Free will and faith (particuliary christianity)

[Miserabilia]

So, this is a really specific question and it might go unanswered because of it.

But, I have a question. (For christians in particular)

If you beleive in god and heaven and hell;

do you beleive in free will?

If the answer is no,
then how do you combine faith and determinism?
Why would a god punish people for things that are determined and therefore making the afterlife punishment completely and utterly pointless?

If the answer is yes,
than does that mean that God cannot predict what choises people will make? (It should mean that by definition of free will).
So then...
God is all seeing...
But created something (free will) which he cannot see.
So he created something that is more powerful then himself, not to mention taking away his all knowingnes.

My question is, how do christians solve this problem?
What is the answer?

[Horatio Nelson]

This is a great article on the subject: http://carm.org/predestination-and-election

I believe in predetermined salvation or damnation. Which can be a bit disheartening at times. But whether or not someone is or isn't "elect" or "predestined" is not for me to worry about. It is still my duty as a Christian to share my belief with others.

[saea97]

Typically, the conflict between omniscience and free-will is 'resolved' by stating that God's knowledge of the end result does not preclude our own free-will (ie: as long as we don't know the end goal, we still choose freely and simply follow a path that God already knew we would.)

Seems weak to you? Yeah, me too, but it's what's on the mark scheme for the A Level Philosophy exam I just sat.

[Living For Love]

God, being a supreme and omnipresent entity, knows everything about you, about your future decisions even before you make them.

[Irishperson15]

In my opinion,free will is more a way of seeing if we will do what is good in life. For example, God already has our final fate set out but he provides us with various decisions in life. What our free will does is allow us to make those decisions, whether they be right or wrong. My free will could be to decide between cheese or ham, or between whether I do lash out at someone or not. The list is endless, from each minor decision, to the things that could potentially be life-changing.

I think God gives us all free will as a gift to see what we will do with it. The same goes for our other gifts, such as talents, will we use them to help others or use them to exploit those less well-off than we are?

[Gamma Male]

God, being a supreme and omnipresent entity, knows everything about you, about your future decisions even before you make them.

But if the future has already been determined and God knows what is going to happen, we don't really have free will.

This is a great article on the subject: http://carm.org/predestination-and-election

I believe in predetermined salvation or damnation. Which can be a bit disheartening at times. But whether or not someone is or isn't "elect" or "predestined" is not for me to worry about. It is still my duty as a Christian to share my belief with others.

Why would an omnipotent, omnisceint diety punish somebody for something that have no control over?

Please refrain from double posting. -Cygnus David

[Horatio Nelson]

Why would an omnipotent, omnisceint diety punish somebody for something that have no control over?

You do have control over it. You can control your behavior and your beliefs. You can do whatever the heck you want. But in the end, it was all preordained.

[Gamma Male]

You do have control over it. You can control your behavior and your beliefs. You can do whatever the heck you want. But in the end, it was all preordained.

That doesn't make any sense. We can do what we will, but we can't will what we we will. Yeah, whether or not I pick up a penny off of the ground is up to me, but "me" is not up to me. Ultimately I have no control over my nature or the choices I make, because every choice I make is predetermined by a previous state of the universe.

And no offense, but your God sounds like an evil prick. Why would he make someone with, say, pedophilic urges and a bad sense of self control, but them punish them when the inevitable happens? If the future is predetermined, and they have no control over their actions, why would God make pedophiles or murderers in the first place? Shouldn't he have designed us better? Or at the very least, not punish us for acting the way he designed us to act? What kind of evil sadist does that?

[Horatio Nelson]

We were created perfect, until Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden. But you probably think I'm crazy for believing such hullabaloo.

[Living For Love]

But if the future has already been determined and God knows what is going to happen, we don't really have free will.

You do. For instance, you are now probably sitting on a chair, in your bedroom, and you're reading this. But right now you can do whatever you like. You can turn off the computer, break your bedroom window for no reason at all, hug your dad, throw a paper ball at your cat, drive a car and go to the local supermarket, buy a chocolate bar, throw the chocolate bar into the river right after buying it, get into a plane to London, attempt to kiss the Queen by breaking the security barrier and then finally have dinner with Scarlett Johnson in a prison in Las Vegas. You can do all this and much more. It's just that Good knew you would think about this even before you were born. But that doesn't affect you either way, so it's fine.

[Gamma Male]

We were created perfect, until Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden. But you probably think I'm crazy for believing such hullabaloo.
But like I said, God already knew that was gonna happen. Not only did he already know Eve would do that, but he designed her, and the world, and the talking snake, with that specific intention in mind. And yet he still punished Eve for something that wasn't really her fault. And he's still doing that. So either
A: God is a sadistic psychopath. Or
B: There is no God.
You do. For instance, you are now probably sitting on a chair, in your bedroom, and you're reading this. But right now you can do whatever you like. You can turn off the computer, break your bedroom window for no reason at all, hug your dad, throw a paper ball at your cat, drive a car and go to the local supermarket, buy a chocolate bar, throw the chocolate bar into the river right after buying it, get into a plane to London, attempt to kiss the Queen by breaking the security barrier and then finally have dinner with Scarlett Johnson in a prison in Las Vegas. You can do all this and much more. It's just that Good knew you would think about this even before you were born. But that doesn't affect you either way, so it's fine.

Human beings are bound by the laws of physics just like everything else. The present state of the universe is always determined by a previous state. Though we may think we have free will, what we decide to do and think is really determined by electrical signals in our brains, and how those electrical signals in our brains behave are determined by external stimuli. We have no real control over our actions.

[Horatio Nelson]

God made all of these events happen so that his son (Jesus) could come, die on the cross, and rise from the dead, so that all my be saved. God created humanity for his glory, he says so himself. But I understand this is hard for you to grasp.

[Typhlosion]

So...

God made us with our destiny set (fatalism) without our path to that destiny set (free will) even though he always knew what path we would take in our free will (omniscience). Also, he creates a son, which is himself as well, so that we be saved for our sins, even if predetermined? Who, by the way, was killed by people with a supposed free will, meaning that the fate of Jesus was not necessarily his sacrifice?

Good thing God is (or supposed to be) omnipotent or otherwise he would have a damn headache.

[Gamma Male]

God made all of these events happen so that his son (Jesus) could come, die on the cross, and rise from the dead, so that all my be saved. God created humanity for his glory, he says so himself. But I understand this is hard for you to grasp.

Okay, but you still haven't answered my question. Why send people to hell for actions which they have no control over?

[Horatio Nelson]

Okay, but you still haven't answered my question. Why send people to hell for actions which they have no control over?

Dude, I don't know all of the answers. When I do, I'll tell you.

[Gamma Male]

Dude, I don't know all of the answers. When I do, I'll tell you.

I get that you don't know everything, but this seems like a preeeeetty major fault in your belief system. Why are tens of billions of innocent people being sent to hell, were they're tortured in the most disgusting, painful, inhumane ways possible, for all ETERNITY, for something they have no control over, while an omnipotent, omnibelevelant god just sits and does nothing? If you don't know the answer to that maybe you should rexamine your position.

[Horatio Nelson]

You're taking it the wrong way. You can still decide whether or not you follow God, just like yourself, right? You chose your beliefs and ideals. God didn't make that decision for you. You do have free will.

[Typhlosion]

You're taking it the wrong way. You can still decide whether or not you follow God, just like yourself, right? You chose your beliefs and ideals. God didn't make that decision for you. You do have free will.But... God does know how we will be at our ends, right?

[Lovelife090994]

Free will is basically an ability to choose. God gave man intelligence and freedom to live as he or she sees fit. God may know all the answers but he won't tell it all to you. You have your life to live and only you can write your destiny. Free will is freedom. This is why God loves us so. No matter what we do he still loves and forgives. He may not like everything but he forgives everything when you ask.

I get that you don't know everything, but this seems like a preeeeetty major fault in your belief system. Why are tens of billions of innocent people being sent to hell, were they're tortured in the most disgusting, painful, inhumane ways possible, for all ETERNITY, for something they have no control over, while an omnipotent, omnibelevelant god just sits and does nothing? If you don't know the answer to that maybe you should rexamine your position.

God is not the reason someone is in Hell. It hurts him too to see his people suffer. Hell's punishment is to separate us from God. But once you make your choice then you reap the consequences. And you have control over your actions. Also, we are human, not gods. We don't have all the answers.

[Gamma Male]

Free will is basically an ability to choose. God gave man intelligence and freedom to live as he or she sees fit. God may know all the answers but he won't tell it all to you. You have your life to live and only you can write your destiny. Free will is freedom. This is why God loves us so. No matter what we do he still loves and forgives. He may not like everything but he forgives everything when you ask.



God is not the reason someone is in Hell. It hurts him too to see his people suffer. Hell's punishment is to separate us from God. But once you make your choice then you reap the consequences. And you have control over your actions. Also, we are human, not gods. We don't have all the answers.

Why doesn't he intervene? Why doesn't he prevent us from going to hell?

[Horatio Nelson]

But... God does know how we will be at our ends, right?

Yeah, like I said to Donald. We can decide our fate. But that fate we chose was already foreknown to God. That may be a hard concept to wrap your mind around. But as far as I'm concerned, it's the truth.


(I can't multi-quote on mobile) To Donald: He doesn't intervene because you alone made that decision for yourself. He gives us all of the help he can, but in the end, it is up to you to decide.

[Lovelife090994]

Why doesn't he intervene? Why doesn't he prevent us from going to hell?

He tries. But we aren't going to listen to someone we either A) don't believe in, or B) won't listen to. You have to be willing to listen. He won't barge into your life. That's where free will comes in. You can be Christian, or not. No one can really make you hear God. It's not like he wants us in Hell. Hell was never meant for man. In fact it's not God who puts humans there.

[CharlieHorse]

You do. For instance, you are now probably sitting on a chair, in your bedroom, and you're reading this. But right now you can do whatever you like. You can turn off the computer, break your bedroom window for no reason at all, hug your dad, throw a paper ball at your cat, drive a car and go to the local supermarket, buy a chocolate bar, throw the chocolate bar into the river right after buying it, get into a plane to London, attempt to kiss the Queen by breaking the security barrier and then finally have dinner with Scarlett Johnson in a prison in Las Vegas. You can do all this and much more. It's just that Good knew you would think about this even before you were born. But that doesn't affect you either way, so it's fine.

how does "God" know all this without a brain, or for that matter, any physical existence at all?

He tries. But we aren't going to listen to someone we either A) don't believe in, or B) won't listen to. You have to be willing to listen. He won't barge into your life. That's where free will comes in. You can be Christian, or not. No one can really make you hear God. It's not like he wants us in Hell. Hell was never meant for man. In fact it's not God who puts humans there.

oh and i'm not a Christian, does that mean i'm going to hell too?
I thought us Buddhists would walk a path to enlightenment, after being reincarnated as an animal of course because I believe in just the right Hindu gods, and I'll probably also have a drink with Zeus or Poseidon cuz they're cool bros. I'll just add it into my schedule to go visit hell after all that.

[Lovelife090994]

how does "God" know all this without a brain, or for that matter, any physical existence at all?



oh and i'm not a Christian, does that mean i'm going to hell too?
I thought us Buddhists would walk a path to enlightenment, after being reincarnated as an animal of course because I believe in just the right Hindu gods, and I'll probably also have a drink with Zeus or Poseidon cuz they're cool bros. I'll just add it into my schedule to go visit hell after all that.

I never said you would go to Hell. But in Christian faith, Jesus is the way. No one gets to The Father except through him. God makes the ultimate ruling.

[CharlieHorse]

I never said you would go to Hell. But in Christian faith, Jesus is the way. No one gets to The Father except through him. God makes the ultimate ruling.

So then what happens when I'm not in Christian faith?

[Lovelife090994]

So then what happens when I'm not in Christian faith?

Then that is up to you and God but out of God's hands and into yours. It is all up to you now and how you live your life.

[Miserabilia]

This is a great article on the subject: http://carm.org/predestination-and-election

I believe in predetermined salvation or damnation. Which can be a bit disheartening at times. But whether or not someone is or isn't "elect" or "predestined" is not for me to worry about. It is still my duty as a Christian to share my belief with others.

Mmmm that article didn't really answer my question but it was relevant to determinism vs free will in christianity.
Doesn't your determinism make the punishment useles?
Why would a god punish people for things predetermined to happen?


Typically, the conflict between omniscience and free-will is 'resolved' by stating that God's knowledge of the end result does not preclude our own free-will (ie: as long as we don't know the end goal, we still choose freely and simply follow a path that God already knew we would.)

Seems weak to you? Yeah, me too, but it's what's on the mark scheme for the A Level Philosophy exam I just sat.

Lolwut. So god is punishing us for predetermined things.
It does seem weak ):

In my opinion,free will is more a way of seeing if we will do what is good in life. For example, God already has our final fate set out but he provides us with various decisions in life. What our free will does is allow us to make those decisions, whether they be right or wrong. My free will could be to decide between cheese or ham, or between whether I do lash out at someone or not. The list is endless, from each minor decision, to the things that could potentially be life-changing.

I think God gives us all free will as a gift to see what we will do with it. The same goes for our other gifts, such as talents, will we use them to help others or use them to exploit those less well-off than we are?
God already has our final fate set out but he provides us with various decisions in life.
So you do beleive in free will.
You beleive that god cannot see what choices we will make in the future, then.
So god created something more powerful than himself???
(Free will being something he can not know in advance)


We were created perfect, until Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden. But you probably think I'm crazy for believing such hullabaloo.
Sigh no I do not think you are crazy, that's prejeduice of you to think that of people.

You do. For instance, you are now probably sitting on a chair, in your bedroom, and you're reading this. But right now you can do whatever you like. You can turn off the computer, break your bedroom window for no reason at all, hug your dad, throw a paper ball at your cat, drive a car and go to the local supermarket, buy a chocolate bar, throw the chocolate bar into the river right after buying it, get into a plane to London, attempt to kiss the Queen by breaking the security barrier and then finally have dinner with Scarlett Johnson in a prison in Las Vegas. You can do all this and much more. It's just that God knew you would think about this even before you were born. But that doesn't affect you either way, so it's fine.

So you do beleive in free will.
You beleive the universe does not follow a straight line and that our choises do not require cause and effect.

It's just that God knew you would think about this even before you were born.

But that just excludes free will, because if god knows the choises you will make, they are predetermined.




God made all of these events happen so that his son (Jesus) could come, die on the cross, and rise from the dead, so that all my be saved. God created humanity for his glory, he says so himself. But I understand this is hard for you to grasp.

This is completely irrelevant to the question.


So...

God made us with our destiny set (fatalism) without our path to that destiny set (free will) even though he always knew what path we would take in our free will (omniscience). Also, he creates a son, which is himself as well, so that we be saved for our sins, even if predetermined? Who, by the way, was killed by people with a supposed free will, meaning that the fate of Jesus was not necessarily his sacrifice?

Good thing God is (or supposed to be) omnipotent or otherwise he would have a damn headache.

My thoughts too, which is why I made this post.


You're taking it the wrong way. You can still decide whether or not you follow God, just like yourself, right? You chose your beliefs and ideals. God didn't make that decision for you. You do have free will.

So you have free will.
So god created free will.
So god created something that he cannot see/know.
So god is not all knowing/seeing.



Free will is basically an ability to choose. God gave man intelligence and freedom to live as he or she sees fit. God may know all the answers but he won't tell it all to you. You have your life to live and only you can write your destiny. Free will is freedom. This is why God loves us so. No matter what we do he still loves and forgives. He may not like everything but he forgives everything when you ask.

So you have free will.
So god created free will.
So god created something that he cannot see/know.
So god is not all knowing/seeing.




God is not the reason someone is in Hell. It hurts him too to see his people suffer. Hell's punishment is to separate us from God. But once you make your choice then you reap the consequences. And you have control over your actions. Also, we are human, not gods. We don't have all the answers.

It hurts him too to see his people suffer. Hell's punishment is to separate us from God. But once you make your choice then you reap the consequences.

That's still just god being responsible for people going to hell.
Also, please stick relevant to the thread concept, thanks :3

Yeah, like I said to Donald. We can decide our fate. But that fate we chose was already foreknown to God. That may be a hard concept to wrap your mind around. But as far as I'm concerned, it's the truth.
(I can't multi-quote on mobile) To Donald: He doesn't intervene because you alone made that decision for yourself. He gives us all of the help he can, but in the end, it is up to you to decide.

We can decide our fate. But that fate we chose was already foreknown to God.

A.k.a determinism.

So god already knows what you will do.
So there is determinism.
So eternal afterlife punishment is utterly pointless.

[Living For Love]

how does "God" know all this without a brain, or for that matter, any physical existence at all?
god (gŏd)
n.
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

Source: The Free Dictionary

For the Chrisitan who believe in God, he's not a human, he's a supernatural being. You can't expect God to have a brain, lol, the definition of God already comprises the knowledge of everything that happened, happens and will happen.


So you do beleive in free will.
You beleive the universe does not follow a straight line and that our choises do not require cause and effect.
Philosophies aside, and in my opinion, this thing works this way: you make decisions in a daily basis: what you're going to wear, what you're going to eat for lunch, what you're going to do in your free time, etc. Does God already know what you're going to wear, eat and do tomorrow? Yes, he does. Can he change it? Yes, he can. Will he change it? I don't know. Because he can interfere, does that mean you don't have free will? No. This happens because God doesn't exist physically, he's not someone who's at your side telling what to do and forcing you to choose this instead of that.

[Miserabilia]

Philosophies aside, and in my opinion, this thing works this way: you make decisions in a daily basis: what you're going to wear, what you're going to eat for lunch, what you're going to do in your free time, etc. Does God already know what you're going to wear, eat and do tomorrow? Yes, he does. Can he change it? Yes, he can. Will he change it? I don't know. Because he can interfere, does that mean you don't have free will? No. This happens because God doesn't exist physically, he's not someone who's at your side telling what to do and forcing you to choose this instead of that.

. Because he can interfere, does that mean you don't have free will?


No, but this does;
Does God already know what you're going to wear, eat and do tomorrow? Yes, he does.

That means there is no free will,
unless you are implying there are other choices that god cannot see, which just leads to my other problem.

Maybe you are having the wrong idea of actual determinism v.s free will here.

Determinism implies that the universe is traveling in a straight line of time, where everytihng in the universe is working with cause and effect.
Your choices are made with your brain, which works with cells which is made of molecules made of atoms.
Determinism says that our brains and therefore work with cause and effect and therefore everything you'll ever do is predetermined.

Free will implies that the human brain somehow works with different rules than cause and effect and can make choices completely indipendent of cause and effect and the outside world.

[Living For Love]

No, but this does;
Does God already know what you're going to wear, eat and do tomorrow? Yes, he does.
That means there is no free will,
unless you are implying there are other choices that god cannot see, which just leads to my other problem.

How can the fact that God knows what you're going to do in the future mean that there is no free will? Determinism or Heisenberg's theories are not relevant, whatever it is happening, be it the universe following a cause-effect line or the atoms indeterminism, whatever it is, God already knows how things are going to be unfolded and how everything is going to be, the path it will take, and how it will end.

[Irishperson15]

Mmmm that article didn't really answer my question but it was relevant to determinism vs free will in christianity.
Doesn't your determinism make the punishment useles?
Why would a god punish people for things predetermined to happen?




Lolwut. So god is punishing us for predetermined things.
It does seem weak ):



So you do beleive in free will.
You beleive that god cannot see what choices we will make in the future, then.
So god created something more powerful than himself???
(Free will being something he can not know in advance)



Sigh no I do not think you are crazy, that's prejeduice of you to think that of people.



So you do beleive in free will.
You beleive the universe does not follow a straight line and that our choises do not require cause and effect.



But that just excludes free will, because if god knows the choises you will make, they are predetermined.






This is completely irrelevant to the question.




My thoughts too, which is why I made this post.




So you have free will.
So god created free will.
So god created something that he cannot see/know.
So god is not all knowing/seeing.





So you have free will.
So god created free will.
So god created something that he cannot see/know.
So god is not all knowing/seeing.





That's still just god being responsible for people going to hell.
Also, please stick relevant to the thread concept, thanks :3





A.k.a determinism.

So god already knows what you will do.
So there is determinism.
So eternal afterlife punishment is utterly pointless.

I think you are misinterpreting the point. God didn't create 'free will' it's not a thing, it's a choice. He is giving us the chance to prove ourselves by seeing if we make the right or wrong choice. It isn't more powerful than him, it's just your choice as to how you will achieve your fate.

[Miserabilia]

I think you are misinterpreting the point. God didn't create 'free will' it's not a thing, it's a choice. He is giving us the chance to prove ourselves by seeing if we make the right or wrong choice. It isn't more powerful than him, it's just your choice as to how you will achieve your fate.

God didn't create 'free will' it's not a thing, it's a choice.

So that's a choice we made.
In order for us to make an actual choice (independent of the determinism of the universe or god), we need free will in the first place.
That's circular.

He is giving us the chance to prove ourselves by seeing if we make the right or wrong choice.

a.k.a free will.

it's just your choice as to how you will achieve your fate.

a.k.a free will.

The only point I see you making now is that free will does exist.
So that means that god can not know what choice we will make,
so that means that he is not all knowing, doesn't it.


How can the fact that God knows what you're going to do in the future mean that there is no free will? Determinism or Heisenberg's theories are not relevant, whatever it is happening, be it the universe following a cause-effect line or the atoms indeterminism, whatever it is, God already knows how things are going to be unfolded and how everything is going to be, the path it will take, and how it will end.

How can the fact that God knows what you're going to do in the future mean that there is no free will?

Because if he knows what you are going to do, that implies that that is what you are going to do. So there is no other possiblity;
no free will.
determinism.
It's really simple.

whatever it is, God already knows how things are going to be unfolded and how everything is going to be, the path it will take, and how it will end.

So; why would he punish people for things they are not actualy responsible for, because they were predetermined to do the things they did?
It takes away the whole point of an afterlife punishment.

[Living For Love]

Because if he knows what you are going to do, that implies that that is what you are going to do. So there is no other possiblity;
no free will.
determinism.
It's really simple.
Well, do you feel that "burden of God's will's power" in your life? No. You do whatever you want, he just knows that, nothing else. You can change your decisions, but he knows you were going to change them. He knows what you're going to do in the sense of knowing everything, not in the sense of participating in your decisions.

So; why would he punish people for things they are not actualy responsible for, because they were predetermined to do the things they did?
It takes away the whole point of an afterlife punishment.
They are not predetermined, you do what you want. And people are always responsible for what they do. Can you just please exemplify that theory of yours?

May I ask you something: do you fear death?

[Miserabilia]

Well, do you feel that "burden of God's will's power" in your life? No. You do whatever you want, he just knows that, nothing else. You can change your decisions, but he knows you were going to change them. He knows what you're going to do in the sense of knowing everything, not in the sense of participating in your decisions.


They are not predetermined, you do what you want. And people are always responsible for what they do. Can you just please exemplify that theory of yours?

May I ask you something: do you fear death?

Well, do you feel that "burden of God's will's power" in your life? No. You do whatever you want, he just knows that, nothing else. You can change your decisions, but he knows you were going to change them. He knows what you're going to do in the sense of knowing everything, not in the sense of participating in your decisions.

Doesn't matter, everything you just said describes determinism.
God cannot know every choice you make unless every choise you make is predetermined.

Can you just please exemplify that theory of yours?

Not a theory, just the definitions of free will and determinism.
Everything you described so far is determinism.
We can not make a choice independent of cause and effect or god.

May I ask you something: do you fear death?

Nope. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=206564)

[Living For Love]

God cannot know every choice you make unless every choise you make is predetermined.
Really...? Why do you say so?

[Miserabilia]

Really...? Why do you say so?

Okay, let's say god knows every choise you make but they are not predetermined.
That means that god is like "Oh person A will make choise A right now."
But the choice isn't predetermined, so person A chooses choice B.
God did not see that coming, did he?
That would make him not all knowing.
The only way god can know everything people will every choose to do is if determinism exists, I can't really put it differently or make it any simpler.

[Living For Love]

Okay, let's say god knows every choise you make but they are not predetermined.
That means that god is like "Oh person A will make choise A right now."
But the choice isn't predetermined, so person A chooses choice B.
God did not see that coming, did he?
That would make him not all knowing.
The only way god can know everything people will every choose to do is if determinism exists, I can't really put it differently or make it any simpler.
So, in that case, you agree with determinism or not?

[Irishperson15]

So that's a choice we made.
In order for us to make an actual choice (independent of the determinism of the universe or god), we need free will in the first place.
That's circular.



a.k.a free will.



a.k.a free will.

The only point I see you making now is that free will does exist.
So that means that god can not know what choice we will make,
so that means that he is not all knowing, doesn't it.






Because if he knows what you are going to do, that implies that that is what you are going to do. So there is no other possiblity;
no free will.
determinism.
It's really simple.



So; why would he punish people for things they are not actualy responsible for, because they were predetermined to do the things they did?
It takes away the whole point of an afterlife punishment.

I said free will exists as it was given to us by God but it is not a real, physical thing, it exists only in our minds. We were all born with the capacity to make decision-making powers and they were given to us to see how we would live our lives. If we didn't have free will what would we do? We wouldn't be able to decide anything.

Nope, he is all knowing. He has a pre-determined path for all of us and knows we will take one from a choice of options and that, no matter what, we will always reach the same final outcome. I feel that the choices we have are also presented to us by God to see what we will do. As a result, he knows we will do one of two/three things because that's the capacity of what we think to do in whatever situation.

[Camazotz]

I said free will exists as it was given to us by God but it is not a real, physical thing, it exists only in our minds. We were all born with the capacity to make decision-making powers and they were given to us to see how we would live our lives. If we didn't have free will what would we do? We wouldn't be able to decide anything.

Like you said, free will isn't a real, physical thing. It's an idea invented by man. According to determinism, all the choices we make are our perceptions of free will. We make decisions, but due to the causality of nature, they're all influenced in a predictable manner, and thus the universe has already been determined the rest of time and space.

Nope, he is all knowing. He has a pre-determined path for all of us and knows we will take one from a choice of options and that, no matter what, we will always reach the same final outcome. I feel that the choices we have are also presented to us by God to see what we will do. As a result, he knows we will do one of two/three things because that's the capacity of what we think to do in whatever situation.

The underlined text is pre-destination and a form of determinism. The bold text is a form of free will. The two ideas contradict one another. God is either all knowing (and knows what choices you will make due to being omniscient) and thus determinism is your philosophical belief, OR God gave you free will and you the choices you will make are unknown to God because he cannot know or control your destiny (which is why it's called "free will").

[Horatio Nelson]

I said free will exists as it was given to us by God but it is not a real, physical thing, it exists only in our minds. We were all born with the capacity to make decision-making powers and they were given to us to see how we would live our lives. If we didn't have free will what would we do? We wouldn't be able to decide anything.

Nope, he is all knowing. He has a pre-determined path for all of us and knows we will take one from a choice of options and that, no matter what, we will always reach the same final outcome. I feel that the choices we have are also presented to us by God to see what we will do. As a result, he knows we will do one of two/three things because that's the capacity of what we think to do in whatever situation.

This is a great way to put it.

Free will isn't real, it's a mental thing. We may think we have complete control over our lives. But in the end, it was all predetermined. I don't get what else there is to argue here.

[Camazotz]

This is a great way to put it.

Free will isn't real, it's a mental thing. We may think we have complete control over our lives. But in the end, it was all predetermined. I don't get what else there is to argue here.

So there is no free will. We perceive free will because we think we are acting independently, but if everything was already predetermined, there's actually no such thing as free will.

[Lovelife090994]

Like you said, free will isn't a real, physical thing. It's an idea invented by man. According to determinism, all the choices we make are our perceptions of free will. We make decisions, but due to the causality of nature, they're all influenced in a predictable manner, and thus the universe has already been determined the rest of time and space.



The underlined text is pre-destination and a form of determinism. The bold text is a form of free will. The two ideas contradict one another. God is either all knowing (and knows what choices you will make due to being omniscient) and thus determinism is your philosophical belief, OR God gave you free will and you the choices you will make are unknown to God because he cannot know or control your destiny (which is why it's called "free will").

Free will is more mental and spiritual.

This is a great way to put it.

Free will isn't real, it's a mental thing. We may think we have complete control over our lives. But in the end, it was all predetermined. I don't get what else there is to argue here.

The argument is the child of different opinions.

[Horatio Nelson]

So there is no free will. We perceive free will because we think we are acting independently, but if everything was already predetermined, there's actually no such thing as free will.

Yup, exactly.

[Camazotz]

Free will is more mental and spiritual.

So it doesn't actually exist; it's just a concept made up by man to explain the feeling of freedom of choice, but in reality, everything was already decided before we were born and thus, we have no actual free will.

Yup, exactly.

So if that's the case, then God punishes people to Hell without them actually ever having a chance. Everything was already determined before a person was even born.

[Horatio Nelson]

So if that's the case, then God punishes people to Hell without them actually ever having a chance. Everything was already determined before a person was even born.

Exactly.

[Lovelife090994]

So it doesn't actually exist; it's just a concept made up by man to explain the feeling of freedom of choice, but in reality, everything was already decided before we were born and thus, we have no actual free will.



So if that's the case, then God punishes people to Hell without them actually ever having a chance. Everything was already determined before a person was even born.

Exactly.

Not exactly. Any one can change their ways and become saved. Also free will does exist. Just because you don't understand it or dismiss the supernatural doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We all have a choice, it is God-given.

[Horatio Nelson]

Not exactly. Any one can change their ways and become saved. Also free will does exist. Just because you don't understand it or dismiss the supernatural doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We all have a choice, it is God-given.

But that change of ways to become saved was predetermined by God.

[Lovelife090994]

But that change of ways to become saved was predetermined by God.

Not quite. As a Christian you are instructed to help those in need. If someone wants to know Our Lord and Savior then we help them. Christians spread the Word of God because we want to see no one in Hell who really wants to change. Either way, the choice is still to the person. When you die you are no longer tied to Eartg. If you are not with God and have an evil heart then you can't go to Heaven either after Final Judgement. Where does this leave the soul? Souls have no place on Earth, and by being vulnerable to the Devil after now pushing God away; Hell opens up. Heaven was meant for us but your choices dictate what happens. We don't know everything, but we mustn't give into darkness. Our decisions and mind allow us to think and avoid this. Anyone can get into Heaven, granted they are willing to go.

[Camazotz]

Not exactly. Any one can change their ways and become saved. Also free will does exist. Just because you don't understand it or dismiss the supernatural doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We all have a choice, it is God-given.

If God is all-knowing, then he must know what will happen, when it will happen, and how it will happen. That negates the concept of free will, because if there is a Divine plan, then we are merely pawns in a giant game of chess.

If free will exists, God must not be all-knowing because he left humans up to our own demise, to make choices and decisions without a predetermined plan.

So do you believe in free will or not?

Not quite. As a Christian you are instructed to help those in need. If someone wants to know Our Lord and Savior then we help them. Christians spread the Word of God because we want to see no one in Hell who really wants to change. Either way, the choice is still to the person. When you die you are no longer tied to Eartg. If you are not with God and have an evil heart then you can't go to Heaven either after Final Judgement. Where does this leave the soul? Souls have no place on Earth, and by being vulnerable to the Devil after now pushing God away; Hell opens up. Heaven was meant for us but your choices dictate what happens. We don't know everything, but we mustn't give into darkness. Our decisions and mind allow us to think and avoid this. Anyone can get into Heaven, granted they are willing to go.

So God can't be all knowing if free will exists.

[Lovelife090994]

If God is all-knowing, then he must know what will happen, when it will happen, and how it will happen. That negates the concept of free will, because if there is a Divine plan, then we are merely pawns in a giant game of chess.

If free will exists, God must not be all-knowing because he left humans up to our own demise, to make choices and decisions without a predetermined plan.

So do you believe in free will or not?



So God can't be all knowing if free will exists.

Yes God can be. He doesn't force our hands. Simple. We live and we operate. God helps and guides when WE ask. God doesn't barge in like a tyrant. God does have a plan, sometimes we don't know it. His plans involve us reaching our dreams but we can choose to follow and act out our dreams or ignore it. When people say "God has a plan for you" it means we are wishing you well and that you have a blessing for you.

[CharlieHorse]

god (gŏd)
n.
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

Source: The Free Dictionary

For the Chrisitan who believe in God, he's not a human, he's a supernatural being. You can't expect God to have a brain, lol, the definition of God already comprises the knowledge of everything that happened, happens and will happen.


Philosophies aside, and in my opinion, this thing works this way: you make decisions in a daily basis: what you're going to wear, what you're going to eat for lunch, what you're going to do in your free time, etc. Does God already know what you're going to wear, eat and do tomorrow? Yes, he does. Can he change it? Yes, he can. Will he change it? I don't know. Because he can interfere, does that mean you don't have free will? No. This happens because God doesn't exist physically, he's not someone who's at your side telling what to do and forcing you to choose this instead of that.

I guess I'm curious to know just as to how you can believe such a thing.

Then that is up to you and God but out of God's hands and into yours. It is all up to you now and how you live your life.

I've heard some Christians tell me that if i don't believe in god, then I'm going to hell.
You tell me otherwise.
To what belief should I give credit of validity?

Merged double post. -Cygnus David

[Camazotz]

Yes God can be. He doesn't force our hands. Simple. We live and we operate. God helps and guides when WE ask. God doesn't barge in like a tyrant. God does have a plan, sometimes we don't know it. His plans involve us reaching our dreams but we can choose to follow and act out our dreams or ignore it. When people say "God has a plan for you" it means we are wishing you well and that you have a blessing for you.

How can God help us if he already has an "elaborate plan"? It's not really helping if that's what he planned all along; it'd be helping if he changed those plans, which would imply that they weren't good enough the first time. If we have free will, then that plan is subject to change at any moment.

But you're saying that because he's omniscient, then he already knows what's going to happen to us; he has already determined our fate. Thus no free will.

"God has a plan for you" implies that God knows what he's doing, like he's manipulating our fate in his own scheme, which isn't free will at all.

I know that you have a strong faith in God, but how do you answer these contradicting questions?

God either...
1) has a plan (that we don't know about) for each and every person, thus making free will just an illusion: No matter what we choose, God already decided our fate.
2) gave humans free will to act and make decisions on our own according, which directly contradicts a "master plan." If humans can choose to follow God, that is their decision only, meaning it was not "meant to be."

[Lovelife090994]

How can God help us if he already has an "elaborate plan"? It's not really helping if that's what he planned all along; it'd be helping if he changed those plans, which would imply that they weren't good enough the first time. If we have free will, then that plan is subject to change at any moment.

But you're saying that because he's omniscient, then he already knows what's going to happen to us; he has already determined our fate. Thus no free will.

"God has a plan for you" implies that God knows what he's doing, like he's manipulating our fate in his own scheme, which isn't free will at all.

I know that you have a strong faith in God, but how do you answer these contradicting questions?

God either...
1) has a plan (that we don't know about) for each and every person, thus making free will just an illusion: No matter what we choose, God already decided our fate.
2) gave humans free will to act and make decisions on our own according, which directly contradicts a "master plan." If humans can choose to follow God, that is their decision only, meaning it was not "meant to be."

Well, you do have freedom to say as you please. God's power is words. The universe was spoken into life. You speak. You think. You decide. I do have a strong faith but it doesn't take that to know of free will. Free will is the ability to think. God's plan is reassurance for things to go right. Wouldn't you want to know that things will go well? We are not pawns. God is like a guardian and watcher. He looks out for us but we can act too.

[Horatio Nelson]

Well, you do have freedom to say as you please. God's power is words. The universe was spoken into life. You speak. You think. You decide. I do have a strong faith but it doesn't take that to know of free will. Free will is the ability to think. God's plan is reassurance for things to go right. Wouldn't you want to know that things will go well? We are not pawns. God is like a guardian and watcher. He looks out for us but we can act too.

Saying that also says that God is not in control, which wouldn't make him all knowing, therefore making him obsolete. It seems to me you have some backwards theology.

[Lovelife090994]

Saying that also says that God is not in control, which wouldn't make him all knowing, therefore making him obsolete. It seems to me you have some backwards theology.

God is in control but he won't stop you from sinning. I never said God wasn't in control. You must not have read correctly. I tried to convey it properly. God is never obsolete.

[Horatio Nelson]

God is in control but he won't stop you from sinning.

I never said he would......?

Besides, we are debating determinism versus free will here, not salvation and the like.

[Lovelife090994]

I never said he would......?

Besides, we are debating determinism versus free will here, not salvation and the like.

Yeah, but that's free will. God knows our path. We don't know our path. God knows every possible path we'll take. It's up to us to choose which one to go down out of billions.

[Camazotz]

Well, you do have freedom to say as you please. God's power is words. The universe was spoken into life. You speak. You think. You decide. I do have a strong faith but it doesn't take that to know of free will. Free will is the ability to think.

Free will is our perception of decisions that ultimately derive from cause and effect. I scratch my arm because I get an itch. I go downstairs for food because I get hungry. I feel happy when the sun comes out; the physiological processes of delight result from a release in endorphin due to a conditioned response to good weather.

God's plan is reassurance for things to go right. Wouldn't you want to know that things will go well?

But your good wishes mean nothing: God's plan is his own, right? You wishing me good health might contradict his own plan, and he can strike me down with internal bleeding. You can pray for me all you want, but it ultimately means nothing because God already decided what he's going to do with me.

We are not pawns. God is like a guardian and watcher. He looks out for us but we can act too.

Make up your mind: Is he a guardian/watcher, or a chess player? Does God interfere with our lives? There are two options:

1) God has predetermined everything and has a plan for every person, thus no free will.
2) We have free will: we can act and make decisions, and God cannot have an "ultimate plan" because it has not yet been decided because we all have free will.

Yeah, but that's free will. God knows our path. We don't know our path. God knows every possible path we'll take. It's up to us to choose which one to go down out of billions.

God cannot know our path if we have free will. The two concepts contradict one another. If God knows every path we're going to take, the entire universe has already been decided for us, making free will just an illusion. If we truly have free will, it is logically impossible for God to have a Divine plan.

The question was: Do humans have free will? You say that we do, but when anyone offers contradictions against free will, you claim that God predetermined everything and has a grand plan for everyone.

[Lovelife090994]

Free will is our perception of decisions that ultimately derive from cause and effect. I scratch my arm because I get an itch. I go downstairs for food because I get hungry. I feel happy when the sun comes out; the physiological processes of delight result from a release in endorphin due to a conditioned response to good weather.

But your good wishes mean nothing: God's plan is his own, right? You wishing me good health might contradict his own plan, and he can strike me down with internal bleeding. You can pray for me all you want, but it ultimately means nothing because God already decided what he's going to do with me.

Make up your mind: Is he a guardian/watcher, or a chess player? Does God interfere with our lives? There are two options:

1) God has predetermined everything and has a plan for every person, thus no free will.
2) We have free will: we can act and make decisions, and God cannot have an "ultimate plan" because it has not yet been decided because we all have free will.

God cannot know our path if we have free will. The two concepts contradict one another. If God knows every path we're going to take, the entire universe has already been decided for us, making free will just an illusion. If we truly have free will, it is logically impossible for God to have a Divine plan.

The question was: Do humans have free will? You say that we do, but when anyone offers
contradictions against free will, you claim that God predetermined everything and has a grand plan for everyone.

That's how God works. He works in mysterious ways to man. He knows our steps before we do. We just don't know. He doesn't tell us that we are take step A and that we must take it. We simply don't know all he thinks. This is where the freedom comes in. We have free will over ourselves and the Earth. God did predetermine things so now we have to determine what they may be. And if I wish you well then I wish you well. If I say "God bless you" I am saying how God will bless you. He doesn't strike us with pain.

[Horatio Nelson]

That's how God works. He works in mysterious ways to man. He knows our steps before we do. We just don't know. He doesn't tell us that we are take step A and that we must take it. We simply don't know all he thinks. This is where the freedom comes in. We have free will over ourselves and the Earth. God did predetermine things so now we have to determine what they may be. And if I wish you well then I wish you well. If I say "God bless you" I am saying how God will bless you. He doesn't strike us with pain.

I gotta agree with Matt, you are being quite contradictory. You have to stick with one thought or the other. Being on the fence about things is never a good place to be.

[Lovelife090994]

I gotta agree with Matt, you are being quite contradictory. You have to stick with one thought or the other. Being on the fence about things is never a good place to be.

How is that contradictory? God knows all. God gave man free will. Free will is the freedom to do as we please. Where's the fence? I'm just trying to avoid lions pouncing on me.

[Horatio Nelson]

How is that contradictory? God knows all. God gave man free will. Free will is the freedom to do as we please. Where's the fence? I'm just trying to avoid lions pouncing on me.

You say God knows all of our future choices and actions, yet we get to choose those actions out of free will? Which makes no sense. If God knows the future there is no free will.

What say you?

[Lovelife090994]

You say God knows all of our future choices and actions, yet we get to choose those actions out of free will? Which makes no sense. If God knows the future there is no free will.

What say you?

I say we are not God. Also there are multiple actions we could take. We could take the good road but many stray from it. Besides just because God knows our future doesn't make him a dictator. He knows us and our faults but won't force us to do what we don't want. We don't know our future so we live this life. We don't know or hold the face-up cards. Although so do we but facedown to us. We hold cards too. He holds the cards face to him. We simply live which is free. To be of God is to be in freedom. Those who serve the Lord are free. It's why anyone can be Christian. We are free to be no matter what we do or where we come from.

[Horatio Nelson]

I say we are not God. Also there are multiple actions we could take. We could take the good road but many stray from it. Besides just because God knows our future doesn't make him a dictator. He knows us and our faults but won't force us to do what we don't want. We don't know our future so we live this life. We don't know or hold the face-up cards. Although so do we but facedown to us. We hold cards too. He does. We simply live which is free. To be of God is to be in freedom. Those who serve the Lord are free. It's why anyone can be Christian. We are free to be no matter what we do or where we come from.

The question here is Determinism versus Free Will, after reading the above post, it seems you must think Determinism is true.

[Lovelife090994]

The question here is Determinism versus Free Will, after reading the above post, it seems you must think Determinism is true.

And determinism is what exactly? Is that a new legal term or a term from a debate class? It looked it up across five sites and still didn't get it.

[Irishperson15]

Like you said, free will isn't a real, physical thing. It's an idea invented by man. According to determinism, all the choices we make are our perceptions of free will. We make decisions, but due to the causality of nature, they're all influenced in a predictable manner, and thus the universe has already been determined the rest of time and space.



The underlined text is pre-destination and a form of determinism. The bold text is a form of free will. The two ideas contradict one another. God is either all knowing (and knows what choices you will make due to being omniscient) and thus determinism is your philosophical belief, OR God gave you free will and you the choices you will make are unknown to God because he cannot know or control your destiny (which is why it's called "free will").

I don't see how they contradict. We all have a fate and we get there through choice God pre-determined choices for us. But it is our freedom to choose which one we take. I clearly said that the choices he gives us will all lead to the same fate, thus showing he does control our destiny as it will always be the same no matter what.

[Left Now]

Can I answer this question as a Muslim too?

[Miserabilia]

And determinism is what exactly? Is that a new legal term or a term from a debate class? It looked it up across five sites and still didn't get it.

Determinism implies that our choices are made with cause and effect. Choices come from brain activity, which comes from cause and effect; in other words, time goes in a straight line, and every choice you make is predetermined because they are made in your brain with cause and effect.


I say we are not God. Also there are multiple actions we could take. We could take the good road but many stray from it. Besides just because God knows our future doesn't make him a dictator. He knows us and our faults but won't force us to do what we don't want. We don't know our future so we live this life. We don't know or hold the face-up cards. Although so do we but facedown to us. We hold cards too. He holds the cards face to him. We simply live which is free. To be of God is to be in freedom. Those who serve the Lord are free. It's why anyone can be Christian. We are free to be no matter what we do or where we come from.

If god knows all the choices we would make, determinism would be true by definition.


Can I answer this question as a Muslim too?

Sure :)

So, in that case, you agree with determinism or not?

Yes, I do.

[Left Now]

Well,according to the things which I know about Islamic view of free will and determinism,each person in this world will make his own future,and God will only help them to choose the right path,not to force them into it,so it means that it is up to you to make your own future and God will only try to help you to pick right choices in your life.

According to Abrahamic views,God has blown his own spirit into humans and so they have that power to "Think" and "Choose" the ways which they want to go through,but meanwhile,God can PREDICT(pay attention!PREDICT) what choices a person is going to make in their life according to the characteristics which that person has.

If those choices are going to be bad and harmful choices,then God will try his best to change that person's mind and to stop him from doing what he's planning to do,but because of God's own Determinism Philosophy,he won't intervene directly and will let that person to do the thing he wants to do.

[Miserabilia]

Well,according to the things which I know about Islamic view of free will and determinism,each person in this world will make his own future,and God will only help them to choose the right path,not to force them into it,so it means that it is up to you to make your own future and God will only try to help you to pick right choices in your life.

According to Abrahamic views,God has blown his own spirit into humans and so they have that power to "Think" and "Choose" the ways which they want to go through,but meanwhile,God can PREDICT(pay attention!PREDICT) what choices a person is going to make in their life according to the characteristics which that person has.

If those choices are going to be bad and harmful choices,then God will try his best to change that person's mind and to stop him from doing what he's planning to do,but because of God's own Determinism Philosophy,he won't intervene directly and will let that person to do the thing he wants to do.

Mmmm...
Interesting.
You are saying he gave humans free will yet he knows what they will do, but he will also interfere with them?
But the fact that he can predict the choices they will make means that determinism is true, which leaves to wonder what the point would be in an afterlife punishment.

[Camazotz]

That's how God works. He works in mysterious ways to man. He knows our steps before we do. We just don't know. He doesn't tell us that we are take step A and that we must take it. We simply don't know all he thinks. This is where the freedom comes in. We have free will over ourselves and the Earth. God did predetermine things so now we have to determine what they may be.

So rather than choosing a side, you're copping out with "God works in mysterious ways." We can't use logic to decide one position from the other? We have to just say "We're too unintelligent to answer this question,"?

And if I wish you well then I wish you well. If I say "God bless you" I am saying how God will bless you. He doesn't strike us with pain.

I know this isn't part of the debate, but tell that to the millions of people that suffer from poverty, disease, hunger, etc. The world is not pain-free. Plus, if you wish me well but God's plan is to give me a stroke, your prayer doesn't help because God already has a plan for me.

How is that contradictory? God knows all. God gave man free will. Free will is the freedom to do as we please. Where's the fence? I'm just trying to avoid lions pouncing on me.

Free will...

I say we are not God. Also there are multiple actions we could take. We could take the good road but many stray from it. Besides just because God knows our future doesn't make him a dictator. He knows us and our faults but won't force us to do what we don't want. We don't know our future so we live this life. We don't know or hold the face-up cards. Although so do we but facedown to us. We hold cards too. He holds the cards face to him. We simply live which is free. To be of God is to be in freedom. Those who serve the Lord are free. It's why anyone can be Christian. We are free to be no matter what we do or where we come from.

Underlined is determinism, bold is free will.

You are still contradicting yourself. If there are multiple options we could take, then we can freely choose any action. But if God knows everything that will happen, we're not really free, are we? Everything has already been decided, and any free choice is just an illusion.

Well,according to the things which I know about Islamic view of free will and determinism,each person in this world will make his own future,and God will only help them to choose the right path,not to force them into it,so it means that it is up to you to make your own future and God will only try to help you to pick right choices in your life.

According to Abrahamic views,God has blown his own spirit into humans and so they have that power to "Think" and "Choose" the ways which they want to go through,but meanwhile,God can PREDICT(pay attention!PREDICT) what choices a person is going to make in their life according to the characteristics which that person has.

If those choices are going to be bad and harmful choices,then God will try his best to change that person's mind and to stop him from doing what he's planning to do,but because of God's own Determinism Philosophy,he won't intervene directly and will let that person to do the thing he wants to do.

Mmmm...
Interesting.
You are saying he gave humans free will yet he knows what they will do, but he will also interfere with them?
But the fact that he can predict the choices they will make means that determinism is true, which leaves to wonder what the point would be in an afterlife punishment.

It sounds like you believe in soft determinism/compatibilism (http://philosophy.tamu.edu/~sdaniel/Notes/freedom1.html). As such, God cannot have a divine plan because man has free will, and he can only predict what we will do. Therefore, he cannot be all-knowing, correct?

[Living For Love]

Yes, I do.
So, if determinism is right, everything is already written down (what will happen and what won't happen). Therefore, we have no free will. So, that means we have no responsibility over our actions. And that means I can steal whatever I want, kill whoever I want, do whatever I want without any responsibility and consequences because I have no control over my actions. Right?

I guess I'm curious to know just as to how you can believe such a thing.
It's called faith, and you can't expect to understand it using rational methods.

[Camazotz]

So, if determinism is right, everything is already written down (what will happen and what won't happen). Therefore, we have no free will. So, that means we have no responsibility over our actions. And that means I can steal whatever I want, kill whoever I want, do whatever I want without any responsibility and consequences because I have no control over my actions. Right?

That's one of the arguments against determinism, and a fair point at that. However, I don't think that's the point though; you have control over your actions, it's just not "free will." Free will is just a concept that we perceive. Our actions are caused by external forces and actions. If you stole something, it was either...

a) to prove a point that free will exists (which was caused by this argument, and therefore it wasn't really free)
b) an uncontrollable desire to steal (like a kleptomaniac)

Now, you might argue that you have a controllable desire to steal and can choose to either steal or not to steal. My problem with determinism is that in either scenario, you can make the argument for one or the other after the fact, which is a hindsight bias.

[Miserabilia]

So, if determinism is right, everything is already written down (what will happen and what won't happen). Therefore, we have no free will. So, that means we have no responsibility over our actions. And that means I can steal whatever I want, kill whoever I want, do whatever I want without any responsibility and consequences because I have no control over my actions. Right?


It's called faith, and you can't expect to understand it using rational methods.

]So, if determinism is right, everything is already written down (what will happen and what won't happen).
Well ofcourse not literaly written down but yes.

. Therefore, we have no free will.
Yes.

So, that means we have no responsibility over our actions.
Sigh.
It's this argument again.
Ofcourse we do have responsibility.
We can go on with our daily lives and our normal morals and ideas on what is wright and wrong and punishment and feeling like we are totaly free all we want, if determinism is true.
It doesn't change anything.
If I choose to eat icecream, I am making a choice, and I made that choice with responsibility.
My thought process will work with cause and effect.

"Mmm I'm hungry -> is there food in the house -> yes there is icecream -> do I want icecream? yes -> is it smart for me right now to eat icecream? Well there's no problem with it -> I'll choose to eat icecream.

That's a conscious choice, and it works with cause and effect.

And that means I can steal whatever I want, kill whoever I want, do whatever I want without any responsibility and consequences because I have no control over my actions. Right?

No, as said that is not even close to what it means.
Determinism simply states that our brain works with the same rules of cause and effect as the rest of the universe.
You could do all of those things, but you'd choose to do so consciously; and even if that choice is predetermined, it's still your choice; a choice that comes from you as a person.

Then again, this argument is used against determinism all the time.
It's simply because we hate the feeling of not being free.
And it's a normal natural reaction.
People are scared of determinism.

[Horatio Nelson]

Well ofcourse not literaly written down but yes.


Yes.


Sigh.
It's this argument again.
Ofcourse we do have responsibility.
We can go on with our daily lives and our normal morals and ideas on what is wright and wrong and punishment and feeling like we are totaly free all we want, if determinism is true.
It doesn't change anything.
If I choose to eat icecream, I am making a choice, and I made that choice with responsibility.
My thought process will work with cause and effect.

"Mmm I'm hungry -> is there food in the house -> yes there is icecream -> do I want icecream? yes -> is it smart for me right now to eat icecream? Well there's no problem with it -> I'll choose to eat icecream.

That's a conscious choice, and it works with cause and effect.



No, as said that is not even close to what it means.
Determinism simply states that our brain works with the same rules of cause and effect as the rest of the universe.
You could do all of those things, but you'd choose to do so consciously; and even if that choice is predetermined, it's still your choice; a choice that comes from you as a person.

Then again, this argument is used against determinism all the time.
It's simply because we hate the feeling of not being free.
And it's a normal natural reaction.
People are scared of determinism.

Holy mother of biscuits. Someone finally understands.

[Miserabilia]

Holy mother of biscuits. Someone finally understands.

Haha thanks :)

[Living For Love]

Sigh.
It's this argument again.
Ofcourse we do have responsibility.

If we have responsibility, then the idea of an after-life punishment makes sense.


You could do all of those things, but you'd choose to do so consciously; and even if that choice is predetermined, it's still your choice; a choice that comes from you as a person.
It's predetermined, but it's still your choice!? How so?


Then again, this argument is used against determinism all the time.
It's simply because we hate the feeling of not being free.
And it's a normal natural reaction.
People are scared of determinism.
I am free, and I'm not scared of determinism. Whether it exists or not, whether it's true or not, it doesn't affect me at all, just like atheists aren't scared of hell.

[Lovelife090994]

So rather than choosing a side, you're copping out with "God works in mysterious ways." We can't use logic to decide one position from the other? We have to just say "We're too unintelligent to answer this question,"?



I know this isn't part of the debate, but tell that to the millions of people that suffer from poverty, disease, hunger, etc. The world is not pain-free. Plus, if you wish me well but God's plan is to give me a stroke, your prayer doesn't help because God already has a plan for me.



Free will...



Underlined is determinism, bold is free will.

You are still contradicting yourself. If there are multiple options we could take, then we can freely choose any action. But if God knows everything that will happen, we're not really free, are we? Everything has already been decided, and any free choice is just an illusion.





It sounds like you believe in soft determinism/compatibilism (http://philosophy.tamu.edu/~sdaniel/Notes/freedom1.html). As such, God cannot have a divine plan because man has free will, and he can only predict what we will do. Therefore, he cannot be all-knowing, correct?

Do you want me to lie? God does work in mysterious ways. He transcends time and space. He gives man choices but will intervene. God is not the reason why someone is in poverty. It is the duty of the well enabled to help others. God left Earth to man which is why it is so messed up. We are no longer pure.

[Camazotz]

Do you want me to lie? God does work in mysterious ways. He transcends time and space. He gives man choices but will intervene. God is not the reason why someone is in poverty. It is the duty of the well enabled to help others. God left Earth to man which is why it is so messed up. We are no longer pure.

God is able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

So I take it by this post that your final conclusion is that your faith is blinding you from logical reasoning and therefore can't come to a logical conclusion. If you're okay with believing in contradicting ideas, then alright.

[Lovelife090994]

God is able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

So I take it by this post that your final conclusion is that your faith is blinding you from logical reasoning and therefore can't come to a logical conclusion. If you're okay with believing in contradicting ideas, then alright.

Hey, that was insulting and totally uncouth. God gave the Earth to man. Which means man is free to do as we wish. God intervenes every day to help souls not reached by others. Poverty is a fact of life but even God can help with that.

[Left Now]

Mmmm...
Interesting.
You are saying he gave humans free will yet he knows what they will do, but he will also interfere with them?
But the fact that he can predict the choices they will make means that determinism is true, which leaves to wonder what the point would be in an afterlife punishment.

As I said he can predict the choices,but it doesn't mean that our fates were determined even before we were born.We are those who make choices and God will try his best to help humans to make better choices through ways like Inspiration and Afflatus.But sometimes humans will abandon their Gods to contact with them so God cannot guide them to right choices anymore.That punishment is in fact for abandoning the God and according to how strong that abandoning is,they will be punished in afterlife.By the way,maybe they would taste that punishment in this world itself and then will be forgiven,but only if they be regretful,really regretful,for what they've done.

However,there is still another way too,REPENTANCE!I a person who has committed sins and has done evil deeds in their life,can repent and dodge a great part of afterlife or lifetime punishment,but only and only if he/she is truly regretful for what he/she has done,which means he/she is letting God to contact with them once again and stop abandoning him by evil acts and evil thoughts.In this case,he/she will only be punished only to be cleaned from all signs of disobedience and abandoning the God and then he/she will be forgiven and permitted to enter heaven in afterlife.

However,there is still other things about suffering in afterlife in Islam which you maybe interested to hear them,feel free to PM me if you like to know them.

[CharlieHorse]

It's called faith, and you can't expect to understand it using rational methods.

I think I understand it well. It's belief in idea and concept without any physical proof. In the case of religion, a result of mental conditioning and immersion as a child. Basically belief because it's what you've been taught before anything else, and believing because you want to.

[Miserabilia]

If we have responsibility, then the idea of an after-life punishment makes sense.


It's predetermined, but it's still your choice!? How so?


I am free, and I'm not scared of determinism. Whether it exists or not, whether it's true or not, it doesn't affect me at all, just like atheists aren't scared of hell.

If we have responsibility, then the idea of an after-life punishment makes sense.

No, only punishment in the real physical world would make sense, because that's where they actualy have a point; they try to change the mind of the person that did something wrong and warn others of doing the same.
There is no actual point in an after life punishment.

It's predetermined, but it's still your choice!? How so?

Because if we stop calling these things choices and start thinking that everything is predetermined anyway, we'll all go completely insane.
The things we concider as free will and free choices do exist, but they also rely on cause and effect like the rest of the universe. (Untill proven otherwise).
Like I said, we do make choices; but not randomly; they rely on a thought chain of events which is also a form of cause and effect.
(The icecream example)







As I said he can predict the choices,but it doesn't mean that our fates were determined even before we were born.We are those who make choices and God will try his best to help humans to make better choices through ways like Inspiration and Afflatus. *irrelevant part removed*


However,there is still other things about suffering in afterlife in Islam which you maybe interested to hear them,feel free to PM me if you like to know them.

As I said he can predict the choices,but it doesn't mean that our fates were determined even before we were born.

Yes it does.
There are two options;

- God is all knowing
- God is not all knowing

If god is all knowing he knows everything that will happen, and therefore we can not have independent free will.
If he is NOT all knowing, well then free will is something in a way more powerful than god, which kind of contradicts what is said about god.

However,there is still other things about suffering in afterlife in Islam which you maybe interested to hear them,feel free to PM me if you like to know them.

Well I do wonder, as I said in the OP; if your god all knowing or not?
Because both situations cause a problem with free will and determinism.

[darthearth]

He took away His all-knowingness (in a sense, really it is more taking away control) to give us free will. But at the same time, He does know our choices, brought about through our free will, because He exists outside of our timeline. It's like when we know history, we know the choices people made but in no way does this imply that they must have been predetermined, we just know the result. I'm surprised how many in this thread are trying to say that just because choices are known it necessarily implies determinism, this is completely false.

Here is a question: does omniscience necessitate being able to predict anything? If one is omniscient one doesn't need to predict, everything is already known. Nor did the omniscient one have to completely control the process, but knows the result. Can it be that the concepts "control" and "knowledge" are being confused here? Can one not completely control something, yet know the something completely? On the one hand, God couldn't have known what it was going to be (lack of complete control), but on the other hand, God knows what is (knows the result of the process). If the first invalidates omniscience to you fine, then God is not omniscient, but to me the latter preserves omniscience and is what I mean when I accept God as omniscient in the face of free will.

I know it is hard for us to understand, but God is in the transcendent domain. I can't say that I completely understand it, but I have a good enough idea to easily accept the fudge factor in terms of the transcendence.

[Left Now]

No, only punishment in the real physical world would make sense, because that's where they actualy have a point; they try to change the mind of the person that did something wrong and warn others of doing the same.
There is no actual point in an after life punishment.



Because if we stop calling these things choices and start thinking that everything is predetermined anyway, we'll all go completely insane.
The things we concider as free will and free choices do exist, but they also rely on cause and effect like the rest of the universe. (Untill proven otherwise).
Like I said, we do make choices; but not randomly; they rely on a thought chain of events which is also a form of cause and effect.
(The icecream example)











Yes it does.
There are two options;

- God is all knowing
- God is not all knowing

If god is all knowing he knows everything that will happen, and therefore we can not have independent free will.
If he is NOT all knowing, well then free will is something in a way more powerful than god, which kind of contradicts what is said about god.



Well I do wonder, as I said in the OP; if your god all knowing or not?
Because both situations cause a problem with free will and determinism.

As I said once,according to Abrahamic beliefs God blew his own spirit into the body of mankind,and granted them "Think and Choose" power which you call it Free Will;so it may equal the power of God but it is still not stronger than it.

Now let's talk this about "God" and "All Knowing".God knows everything,but personally I believe he knows all those things which exist in this world,not the things which hasn't happened yet(except regular deaths and births which are related to God himself),meanwhile he can predict;And I have to remind that PREDICT is different from FORESEEING.No one in this world can foresee,but predicting is something which nearly anyone can do according to evidences.

As God is eternal source of knowing,his predicting is more accurate than anyone else's,but it still doesn't mean that he certainly knows what's going to happen to you in future(the all-knowing adjective which we use for God is because he knows somethings which no other creatures know or are able to know,but I believe he is only knower of unknowns which right now exist in this or the other world).So Free Will doesn't mean that he is not unknowing.

[Living For Love]

I think I understand it well. It's belief in idea and concept without any physical proof. In the case of religion, a result of mental conditioning and immersion as a child. Basically belief because it's what you've been taught before anything else, and believing because you want to.

Yup, I believe it because it makes sense to me and because I want to. No one forced me to believe in anything, that's not even ethically right.

[Miserabilia]

As I said once,according to Abrahamic beliefs God blew his own spirit into the body of mankind,and granted them "Think and Choose" power which you call it Free Will; so it may equal the power of God but it is still not stronger than it.

Now let's talk this about "God" and "All Knowing".God knows everything,but personally I believe he knows all those things which exist in this world,not the things which hasn't happened yet(except regular deaths and births which are related to God himself),meanwhile he can predict;And I have to remind that PREDICT is different from FORESEEING.No one in this world can foresee,but predicting is something which nearly anyone can do according to evidences.

As God is eternal source of knowing,his predicting is more accurate than anyone else's,but it still doesn't mean that he certainly knows what's going to happen to you in future(the all-knowing adjective which we use for God is because he knows somethings which no other creatures know or are able to know,but I believe he is only knower of unknowns which right now exist in this or the other world).So Free Will doesn't mean that he is not unknowing.

so it may equal the power of God but it is still not stronger than it.

Well look at it this way; if it is less powerful, determinism must be true because then god can predict all the actions of human will.
If it is more powerful, free will definettly exists and god can not predict what human choices will be.
So let's say hypotheticaly it is equaly powerful.
What would this mean?
That's just vague; there's not really any option in between these two things.

Now let's talk this about "God" and "All Knowing".God knows everything,but personally I believe he knows all those things which exist in this world,not the things which hasn't happened yet(except regular deaths and births which are related to God himself),

Human Death and birth are compltely dependent on human choices and therefore, free will.

And I have to remind that PREDICT is different from FORESEEING.No one in this world can foresee,but predicting is something which nearly anyone can do according to evidences.

Do you mean to say that god only has a vague idea of what will happen, but the outcome is not sure? Because that's what you are making it sound like, and that would mean that he is in fact not all knowing.
If he would be all knowing he could see all the choices people are making at this moment and therefore the future position of every thing.

the all-knowing adjective which we use for God is because he knows somethings which no other creatures know or are able to know,but I believe he is only knower of unknowns which right now exist in this or the other world

Theoreticaly, if one would know the position of every particle and every speed and probablity etc, they could predict the future of the whole universe. (Granted that determinism is true)


He took away His all-knowingness (in a sense, really it is more taking away control) to give us free will. But at the same time, He does know our choices, brought about through our free will, because He exists outside of our timeline. It's like when we know history, we know the choices people made but in no way does this imply that they must have been predetermined, we just know the result. I'm surprised how many in this thread are trying to say that just because choices are known it necessarily implies determinism, this is completely false.

Here is a question: does omniscience necessitate being able to predict anything? If one is omniscient one doesn't need to predict, everything is already known. Nor did the omniscient one have to completely control the process, but knows the result. Can it be that the concepts "control" and "knowledge" are being confused here? Can one not completely control something, yet know the something completely? On the one hand, God couldn't have known what it was going to be (lack of complete control), but on the other hand, God knows what is (knows the result of the process). If the first invalidates omniscience to you fine, then God is not omniscient, but to me the latter preserves omniscience and is what I mean when I accept God as omniscient in the face of free will.

I know it is hard for us to understand, but God is in the transcendent domain. I can't say that I completely understand it, but I have a good enough idea to easily accept the fudge factor in terms of the transcendence.

He took away His all-knowingness (in a sense, really it is more taking away control) to give us free will. But at the same time, He does know our choices, brought about through our free will, because He exists outside of our timeline. It's like when we know history, we know the choices people made but in no way does this imply that they must have been predetermined, we just know the result.

If god is looking at our timelines from outside of time, and is seeing the choices people make, made and will ever made, then those choices are by definition predetermined and fixed.
If god sees every choice I will make tomorow, determinism must be true, because god is all knowing.
So unless you are implying that god knows everything but is also wrong about things, determinism must simply be true by logic.

I'm surprised how many in this thread are trying to say that just because choices are known it necessarily implies determinism, this is completely false.

This is completely true.
If a future choice is known to happen, if every future choice is known, determinism MUST be true, because there is no way for someone to make a choice outside of the known choices; therefore everything is predetermined.

Here is a question: does omniscience necessitate being able to predict anything? If one is omniscient one doesn't need to predict, everything is already known.

Exactly, so it already knows every choice everyone will ever make, right?
Which must in turn mean that determinism is true for said reasons.

Can one not completely control something, yet know the something completely? On the one hand, God couldn't have known what it was going to be (lack of complete control), but on the other hand, God knows what is (knows the result of the process). If the first invalidates omniscience to you fine, then God is not omniscient, but to me the latter preserves omniscience and is what I mean when I accept God as omniscient in the face of free will.

That made no sense; I'm not saying god controlls everything.
But if god has knowledge like a timeline, where every single event that ever happened and will happen is on, including every choice everyone ever makes, the outcomes are fixed, simply because he couldn't have that accurate timelines if the outcomes weren't fixed.

[darthearth]

......
Exactly, so it already knows every choice everyone will ever make, right?
Which must in turn mean that determinism is true for said reasons.
......


cheessee (and everyone else with this misconception): a being outside of our timeline knowing the choices we have made is just like history is to us. You don't see this? It's hard for me to understand why you don't see this.

Please comment on the following specifically: We know George Washington was the first president of the United States, just because we know this DOES NOT MEAN determinism is true!

Are you saying that just because we know Georg Washington was the first president, determinism is true?! If you are, I think that's absurd. If you're not there is a BIG miscommunication.

[Miserabilia]

cheessee (and everyone else with this misconception): a being outside of our timeline knowing the choices we have made is just like history is to us. You don't see this? It's hard for me to understand why you don't see this.

Please comment on the following specifically: We know George Washington was the first president of the United States, just because we know this DOES NOT MEAN determinism is true!

Are you saying that just because we know Georg Washington was the first president, determinism is true?! If you are, I think that's absurd. If you're not there is a BIG miscommunication.

cheessee (and everyone else with this misconception): a being outside of our timeline knowing the choices we have made is just like history is to us. You don't see this? It's hard for me to understand why you don't see this.

I don't see what that sentence even means.
That's incredibly vague.
Could you please explain what you mean with
" a being outside of our timeline knowing the choices we have made is just like history is to us."

We know George Washington was the first president of the United States, just because we know this DOES NOT MEAN determinism is true!

No, because that has absolutely nothing to do with determinism.
All that tells us is that he was the first president.
So I aggree with ya there

Are you saying that just because we know Georg Washington was the first president, determinism is true?!

lolno.

You see, you're placing up this strawman of what I said about determinism. Just because we know something of the past, that doesn't mean that determinism is true.
I aggree.
But look at the definition of determinism.

"Determinism is the philosophical movement that for every event, including human action, exist conditions that could cause no other event. "

The moment an all knowing being knows EVERYTHING that ever happened, then all the events on that timeline are fixed.
There could be no other event caused; if there could, that being would see it on his timeline.

An all knowing all seeing god by definition means determinism is true.

[darthearth]

I don't see what that sentence even means.
That's incredibly vague.
Could you please explain what you mean with
" a being outside of our timeline knowing the choices we have made is just like history is to us."




The moment an all knowing being knows EVERYTHING that ever happened, then all the events on that timeline are fixed.
There could be no other event caused; if there could, that being would see it on his timeline.

An all knowing all seeing god by definition means determinism is true.


Ok, I think I might understand the miscommunication. To God, the entire cosmos, from its beginning to its ultimate end has already happened. Just like history has already happened to us. The entire cosmos from beginning to end is like a 4d space-time block on God's table. God can see anywhere within the block, as thus know all about it. But God chose not to control how the block would turn out because he wished to give us free will. Does that clear it up?

[Miserabilia]

Ok, I think I might understand the miscommunication. To God, the entire cosmos, from its beginning to its ultimate end has already happened. Just like history has already happened to us. The entire cosmos from beginning to end is like a 4d space-time block on God's table. God can see anywhere within the block, as thus know all about it. But God chose not to control how the block would turn out because he wished to give us free will. Does that clear it up?

No, not really.

To God, the entire cosmos, from its beginning to its ultimate end has already happened.

That would mean that that includes every man made choice ever. Which means determinism is true.

[Camazotz]

Ok, I think I might understand the miscommunication. To God, the entire cosmos, from its beginning to its ultimate end has already happened. Just like history has already happened to us. The entire cosmos from beginning to end is like a 4d space-time block on God's table. God can see anywhere within the block, as thus know all about it. But God chose not to control how the block would turn out because he wished to give us free will. Does that clear it up?

So God transcends time, and our present and future are, to him, the past? In other words, every event in our universe has occurred to God?

So basically everything has already been determined?

[darthearth]

No, not really.


That would mean that that includes every man made choice ever. Which means determinism is true.

No, it doesn't. Again, it is the same as us knowing about mankind's history. Just because we know mankind's history does not mean the people of the past did not have free will. In fact, knowing mankind's history does not imply either free will or determinism, you said as much in your previous comment. Both are compatible with a transcendent concept of God.


So God transcends time, and our present and future are, to him, the past? In other words, every event in our universe has occurred to God?

So basically everything has already been determined?

Yes, every event in the universe has already occurred to God. This is because God transcends our time. It has been determined in the sense that our future free will choices are known to Him (we ourselves determined the course of pertinent things in the cosmos by using our free will, we controlled how the 4d block would turn out), just like we ourselves know the choices that were made by other humans in human history. The people in history had free will, but we know how their free will was exercised, because it is within our recorded past. But all this says, like I stated above, is that both free will and determinism are compatible with traditional concepts of a monotheistic God. There is no necessary contradiction that I see.

So, to answer the OP, I see no problem to solve. I believe in free will, and see nothing incompatible in my conception of God with this. However, if one assumes determinism is true, then there are legitimate questions about the reason for any punishment experienced by the unfortunate souls that got the raw deal.

[Miserabilia]

No, it doesn't. Again, it is the same as us knowing about mankind's history. Just because we know mankind's history does not mean the people of the past did not have free will. In fact, knowing mankind's history does not imply either free will or determinism, you said as much in your previous comment. Both are compatible with a transcendent concept of God.




Yes, every event in the universe has already occurred to God. This is because God transcends our time. It has been determined in the sense that our future free will choices are known to Him (we ourselves determined the course of pertinent things in the cosmos by using our free will, we controlled how the 4d block would turn out), just like we ourselves know the choices that were made by other humans in human history. The people in history had free will, but we know how their free will was exercised, because it is within our recorded past. But all this says, like I stated above, is that both free will and determinism are compatible with traditional concepts of a monotheistic God. There is no necessary contradiction that I see.

So, to answer the OP, I see no problem to solve. I believe in free will, and see nothing incompatible in my conception of God with this. However, if one assumes determinism is true, then there are legitimate questions about the reason for any punishment experienced by the unfortunate souls that got the raw deal.

Again, it is the same as us knowing about mankind's history. Just because we know mankind's history does not mean the people of the past did not have free will.

That's because it's complteley unrelated.
God however, knows everything that is was and will be.
That's simply impossible if free will exists.

Yes, every event in the universe has already occurred to God. This is because God transcends our time.

Therefore determinism must be true; because that means that every event can be placed on a timeline, and therefore every event on that timelines is fixed and must happen that way at that time.


So, to answer the OP, I see no problem to solve. I believe in free will, and see nothing incompatible in my conception of God with this. However, if one assumes determinism is true, then there are legitimate questions about the reason for any punishment experienced by the unfortunate souls that got the raw deal.

Everything you explained about god still pretty much points to a deterministic universe.

[CharlieHorse]

Yup, I believe it because it makes sense to me and because I want to. No one forced me to believe in anything, that's not even ethically right.

Perhaps nobody forced you into the belief, but consider how as a child, growing up with them, you're kind of taught to believe them against your will.
Although a child doesn't have the ability to really pursue it's own will when it comes to complex ideologies such as religion.

[Lovelife090994]

Perhaps nobody forced you into the belief, but consider how as a child, growing up with them, you're kind of taught to believe them against your will.
Although a child doesn't have the ability to really pursue it's own will when it comes to complex ideologies such as religion.

Do you honestly think that every religious person is religious from upbringing? Many become religious on their own and it is up to you. Me, as a Christian I know and love the Lord, no one forced me to him. If a religious family wants to raise their child with their upbringing then they are passing what they know. And many children understand and love their faith. You'd be surprised how spiritual some kids are. It almost takes the pure heart of a kid to truly understand God.

[Miserabilia]

Do you honestly think that every religious person is religious from upbringing? Many become religious on their own and it is up to you. Me, as a Christian I know and love the Lord, no one forced me to him. If a religious family wants to raise their child with their upbringing then they are passing what they know. And many children understand and love their faith. You'd be surprised how spiritual some kids are. It almost takes the pure heart of a kid to truly understand God.

Do you honestly think that every religious person is religious from upbringing? Many become religious on their own and it is up to you.

"many".
Yes, and "many" people have extra body parts but it's not something we usualy think of in the general population.
The thing is that most religious people come from a religious household.
I can't find the exact statistics but it was more than 60% I think.

Me, as a Christian I know and love the Lord, no one forced me to him.

Were you raised christian?
If you were, that is (indirectly) forcing someone into your beleif; a small child's mind is bendable in every possible way, you could theoreticaly teach them that the world is flat and that zeus makes thunder, tell them it's the truth enough and they'll grow up beleiving it.
THere's not much of a conscious choice when it's an ideology you carry with you from pretty much birth.

And many children understand and love their faith. You'd be surprised how spiritual some kids are. It almost takes the pure heart of a kid to truly understand God.

I'm not surprised, in fact I know pretty much all kids have imaginairy friends.

Now let's get back on topic;
are you a determinist or do you beleive in free will?
It's still unclear to me.
Could you pick just one of those two options?

[Were]

God can predict the choices people will make and He does not make choices for people because He gives us free will to live our lives the way we want either to do good or bad and our choices determine where we will spend eternity

[CharlieHorse]

Do you honestly think that every religious person is religious from upbringing? Many become religious on their own and it is up to you. Me, as a Christian I know and love the Lord, no one forced me to him. If a religious family wants to raise their child with their upbringing then they are passing what they know. And many children understand and love their faith. You'd be surprised how spiritual some kids are. It almost takes the pure heart of a kid to truly understand God.

Did I honestly say "every religious person"? No, I didn't.

I guess you're right. It's not really forced if you blindly accept it as fact with faith.

Of course it depends on the situation.
Have you ever really considered why there are so many religions, and why there are so many people that believe different things than you? Have you ever thought that maybe your religion is no more credible than Greek mythology? Have you ever thought that maybe religion in its entirety was just a big man-made story meant to make community and morals common for a people?

I invite you to question, reason, and open your mind to ideas.


Lol where has this conversation gone? :P

fuck that, lets talk about free will.

Read this, it's kinda neat: Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will)
I generally don't believe there is such a thing as free will because our brains are basically wired to consciously respond to things in certain ways, which is all of our reasoning and actions. Although we can recognize that our actions appear to be from our own doing, it is actually our consciousness watching and thinking the brain is working for it.

[Miserabilia]

God can predict the choices people will make and He does not make choices for people because He gives us free will to live our lives the way we want either to do good or bad and our choices determine where we will spend eternity

That's contradictory.
If god knows every choice you will ever make, then you are destined to make those choices.
Thus that would mean determinism is true, and not free will.

[Vlerchan]

God can see anywhere within the block, as thus know all about it. But God chose not to control how the block would turn out because he wished to give us free will.
I thought god guided evolution?

[Capto]

That's contradictory.
If god knows every choice you will ever make, then you are destined to make those choices.
Thus that would mean determinism is true, and not free will.

Outcome can be predicted prior to the derivation or development of the outcome.

Is what the point the prior poster was attempting to make.

[Bleid]

If god is all knowing he knows everything that will happen, and therefore we can not have independent free will.

Not necessarily.

What makes you believe that simply because a deity knows your decisions that therefore your decisions cannot be of your own free will?

[Miserabilia]

Not necessarily.

What makes you believe that simply because a deity knows your decisions that therefore your decisions cannot be of your own free will?

I'm saying that if a deity knows every future decision, then free will itself can not exist, by definition.
If a deity knows every single event that will ever happen, determinism must be true.
If free will were to exist, there would be no such thing as knowing the exact future choice of someone.

God can predict the choices people will make and He does not make choices for people because He gives us free will to live our lives the way we want either to do good or bad and our choices determine where we will spend eternity

Outcome can be predicted prior to the derivation or development of the outcome.

Is what the point the prior poster was attempting to make.

I quoted his post above.
I don't think that was what he was trying to say.
Literal quote

God can predict the choices people will make

He gives us free will

contradictory

[Capto]

contradictory

lolwut

[Miserabilia]

lolwut

wutlolwut???
Wut is there to lolwut at

[Capto]

wutlolwut???
Wut is there to lolwut at

Calling that contradictory.

[Miserabilia]

Calling that contradictory.

It is.
If all choices can be accuratly and with certainty be predicted, free will does not exist.

[Lovelife090994]

It is.
If all choices can be accuratly and with certainty be predicted, free will does not exist.

No. We are not God. He's the all-knowing one, not us. He didn't force you to type did he? That's your own free will. Is he forcing you to him? No, even under God we can believe whatever we wish. He won't punish those simply for their beliefs. In fact it doesn't matter that, it matters more on your heart which is affected by you. God can be with you all you want but unless you are sincere you can still have issues.

[Miserabilia]

No. We are not God. He's the all-knowing one, not us. He didn't force you to type did he? That's your own free will. Is he forcing you to him? No, even under God we can believe whatever we wish. He won't punish those simply for their beliefs. In fact it doesn't matter that, it matters more on your heart which is affected by you. God can be with you all you want but unless you are sincere you can still have issues.

No. We are not God. He's the all-knowing one, not us. He didn't force you to type did he? That's your own free will. Is he forcing you to him?

Im NOT and I repeat I'm not not NOT NOT and NEVER saying that god is controlling all our choices.
That is not what I mean, not what I implied, and completely different from my original point.

Now actualy try to see what I mean here and read this:
Determinism means that every event is a result of a previous event, and that therefore, theoreticaly, the entire course of everything in the universe can be exactly predicted, INCLUDING HUMAN CHOICE.
Free will means that choices made by humans are NOT dependent on previous events, and that it is therefore IMPOSSIBLE to predict a future choice exactly.
Determinism looks at the universe as a straight line from start to end; cause and effect and cause and effect, etc.
Free will sees the universe as a branching tree of total unpredictable choices; I could randomly scream and dance right now, and it would be completely unpredictable.

The moment that all future choices can be accuratly predicted, free will CAN and DOES not exist, by definition;
if the entire universe can be placed on a line with all events and choices on it, that is determinism.
I can't put it any more simply.
I"m hoping you understand now,
and also let's get back on the original topic;

if either free will or determinism exist,
what is the answer to the problems this causes morally with afterlife or the power of god?

[Were]

I'm saying that if a deity knows every future decision, then free will itself can not exist, by definition.
If a deity knows every single event that will ever happen, determinism must be true.
If free will were to exist, there would be no such thing as knowing the exact future choice of someone.





I quoted his post above.
I don't think that was what h


contradictory


God knows all,there is nothing impossible for God and He knows all our thoughts,He even knew us before we were even knit in our mothers' wombs but He has given us free will to choose how to live our lives and people chose to live evil lives,that's why He sent His only son JESUS CHRIST to die for ours sins,to save us,to pay the price for our sins,so that we could change and live our lives righteously

[Music Lover]

I solve the problem with the help of the following example:

Suppose you and your best friend are hanging in the city. You are really close and you know each other as well as two human beings possibly can. A really cool motorbike passes in front of your eyes and you think to yourself "He will probably exclaim 'Shit look at that ride!'" If the situation has happened often happened before, you can not only predict what he is going to say, but HOW he's going to say it.

Look at the example above. Your friend has just exercised free will, and you have exercised some sort of determinism.
YOU KNEW EXACTLY what he will say, but that didn't take away his free will. In theory he didn't have to say anything.

Now of course there are limitations to this, because human beings cannot possibly know each other well enough to the point that they can definitely in 100% of the cases know the others thoughts. So there is a margin of error.

But if you think God as having perfect knowledge on us as human beings, he knows for sure what decisions we will or won't make. So He does not have a margin of error, contrary to humans, because of perfect information.

So regarding the way of the one line and the tree of infinite branches:
There is a tree with infinite branches, but God knows which one is the one that will happen.


So in short, I think I lean over more to determinism than to free will. I actually don't think free will in its perfect form does not exist. I believe it exists partially.

[Miserabilia]

God knows all,there is nothing impossible for God and He knows all our thoughts,He even knew us before we were even knit in our mothers' wombs but He has given us free will to choose how to live our lives and people chose to live evil lives,that's why He sent His only son JESUS CHRIST to die for ours sins,to save us,to pay the price for our sins,so that we could change and live our lives righteously

God knows all,there is nothing impossible for God and He knows all our thoughts,He even knew us before we were even knit in our mothers' wombs but

Determinism.

He has given us free will

Free willl.

You're only being more contradicting.
I say again;
free will CAN NOT exist if god knows all future choices.


I solve the problem with the help of the following example:

Suppose you and your best friend are hanging in the city. You are really close and you know each other as well as two human beings possibly can. A really cool motorbike passes in front of your eyes and you think to yourself "He will probably exclaim 'Shit look at that ride!'" If the situation has happened often happened before, you can not only predict what he is going to say, but HOW he's going to say it.

Look at the example above. Your friend has just exercised free will, and you have exercised some sort of determinism.
YOU KNEW EXACTLY what he will say, but that didn't take away his free will. In theory he didn't have to say anything.

Now of course there are limitations to this, because human beings cannot possibly know each other well enough to the point that they can definitely in 100% of the cases know the others thoughts. So there is a margin of error.

But if you think God as having perfect knowledge on us as human beings, he knows for sure what decisions we will or won't make. So He does not have a margin of error, contrary to humans, because of perfect information.

So regarding the way of the one line and the tree of infinite branches:
There is a tree with infinite branches, but God knows which one is the one that will happen.


So in short, I think I lean over more to determinism than to free will. I actually don't think free will in its perfect form does not exist. I believe it exists partially.

Look at the example above. Your friend has just exercised free will, and you have exercised some sort of determinism.

No. Determinism is not excerciced; you can't bring it to a small scale example like this, because this is not determinism and fee will;
this is a small every day prediction.

But if you think God as having perfect knowledge on us as human beings, he knows for sure what decisions we will or won't make. So He does not have a margin of error, contrary to humans, because of perfect information.

Then determinism MUST be true.
I don't think I can explain that further.
Perfect information of every choice ever automaticaly makes determinism true.


So regarding the way of the one line and the tree of infinite branches:
There is a tree with infinite branches, but God knows which one is the one that will happen.

THen there is no line of infinite branches.
I can draw a whole tree but if I draw over one continuis line with a different colour, that's still just one line; no matter how many possible other outcomes there were, knowing a path of all outcomes means there is only one outcomes; the outcome that is known with certainty.

[darthearth]

I thought god guided evolution?

Correct thought :yes:, but perhaps you can elaborate on what this has to do with my comments? My comments pertain to choices people make (free will or deterministic).

Cheesee, can you please explain what difference you see between humans knowing human history and God knowing cosmic history (from big bang to ultimate end as the end of the cosmos has already happened (to God) in my argument)? Thanks.

[Vlerchan]

Correct thought :yes:, but perhaps you can elaborate on what this has to do with my comments? My comments pertain to choices people make (free will or deterministic).
In a great number of cases our action can be said to be biologically-determined: regardless of the free will I might posses, I can't fly because my biology determines I can't fly. If god defines my biology, and thus defines my range of actions or capabilities, then it can be agreed that there is deterministic elements to gods work, right? If we take it that god crafts each human-being individually, and take evolution in a micro sense as opposed to a macro sense, we're left to consider an even more deterministic universe.

[Bleid]

I'm saying that if a deity knows every future decision, then free will itself can not exist, by definition.
If a deity knows every single event that will ever happen, determinism must be true.
If free will were to exist, there would be no such thing as knowing the exact future choice of someone.

This is unknown to be true.

You're presupposing you know something about how an all-powerful deity would work and function.

[Miserabilia]

This is unknown to be true.

You're presupposing you know something about how an all-powerful deity would work and function.

What do you mean?
I'm assuming hypotheticaly that there is a god that knows everything that has happened as if it's history; this is the way it was descibed here, so I'm going with that.
Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.

Correct thought :yes:, but perhaps you can elaborate on what this has to do with my comments? My comments pertain to choices people make (free will or deterministic).

Cheesee, can you please explain what difference you see between humans knowing human history and God knowing cosmic history (from big bang to ultimate end as the end of the cosmos has already happened (to God) in my argument)? Thanks.

Cheesee, can you please explain what difference you see between humans knowing human history

That's things that have happened, and all we know is that they happened; we do not know if they happened through a deterministic universe or through fre will.

God knowing cosmic history (from big bang to ultimate end as the end of the cosmos has already happened (to God)

That would mean he didn't just know the things that happened; he would know every cause and effect and every possible interaction that occured.
For example, in history, we see that an emporer wanted to conquer something, we don't however see what made him do this exactly; the things that went on inside his head.
The moment a being were to know everything from start to end, that would include every reasoning and cause behind every choice, which would mean determinism must be true, simply because that being would know how a choice is made; and therefore free will can not exist.
For example;
A god sees everything that ever happened from start to end,
including a day where I decide to eat peanut butter, using a choice.
Let's assume that choice is free will, and that the event is therefore independent of the situation.
This would mean that every possible outcome could occur; I could also choose NOT to eat peanut butter.
Now let's look at it from the god's point of view.
The god sees at a certain point in spacetime me eating peanut butter.
What does that mean? That I chose to eat peanut butter.
But... I had free will;
so I am free to do something outside of the given situation (the universe);
I am also NOT eating peanut butter, or eathing different food instead? Right? Because my will is free and independent?
So, assuming free will exists, I could have also chose to do one of those things.
Let's ask god. Did I?
No, I ate peanut butter.
My eating of peanut butter is placed on the history book line that god sees the entire universe as.
There is no ofbranching of me doing anything else, just me eating peanut butter.
But wait a minute... That would mean that my choice is not independent of the situation;
the event of me eating peanut butter is already placed on that timeles timeline of god.
So my choice if fixed; if the being only sees me making one choice (eating peanut butter),
that choice is fixed; the fixed outcome.
It's...
Predetermined.
It's determinism

[Bleid]

What do you mean?
I'm assuming hypotheticaly that there is a god that knows everything that has happened as if it's history; this is the way it was descibed here, so I'm going with that.
Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.

What I mean is:

How are we certain that a God knowing what we are going to do means that what we are going to do is determined before it occurs?

This would seem to imply that you know something about how this God goes about knowing what you are going to do, wouldn't it?

[Miserabilia]

What I mean is:

How are we certain that a God knowing what we are going to do means that what we are going to do is determined before it occurs?

This would seem to imply that you know something about how this God goes about knowing what you are going to do, wouldn't it?

No.
As I've explained before, (reread one of my earlier posts I did a whole thing on it),
a god knowing everything that will ever happen means deteterminism is true BY DEFINITION.
Even if the only thing I know of that god is that he knows everything that will ever happen, any other quality of him or the universe is irrelevant to whether determinism is true or not, because it WOULD be true by definition.
I can try to explain why this is so again, if you want.

[Harry Smith]

No, even under God we can believe whatever we wish.

On the other hand

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

[Lovelife090994]

On the other hand

And yet Christians converse with non-Christians everyday. As Christians we can converse with whoever and the world but we mustn't align to the world. You do realize that God is open to all, right? We just aren't supposed to be around people who are bad influence. Even in real life when you aren't Christian you must watch your company. No use being where you aren't wanted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2prEoATH8

[Miserabilia]

And yet Christians converse with non-Christians everyday. As Christians we can converse with whoever and the world but we mustn't align to the world. You do realize that God is open to all, right? We just aren't supposed to be around people who are bad influence. Even in real life when you aren't Christian you must watch your company. No use being where you aren't wanted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2prEoATH8

Mind the irelevance of this to this discussion, I am going to respond to this anyway with a friendly reminder to get back on topic afterwards ;)

You do realize that God is open to all, right?

That is your interpertation; yet your god isn't open to all according to the bible; not open to "sinners" including homosexuals; or do you choose to ignore those parts of interpetate them differently than truth?

P.S that video was even more irrelevant but it entertained me so yea :lol:

Okay now let's all go back to OP topic

[Lovelife090994]

Mind the irelevance of this to this discussion, I am going to respond to this anyway with a friendly reminder to get back on topic afterwards ;)



That is your interpertation; yet your god isn't open to all according to the bible; not open to "sinners" including homosexuals; or do you choose to ignore those parts of interpetate them differently than truth?

P.S that video was even more irrelevant but it entertained me so yea :lol:

Okay now let's all go back to OP topic

No, you are incorrect. God is open even tto the sinner and the homosexual, the lost and the found. You may not be with God but he is always with you. Rememeber that because that is the gospel that Jesus preached. I don't care if you hate Christianity or not but even the homosexual, the adulterer, the drunk, the thief, the worst, all are precious in God's eyes. He may not like your sin but he always forgives. You replied to me to be rude and smart-aleck which isn't right. Try not to get on people's nerves because you may push the wrong person's button one day.

And the video is something you should do, helping people and being a blessing.

[Stronk Serb]

No, you are incorrect. God is open even tto the sinner and the homosexual, the lost and the found. You may not be with God but he is always with you. Rememeber that because that is the gospel that Jesus preached. I don't care if you hate Christianity or not but even the homosexual, the adulterer, the drunk, the thief, the worst, all are precious in God's eyes. He may not like your sin but he always forgives. You replied to me to be rude and smart-aleck which isn't right. Try not to get on people's nerves because you may push the wrong person's button one day.

And the video is something you should do, helping people and being a blessing.

Helps people
> MUST BE CHRISTIAN!!111!!!

There are non-Christians helping people too y'know.

[Miserabilia]

No, you are incorrect. God is open even tto the sinner and the homosexual, the lost and the found. You may not be with God but he is always with you. Rememeber that because that is the gospel that Jesus preached. I don't care if you hate Christianity or not but even the homosexual, the adulterer, the drunk, the thief, the worst, all are precious in God's eyes. He may not like your sin but he always forgives. You replied to me to be rude and smart-aleck which isn't right. Try not to get on people's nerves because you may push the wrong person's button one day.

And the video is something you should do, helping people and being a blessing.
No, you are incorrect. God is open even tto the sinner and the homosexual, the lost and the found.

I already responded to this.
This is you cherry picking the bible to have your own interpetation. An outsider may read your bible and get a completely different image of god.

You may not be with God but he is always with you.

Where does he go when I go to hell? Sit there and watch?

Try not to get on people's nerves because you may push the wrong person's button one day.

And the video is something you should do, helping people and being a blessing

Changed my life.

[Lovelife090994]

I already responded to this.
This is you cherry picking the bible to have your own interpetation. An outsider may read your bible and get a completely different image of god.



Where does he go when I go to hell? Sit there and watch?



Changed my life.

Actually, I am giving you the answer dear heart. An outsider would get the image of God as who he is, a Father, a King, and The Divine Lover and Forgiver.

Helps people
> MUST BE CHRISTIAN!!111!!!

There are non-Christians helping people too y'know.

God helps everyone, even you. Being Christian doesn't exactly make you more or less pious. Why else do you think Christians always ask God to help better themselves? He can help you if you want his help. You need only ask with sincerity and give him thanks when it comes. He may not come when you want him but he'll be there right on time. That is an old Southern American saying and it is sure enough true. God is always with you. He's with you now. Can't you hear his voice? It's hard to, because you must learn how to discern his voice. It is warm and evokes a presence, when you fell God you'll feel him. it is a warmth like a hug but with no physical arms that can be felt physically and to your soul. Love, is what he is. However God will not let the wicked go on forever without Judgement; something we all will face. I'll keep praying for you. We all have choices but no matter your faith God looks at your heart. It's for him to decide your fate. And if you lived selflessly and fair then you have nothing to worry about.

[Miserabilia]

Actually, I am giving you the answer dear heart. An outsider would get the image of God as who he is, a Father, a King, and The Divine Lover and Forgiver.



God helps everyone, even you. Being Christian doesn't exactly make you more or less pious. Why else do you think Christians always ask God to help better themselves? He can help you if you want his help. You need only ask with sincerity and give him thanks when it comes. He may not come when you want him but he'll be there right on time. That is an old Southern American saying and it is sure enough true. God is always with you. He's with you now. Can't you hear his voice? It's hard to, because you must learn how to discern his voice. It is warm and evokes a presence, when you fell God you'll feel him. it is a warmth like a hug but with no physical arms that can be felt physically and to your soul. Love, is what he is. However God will not let the wicked go on forever without Judgement; something we all will face. I'll keep praying for you. We all have choices but no matter your faith God looks at your heart. It's for him to decide your fate. And if you lived selflessly and fair then you have nothing to worry about.

Actually, I am giving you the answer dear heart. An outsider would get the image of God as who he is, a Father, a King, and The Divine Lover and Forgiver.


Good luck with your interpetation.

However God will not let the wicked go on forever without Judgement; something we all will face. I'll keep praying for you.

So I am wicked?

Actualy, this is all pretty much all irrelevant.
You haven't really explained the problem I disccussed in my OP yet.

[Lovelife090994]

Good luck with your interpetation.



So I am wicked?

Actualy, this is all pretty much all irrelevant.
You haven't really explained the problem I disccussed in my OP yet.

Good luck in your hard-headedness. I wrote out the answer.

[Miserabilia]

Good luck in your hard-headedness. I wrote out the answer.

Please be more specific.
You wrote out an answer that blurred into irrelevance;
could you explain in two sentences if;

- You beleive in free will or determinism

) If free will is true

- This means god is not all knowing.

) If determinism is true

- This means there is no point in afterlife punishment

[Lovelife090994]

Please be more specific.
You wrote out an answer that blurred into irrelevance;
could you explain in two sentences if;

- You beleive in free will or determinism

) If free will is true

- This means god is not all knowing.

) If determinism is true

- This means there is no point in afterlife punishment

You're really not getting this, are you? Humans act as we want, we have the Earth. God knows and lives past, present, and future. But God is a god, we aren't so we exist and only know the now. God is not out to punish, that is Satan's doing.

[Miserabilia]

You're really not getting this, are you? Humans act as we want, we have the Earth. God knows and lives past, present, and future. But God is a god, we aren't so we exist and only know the now. God is not out to punish, that is Satan's doing.

God knows and lives past, present, and future.

Okay so you are a determinist.

God is not out to punish, that is Satan's doing.

Oh it's that argument; so god created everything and is all poweful; but when a different being punishes humans and sends them to eternal damnation, you know that's not his fault; it's not like he could do something about it??

[Lovelife090994]

Okay so you are a determinist.



Oh it's that argument; so god created everything and is all poweful; but when a different being punishes humans and sends them to eternal damnation, you know that's not his fault; it's not like he could do something about it??

Hell is not God's domain. It is not about determinism or whatever rhetoric you call it. That's the God of Christianity, he can do anything. But the one thing he won't do is break his own laws. Entering Hell is one of those since he banished Satan and his angels to Hell to be undisturbed. However the devil being who he is hating humanity snares people up and they face his fate to be away from The Father.

[Miserabilia]

Hell is not God's domain. It is not about determinism or whatever rhetoric you call it. That's the God of Christianity, he can do anything. But the one thing he won't do is break his own laws. Entering Hell is one of those since he banished Satan and his angels to Hell to be undisturbed. However the devil being who he is hating humanity snares people up and they face his fate to be away from The Father.

Hell is not God's domain.

Oh interesting.
So god and hell are totaly seperate?
So hell already existed, and god created the rest of the universe and heaven?
Or are you saying both heaven and hell already existed and that god created neither?

It is not about determinism or whatever rhetoric you call it.

My thread title disagrees with you.

But the one thing he won't do is break his own laws. Entering Hell is one of those since he banished Satan and his angels to Hell to be undisturbed. However the devil being who he is hating humanity snares people up and they face his fate to be away from The Father.

Yes, or he could just prevent people from being sent there directly.
And no sending his son to die for our sins is not prevent is not directly.
There's absolutely no reason why god should not just make satan and fallen angels POOF dissapear into nothingnes.
But god is choosing to keep evil in the world and let people be sent there for eternal damnation.

[Lovelife090994]

Oh interesting.
So god and hell are totaly seperate?
So hell already existed, and god created the rest of the universe and heaven?
Or are you saying both heaven and hell already existed and that god created neither?



My thread title disagrees with you.



Yes, or he could just prevent people from being sent there directly.
And no sending his son to die for our sins is not prevent is not directly.
There's absolutely no reason why god should not just make satan and fallen angels POOF dissapear into nothingnes.
But god is choosing to keep evil in the world and let people be sent there for eternal damnation.

Jesus' crucifixion made it possible for us to enter Heaven. The Devil can do no more than what God allows. God loves us like parents love their children. Like parents God will judge you based on your actions. If you are wicked you have no place in Heaven. Heaven is no place for the wicked. Hell was created as a domain for Satan, by Satan's free will he is the one punishing others. But you can't be evil and get into Heaven. Heaven is a place for the saved, chosen, and the true. If you are none of these then Hell could be possible. It all depends on your actions. God created the Universe, the Heavens and the Earth. Hell is within the Earth. Hell is physical. Remember how I said Earth is for the living? Well if you are unfit for Heaven then you are still bound to Earth, just not the surface, you are sent below to Hell. You chose to not go with God and he won't force you to him ergo Hellbound for the evil.

[Miserabilia]

Jesus' crucifixion made it possible for us to enter Heaven. The Devil can do no more than what God allows. God loves us like parents love their children. Like parents God will judge you based on your actions. If you are wicked you have no place in Heaven. Heaven is no place for the wicked. Hell was created as a domain for Satan, by Satan's free will he is the one punishing others. But you can't be evil and get into Heaven. Heaven is a place for the saved, chosen, and the true. If you are none of these then Hell could be possible. It all depends on your actions. God created the Universe, the Heavens and the Earth. Hell is within the Earth. Hell is physical. Remember how I said Earth is for the living? Well if you are unfit for Heaven then you are still bound to Earth, just not the surface, you are sent below to Hell. You chose to not go with God and he won't force you to him ergo Hellbound for the evil.
The Devil can do no more than what God allows.

So god wants people to go to hell, correct? (Not everyone, but sinners; if he didn't, he wouldn't allow the devil to do so)

If you are wicked you have no place in Heaven. Heaven is no place for the wicked.

Define "wicked";
almost every christian has different interpertations of the bible and who is allowed into heaven and who isn't.
The question is who do I know that your view on that is right and not others?
This is one of the main reasons I am not religious.

Heaven is a place for the saved, chosen, and the true. If you are none of these then Hell could be possible.

What happens to homosexual atheists?
Do they go to hell, heaven, purgatory???

Hell is within the Earth. Hell is physical.

I assume you mean it exists as a physical realm outside of our own, right?
I don't think you'd really beleive that there is a lake of fire and burning souls in the core of the earth?

You chose to not go with God and he won't force you to him ergo Hellbound for the evil.

The "sending yourself to hell" argument.

HaJgLBoB_Pw

[Lovelife090994]

So god wants people to go to hell, correct? (Not everyone, but sinners; if he didn't, he wouldn't allow the devil to do so)



Define "wicked";
almost every christian has different interpertations of the bible and who is allowed into heaven and who isn't.
The question is who do I know that your view on that is right and not others?
This is one of the main reasons I am not religious.



What happens to homosexual atheists?
Do they go to hell, heaven, purgatory???


I assume you mean it exists as a physical realm outside of our own, right?
I don't think you'd really believe that there is a lake of fire and burning souls in the core of the earth?



The "sending yourself to hell" argument.

HaJgLBoB_Pw

That video is irrelevant. Like it or not God has criteria to Heaven. Anyone can come but not if they are unwilling to be with God. In the end God grants people entry to Heaven, but know that Hell is a place no one should go. That is why Christians warn others. We want no one in Hell. It isn't fair but when someone is against God, his people, the Jews, the Christians, life, love, and freedom of beliefs then they are being wicked. You could go to Heaven but only God knows your heart. I'm just telling you what I believe. I'm not sorry if you hate it. You aren't changing my opinions anyway. Go blue in the face if you want, I won't stop you, yet.

[alphazenofi]

I believe in God, and Heaven and Hell, I'm catholic... I don't believe in predestination, I'll try to explain... Free will exists, God puts in front of us lots of options, we can choose, but it's like the destiny is already written, He knows us very well, so He knows what we would choose, but He lets us choose although... Hope I was clear :)

[Miserabilia]

That video is irrelevant. Like it or not God has criteria to Heaven. Anyone can come but not if they are unwilling to be with God. In the end God grants people entry to Heaven, but know that Hell is a place no one should go. That is why Christians warn others. We want no one in Hell. It isn't fair but when someone is against God, his people, the Jews, the Christians, life, love, and freedom of beliefs then they are being wicked. You could go to Heaven but only God knows your heart. I'm just telling you what I believe. I'm not sorry if you hate it. You aren't changing my opinions anyway. Go blue in the face if you want, I won't stop you, yet.

That video is irrelevant.

It's extremely relevant.
It directly adresses the sending yourself to hell argument with satire.

Like it or not God has criteria to Heaven. Anyone can come but not if they are unwilling to be with God.

So I ask again; what about an atheist who lived a good live and didn't do bad things? Does he go to hell because he is "unwilling to be with god"?

We want no one in Hell.

Then I trust god will start evacuating it soon.

Hell. It isn't fair but when someone is against God, his people, the Jews, the Christians, life, love, and freedom of beliefs then they are being wicked.

So I guess atheists are in the clear then, unless they are anti-theists, who according to you burn for eternity.

I'm not sorry if you hate it. You aren't changing my opinions anyway. Go blue in the face if you want, I won't stop you, yet.

I won't stop you...
YET.
*dun dun dunnnn*
Seriously though what?

I believe in God, and Heaven and Hell, I'm catholic... I don't believe in predestination, I'll try to explain... Free will exists, God puts in front of us lots of options, we can choose, but it's like the destiny is already written, He knows us very well, so He knows what we would choose, but He lets us choose although... Hope I was clear :)

That's a contradiction, but just because I think you are confused with the terms;
free will can not exist if destiny is already written.
Destiny already being written is determinism in it's purest form.

[Lovelife090994]

It's extremely relevant.
It directly adresses the sending yourself to hell argument with satire.



So I ask again; what about an atheist who lived a good live and didn't do bad things? Does he go to hell because he is "unwilling to be with god"?



Then I trust god will start evacuating it soon.



So I guess atheists are in the clear then, unless they are anti-theists, who according to you burn for eternity.



I won't stop you...
YET.
*dun dun dunnnn*
Seriously though what?



That's a contradiction, but just because I think you are confused with the terms;
free will can not exist if destiny is already written.
Destiny already being written is determinism in it's purest form.

An atheist can go to heaven too as long as they aren't evil in their hearts. Free will is how a person can be atheist in the first place.

[Miserabilia]

An atheist can go to heaven too as long as they aren't evil in their hearts. Free will is how a person can be atheist in the first place.

Okay that's good.

And a homosexual atheist?

[Lovelife090994]

Okay that's good.

And a homosexual atheist?

I answered this eighty times! Are you a homosexual atheist or something?

[Miserabilia]

I answered this eighty times! Are you a homosexual atheist or something?

You just answered it for an atheist.
However about homosexuality I've only seen vague answers, like god can forgive anyone or let anyone in who accepts god etc,
so what about a homosexual who is atheist and has no beleif or love for god whatsever, but is still a good person?

[Lovelife090994]

You just answered it for an atheist.
However about homosexuality I've only seen vague answers, like god can forgive anyone or let anyone in who accepts god etc,
so what about a homosexual who is atheist and has no beleif or love for god whatsever, but is still a good person?

A homosexual is no different than anyone else unless they use their differences to place them on a pedestal. No one is to be placed on a self-made "I'm better than you" pedestal. A homosexual can still go to Heaven. it depends on your life. Now if you constantly fight, have nothing but anger in you, blame others for your own transgressions, etcetera then that may be another story or issue. Homosexuality is viewed like any other sin, no greater, no lesser, all equal, and can be forgiven. Jesus went to all, the drunkard, and the poor, the rich, and the forgotten.

[Miserabilia]

A homosexual is no different than anyone else unless they use their differences to place them on a pedestal. No one is to be placed on a self-made "I'm better than you" pedestal. A homosexual can still go to Heaven. it depends on your life. Now if you constantly fight, have nothing but anger in you, blame others for your own transgressions, etcetera then that may be another story or issue. Homosexuality is viewed like any other sin, no greater, no lesser, all equal, and can be forgiven. Jesus went to all, the drunkard, and the poor, the rich, and the forgotten.

they use their differences to place them on a pedestal.

Could you define this? And also, the ones that are doing this, do they go to hell?

Homosexuality is viewed like any other sin, no greater, no lesser, all equal, and can be forgiven. Jesus went to all, the drunkard, and the poor, the rich, and the forgotten.

See there you said it again;
homosexuality is a sin that can be forgiven;

but I'm talking about atheists here.
They don't ask a god for forgivenes, and they don't beleive in his existence untill they die, not being sorry for being who they are in the first place.
That would mean they go to hell, no?

[Lovelife090994]

Could you define this? And also, the ones that are doing this, do they go to hell?



See there you said it again;
homosexuality is a sin that can be forgiven;

but I'm talking about atheists here.
They don't ask a god for forgivenes, and they don't beleive in his existence untill they die, not being sorry for being who they are in the first place.
That would mean they go to hell, no?

Again, who's to say? They may repent at their last breath. Even if they didn't it still goes to God. I can tell you the general ways and rules but in the end God says so. However one thing is certain, you can't be evil in Heaven, you can't be against God in Heaven. A person who puts themselves high is a victim or pride. Usually God knocks down people's pride whether they like it or not. You are supposed to be humble if you are with the Lord. Of course, this takes time.

[Miserabilia]

Again, who's to say? They may repent at their last breath. Even if they didn't it still goes to God. I can tell you the general ways and rules but in the end God says so. However one thing is certain, you can't be evil in Heaven, you can't be against God in Heaven. A person who puts themselves high is a victim or pride. Usually God knocks down people's pride whether they like it or not. You are supposed to be humble if you are with the Lord. Of course, this takes time.

Again, who's to say? They may repent at their last breath.
In the secnario I just made up hypotheticaly, they don't .
But from what you just said I'm assuming they'll make it to heaven.
Which is a good way to look at it,
atleast a lot more positive than some religious people who preach only of certain things that are somehow guarenteed to get one into hell.

[Lovelife090994]

In the secnario I just made up hypotheticaly, they don't .
But from what you just said I'm assuming they'll make it to heaven.
Which is a good way to look at it,
atleast a lot more positive than some religious people who preach only of certain things that are somehow guarenteed to get one into hell.

That's why Jesus died for us. Literally anyone can go to heaven. God knows your heart. if you are a good person, you are a good person.

[Were]

No.
As I've explained before, (reread one of my earlier posts I did a whole thing on it),
a god knowing everything that will ever happen means deteterminism is true BY DEFINITION.
Even if the only thing I know of that god is that he knows everything that will ever happen, any other quality of him or the universe is irrelevant to whether determinism is true or not, because it WOULD be true by definition.
I can try to explain why this is so again, if you want.

you cannot understand things of God with your human knowledge for even the Bible tells us that God is a spirit and those who worship Him should do so in spirit and in truth

[Were]

That's why Jesus died for us. Literally anyone can go to heaven. God knows your heart. if you are a good person, you are a good person.

Jesus said that no one will see the kingdom of God if they are not born again and He also said that no sexually immoral,liar,thief will see the kingdom of God

[Were]

You just answered it for an atheist.
However about homosexuality I've only seen vague answers, like god can forgive anyone or let anyone in who accepts god etc,
so what about a homosexual who is atheist and has no beleif or love for god whatsever, but is still a good person?

Guys you have to be guided by the word of God and according to the bible,no homosexual will see heaven,and so there remains one option for them,hell

[Lovelife090994]

Guys you have to be guided by the word of God and according to the bible,no homosexual will see heaven,and so there remains one option for them,hell

A homosexual is still loved and liking the same gender won't stop a Christian from believing in God. It's not something you wake up leaving, this is a faith we are talking about. True, the saved go to Heaven, but anyone could be saved and repent even at death.

[Were]

A homosexual is still loved and liking the same gender won't stop a Christian from believing in God. It's not something you wake up leaving, this is a faith we are talking about. True, the saved go to Heaven, but anyone could be saved and repent even at death.

Yes,God loves the homosexuals but hates homosexuality(loves the people but hates their sin) and why don't they repent and live righteous lives other than waiting to repent at death

[Lovelife090994]

Yes,God loves the homosexuals but hates homosexuality(loves the people but hates their sin) and why don't they repent and live righteous lives other than waiting to repent at death

Not everyone in the world is Christian. While most Christians preach that God loves the people and hates the sin, some take this to the extreme and reverse the love the people who sin to hate the people who sin. And you never know someone's life story. Me as a non-straight Christian I have been bombarded by a lot of negative Christian rhetoric. So many are so quick to judge that they forget they are hurting hearts in the process. I never hated them though. I think God does truly love us all, but one thing is certain; he doesn't love sin. Although it's hard to say whether or not homosexuality and the like are sins, since so many try to say that since homosexuals sin they are not welcome to God. Well, that's funny because I'm pretty sure we all sin.

[Gamma Male]

Yes,God loves the homosexuals but hates homosexuality(loves the people but hates their sin) and why don't they repent and live righteous lives other than waiting to repent at death

Maybe because I don't want to
1 Be celibate my entire life.
or 2 Force myself into a mutually unhappy relationship.

[Lovelife090994]

Maybe because I don't want to
1 Be celibate my entire life.
or 2 Force myself into a mutually unhappy relationship.

I agree with you, but on a side note, I don't think anyone is asking you to be celibate. At the moment I am in fact but partially not by choice... Tough answer I guess to dilute into clear words.

[Music Lover]

No. Determinism is not excerciced; you can't bring it to a small scale example like this, because this is not determinism and fee will;
this is a small every day prediction.

Yes but how I see it knowing your friends actions beforehand and God knowing our actions "beforehand" is due to the same reason: intimate knowledge on the person.


Then determinism MUST be true.
I don't think I can explain that further.
Perfect information of every choice ever automaticaly makes determinism true.


Ok answer this question: If determinism DOESN'T exist, will there exist multiple actual scenarios or is there only multiple possible scenarios, of which on will be chosen?


THen there is no line of infinite branches.
I can draw a whole tree but if I draw over one continuis line with a different colour, that's still just one line; no matter how many possible other outcomes there were, knowing a path of all outcomes means there is only one outcomes; the outcome that is known with certainty.

But the actions of a human being were his to choose. He could have chosen a different branch.
What I've been trying to tell you is that God doesn't need to control us in order to know what we will do. Because as I see it, control over our choices is what goes against free will and not knowing what choices we will make.


And as to one word previously i put in quotation marks, "beforehand"., something I forgot to mention in my first reply, is an idea that God isn't inside our timeline, but outside it. Kind of like a writer can write a story in 2 years although the timeline only encompasses 2 days.
For a more detailed explanation you should read 5 pages of a book by a certain Clive Staples. The chapter Time and Beyond Time in his book Mere Christianity.
Of course, like I told Vierchan in another thread, I encourage also to read the whole book, since it quite thoroughly and clearly explains a lot of Christianity. (Hence the name) That is, if you want to understand better what the Christian faith is.

[Miserabilia]

Yes but how I see it knowing your friends actions beforehand and God knowing our actions "beforehand" is due to the same reason: intimate knowledge on the person. [1]



Ok answer this question: If determinism DOESN'T exist, will there exist multiple actual scenarios or is there only multiple possible scenarios, of which on will be chosen? [2]



But the actions of a human being were his to choose. He could have chosen a different branch.
What I've been trying to tell you is that God doesn't need to control us in order to know what we will do. Because as I see it, control over our choices is what goes against free will and not knowing what choices we will make.
[3]



[1] christian beleifs largely claim god is all knowing, so he doesn't just know the person, he knows everything they will do, and everything every atom will go through in the entire universe. This is determinism.

[2] Doesn't matter; it could either be that the universe is in a straight line, or that there are several fixed paths that are all equaly available; in either case everything is still predetermined.

[3] You still don't seem to understand what determinism is. I'm not saying god is controlling everyone's choices.
It's just that free will can't exist BY DEFINITION if there is a being that knows every choice that will ever be made.

[Music Lover]

[1] christian beleifs largely claim god is all knowing, so he doesn't just know the person, he knows everything they will do, and everything every atom will go through in the entire universe. This is determinism.

All the while I've been trying to bring this all back to the first post, where you asked how to solve the problem of determinism and free will.

I offered an alternative where free will is exercised and God knows HOW it will be exercised. You said it is not free will anymore, since it can be known. So I tried offering an example where free will is exercised but that the outcome is still known.

And then I turned onto the flaw of the word predeterminism: It supposes God follows the same timeline as us.

[2] Doesn't matter; it could either be that the universe is in a straight line, or that there are several fixed paths that are all equaly available; in either case everything is still predetermined.

Yay we're talking about lines :D

[3] You still don't seem to understand what determinism is. I'm not saying god is controlling everyone's choices.
It's just that free will can't exist BY DEFINITION if there is a being that knows every choice that will ever be made.

I did not say you said that either. I was only trying to point out how in my opinion free will and determism could coexist.

For me, free will means that our actions are not controlled. Seems logical, since control and freedom are opposites. That is why I talked about control.

For you God knowing our choices somehow takes away free will? Wouldn't a more accurate for your idea of free will then be unpredictable/unknowable choices?

[Miserabilia]

For you God knowing our choices somehow takes away free will? Wouldn't a more accurate for your idea of free will then be unpredictable/unknowable choices?

That is exactly what free will is.
It's making choices independent of previous events, independent of the situation, and therefore unpredictable and infinitely many diffferent paths.
The moment choices are known in advance (100% accurate) free will can not exist.

[Lovelife090994]

That is exactly what free will is.
It's making choices independent of previous events, independent of the situation, and therefore unpredictable and infinitely many diffferent paths.
The moment choices are known in advance (100% accurate) free will can not exist.

Not quite. Remember we are the one living, not God in this case. God is life, he transcends Earth, Space, Time, and Reality. He's the all knowing one with infinite decks of plays. We've only one deck of life and it's up to us what we choose. God will not tell you what to do with your life. That is up to you.

[CharlieHorse]

Not quite. Remember we are the one living, not God in this case. God is life, he transcends Earth, Space, Time, and Reality. He's the all knowing one with infinite decks of plays. We've only one deck of life and it's up to us what we choose. God will not tell you what to do with your life. That is up to you.

Is that what they teach kids nowadays? That's interesting.

[Lovelife090994]

Is that what they teach kids nowadays? That's interesting.

Please don't be facetious, please don't.

[Music Lover]

That is exactly what free will is.
It's making choices independent of previous events, independent of the situation, and therefore unpredictable and infinitely many diffferent paths.
The moment choices are known in advance (100% accurate) free will can not exist.

Can you imagine a situation where a choice is independent of previous events and the situation, but can be still known in advance?

And another question, did you read the chapter of the book I suggested? Because you seem to be thinking that God travels through time like the universe does and thus He would need to make accurate predictions in this moment in order to see the future. I.e. knowing what the future is but being able to observe it only after some time has passed.

[Miserabilia]

Can you imagine a situation where a choice is independent of previous events and the situation, but can be still known in advance?


No, because that situation does not exist. The moment a choice is known in advance it is dependent on the situation and previous events, situation being the choice made, set in advance by the knowledge that it will occur.
I am pretty much done explaining this as I have too many times, I suggest you ask any question still burning on this subject and then we can get back on the original problem.


And another question, did you read the chapter of the book I suggested?

I didn't. If there's anything directly important from it, feel free to quote it.


Because you seem to be thinking that God travels through time like the universe does

If you read through my previous posts you'll see I already aknowledged a situation where god is outside time boundaries.



does and thus He would need to make accurate predictions in this moment in order to see the future. I.e. knowing what the future is but being able to observe it only after some time has passed.

No. The moment some being is seperate from space and time and still knows everything (including all choices made), these choices are not independent of the situation.
See above.


Not quite. Remember we are the one living, not God in this case.

Um okay? Not sure what you mean with that.

God is life, he transcends Earth, Space, Time, and Reality.

Already aknowledged a situation where a god is outside time and space, which is still irrelevant as he's all knowing.(If he is.)

He's the all knowing one with infinite decks of plays. We've only one deck of life and it's up to us what we choose. God will not tell you what to do with your life. That is up to you.

Sigh I've been over this, the moment a path is known on every choice ever made, detemrinism is true.
The card deck example I've already been through; if there's a tree with many branches, but you only draw one coloured line over a path across several branches, that's still just one line, no matter how many branches;
if you rearange the line you still just get a single straight line.

[CharlieHorse]

Please don't be facetious, please don't.

I'm genuinely curious what institution you are a part of that teaches that.

[Lovelife090994]

I'm genuinely curious what institution you are a part of that teaches that.

Teaches what? Which parts? I am not under any doctrines.

[Music Lover]

No, because that situation does not exist. The moment a choice is known in advance it is dependent on the situation and previous events, situation being the choice made, set in advance by the knowledge that it will occur.
I am pretty much done explaining this as I have too many times, I suggest you ask any question still burning on this subject and then we can get back on the original problem.

Ok because if I were to answer that question, I CAN imagine it. And if you by any means cannot, despite me trying to offer multiple points of view, then we must agree to disagree.

I didn't. If there's anything directly important from it, feel free to quote it.

Basically the whole 6 pages is important in grasping the idea of God being not constrained to time. But only the last page or so focuses on free will:

"Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to so-and-so how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call "today". All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them, because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not "foresee" you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way -- because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at which you ahve done it is already "Now" for Him.

This idea has helped me a good deal. If it does not help you, leave it alone. It is a "Christian idea" in the sense that great and wise Christians have held it and there is nothing in it contrary to Christianity. But it is not in the Bible or any of the creeds. You can be a perfectly good Christian without accepting it, or indeed without thinking of the matter at all."


If you read through my previous posts you'll see I already aknowledged a situation where god is outside time boundaries.

Ok apoloqies, since I somehow manages to miss that.


No. The moment some being is seperate from space and time and still knows everything (including all choices made), these choices are not independent of the situation.
See above.

Ok.

Let's suppose for sake of argument God only observes the present actions and choices, but sees them perfectly. Does that take away your freedom in present time?

[Miserabilia]

Ok because if I were to answer that question, I CAN imagine it. And if you by any means cannot, despite me trying to offer multiple points of view, then we must agree to disagree. [1]




Let's suppose for sake of argument God only observes the present actions and choices, but sees them perfectly. Does that take away your freedom in present time? [2]

[1]: I don't know what you are imagining but I doubt it's something that's by definition impossible. You can imagine all you want but in the real world it could never be possible because it's contradictory, know what I mean?

[2]: If he knows every choice and action now, he also knows them next second and minute and year, and therefore everything of all times.

[Lovelife090994]

[1]: I don't know what you are imagining but I doubt it's something that's by definition impossible. You can imagine all you want but in the real world it could never be possible because it's contradictory, know what I mean?

[2]: If he knows every choice and action now, he also knows them next second and minute and year, and therefore everything of all times.

God literally does know everything. That doesn't stop you from breathing.

[LuciferSam]

God literally does know everything. That doesn't stop you from breathing.

But it does dismantle any free will. You could say that "he knows what you may choose, but you can still make the choice", but that negates omniscience.

[Miserabilia]

But it does dismantle any free will. You could say that "he knows what you may choose, but you can still make the choice", but that negates omniscience.

^this, is what I've been trying to explain, thank you

[LuciferSam]

^this, is what I've been trying to explain, thank you

You'd be surprised how many just don't get this when I've tried to explain it to them. (Or maybe you wouldn't.)

[Lovelife090994]

But it does dismantle any free will. You could say that "he knows what you may choose, but you can still make the choice", but that negates omniscience.

No that doesn't. God is an overseer. You are simply acting. You choose where to go, what to do, and what to say. God just knows every outcome before you do. He knows what you'll pick, but he won't tell you or force you. You are free. How does omniscience stop your will? You can even be against God, and he won't force you to him.

[CharlieHorse]

Teaches what? Which parts? I am not under any doctrines.

Taught you your religious beliefs. All of em :P

[LuciferSam]

No that doesn't. God is an overseer. You are simply acting. You choose where to go, what to do, and what to say. God just knows every outcome before you do. He knows what you'll pick, but he won't tell you or force you. You are free. How does omniscience stop your will? You can even be against God, and he won't force you to him.

He doesn't have to force you. If he knows already what you are going to do, that means you can't help but choose that option. If you don't choose the path god "knows" you will take, then he's not omniscient. But if he knows everything, past, present and future, then you can't help but follow that path. Free will gone.

[Lovelife090994]

He doesn't have to force you. If he knows already what you are going to do, that means you can't help but choose that option. If you don't choose the path god "knows" you will take, then he's not omniscient. But if he knows everything, past, present and future, then you can't help but follow that path. Free will gone.

That barely makes sense! God knows what you'll do. You don't before you make the decision to make the choice. No matter what you pick you may have picked this or that, but you did it. God didn't pick for you.

Taught you your religious beliefs. All of em :P

Excuse me?

[Camazotz]

That barely makes sense! God knows what you'll do. You don't before you make the decision to make the choice. No matter what you pick you may have picked this or that, but you did it. God didn't pick for you.

Regardless of whether or not God dictates our choices, if he knows what choices we'll make, then predeterminism exists: that means that we do not truly have free will because everything's already been decided. If God's plan is already made, then we cannot make decisions against this plan, and therefore free will does not exist. It may feel like it exists to us, but it's just an illusion.

[CharlieHorse]

Excuse me?

I'm curious to know where you learned about religion.
Is that insulting or something? If so, then never mind. I'm just curious.

[Lovelife090994]

Regardless of whether or not God dictates our choices, if he knows what choices we'll make, then predeterminism exists: that means that we do not truly have free will because everything's already been decided. If God's plan is already made, then we cannot make decisions against this plan, and therefore free will does not exist. It may feel like it exists to us, but it's just an illusion.

You don't know God's plan though.

[Lovelife090994]

I'm curious to know where you learned about religion.
Is that insulting or something? If so, then never mind. I'm just curious.

I wasn't taught on religion studies if that's what you mean. I was raised to have an education, a diligent mindset to do right, and to keep a relationship with the Lord. Anything less and I would not be welcome under my Mother's roof.

[Camazotz]

You don't know God's plan though.

That's the point I'm trying to make though. To us, our actions are independent of God's plan; it appears as though every action we take is of our own free will. If you think about it from an outside perspective though, our decisions are only following God's plan, making free will just an illusion to us. From that outside perspective, we're really just following the plan, thus making free will false.

[Lovelife090994]

That's the point I'm trying to make though. To us, our actions are independent of God's plan; it appears as though every action we take is of our own free will. If you think about it from an outside perspective though, our decisions are only following God's plan, making free will just an illusion to us. From that outside perspective, we're really just following the plan, thus making free will false.

I don't see it that way or understand that. I see God as the overseer and protector. I see his plan as wanting us to be happy. Is that so bad for a being to want happiness for his children? We are all unique. There is no set mold waiting for us. We live our own lives.

[Miserabilia]

I don't see it that way or understand that. I see God as the overseer and protector. I see his plan as wanting us to be happy. Is that so bad for a being to want happiness for his children? We are all unique. There is no set mold waiting for us. We live our own lives.

Please read into what determinism and free will mean and what the debate is about, this is going nowhere otherwise.

[Camazotz]

I don't see it that way or understand that. I see God as the overseer and protector. I see his plan as wanting us to be happy. Is that so bad for a being to want happiness for his children? We are all unique. There is no set mold waiting for us. We live our own lives.

I didn't say anything about the plan being sad or depressing or having bad intent. You're missing the point.

We "live our own lives," but the "free will" we seem to experience is really all just part of a master plan, which contradicts the very nature of free will.

If free will were to exist, then there couldn't be a plan because God wouldn't know what we were going to choose. But since he does, free will is just an illusion.

I agree with Cheese; if you're going to ignore this argument without answering it directly, then you should at least research the issue because we're not progressing in this argument if you keep bringing up irrelevant beliefs (I never said that God's plan was somehow malevolent, I merely said that if he had a plan that we followed, free will could not exist).

[LuciferSam]

That barely makes sense! God knows what you'll do. You don't before you make the decision to make the choice. No matter what you pick you may have picked this or that, but you did it. God didn't pick for you.


Even if you make the choice, an entity pre-knowing your choice indicates that this is a deterministic universe. If your choice is truly free and random, then there's the possibility that god won't actually know, thus negating the omniscience. If he can predict your life, even if he's not actively controlling it, that means that your live revolves around a set of rules that makes it predictable (i.e. determinism), as otherwise, the prediction might be wrong for the reasons already stated.

[LuciferSam]

That's the point I'm trying to make though. To us, our actions are independent of God's plan; it appears as though every action we take is of our own free will. If you think about it from an outside perspective though, our decisions are only following God's plan, making free will just an illusion to us. From that outside perspective, we're really just following the plan, thus making free will false.

This.

[Miserabilia]

I can't beleive that all posts in this thread so far have been about christian misunderstanding of determinism and free will when I've only seen about 3 replies that actualy answered the original problem :rolleyes:

[Lovelife090994]

I can't beleive that all posts in this thread so far have been about christian misunderstanding of determinism and free will when I've only seen about 3 replies that actualy answered the original problem :rolleyes:

This.

Even if you make the choice, an entity pre-knowing your choice indicates that this is a deterministic universe. If your choice is truly free and random, then there's the possibility that god won't actually know, thus negating the omniscience. If he can predict your life, even if he's not actively controlling it, that means that your live revolves around a set of rules that makes it predictable (i.e. determinism), as otherwise, the prediction might be wrong for the reasons already stated.

I didn't say anything about the plan being sad or depressing or having bad intent. You're missing the point.

We "live our own lives," but the "free will" we seem to experience is really all just part of a master plan, which contradicts the very nature of free will.

If free will were to exist, then there couldn't be a plan because God wouldn't know what we were going to choose. But since he does, free will is just an illusion.

I agree with Cheese; if you're going to ignore this argument without answering it directly, then you should at least research the issue because we're not progressing in this argument if you keep bringing up irrelevant beliefs (I never said that God's plan was somehow malevolent, I merely said that if he had a plan that we followed, free will could not exist).

Please read into what determinism and free will mean and what the debate is about, this is going nowhere otherwise.

God knowing more about you than you know yourself doesn't hinder your life. If God really wanted to control us then there would be no sin; but he did leave the Earth for man to control. He can still step in when need be and when called of course. Free will is having the ability to live and think. I answered you all clearly and simply. If you don't want to hear the Christian side of free will from my mouth then there is no reason talking to you.

[Miserabilia]

God knowing more about you than you know yourself doesn't hinder your life. If God really wanted to control us then there would be no sin; but he did leave the Earth for man to control. He can still step in when need be and when called of course. Free will is having the ability to live and think. I answered you all clearly and simply. If you don't want to hear the Christian side of free will from my mouth then there is no reason talking to you.

If you want to beleive in incorrect information and blatantly ignore definitions of both terms, then no, there is no point, and I'll end this right here.
byebye.

[Camazotz]

God knowing more about you than you know yourself doesn't hinder your life. If God really wanted to control us then there would be no sin; but he did leave the Earth for man to control. He can still step in when need be and when called of course. Free will is having the ability to live and think. I answered you all clearly and simply. If you don't want to hear the Christian side of free will from my mouth then there is no reason talking to you.

That's not what free will is.

Free will is defined as, "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

For the umpteenth time, if God has a predetermined plan, all our actions are determined by fate, and we are therefore living under the illusion of free will.

You think you're answering this, but you're not at all. There are two options:

1. God has a plan that only he knows, and everything is planned out. If he intervenes with our "free will", he already knew he'd have to intervene because his divine plan is already decided. If that's true, we're not living under actual free will, we only perceive it as free will.

2. God doesn't have a predetermined plan, and we have actual free will, and our actions have not been planned out beforehand.

[CharlieHorse]

That's not what free will is.

Free will is defined as, "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

For the umpteenth time, if God has a predetermined plan, all our actions are determined by fate, and we are therefore living under the illusion of free will.

You think you're answering this, but you're not at all. There are two options:

1. God has a plan that only he knows, and everything is planned out. If he intervenes with our "free will", he already knew he'd have to intervene because his divine plan is already decided. If that's true, we're not living under actual free will, we only perceive it as free will.

2. God doesn't have a predetermined plan, and we have actual free will, and our actions have not been planned out beforehand.

finally a good explanation thank you :P

[Lovelife090994]

If you want to beleive in incorrect information and blatantly ignore definitions of both terms, then no, there is no point, and I'll end this right here.
byebye.

That's not what free will is.

Free will is defined as, "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

For the umpteenth time, if God has a predetermined plan, all our actions are determined by fate, and we are therefore living under the illusion of free will.

You think you're answering this, but you're not at all. There are two options:

1. God has a plan that only he knows, and everything is planned out. If he intervenes with our "free will", he already knew he'd have to intervene because his divine plan is already decided. If that's true, we're not living under actual free will, we only perceive it as free will.

2. God doesn't have a predetermined plan, and we have actual free will, and our actions have not been planned out beforehand.

finally a good explanation thank you :P

You do realize I'll never let people change what I believe in right? No matter what you think I'll still be a Christian of God and will live myself in freedom. I won't go Atheist just because you see it as right. God is all-knowing, humans are not and can never be. God is a god. Man is a mortal.

[Camazotz]

You do realize I'll never let people change what I believe in right? No matter what you think I'll still be a Christian of God and will live myself in freedom. I won't go Atheist just because you see it as right. God is all-knowing, humans are not and can never be. God is a god. Man is a mortal.

...

Are you kidding me? When I ask you to ponder this philosophical issue using logic and reasoning, this is how you respond? When I specifically asked you to answer me directly, you accuse me of trying to convert you and again spew your religious dogma as some sort of justification for bumbling on through a "debate"?

*sigh*

[CharlieHorse]

I'll never let people change what I believe in

that can be dangerous. I would think that an open mind to consider beliefs is one that can agree with many.

[Miserabilia]

K people. End now, get back on topic, ignore further irrelevant replies if nescecairy :/ (not modding just requesting)

[Lovelife090994]

...

Are you kidding me? When I ask you to ponder this philosophical issue using logic and reasoning, this is how you respond? When I specifically asked you to answer me directly, you accuse me of trying to convert you and again spew your religious dogma as some sort of justification for bumbling on through a "debate"?

*sigh*


that can be dangerous. I would think that an open mind to consider beliefs is one that can agree with many.

I've had enough people try and change me. An open mind leads to an open heart, and an open heart let's in too many hurtful people.

[CharlieHorse]

I've had enough people try and change me. An open mind leads to an open heart, and an open heart let's in too many hurtful people.

An open mind with common sense, rationality, and discipline leads to self security and a love of knowledge.
Depending on the person of course. Film not yet rated XD

[LuciferSam]

I think we can all agree that this is headed nowhere. Nobody here is going to concede and we will just end up in the all too familiar circular arguments of religion vs. non-religious. I'm not saying that you all can't continue, but I'm leaving before this devolves any further.

[Miserabilia]

Again, requesting for yall to please get back on the original topic. If nobody has any answers to the original problem, I'll request a thread lock or something.

[Stronk Serb]

Well, what we were taught here at religious studies (religious indoctrination 101, they just throw dpgma at you and don't try to explain) is: God is almighty, omniscient and we have free will. It kinda didn't make sense to me that he knows what will be of us, but that we have free will so I stopped believing