NSA spying and Edward Snowden

[Gamma Male]

So, what do you guys think about all this spying bullshit?

[Cygnus]

It's a really delicate subject, given that all countries probably do that, not only the US with their NSA, Snowden did what is morally correct, but to be honest you can't be a powerful country and not spy in this world filled with self-interest and greed, so I'll remain neutral towards the subject. The US is not the only place that does that, my home country most obviously does, and Mexico basically admitted that they do.

[tovaris]

FREDOM OF COMUNICATION!
FREDOM OF EXPRESING ONES OPINION, EVEN IFthat opinion is lets kill the old inconpetant guy in charge...

[sqishy]

NSA are douchebags for what they already do: spy on everyone with Big Brother

[Harry Smith]

Even though I think it's wrong, and hence I voted that way we shouldn't be surprised that our governments spy upon us-it's been happening for the last 200 years, so I'm always a bit surprised when people jump up in disbelief that the National Security Agency is spying

[Cpt_Cutter]

I'd like to point out that thanks to Americas "We're the only nation on earth that matters" attitude they spied on 10 x as many people outside of america than they did in america.

[phuckphace]

the NSA shouldn't even exist anyway. the only reason it does is thanks to filthy neocons who have one hand on the big red button and the other in their pants at all times.

[Vlerchan]

.... so I'm always a bit surprised when people jump up in disbelief that the National Security Agency is spying
This.

It really shouldn't come as all that much of a surprise.

[Miserabilia]

Well the way the question is asked, the obvious answer is no.

[phuckphace]

Well the way the question is asked, the obvious answer is no.

I was considering voting yes just to be "that guy" but thought better of it :D

[Capto]

Voted yes. Don't care.

[Horatio Nelson]

Even though I think it's wrong, and hence I voted that way we shouldn't be surprised that our governments spy upon us-it's been happening for the last 200 years, so I'm always a bit surprised when people jump up in disbelief that the National Security Agency is spying

Yup, it's the truth.

[ImCoolBeans]

It kind of goes without saying that it's morally wrong, well, wrong on every level. But like Harry said, it's been going on for a very, very long time and does not surprise me at all; especially in a government the size of the U.S. government.

[Miserabilia]

I was considering voting yes just to be "that guy" but thought better of it :D

haha :lol:

[TheBigUnit]

It's a really delicate subject, given that all countries probably do that, not only the US with their NSA, Snowden did what is morally correct, but to be honest you can't be a powerful country and not spy in this world filled with self-interest and greed, so I'll remain neutral towards the subject. The US is not the only place that does that, my home country most obviously does, and Mexico basically admitted that they do.

this basically, dont forget the Russians and the Chinese both do it too, and more enforced than the United States,

Theres really nothing you can do except enforce strict laws against it, im neutral on this topic because a lot the people raising commotion are like the group of womens rights people who are against women's "suffrage"

Though Snowden did what was morally right i still think he deserves to be punished for what he did

[Gamma Male]

Though Snowden did what was morally right i still think he deserves to be punished for what he did

What?

[Capto]

What?

He challenged authorities.

[bob97]

It's a really delicate subject, given that all countries probably do that, not only the US with their NSA, Snowden did what is morally correct, but to be honest you can't be a powerful country and not spy in this world filled with self-interest and greed, so I'll remain neutral towards the subject. The US is not the only place that does that, my home country most obviously does, and Mexico basically admitted that they do.

Just because everyone does it doesn't mean its ok. And isn't the US supposed to be better than everyone else? Snowden is my hero

[Gamma Male]

He challenged authorities.

Yeah? So? That doesn't mean he deserves to be punished. If anything, he deserves a fucking parade.

[Capto]

Yeah? So? That doesn't mean he deserves to be punished. If anything, he deserves a fucking parade.

Sure thing kid.

[Typhlosion]

Unless you have you have something to hide, I don't see this being bad at all. Sure, someone is reading your data. Who? Most likely someone you never know. Think of the NSA as a machine. A machine that crunches data and tries to enforce laws.

I knew of spying way before this whole NSA scandal. I accessed some site with content legal in the US and in the host country but illegal in Brazil. Cops called and sent a mail warning to stay wary of our internet usage.

It won't prevent big cartels or attacks (deep web) but it can sort out minor cases. I don't see what's wrong for someone to keep logging my data if they don't know who I am beyond an IP and/or name in a catalog.

Plus, doesn't VT archive PMs and Chatroom to possibly be read by a mod? For the good-being of VT and a nation.

[TheBigUnit]

What?

He has no integrity with what he did

[ImCoolBeans]

Either way, it's not going to stop. Whether they say it's stopping or not. Remember, before Snowden came public, the NSA "didn't do any of that."

[Gamma Male]

He has no integrity with what he did

Why's that?

[variantwarrior]

Though Snowden did what was morally right i still think he deserves to be punished for what he did

He challenged authorities.

I'd like to point out that without acts of rebellion: 1)America would still be a British Colony [no Revolution] 2)Britain would still be under the absolute rule of a monarch [no Magna Carta] Challenging authority is how society progresses.

[Vlerchan]

I'd like to point out that without acts of rebellion: 1)America would still be a British Colony [no Revolution][1] 2)Britain would still be under the absolute rule of a monarch [no Magna Carta][2] Challenging authority is how society progresses.[3]

[1]: I'm highly doubtful that the US would still be a colony.

[2]: Would you mind expanding on this?: My knowledge of British history is somewhat hazy.

[3]: I do totally agree with this though.

[variantwarrior]

[1]: I'm highly doubtful that the US would still be a colony.

[2]: Would you mind expanding on this?: My knowledge of British history is somewhat hazy.

[3]: I do totally agree with this though.

1:The US would have to rebel to become independent. Our territory was and is rich with resources, and Britain wouldn't let us go without a fight.

2:Read this (http://www.history.com/topics/british-history/magna-carta). Basically, a group of nobles forced the king to sign a document which limited his power.

3:Thank you.

[Harry Smith]

I'd like to point out that without acts of rebellion: 1)America would still be a British Colony [no Revolution] 2)Britain would still be under the absolute rule of a monarch [no Magna Carta] Challenging authority is how society progresses.

The Manga carta was in like 1215-500 years before your revolutionary war. I'm sick of Americans thinking that by winning in 1780 they somehow stopped George III and made us into a liberal democracy because as always it's simply a myth created by the US. The mad king had very little to do with the war, and even afterwards Parliament was still weak-it wasn't until 1832 that some change happened.

Fuck all to do with a couple of farmers

1:The US would have to rebel to become independent. Our territory was and is rich with resources, and Britain wouldn't let us go without a fight.

2:Read this (http://www.history.com/topics/british-history/magna-carta). Basically, a group of nobles forced the king to sign a document which limited his power.

3:Thank you.

You need to learn your history-the Magna Carta was 500 years before-

[variantwarrior]

I never said our revolution changed your country. I know that the Magna Carta was long before the American Revolution. But making the king sign it was still an act of rebellion.

[Vlerchan]

1:The US would have to rebel to become independent. Our territory was and is rich with resources, and Britain wouldn't let us go without a fight.

2:Read this (http://www.history.com/topics/british-history/magna-carta). Basically, a group of nobles forced the king to sign a document which limited his power.

3:Thank you.
[1]: That's the same with a number of other ex-British colonies. I'm perfectly supportive of the American's rebelling against the British, but that doesn't mean I don't believe a time in history wouldn't have come when democratic succession became a possibility.

[2]: Oh. Right. I read your second point as a lead-on of the first: that's what got me wondering. My mistake.

[Harry Smith]

I never said our revolution changed your country. I know that the Magna Carta was long before the American Revolution. But making the king sign it was still an act of rebellion.

Yes you did-you said it changed us from an Absolute monarchy however we hadn't been that since 1640 when he killed our King and gave parliament more power

[variantwarrior]

Yes you did-you said it changed us from an Absolute monarchy however we hadn't been that since 1640 when he killed our King and gave parliament more power

Didn't know that part, and I have to defer to the British about their own history. Still, I said the Magna Carta changed Britain from an absolute monarchy, not the Revolution. But it doesn't matter if the change came with the Magna Carta of the death of a king. Either way, Britain's transition from an absolute to a limited monarchy was an act of rebellion. My point stands.

[Harry Smith]

Didn't know that part, and I have to defer to the British about their own history. Still, I said the Magna Carta changed Britain from an absolute monarchy, not the Revolution. But it doesn't matter if the change came with the Magna Carta of the death of a king. Either way, Britain's transition from an absolute to a limited monarchy was an act of rebellion. My point stands.

Wasn't a rebellion in such-more evolution over about 700 years. We had periods where we rose up but then often we'd invite the King back after a couple of years of chaos

[variantwarrior]

Wasn't a rebellion in such-more evolution over about 700 years. We had periods where we rose up but then often we'd invite the King back after a couple of years of chaos

I apologize for my misinterpretation of British history, then. In school, I was taught that the Magna Carta caused the switch (albeit from an American textbook) and was simply referencing that.

[Capto]

I'd like to point out that without acts of rebellion: 1)America would still be a British Colony [no Revolution] 2)Britain would still be under the absolute rule of a monarch [no Magna Carta] Challenging authority is how society progresses.

Don't care. Still challenging authority.

[Gamma Male]

Don't care. Still challenging authority.

Why is challenging authority always bad?

[Plasma]

If people didn't have something to hide, they wouldn't worry about what the NSA does. They're not there to see what kind of porn you watch, or what kind of sick stuff you look up. They're there to defend from another fucking 9/11 attack. Seriously. It would be idiotic to NOT have someone watching out for that.

[Gamma Male]

If people didn't have something to hide, they wouldn't worry about what the NSA does. They're not there to see what kind of porn you watch, or what kind of sick stuff you look up. They're there to defend from another fucking 9/11 attack. Seriously. It would be idiotic to NOT have someone watching out for that.

It's an invasion of privacy. I don't want them seeing what porn I watch, or what stuff I look up, or what I email or text other people. It violates the 5th amendment.

[Plasma]

It's an invasion of privacy. I don't want them seeing what porn I watch, or what stuff I look up, or what I email or text other people. It violates the 5th amendment.

I'm pretty sure the second you put something on the internet, it no longer becomes private and you know that as well as I do.

[Gamma Male]

I'm pretty sure the second you put something on the internet, it no longer becomes private and you know that as well as I do.

Emails, phone calls, and text messages should be private.

[Plasma]

Emails, phone calls, and text messages should be private.

Aren't me talking legality and not morality right now?

[Gamma Male]

Aren't me talking legality and not morality right now?

Both.

[TheBigUnit]

Why's that?

He earned all the clearances with his job, thats why he should be in trouble even though it may be the "right thing" to do

[Gamma Male]

He earned all the clearances with his job, thats why he should be in trouble even though it may be the "right thing" to do

So he did the right thing, but he should still be punished? That's stupid.

[TheBigUnit]

So he did the right thing, but he should still be punished? That's stupid.

It's all relative, some may argue that the Rosenbergs were heroes for transmitting nuclear information out while others say what they did is punishable, same thing with with Mr. Snowden

[Gamma Male]

It's all relative, some may argue that the Rosenbergs were heroes for transmitting nuclear information out while others say what they did is punishable, same thing with with Mr. Snowden

Yeah? And I'm saying he did the right thing. The American government, and especially the NSA and CIA, is one of the most corrupt oligarchies in history. But the masses are so brainwashed they don't even realize it. If American politicians were held to the same standards as the Nazis were in the Nuremberg trials every president since Truman would be executed. The NSA spying is just the tip of the ice berg. Snowden did a great thing, but his effort was in vain. The American people are too fucking busy squabling over Kim Kardashian's ass and all that other bullshit on TV to wake up and see that the American government is killing thousands of innocent people every year.

The occupy protesters had the right idea, they were just pussies.

[Vlerchan]

... some may argue that the Rosenbergs were heroes for transmitting nuclear information out while others say what they did is punishable, same thing with with Mr. Snowden
But on what grounds do people consider Snowden's dissent a bad thing?

Unless you're going to argue that dissent is inherently bad.

The occupy protesters had the right idea, they were just pussies.
It was a lot more to do with them being incredibly unsure of what they actually wanted.

[Harry Smith]

Yeah? And I'm saying he did the right thing. The American government, and especially the NSA and CIA, is one of the most corrupt oligarchies in history. But the masses are so brainwashed they don't even realize it. If American politicians were held to the same standards as the Nazis were in the Nuremberg trials every president since Truman would be executed. The NSA spying is just the tip of the ice berg. Snowden did a great thing, but his effort was in vain. The American people are too fucking busy squabling over Kim Kardashian's ass and all that other bullshit on TV to wake up and see that the American government is killing thousands of innocent people every year.

The occupy protesters had the right idea, they were just pussies.

In all fairness the point about the Presidents just shows how bad the Nuremberg trials were. and the weakness of the ruling.

I'd happily admit that the majority of the stuff that the CIA do is horrible, but you need someone to do.

[phuckphace]

It was a lot more to do with them being incredibly unsure of what they actually wanted.

I think OWS consisted mostly of butthurt college kids who stupidly took out $100,000 in loans for a degree in Transgender Womyn of History Studies and then realized it wasn't going to get them an actual job so they were bawling for handouts. OWS could have been opportunity for everyone regardless of class to protest the rampant corruption of Wall Street, but it failed because the shrillest and most ridiculous Marxists were allowed to set the tone of the protest as a whole. the media focused on the dirtiest hippies to dissuade less radical, blue-collar citizens from joining in as well.

there are 1000 things wrong with the education system in the US, but what a completely wasted opportunity for actual change.

[TheBigUnit]

Snowden did a great thing, but his effort was in vain. The American people are too fucking busy squabling over Kim Kardashian's ass and all that other bullshit on TV to wake up and see that the American government is killing thousands of innocent people every year.

The occupy protesters had the right idea, they were just pussies.


Honestly the American people have it amazing, after a trip out of the country...to modernized western europe... i can honestly say that, which is a reason why the occupy protests didnt really last long because really what do we have to complain about? this country is good at pleasing the masses because

American culture is super affluent across the globe which is a reason why we dont notice the boring politicians, We really kinda are just like the people of ancient rome, the turnout of the games mean more than the gambits of the government


But on what grounds do people consider Snowden's dissent a bad thing?

Unless you're going to argue that dissent is inherently bad.

Snowden is only guilty on the fact that he ruined the trust the gov had on him, he broke the rules in giving out unauthorized info, but thats it, what he did was more of a wakeup call, snowden probably has much much more knowledge of deepere american secrets than just the gov spying on us,

the us isnt the only country that spies on its own citizens by the way

[Microcosm]

I think it is part of the government's duty to know and understand their people, but I am not sure this is the right way to do it. It feels deceptive.

[Gamma Male]

Honestly the American people have it amazing, after a trip out of the country...to modernized western europe... i can honestly say that, which is a reason why the occupy protests didnt really last long because really what do we have to complain about? this country is good at pleasing the masses because

American culture is super affluent across the globe which is a reason why we dont notice the boring politicians, We really kinda are just like the people of ancient rome, the turnout of the games mean more than the gambits of the government



Snowden is only guilty on the fact that he ruined the trust the gov had on him, he broke the rules in giving out unauthorized info, but thats it, what he did was more of a wakeup call, snowden probably has much much more knowledge of deepere american secrets than just the gov spying on us,

the us isnt the only country that spies on its own citizens by the way


Oh don't get me wrong, I realize that Americans have an excellent quality of life compared to a lot of other people. My complaint is with all the innocent people who've been killed by our imperialist military. I could easily list off dozens of incidents.

Iran Contra
Guantanamo Bay
Drone Strikes
Vietnam
Monsanto. Monsanto is an excellent example if the rich and the elite going above the law to get what they want. Honestly, for all the shit they've done their CEO'S deserve to be executed. I wonder just how many small brown children have been poisoned to death in South America by toxic fertilizer. You know they use slave labor right?
I could go on and on. The amount of power the elite have over our military and our media is ridiculous. The politicians use relatively unimportant social issues to distract us from the fact that when it comes to the issues that are actually important, they're all the same?

[TheBigUnit]

Oh don't get me wrong, I realize that Americans have an excellent quality of life compared to a lot of other people. My complaint is with all the innocent people who've been killed by our imperialist military. I could easily list off dozens of incidents.

Iran Contra
Guantanamo Bay
Drone Strikes
Vietnam
Monsanto. Monsanto is an excellent example if the rich and the elite going above the law to get what they want. Honestly, for all the shit they've done their CEO'S deserve to be executed. I wonder just how many small brown children have been poisoned to death in South America by toxic fertilizer. You know they use slave labor right?
I could go on and on. The amount of power the elite have over our military and our media is ridiculous. The politicians use relatively unimportant social issues to distract us from the fact that when it comes to the issues that are actually important, they're all the same?


Almost any nation that ever had military superiority had their own issues this includes basically every country like the UK France Portugal Russia China Iran even Mongolia Brazil etc

Monsanto is an entirely different topic that I wish our nation had the balls to protest but don't, aren't they banned in the EU or something?

[Harry Smith]

To be honest, the biggest problem in the US isn't the outwards facing foreign policy-but the fact that the Republican party seem so driven on a path of Foreign intervention, the democrats are only slightly better in this sense but America as TheBigUnit says realizes that it can throw it's weight around

[KieranRules]

The problem is the American politician, not intending to offend any American people here but the terror alert is ridiculously high. Yes I know about 9/11 but that was over 10 years ago. American politicians also have a thing about the Russians and 'how evil they are'. All I'm saying is that the politicians of America need to trust in people a lot more and lower the terror alert. In Britain, the Government only look through your cookies and history if you have a criminal record or have been suspected of cyber crime but not prosecuted. I wish America was more like the UK, Europe, Australia etc. even though I don't live there because our Governments are so much more trusting in the people making us, in a sense, more free.

I hope it all works out for you guys! :)

[plebble]

They're not allowed, they're breaking the law. But they are the government so they think they're above the law.