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Gamma Male
June 6th, 2014, 12:33 PM
When arguing with someone in an attempt to get at an answer or an explanation, you may come across a person who makes logical fallacies. Such discussions may prove futile. You might try asking for evidence and independent confirmation or provide other hypotheses that give a better or simpler explanation. If this fails, try to pinpoint the problem of your arguer's position. You might spot the problem of logic that prevents further exploration and attempt to inform your arguer about his fallacy. The following briefly describes some of the most common fallacies.

Just remember that this list is intended in no way as some formal rule book, but rather as a resource and guide to help people recognize errors in reasoning and sharpen their debating skills.

If you see someone using a logical fallacy, feel free to explain to them in your own words exactly why you believe their reasoning is flawed. But one thing I would ask that you do not do is simply link to this thread and say "wrong". This thread is intended as a glossary of common debate terms and tips, and is meant to help inspire people to form their own opinions using clear, valid reasoning. It is not meant to be a tool to be used to attack others opinions.

Ad Hominem/Personal Attacks: Latin for "to the man." An arguer who uses ad hominems attacks the person instead of the argument. Whenever an arguer cannot defend his position with evidence, facts or reason, he or she may resort to attacking an opponent either through: labeling, straw man arguments, name calling, offensive remarks and anger.

Straw Man: creating a false or made up scenario and then attacking it. (e.g., Evolutionists think that everything came about by random chance.) Most evolutionists think in terms of natural selection which may involve incidental elements, but does not depend entirely on random chance. Painting your opponent with false colors only deflects the purpose of the argument.

Begging The Question: assuming the conclusion of an argument in the initial premise, often in an indirect way.(e.g., free speech is beneficial to the state and cannot be taken away because it is an unalienable right which we cannot live prosperously without)

Red Herring: When the arguer diverts the attention by changing the subject.

Confusing Causation With Correlation: Assuming that because two things occured simultaneously one caused the other(e.g., Studies show that violent adults are more likely to have played violent videogames as children; therefore violent videogames cause violent behavior) But do they? Or are violent children just more likely to be drawn toward violent videogames?

Slippery Slope: Claiming that if something is allowed, it will lead to unrelated immoral behavior.(e.g., If we start allowing second cousins to marry, next thing you know horses will be marrying infants.)

No True Scotsman: An informal logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with an example, rather than denying it, this fallacy excludes the specific case without reference to any objective rule. (E.g., No real man would ever wear pink; therefore, it is impossible for men to wear pink; no true American would ever deface a flag, therefore Americans don't burn flags)

Argument From Association: Assuming an idea is invalid or immoral because of who has used or agreed with it in the past.(e.g., Hitler was a vegetarian and a mass murderer; therefore vegetarianism is bad)

Appeal To Ignorance: (argumentum ex silentio) Appealing to ignorance as evidence for something. (e.g., We have no evidence that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, therefore, he must exist. Or: Because we have no knowledge of alien visitors, that means they do not exist). Ignorance about something says nothing about its existence or non-existence.

Two Wrongs Make A Right: Trying to justify what we did by accusing someone else of doing the same. (e.g. how can you judge my actions when you do exactly the same thing?) The guilt of the accuser has no relevance to the discussion.

Argument From Omniscience: (e.g., All people believe in something. Everyone knows that.) An arguer would need omniscience to know about everyone's beliefs or disbeliefs or about their knowledge. Beware of words like "all," "everyone," "everything," "absolute."

Observational Selection: (similar to confirmation bias): Pointing out favorable circumstances while ignoring the unfavorable. Anyone who goes to Las Vegas gambling casinos will see people winning at the tables and slots. The casino managers make sure to install bells and whistles to announce the victors, while the losers never get mentioned. This may lead one to conclude that the chances of winning appear good while in actually just the reverse holds true.

Statistics Of Small Numbers: Similar to observational selection (e.g., My parents smoked all their lives and they never got cancer. Or: I don't care what others say about Yugos, my Yugo has never had a problem.) Simply because someone can point to a few favorable numbers says nothing about the overall chances.

Shifting The Burden Of Proof: When one cannot prove his own claims, he shifts the burden of proof to his opponent and demands they disprove him(e.g., Prove aliens don't exist!)

Loaded Questions: Embodies an assumption that, if answered, indicates an implied agreement. (e.g., Have you stopped beating your wife yet?)

Appeal To Tradition: (similar to the bandwagon fallacy): (e.g., astrology, religion, slavery) Just because people practice a tradition, says nothing about its viability.

Argument From Authority: (argumentum ad verecundiam): Using the words of an "expert" or authority as the bases of the argument instead of using the logic or evidence that supports an argument. (e.g., Professor so-and-so believes in evolution) Simply because an authority makes a claim does not necessarily mean he got it right. If an arguer presents the testimony from an expert, look to see if it accompanies reason and sources of evidence behind it.

Excluded Middle: (or false dichotomy): considering only the extremes. Many people use Aristotelian either/or logic tending to describe in terms of up/down, black/white, true/false, love/hate, etc. (e.g., You either like it or you don't. He either stands guilty or not guilty.) Many times, a continuum occurs between the extremes that people fail to see. The universe also contains many "maybes."

Appeal To Consequences: (argumentum ad consequentiam): An argument that concludes a premise (usually a belief) as either true or false based on whether the premise leads to desirable or undesirable consequences. Example: some religious people belief that knowledge of evolution leads to immorality, therefore evolution proves false. Even if teaching evolution did lead to immorality, it would not imply a falsehood of evolution.

Bandwagon Fallacy: Concluding that an idea has merit simply because many people believe it or practice it. Simply because many people may believe something says nothing about the fact of that something. For exaple many people during the Black plague believed that demons caused disease. The number of believers say nothing at all about the cause of disease.

Circular Reasoning: Stating in one's proposition that which one aims to prove. (e.g. God exists because the Bible says so; the Bible exists because God influenced it.)

Confirmation Bias: (similar to observational selection): This refers to a form of selective thinking that focuses on evidence that supports what believers already believe while ignoring evidence that refutes their beliefs. Confirmation bias plays a stronger role when people base their beliefs upon tradition and prejudice. For example, if someone believes in the power of vodoo, the believer will notice the rituals that seem to cause something to occur while ignoring the rituals which fail(which would indicate that voodoo rituals only work due to random chance or, when applied to health affects the placebo/nocebo effect

CosmicNoodle
June 6th, 2014, 12:35 PM
That must have took a LONG time to write....
Anyway, many good points made, hope this gets stuck

Camazotz
June 6th, 2014, 12:42 PM
Amen! I don't often consider logical fallacies when arguing, other than the common ones (red herring, strawman, ad hominem). I know they're there, but I hardly ever remember the names of them so I never identify them in peoples' arguments. Now I can have this open in a tab and consult it regularly. Thanks!

Typhlosion
June 6th, 2014, 01:07 PM
But... aliens DO exist! I mean, have YOU searched the WHOLE galaxy? :P

Joking aside, c'grats Donald. This will be one hell of an addition to the ROTW. Hope it gets stickied.

I did not understand the Loaded Questions though.

Miserabilia
June 6th, 2014, 01:19 PM
Great work, Donald!
10/10

Lovelife090994
June 6th, 2014, 02:28 PM
I thought the people in the suggestion section said not to post this? Because it would be over everyone's heads and give people a reason to keep anyone out of this site section?

Gamma Male
June 6th, 2014, 02:39 PM
I thought the people in the suggestion section said not to post this? Because it would be over everyone's heads and give people a reason to keep anyone out of this site section?

Actually, you and Emerald are the only ones who're opposed that I know of. I've gotten positive feedback from plenty of people, including CoolBeans, who gave me the go ahead to post it here and said he would consider stickying it after consulting with the other mods and whatnot.

I really don't understand the objections to this thread.

Maybe we should have a vote? :lol:

Lovelife090994
June 6th, 2014, 02:41 PM
Actually, you and Emerald are the only ones who're opposed that I know of. I've gotten positive feedback from plenty of people, including CoolBeans, who gave me the go ahead to post it here and said he would consider stickying it after consulting with the other mods and whatnot.

I really don't understand the objections to this thread.

Maybe we should have a vote? :Lol:

By all means do a vote. But I'd consider Emerald's words because she is a mod after all. Put the vote in the suggestion section. You may want to put limitations so no comes off as a jerk when using these. You can debate or whatever without being a selective hearing jerk.

Gamma Male
June 6th, 2014, 02:47 PM
By all means do a vote. But I'd consider Emerald's words because she is a mod after all. Put the vote in the suggestion section. You may want to put limitations so no comes off as a jerk when using these. You can debate or whatever without being a selective hearing jerk.

How exactly would using these terms in a debate make someone a jerk? And what do you mean "limitations"? This is just a reference, a guide. Besides, it isn't as if I just made these terms all up. People already use most of them anyway. Now, people who aren't familiar with debate lingo can look at this thread and learn stuff.

If you have any specific objections, or feel that my logic is flawed or something I wrote is too subjective or opinionated, feel free to go ahead and voice your concerns.

Horatio Nelson
June 6th, 2014, 02:54 PM
By all means do a vote. But I'd consider Emerald's words because she is a mod after all. Put the vote in the suggestion section. You may want to put limitations so no comes off as a jerk when using these. You can debate or whatever without being a selective hearing jerk.

How exactly would using these terms in a debate make someone a jerk? And what do you mean "limitations"? This is just a reference, a guide. Besides, it isn't as if I just made these terms all up. People already use most of them anyway. Now, people who aren't familiar with debate lingo can look at this thread and learn stuff.

If you have any specific objections, or feel that my logic is flawed or something I wrote is too subjective or opinionated, feel free to go ahead and voice your concerns.


I honestly don't see the problem. Donald simply made a list of things not to do so you don't look like a complete ninny whilst debating.

Lovelife090994
June 6th, 2014, 06:21 PM
How exactly would using these terms in a debate make someone a jerk? And what do you mean "limitations"? This is just a reference, a guide. Besides, it isn't as if I just made these terms all up. People already use most of them anyway. Now, people who aren't familiar with debate lingo can look at this thread and learn stuff.

If you have any specific objections, or feel that my logic is flawed or something I wrote is too subjective or opinionated, feel free to go ahead and voice your concerns.

Well, that was a bust. Most people are not even taught this stuff. Besides you missed my and Emerald's point.

Vlerchan
June 6th, 2014, 06:25 PM
Most people are not even taught this stuff.
That's why he posted it.

Now you have a chance to learn it.

Lovelife090994
June 6th, 2014, 06:30 PM
That's why he posted it.

Now you have a chance to learn it.

Isn't that a bit corrupt? So learn this and stay or don't and leave? Learn this and debate by our rules or don't debate at all? Because most people don't know this stuff this could place limits to who and what can be said.

Blood
June 6th, 2014, 06:35 PM
Lovely post.

JamesSuperBoy
June 6th, 2014, 06:36 PM
When arguing with someone in an attempt to get at an answer or an explanation, you may come across a person who ..............




That is about as good as it gets - and Yes I found it informative - Good

Vlerchan
June 6th, 2014, 06:38 PM
I really don't want to turn this into an argument because that's not what the thread has been designed for.

Learn this and debate by our rules or don't debate at all?
Nobody has said that.

Gamma Male has simply posted some helpful tips to aid in constructing your arguments. You don't have to adhere to the tips. You don't even have to read the tips. They're just tips. I would however strongly recommend noting the tips down, because I'd consider them very useful tips.

Typhlosion
June 6th, 2014, 06:40 PM
Isn't that a bit corrupt? So learn this and stay or don't and leave? Learn this and debate by our rules or don't debate at all? Because most people don't know this stuff this could place limits to who and what can be said.If you read the suggestions thread, the previous title seemed to suggest that idea. Hence the change.

No, no need to leave. It's only a helpful list. Even the OP says that.

Just remember that this list is intended in no way as some formal rule book, but rather as a resource and guide to help people recognize errors in reasoning and sharpen their debating skills.

Lovelife090994
June 6th, 2014, 06:44 PM
I really don't want to turn this into an argument because that's not what the thread has been designed for.


Nobody has said that.

Gamma Male has simply posted some helpful tips to aid in constructing your arguments. You don't have to adhere to the tips. You don't even have to read the tips. They're just tips. I would however strongly recommend noting the tips down, because I'd consider them very useful tips.



If you read the suggestions thread, the previous title seemed to suggest that idea. Hence the change.

No, no need to leave. It's only a helpful list. Even the OP says that.

Considering that I can't hold a side to save my life I guess this is one subforum I'll be leaving soon. I've never been helpful in arguments anyway because I hate arguments. Nobody likes the guy with little to no opinions, unpopular opinions, or who isn't quite college-level enough which is almost what this list is.

Emerald Dream
June 6th, 2014, 07:32 PM
First of all, thank you for adding the disclaimer to your post. :)

Contrary to what you may think, I do find this to be a good reference. Your descriptions of these things are good, and easy to understand. I'll be the first one to admit that I absolutely suck in debates myself, and just reading through the information posted has helped me. I appreciate it.

The problem I would have with sticking this thread is that while it is claimed to only be a reference and "tips," the fear I have is that a stickied thread might be viewed by some as VT Staff giving their blessing for members to not only use it as a reference, but to actually attack other members.

Here are some examples of what I see happening:

"Geez dude, how many times are you going to use red herrings? {insert link to stickied thread here}"
"The Arguments to Avoid thread is here to correct you. {insert link to stickied thread here}"
"Come back when you actually learn how to debate, kid. {insert link to stickied thread here}"
"You really should check out Gamma Male's thread at the top of this forum."
"Click here to see why your argument (slippery slope) is wrong {insert link to stickied thread here}"

While these might sound kinda lame, the person you say this to may find it to be a bit harassing. Like I have said before - there are two main rules in the debate forum here....stay on topic, and no personal attacks. I just don't want a link to this thrown at people constantly (or at all, for that matter) whenever someone uses a debate tactic that you don't like. Let's be honest here too, if someone thinks it is okay to do this once - they will do it 100 times, and then it gets to be a real problem.

I just don't want to take away from debating points in threads by constantly arguing about "debate tactics." If people are wrong, then I encourage everyone to see through the BS. Yes, I have seen people here use most/all of the things on this list. However, I just don't want to see a link to this thrown at people to tell them they are "wrong." I think most other members will safely assume they are wrong anyways. I fear unnecessary side arguments and people feeling bullied for their debate tactics.

I completely understand why this should be a stickied thread. Absolutely. Everyone who posts in ROTW should read it. However, please understand where I am coming from as a moderator and why I fear this possibly being abused. If there is assurance that the thread will be used as a reference, and not thrown in someone's face to tell them they are wrong....I am all for it. We all know this is ROTW, though. Eventually, someone is going to use it to attack another member under the guise of "reference" or "tips." Just remember that members are free to debate how they want here.

If people can agree to not link it (or reference it) as a tool in debates to "prove someone wrong" then absolutely, make it a sticky.

Camazotz
June 6th, 2014, 07:53 PM
First of all, thank you for adding the disclaimer to your post. :)

Contrary to what you may think, I do find this to be a good reference. Your descriptions of these things are good, and easy to understand. I'll be the first one to admit that I absolutely suck in debates myself, and just reading through the information posted has helped me. I appreciate it.

The problem I would have with sticking this thread is that while it is claimed to only be a reference and "tips," the fear I have is that a stickied thread might be viewed by some as VT Staff giving their blessing for members to not only use it as a reference, but to actually attack other members.

Here are some examples of what I see happening:

"Geez dude, how many times are you going to use red herrings? {insert link to stickied thread here}"
"The Arguments to Avoid thread is here to correct you. {insert link to stickied thread here}"
"Come back when you actually learn how to debate, kid. {insert link to stickied thread here}"
"You really should check out Gamma Male's thread at the top of this forum."
"Click here to see why your argument (slippery slope) is wrong {insert link to stickied thread here}"

While these might sound kinda lame, the person you say this to may find it to be a bit harassing. Like I have said before - there are two main rules in the debate forum here....stay on topic, and no personal attacks. I just don't want a link to this thrown at people constantly (or at all, for that matter) whenever someone uses a debate tactic that you don't like. Let's be honest here too, if someone thinks it is okay to do this once - they will do it 100 times, and then it gets to be a real problem.

I just don't want to take away from debating points in threads by constantly arguing about "debate tactics." If people are wrong, then I encourage everyone to see through the BS. Yes, I have seen people here use most/all of the things on this list. However, I just don't want to see a link to this thrown at people to tell them they are "wrong." I think most other members will safely assume they are wrong anyways. I fear unnecessary side arguments and people feeling bullied for their debate tactics.

I completely understand why this should be a stickied thread. Absolutely. Everyone who posts in ROTW should read it. However, please understand where I am coming from as a moderator and why I fear this possibly being abused. If there is assurance that the thread will be used as a reference, and not thrown in someone's face to tell them they are wrong....I am all for it. We all know this is ROTW, though. Eventually, someone is going to use it to attack another member under the guise of "reference" or "tips." Just remember that members are free to debate how they want here.

If people can agree to not link it (or reference it) as a tool in debates to "prove someone wrong" then absolutely, make it a sticky.

Very wonderfully said.

Learning about logical fallacies and identifying them in your own posts is a great way to become a better debater: your arguments will become clear, you will have more of a reputation as a "reasonable person", and it'll improve your overall outlook on things outside of debates because it will reduce your own personal bias. The key, like Allison said, is to not point out logical fallacies in others' arguments. It'll become annoying and harassing if every single person points out every logical fallacy of someone with a minority opinion (tyranny of the majority).

It may be acceptable in debate clubs and such (I've never been a part of one, so I don't know if pointing logical fallacies is actually a part of real debates), but seeing as how this is a community and not a debate club, doing so can feel targeting toward those who don't wish to engage in "proper debate."

Personally, I think this should simply be added as a second post to the "Tips and Techniques for Debating" sticky (and credit at the end Donald's contribution). Learning about logical fallacies is in itself a technique for debating. However, mods should warn posters that leave comments like "ad hominem, therefore you're wrong." Calling out logical fallacies in others should not be permitted (mostly because everyone does it now and again). But I still support this becoming stickied.

Gamma Male
June 6th, 2014, 07:56 PM
Considering that I can't hold a side to save my life I guess this is one subforum I'll be leaving soon. I've never been helpful in arguments anyway because I hate arguments. Nobody likes the guy with little to no opinions, unpopular opinions, or who isn't quite college-level enough which is almost what this list is.

You're completely overreacting. These are just helpful tips, not demands or rules.

Gamma Male
June 6th, 2014, 08:19 PM
First of all, thank you for adding the disclaimer to your post. :)

Contrary to what you may think, I do find this to be a good reference. Your descriptions of these things are good, and easy to understand. I'll be the first one to admit that I absolutely suck in debates myself, and just reading through the information posted has helped me. I appreciate it.

The problem I would have with sticking this thread is that while it is claimed to only be a reference and "tips," the fear I have is that a stickied thread might be viewed by some as VT Staff giving their blessing for members to not only use it as a reference, but to actually attack other members.

Here are some examples of what I see happening:

"Geez dude, how many times are you going to use red herrings? {insert link to stickied thread here}"
"The Arguments to Avoid thread is here to correct you. {insert link to stickied thread here}"
"Come back when you actually learn how to debate, kid. {insert link to stickied thread here}"
"You really should check out Gamma Male's thread at the top of this forum."
"Click here to see why your argument (slippery slope) is wrong {insert link to stickied thread here}"

While these might sound kinda lame, the person you say this to may find it to be a bit harassing. Like I have said before - there are two main rules in the debate forum here....stay on topic, and no personal attacks. I just don't want a link to this thrown at people constantly (or at all, for that matter) whenever someone uses a debate tactic that you don't like. Let's be honest here too, if someone thinks it is okay to do this once - they will do it 100 times, and then it gets to be a real problem.

I just don't want to take away from debating points in threads by constantly arguing about "debate tactics." If people are wrong, then I encourage everyone to see through the BS. Yes, I have seen people here use most/all of the things on this list. However, I just don't want to see a link to this thrown at people to tell them they are "wrong." I think most other members will safely assume they are wrong anyways. I fear unnecessary side arguments and people feeling bullied for their debate tactics.

I completely understand why this should be a stickied thread. Absolutely. Everyone who posts in ROTW should read it. However, please understand where I am coming from as a moderator and why I fear this possibly being abused. If there is assurance that the thread will be used as a reference, and not thrown in someone's face to tell them they are wrong....I am all for it. We all know this is ROTW, though. Eventually, someone is going to use it to attack another member under the guise of "reference" or "tips." Just remember that members are free to debate how they want here.

If people can agree to not link it (or reference it) as a tool in debates to "prove someone wrong" then absolutely, make it a sticky.

I see what you mean, and I can assure you that was never what I intended. I've added anadditional disclaimer at the top that clarifies what I meant. If you want, you can change the name of the thread to something along the lines of "Common Debate Terms or as Camatoz suggested merge it with that other thread. I never thought this would cause so much controversy.:lol:

Lovelife090994
June 6th, 2014, 08:33 PM
You're completely overreacting. These are just helpful tips, not demands or rules.

I still shouldn't keep coming back though any way. I literally suck at debates. I can never seem to present my thoughts into clear words all of the time no matter what I do. It can be very annoying sometimes. I digress, I guess I am no good with words.