Obama's legacy

[Gamma Male]

So, Barack Obamas two terms are almost up. What'd you guys think of him? I would rate him about average. I was gonna say slighty below average, but given the giant shitstorm he inherited from Bush I've decided to cut him some slack.

Guantanamo Bay is still up and running, his "most transparent presidency in history!" promise turned out to be complete bullshit, and he hasn't made nearly enough progress with social issues.

What do you guys think?

[Camazotz]

It's way too early to tell. My history teacher told me that it takes at least 20 years to actually see the affects of a particular president and how their policies actually shaped the country. As dumb as George W. Bush seemed at the time, he may be perceived as entirely different in a couple decades.

At this point, I would agree that he was just about average, although I think he's the most fun president we've had since... ever? I don't know, maybe it's because he's somewhat young, but he felt more of an average guy. I'm pretty independent regarding politics, so I don't have any hate against him because "he's a dirty, illegal liberal" but I don't think he lived up to the expectations at all. I guess we'll have to see, but I think he's more relatable than pretty much any GOP candidate.

[Typhlosion]

Well, he got Osama.

[Miserabilia]

I have no idea, not really that much into american presidancy.

[thatcountrykid]

Well, he got Osama.

No CIA and navy seals did. He just said yes.

[Dalcourt]

I'd say average. It's true as Camazotz said that it takes longer to see how he had affected the country. But yeah, he kinda meant well but didn't really do anything he promised there are still so many issues unsolved he wanted to tackle like e.g. Guantanamo Bay as you rightly pointed out and I don't even want to begin about all the social issues. Most people around here say he was not average but really bad but I think he had alot of crap left by Bush to deal with and two periods are just not enough to get this halfway done.

[tovaris]

he swore on the bible, so his good(if it is just) should punish him for lying and decieving.
May he burn in hel.

[phuckphace]

politically Obama is your standard, garden-variety double-talking Washington politician. in public he's skilled at reading off feel-good progressive talking points from a teleprompter, in practice he's a neoliberal, globalist and multimillionaire with personal interests strongly opposed to the interests of the working class. he is personally responsible for appointing the least-qualified and deserving justice in SCOTUS history, Sonia Sotomayor, who looks more like an inner-city DMV clerk or McDonalds employee than a justice of our highest court. Sotomayor, like the President who appointed her, was picked more for her Oppressed Minority status and progressive bent than actual judicial experience and qualifications. (Antonin Scalia frequently trolls her every time she gives one of her petulant dissents which is funny to watch.)

Obama's legacy won't be all that important for too long. eventually he'll be seen for what he was: an ineffective leader skilled only at spouting empty platitudes while Rome burned.

[Music Lover]

Hasn't he gone back on his word quite a bit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsRfrcit05M
Here he criticises executive orders, and promises to not use them to circumvent congress. And to uphold the constitution.
Then this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwRTZcrHwHQ He actually brags about how many executive orders he's made. And how many he is going to do.
Then he goes on to say HE is going to create jobs from the bottom up... WTF? That is about as top-down as you can get. Kinda the opposite of grassroots.

Yeah and the whole Benghazi thing, which I've only seen a hint of. Looks ugly and will probably get even uglier as more facts are found.

[Harry Smith]

No CIA and navy seals did. He just said yes.

Surely this is the one thing the GOP must love Obama for, no matter what Obama does your quite clearly not going to support it so just give up. I'm sure it required a lot of skill to get off a helicopter and shot a 60 year old man

Obama tried to close Guantanamo bay, blame the GOP and congress for that. There's only so much that he can do

[CosmicNoodle]

Well, at least he's not a republican...I can only pray your next president is a liberal and not a republican

[thatcountrykid]

Surely this is the one thing the GOP must love Obama for, no matter what Obama does your quite clearly not going to support it so just give up. I'm sure it required a lot of skill to get off a helicopter and shot a 60 year old man

Obama tried to close Guantanamo bay, blame the GOP and congress for that. There's only so much that he can do

Obama did no work for the bin laden raid. I'd like to see him gather that much intelligence of decades, go through the seal training, fly a brand new type of helicopter through the night into Pakistani airspace and land in that compound. He would not do it. He's like everyother leader right now who gotheir by kissing ass not doing work.

[Stronk Serb]

Obama did no work for the bin laden raid. I'd like to see him gather that much intelligence of decades, go through the seal training, fly a brand new type of helicopter through the night into Pakistani airspace and land in that compound. He would not do it. He's like everyother leader right now who gotheir by kissing ass not doing work.

So, by your definition, Hitler and Goering were good leaders? Goering was a WWI fighter pilot and he lead the Luftwaffe. In reality he was a fat, morphine-addicted swine. Hitler- fought in WWI in the trenches. By your logic, they were good leaders? About killing Osama, it didn't really matter if they went in a fancy helicopter or not. They could've gone in a pink OH-6 "Little Bird" with all lights on, pentagrams instead of a coat of arms and "Ave Pater Lucifer, 666" written on it while blasting Kreator or some other hardcore metal band at 160 decibels, unloaded a bunch of kids armed with AK-47s. It would have been the same, or everyone would panic, making it even easier.

[nklarke]

I would say easily the worst US president in US history.

[Stronk Serb]

I would say easily the worst US president in US history.

What about Bush? His crappy economic policies caused so much problems.

[Miserabilia]

I would say easily the worst US president in US history.

That's quite the statement, why?

[Music Lover]

Some facts about Benghazi:
http://www.glennbeck.com/2013/05/14/glenn-heres-the-truth-on-benghazi/
http://www.glennbeck.com/2013/05/14/the-top-20-benghazi-lies/

Disgusting. I wouldn't trust Obama or his administration AT ALL after this.

[AgentHomo]

So, Barack Obamas two terms are almost up. What'd you guys think of him? I would rate him about average. I was gonna say slighty below average, but given the giant shitstorm he inherited from Bush I've decided to cut him some slack.


He deserves a lot of slack. And I mean a lot. On a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being absolute best, I'd put him at a 7. Yeah, he didn't deliver promises, but he helped kill DADT, helped legalize same sex marriage in several states, more than any presidential term in American history actually. The world's most feared terrorist leader was killed at his precise command. He passed Obamacare, but it's only having trouble because of the right wing nut jobs trying to block it. He helped bring thousands of troops home and slowed down the Bush era oil wars considerably. The debt was already falling because of Bush, and when Obama came in Congress was inhabit aged by those buffoons we call Republicans who started spending so much, increasing our debt and blamed Obama. I love Obama. Yes he is human and he made mistakes, but he was much better than Bush. Much better. I just hope we don't get a right wing President next time or else everything good in the last 6 years will be shitted on.

[Gamma Male]

I would say easily the worst US president in US history.

Why's that?

[Harry Smith]

Obama did no work for the bin laden raid. I'd like to see him gather that much intelligence of decades, go through the seal training, fly a brand new type of helicopter through the night into Pakistani airspace and land in that compound. He would not do it. He's like everyother leader right now who gotheir by kissing ass not doing work.

Wait-you want a 50 year old lawyer from Chicago to lead a military attack? That sounds smart, I think we should also have Hilitary Clinton flying the Apache, any why not give Joe Biden command of the Navy, because history shows us that when politicians take direct control of the Army it goes well-oh wait it doesn't.

I mean if you think Obama should carry out military missions/planning then you've got some pretty wacko ideas about military history, you know in WW2 do you think FDR planned D-day? Do you think Churchill flew the spitfires? Do you think Stalin drove the T-34's. I know you want to play some sort of anti-Establishment card by pretending that this lazy president does no work but quire frankly you're wrong. The role of the President isn't to carry out military assaults, or to plan them. The president has something called the Joint Chief of Staffs, this is a group of senior military commanders who give the President advice on military matters, Obama like Kennedy and FDR would of met with them, and discussed the various options. Obama would of had to sign of this decision, so by default the decision was his to make. I don't really understand why you dislike Obama on the basis that he isn't planning military assaults, I mean if he did try, no doubt you would then criticize him for being too involved, poor old Barack is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The right of America have became a joke if your having to criticize Obama on the basis that he isn't leading the armed forces into battle-he's not George Washington

[thatcountrykid]

So, by your definition, Hitler and Goering were good leaders? Goering was a WWI fighter pilot and he lead the Luftwaffe. In reality he was a fat, morphine-addicted swine. Hitler- fought in WWI in the trenches. By your logic, they were good leaders? About killing Osama, it didn't really matter if they went in a fancy helicopter or not. They could've gone in a pink OH-6 "Little Bird" with all lights on, pentagrams instead of a coat of arms and "Ave Pater Lucifer, 666" written on it while blasting Kreator or some other hardcore metal band at 160 decibels, unloaded a bunch of kids armed with AK-47s. It would have been the same, or everyone would panic, making it even easier.

Hitler was a good leader. The flaw was his ideals. A raid into Pakistan without even the pakis knowing till after was precision. It would not have had the same effect.

Wait-you want a 50 year old lawyer from Chicago to lead a military attack? That sounds smart, I think we should also have Hilitary Clinton flying the Apache, any why not give Joe Biden command of the Navy, because history shows us that when politicians take direct control of the Army it goes well-oh wait it doesn't.

I mean if you think Obama should carry out military missions/planning then you've got some pretty wacko ideas about military history, you know in WW2 do you think FDR planned D-day? Do you think Churchill flew the spitfires? Do you think Stalin drove the T-34's. I know you want to play some sort of anti-Establishment card by pretending that this lazy president does no work but quire frankly you're wrong. The role of the President isn't to carry out military assaults, or to plan them. The president has something called the Joint Chief of Staffs, this is a group of senior military commanders who give the President advice on military matters, Obama like Kennedy and FDR would of met with them, and discussed the various options. Obama would of had to sign of this decision, so by default the decision was his to make. I don't really understand why you dislike Obama on the basis that he isn't planning military assaults, I mean if he did try, no doubt you would then criticize him for being too involved, poor old Barack is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The right of America have became a joke if your having to criticize Obama on the basis that he isn't leading the armed forces into battle-he's not George Washington

No what I'm saying is that Obama should not be receiving credit for the raid because he did none of that work and could not have done any of it.

[Stronk Serb]

Hitler was a good leader. The flaw was his ideals. A raid into Pakistan without even the pakis knowing till after was precision. It would not have had the same effect.



No what I'm saying is that Obama should not be receiving credit for the raid because he did none of that work and could not have done any of it.

Hitler was an awful wartime leader. His delusions costed him the war. So it took decades of spying and wasting money to find a 60 year old man in his house.

[thatcountrykid]

Hitler was an awful wartime leader. His delusions costed him the war. So it took decades of spying and wasting money to find a 60 year old man in his house.

It wasn't a waste. We killed the leader and received countless amounts of Intel on one of the largest terrorist organizations.

[Harry Smith]

Hitler was a good leader. The flaw was his ideals. A raid into Pakistan without even the pakis knowing till after was precision. It would not have had the same effect.



No what I'm saying is that Obama should not be receiving credit for the raid because he did none of that work and could not have done any of it.

Hah-please Hitler wasn't a good leader in any sense. I love that people assume that Hitler must of been good since he they managed to beat France in 1940-all Hitler did was let his generals Von Manstein plan the operation-he wasn't a good leader in any sense.

He lost the war when he told his Panzers to stop at the beach in 1940-a good leader wouldn't let 250,000 men escape across the sea.

He did work for the raid, my whole point is that your clearly baised towards the military who are to be honest fucking useless at politics, in the same way that Congress would be useless on a battlefield.

If you look at the raid Obama had a pretty active role-he would of had to call the Pakistan PM if they got discovered, and then convince him to trust him.

It's simply wrong to say Obama did none of the work because in being commander in chief he had to sanction the attack, which shows in fact he did do some work

[thatcountrykid]

Hah-please Hitler wasn't a good leader in any sense. I love that people assume that Hitler must of been good since he they managed to beat France in 1940-all Hitler did was let his generals Von Manstein plan the operation-he wasn't a good leader in any sense.

He lost the war when he told his Panzers to stop at the beach in 1940-a good leader wouldn't let 250,000 men escape across the sea.

He did work for the raid, my whole point is that your clearly baised towards the military who are to be honest fucking useless at politics, in the same way that Congress would be useless on a battlefield.

If you look at the raid Obama had a pretty active role-he would of had to call the Pakistan PM if they got discovered, and then convince him to trust him.

It's simply wrong to say Obama did none of the work because in being commander in chief he had to sanction the attack, which shows in fact he did do some work

They brought him the plan and he said yes. That's all. No the military doesnt do politics but they sure are better than congress.

[Harry Smith]

They brought him the plan and he said yes. That's all. No the military doesnt do politics but they sure are better than congress.

Not really-there were a number of options presented to Obama including a B-2 bombing but he rejected that due to civilian damage, and a lack of proof. Debunked!

[thatcountrykid]

Not really-there were a number of options presented to Obama including a B-2 bombing but he rejected that due to civilian damage, and a lack of proof. Debunked!

Ok so he said no to a plan. That's easier than than forming multiple plans.

[Harry Smith]

Ok so he said no to a plan. That's easier than than forming multiple plans.

ok-if Obama did plan the operation all himself, and it failed would you complain?

[thatcountrykid]

ok-if Obama did plan the operation all himself, and it failed would you complain?

No because we have made plans before that failed. It's all a risk. All I'm saying is yeah he said yes but he didn't do really any work and shouldn't get credit.

[TheBigUnit]

although I think he's the most fun president we've had since... ever? I don't know, maybe it's \.

I think JFK was the most fun pres in us history but obama is the most relateable if your really look at it

Obamas legacy might revolve around healthcare

[Stronk Serb]

It wasn't a waste. We killed the leader and received countless amounts of Intel on one of the largest terrorist organizations.

And that accomplished what? You cut of one head of the hydra. How much will grow when you cut off the next?

[thatcountrykid]

And that accomplished what? You cut of one head of the hydra. How much will grow when you cut off the next?

We weaked the organization and earned intel for future plans of attack. We haven't seen much from al queda since.

[DerBear]

I haven't followed his second term but I'd say he's done a good job considering what he inherited when he got the job.

[Vlerchan]

We weaked the organization and earned intel for future plans of attack. We haven't seen much from al queda since.
I've no idea how you managed to miss the last few years of the Syrian civil war given the amount of coverage it has gotten.

[thatcountrykid]

I've no idea how you managed to miss the last few years of the Syrian civil war given the amount of coverage it has gotten.

Cause honestly I don't give a shit a about Syrians civil war.

[Vlerchan]

Cause honestly I don't give a shit a about Syrians civil war.
Okay, well your claim about Al Queda is false, because they have been quite active in the Syrian civil war.

[Stronk Serb]

We weaked the organization and earned intel for future plans of attack. We haven't seen much from al queda since.

You armed them in Syria.

[Vlerchan]

You basically armed them in Syria.
No. They did arm them.

There's no 'basically' about it.

[Stronk Serb]

No. They did arm them.

There's no 'basically' about it.

Sorry, my bad.

[thatcountrykid]

Okay, well your claim about Al Queda is false, because they have been quite active in the Syrian civil war.

When I say activity I mean actual threats against us till just recently.

[Capto]

When I say activity I mean actual threats against us till just recently.

Precisely what the Syrian Civil War is. Have you looked at a map of the Middle East?

[Harry Smith]

When I say activity I mean actual threats against us till just recently.

Wait I'm confused, so your happy Al-Qaeda have been in your words 'defeated', yet you don't want to give Obama any credit for that. Sounds real smart

[thatcountrykid]

Wait I'm confused, so your happy Al-Qaeda have been in your words 'defeated', yet you don't want to give Obama any credit for that. Sounds real smart

I'm saying al queda was felt a major blow and yes he his president and did sign off on it and should get credit for THAT, the CIA, FBI, and navy seals deserve more credit.

[Harry Smith]

I'm saying al queda was felt a major blow and yes he his president and did sign off on it and should get credit for THAT, the CIA, FBI, and navy seals deserve more credit.

Not really-if anything they get more credit. See the image below

http://i.imgur.com/Zzh5ger.jpg

[ksdnfkfr]

I would say easily the worst US president in US history.What about Bush? His crappy economic policies caused so much problems.

I'm impartial; they both suck(ed).

[Stronk Serb]

I'm impartial; they both suck(ed).

Bush's economic policies led to the global economic crisis, but Obama ruined it with Obamacare

[thatcountrykid]

Not really-if anything they get more credit. See the image below

image (http://i.imgur.com/Zzh5ger.jpg)

So your gonna use a quote from a comedian who's job is to be sarcastic.makes sense.

[Harry Smith]

So your gonna use a quote from a comedian who's job is to be sarcastic.makes sense.

The point is still correct-the CIA don't deserve any credit for taking 10 years to find a 60 year old man in his house. Your also not in much of a position to talk about sense considering you didn't know that a civil war was taking place in syria

[thatcountrykid]

The point is still correct-the CIA don't deserve any credit for taking 10 years to find a 60 year old man in his house. Your also not in much of a position to talk about sense considering you didn't know that a civil war was taking place in syria

He was in Pakistan 2 miles from their own West Point. That's the last place to look. Bin laden was completely off the grid never leaving the house for anything.

And I didn't know about Syria because I don't give a fuck about them. They make no difference to me.

[Music Lover]

He was in Pakistan 2 miles from their own West Point. That's the last place to look.

So is this the same reason a mum who's trying to get their kid to take a bath won't look in the bathtub?

[thatcountrykid]

So is this the same reason a mum who's trying to get their kid to take a bath won't look in the bathtub?

There's a huge fuckin difference. Don't even try that shit

[Harry Smith]

He was in Pakistan 2 miles from their own West Point. That's the last place to look. Bin laden was completely off the grid never leaving the house for anything.

And I didn't know about Syria because I don't give a fuck about them. They make no difference to me.

Pakistan and west point is a bit of an oxymoron, considering the country is pretty corrupt and pro Taliban it would be one of the first places I'd look after your troops lost him in Toro Bora in 2001, plus your own attitude on Syria is making your overall debate look much weaker as you're coming across like you don't really care/understand about global politics but instead live in some right wing bubble

There's a huge fuckin difference. Don't even try that shit

Not really-I don't understand how a 10 year wait to get a man with a 25 million pound bounty is a success

[Faolan]

I like him as a president because he's the first one to openly support gay marriage while in office, which is a huge step for the presidency. And Obamacare's been hugely important, regardless of what conservatives say to the contrary.

[phuckphace]

I just saw this post and couldn't help responding, it's that bad.

Yeah, he didn't deliver promises, but he helped kill DADT, helped legalize same sex marriage in several states, more than any presidential term in American history actually.

you're hilariously obsessed with gay rights. gay marriage and the repeal of DADT are empty symbolic gestures that effect barely ~5% of the US population, big deal. we shouldn't be having protracted legal battles over trifles. but hey, MUH RIGHTS are all that matter, aren't they?

it all kinda reminds me of Ted Kaczynski's short story Ship of Fools (http://www.sacredfools.org/crimescene/casefiles/s2/shipoffoolsstory.htm). excerpt:

The cabin boy this time was getting angry.

"You damn fools!" he shouted. "Don’t you see what the captain and the mates are doing? They’re keeping you occupied with your trivial grievances about blankets and wages and the dog being kicked so that you won’t think about what is really wrong with this ship --– that it’s getting farther and farther to the north and we’re all going to be drowned. If just a few of you would come to your senses, get together, and charge the poop deck, we could turn this ship around and save ourselves. But all you do is whine about petty little issues like working conditions and crap games and the right to suck cocks."

The passengers and the crew were incensed. "Petty!!" cried the Mexican, "Do you think it’s reasonable that I get only three-fourths the wages of an Anglo sailor? Is that petty? "How can you call my grievance trivial? shouted the bosun. "Don’t you know how humiliating it is to be called a fruit?" "Kicking the dog is not a ‘petty little issue!’" screamed the animal-lover. "It’s heartless, cruel, and brutal!" "Alright then," answered the cabin boy. "These issues are not petty and trivial. Kicking the dog is cruel and brutal and it is humiliating to be called a fruit. But in comparison to our real problem – in comparison to the fact that the ship is still heading north – your grievances are petty and trivial, because if we don’t get this ship turned around soon, we’re all going to drown." "Fascist!" said the professor. "Counterrevolutionary!" said the lady passenger.

And all of the passengers and crew chimed in one after another, calling the cabin boy a fascist and a counterrevolutionary. They pushed him away and went back to grumbling about wages, and about blankets for women, and about the right to suck cocks, and about how the dog was treated. The ship kept sailing north, and after a while it was crushed between two icebergs and everyone drowned.

I'm the cabin boy. (you're welcome btw)

The world's most feared terrorist leader was killed at his precise command.

just the like the innocents who were also killed by his drones?

He passed Obamacare, but it's only having trouble because of the right wing nut jobs trying to block it.

Obamacare is "having trouble" because it's a steaming pile of shit that turned an already bad healthcare system into an even more bureaucratic nightmare (which will always happen when private, for-profit insurance companies are allowed to manage public health. and that's exactly what Obamacare is.) it's shit, has always been shit from Day 1, and will continue to be shit until it's repealed. it's obvious that you haven't actually read up on what Obamacare really does or how it works, and are only interested in spewing sophomoric, partisan rhetoric. It has Obama's name on it so it must be PROGRESS!

He helped bring thousands of troops home and slowed down the Bush era oil wars considerably.

I think you mean, he campaigned on an empty promise to end the foreign occupations as soon as he took office, then prolonged the occupation for its own convenience. any mention of his using NATO to topple the Libyan government and thus gain access to Libya's oil reserves is also curiously absent.

The debt was already falling because of Bush, and when Obama came in Congress was inhabit aged by those buffoons we call Republicans who started spending so much, increasing our debt and blamed Obama. I love Obama. Yes he is human and he made mistakes, but he was much better than Bush. Much better. I just hope we don't get a right wing President next time or else everything good in the last 6 years will be shitted on.

more incoherent partisan nonsense. there's no functional difference between Republicans and Democrats and you're kidding yourself if you think there is.

[Harry Smith]

you're hilariously obsessed with gay rights. gay marriage and the repeal of DADT are empty symbolic gestures that effect barely ~5% of the US population, big deal. we shouldn't be having protracted legal battles over trifles. but hey, MUH RIGHTS are all that matter, aren't they?

I think it's a pretty blank statement to claim that they are empty symbolic gestures, I mean I'd say that to the large part civil unions were mostly symbolic but in supporting gay marriage I think it sends out a good signal. On a deeply personal level it's a massive thing for both gay and straight people that they can get married and be allowed to have equal rights. I really don't think that government policy should be decided on the basis of what % of society it helps either-you can't say a law is bad because it only helps 5% of people

I also never understand this ridiculous claim (used by opponents of gay marriage) that you have to somehow focus on the bigger issues in society-the government is able to focus on introducing gay marriage whilst also bringing in progressive ideas. It's not a case of either or

[phuckphace]

I think it's a pretty blank statement to claim that they are empty symbolic gestures, I mean I'd say that to the large part civil unions were mostly symbolic but in supporting gay marriage I think it sends out a good signal. On a deeply personal level it's a massive thing for both gay and straight people that they can get married and be allowed to have equal rights.

...so yeah, it's symbolic.

rights don't exist until the government grants them to you. the idea that everyone is entitled to X or Y in theory is nonsense.

I also never understand this ridiculous claim (used by opponents of gay marriage) that you have to somehow focus on the bigger issues in society-the government is able to focus on introducing gay marriage whilst also bringing in progressive ideas. It's not a case of either or

I don't necessarily oppose it in theory, but being gay myself I've observed firsthand off-the-charts levels of narcissism and entitlement in the LGBT "community," and most of their shrieking appears fueled more by hatred and loathing for heterosexuals and their way of life than a legitimate civil rights issue (despite all claims to the contrary.) it's one of the few cases where I'm inclined to agree with the right-wingers, i.e. there really is a gay agenda that has little to do with gay rights and more about sticking it to ugh heteronormative bigots. this was especially obvious during the debacles surrounding the Chic-fil-A and Mozilla controversies. the fact that SOMEONE OUT THERE DOESN'T LIKE ME!!!!11!!!! becomes an incident of any significance is telling enough.

maybe it's just my WASP upbringing, but I've always felt perfectly at home amongst Christians who vote Republican, despite being an atheist, in the closet and quite socialist. they're harmless and I see no reason to antagonize them the way a lot of gay people seem intent on doing.

[Harry Smith]

...so yeah, it's symbolic.

rights don't exist until the government grants them to you. the idea that everyone is entitled to X or Y in theory is nonsense.



I don't necessarily oppose it in theory, but being gay myself I've observed firsthand off-the-charts levels of narcissism and entitlement in the LGBT "community," and most of their shrieking appears fueled more by hatred and loathing for heterosexuals and their way of life than a legitimate civil rights issue (despite all claims to the contrary.) it's one of the few cases where I'm inclined to agree with the right-wingers, i.e. there really is a gay agenda that has little to do with gay rights and more about sticking it to ugh heteronormative bigots. this was especially obvious during the debacles surrounding the Chic-fil-A and Mozilla "incidents." the fact that SOMEONE OUT THERE DOESN'T LIKE ME becomes an "incident" is telling enough.

maybe it's just my WASP upbringing, but I've always felt perfectly at home amongst Christians who vote Republican, despite being in the closet and quite socialist. they're harmless and I see no reason to antagonize them the way a lot of gay people seem intent on doing.

Obviously the system in America is different, but isn't it assumed that the supreme court will have to make a ruling on it soon, as the Federal courts have started over turning bans. I mean that's how it becomes more than symbolic across the whole of the US-when the Supreme court get involved and enforce it-although I admit that won't solve everything in the same way that Roe vs Wade, and Brown vs BOE didn't solve the issue for abortion/civil rights.

Yeah the Chic-fil-A seemed strange, I mean it's hardly surprising that a southern conservative is going to be opposed to gay marriage. The thing I find with Republicans, is that whilst they're gay rights policies are pretty crap it's backed up by there other pretty crap policies on issues like the Death Penalty and Gun rights