credentialism and elitism in education

[phuckphace]

elitism in education is one of my biggest pet peeves. the extreme expense of obtaining the education necessary for the most high-paid, high-demand employment prohibits a good percentage of the populace from gaining upward mobility. as more and more diplomas are basically purchased outright using trust fund money, it becomes more and more about the mere possession of a degree than about how much you actually know. even if you are actually incompetent, you get in because your actual skills don't matter that much.

these spoiled brats go on to become managers in companies and display their obnoxious incompetence everywhere. worker morale in general suffers as the levels of stupidity and incompetence at the top rise higher and higher. this leads to high turnover (i.e. large numbers of people who voluntarily quit) which the company can use to its advantage by starting more replacement workers at the lowest possible wage. a more fragmented work staff is also less likely to unionize.

I've seen some pretty bad doozies from the managerial class. Just recently at work, I saw a printed internal e-mail from the District Manager (basically, the bosses' bosses' bosses' boss) bitching about some kind of transaction that wasn't allowed. from memory, the end part read something like:

Please remember: NO PERSONAL CHECK'S [sic] WITH RELOADABLE CREDIT CARDS!!!! This policy will be strickly [sic] enforced. If you have any question's [sic] I can be reached at 555-555-5555. Im [sic] out of the office on Sat and Snd.

credentialism at work. bear in mind that this person earns in excess of $150,000 per year plus bonuses (upper middle class in this part of the country) and has a BUSINESS DEGREE likely purchased with parent's money. but in spite of her flashy credentials, she is semi-illiterate and struggles with rudimentary grammar and spelling with grim results (but does not appear to struggle with CAPSLAWK at all). her spontaneous coinage of a brand new abbreviation for "Sunday" was a nice finishing touch.

my blood pressure goes through the roof when I realize there are people who are ten times as dumb as me (which is saying a lot) making 20 times more than I do and doing an order of magnitude less work. I blame the over-valuation of college degrees for this, as it has led to widespread degree snobbery and creates a barrier to entry for regular people who want in on the action too.

[Gamma Male]

This is why I plan on going to MIT or Caltech on financial aid. 10x better than Ivy League and not full of bratty privileged assholes.

[Harry Smith]

Funniest thing is that most of these people get carried through £27,000 a year schooling and then get a place in Oxbridge however once they get into uni they end up doing much worse because they've been spoon feed their entire life

[Jean Poutine]

I remember reading somewhere that until quite recently, a Ph.D in conducting (leading orchestras) simply did not exist. When universities created them, you suddenly had to have this Ph.D for any conducting activity including part-time local choral work.

I agree with you that credentialism is a big problem, but only coupled with a drop in standards. Requiring proof that one has attained a certain expertise is no trouble. However, purchasing power rising everywhere, student loans being ubiquitous with low interest rates and centralized and a new focus towards education led to many people seeking university degrees. Colleges responded by hiking up their fees. As more people come to study, some of them develop expectations because they pay so much money to attend college. They expect nothing less than to get out with a degree, no matter their grades, so colleges, again, respond to their clientele by lowering the standards and making it quite easy to pass and get a degree, so the "client" gets his "money's worth", and welcome to private, for-profit tertiary education. I'm pretty sure the academic standards in higher-level education are quite farcical compared to 30-40 years ago. I know of more than one college that offers credited classes in useless pseudo-academia like homeopathy and even parapsychology (meaning PK and the like).

In some domains, like the humanities, the market becomes utterly saturated. This means employers have to ask of their prospective employees a higher standard of education, such as a master's instead of a bachelor's, or a bachelor's instead of a GED/high school degree. To be able to get enough credentialed students out there to sustain the market, colleges lower standards again.

In the end, a drop in standards along with a rise in the level of the credentials requested means that a lot of people have degrees that they simply should not have in jobs they should never hold. It's not really something where social class or financial means matter, it's a whole college-centric problem. The bachelor's degree is the new high school degree, and the problem is that people still give some subjective value to these pieces of paper, so they are astonished that an MBA grad (I assume) cannot spell. Fact of the matter is that it's easy as pie to get a college degree.

I've heard people say law school was hard, yet here I am with an A- average, on the way to a master's (which thankfully I take much more seriously than my LL.B) and all I did for three years was smoke weed, play video games and very occasionally read 20 pages out of 100 for the week then getting bored, and I'm not going to a shitty law school. I got an A+ in a subject for which I never went to class, never even read the law it explored, much less the jurisprudence or the textbook doctrine before the exams. I just went for the two exams and that was it, since all law exams are open book (they weren't 40 years ago, see what I mean?) I just read the law on the spot, skimmed quickly through the jurisprudence and used the index of my textbook. It was supposed to be a "hard" class too. I am not that smart, I am not trying to brag, college just is that easy. People who find present tertiary education challenging probably have little business there in the first place.

[britishboy]

More public school brats hating the middle and upper classes because they go to better schools and will do better in life. JEALOUSY.

[phuckphace]

More public school brats hating the middle and upper classes because they go to better schools and will do better in life. JEALOUSY.

http://i.imgur.com/T7iJ9Xl.png

[Harry Smith]

More public school brats hating the middle and upper classes because they go to better schools and will do better in life. JEALOUSY.

Even though all the evidence suggests that those who go to private schools will do a lot worse at university

[Vlerchan]

More public school brats hating the middle and upper classes because they go to better schools and will do better in life. JEALOUSY.
Lol.

What Harry Smith said.

[Left Now]

More public school brats hating the middle and upper classes because they go to better schools and will do better in life. JEALOUSY.

I don't seem to agree with you in this part,good education in private schools doesn't necessarily mean good education in universities;Many of those who are graduated from public schools can do extremely better in universities than many others who have paid more for their education.Although having a good education doesn't necessarily mean doing better in life and be more successful.

By the way,How are you doing?

[britishboy]

Even though all the evidence suggests that those who go to private schools will do a lot worse at university

I've never read that evidence but they do do better at work and in life.

I don't seem to agree with you in this part,good education in private schools doesn't necessarily mean good education in universities;Many of those who are graduated from public schools can do extremely better in universities than many others who have paid more for their education.Although having a good education doesn't necessarily mean doing better in life and be more successful.

By the way,How are you doing?

You're completely right I'm just fed up with poor people hating on hard working rich people instead of working hard themselves. I an doing good you?

Please do not double post. -Cygnus David

[Harry Smith]

I've never read that evidence but they do do better at work and in life.

Looks like your friends are going to struggle in 3 years time compared to the scum I go to school with-http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jun/16/accesstouniversity-private-schools.co.uk


You're completely right I'm just fed up with poor people hating on hard working rich people instead of working hard themselves. I an doing good you?

Lol you missed his point-he was referring to free education, he's clearly disagreeing with you...

don't seem to agree with you in this part.Many of those who are graduated from public schools (state schools in the UK) can do extremely better in universities than many others who have paid more for their education

you seem obsessed with poor people, this still applies though

http://cdn.justpo.st/images/2014/01/5448ea0d749078ae98311135ba09a22b.jpg

[Gamma Male]

You're completely right I'm just fed up with poor people hating on hard working rich people instead of working hard themselves. I an doing good you?


You're right! All of those lazy single moms with three jobs and construction workers supporting family's of seven should just get off their asses and start being CEO's at corporations!


Seriously though, I'm genuinely unsure as to whether or not you're trolling. If so, fuck off. If not, still fuck off. Did you have to work hard to get to where you're at, or were you born into wealth?

[Vlerchan]

He's not trolling. He's just never been outside his upper-middle class bubble.

[Gamma Male]

He's not trolling. He's just never been outside his upper-middle class bubble.

So in other words, he's never had to sell his Wii to help pay off the loan his dad took from a payday loan place, or had to sleep in a room with 4 other people, or had to be on foodstamps because constant over the road truck driving doesn't pay enough to support a family of 6 and his mom has epilepsy and can't get a job, or had to worry about how to afford medicine for his schizophrenic younger brother who's hospital bills are in the thousands of dollars.

[britishboy]

Looks like your friends are going to struggle in 3 years time compared to the scum I go to school with-http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jun/16/accesstouniversity-private-schools.co.uk




http://www.parentdish.co.uk/teen/why-private-schools-are-better-than-state/

http://m.bbc.com/news/education-21659908

http://m.bbc.com/news/education-26015535

I have no problem with poor people I just hate poor people who want others money and moan as they claim benefits!

As for the image it is a clever play on words but it's no argument in your favor. Two of the first images are in black and white suggesting they're old and the second three images are teenagers parting. Those on a yacht appear to be wealthy but the other two are just having fun, their wealth is not clear.

[britishboy]

So in other words, he's never had to sell his Wii to help pay off the loan his dad took from a payday loan place, or had to sleep in a room with 4 other people, or had to be on foodstamps because constant over the road truck driving doesn't pay enough to support a family of 6 and his mom has epilepsy and can't get a job, or had to worry about how to afford medicine for his schizophrenic younger brother who's hospital bills are in the thousands of dollars.

I've never owned an Nintendo Wii actually! :o The horror! Should I set up a charity for those without the Nintendo Wii or have had to sell theirs? Also hospital bills are an American problem.

[Vlerchan]

As for the image it is a clever play on words but it's no argument in your favor.
You'll find that the money rich people earn is by-and-large just the surplus value of the worker's labour.

I'm also being as unequivocal as possible here.

[britishboy]

You'll find that the money rich people earn is by-and-large just the surplus value of the worker's labour.

I'm also being as unequivocal as possible here.

They're wealthy because they're the brains whereas the labourers are just labour!

[Vlerchan]

They're wealthy because they're the brains whereas the labourers are just labour!
If you decide to make a relevent response then I'll consider making my own.

[Harry Smith]

Why the fuck do we bother with BritishBigot? Statments like this make me wonder

They're wealthy because they're the brains whereas the labourers are just labour!

[Gamma Male]

They're wealthy because they're the brains whereas the labourers are just labour!

No, 9 out of 10 times they're wealthy because they were born into fucking wealth. You need to stop acting like all poor people are just lazy fucks, because they're fucking not. Until you've tried getting by on your own without any help from your parents, stop bitching about how poor people are lazy and entitled and just want to leech off of other people, because that's YOU. You didn't have anything to do with your parents being rich. You didn't "earn" any of the money you've had. Very few rich people have.

Also, considering that the vast majority of people on welfare are either working one or more minimum wage jobs and still not making enough to get by, or disabled, your claims about them leeching off of the system are bullshit. If anything, it's the greedy capitalist scum fucks who're leeching off of their workers by not paying them enough to get by and treat them like crap.

I don't have a problem with all rich people or corporations, just the ones that exploit their employees by treating them unfairly.

[phuckphace]

Also hospital bills are an American problem.

so you cry about proles taking public benefits and yet you use NHS services yourself :lol3: yes tell us all about how everyone who takes benefits is leeching from hard-working rich people *is 15 years old* *lives with parents*

[Ethe14]

No, 9 out of 10 times they're wealthy because they were born into fucking wealth. You need to stop acting like all poor people are just lazy fucks, because they're fucking not. Until you've tried getting by on your own without any help from your parents, stop bitching about how poor people are lazy and entitled and just want to leech off of other people, because that's YOU. You didn't have anything to do with your parents being rich. You didn't "earn" any of the money you've had. Very few rich people have.

Also, considering that the vast majority of people on welfare are either working one or more minimum wage jobs and still not making enough to get by, or disabled, your claims about them leeching off of the system are bullshit. If anything, it's the greedy capitalist scum fucks who're leeching off of their workers by not paying them enough to get by and treat them like crap.

I don't have a problem with all rich people or corporations, just the ones that exploit their employees by treating them unfairly.

I consider myself upper middle class and my parents worked extremely hard for everything they have. This means they got straight A's in school and got a semi scholarship to Stanford and MIT. Got jobs both at Lockheed Martin and worked their way up. Your statement about 9 out of 10 wealthy people are born into wealth doesn't seem correct. http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/magazine/summer-2013/billionaires-self-made
Mind you that was about billionaires, not even the millionaires.

The part about poor people leeching off of the system I agree with you. There was a report that I saw that mentioned that even millionaires were using well fare and abusing the system. I am in favor of the welfare system because it does help people who need it most.

Just keep in mind please that most people who do have wealth built it by themselves and it didn't just come to them. They worked hard and were determined enough to get it.

[phuckphace]

Just keep in mind please that most people who do have wealth built it by themselves and it didn't just come to them. They worked hard and were determined enough to get it.

success is gained through a combination of luck, being in the right place at the right time, and hard work (but mostly the first two).

it's a moot point though, since nobody is entitled to every cent they come across.

[Vlerchan]

Just keep in mind please that most people who do have wealth built it by themselves and it didn't just come to them.
Untrue. Your article is also misleading.

It's true that only a minority of the Forbes 400 were born into that list, i.e., inherited the money that put them there, but that doesn't mean the rest didn't get a substantial amount of help (i.e., were born into lesser wealth).

United for a Fair Economy breaks down the Forbes list using a baseball analogy. It says 35 percent of the list was born in the “batter’s box,” with a lower-middle class or middle-class background.[/b]

http://m.cnbc.com/us_news/49167533/2

It is a minority that got on the Forbes 400 through hard work, and most of that 'hard work' was financial speculation.

Mind you that was about billionaires, not even the millionaires.
You can be sure it gets worse.

[britishboy]

so you cry about proles taking public benefits and yet you use NHS services yourself :lol3: yes tell us all about how everyone who takes benefits is leeching from hard-working rich people *is 15 years old* *lives with parents*

I have private health care...

[Harry Smith]

I have private health care...

And if you needed an ambulance who would provide that... the NHS

In most cases, private hospitals do not have intensive care units or high dependency units so, if you need emergency treatment after a road accident, a heart attack or after developing a ruptured appendix, your surgery will usually take place in the NHS

Read more: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/private-healthcare/what-does-private-medical-insurance-not-cover.htm#ixzz37CpX3QJv
Follow us: @NetDoctor on Twitter | NetDoctorUK on Facebook

Generally, private medical insurance will not cover you for:
problems related to drug or alcohol abuse.
HIV or AIDS.
fertility treatment or normal pregnancy.
cosmetic surgery or sex reassignment.
corrective eyesight surgery (eg LASIK)
injuries that are self-inflicted or result from dangerous sports or pastimes.
Anything not specifically listed on the policy.


Read more: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/private-healthcare/what-does-private-medical-insurance-not-cover.htm#ixzz37Cpd5Bfi
Follow us: @NetDoctor on Twitter | NetDoctorUK on Facebook

[Jean Poutine]

Britishboy is 15, probably never held a job to speak of in his life and does not know the value of a single dollar because he's been provided for all his life by his parents' abnormally large income. That's why he likes to think us proles don't work hard enough for our few dollars and if we worked harder, we'd get as many dollars as his parents do. Just ignore him.

To go back to the new direction of this thread :

I think success is tied to ambition, but the wrong kind of ambition, a manipulative, crooked kind of ambition. I remember reading that the holders of most jobs with either very high incomes or huge amounts of social power (they often intersect, in any case) were very likely to show signs of sociopathic personality. Interesting link here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8933000/8933370.stm).

So by logical extension it means a lot of rich people (probably the very richest) are real jerks. So does it really surprise anyone that there is even a debate on economic equality, always somebody trying to take our barleycakes when they've got a huge feast? Income inequality is the root cause of a huge number of problems, and the sociopaths and their brainwashed followers call for ever less to be given to us, and ever more to be given to them, and sometimes they succeed, even though it should be in the interest of everyone to flatten income inequality however possible.

So basically it's just a testosterone problem.

[phuckphace]

yeah it's very obvious to me that you pretty much have to be a sociopath to get ahead in today's business culture. if you don't stab people in the back and/or lie constantly to get the results you need, you won't get anywhere.

but then again the point of this thread wasn't to start a good old fashioned CLASS WAR, I'm just mainly concerned with the lack of opportunities for upward mobility that the current system has on offer for the every-day man. people like britishboy want us to believe that the system is a true meritocracy, i.e. hard work is always honestly and fairly rewarded in practice, and the people who "made it" thus far probably deserve it. takes all of about 10 seconds to figure out that things just don't work like that in practice. everywhere you turn, there is some grasping sociopathic ladder-climber who will throw 1,000 of his coworkers under the bus if it means he'll get the promotion over everyone else. companies like Microsoft even have the balls to lay off thousands of employees (16,000?) while continuing to lobby for increased H1B quotas. yes, that sounds like the perfect place to move up, in a company that openly salivates over the prospect of replacing you with a foreign temp worker from India whose salary is a third of yours. business schools openly encourage this self-seeking behavior through Milton Friedman hagiographies and a general enthusiasm for no-holds-barred greed.

I don't get the "sociopath" vibe from Britishboy, so it'll be interesting to see how well he fares in the real world once he joins it. my advice: start small and strangle a puppy to death every week or so, it'll help break you in for the times you'll be wrecking the livelihood of 1,000+ families per fiscal quarter with the stroke of a pen. THE LAYOFFS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL PROFIT MARGINS IMPROVE!