An interesting loophole within Christianity

[Sir Suomi]

I'm going to start out this thread by stating two things. The first is that I do not believe in any sort of god or goddess of any kind, nor will I ever, unless sufficient evidence is shown proving it's existence. Second, I respect everyone's right to believe in what they wish to believe, as long as their belief does not affect others in a negative way.

Now that I'm done with that, onto the question: Is God all-powerful, omniscient, and against evil, like the religion of Christianity states that he is? Here is my argument:

Does God know Evil exists and when it will happen?
If he does not, he is not omniscient.

If God knows Evil exists, can he stop it?
If no, than he is not all-powerful.

If God knows Evil exists and can stop it, why doesn't he stop it?
If he does not, God is not good, which means God himself is evil.

My point here is that if God is neither omniscient, all-powerful, or good, than he is not what Christianity calls their god, which means that there is no christian god.

I just thought of this a while back, so correct me if my philosophy is flawed. Reminder, keep your comments civilized and respectful.

[Horatio Nelson]

I'm going to start out this thread by stating two things. The first is that I do not believe in any sort of god or goddess of any kind, nor will I ever, unless sufficient evidence is shown proving it's existence. Second, I respect everyone's right to believe in what they wish to believe, as long as their belief does not affect others in a negative way.

Now that I'm done with that, onto the question: Is God all-powerful, omniscient, and against evil, like the religion of Christianity states that he is? Here is my argument:

Does God know Evil exists and when it will happen?
If he does not, he is not omniscient.

If God knows Evil exists, can he stop it?
If no, than he is not all-powerful.

If God knows Evil exists and can stop it, why doesn't he stop it?
If he does not, God is not good, which means God himself is evil.

My point here is that if God is neither omniscient, all-powerful, or good, than he is not what Christianity calls their god, which means that there is no christian god.

I just thought of this a while back, so correct me if my philosophy is flawed. Reminder, keep your comments civilized and respectful.

He knows evil exists, He can stop it, and He does give the wicked their due.

[Camazotz]

Epicurus said this hundreds of years before Jesus' birth, and therefore before the Christian God existed. He wasn't an atheist though, just a form of poly-deist.

[Sir Suomi]

He knows evil exists, He can stop it, and He does give the wicked their due.

But why doesn't he stop it now, instead of watching it unfold? Why would he allow it to happen, unless he is content with evil to exist?

[StoppingTime]

I'm no Christian scholar (and not even Christian for that matter)...but your philosophy does seem a bit flawed.
What I don't understand about all these religious debates is how so many people (usually devout believers, and usually of some Christian denomination) believe they can speak for, and discuss the decisions made by the god they believe in. If this god is truly omnipotent/present/good, how is any human, a mortal being who would be nothing compared to the power and knowledge of god, capable of understanding god's decisions, plans, etc? We can make guesses that if god truly is everywhere and all-knowing, and he stands by evil and does nothing to stop it that he therefore isn't "good," but then we'd have to define good not on what we believe it means, but on what this god knows the concept of good means.
So the TL;DR that I'm trying to get at (specifically in response to your question, but it could be applied to any all powerful/knowing deity) is: If this god is truly all powerful and whatnot, how is it that regular people are able to interpret his/its actions and make them fit into our definitions of good and evil?

[Horatio Nelson]

I'm no Christian scholar (and not even Christian for that matter)...but your philosophy does seem a bit flawed.
What I don't understand about all these religious debates is how so many people (usually devout believers, and usually of some Christian denomination) believe they can speak for, and discuss the decisions made by the god they believe in. If this god is truly omnipotent/present/good, how is any human, a mortal being who would be nothing compared to the power and knowledge of god, capable of understanding god's decisions, plans, etc? We can make guesses that if god truly is everywhere and all-knowing, and he stands by evil and does nothing to stop it that he therefore isn't "good," but then we'd have to define good not on what we believe it means, but on what this god knows the concept of good means.
So the TL;DR that I'm trying to get at (specifically in response to your question, but it could be applied to any all powerful/knowing deity) is: If this god is truly all powerful and whatnot, how is it that regular people are able to interpret his/its actions and make them fit into our definitions of good and evil?

I agree 100%.

I don't *know* God's plan. I just know what I believe in.

[Harry Smith]

He knows evil exists, He can stop it, and He does give the wicked their due.

Sorry but how Gullible are you? I love how Christians some how claim that god will punish the wicked evil men-tell me why hasn't God sent a lighting bolt to Rick Santorum yet?

But sure what does God know about evil-according to christian beliefs he committed Genocide because he was annoyed with himself-sounds like a great idea to base your entire life on

[Lovelife090994]

You're right, you are not Christian because you would see reason. The answers to your questions are all in the Bible. God left the world to man which is why evil exists, man is supposed to help our fellow man but it is not always possible which is why we have so many problems. God comes to anyone who will ask. Anyone evil or wicked will pay the price. It is just how things are. God intervens everyday but we don't give him credit. As long as the Earth is in man's hands then there will always be problems. It's hard to be a father when so many fight you; and that's where God is. He loves us but not everyone loves him, plus he didn't go back on his world. God is in control but he did leave the Earth to man.

[Harry Smith]

. The answers to your questions are all in the Bible. God comes to anyone who will ask. Anyone evil or wicked will pay the price.

But Christians only follow the parts of the bible that suit modern culture. I asked God to come just now-nawt happened. What price are you talking about? I don't understand why christians seem to act like children by using buzzwords like 'evil' because it's such a vague term-you're gullible if you think that the evil people in the world will be punished

[Living For Love]

Does God know Evil exists and when it will happen? Yes, he does.

If God knows Evil exists, can he stop it? Yes, he can.

If God knows Evil exists and can stop it, why doesn't he stop it? Because God created humans, not machines. Evil exists because of mankind, not because of God, and though he has all the power (he wouldn't be God if he hadn't), he doesn't stop it because he gives men the choice to choose between both sides.

[Stronk Serb]

You're right, you are not Christian because you would see reason. The answers to your questions are all in the Bible. God left the world to man which is why evil exists, man is supposed to help our fellow man but it is not always possible which is why we have so many problems. God comes to anyone who will ask. Anyone evil or wicked will pay the price. It is just how things are. God intervens everyday but we don't give him credit. As long as the Earth is in man's hands then there will always be problems. It's hard to be a father when so many fight you; and that's where God is. He loves us but not everyone loves him, plus he didn't go back on his world. God is in control but he did leave the Earth to man.

If he is in control, that means our lives are pointless. I will burn in hell without a chance to repent, or you will go to heaven without a chance to go astray. If he is kind and all-mighty, why do people go to Hell. Why does Hell even exist if he dislikes it so much?

[Harry Smith]

Does God know Evil exists and when it will happen? Yes, he does.

If God knows Evil exists, can he stop it? Yes, he can.

If God knows Evil exists and can stop it, why doesn't he stop it? Because God created humans, not machines. Evil exists because of mankind, not because of God, and though he has all the power (he wouldn't be God if he hadn't), he doesn't stop it because he gives men the choice to choose between both sides.

Ok I'm going to go with two lines of reasoning here

1) You claim God doesn't stop evil yet the Bible clearly demonstrates (Sodom and Golom etc) how God commits mass murder on the basis of evil in the world. So either the bible is wrong or the argument you present is wrong.

2)It seems pretty childish,arrogant and stupid of God to give us free will, and then complain when we don't follow his plan. It's like turning off the engine in the plane and complaining when you crash. What did he expect to happen when he gives us free will?

I'll be blunt-even if God exists he doesn't give a shit about the so called 'evils' that we've committed

[alphazenofi]

I'm going to start out this thread by stating two things. The first is that I do not believe in any sort of god or goddess of any kind, nor will I ever, unless sufficient evidence is shown proving it's existence. Second, I respect everyone's right to believe in what they wish to believe, as long as their belief does not affect others in a negative way.

Now that I'm done with that, onto the question: Is God all-powerful, omniscient, and against evil, like the religion of Christianity states that he is? Here is my argument:

Does God know Evil exists and when it will happen?
If he does not, he is not omniscient.

If God knows Evil exists, can he stop it?
If no, than he is not all-powerful.

If God knows Evil exists and can stop it, why doesn't he stop it?
If he does not, God is not good, which means God himself is evil.

My point here is that if God is neither omniscient, all-powerful, or good, than he is not what Christianity calls their god, which means that there is no christian god.

I just thought of this a while back, so correct me if my philosophy is flawed. Reminder, keep your comments civilized and respectful.


Does God know Evil exists and when it will happen?
He does.

If God knows Evil exists, can he stop it?
God can stop it through the Holy Spirit that should act on us, but we often don't feel It. I once read that universe is divided in two parts, God owns the 51%, the Evil the 49%.

If God knows Evil exists and can stop it, why doesn't he stop it?
He always tries to stop it, and we should too.

That's all I can tell you.

[Living For Love]

1) You claim God doesn't stop evil yet the Bible clearly demonstrates (Sodom and Golom etc) how God commits mass murder on the basis of evil in the world. So either the bible is wrong or the argument you present is wrong.
You can't compare what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah to nowadays situation.

2)It seems pretty childish,arrogant and stupid of God to give us free will, and then complain when we don't follow his plan. It's like turning off the engine in the plane and complaining when you crash. What did he expect to happen when he gives us free will?
When did God complain we don't follow his plan? You follow what you want, you are give two alternatives, choose one and be happy with it.

I'll be blunt-even if God exists he doesn't give a shit about the so called 'evils' that we've committed
Why do you say so?

[Miserabilia]

I feel like most replies here are either going to be bible cherry picking or the "god works in mysterious ways" argument;
I have no problem with that but I don't think there really is a discussion to it.
This is a loophole,
because this is concidering that god hates all evil and will do anything to remove it.
However, the bible seems to show that evil is required; the there needs to be evil for there to be good idea.
Otherwise god would remove satan, and not let humans be able to choose evil.
On the other hand,
this just leaves more questions where the only answer is the god works in myserious ways argument.
Either way,
it is a loophole,
but it depends on the religious persons interpertation and beleifs on how to fix it.

[Horatio Nelson]

Ok I'm going to go with two lines of reasoning here

1) You claim God doesn't stop evil yet the Bible clearly demonstrates (Sodom and Golom etc) how God commits mass murder on the basis of evil in the world. So either the bible is wrong or the argument you present is wrong.

2)It seems pretty childish,arrogant and stupid of God to give us free will, and then complain when we don't follow his plan. It's like turning off the engine in the plane and complaining when you crash. What did he expect to happen when he gives us free will?

I'll be blunt-even if God exists he doesn't give a shit about the so called 'evils' that we've committed

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because there was much wickedness there. Besides, God couldn't even find 10 righteous people in the city. If he had he would have spared it.

[Stronk Serb]

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because there was much wickedness there. Besides, God couldn't even find 10 righteous people in the city. If he had he would have spared it.


Why would he send angels to look for righteous people if he is all-knowing?

[Horatio Nelson]

Why would he send angels to look for righteous people if he is all-knowing?

He didn't, He sent the two angels to warn Lot and his family that He was going to destroy it.

[Lovelife090994]

If he is in control, that means our lives are pointless. I will burn in hell without a chance to repent, or you will go to heaven without a chance to go astray. If he is kind and all-mighty, why do people go to Hell. Why does Hell even exist if he dislikes it so much?

Ok I'm going to go with two lines of reasoning here

1) You claim God doesn't stop evil yet the Bible clearly demonstrates (Sodom and Golom etc) how God commits mass murder on the basis of evil in the world. So either the bible is wrong or the argument you present is wrong.

2)It seems pretty childish,arrogant and stupid of God to give us free will, and then complain when we don't follow his plan. It's like turning off the engine in the plane and complaining when you crash. What did he expect to happen when he gives us free will?

I'll be blunt-even if God exists he doesn't give a shit about the so called 'evils' that we've committed

Let them find happiness in the only place they can, in their own minds. (Jeremiah 17:9-10) I'll let you keep your misguidance.
One, God doesn't put you in Hell, your actions do because you choose to be out of God's hands and he will respect that choice. Two, Hell exists because when Lucifer fell from Grace it was corrupted. Lucifer always hated the fact that man could be with God whereas he such a high angel couldn't. The world has a way of corrupting the human heart and humans are incredibly susceptible to corruption. We are no longer pure of heart. As Christians we strive to have a pure heart and to keep our eyes on God's promise to be with our King, Father, and Savior. Nothing else would be as soothing to the heart and soul of even the most baby of Christian. It's what we live for. To help others. God left the Earth to man and as such it is our responsibility to help the sick and poor. Jews have this task as well. But, our kindness has a price since many do not accept it and if they are not with the Lord then they could be damned but not by God.

God made Earth for the living, he made Heaven for the saved, if you are neither then the Devil will snatch you up and you are absorbed by the Earth itself in Hell. Hell's punishment is to keep you detached from God. Hell by word was left to The Devil and God cannot go down in there to get you. It was your choice not to be with God and he will not force you to be there. At first all mankind could go to Heaven but with the ways of man's evil, evil itself, the Devil, corruption, law, now even God is punished because he has to watch his own children suffer in agony. Hell was never meant for humans, but the Devil changed that with his hatred of man. The Devil hates us, and wants to mislead us into his evil. It is not an easy road but it has choices.

[saea97]

Two of the more interesting 'solutions' to the problem of evil are the Augustinian theodicy and the Irenean theodicy.
-Augustine proposes that God can only do good, and that giving humans free will was an act of good (whereas not giving humans free will is an act of 'less-than-good') thus in his love he allowed us free will, and humans chose to reject him, hence bringing evil (as a "lack of God") into the world.
-Ireneus proposes - rather more disturbingly - that God decreed evil and suffering to be necessary in order for mankind to "validate" his soul in some way and grow closer to be with God. (It's pretty karmic, but then this was Christianity even before Nicaea, so it's fairly unrecognisable to modern doctrine.)

Either way, the free will defence has been argued as a solution to the problem of evil for millennia. It's been advanced in several ways (see Plantinga) and tends to face the problems of being convincing to believers and unconvincing to atheists, due to presuppositions. (believers may say God deliberately obscures his "plan" so that we work it out for ourselves [the so-called 'epistemic distance'], which an atheist [e.g. me] would find utterly worthless as an excuse.)

[Harry Smith]

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because there was much wickedness there. Besides, God couldn't even find 10 righteous people in the city. If he had he would have spared it.

And by wickedness you mean homosexuality? I'd love to see what God would do to Brighton. You don't really believe the story about Sodom and Gomorrah do you? I mean it just shows you to be naive and a genocidal supporter if you do. I can't find 10 righteous people in my school-should I go and kill everyone?


Why would he send angels to look for righteous people if he is all-knowing?

You've found a flaw in Religion-that's a first aha

You can't compare what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah to nowadays situation.


When did God complain we don't follow his plan? You follow what you want, you are give two alternatives, choose one and be happy with it.


Why do you say so?

yes you can when the scripture from the Bible is used around the world to promote an anti-women, anti-gay and anti-equal agenda. I think God complained when he flooded the entire world-you know with Noah's ark. I mean what idiot gives you free will and then kills you when you don't follow his plan.

I say so because even if God is real think of the amount of power he would possess, why would he care what a clump of cells does in it's extremely short lifestyle? Do we complain if two male ants start humping each other. If God did have as much power as that why would he care what 1 out of the trillions of people who lived on this planet do at night.

People like to think they're important, that's why people believe in God. They want to pretend that there so significant when in the grand scheme of things we're really not that important

Let them find happiness in the only place they can, in their own minds. (Jeremiah 17:9-10) I'll let you keep your misguidance.
One, God doesn't put you in Hell, your actions do because you choose to be out of God's hands and he will respect that choice. Two, Hell exists because when Lucifer fell from Grace it was corrupted. Lucifer always hated the fact that man could be with God whereas he such a high angel couldn't. The world has a way of corrupting the human heart and humans are incredibly susceptible to corruption. We are no longer pure of heart. As Christians we strive to have a pure heart and to keep our eyes on God's promise to be with our King, Father, and Savior. Nothing else would be as soothing to the heart and soul of even the most baby of Christian. It's what we live for. To help others. God left the Earth to man and as such it is our responsibility to help the sick and poor. Jews have this task as well. But, our kindness has a price since many do not accept it and if they are not with the Lord then they could be damned but not by God.

God made Earth for the living, he made Heaven for the saved, if you are neither then the Devil will snatch you up and you are absorbed by the Earth itself in Hell. Hell's punishment is to keep you detached from God. Hell by word was left to The Devil and God cannot go down in there to get you. It was your choice not to be with God and he will not force you to be there. At first all mankind could go to Heaven but with the ways of man's evil, evil itself, the Devil, corruption, law, now even God is punished because he has to watch his own children suffer in agony. Hell was never meant for humans, but the Devil changed that with his hatred of man. The Devil hates us, and wants to mislead us into his evil. It is not an easy road but it has choices.

To quote Wlater Mondale 'Where's the beef?' Your argument is just rhetoric which A) doesn't address the question B) Doesn't make sense.

The devil hates us? I remember Bill Maher said that if we were a Dog the authorities would take us away from God since he's tried to massarce us a couple of million times

[Hudor]

People like to think they're important, that's why people believe in God. They want to pretend that there so significant when in the grand scheme of things we're really not that important


We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special- Stephen hawkings.

Why are you so worked up about all this? Let people believe what they want to. Proving and disproving the Bible and its preachings would hardly make a difference in the grander scheme and aims of all our lives. I find some of your arguments valid but so were those of a few others. Believers are gonna defend God to the atheists who will reply with dispassionate practicality. There's no real answer to the questions posted it's all your preference and mindset.

[Miserabilia]

We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special- Stephen hawkings.

Why are you so worked up about all this? Let people believe what they want to. Proving and disproving the Bible and its preachings would hardly make a difference in the grander scheme and aims of all our lives. I find some of your arguments valid but so were those of a few others. Believers are gonna defend God to the atheists who will reply with dispassionate practicality. There's no real answer to the questions posted it's all your preference and mindset.

Let people believe what they want to.

He's not denying anyone their beleifs.
As a matter of fact he is just stating his own.

Proving and disproving the Bible and its preachings

This had nothing to do with disproving or disproving.

There's no real answer to the questions posted it's all your preference and mindset.

With this I aggree.
It's all about interpetation,
however this question is interesting to the minor group of people who take the bible as the direct and literal word of god,
because then a loophole would indeed occur.
For others, it's just interpetation.

[gothy]

Does God know Evil exists and when it will happen? Yes, he does.

If God knows Evil exists, can he stop it? Yes, he can.

If God knows Evil exists and can stop it, why doesn't he stop it? Because God created humans, not machines. Evil exists because of mankind, not because of God, and though he has all the power (he wouldn't be God if he hadn't), he doesn't stop it because he gives men the choice to choose between both sides.

God created man and he cteated the devil. If he didnt want there to be evil, then why did he create mankind? Why did he create "the devil" if he knew he would oppose him? So thus god created evil.

[Harry Smith]

Why are you so worked up about all this? .

Because christians have been campaigning against my rights for the last 60 years. That's why

[Living For Love]

yes you can when the scripture from the Bible is used around the world to promote an anti-women, anti-gay and anti-equal agenda. I think God complained when he flooded the entire world-you know with Noah's ark. I mean what idiot gives you free will and then kills you when you don't follow his plan.

I say so because even if God is real think of the amount of power he would possess, why would he care what a clump of cells does in it's extremely short lifestyle? Do we complain if two male ants start humping each other. If God did have as much power as that why would he care what 1 out of the trillions of people who lived on this planet do at night.

People like to think they're important, that's why people believe in God. They want to pretend that there so significant when in the grand scheme of things we're really not that important

If people use the Bible to promote anti-women, anti-gay and anti-equal principles, then they're using it the wrong way. Maybe it was obvious for God that mankind would prefer an eternal life in Heaven rather than eternal suffering and punishment in Hell, I mean, wouldn't you choose the former as well?

And we're not just a "clump of cells", we're not like other animals. We're God's perfect creation, he really does care about you and everyone else, that's why he sent his son to die for your sins blah blah blah and I'm going to stop here because I do want to go off-topic. When comparing to other things God created, it's legit to assume that you're not that important, but again, to God's eyes, you really are.

[deregisterme]

If there wasn't evil, free will and mankind would be somewhat different. Do I think it was something created by God? No I don't. If I did believe it, and was in Gods position, seeing all the evil and wrong in the world, I'd probably click my fingers and start again!

[Miserabilia]

If there wasn't evil, free will and mankind would be somewhat different. Do I think it was something created by God? No I don't. If I did believe it, and was in Gods position, seeing all the evil and wrong in the world, I'd probably click my fingers and start again!

So evil was not created by god???
Where did it come from?
Because that means god is not actualy the creator of everything.
Or do you mean that evil came from god's creations like man?
Because that's indirectly still the creation of god.

[deregisterme]

So evil was not created by god???
Where did it come from?
Because that means god is not actualy the creator of everything.
Or do you mean that evil came from god's creations like man?
Because that's indirectly still the creation of god.

Is God the creator of everything? Did God create evil? If so, why? Is it as simple as the fact that you can't truly have free will without it? I don't get why a being so good and powerful would create evil?

[Miserabilia]

Is God the creator of everything? Did God create evil? If so, why? Is it as simple as the fact that you can't truly have free will without it? I don't get why a being so good and powerful would create evil?

Is God the creator of everything?

Well I've yet to hear of a christian theory that says he's not.

Did God create evil?

I don't know I don't beleive in god :lol:

Is it as simple as the fact that you can't truly have free will without it?

Mmm.. Well evil and good is really subjective, so that's questionable.

I don't get why a being so good and powerful would create evil?

I don't either.
Where would evil come from otherwise though?

[deregisterme]

Well I've yet to hear of a christian theory that says he's not.



I don't know I don't beleive in god :lol:



Mmm.. Well evil and good is really subjective, so that's questionable.



I don't either.
Where would evil come from otherwise though?

I agree. I do think good and evil are just human terms, and can mean different things to different people. I'm in no way religious and we have can be made taking morals from the bible in a non religious way. Thou shalt not steal is one of the commandments, and probably a rule in place almost anywhere, in all walks of life, not just Christianity. I'm probably thinking too much like a computer here, but if God had created man, surely, the 10 commandments, could have been "ingrained" on mankind with free will then being applied on top of that? To me, either God doesn't exits, or with all these issues of mankind, he's made major design flaws!

[Vlerchan]

The generic response to the Appeal To Evil is that, Gods upholding of Free Will, which comes at the cost of evil manifesting itself within his creation, results in the greater good (as defined by God) being upheld and protected, and thus he retains his omnibenevolant statues.

Mmm.. Well evil and good is really subjective, so that's questionable.
Whilst I'd agree here, as far as Christianity is concerned there's an objective 'good' and 'evil'.

[Miserabilia]

I agree. I do think good and evil are just human terms, and can mean different things to different people. I'm in no way religious and we have can be made taking morals from the bible in a non religious way. Thou shalt not steal is one of the commandments, and probably a rule in place almost anywhere, in all walks of life, not just Christianity. I'm probably thinking too much like a computer here, but if God had created man, surely, the 10 commandments, could have been "ingrained" on mankind with free will then being applied on top of that? To me, either God doesn't exits, or with all these issues of mankind, he's made major design flaws!
True.




Whilst I'd agree here, as far as Christianity is concerned there's an objective 'good' and 'evil'.

Yes, you are right.

[Lovelife090994]

Because christians have been campaigning against my rights for the last 60 years. That's why

Hello, Christian here. I have been living like all Christians for the past thousand and so years, as citizens living and working.

[Harry Smith]

If people use the Bible to promote anti-women, anti-gay and anti-equal principles, then they're using it the wrong way. Maybe it was obvious for God that mankind would prefer an eternal life in Heaven rather than eternal suffering and punishment in Hell, I mean, wouldn't you choose the former as well?

And we're not just a "clump of cells", we're not like other animals. We're God's perfect creation, he really does care about you and everyone else, that's why he sent his son to die for your sins blah blah blah and I'm going to stop here because I do want to go off-topic. When comparing to other things God created, it's legit to assume that you're not that important, but again, to God's eyes, you really are.

That's really sweet-we're quite clearly not that perfect. If we were his perfect creation then why do we have such weak useless necks? You've seen the human neck right? It snaps like a twig. Surely if God made us perfect that we wouldn't suffer from such basic failures. If we were perfect then why would we go through evolution? I'm sure you'll somehow claim that it's all God's plan but surely something this powerful should be a bit smarter.

I'l also ask my two previous points A) Do you agree with genocide? B) Why would God give us free will and then complain we when rebel?


Hello, Christian here. I have been living like all Christians for the past thousand and so years, as citizens living and working.

Great you work-in the mean time you and your fellow christians have continued to promote a hateful agenda. Not just in Western countries but across the whole world. Whether it's stealing Nazi Gold, allowing the holocaust to occur, burning gays, voting against gay marriage, voting against adoption, abusing young school children or investing money into firearms and loan sharks. That's when wrong with Chrisitinaity in the world, but I'm sure you're going to tell me that's all wrong because it disagree's with me. Accept it-the church have been nothing but bad news for Britain, and the rest of the world. I'll ask the same question to you A) do you agree with genocide?

[Lovelife090994]

That's really sweet-we're quite clearly not that perfect. If we were his perfect creation then why do we have such weak useless necks? You've seen the human neck right? It snaps like a twig. Surely if God made us perfect that we wouldn't suffer from such basic failures




Great you work-in the mean time you and your fellow christians have continued to promote a hateful agenda. Not just in Western countries but across the whole world. Whether it's stealing Nazi Gold, allowing the holocaust to occur, burning gays, voting against gay marriage, voting against adoption, abusing young school children or investing money into firearms and loan sharks. That's when wrong with Chrisitinaity in the world, but I'm sure you're going to tell me that's all wrong because it disagree's with me. Accept it-the church have been nothing but bad news for Britain, and the rest of the world

You have no power over me. I'll accept no deridement from you. You do realize the Nazis were evil right? They spared no one. Christians were killled too. Every Christian is Jewish in spirit through Christ. The Jews are our brethren. Christians were prisoners in their own land when the Holocaust happened. My mother is Christian, she never abused me and is not hateful. You are so cynical. I believe in what I believe and it does not promote hatred. You on the other hand are promoting hatred by blanketing all Christians with hate which Christians are forbidden to do! Matthew 5:44 says how we speak good even to our enemies, to turn the other cheek and not lead our hearts into hatred. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they hate you. You at yourself first, dear. You are no better than the bad people hiding behind religion. What will you when you get what you want? Attack all of Christendom? You can't keep painting all Christians with the same brush. Have you any idea how many LGBT are law-abiding and loving Christians? Not everyone LGBT is an activist and against the whole Church be it Catholic or Protestant. You make me cry because I feel all this anger and turmoil in you. You don't even know me or others yet you think so low of others. Where is your heart? Did it dry and blacken? Why are you so mad at a faith you don't hold? Where are you in all of this?

[Harry Smith]

You do realize the Nazis were evil right? They spared no one. Christians were killled too. Every Christian is Jewish in spirit through Christ. The Jews are our brethren. Christians were prisoners in their own land when the Holocaust happened. My mother is Christian, she never abused me and is not hateful. You are so cynical. I believe in what I believe and it does not promote hatred. You on the other hand are promoting hatred by blanketing all Christians with hate which Christians are forbidden to do! Matthew 5:44 says how we speak good even to our enemies, to turn the other cheek and not lead our hearts into hatred. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they hate you. You at yourself first, dear. You are no better than the bad people hiding behind religion. What will you when you get what you want? Attack all of Christendom? You can't keep painting all Christians with the same brush. Have you any idea how many LGBT are law-abiding and loving Christians? Not everyone LGBT is an activist and against the whole Church be it Catholic or Protestant. You make me cry because I feel all this anger and turmoil in you. You don't even know me or others yet you think so low of others. Where is your heart? Did it dry and blacken? Why are you so mad at a faith you don't hold? Where are you in all of this?

I never knew the Nazis were evil. But do you know that the Catholic church not only helped Nazis flee the war, but they signed a pact with them in the 30's where the Catholic's said they wouldn't stop the Nazis in any way. Apart from a couple of individuals the church's leadership during the Nazis was at best terrible.

Open the Bible, and you'll see hatred. Or did God kill everyone on earth out of love?

I'm going to ignore all the spunk at the end of argument because it doesn't really matter what colour my heart is, the fact is that as I said above in the UK the church have had a terrible track record. This is the leadership and the membership of the church-do you understand that? It's not just the leaders, it's the members who are also promoting hate filled bigotry. But sure you'll ignore it and continue telling me that our murderous God loves all of his children

[Lovelife090994]

I never knew the Nazis were evil. But do you know that the Catholic church not only helped Nazis flee the war, but they signed a pact with them in the 30's where the Catholic's said they wouldn't stop the Nazis in any way. Apart from a couple of individuals the church's leadership during the Nazis was at best terrible.

Open the Bible, and you'll see hatred. Or did God kill everyone on earth out of love?

I'm going to ignore all the spunk at the end of argument because it doesn't really matter what colour my heart is, the fact is that as I said above in the UK the church have had a terrible track record. This is the leadership and the membership of the church-do you understand that? It's not just the leaders, it's the members who are also promoting hate filled bigotry. But sure you'll ignore it and continue telling me that our murderous God loves all of his children

Do not dare yell at me! I will only talk if you cooperate. God punishes the wicked, if you are referring to the flood The Great Flood killed off the evil. Man was not redeemed yet until Christ died for us. He died so that we could find life. Man then was full of darkness and hatred. The Bible speaks of love, especially in The Book of Psalms. Read that, why don't ya? I am not Catholic but I do know that no Catholic today was there for the past sins. Even the Catholic Church has its problems because they have a history of human corruption. God would not support a war against his own people. And you really are delusioned in your own hateful heart. If you hate hatred then why do you have it. I won't talk to you any more. You have problems and apparently they need to be addressed.

[Harry Smith]

Do not dare yell at me! I will only talk if you cooperate. God punishes the wicked, if you are referring to the flood The Great Flood killed off the evil. Man was not redeemed yet until Christ died for us. He died so that we could find life. Man then was full of darkness and hatred. The Bible speaks of love, especially in The Book of Psalms. Read that, why don't ya? I am not Catholic but I do know that no Catholic today was there for the past sins. Even the Catholic Church has its problems because they have a history of human corruption. God would not support a war against his own people. And you really are delusioned in your own hateful heart. If you hate hatred then why do you have it. I won't talk to you any more. You have problems and apparently they need to be addressed.

I'm not yelling at you, it's impossible to yell on a board. I simply made a section of the text bigger to ensure you read it. I love that your debating style is just us thinking that your some how better than everyone else, and anyone who questions your believes must be some sort of sub human with issues. You've done this at least 20 times, and it makes your debate look weak if you refuse to debate on account of being better than someone. You can try and dismiss me as a hateful twat-that still makes your argument wrong

[Lovelife090994]

I'm not yelling at you, it's impossible to yell on a board. I simply made a section of the text bigger to ensure you read it

Do you hear yourself. Larger text in the middle of normal text all Caps or not is yelling. If you want to emphasize, you bold. Yes, you can yell literally. Now can't you actually read and reply to what I write with a little heart? People like you make me lose faith in humanity. Can you at leaast tell me your issues and have me help you?

[Harry Smith]

Do you hear yourself. Larger text in the middle of normal text all Caps or not is yelling. If you want to emphasize, you bold. Yes, you can yell literally. Now can't you actually read and reply to what I write with a little heart? People like you make me lose faith in humanity. Can you at leaast tell me your issues and have me help you?

It's not yelling-shout in a loud, sharp way.

Since I didn't speak it it's physically impossible to yell. Now that I've proved I'm right, can we get back to the discussion.

Why did God commit genocide if he loves us?

[Lovelife090994]

It's not yelling-

Since I didn't speak it it's physically impossible to yell. Now that I've proved I'm right, can we get back to the discussion.

Why did God commit genocide if he loves us?

You can't be right all of the time. So, now I have a piece of your diagnosis. You think you are always right. Yelling is possible in words. God loves man, he does not love evil. When the existence of good is threatened then he intervenes.

[Harry Smith]

You can't be right all of the time. So, now I have a piece of your diagnosis. You think you are always right. Yelling is possible in words. God loves man, he does not love evil. When the existence of good is threatened then he intervenes.

No it's not-the definition from the dictionary proves you wrong. I know for a fact I wasn't yelling, I wrote the text, I know the emotions I had when I wrote it, I wasn't yelling and that's a fact.

Do you agree with genocide?

[Lovelife090994]

No it's not-the definition from the dictionary proves you wrong. I know for a fact I wasn't yelling, I wrote the text, I know the emotions I had when I wrote it, I wasn't yelling and that's a fact.

Do you agree with genocide?

Do you agree with genocide. I don't. Genocide is the systematic or unsystematic killing of a group for no other reason than hate. God didn't hate them, he passed Judgement. Something we all face. I'm starting to think you are a sociopath. You scare me deeply.

[Harry Smith]

Do you agree with genocide. I don't. Genocide is the systematic or unsystematic killing of a group for no other reason than hate. God didn't hate them, he passed Judgement. Something we all face. I'm starting to think you are a sociopath. You scare me deeply.

I find it very rude that you consider me asking a question to be a trait intertwined with sociopathy. http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

I don't really follow any of that criteria, but I'll be more than happy to go through it with you in a PM if you want, to paraphrase Nixon 'I'm not a sociopath' even if I was-that doesn't make my argument wrong.

On the subject of genocide you're also wrong-it's not just caused by hate. To claim that you'd have to ignore the Rwanda genocide which I'd argue was caused by fear, and a crumbling political system where a reactionary force was able to use fear to promote it, so the definition you provided below is wrong at best because it's more complicated than hate, in fact I'd argue that it nearly always is

unsystematic killing of a group for no other reason than hate

[Lovelife090994]

I find it very rude that you consider me asking a question to be a trait intertwined with sociopathy. http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

I don't really follow any of that criteria, but I'll be more than happy to go through it with you in a PM if you want, to paraphrase Nixon 'I'm not a sociopath' even if I was-that doesn't make my argument wrong.

On the subject of genocide you're also wrong-it's not just caused by hate. To claim that you'd have to ignore the Rwanda genocide which I'd argue was caused by fear, and a crumbling political system where a reactionary force was able to use fear to promote it, so the definition you provided below is wrong at best because it's more complicated than hate, in fact I'd argue that it nearly always is

Genocide is unspeakably evil. Don't you get that? God and genocide don't even go in the same sentence.

[Harry Smith]

Genocide is unspeakably evil. Don't you get that? God and genocide don't even go in the same sentence.

But God has committed genocide

[Lovelife090994]

But God has committed genocide

No, he didn't let evil stay and kill his people. Big difference.

[saea97]

No, he didn't let evil stay and kill his people. Big difference.

So with all the evil and suffering in the world today, when should we expect Flood 2.0? Seems like God would again be getting concerned that evil is "staying and killing his people".

Your unwillingness to engage with Harry and others (including myself) on this and other threads is genuinely quite dizzying.

[Miserabilia]

No, he didn't let evil stay and kill his people. Big difference.

And he did so by commiting genocide.
You can sugarcoat and explain why he did it,
but in the end it's still genocide.

[Lovelife090994]

So with all the evil and suffering in the world today, when should we expect Flood 2.0? Seems like God would again be getting concerned that evil is "staying and killing his people".

Your unwillingness to engage with Harry and others (including myself) on this and other threads is genuinely quite dizzying.

And he did so by commiting genocide.
You can sugarcoat and explain why he did it,
but in the end it's still genocide.


If you won't take my word for it then go to the Bible. Genesis. Another example, The Exodus. These books may be in the Torah but they are incredibly important. God will come back but he said he wouldn't send another flood. He made a covenant to not flood the Earth again. However, the world will go by fire. God always protects his people. His people are those in need and those willing to be with him. All others are still his children but are not covered by his Grace.

[Miserabilia]

If you won't take my word for it then go to the Bible.

And the bible describes genocide.

And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. Deuteronomy 2:34

And we utterly destroyed them, ... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. Deuteronomy 3:6

And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2

And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them. Deuteronomy 7:16

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17

And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

So smote all the country ... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

[Lovelife090994]

And the bible describes genocide.

And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. Deuteronomy 2:34

And we utterly destroyed them, ... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. Deuteronomy 3:6

And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2

And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them. Deuteronomy 7:16

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17

And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

So smote all the country ... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

Notcie, most if not all of those recount the story of the Jews claiming Israel. The Jews had to fight for their land. Remember the time. That was a list of events from over one thousand years ago. The world was very barbaric then. We are not allowed to do that stuff now. Besides, given the human intervention and how Deuteronomy is, it's hard to say if it is accurate. I don't stand for the killing but if anything this shows man's flaws. We Christians seek to better ourselves and not live in war.

[variantwarrior]

We Christians seek to better ourselves and not live in war.

Every religion claims to hate war, and every religion starts conflicts. If I may, I'll list some.

1)The Crusades. Taking place in medieval times, and ordered by the Pope, the Crusades were a series of bloody conflicts that lasted for decades. Entire cities were wiped out, one after the other.

2)The Salem Witch Trials. Completely innocent women punished (some executed) for causing sickness in Salem, Massachusetts.

3)The wars in the middle east. These were political as well, but much of the original conflict (before America decided to get involved) was religious.

I've called myself Christian, but in the past months I've been noticing the amount of contradictions in the bible.

[Miserabilia]

Notcie, most if not all of those recount the story of the Jews claiming Israel. The Jews had to fight for their land. Remember the time. That was a list of events from over one thousand years ago. The world was very barbaric then. We are not allowed to do that stuff now. Besides, given the human intervention and how Deuteronomy is, it's hard to say if it is accurate. I don't stand for the killing but if anything this shows man's flaws. We Christians seek to better ourselves and not live in war.

Notcie, most if not all of those recount the story of the Jews claiming Israel. The Jews had to fight for their land. Remember the time. That was a list of events from over one thousand years ago. The world was very barbaric then.

Time is irrelevant, the bible clearly states it was a mission directly from god.

[Lovelife090994]

Every religion claims to hate war, and every religion starts conflicts. If I may, I'll list some.

1)The Crusades. Taking place in medieval times, and ordered by the Pope, the Crusades were a series of bloody conflicts that lasted for decades. Entire cities were wiped out, one after the other.

2)The Salem Witch Trials. Completely innocent women punished (some executed) for causing sickness in Salem, Massachusetts.

3)The wars in the middle east. These were political as well, but much of the original conflict (before America decided to get involved) was religious.

I've called myself Christian, but in the past months I've been noticing the amount of contradictions in the bible.

And yet no Christian today is responsible for that. Christians today are dying because we believe what we do. Of course the Bible has contradictions, it has many authors, bridges many gaps in history, and is full of mistranslations.

Time is irrelevant, the bible clearly states it was a mission directly from god.

To the Jews. Not to me. The point of a Christian is to believe in Jesus as our personal lord and savior. War and other issues don't fit into that. We are supposed to live right but we aren't supposed to take credit for anything our forefathers did either. I didn't attack people simply because I'm Christian. I simply believe in God and that is all there is.

[Miserabilia]

To the Jews. Not to me. The point of a Christian is to believe in Jesus as our personal lord and savior. War and other issues don't fit into that. We are supposed to live right but we aren't supposed to take credit for anything our forefathers did either. I didn't attack people simply because I'm Christian. I simply believe in God and that is all there is.

To the Jews. Not to me. The point of a Christian is to believe in Jesus as our personal lord and savior. War and other issues don't fit into that.

That's cherry picking the bible; alot of christians choose different part of the bible as their own. It comes down to interpetation

We are supposed to live right but we aren't supposed to take credit for anything our forefathers did either.

I aggree, but the thing is that the bible says it was a mission of god.
Saying otherwise is cherry picking.

I simply believe in God and that is all there is.

And that's all there should be, but your bible gives one very different ideas of god, which was my original point.

[Lovelife090994]

That's cherry picking the bible; alot of christians choose different part of the bible as their own. It comes down to interpetation



I aggree, but the thing is that the bible says it was a mission of god.
Saying otherwise is cherry picking.



And that's all there should be, but your bible gives one very different ideas of god, which was my original point.

Christians don't agree with everything in the Bible. That's why there is a New Testament in the first place. Jesus himself spoke against the violence in it. "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."

[Miserabilia]

Christians don't agree with everything in the Bible. That's why there is a New Testament in the first place. Jesus himself spoke against the violence in it. "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."

That's the parts you choose to listen too.
There are also christians who take the bible, including everything in the old testament, literal.

[phuckphace]

2)The Salem Witch Trials. Completely innocent women punished (some executed) for causing sickness in Salem, Massachusetts.

I don't think the Salem Witch Trials are all that notable or worth devoting much attention to. IIRC they were confined mostly to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and resulted in about 30(?) people being executed. sure they are fascinating both from a historical standpoint as well as the macabre one, but in the annals of history far more people have been killed for no reason at all, and more systematically. I get the sense that the Trials are often used by people of a certain ideological affiliation to portray the colonial US as being populated entirely by "THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELLETH THEE" nutjobs, which is inaccurate and ahistorical.

tl;dr - they were a curiosity but not exactly the huge blight on Christendom that some people seem to think.

[Living For Love]

That's really sweet-we're quite clearly not that perfect. If we were his perfect creation then why do we have such weak useless necks? You've seen the human neck right? It snaps like a twig. Surely if God made us perfect that we wouldn't suffer from such basic failures. If we were perfect then why would we go through evolution? I'm sure you'll somehow claim that it's all God's plan but surely something this powerful should be a bit smarter.

I'l also ask my two previous points A) Do you agree with genocide? B) Why would God give us free will and then complain we when rebel?

You've just picked one example of the human fragilities. What about all the other things that God created and that exist in the real world? Not only in the human body, there are lots of examples.

And about your two points: A) I don't agree with genocide. B) So you think that rebelling will always happen and it's the good thing to do? Like, I am free, so I will obviously rebel, because I'm such a badass. The choice people were given was the good one, yet they didn't accept it. The Bible tell us there was not even one good person, apart from Noah's family, and that Earth was filled with corruption and violence, to the point that God regretted creating mankind.

[Miserabilia]

You've just picked one example of the human fragilities. What about all the other things that God created and that exist in the real world? Not only in the human body, there are lots of examples.

And about your two points: A) I don't agree with genocide. B) So you think that rebelling will always happen and it's the good thing to do? Like, I am free, so I will obviously rebel, because I'm such a badass. The choice people were given was the good one, yet they didn't accept it. The Bible tell us there was not even one good person, apart from Noah's family, and that Earth was filled with corruption and violence, to the point that God regretted creating mankind.

Harry's point was obvious, and you are making it more obvious;
if god didn't want us to choose evil,
why let us choose evil anyway?
It's clear that people will choose evil when they can,
which the old testament stories are metaphores for.

[Living For Love]

Harry's point was obvious, and you are making it more obvious;
if god didn't want us to choose evil,
why let us choose evil anyway?
It's clear that people will choose evil when they can,
which the old testament stories are metaphores for.

Lol, I was being ironic. People rebelled, that's why they were punished. They could do it or not do it at all, but they chose to disobey God. Though you can always argue that evil is in our nature by "default", so disobeying would be normal. Still, people have brains to think, and to measure the consequences of their actions.

[Harry Smith]

You've just picked one example of the human fragilities. What about all the other things that God created and that exist in the real world? Not only in the human body, there are lots of examples.

And about your two points: A) I don't agree with genocide. B) So you think that rebelling will always happen and it's the good thing to do? Like, I am free, so I will obviously rebel, because I'm such a badass. The choice people were given was the good one, yet they didn't accept it. The Bible tell us there was not even one good person, apart from Noah's family, and that Earth was filled with corruption and violence, to the point that God regretted creating mankind.

So you're ignorign the point about the neck? It's just I really want to hammer it home, you claimed he created us perfectly, yet how come our necks are so weak?

Do you believe that the story of Noah Ark's is fact? Or do you think it's just a story?

[Lovelife090994]

That's the parts you choose to listen too.
There are also christians who take the bible, including everything in the old testament, literal.

Maybe, but we are not permitted to kill. Thou shalt not murder or "kill" in most cases is taken very seriously. It is not about ignoring. We look to the Old but learn from the mistakes which are readdressed in the New. Christianity grew out of the Old Judaism which is why we have the New Testament.

So you're ignorign the point about the neck? It's just I really want to hammer it home, you claimed he created us perfectly, yet how come our necks are so weak?

Do you believe that the story of Noah Ark's is fact? Or do you think it's just a story?

Humans are human. We have limits. We are not gods, and we are not animals. Humans are amazing but we also are fragile.

[Miserabilia]

Maybe, but we are not permitted to kill. Thou shalt not murder or "kill" in most cases is taken very seriously. It is not about ignoring. We look to the Old but learn from the mistakes which are readdressed in the New. Christianity grew out of the Old Judaism which is why we have the New Testament.



Humans are human. We have limits. We are not gods, and we are not animals. Humans are amazing but we also are fragile.

It is not about ignoring.[/QUOTE

It seems to be;
you're promoting "thou shalt not kill" yet the bible says god commanded them to murder everyone in a town.
Saying otherwise is ignoring the old testament.

[QUOTE]Christianity grew out of the Old Judaism which is why we have the New Testament.

Well that is just how you see it.
See it as you like,
but the old testament is still part of the christian bible,
and in nowhere in the new testament it is specificaly said to not take the old testament literaly,
which is the reason as like I said,
there are still christians who take both old and new testament literaly.



Lol, I was being ironic. People rebelled, that's why they were punished. They could do it or not do it at all, but they chose to disobey God. Though you can always argue that evil is in our nature by "default", so disobeying would be normal. Still, people have brains to think, and to measure the consequences of their actions.

Which leaves one to wonder;
why would god give humans free will, if he didn't want them to choose evil?

[Lovelife090994]

[QUOTE] It is not about ignoring.[/QUOTE

It seems to be;
you're promoting "thou shalt not kill" yet the bible says god commanded them to murder everyone in a town.
Saying otherwise is ignoring the old testament.



Well that is just how you see it.
See it as you like,
but the old testament is still part of the christian bible,
and in nowhere in the new testament it is specificaly said to not take the old testament literaly,
which is the reason as like I said,
there are still christians who take both old and new testament literaly.





Which leaves one to wonder;
why would god give humans free will, if he didn't want them to choose evil?

Why would a person choose evil in the first place is the real question. Some people take the Quran literally, do you paint all the Muslims the same color?

This is not about ignoring or me. It's the ways of a Christian. God never instructs people to kill. That God mentioned before is probably to do with man rewriting the story. God doesn't stand by war. He is not a God of war. Besides, just because some Christians take the Bible literally doesn't mean I do. Why imply that? I thought you were smarter than that.

[Harry Smith]

We have limits. .

But you said that God created us perfectly, but he quite clearly didn't. I mean this is another piece of hypocrisy by Christians.

Your also ignoring the claim that me and Cheesee have made-why would God give us free will and then complain when we don't follow him? He's suppose to be a smart being but the version presented by Christians has him looking very bad

[Miserabilia]

[QUOTE=cheesee;2814094]

Why would a person choose evil in the first place is the real question. Some people take the Quran literally, do you paint all the Muslims the same color?

This is not about ignoring or me. It's the ways of a Christian. God never instructs people to kill. That God mentioned before is probably to do with man rewriting the story. God doesn't stand by war. He is not a God of war. Besides, just because some Christians take the Bible literally doesn't mean I do. Why imply that? I thought you were smarter than that.

do you paint all the Muslims the same color?

Um, no, also, not relevant.

God never instructs people to kill. That God mentioned before is probably to do with man rewriting the story. God doesn't stand by war. He is not a God of war. Besides, just because some Christians take the Bible literally doesn't mean I do. Why imply that? I thought you were smarter than that.

Besides, just because some Christians take the Bible literally doesn't mean I do. Why imply that?

That's not what I'm implying at all? And I found your last comment so passive aggresive I don't think I want to respond to it.

God never instructs people to kill. That God mentioned before is probably to do with man rewriting the story.

Probably?
Do you have strong evidence that anything said about god in the old testament is false and anything said about him in the new testament is true?
Because this sounds an awful lot like cherry picking.

[Lovelife090994]

But you said that God created us perfectly, but he quite clearly didn't. I mean this is another piece of hypocrisy by Christians.

Your also ignoring the claim that me and Cheesee have made-why would God give us free will and then complain when we don't follow him? He's suppose to be a smart being but the version presented by Christians has him looking very bad

And you're making yourself look good by being arrogant and mean? How does painting all Christendom the same help you? Humans have limits. Until we leave this fleshy shell we are bound to them. Besides humans are not supposed to be invincible. Some people have that problem already; thinking themselves high.

[QUOTE=Lovelife090994;2814115]



Um, no, also, not relevant.





That's not what I'm implying at all? And I found your last comment so passive aggresive I don't think I want to respond to it.



Probably?
Do you have strong evidence that anything said about god in the old testament is false and anything said about him in the new testament is true?
Because this sounds an awful lot like cherry picking.


Passive aggressive? You're painting all of Christendom the same, when we are not all the same. Cherry picking? if quoting the Bible is cherry picking to you then I can't tell you anything. You think all Christians cherry pick and that all we say is the sweet cherry. I am not discrediting the Old Testament, but I know well that God is not going to tell us to kill. Matthew 5:44 we should speak good to our enemies and bless them still. We are not to hate.

[Miserabilia]

And you're making yourself look good by being arrogant and mean? How does painting all Christendom the same help you? Humans have limits. Until we leave this fleshy shell we are bound to them. Besides humans are not supposed to be invincible. Some people have that problem already; thinking themselves high.

[QUOTE=cheesee;2814149]


Passive aggressive? You're painting all of Christendom the same, when we are not all the same. Cherry picking? if quoting the Bible is cherry picking to you then I can't tell you anything. You think all Christians cherry pick and that all we say is the sweet cherry. I am not discrediting the Old Testament, but I know well that God is not going to tell us to kill. Matthew 5:44 we should speak good to our enemies and bless them still. We are not to hate.
Passive aggressive?

"I thought you were smarter than that"
is a passive aggresive comment.

You're painting all of Christendom the same, when we are not all the same.

Um, no. I'm not saying anything about christianity in it's interity.

Cherry picking? if quoting the Bible is cherry picking to you then I can't tell you anything.

Could you quote me where the bible explicitely tells you to only take the new testament literal and not the old?
Thanks.

I am not discrediting the Old Testament, but I know well that God is not going to tell us to kill.

yet it says so in the old testament.
Saying otherwise like you just did, is not taking the old testament literal, and again I ask you;
what reason do you have to choose the new testament and not the old testamen to take literal?

[Lovelife090994]

[QUOTE=Lovelife090994;2814167]And you're making yourself look good by being arrogant and mean? How does painting all Christendom the same help you? Humans have limits. Until we leave this fleshy shell we are bound to them. Besides humans are not supposed to be invincible. Some people have that problem already; thinking themselves high.




"I thought you were smarter than that"
is a passive aggresive comment.



Um, no. I'm not saying anything about christianity in it's interity.



Could you quote me where the bible explicitely tells you to only take the new testament literal and not the old?
Thanks.



yet it says so in the old testament.
Saying otherwise like you just did, is not taking the old testament literal, and again I ask you;
what reason do you have to choose the new testament and not the old testamen to take literal?

Christians aren't supposed to take the Bible literally. We take history literally and the ideas, concepts, and words of God literally. Who told you I take the Bible literally? I honestly can't talk right now. I'm slithering down into my daily depression spiral again. Good bye for today, maybe tomorrow too at this rate.

[Miserabilia]

[QUOTE=cheesee;2814171]

Christians aren't supposed to take the Bible literally. We take history literally and the ideas, concepts, and words of God literally. Who told you I take the Bible literally? I honestly can't talk right now. I'm slithering down into my daily depression spiral again. Good bye for today, maybe tomorrow too at this rate.

Christians aren't supposed to take the Bible literally.
Where are you getting this information of what hristians are and are not supposed to do?
Because there are still many christians who take the bible literaly.

Who told you I take the Bible literally?

Sigh I am losing my patience here; I am not saying YOU take the bible literaly, I'm not talking about you. Please reread my posts and try to notice the distinct difference between saying you do anything and talking about a completely different group of people.

I honestly can't talk right now. I'm slithering down into my daily depression spiral again. Good bye for today, maybe tomorrow too at this rate.

I'm sorry ):
Hope you feel better later.

[Lovelife090994]

[QUOTE=Lovelife090994;2814183]


Where are you getting this information of what hristians are and are not supposed to do?
Because there are still many christians who take the bible literaly.



Sigh I am losing my patience here; I am not saying YOU take the bible literaly, I'm not talking about you. Please reread my posts and try to notice the distinct difference between saying you do anything and talking about a completely different group of people.



I'm sorry ):
Hope you feel better later.

The Bible itself says so! You're aren't supposed to kill people or stone people. Just because someone takes the Bible literal that doesn't make it right. Terrorists take the Quran literally and they are wrong and crazy. Christians who take the Bible literal are misguided. I am going by what I know. But you don't care, you just want an excuse to spit on me and hurt others. You're not listening. You don't care, keep your sympathy, it's not true. You don't care, like everyone else.

[Miserabilia]

[QUOTE=cheesee;2814223]

The Bible itself says so! You're aren't supposed to kill people or stone people. Just because someone takes the Bible literal that doesn't make it right. Terrorists take the Quran literally and they are wrong and crazy. Christians who take the Bible literal are misguided. I am going by what I know. But you don't care, you just want an excuse to spit on me and hurt others. You're not listening. You don't care, keep your sympathy, it's not true. You don't care, like everyone else.

The Bible itself says so! You're aren't supposed to kill people or stone people.

That just shows a contradictory bible which isn't really in your favour??

Christians who take the Bible literal are misguided.

What argument is there to support that they are misguided, and not christians who don't take the whole bible literaly?
After all the bible itself says it's the word of god.

But you don't care, you just want an excuse to spit on me and hurt others.

:confused:

You're not listening. You don't care, keep your sympathy, it's not true. You don't care, like everyone else.

Trust me, I do.
I care whatever you feel or if you feel bad or if you are depressed,
don't think that i don't care because our views differ on anything else,
because I do.

[Lovelife090994]

[QUOTE=Lovelife090994;2814237]

That just shows a contradictory bible which isn't really in your favour??

What argument is there to support that they are misguided, and not christians who don't take the whole bible literaly?
After all the bible itself says it's the word of god.

:confused:

Trust me, I do.
I care whatever you feel or if you feel bad or if you are depressed,
don't think that i don't care because our views differ on anything else,
because I do.

It doesn't matter anyway. Nothing I'm saying makes sense to you. Once again my words are meaningless just like me. I'm going to cry and scream now. I have no one.

[Miserabilia]

[QUOTE=cheesee;2814252]

It doesn't matter anyway. Nothing I'm saying makes sense to you. Once again my words are meaningless just like me. I'm going to cry and scream now. I have no one.

:(

sure you do.
I bet there are alot of people including me that don't want you to be hurt or feel bad. You always have someone even if you don't realize.

[Lovelife090994]

[QUOTE=Lovelife090994;2814255]

:(

sure you do.
I bet there are alot of people including me that don't want you to be hurt or feel bad. You always have someone even if you don't realize.

No, no, just forget about it. I'm better off alone. I plan to leave the site anyway. At this rate no will take me. I'm not up to par with any group. PM me if you want. I'm done, with everything.

[Stronk Serb]

So you're ignorign the point about the neck? It's just I really want to hammer it home, you claimed he created us perfectly, yet how come our necks are so weak?

Do you believe that the story of Noah Ark's is fact? Or do you think it's just a story?

What about our teeth and digestion organs? Our teeth are fragile, I can bite a plank and break them, our digestion system is imperfect, we suffer from food poisoning.

[ksdnfkfr]

[QUOTE=cheesee;2814223]

The Bible itself says so! You're aren't supposed to kill people or stone people. Just because someone takes the Bible literal that doesn't make it right. Terrorists take the Quran literally and they are wrong and crazy. Christians who take the Bible literal are misguided. I am going by what I know. But you don't care, you just want an excuse to spit on me and hurt others. You're not listening. You don't care, keep your sympathy, it's not true. You don't care, like everyone else.

i've been talking to a Jew from Israel who knows the Torah and Talmud thoroughly, and says the teachings of the Torah when it comes to things like to stoning people to death, destroying villages of all men, women and children... especially bashing babies to pieces against rocks was very literal. that's how those primitive nomadic bronze age people operated thousands of years ago. That's how the Holy Land was established. there's even regular historical data to support this. and i don't think any actual bible scholar / historian would deny it. My friend said everyone has a mortal death sentence on them anyways and if god decides to send his army in to take them out then and there, that's god's right.... they were gong to die anyways. that's the theology.

[Living For Love]

So you're ignorign the point about the neck? It's just I really want to hammer it home, you claimed he created us perfectly, yet how come our necks are so weak?

Do you believe that the story of Noah Ark's is fact? Or do you think it's just a story?

We are humans, we have flaws, but when I said we were God's perfect creation, it's because God created mankind in his own image. So our body is the closest thing we have in common with God, physically speaking.

And yes, I do believe in the story of Noah's Ark.

[Miserabilia]

We are humans, we have flaws, but when I said we were God's perfect creation, it's because God created mankind in his own image. So our body is the closest thing we have in common with God, physically speaking.

And yes, I do believe in the story of Noah's Ark.

Oh.. You are a creationist...
Just out of curiousity, why do you beleive in the story of noah's ark when all physical evidence points in the other direction?
And when it is theoreticaly impossible for such a thing to even exist?
I mean I understand if the story is taken as a metaphorical story or based on other events,
but it's impossible for it to have actualy happened.

[Harry Smith]

And yes, I do believe in the story of Noah's Ark.

Oh wow-I've got a couple of curve balls for you

1) Why didnt the animals eat each other
2) How did Noah find all the animals so quickly
3) How did the he make a boat that big without any form of production
4) If it's only him and his family get ready for some inbreeding
5) Do you only believe it because it's written in a book?

[Living For Love]

Oh.. You are a creationist...
Just out of curiousity, why do you beleive in the story of noah's ark when all physical evidence points in the other direction?
Physical evidence? Can you please be more specific?

Oh wow-I've got a couple of curve balls for you

1) Why didnt the animals eat each other
2) How did Noah find all the animals so quickly
3) How did the he make a boat that big without any form of production
4) If it's only him and his family get ready for some inbreeding
5) Do you only believe it because it's written in a book?
God was in command of everything, and he had enough power to make animals not to eat each other, find the boat to board and help Noah building the ark. And I believe in it because it's written in a book in which I believe. But that's not even the point of this thread so I'm not going to explain more.

[Miserabilia]

Physical evidence? Can you please be more specific?


God was in command of everything, and he had enough power to make animals not to eat each other, find the boat to board and help Noah building the ark. And I believe in it because it's written in a book in which I believe. But that's not even the point of this thread so I'm not going to explain more.

Alrighty then.
Just so you know all evidence points in the exact opposite direction just-science-checking-in

[Living For Love]

Alrighty then.
Just so you know all evidence points in the exact opposite direction just-science-checking-in
Yeah, sure.

[Miserabilia]

Yeah, sure.

okaythen :P

[Harry Smith]

Physical evidence? Can you please be more specific?


God was in command of everything, and he had enough power to make animals not to eat each other, find the boat to board and help Noah building the ark. And I believe in it because it's written in a book in which I believe. But that's not even the point of this thread so I'm not going to explain more.

Why didn't God use this power during the holocaust? I mean can't you see how it would of been useful to save you know those 6 million people

[Living For Love]

Why didn't God use this power during the holocaust? I mean can't you see how it would of been useful to save you know those 6 million people

Because the Holocaust was foreseen and written in the Bible thousands of years before it happened, it was all part of God's plan.

[Sir Suomi]

Because the Holocaust was foreseen and written in the Bible thousands of years before it happened, it was all part of God's plan.

So God does support genocide then?

[Miserabilia]

Because the Holocaust was foreseen and written in the Bible thousands of years before it happened, it was all part of God's plan.

Could you quote the bible on this please?
I would like to see the bible make an accurate detailed prediction of the holocaust.
Also, that's a pretty f*ed up plan.
If s*ts like that part's of god's plan, I don't see why I'd hope he'd do anything good for me.

[Vlerchan]

So God does support genocide then?
It's not that god supports genocide.

It's that god values the upholding of free will for all of humanity above human lives.

[Harry Smith]

Because the Holocaust was foreseen and written in the Bible thousands of years before it happened, it was all part of God's plan.

I think we should all base our life on this God because he sounds like a great guy-genocide ftw

It's not that god supports genocide.

It's that god values the upholding of free will for all of humanity above human lives.

Not that much better tbh-all it shows that God kills us (so they claim) if we don't follow his orders

[Miserabilia]

Because the Holocaust was foreseen and written in the Bible thousands of years before it happened, it was all part of God's plan.

It's not that god supports genocide.

It's that god values the upholding of free will for all of humanity above human lives.

Dance in the Dark clearly said "It was all part of god's plan",
which seems to me that god supports genocide, if it's part of his "plan", no?

EDIT:
Okay he may not support it,
but he is allowing it and tolerating it,
and when an allmighty being does that while he can just as easy stop it,
it's basicly supporting

[Sir Suomi]

It's not that god supports genocide.

It's that god values the upholding of free will for all of humanity above human lives.

So you're going to tell me he both knew it was going to happen, and said "oh well", and let it happen? If that's the case, there's no way I'd want to spend an eternity with that being.

[saea97]

Yeah, sure.

When the Ark landed in Turkey and the kangaroos got off, how did they get all the way to Australia without there being a single kangaroo fossil along the way?

[Miserabilia]

When the Ark landed in Turkey and the kangaroos got off, how did they get all the way to Australia without there being a single kangaroo fossil along the way?

Or a better question;
how did they get there in the first place.

(Well duh god made them a bridge pff and then he removed the evidence :rolleyes:)

[Sir Suomi]

When the Ark landed in Turkey and the kangaroos got off, how did they get all the way to Australia without there being a single kangaroo fossil along the way?

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8zAJ6zAWO36dThQF3o1l4hYQPpeZRt4LzZlgPh_ME1i2yY5JznhPNBSxq

[Living For Love]

So God does support genocide then?
I think we should all base our life on this God because he sounds like a great guy-genocide ftw
God allowed the Holocaust for the same reason that he has permitted all human suffering: to settle moral issues that were raised long ago.

Could you quote the bible on this please?
I would like to see the bible make an accurate detailed prediction of the holocaust.
Also, that's a pretty f*ed up plan.
If s*ts like that part's of god's plan, I don't see why I'd hope he'd do anything good for me.

Through the prophet Moses who led them out of slavery in Egypt, God brought the descendants of Israel into a covenant with himself. Its terms included the Ten Commandments plus hundreds of other laws. If they would keep this covenant, the Jewish people would be blessed above all other nations. But, if they failed to keep these laws, they would be punished severely. Ultimately, if the Jews persisted in breaking God's laws, they would be uprooted from the Promised Land and deported into all the other nations (Jewish diaspora).
And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. Deuteronomy 28:64

There, they would suffer the consequences (The Holocaust and all other forms of Jewish prosecution).
And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the Lord will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul. Deuteronomy 28:65
Basically, Deuteronomy 28 gives you all the information about what would happen if the descendants of Israel obeyed and what would happen if they didn't.

[Miserabilia]

God allowed the Holocaust for the same reason that he has permitted all human suffering: to settle moral issues that were raised long ago.



Through the prophet Moses who led them out of slavery in Egypt, God brought the descendants of Israel into a covenant with himself. Its terms included the Ten Commandments plus hundreds of other laws. If they would keep this covenant, the Jewish people would be blessed above all other nations. But, if they failed to keep these laws, they would be punished severely. Ultimately, if the Jews persisted in breaking God's laws, they would be uprooted from the Promised Land and deported into all the other nations (Jewish diaspora).

There, they would suffer the consequences (The Holocaust and all other forms of Jewish prosecution).

Basically, Deuteronomy 28 gives you all the information about what would happen if the descendants of Israel obeyed and what would happen if they didn't.

to settle moral issues that were raised long ago.

Could you tell me what moral issue made the genocide of jews a neccecairy thing?
I'm kinda itching to know now.


There, they would suffer the consequences (The Holocaust and all other forms of Jewish prosecution).

Rght because you know it's totaly their fault what their forefather's of 10 generations before did.

You know this is all just adding on to the pile of things that make God seem like kind of an a*hole

[Living For Love]

Could you tell me what moral issue made the genocide of jews a neccecairy thing?
I'm kinda itching to know now.
Disobeying God's laws, the one that saved them from slavery in Egypt.

Rght because you know it's totaly their fault what their forefather's of 10 generations before did.

You know this is all just adding on to the pile of things that make God seem like kind of an a*hole
Sins are hereditary. And because people sinned in the first place, they were removed from God's presence, and they must seek salvation again.

[Sir Suomi]

You know this is all just adding on to the pile of things that make God seem like kind of an a*hole

I couldn't agree more.

[Vlerchan]

So you're going to tell me he both knew it was going to happen, and said "oh well", and let it happen?
God preserved Free Will in the name of the greater good.

For god it was preferable for many to die but for man's sense of free will to be upheld that for none to die but for man to be little more than those enslaved to god. Because it was god making this decision it is (by definition) the best course of action, accept it or don't.

[saea97]

Sins are hereditary.

If this was true (it isn't) it would immediately make both the Christian God - and people's faith/love in him - despicable.

[Living For Love]

If this was true (it isn't) it would immediately make both the Christian God - and people's faith/love in him - despicable.

Lol, why?

[saea97]

Lol, why?

Because this being and his followers see no moral issues in the capricious condemnation of people for wrongdoing that they had no part in.

[ksdnfkfr]

There's two things that come to my mind about god preventing evil etc.

The first is, if god prevented the city of new york (manhattan island) from being nuked into oblivion, how would we know he prevented it since he kept it from happening? just theoretically speaking, maybe there's tons of evil stuff god did prevent, but we don't know about it.

the second is, if you think god should prevent stuff, how far would you want him to go? i mean if god is supposed to stop people form doing things like the holocaust and 911, then he should also stop everyone from doing everything bad. how much of that kind of control would you want god to force on everyone, especially you?

[Miserabilia]

Sins are hereditary. And because people sinned in the first place, they were removed from God's presence, and they must seek salvation again.

Why don't we all get a genocide then?
All our forefathers have sinned at one point or another,
why aren't we all gassed by now?

[Living For Love]

Because this being and his followers see no moral issues in the capricious condemnation of people for wrongdoing that they had no part in.
Why don't we all get a genocide then?
All our forefathers have sinned at one point or another,
why aren't we all gassed by now?
Sin is hereditary, but since Jesus died from all our sins, we don't have to suffer the consequence of our ancestor's sins anymore. God had mercy on us, and that's why he sent his son. That's why we're not gassed by now, because if we were, God's plan wouldn't make any sense.

[Harry Smith]

There's two things that come to my mind about god preventing evil etc.

The first is, if god prevented the city of new york (manhattan island) from being nuked into oblivion, how would we know he prevented it since he kept it from happening? just theoretically speaking, maybe there's tons of evil stuff god did prevent, but we don't know about it.

the second is, if you think god should prevent stuff, how far would you want him to go? i mean if god is supposed to stop people form doing things like the holocaust and 911, then he should also stop everyone from doing everything bad. how much of that kind of control would you want god to force on everyone, especially you?

I'm sure if God did save us he'd write it down in a book.

Am I the only one who finds it convenient that all this stuff happened before we had any accurate recording devices (e.g camera, phones)

Sin is hereditary, but since Jesus died from all our sins, we don't have to suffer the consequence of our ancestor's sins anymore. God had mercy on us, and that's why he sent his son. That's why we're not gassed by now, because if we were, God's plan wouldn't make any sense.

Can you please not state it as fuck-because the only evidence you have is a book written 2000 years ago, which also tells us that we shouldn't wear different clothes and that we should love our slave masters. Why anybody follows the bible it really confuses me because it's a glorified story book

[Miserabilia]

Sin is hereditary, but since Jesus died from all our sins, we don't have to suffer the consequence of our ancestor's sins anymore. God had mercy on us, and that's why he sent his son. That's why we're not gassed by now, because if we were, God's plan wouldn't make any sense.

So jesus only died for the sins of "us" christians?
Because I'm not christian and I haven't been gassed,
and also,
this still makes it seem like god's a d*ck,
jesus was supposed to die for all of our sins and give humanity a clean slate, I don't see why that wouldn't apply to jews.

[saea97]

Sin is hereditary, but since Jesus died from all our sins, we don't have to suffer the consequence of our ancestor's sins anymore. God had mercy on us, and that's why he sent his son. That's why we're not gassed by now, because if we were, God's plan wouldn't make any sense.

Why did Jesus NEED to die for our sins? Couldn't God have devised a better method of forgiveness than sending a lunatic to the Palestinian desert to be crucified by Romans?

[Living For Love]

So jesus only died for the sins of "us" christians?
Because I'm not christian and I haven't been gassed,
and also,
this still makes it seem like god's a d*ck,
jesus was supposed to die for all of our sins and give humanity a clean slate, I don't see why that wouldn't apply to jews.
Jesus died for everyone's sins, including yours.

Why did Jesus NEED to die for our sins? Couldn't God have devised a better method of forgiveness than sending a lunatic to the Palestinian desert to be crucified by Romans?
Because we needed someone in whom there was no trace of sin and injustice, the only person was Jesus. And God didn't send Jesus to die for our sins. Jesus volunteered himself for it.

[Miserabilia]

Sin is hereditary, but since Jesus died from all our sins, we don't have to suffer the consequence of our ancestor's sins anymore. God had mercy on us, and that's why he sent his son. That's why we're not gassed by now, because if we were, God's plan wouldn't make any sense.

Jesus died for everyone's sins, including yours.


Okay then back to the previous point; why the holocaust????

[Living For Love]

Okay then back to the previous point; why the holocaust????
The Holocaust happened because Jews had to pay for what they've done. The Holocaust and God's plans to save mankind are two different things.

[Miserabilia]

Jesus died for everyone's sins, including yours.


The Holocaust happened because Jews had to pay for what they've done. The Holocaust and God's plans to save mankind are two different things.

....
...
.
..

:what:

Jesus died for everyone's sins, but "the jews' had to pay for what they had done?

[Harry Smith]

The Holocaust happened because Jews had to pay for what they've done. The Holocaust and God's plans to save mankind are two different things.

That's not anti-Semitic at all

[Living For Love]

....
...
.
..

:what:

Jesus died for everyone's sins, but "the jews' had to pay for what they had done?
I'm going to try and keep this simple: the Jews disobeyed God, so he said that the future generations would pay for their sins. That's why the Holocaust happened. Period. Now, when Jesus died for our sins, he died so that all those who didn't belong to God could now have access to him. Jews are different because they were the people God elected to be his people. They were already his, and once you're in God's possession, you can't come back. They suffered for what they've done, but God still considers them their people. You got it now?

That's not anti-Semitic at all
It's a matter of justice and agreement between God and the people he chose.

[Harry Smith]

I

It's a matter of justice and agreement between God and the people he chose.

No it's not-your justifying the mass murder of 6 million Jews on a dusty old book, and a magical being in the sky which probably doesn't exist. Justice? You're really selling Christianity to me-I'm surprised God hasn't killed all the gays next because that's justice right. It's not justice to march 6 million people to their death based on the 'crimes' of their ancestors

[Living For Love]

No it's not-your justifying the mass murder of 6 million Jews on a dusty old book, and a magical being in the sky which probably doesn't exist. Justice? You're really selling Christianity to me-I'm surprised God hasn't killed all the gays next because that's justice right
Well, according to my beliefs, that's what happened, and those are the reasons of why it happened. I'm not selling anything to you, I'm just stating my opinion and answering to questions. And why would God kill all gay people anyway?

[Harry Smith]

Well, according to my beliefs, that's what happened, and those are the reasons of why it happened. I'm not selling anything to you, I'm just stating my opinion and answering to questions. And why would God kill all gay people anyway?

Because they disobeyed god, as you claim the Jews also did

[Living For Love]

Because they disobeyed god, as you claim the Jews also did
Everyone disobeys God all the time. The Jews are treated differently because they are God's elected people. During the Old Testament everything was different. Now that Jesus has died, things have changed, and God has now a plan to save, not only the Jews, but everyone who wishes so.

[Miserabilia]

I'm going to try and keep this simple: the Jews disobeyed God, so he said that the future generations would pay for their sins. That's why the Holocaust happened. Period. Now, when Jesus died for our sins, he died so that all those who didn't belong to God could now have access to him. Jews are different because they were the people God elected to be his people. They were already his, and once you're in God's possession, you can't come back. They suffered for what they've done, but God still considers them their people. You got it now?


Okay, this does overrule what you said about jesus dying for everyone's sins though, because this makes it appearent that it's not the case.


It's a matter of justice and agreement between God and the people he chose.

That's not justice.
Future generations are in no way responsible for their ancestors actions.

Everyone disobeys God all the time. The Jews are treated differently because they are God's elected people. During the Old Testament everything was different. Now that Jesus has died, things have changed, and God has now a plan to save, not only the Jews, but everyone who wishes so.

How are they being saved by the holocaust?

[Living For Love]

Okay, this does overrule what you said about jesus dying for everyone's sins though, because this makes it appearent that it's not the case.
I'm going to repeat this again: the fact that Jesus died for our sins and the fact that Jews would suffer the horrors of the Holocaust are not related. The former is about achieving eternal life, for everyone. The latter is about fulfilling a promise.

That's not justice.
Future generations are in no way responsible for their ancestors actions.
They knew that would be one consequence of their actions, yet they still disobeyed God.

How are they being saved by the holocaust?
The Holocaust didn't save anyone, it was just a consequence. After the Jews paid for what they've done, they will now achieve salvation just like everyone else who desires it.

[Harry Smith]

The Holocaust didn't save anyone, it was just a consequence. After the Jews paid for what they've done, they will now achieve salvation just like everyone else who desires it.

Your deluded. You make mass murder look like a good thing, I'd actually love you to talk to someone who lived in the camps and say this

[Living For Love]

Your deluded. You make mass murder look like a good thing, I'd actually love you to talk to someone who lived in the camps and say this
I know how this can upset someone who's an atheist. The Holocaust surely wasn't a good thing, but it happened for a purpose. This was part of God's plan, and one day I believe we'll understand everything much clearly.

[Gamma Male]

I know how this can upset someone who's an atheist. The Holocaust surely wasn't a good thing, but it happened for a purpose. This was part of God's plan, and one day I believe we'll understand everything much clearly.

This God fellow sounds like one fucked up guy. If I were put in charge of the universe, I'm sure I could come up with a much better plan. And I'm just a stupid highly evolved 14 year old primate living on a small, insignificant pale blue dot on the outskirts of one of trillions of galaxies.

[Miserabilia]

I know how this can upset someone who's an atheist. The Holocaust surely wasn't a good thing, but it happened for a purpose. This was part of God's plan, and one day I believe we'll understand everything much clearly.

That's a justification for the holocaust without any actualy justification.
Your basicly taking credit with god for the holocaust, which isn't really helping to make your beleifs look good; I know they are your personal beleifs and I respect that, but this isn't really helping.

I'm going to repeat this again: the fact that Jesus died for our sins and the fact that Jews would suffer the horrors of the Holocaust are not related. The former is about achieving eternal life, for everyone. The latter is about fulfilling a promise.


I asked why aren't we all gassed and killed with genocide, if sins are heridatry; you answered with jesus died for our sins.
By your own logic these things are completely related.





The Holocaust didn't save anyone, it was just a consequence. After the Jews paid for what they've done, they will now achieve salvation just like everyone else who desires it.

I'm sorry but that is a really messed up view of the holocaust, like come on man.
After the Jews paid for what they've done
That's terrible. I can't even begin to explain how morally wrong that view is, even if it's a part of a religious beleif.

[Living For Love]

That's a justification for the holocaust without any actualy justification.
Your basicly taking credit with god for the holocaust, which isn't really helping to make your beleifs look good; I know they are your personal beleifs and I respect that, but this isn't really helping.
Well, I can't understand everything either, but part of this you understand using your faith, the faith that you trust a God that knows what's best for you and the hope you have that one day everyone will know the truth.

I asked why aren't we all gassed and killed with genocide, if sins are heridatry; you answered with jesus died for our sins.
By your own logic these things are completely related.
Jesus died for our sins, so now we can have a close relationship with God, based on faith and trust. But the sins the Jews committed were done before Jesus even existed, so it doesn't apply the same way.

I'm sorry but that is a really messed up view of the holocaust, like come on man.
That's terrible. I can't even begin to explain how morally wrong that view is, even if it's a part of a religious beleif.
Like I said, they knew what was going to happen before they disobeyed God. You think God felt some kind of pleasure watching his own people being gassed in chambers and treated like animals? I'm sure he didn't, but it had to be done, because God keeps his promises.

[Stronk Serb]

I know how this can upset someone who's an atheist. The Holocaust surely wasn't a good thing, but it happened for a purpose. This was part of God's plan, and one day I believe we'll understand everything much clearly.

So my family who died in Ustasha death camps, who weren't even Jewish, were parts of God's plan? This makes Satan seem like a nice guy. Satan ftw! 666

[LouBerry]

So my family who died in Ustasha death camps, who weren't even Jewish, were parts of God's plan? This makes Satan seem like a nice guy. Satan ftw! 666

I think you're forgetting that God didn't make that happen. It was humans who put people in death camps. Humans who started wars and murdered all those people, not God.

Sure, He gives everyone the free will to do what they want, but before you say he shouldn't, what if you had no choice but to go to church every day, to pray all the time, and to love God so much you'd be ready to take a bullet if you needed to spread his word or defend it. You don't like the sound of that do you?

[Stronk Serb]

I think you're forgetting that God didn't make that happen. It was humans who put people in death camps. Humans who started wars and murdered all those people, not God.

Sure, He gives everyone the free will to do what they want, but before you say he shouldn't, what if you had no choice but to go to church every day, to pray all the time, and to love God so much you'd be ready to take a bullet if you needed to spread his word or defend it. You don't like the sound of that do you?


I was just asking him if it truly was God's plan to start the Holocaust. The fact he gave us free will means he is not all-knowing because he can't know what we will do next. From this standpoint, what you said sounds pretty messed up, but if we were like that all of our lives, it wouldn't matter, because it's the only thing we know.

[Miserabilia]

I think you're forgetting that God didn't make that happen. It was humans who put people in death camps. Humans who started wars and murdered all those people, not God. [1]

Sure, He gives everyone the free will to do what they want, but before you say he shouldn't, what if you had no choice but to go to church every day, to pray all the time, and to love God so much you'd be ready to take a bullet if you needed to spread his word or defend it. You don't like the sound of that do you? [2]

[1]: We already know god is all powerful. If he wanted to stop it he could. He didn't, so he wanted it to happen for some reason.

[2]: No, I don't liket the sound of that (Mainly because I actualy have a free will and mind), but appearently completel loyal and blind faith is what god wants, so he might as well program us to do what you just said without an urge to stop doing so.


Well, I can't understand everything either, but part of this you understand using your faith, the faith that you trust a God that knows what's best for you and the hope you have that one day everyone will know the truth.


Jesus died for our sins, so now we can have a close relationship with God, based on faith and trust. But the sins the Jews committed were done before Jesus even existed, so it doesn't apply the same way. [3]



Like I said, they knew what was going to happen before they disobeyed God. You think God felt some kind of pleasure watching his own people being gassed in chambers and treated like animals? I'm sure he didn't, but it had to be done, because God keeps his promises.

[3]: Then it applies to nothing. If sins commited before jesus existed can't be ruled out by jesus's death, then all heriditary sins you talked about before would still exist.....

[Living For Love]

Then it applies to nothing. If sins commited before jesus existed can't be ruled out by jesus's death, then all heriditary sins you talked about before would still exist.
In the Old Testament, before Jesus' death, people would have their sins forgiven using animal sacrifices. Today, we don't need animal sacrifices no more, because the ultimate sacrifice is already done (Jesus' death). However, sin is something that still belongs to our nature, not because our fathers or grandfathers sinned, but because sin was introduced in our nature when Adam and Eve sinned. So, how can we get rid of this sin nature that still lies within us? The answer is believing in Jesus and accept him as our saviour.

Now, you may ask, why were the Jews different? Because when they sinned, God told them, right in that moment, that all of their future generations would suffer, not because sin is hereditary (that's something that happens nonetheless), but because God told them so. And you're forgetting another thing: Jews don't believe in Jesus' authority, so they couldn't even say "Why are we being punished if Jesus supposedly died for our sins?" For them, Jesus was only a normal man like you and me, not the son of God or someone with divine powers.

[Miserabilia]

In the Old Testament, before Jesus' death, people would have their sins forgiven using animal sacrifices. Today, we don't need animal sacrifices no more, because the ultimate sacrifice is already done (Jesus' death). However, sin is something that still belongs to our nature, not because our fathers or grandfathers sinned, but because sin was introduced in our nature when Adam and Eve sinned. So, how can we get rid of this sin nature that still lies within us? The answer is believing in Jesus and accept him as our saviour.

Now, you may ask, why were the Jews different? Because when they sinned, God told them, right in that moment, that all of their future generations would suffer, not because sin is hereditary (that's something that happens nonetheless), but because God told them so. And you're forgetting another thing: Jews don't believe in Jesus' authority, so they couldn't even say "Why are we being punished if Jesus supposedly died for our sins?" For them, Jesus was only a normal man like you and me, not the son of God or someone with divine powers.

In the Old Testament, before Jesus' death, people would have their sins forgiven using animal sacrifices. Today, we don't need animal sacrifices no more, because the ultimate sacrifice is already done (Jesus' death).

Except for the jews (appearently).
And all the starving children. And dying of aids.

However, sin is something that still belongs to our nature, not because our fathers or grandfathers sinned, but because sin was introduced in our nature when Adam and Eve sinned. So, how can we get rid of this sin nature that still lies within us? The answer is believing in Jesus and accept him as our saviour.

I don't accept jesus and I sin all the time,
but I haven't been invollved in any gnocide I know of.
See how the logic is flawed?
It's just off.

Now, you may ask, why were the Jews different? Because when they sinned, God told them, right in that moment, that all of their future generations would suffer, not because sin is hereditary (that's something that happens nonetheless), but because God told them so. And you're forgetting another thing: Jews don't believe in Jesus' authority, so they couldn't even say "Why are we being punished if Jesus supposedly died for our sins?" For them, Jesus was only a normal man like you and me, not the son of God or someone with divine powers.

Then again I ask; why aren't all atheists involved in genocide? They don't accept jesus either.

[Living For Love]

I don't accept jesus and I sin all the time,
but I haven't been invollved in any gnocide I know of.
See how the logic is flawed?
It's just off.

Then again I ask; why aren't all atheists involved in genocide? They don't accept jesus either.

Because God still wants to save you and all other atheists. God could just kill everyone and the problem would be solved, but he doesn't want that. He wants everyone to be saved, otherwise the death of his son, and all his suffering, would have been in vain.

[Sir Suomi]

Because God still wants to save you and all other atheists. God could just kill everyone and the problem would be solved, but he doesn't want that. He wants everyone to be saved, otherwise the death of his son, and all his suffering, would have been in vain.

Or it could be that he just plain out doesn't exist, and you're wasting your time, energy, and muffins talking to an imaginary friend.

[Living For Love]

Or it could be that he just plain out doesn't exist, and you're wasting your time, energy, and muffins talking to an imaginary friend.

If that's what you think, who the hell am I to tell you otherwise? I believe in God, I have my reasons, you don't believe in God, you have your reasons as well, so it's cool.

[Sir Suomi]

If that's what you think, who the hell am I to tell you otherwise? I believe in God, I have my reasons, you don't believe in God, you have your reasons as well, so it's cool.

It's exactly what I think. But hey, you want to keep holding on to a primitive means of comprehending the world around us, that's cool too. Just stay away from my government, my children, and my education system, and we're good.

[Living For Love]

It's exactly what I think. But hey, you want to keep holding on to a primitive means of comprehending the world around us, that's cool too. Just stay away from my government, my children, and my education system, and we're good.

And why would I want to be near you, your children, your government and your education system in first place? But I wish the same to you as well.

[Sir Suomi]

And why would I want to be near you, your children, your government and your education system in first place? But I wish the same to you as well.

I was referring to your religion.