Should the pledge of alligiance be mandatory in public schools?

[Gamma Male]

As far as I know, the pledge of allegiance is a strictly American phenomenon. It's basically a pseudopatriotic chant in which you swear fealty to the American government. Everyday most public school children stand up, put their hands on their hearts, and follow the chant...ahem, "pledge" over the loudspeakers. It goes as follows.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Even though the supreme court has ruled that forcing a child to say the pledge is unconstitutional, children who refuse are oftentimes illegally punished and ridiculed by teachers anyway. Most of the children are too young to even understand what it means to pledge your allegiance to something.

Personally, I consider it to be a form of child brainwashing with the intent to pass off blind obedience and conformity as desirable, patriotic qualities when in fact the opposite is true.

[Camazotz]

As far as I know, the pledge of allegiance is a strictly American phenomenon. It's basically a pseudopatriotic chant in which you swear fealty to the American government. Everyday most public school children stand up, put their hands on their hearts, and follow the chant...ahem, "pledge" over the loudspeakers. It goes as follows.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Even though the supreme court has ruled that forcing a child to say the pledge is unconstitutional, children who refuse are oftentimes illegally punished and ridiculed by teachers anyway. Most of the children are too young to even understand what it means to pledge your allegiance to something.

Personally, I consider it to be a form of child brainwashing with the intent to pass off blind obedience and conformity as desirable, patriotic qualities when in fact the opposite is true.

Completely agree with everything you said. Just thought I should add a personal anecdote:

During the NJASK (standardized testing for the state of New Jersey), we had about 80 or so classmates in the cafeteria taking the test at the same time. Pledge came on over the PA system, and two guys were sitting down. A teacher sees them and yells "HEY! STAND UP!" and runs over to them. One stood up because he didn't want to deal with the consequences, the other stayed sitting down. It was a big commotion in the moment, she and some teachers in the room were yelling at him and complaining and just publicly shaming him. He had to go to the principal's later in the day, and he told the guy that even though it's a law in the state of New Jersey to stand (I looked it up later, I believe it still is) that he didn't have to stand as long as it didn't cause any more disturbances. Some friends and I wrote to the governor about having that amended, but nothing ever came of it.

[Gamma Male]

Completely agree with everything you said. Just thought I should add a personal anecdote:

During the NJASK (standardized testing for the state of New Jersey), we had about 80 or so classmates in the cafeteria taking the test at the same time. Pledge came on over the PA system, and two guys were sitting down. A teacher sees them and yells "HEY! STAND UP!" and runs over to them. One stood up because he didn't want to deal with the consequences, the other stayed sitting down. It was a big commotion in the moment, she and some teachers in the room were yelling at him and complaining and just publicly shaming him. He had to go to the principal's later in the day, and he told the guy that even though it's a law in the state of New Jersey to stand (I looked it up later, I believe it still is) that he didn't have to stand as long as it didn't cause any more disturbances. Some friends and I wrote to the governor about having that amended, but nothing ever came of it.

You should've contacted the ACLU. They would've cared way more than the governor. :lol:

[Horatio Nelson]

I selected mandatory. But now that I think of it. No. It shouldn't be. Disestablishmentarianism for the win!

[Miserabilia]

I've always thought it's completely ridiculous,
having little kids chant this thing and "under god".
It's this non existing american unity;
the USA is not united at all.
In fact, american politics always seem to tend to divide into two opposite chunks.
And one nation?
Pff, a nation is a people living within borders,
but let's just forget about native americans riiight?
But well let's just make sure everyone keeps saying their little pledge so they are all united under it, even when they are completely different.
Oh also let's sneek "under god" in there, because youknow how american politics rely compltely on christianity.

[Gamma Male]

I've always thought it's completely ridiculous,
having little kids chant this thing and "under god".
It's this non existing american unity;
the USA is not united at all.
In fact, american politics always seem to tend to divide into two opposite chunks.
And one nation?
Pff, a nation is a people living within borders,
but let's just forget about native americans riiight?
But well let's just make sure everyone keeps saying their little pledge so they are all united under it, even when they are completely different.
Oh also let's sneek "under god" in there, because youknow how american politics rely compltely on christianity.
Yeah, the under God part wasn't even in there until the cold war, when it was added to distinguish Murica from dem atheist commies.

[CharlieHorse]

Without Same-sex Marriage, there is NO "liberty and justice for all"

Until then, I will never say that fucking pledge again.

Even then, it is brainwashing, and sounds like something that would come out of Nazi Germany.
The god part should also be removed, as the country recognizes freedom of belief, and does not impose a national religion.

All in all, the pledge is pretty fucked up.

As a kid, I was required to say it in school, until I realized how wrong it was and stopped.

[Miserabilia]

Yeah, the under God part wasn't even in there until the cold war, when it was added to distinguish Murica from dem atheist commies.

Not to mention atheists are still almost a tabboo in american politics; I'm so glad to be an atheist outside of america, just because I know the way non christians are treated there.
There are basicly NO atheists in american politics, and if they are , it's treated like they've commited a crime.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/south-carolina-state-senator-asked-governor-whether-appointe

[CharlieHorse]

Not to mention atheists are still almost a tabboo in american politics; I'm so glad to be an atheist outside of america, just because I know the way non christians are treated there.
There are basicly NO atheists in american politics, and if they are , it's treated like they've commited a crime.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/south-carolina-state-senator-asked-governor-whether-appointe

Atheism is becoming pretty common in areas of the US. The bay area for example, where Apple, Google, Facebook, Stanford, sciencey things and this and that technology are, religion is the minority. Or at least it seems.

[Stronk Serb]

Why does this resemble Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy or the USSR? In Germany you had to swear fealty to the Führer, in Italy to il Duce, in the USSR to the Communist Party. In the US it's similar. You declare for the government and God. I think the American pledge sounds more fucked up. You pledge yourself to someone who's existence hasn't been verified.

[CassnovA]

i voted yes cos i thought it was a 1 time thing. if its daily then f- no way.

[sqishy]

I was going to say no -_- undecided I seem to be..

[Camazotz]

Why does this resemble Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy or the USSR? In Germany you had to swear fealty to the Führer, in Italy to il Duce, in the USSR to the Communist Party. In the US it's similar. You declare for the government and God. I think the American pledge sounds more fucked up. You pledge yourself to someone who's existence hasn't been verified.

You're not pledging your allegiance to God, you're pledging your allegiance to the American government and its ideals (civil liberties for most).

[backjruton]

It sounds stupid and if they did inforce this I would have more reason to be glad I'm British and Not American :lol: so "No" as I think nothing should be mandatory :cool::rolleyes: (at all.)

[Miserabilia]

Atheism is becoming pretty common in areas of the US. The bay area for example, where Apple, Google, Facebook, Stanford, sciencey things and this and that technology are, religion is the minority. Or at least it seems.

In the general population; yes.
But not in politics. I beleive that in the entire senate for example there is only a single open atheist.

You're not pledging your allegiance to God, you're pledging your allegiance to the American government and its ideals (civil liberties for most).

The american goverment and it's ideals are according to the pledge (as part of the nation), under god.
Indirectly you could say you are made to pledge your alliegence to god.

[DerBear]

Not really, just a bunch of words.

[Horatio Nelson]

because youknow how american politics rely compltely on christianity.

That's an untrue statement IMO. There is barely any Christianity in American politics, there is only one professing Christian politician I know of. Just because people don't say they are atheist, doesn't automatically make them a Christian. Besides, in nation under "god", it doesn't say one nation under Jesus.

[Miserabilia]

That's an untrue statement IMO. There is barely any Christianity in American politics, there is only one professing Christian politician I know of. Just because people don't say they are atheist, doesn't automatically make them a Christian. Besides, in nation under "god", it doesn't say one nation under Jesus.

You're kidding right. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_affiliation_in_the_United_States_Senate)

[Camazotz]

The american goverment and it's ideals are according to the pledge (as part of the nation), under god.
Indirectly you could say you are made to pledge your alliegence to god.

Only since 1954. The United States is a secular nation. Since the original Pledge did not include "under God," I would argue that the true intent has absolutely nothing to do with God or Christian values, just appreciation and responsibility to protect civil liberties. Society and culture warped this into theological beliefs and try to paint the Founding Fathers as good Christians, when in reality, they were political philosophers that believed in equality (for the most part).

There is no allegiance to God by saying the Pledge of Allegiance, but a lot of people might argue that it is.

[Miserabilia]

Only since 1954. The United States is a secular nation. Since the original Pledge did not include "under God," I would argue that the true intent has absolutely nothing to do with God or Christian values, just appreciation and responsibility to protect civil liberties. Society and culture warped this into theological beliefs and try to paint the Founding Fathers as good Christians, when in reality, they were political philosophers that believed in equality (for the most part).

There is no allegiance to God by saying the Pledge of Allegiance, but a lot of people might argue that it is.

Only since 1954.

Yes I know.

Society and culture warped this into theological beliefs and try to paint the Founding Fathers as good Christians, when in reality, they were political philosophers that believed in equality (for the most part).

ikr ikr ikr I aggree etc etc
:P

There is no allegiance to God by saying the Pledge of Allegiance, but a lot of people might argue that it is.
I personaly don't beleive that it's an allegiance to god,
but I just defended that it can definetly be interpertated that way.

[Horatio Nelson]

You're kidding right. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_affiliation_in_the_United_States_Senate)

Just because they are affiliated with a religion, doesn't mean they are working to spread their beliefs.

[Miserabilia]

Just because they are affiliated with a religion, doesn't mean they are working to spread their beliefs.

So? Did I say they are?
No, so I don't know what your post is about,
but my point was that christians and religious people are just very present in american politics, while atheists are treated like people that aren't fit to run anything.
(Because they have no morals, right?)

[Cygnus]

So? Did I say they are?
No, so I don't know what your post is about,
but my point was that christians and religious people are just very present in american politics, while atheists are treated like people that aren't fit to run anything.
(Because they have no morals, right?)

You are diverging this topic to something else completely unrelated, so please get back on topic.

On another note, I wouldn't like to pledge allegiance to my homeland's government or to the government of the country I currently live in, so I'd say it shouldn't be mandatory at all, it's a step towards internationalization.

[tovaris]

definetly not, you guis are on the age ofdictatorship as it is this would only bring you even closer
not toeven touch that itis discriminatory and biast towards those of noncristian fate

[Stronk Serb]

You're not pledging your allegiance to God, you're pledging your allegiance to the American government and its ideals (civil liberties for most).

You pledge yourself under God meaning indirectly pledge yourself to God. Even if you removed the God part, it would be fucked up to make little kids or anyone else for that matter say the pledge of allegiance in school. Here people do it only when they join the army. It's kinda like an oath.

[Abyssal Echo]

The Pledge of Allegiance is to the country not God or the government.
should you be forced to say it No I don't think so. The easiest thing to do is just stand there and not say anything.

[bob97]

I live in the US and I find it extremely creepy. I dont do it and almost nobody else in my high school do either. I don't need to pledge my allegiance. And the whole god thing is silly. Take it out. Just have a pause for the people who still want to say it

[StoppingTime]

Pff, a nation is a people living within borders,


A nation is absolutely not just people living within borders. A nation is a group of people (not always in the same place, in fact) who feel united with one another as a result of the same history, culture, observances, languages, etc.

What you're describing is a state - a specific area designated by some sort of ruling body that doesn't have to obey nationalistic ideals (see Rwanda, the rest of Africa during independence movements, etc).

I know that's a bit off topic, but the distinction is quite important.
_________________
As for the pledge, at least in my high school in the US, it's not mandated at all. You're not ridiculed for not saying it (or even for not standing), so it's never been a big deal for me personally to just stand and not say anything

[Southside]

Im religious(Christian) but I don't ever say the Pledge of Allegiance, I cant pledge to a country who's foreign policy has killed thousands of innocent civilians.

[Miserabilia]

A nation is absolutely not just people living within borders. A nation is a group of people (not always in the same place, in fact) who feel united with one another as a result of the same history, culture, observances, languages, etc.

What you're describing is a state - a specific area designated by some sort of ruling body that doesn't have to obey nationalistic ideals (see Rwanda, the rest of Africa during independence movements, etc).

I know that's a bit off topic, but the distinction is quite important.
_________________
As for the pledge, at least in my high school in the US, it's not mandated at all. You're not ridiculed for not saying it (or even for not standing), so it's never been a big deal for me personally to just stand and not say anything

noun

A large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

[StoppingTime]

noun

A large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

What about those who share a common history/language/etc who are unwillingly separated by political borders, for example?

[Miserabilia]

What about those who share a common history/language/etc who are unwillingly separated by political borders, for example?

They are a people but not a nation, untill they achieve some sort of border or territory of themselves, or atleast reside in a single territory even if it's not theirs.

[Vlerchan]

They are a people but not a nation, untill they achieve some sort of border or territory of themselves, or atleast reside in a single territory even if it's not theirs.
So, if I move to America I'm no longer Irish.

What am I then?

[Miserabilia]

So, if I move to America I'm no longer Irish.

What am I then?

No, that's not at all what I meant with what I said or what the definition of nation means.

[Vlerchan]

No, that's not at all what I meant with what I said or what the definition of nation means.
I live in the Irish state. I share a common culture, etc. with others within the Irish state. I am thus a member of the Irish 'nation' and so: Irish. This all comes from your definition.

If I leave then am I no longer Irish since I am no longer fulfilling the 'live in the Irish state' pre-condition?

[Miserabilia]

I live in the Irish state. I share a common culture, etc. with others within the Irish state. I am thus a member of the Irish 'nation' and so: Irish. This all comes from your definition.

If I leave then am I no longer Irish since I am no longer fulfilling the 'live in the Irish state' pre-condition?

The nation is a people living within a state.
The irish people still live within the irish state, and are therefore still a nation.
You are however not part of the irish nation if you live in another country, just a part of the people.

[Emerald Dream]

The nation is a people living within a state.
The irish people still live within the irish state, and are therefore still a nation.
You are however not part of the irish nation if you live in another country, just a part of the people.

No, he is no longer in the country of Ireland.

He is still part of the Irish nation.

There's a big difference between the words "country" and "nation." You can also go ahead and try to dictionary definition this, but if I know what he meant then you probably do too. You're making a non-argument into a weak point here.

[Vlerchan]

The nation is a people living within a state.
No. This a citizenry.

I wouldn't consider ethnic-poles people living within Ireland to be members of the Irish nation regardless of whether they hold citizenship in Ireland or not.

The irish people still live within the irish state, and are therefore still a nation.
Would you mind repeating this sentence using different words? It makes no sense to me.

You are however not part of the irish nation if you live in another country, just a part of the people.
I'd personally consider 'people' and 'nation' to mean the same thing in this context.

This does mean I disagree with your dictionary definition because it gives a definition that differs from the historical usage of the word 'nation'.

[Miserabilia]

No, he is no longer in the country of Ireland.

He is still part of the Irish nation.

There's a big difference between the words "country" and "nation." You can also go ahead and try to dictionary definition this, but if I know what he meant then you probably do too. You're making a non-argument into a weak point here.

If an irish family lives in canada are they part of the irish nation?
Maybe my definition of nation is diferent than yours but for me this would seem no since the country is a part of the nation.


No. This a citizenry.

I wouldn't consider ethnic-poles people living within Ireland to be members of the Irish nation regardless of whether they hold citizenship in Ireland or not.


Would you mind repeating this sentence using different words? It makes no sense to me.


I'd personally consider 'people' and 'nation' to mean the same thing in this context.

This does mean I disagree with your dictionary definition because it gives a definition that differs from the historical usage of the word 'nation'.

No. This a citizenry.

I've never heard of the word but all I could find when I looked it up was something like a collection of citizens, or citisens collectively.
Ofcourse when I said "a people" I'm not being really accurate just lazy,
what I should have said according to the dictionairy definition of nation is
"A large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language".

I wouldn't consider ethnic-poles people living within Ireland to be members of the Irish nation regardless of whether they hold citizenship in Ireland or not.

I wouldn't either; they don't share common descent history culture and language, they are part of a diferent people.

Would you mind repeating this sentence using different words? It makes no sense to me.

I'd personally consider 'people' and 'nation' to mean the same thing in this context.

They aren't; a people without their own territory is not a nation.
A people of nomads would never be concidered a nation.

This does mean I disagree with your dictionary definition because it gives a definition that differs from the historical usage of the word 'nation'.

I guess there's not a single definition or usage.
But I rely on what I was taught in school in history and geography and on the dictionairy definition which both define it in a similar way.

Anyway sorry for getting so off track and irrelevant to the OP,
derp.
/:

[Nic0 Fiend]

It seems like in some states and/or towns/cities they force you to stand up and say it.. In my state we are required to do it but at the school I go to they give us an option to do it or not and no consequences come with it. I personally feel like it is kind of outdated and needs to be seriously reformed.

[Jean Poutine]

I didn't choose where I was born. Pride in such a thing is stupid.

The Pledge of Allegiance is brainwashing.

[Stronk Serb]

I didn't choose where I was born. Pride in such a thing is stupid.

The Pledge of Allegiance is brainwashing.

BUT WAHT ABOUT THE SACREUD 'MURRICAN SOIL WHICH OUR PARUNTS AND GRANDPARUNTS DEFENDUD IN ALL DEM BIG BAD WARS?!

But seriously, I can understand people being proud of their nationality, ethnicity etc, but this is like kids in Nazi Germany saying "Ein Volk. Ein Reich. Ein Führer." before class, they don't even knos what it means.

[Jack982]

I believe so, it's about respect to our country and all that it stands for. Yes, America's not perfect, but it is a great place. Plus 2,717,991 people have given their lives for that flag, and many more have been wounded or have gone through other hardships for it. So I believe that the flag deserves respect.

[Gamma Male]

I believe so, it's about respect to our country and all that it stands for. Yes, America's not perfect, but it is a great place. Plus 2,717,991 people have given their lives for that flag, and many more have been wounded or have gone through other hardships for it. So I believe that the flag deserves respect.

I don't want to swear fealty to a government whose foreign policy has killed tens of thousands of innocent people.

[Jack982]

I don't want to swear fealty to a government whose foreign policy has killed tens of thousands of innocent people.

The pledge of allegiance is a pledge to our country, I disagree with many things that the government does, but I say the pledge of allegiance because I love our country, although I hate many things done by the government.

[Gamma Male]

The pledge of allegiance is a pledge to our country, I disagree with many things that the government does, but I say the pledge of allegiance because I love our country, although I hate many things done by the government.

Okay, but it shouldn't be mandatory.

[Jack982]

Okay, but it shouldn't be mandatory.

I disagree, but I understand where you're coming from and I respect your view.

[Miserabilia]

The pledge of allegiance is a pledge to our country, I disagree with many things that the government does, but I say the pledge of allegiance because I love our country, although I hate many things done by the government.

A pledge out of love of your country should be allowed, but should it really be mandatory?
Because if it's mandatory it'll get disliked, in schools for example, kids will probably not want to do it if it's mandatory, or atleast that's how the minds of most kids work.

[Harry Smith]

I believe so, it's about respect to our country and all that it stands for. Yes, America's not perfect, but it is a great place. Plus 2,717,991 people have given their lives for that flag, and many more have been wounded or have gone through other hardships for it. So I believe that the flag deserves respect.

So 2,717,991 have died for a bolt of cloth? That sounds really worthwhile. The flag doesn't deserve any respect in any military sense because of the mass abuse that's associated with it-whether it's in Vietnam or Afghanistan. This whole idea of swearing allegiance to a bolt of cloth is vague at best. I mean a lot of people dying for a cause doesn't make it worthwhile

The pledge of allegiance is a pledge to our country, I disagree with many things that the government does, but I say the pledge of allegiance because I love our country, although I hate many things done by the government.

Is it a pledge to the Government or a pledge to the country? I mean that's where the line becomes extremely unclear, to invoke Godwin in the Film Valkryie one line always stands out the most

'you can either serve the Fuhrer or you can serve Germany, not both'

[Jack982]

A pledge out of love of your country should be allowed, but should it really be mandatory?
Because if it's mandatory it'll get disliked, in schools for example, kids will probably not want to do it if it's mandatory, or atleast that's how the minds of most kids work.

Well, I've gone to six different schools in five different states, all of which the pledge of allegiance was mandatory, and I never heard anyone say that they disliked it in any of those schools.

[Miserabilia]

Well, I've gone to six different schools in five different states, all of which the pledge of allegiance was mandatory, and I never heard anyone say that they disliked it in any of those schools.

Weird. I know I wouldn't but I guess that's just a cultural difference in what's socialy acceptable and what's not.

[Bmble_B]

I dont think it should be mandatory, every child should be free to choose whether they pledge to this country or not, plus, not everyone believes in my religions god (although I do) so why should they be forced to recite a pledge that's not even a part of their religion (sorry if someone else already said this)

[Jack982]

So 2,717,991 have died for a bolt of cloth? That sounds really worthwhile. The flag doesn't deserve any respect in any military sense because of the mass abuse that's associated with it-whether it's in Vietnam or Afghanistan. This whole idea of swearing allegiance to a bolt of cloth is vague at best. I mean a lot of people dying for a cause doesn't make it worthwhile



Is it a pledge to the Government or a pledge to the country? I mean that's where the line becomes extremely unclear, to invoke Godwin in the Film Valkryie one line always stands out the most

'you can either serve the Fuhrer or you can serve Germany, not both'


First, yes the pledge is to the country, not the government. A good citizen's duty is to support his government when it's right and correct it when it's wrong. Now about the military, it's not about the piece of cloth, but what that piece of cloth represents. Also look at why those men died, in Vietnam we did it to stop communism from spreading to South Vietnam, and look at what happened when we left and let the communists win. 2.5 million were sent to reeducation camps, with 150,000 of them dying. 200,000 South Vietnamese were executed by the Communists. 1 million were sent to "New Economic Labor Zones" and 50,000 of them died. Our defeat in Vietnam also caused the communists to win in Laos and Cambodia. In communist Cambodia, 3 million Cambodians were killed in the "Killing fields." The others were forced to do hard labor. The communists government in Laos killed 100,000 Hmong villagers. 1.5 million Laotian, Cambodian, and Vietnamese people came to America after the communists won. I've talked to someone from Cambodia, and he said he wishes we would've stayed there and defeated the communists. So I can say, those three countries would've been in a better place had we won.
We invaded Afghanistan, because Al-Queada killed 3,000 of our people on 9-11, before that they had bombed the USS Cole and killed 17 American sailors, and before that they bombed our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 200 people and wounding 5,000. At the time Bin Laden was living in Afghanistan, so we asked the Taliban (We ruled Afghanistan at the
time) to give us Bin Laden so we could punish him. They refused, also under the Taliban there were no elections, women couldn't go to school, rock music and flying kites was illegal. We invaded there and took the Taliban out of power, now men and women can both vote and go to school and rock music and flying kites is legal. Our soldiers there are also building schools, medical centers, plumbing. My dad's in the Army and he's been there multiple times, and he said that all the Afghans he's talked to have a better life now, than under the Taliban. We're also training the Afghan military so that they can take care of themselves when we leave.
When Japan had it's earthquake, our military was used to send them medicine and food. We also sent troops to look for the kidnapped girls in Nigeria, and we sent troops to help the Congolese find and punish Joseph Kony. We invaded Iraq to get rid of Saddam Huessin, who invaded two countries (Iran in 1980, and Kuwait in 1990.) Saddam tried to assassinate former President Bush (The older one) in 1993 when he was visiting Kuwait in 1993. He also had a secret police, who kidnapped, raped, tortured, and killed people who opposed him. He killed 182,000 Kurds and 280,000 Shia, who were his own citizens. Saddam was a Sunni and he oppresed the Shia and Kurdish populations, such as destroying their religous shrines. Also, our government truly believed he had WMD's (Although we later figured out that was wrong.) Today Iraq is a better place because of us.
We intervened in Bosnia and Kosovo, because the Serbs, Bosniks, and Croats were all killing eachother, so we went in there with the UN and stopped the killing. In 1994 a rebel group in Haiti overthrew the democratically elected president, so we went in there and restored the elected president to power. In 1992, Somalia was suffering famine and genocide, so we sent troops and gave them food and stopped the genocide. We fought the Gulf War because Iraq attacked Kuwait, so America and 40 other nations went in and kicked them out of Kuwait. In 1989 we invaded Panama, because the dictator of Panama had oppresed his people for a
long time and he was also a drug trafficer and his forces killed a US Marine.

In the 80's there was fighting in Lebanon between the Christians and Muslims, so we went in there and we stopped the fighting. We invaded Grenada because a communist rebel group had overthrown the democratically elected president, so we went and restored him to power. We invaded the Dominican Republic in 1965 because rebels had overthrown the president, who was elected so we restored him to power.

We did the Bay of Pigs to get rid of Castro, who executed 30,000 people, he took away people's property and land, he destroyed churches, and he put homosexuals in labor camps. We fought in Korea, because the North Koreans attacked the South. We fought in World War II because we were attacked by the Japanese and we played a big role in defeating the Japanese and Germans (But we defiantly couldn't have done it without our allies.)

We fought in the Russian Civil War to keep the communists from taking over Russia, we lost that war. And we know what the communists did in Russia, 60 million Russian people were killed by the communists.(From when they won in 1917 to when they collapsed in 1991.) We fought in World War I because the Germans sank the Luistana and we played a big role in defeating the Germans (Again, our allies were amazing too.)

We fought in the Boxer Rebellion, because they attacked our embassy in China. We fought in the Spanish
American War, and we freed Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines from Spanish rule. We fought in the Civil War to end
slavery.
We fought the Mexican-American War, because Texas wanted to join us and Mexico wouldn't let them.
We fought the War of 1812, because the British would take our sailors and force them into the Royal Navy, the British helped the
Indians attack us, and yes we also wanted Canada.
The Barbary Pirates were a group of Islamic pirates from Tripoli who had been capturing and enslaving Europeans for two hundred years, and the Europeans never stood up to them. Finally, our President Thomas Jefferson, said enough and we sent troops and defeated the Barbary Pirates. they stopped attacking American and European ships after that.
We had our revolution because we didn't want to be taxed without having a seat in Parliament. So I would say our military's done more good than bad, and the military is an institution that should be honored.

[Vlerchan]

I'm not going to get into the horrifics that the US has committed - I'll leave that to Harry - and I won't go through each conflict mentioned here individually - largely, because there's a few I don't know that much about - but a this stuck out:

We fought the Mexican-American War, because Texas wanted to join us and Mexico wouldn't let them.
But when Texas wanted to leave ...

So I can say, those three countries would've been in a better place had we won.
I wouldn't knock socialism in IndoChina until there's actually socialism in IndoChina.

I also wouldn't knock the economic statues of IndoChina all considering: sustained US bombings of their infrastructure sent it (in LBJ's own words) "back into the stone age" in terms of economic development. It literally had to start developing its industries all over again, and to this day is still hugely based around agriculture.

We did the Bay of Pigs to get rid of Castro, who executed 30,000 people, he took away people's property and land, he destroyed churches, and he put homosexuals in labor camps.
Today, Cuba has a HDI (Human Development Index) of 0.780, which is the eight highest in the Americas.

For a country that literally can't trade with most of the world, and had its largest trading partner (the USSR) fell in the early 1990s, that's pretty incredible.

And we know what the communists did in Russia, 60 million Russian people were killed by the communists.
Source?

I'm bound to dispute a lot of the deaths.

EDIT:

Today Iraq is a better place because of us.
This is also untrue, if we jump back to the original impositions of sanctions (though, even starting on the eve before US invasion I'd consider this a lie)

The US also invaded in order to liberate Iraqi oil onto the global markets.

[Harry Smith]

We did the Bay of Pigs to get rid of Castro, who executed 30,000 people, he took away people's property and land, he destroyed churches, and he put homosexuals in labor camps. We fought in Korea, because the North Koreans attacked the South. We fought in World War II because we were attacked by the Japanese and we played a big role in defeating the Japanese and Germans (But we defiantly couldn't have done it without our allies.)

So I would say our military's done more good than bad, and the military is an institution that should be honored.

So what if the Government goes against the spirit of the Government? I mean I hardly saw anybody actually making the oath worthwhile when George Bush fixed the election.

Please Please Please Please never ever ever again mention the Bay of pigs as an example of a good military campaign, please never. I'm one the most ardent Kennedy loyalists on this board but even I think the bay of pigs was crap-it wasn't about helping the people of Cuba at all. I mean the people of Cuba didn't rise up in support of the landings-they opposed them because it was a CIA backed group of thugs (who later killed JFK). The invasion of Cuba had one aim-to help the Mafia get their casino's back

It's laughable to claim that it had anything to do with morals, you're clearly either ignorant or just very bad at History because the US had a terrible record with Cuba-the guy below was the former president who was supported by the US. He's the definition of a corrupt banana republic president

-He suspended the consitution in 1954
-Horded about 10 billion dollars for himself
-Ran a brutal system of prisons that killed anyone who opposed him
-TLDR:he was a dictator

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Fulgencio_Batista,_president_of_Cuba,_1952.jpg


The premsis of your argument is how the US saves countries from evil etc yet why has the US supported Saudi Arabia for 50 years? Oh yeah they have oil


No matter the topic or point you're trying to make, posting graphic images is against the site's policy, and they've been removed. ~StoppingTime

[Microcosm]

I'm not sure... I mean it is good to be loyal to your country.

[Lost in the Echo]

Well, I mean if you don't want to do the pledge you shouldn't be forced to. I don't see a problem with it being in schools, but you should at least be allowed to chose whether or not you want to take part in the pledge.
But I'd say I'm Agnostic so I'm pretty neutral to this.

[Sir Suomi]

http://perfidem.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/pledgestandingkids.jpg

I'll allow this to stand as my opinion.

[Harry Smith]

image (http://perfidem.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/pledgestandingkids.jpg)

I'll allow this to stand as my opinion.

So because a soldier got shot probably through attacking an Afghan village we should suddenly all swear loyalty to the US government-if you have that mindset then you have a constant state of war. The point of the picture is weak at best considering that the Iraqi's/Taliban werent fighting to stop US rights-they were fighting to defend themselves. This obession that the US have upon their Military is coming close to North Korea

[Vlerchan]

I also had the message of the image missed on me.

I don't think I should respect - or adhere to - something because someone got hurt in upholding that something: seems like some rather awful logic to me.

I mean it is good to be loyal to your country.
How so?

[Miserabilia]

image (http://perfidem.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/pledgestandingkids.jpg)

I'll allow this to stand as my opinion.

I honestly thought that was satire at first.
I mean look how the kid isn't just not doing the pledge, he's sitting with his arms crossed and his legs on the table, like he's just challenging someone.
Ridiculous.

[Gamma Male]

image (http://perfidem.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/pledgestandingkids.jpg)

I'll allow this to stand as my opinion.

That's ridiculous. The fact that a good person got hurt defending an unjust cause doesn't make said cause any less unjust.

[Faolan]

Firstly, I find it foolish that we pledge allegiance to a flag. I understand that it's representative of America, but I don't think we need one in every classroom. Making the pledge mandatory is a violation of the constitution and free speech, and making people say "under God" is even more so.