you just need look to employment figures for each sector.

Eg:

Women in STEM fields are often underrepresented, holding less than 25% of the jobs in the U.S. and 13% in the UK (2012). In the United States, studies have been conducted to explain this pattern, such as mechanisms in recruitment and hiring processes. On average, women in STEM fields earn 33% more than those in non-STEM professions. They also experience a smaller wage gap compared to men. However, women can be found as leaders in top professions around the country. These include the U.S. Department of Defense, NASA, and the National Science Foundation (NSF).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields#Women

From the above it can be drawn that men are socialised into skills, interest, etc. that make them more likely to engage in STEM employment. Because socialisation is natural to residing in any society I can safely say that the current turn of events is societies fault.

---


Again, nobodies saying that individual woman can't break through the social divide and be inspirational and stuff.

This is your problem. You're approaching a sociological discussion, a discussion about the social constructions and institutions, etc., that shape our lives with a real individual-centric mindset. I shouldn't need to point out that this is wrong: it makes no sense to point to a few people who made it and then draw from it that everything is dandy. It's great that J.K Rowling made it big in her writing, a profession I'll add that's never suffered from its lack of female participation the last couple of hundred years, but that in no way refutes any single point that I've made: it does not refute the idea that men and woman are socialised differently, that men and woman consequently act differently, and that men and woman consequently earn differently.

I have been trying to use different examples and explanations to get my point across in a way that doesn't make you think im against women but also not saying it without a doubt so i cam accept your view point. I do not believe society plays as big a part as you think it does and you repetitively talk about society when ive said i do not agree with that point.

On a related note, going back to the original post too, im not against equal rights, i just do not believe there is as much evidence proving the wage gap as there is disproving it.
I also believe both MRA and feminism are sexist movements since both believe that equal rights can be obtained through the rights of one gender.

[Vlerchan]

I do not believe society plays as big a part as you think it does and you repetitively talk about society when ive said i do not agree with that point.
Feel free to offer refutations to the points I'm making about socialisation then.

I explained in the post you just quoted why I feel society plays such an important role. I'm hoping that if we start at the very basis of my opinions then you might have an easier time showing me where I'm going wrong.

i just do not believe there is as much evidence proving the wage gap as there is disproving it.
Like what? (i.e., provide this evidence).

Please note that I've offered claims of covert sexism (via socialisation) in response to men working more etc.

I also believe both MRA and feminism are sexist movements since both believe that equal rights can be obtained through the rights of one gender.
I'm a Radical Feminist. I've no interest in allocating rights, because rights by themselves don't bring the necessary change.

[Harry Smith]

And no, it did work with mlk its just that you and the other guy left it out. If a black person in a time when black people weren't seen as lower than whites but it was common knowledge they were, can be one of the most inspirational people in history, then im sure that women in first world countries can aspire too.



Ok-lets have a look at Martin Luther King.

Schooling-By 1968 57% of schools were still segregated
Crime-Police brutality still occured against the black community
Draft-More blacks were drafted into the US military in the late 60's than whites
Housing-Blacks still faced poorer low quality housing-especially in Ghettos
Political representation-Even after MLK march on washington Black's still weren't given a fair chance in the primary elections
Healthcare-Illnesses like sickle cell were still greatly ignored and many blacks failed to get adequate healthcare.

I'd be more than happy to expand on any of these points.

Your foolish if you think that MLK came along in the 1950's and suddenly fixed all the problems for the black community, your foolish if you think that he was the only person to stand up for the black community when people had been doing it since the 1870's.

MLK didn't just come along and solve every single problem that existed. Martin Luther King sold himself out to the democrat party in the 1960's and hindered the civil rights movment.


I'm a Radical Feminist. I've no interest in allocating rights, because rights by themselves don't bring the necessary change.

Hence why we needed second and third wave feminism

[Broken Toy]

Ok-lets have a look at Martin Luther King.

Schooling-By 1968 57% of schools were still segregated
Crime-Police brutality still occured against the black community
Draft-More blacks were drafted into the US military in the late 60's than whites
Housing-Blacks still faced poorer low quality housing-especially in Ghettos
Political representation-Even after MLK march on washington Black's still weren't given a fair chance in the primary elections
Healthcare-Illnesses like sickle cell were still greatly ignored and many blacks failed to get adequate healthcare.

I'd be more than happy to expand on any of these points.

Your foolish if you think that MLK came along in the 1950's and suddenly fixed all the problems for the black community, your foolish if you think that he was the only person to stand up for the black community when people had been doing it since the 1870's.

MLK didn't just come along and solve every single problem that existed. Martin Luther King sold himself out to the democrat party in the 1960's and hindered the civil rights movment.



Hence why we needed second and third wave feminism

Im arguing with 1 radical feminist and what i assume is a second. No wonder you both take my posts out of context and be generally poor at debating.
You're too busy refuting everyone elses opinions you forget to justify your own.

You KNOW i didn't think mlk was the only one but its a famous one so its understandable to everyone. If i search for someone who isn't well known thenpeople may not understand the point i make.

If you're both feminists, in my eyes you're sexist by the way, so im pretty done trying to have a decent debate when you would rather refute my points than make any effort to justify your own. Also, stop talking about sexism vlerchan when you are a sexist...

[Vlerchan]

Im arguing with 1 radical feminist and what i assume is a second. No wonder you both take my posts out of context and be generally poor at debating.
Lol.

You're too busy refuting everyone elses opinions you forget to justify your own.
Please quote any unsubstantiated claims I've made. Thank you.

If you're both feminists, in my eyes you're sexist by the way, so im pretty done trying to have a decent debate when you would rather refute my points than make any effort to justify your own.
Please quote any unsubstantiated claims I have made. Thank you.

Also, stop talking about sexism vlerchan when you are a sexist...
When you've run out of intelligent things to say it's usually best to just leave the thread.

[Harry Smith]

how many times have me and Vlerchan been called poor debaters in this thread? About 5

You've managed to replace BritishBoy as the resident troll

[Broken Toy]

Lol.


Please quote any unsubstantiated claims I've made. Thank you.


Please quote any unsubstantiated claims I have made. Thank you.


When you've run out of intelligent things to say it's usually best to just leave the thread.

I have better things to do than to trawl through 2 pages of posts i disagree with Just for you. You're not that special.
And i think that your last sentence there just proved everything everyone thought about radical feminists. You just refute what everyone else says because you will not debate something if you cant win it. Shame tactics don't suprise me

[Harry Smith]

I have better things to do than to trawl through 2 pages of posts i disagree with Just for you. You're not that special.


Mate like the rest of us your on a debate page on a teen forum at 11 PM, we quite clearly have nothing better to do

Im arguing with 1 radical feminist and what i assume is a second. No wonder you both take my posts out of context and be generally poor at debating.
You're too busy refuting everyone elses opinions you forget to justify your own.

You KNOW i didn't think mlk was the only one but its a famous one so its understandable to everyone. If i search for someone who isn't well known thenpeople may not understand the point i make.

If you're both feminists, in my eyes you're sexist by the way, so im pretty done trying to have a decent debate when you would rather refute my points than make any effort to justify your own. Also, stop talking about sexism vlerchan when you are a sexist...

Nice debating there, you quite clearly have no idea about Martin Luther King or the civil rights era. Why bring something up if you have no knowledge on it

[Broken Toy]

Mate like the rest of us your on a debate page on a teen forum at 11 PM, we quite clearly have nothing better to do



Nice debating there, you quite clearly have no idea about Martin Luther King or the civil rights era. Why bring something up if you have no knowledge on it

Actually im talking to people and watching American pie. My phone is just by my side.

The shaming tactics are.making a comeback. You would rather try to make me feel uneducated than simply allow me to make a point about martin Luther king in relation to a statement i made without knowing the whole of American history.
Egalitarians don't shame people x

[Vlerchan]

Have a nice remainder to your day, Broken Toy.

I'm not interested in responding to your irrelevancies.

[Harry Smith]

.

The shaming tactics are.making a comeback. You would rather try to make me feel uneducated than simply allow me to make a point about martin Luther king in relation to a statement i made without knowing the whole of American history.
Egalitarians don't shame people x

No, your point about MLK was crap because you don't know anything about MLK because it ignored every piece of information about Civil rights. It's just be saying 'Gay people have equality because Harvery Milk got elected in 1978''.

Your point about MLK had no relevance and at best was weak as nuns piss.

It's not shaming-if you make a shit point I'm calling to say it's a shit point.

Plus look

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/557375-very-early-on-in-writing-the-series-i-remember-a

[Plane And Simple]

Lol.


Please quote any unsubstantiated claims I've made. Thank you.


Please quote any unsubstantiated claims I have made. Thank you.


When you've run out of intelligent things to say it's usually best to just leave the thread.

how many times have me and Vlerchan been called poor debaters in this thread? About 5

You've managed to replace BritishBoy as the resident troll

As you guys should know, because you use to frequent this subforum, Namecalling is not the way to go in ROTW. As much as you want your point to be accepted, we don't tolerate this kind of behaviour. If it reiterates the thread will be locked and action will be taken.
~P&S

[dakeep18]

i don't know ts even stated in the amendments that they shouldn't be

[Karkat]

i don't know ts even stated in the amendments that they shouldn't be

It doesn't have to be. It should be common sense. Women aren't lesser to men.

[DeadEyes]

It's just ironic that in a society pretending to be sophisticated and fair, sexism and general lack of equity still reigns supreme.