Free will and faith (particuliary christianity)

[Music Lover]

[2]: If he knows every choice and action now, he also knows them next second and minute and year, and therefore everything of all times.

And you didn't answer my question. Does him knowing what you are currently doing take away the freedom of choice you have in doing it?

But it does dismantle any free will. You could say that "he knows what you may choose, but you can still make the choice", but that negates omniscience.

I still don't see how there is no possibility of having free will AND God knowing the outcome.

Putting definitions aside for a moment, let me try and clarify what I am thinking:
If on one hand there is an idea that we are totally free to choose our own actions and God couldn't know any of it beforehand.
And the completely opposite idea is that our actions are totally predetermined and we only have an illusion of choice.

I believe you call the first one free will and the second one determinism?

Then what do you call the idea that we can choose whatever we want to and it is not predetermined, but God can observe the whole timeline because he is not restricted to it.
Is that to you also determinism? Or do you see any difference between them?

1. God has a plan that only he knows, and everything is planned out. If he intervenes with our "free will", he already knew he'd have to intervene because his divine plan is already decided. If that's true, we're not living under actual free will, we only perceive it as free will.

2. God doesn't have a predetermined plan, and we have actual free will, and our actions have not been planned out beforehand.

On number 1. Isn't it in theory possible that God could know how everything plays out WITHOUT having planned it all? Thus leaving free will to do what it does and still knowing the outcome?

[Camazotz]

On number 1. Isn't it in theory possible that God could know how everything plays out WITHOUT having planned it all? Thus leaving free will to do what it does and still knowing the outcome?

Well doesn't God have a divine plan?

If not, I still hold that free will is just an illusion. We're not actually free to do anything, we're bound to follow the actions God already knows will happen. If I had a choice to go left or right, God knows I'll go left, therefore I'm not really "free." Like I said earlier, free will is "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion." I'm constrained to follow God's knowledge of what I'll choose. I can't actually choose right because that would go against God's knowledge; if I did choose right, then God would not be omniscient.

[Miserabilia]

And you didn't answer my question. Does him knowing what you are currently doing take away the freedom of choice you have in doing it?


YES.


I still don't see how there is no possibility of having free will AND God knowing the outcome.



If you honestly still don't understand after me explaining it 4 times and severl others too, and if you have ateast searched into the subjects, I suggest to give up because you're either misenterpetating it all, misreading it purposly, or have failed to read it in the first place.
I could go explain all the basics again, but really one google search should do it for ya.



Putting definitions aside for a moment, let me try and clarify what I am thinking:
If on one hand there is an idea that we are totally free to choose our own actions and God couldn't know any of it beforehand.
And the completely opposite idea is that our actions are totally predetermined and we only have an illusion of choice.


Alright.



I believe you call the first one free will and the second one determinism?


That is what they are, yes.


On number 1. Isn't it in theory possible that God could know how everything plays out WITHOUT having planned it all? Thus leaving free will to do what it does and still knowing the outcome?

No, that would contradic the whole idea of omniscience.

[Lovelife090994]

YES.



If you honestly still don't understand after me explaining it 4 times and severl others too, and if you have ateast searched into the subjects, I suggest to give up because you're either misenterpetating it all, misreading it purposly, or have failed to read it in the first place.
I could go explain all the basics again, but really one google search should do it for ya.




Alright.




That is what they are, yes.



No, that would contradic the whole idea of omniscience.

No it doesn't. God knowing what you'll do before you do doesn't take away free will. We don't know what he knows exactly and we don't know what we'll do before we have to choose. How can him knowing something we don't take away anything from us? We aren't perfect, but we don't know everything either. But how does this go to you again? I thought you were Atheistic? Wouldn't that alone be a reason to not care about what God thinks of you and whether or not you have free will?

[Miserabilia]

No it doesn't. God knowing what you'll do before you do doesn't take away free will. We don't know what he knows exactly and we don't know what we'll do before we have to choose. How can him knowing something we don't take away anything from us? We aren't perfect, but we don't know everything either. But how does this go to you again? I thought you were Atheistic? Wouldn't that alone be a reason to not care about what God thinks of you and whether or not you have free will?

Kekkalicious.
I'm speaking hypotheticaly. The point of the thread was asking a question to theists about omniscience with an interesting philosophical and scientifical topic.
I am atheistic and I was interested in hearing what interpertations there would be religiously.
I would like to point out athiesm has nothing to do with whether or not someone is interested in the concept of free will.

[Lovelife090994]

Kekkalicious.
I'm speaking hypotheticaly. The point of the thread was asking a question to theists about omniscience with an interesting philosophical and scientifical topic.
I am atheistic and I was interested in hearing what interpertations there would be religiously.
I would like to point out athiesm has nothing to do with whether or not someone is interested in the concept of free will.

True, but it doesn't even coincide with your beliefs. It doesn't even affect you personally if you are ambivalent or impermeable to the subject.

[Music Lover]

Well doesn't God have a divine plan?

Yes he does, that is why I was talking "in theory" (which I should have been saying for a good part of this debate).
But still I believe the whole truth is more complicated than either free will or determinism.

If not, I still hold that free will is just an illusion. We're not actually free to do anything, we're bound to follow the actions God already knows will happen. If I had a choice to go left or right, God knows I'll go left, therefore I'm not really "free." Like I said earlier, free will is "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion." I'm constrained to follow God's knowledge of what I'll choose. I can't actually choose right because that would go against God's knowledge; if I did choose right, then God would not be omniscient.

And here is a difference in our viewpoints: You seem to believe God travels through time and thus predicts our actions.
For a thought experiment, view God as being ONLY at the end of the timeline with a perfectly accurate knowledge on history. That doesn't take away free will.
If God can observe all moments and see them such that he views them from his perspective as 'now', isn't it essentially the same as having a complete knowledge of history, in that it doesn't take away the freedom of our actions.

YES.


If there is a human observer in your room while you are reading a book, does that take away the freedom of your actions? No, right?

Why should God as an observer be any different?

If you honestly still don't understand after me explaining it 4 times and severl others too, and if you have ateast searched into the subjects, I suggest to give up because you're either misenterpetating it all, misreading it purposly, or have failed to read it in the first place.
I could go explain all the basics again, but really one google search should do it for ya.

First of all, apologies for at some point confusing predestination and determinism, since that resulted in huge communication gaps.

Now I don't see how omniscience requires determinism. Determinism says "It couldn't have been anyway else". Omniscience only says "That being knows everything"
So if something COULD have been different, but wasn't, and god knew it all, that is not pure determinism, but something very similar.

No, that would contradic the whole idea of omniscience.

What in free will contradicts omniscience? Why should omniscience have to equal determinism?

[Miserabilia]

If there is a human observer in your room while you are reading a book, does that take away the freedom of your actions? No, right?

Why should God as an observer be any different?



First of all, apologies for at some point confusing predestination and determinism, since that resulted in huge communication gaps.

Now I don't see how omniscience requires determinism. Determinism says "It couldn't have been anyway else". Omniscience only says "That being knows everything"
So if something COULD have been different, but wasn't, and god knew it all, that is not pure determinism, but something very similar.



What in free will contradicts omniscience? Why should omniscience have to equal determinism?

tbh I don't really know how to explain further besides repeating myself.

Omniscience eliminates free will from existing.
Free will means choices are independent of previous and future events, omniscience means the knowing of all current previous and future events, including choices themselves, which eliminates the concept of free will.

True, but it doesn't even coincide with your beliefs. It doesn't even affect you personally if you are ambivalent or impermeable to the subject.

That kek moment when it does "coincide with [my] beleifs", because these are my beleifs. Not sure what you mean otherwise.
It also doesn't effect me personaly if the world is 4 or 11 dimension but I'd still be interested to know.

[Camazotz]

Yes he does, that is why I was talking "in theory" (which I should have been saying for a good part of this debate).
But still I believe the whole truth is more complicated than either free will or determinism.

And here is a difference in our viewpoints: You seem to believe God travels through time and thus predicts our actions.
For a thought experiment, view God as being ONLY at the end of the timeline with a perfectly accurate knowledge on history. That doesn't take away free will.
If God can observe all moments and see them such that he views them from his perspective as 'now', isn't it essentially the same as having a complete knowledge of history, in that it doesn't take away the freedom of our actions.

If God only exists in the future, and what we're experiencing right now is the past, then he can't interact with the present. You're right that this would mean we do have free will, but this would mean God isn't omnipotent or omniscient. He's only aware of what we do after the fact.

So yeah, if you're theory was right, we could have free will; it would just mean God isn't all-powerful or all-knowing. And I don't think that's an argument you'd want to make.

[Gamma Male]

If God is all knowing, he knows with absolute certainty how we'll all act. If he knows with absolute certainty how we'll all act, it isn't possible for us to act any other way. If it isn't possible for us to act any other way, we don't have free will. We have the illusion of free will, but we don't actually have free will.

[Lovelife090994]

God transcends tine. God goes over human comprehension. His ways to man are strange. But one thing he is; is fair. God made man and granted him with his people dominion over the Earth. We do as we please. People live differently by choice and culture, and people typically learn to accept differences at some point. If God wanted us as slaves then we'd all be slaves to the Bible. We are not that way. God sets us free, and whosoever shall follow God shall be have freedom and life for all eternity. Period, written in diamond.

[Miserabilia]

God transcends tine. God goes over human comprehension. His ways to man are strange. But one thing he is; is fair. God made man and granted him with his people dominion over the Earth. We do as we please. People live differently by choice and culture, and people typically learn to accept differences at some point. If God wanted us as slaves then we'd all be slaves to the Bible. We are not that way. God sets us free, and whosoever shall follow God shall be have freedom and life for all eternity. Period, written in diamond.

Irrelevant to the debate which is about free will and determinism.
We are not saying the christian god is forcing anyone to be christian or that other cultures and religions do not exist, or that we are slaves to god.
The moment god knows the entire timeline, determinism exist, by DEFINITION.
There's no going around it.

More denying of that simple fact really makes me wonder if there's an answer to the original post problem at all, because it seems like this has become the entire point of the thread by now.

[Lovelife090994]

Irrelevant to the debate which is about free will and determinism.
We are not saying the christian god is forcing anyone to be christian or that other cultures and religions do not exist, or that we are slaves to god.
The moment god knows the entire timeline, determinism exist, by DEFINITION.
There's no going around it.

More denying of that simple fact really makes me wonder if there's an answer to the original post problem at all, because it seems like this has become the entire point of the thread by now.

Every question can have an answer. Me and others have gave the answer? It's both. God iss all knowing and in the past, present, future, and over but he let's us live in the present so we do as we wish. Notice how even things ungodly can exist. If God wanted to stop man he would have done so years ago. I brought up this because God is a god of freedom so you can serve him or not and still live freely. It is something many non-Christians have difficulty grasping. Believing in God is more than being labeled Christian (or not).

We are saying that God knowing more about you than you doesn't jeopordize your will. Remember, God made you. He's supposed to know you. It's just that many people don't think that way so they see free will as impossible. Free will is just nothing more than a free mind and body. Even God blesses those society shuns and shames as ungodly.

[Miserabilia]

Every question can have an answer. Me and others have gave the answer? It's both. God iss all knowing and in the past, present, future, and over but he let's us live in the present so we do as we wish. Notice how even things ungodly can exist. If God wanted to stop man he would have done so years ago. I brought up this because God is a god of freedom so you can serve him or not and still live freely. It is something many non-Christians have difficulty grasping. Believing in God is more than being labeled Christian (or not).

We are saying that God knowing more about you than you doesn't jeopordize your will. Remember, God made you. He's supposed to know you. It's just that many people don't think that way so they see free will as impossible. Free will is just nothing more than a free mind and body. Even God blesses those society shuns and shames as ungodly.

This isn't a society or cultural debate, this is about philosophical scientifical heck even metaphysical free will and determinism.
I don't think you're quite seeing the point of the problem in the original post and I'm not going to explain again why it's one way or the other, and the quesion can't be avoided by saying it's both.

[Lovelife090994]

This isn't a society or cultural debate, this is about philosophical scientifical heck even metaphysical free will and determinism.
I don't think you're quite seeing the point of the problem in the original post and I'm not going to explain again why it's one way or the other, and the quesion can't be avoided by saying it's both.

Well, like it or not a question of faith and God can have it's answer in the Bible. If you want something straight-lined then try finding answers and stripping away what you don't like. But, the answer is not as complex as you're making it. It's simply that God gave man free will. You can be atheist and still live well, yes? God doesn't look down at those not with Him to curse them. He loves us all and gave us our will to live as we please. I am free to talk to you. I think for myself. How is that not free will? To say it doesn't exist is to say we are all slaves. The only thing we are a slave to is time. Time always goes forward and stops for no one. It's what you with time that makes a difference.

[Harry Smith]

These religion threads make me actually question humanity, do people not realize how irrational the majority of arguments put forward by Christians are. To be honest the funniest thing is how the constant use of 'He' when referring to God shows how like gender God is just something constructed by humans

[Were]

Not everyone in the world is Christian. While most Christians preach that God loves the people and hates the sin, some take this to the extreme and reverse the love the people who sin to hate the people who sin. And you never know someone's life story. Me as a non-straight Christian I have been bombarded by a lot of negative Christian rhetoric. So many are so quick to judge that they forget they are hurting hearts in the process. I never hated them though. I think God does truly love us all, but one thing is certain; he doesn't love sin. Although it's hard to say whether or not homosexuality and the like are sins, since so many try to say that since homosexuals sin they are not welcome to God. Well, that's funny because I'm pretty sure we all sin.



yes,but if you pretty know it well that homosexuality is sin,why do you go ahead to sin deliberately then?

[Gamma Male]

Well, like it or not a question of faith and God can have it's answer in the Bible. If you want something straight-lined then try finding answers and stripping away what you don't like. But, the answer is not as complex as you're making it. It's simply that God gave man free will. You can be atheist and still live well, yes? God doesn't look down at those not with Him to curse them. He loves us all and gave us our will to live as we please. I am free to talk to you. I think for myself. How is that not free will? To say it doesn't exist is to say we are all slaves. The only thing we are a slave to is time. Time always goes forward and stops for no one. It's what you with time that makes a difference.

Can you just answer a couple of YES or NO questions for me? Please? That would make things much simpler.

1 Does God know everything?

2 If God knows everything, doesn't that mean, by definition, that it's impossible for us to be acting any other way?

3 If it's impossible for us to be acting any other way, doesn't that mean we can't choose not to act any other way?