Multiculturalism: Yes or No?

[Living For Love]

In my opinion, I think there must be a good amount of restrictions on immigration and emigration policies. If people want to live in another country, it's their obligation to fit into the mainstream culture. What's the point of having cultural enclaves inside cities, Chinatowns and stuff like that? Different cultures living in the same place but without any connection is not multiculturalism, it's segregation and it only leads to discrimination, racism and social problems. And the worse is, not only immigrants, most of the times, don't contribute to the growth of our economy, but they also parasite our NHS and our social security system. Here we have something called "RSI", which is basically an income the government gives to certain people (gypsies, for instance) who simply don't want to work and live only on that income. They think it's a right they have, but it's not, it's a privilege. Adding to that, different cultures often clash with each other. Every time I hear on the news about one more police raid in Lisbon, there are always some kind of immigrant community involved. They live in miserable neighbourhoods with no conditions, isolated from everyone else, and spent their days either stealing or doing absolutely nothing, feeding from the income our government gives them freely.

So, are you in favour of a multicultural society or not?

[ThatGuy13]

I myself live in a multicultural society and find that things are fine until people start barging their beliefs and religions in expecting everyone to believe them and follow them, this completely ruins it. I find the best multicultural society is one where people carry out their traditions but do not regard their beliefs as completely correct or that no ethnicity places itself over the other.

[Harry Smith]

In my opinion, I think there must be a good amount of restrictions on immigration and emigration policies. If people want to live in another country, it's their obligation to fit into the mainstream culture. What's the point of having cultural enclaves inside cities, Chinatowns and stuff like that? Different cultures living in the same place but without any connection is not multiculturalism, it's segregation and it only leads to discrimination, racism and social problems. And the worse is, not only immigrants, most of the times, don't contribute to the growth of our economy, but they also parasite our NHS and our social security system. Here we have something called "RSI", which is basically an income the government gives to certain people (gypsies, for instance) who simply don't want to work and live only on that income. They think it's a right they have, but it's not, it's a privilege. Adding to that, different cultures often clash with each other. Every time I hear on the news about one more police raid in Lisbon, there are always some kind of immigrant community involved. They live in miserable neighbourhoods with no conditions, isolated from everyone else, and spent their days either stealing or doing absolutely nothing, feeding from the income our government gives them freely.

So, are you in favour of a multicultural society or not?

I'm not sure about portugal but in the UK the numbers speak for itself, I don't like how the immigration debate has turned into mud slinging with the right claiming that they come over here, take our jobs and rape our land etc. I mean if your going to debate the issue use evidence not just rhetoric.

In the UK 40% of the NHS staff are migrants
Immigrants are 70% less likely to take benefits
They contribute 10% to the economy, and take out 9% in benefits

[Living For Love]

I'm not sure about portugal but in the UK the numbers speak for itself, I don't like how the immigration debate has turned into mud slinging with the right claiming that they come over here, take our jobs and rape our land etc. I mean if your going to debate the issue use evidence not just rhetoric.

In the UK 40% of the NHS staff are migrants
Immigrants are 70% less likely to take benefits
They contribute 10% to the economy, and take out 9% in benefits

I guess the UK is a totally different case, since in London White Britons comprise less than half of the total population, immigrants are starting to become a majority, not a minority. In that case, I guess the government needs to worry more about controlling immigration and immigrants settling rather than prohibiting it. And we've seen David Cameron attacking pro-multiculturalism policies regarding Muslim communities, followed by the 2011 England riots in which I'm sure many immigrants were involved.

[Vlerchan]

If people want to live in another country, it's their obligation to fit into the mainstream culture.
Why?

It should be up to the individual as to how far they want to integrate into a culture.

What's the point of having cultural enclaves inside cities, Chinatowns and stuff like that?
I agree that this needs to be combated. Just not through forced integration.

Canada is a country that has a good level of co-operation amongst immigrants without forcing integration.

Different cultures living in the same place but without any connection is not multiculturalism, it's segregation and it only leads to discrimination, racism and social problems.
In the past forcing monoculturalism has led to death camps and consequently death.

I realise that you might want to force integration but it is a good point to take note of.

And the worse is, not only immigrants, most of the times, don't contribute to the growth of our economy, but they also parasite our NHS and our social security system.

Our findings are remarkable. Recent immigrants – those who arrived after 1999 – have provided a consistently positive and astonishingly strong contribution to the UK’s fiscal health. Between 2001 and 2011, immigrants from the European Economic Area (EEA – the EU plus three small neighbours) contributed 34 per cent more than they took out, with a net contribution of about £22.1 billion.

At the same time, recent immigrants from non-EEA countries made a net contribution of £2.9 billion, thus paying into the system about 2 per cent more than they took out. Overall, immigration to the UK between 2001 and 2011 therefore provided a positive net contribution of about £25 billion. And don’t forget that this occurred over a period in which the UK had run an overall budget deficit.

In contrast, over the same period, the tax paid by natives amounted to just 89 per cent of the welfare they received. This works out at an overall negative fiscal contribution of £624.1 billion. Our analysis thus suggests that rather than being a drain on the UK’s economy, immigrants arriving since the early 2000s have made substantial net contributions to its public finances. This is a reality that contrasts starkly with the “drain on our economy” view often maintained in public debate.

Our conclusion is further supported by evidence on the degree to which immigrants receive tax credits and benefits compared with natives. Recent immigrants are 45 per cent less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits. These differences are partly explainable by immigrants’ more favourable age-gender composition. But even when compared with natives of the same age, gender and education, recent immigrants are still 21 per cent less likely than natives to receive benefits.

url=http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/11/06/recent-waves-of-immigrants-to-the-uk-have-contributed-far-more-in-taxes-than-they-received-in-benefits

Here we have something called "RSI", which is basically an income the government gives to certain people (gypsies, for instance) who simply don't want to work and live only on that income. They think it's a right they have, but it's not, it's a privilege.
Does this only occur amongst the gypsie community?

Adding to that, different cultures often clash with each other. Every time I hear on the news about one more police raid in Lisbon, there are always some kind of immigrant community involved. They live in miserable neighbourhoods with no conditions, isolated from everyone else, and spent their days either stealing or doing absolutely nothing, feeding from the income our government gives them freely.
Anti-Immigrant rhetoric makes good tabloid headlines.

So, are you in favour of a multicultural society or not?
Yes.

[Stronk Serb]

You have a gypsy problem too? I almost got mugged by one a month ago, and they broke in our vacation home, ransacked it and stole the valuable stuff. Here they live in little cardboard enclaves. When the state gave them free housing, they sold their new homes after the first winter, have literally free healthcare because they don't pay taxes and many of them are criminals. I say we deport the troublesome ones back to where they came from, you can't help them of they don't want your help.

[Harry Smith]

I guess the UK is a totally different case, since in London White Britons comprise less than half of the total population, immigrants are starting to become a majority, not a minority... followed by the 2011 England riots in which I'm sure many immigrants were involved.

So what? I don't care what colour the people are in london, I've got more in common with the diaspora community in london than I have with the type of people that David Cameron hangs around. All DC said was that we need to tackle extreme islam-for a tory he's been very pro multiculturalism. I don't understand your point of view-your about 60 years late-it's not the 1940's anymore. But please keep telling someone who lives in london how bad it must be with all these terrible foreign people hanging around. Please do

Your wrong about the riots, it wasn't immigrants doing it ,it was people with British passports. Just because someone is black doesn't mean there an immigrant.

[Vlerchan]

I almost got mugged by one a month ago, and they broke in our vacation home, ransacked it and stole the valuable stuff[1]. Here they live in little cardboard enclaves[2]. When the state gave them free housing, they sold their new homes after the first winter[3], have literally free healthcare because they don't pay taxes[4] and many of them are criminals[5]. I say we deport the troublesome ones back to where they came from[6], you can't help them of they don't want your help.
[1]: Would you mind telling me how you are so sure it was those evil gypsies on both occasions? Did they leave calling cards or something?

[2]: Is this because they are poor?

[3]: All of them? I'm going to want to see a source for this.

[4]: They don't pay income tax because they don't hold jobs. It's difficult to get a job when your instantly seen as undesirable, I'm drawing this from your continuous use of collective pronouns, because of the family you come from.

[5]: Define: "many". Do you feel that the "many" turn to crime because of the prejudices held against them by non-gypsies, including employers?

[6]: Where do they come from?

[Living For Love]

Why?

It should be up to the individual as to how far they want to integrate into a culture.

Like I said, if they intend to live in another country, they should fit within the society. They shouldn't be outcasts, living isolated from everyone else, in specific places of the city, or not doing anything to support the country that welcomed them. And by this I don't mean stop wearing typical clothes, or eating typical food, or doing religious rituals, that kind of stuff, even though that some practices are just totally incompatible with the modernised western culture. You talked about Canada, but you do realise that not many immigrants who settle there are making an effort to learn either English or French.


I realise that you might want to force integration but it is a good point to take note of.
I guess we've all learned with other people's mistakes, and I'm not supporting death camps or anything, I'm just saying that immigrants must be integrated, otherwise it will only lead to problems. Look at what happened in France, regarding the use of burqa in public spaces.


Does this only occur amongst the gypsie community?
It happens mostly with gypsy people and immigrants from the PALOP. 90% of the gypsy people living here benefit from RSI, and most of the times, they even have other undeclared incomes, so that no taxes are applied to them. Fortunately, the people benefiting from RSI has declined from 500,000 to 350,000, not because those people got richer, but because the government found out they weren't legally deserving that privilege.

You have a gypsy problem too? I almost got mugged by one a month ago, and they broke in our vacation home, ransacked it and stole the valuable stuff. Here they live in little cardboard enclaves. When the state gave them free housing, they sold their new homes after the first winter, have literally free healthcare because they don't pay taxes and many of them are criminals. I say we deport the troublesome ones back to where they came from, you can't help them of they don't want your help.

I don't have anything against gypsies in particular, but the truth here is just like you said: they cause too much trouble. We can't generalise, surely, but we can't deny the facts as well, and the fact is that most of them are involved in illegal activities and avoid paying the taxes they're entitled to.

Your wrong about the riots, it wasn't immigrants doing it ,it was people with British passports. Just because someone is black doesn't mean there an immigrant. I'd appreciate it if we actually debated the facts
I never mentioned black people, and just because they're white, does it mean they're not immigrants?


Comparisons of the data collected on self-defined ethnicity (where ethnicity was
recorded) show that 41 per cent of those brought before the courts identified
themselves as being from the White group, 39 per cent from the Black ethnic group,
12 per cent the Mixed ethnic group, six per cent the Asian ethnic group, and two per
cent the Chinese or Other ethnic group.

[Babiole]

I say yes, as long as we treat each other with respect.

[Vlerchan]

Like I said, if they intend to live in another country, they should fit within the society ... but you do realise that not many immigrants who settle there are making an effort to learn either English or French.
I think we're both on the same page in terms of views. Both of us support multiculturalism, but are against a phenomenon that, for lack of knowing the correct word, I'm going to refer to as ethnic-isolationism.

In Canada it works because the natives are open to the immigrants. In Europe right-wing media scaremongers immigrants (criminals and Marxists!), which fuels animosity amongst the natives, and creates an envoirment where immigrants don't feel welcome and consequently don't push to co-operate.

I'm just saying that immigrants must be integrated, otherwise it will only lead to problems.
Immigrants can co-operate with natives and other immigrants without integrating into the host culture. This is what is meant when I, and others, make reference to 'multiculturalism'.

It happens mostly with gypsy people and immigrants from the PALOP. 90% of the gypsy people living here benefit from RSI, and most of the times, they even have other undeclared incomes, so that no taxes are applied to them.
Evidence please.

Comparisons of the data collected on self-defined ethnicity (where ethnicity was
recorded) show that 41 per cent of those brought before the courts identified
themselves as being from the White group, 39 per cent from the Black ethnic group,
12 per cent the Mixed ethnic group, six per cent the Asian ethnic group, and two per
cent the Chinese or Other ethnic group.
In other words we don't know how many immigrants took part.

[Harry Smith]

Comparisons of the data collected on self-defined ethnicity (where ethnicity was
recorded) show that 41 per cent of those brought before the courts identified
themselves as being from the White group, 39 per cent from the Black ethnic group,
12 per cent the Mixed ethnic group, six per cent the Asian ethnic group, and two per
cent the Chinese or Other ethnic group.

That doesn't mean there immigrants as you claimed, you said you were pretty sure it was lead by immigrants, I live in london, I saw the damage of the riots, I've seen it first hand.
The riots weren't to do with immigrants, but rather long term social problems that have affected urban areas, along with the fact that it was the summer holiday. This is the issue with the debate-your trying to blame immigrants for something they didn't do.

So do you still think that immigrants led the 2011 riots?

[Miserabilia]

Damnit I was writing a super elaborate post here and my laptop randomly went off.
Attempt #2.

Well first you have to think of the definitions of culture; what is culture?
What is part of culture, and more importanlty;
what is a part of your own culture?
Most cultures are in someway connected.

OP, your post was more about immagrancy in general than multiculure.
On the thread title;
Yes.
There's nothing bad about multiculturism itself.

PS sorry for derpy grammer and spelling in this post I'm lazy today

[phuckphace]

In my opinion, I think there must be a good amount of restrictions on immigration and emigration policies. If people want to live in another country, it's their obligation to fit into the mainstream culture. What's the point of having cultural enclaves inside cities, Chinatowns and stuff like that? Different cultures living in the same place but without any connection is not multiculturalism, it's segregation and it only leads to discrimination, racism and social problems. And the worse is, not only immigrants, most of the times, don't contribute to the growth of our economy, but they also parasite our NHS and our social security system. Here we have something called "RSI", which is basically an income the government gives to certain people (gypsies, for instance) who simply don't want to work and live only on that income. They think it's a right they have, but it's not, it's a privilege. Adding to that, different cultures often clash with each other. Every time I hear on the news about one more police raid in Lisbon, there are always some kind of immigrant community involved. They live in miserable neighbourhoods with no conditions, isolated from everyone else, and spent their days either stealing or doing absolutely nothing, feeding from the income our government gives them freely.

woah there dude, watch it with those h8 facts. I'll have you know that opposing immigration makes you objectively worse than Hitler, by exactly 6 million percent. you must atone for your sin by inviting 100 Gypsies to move into your house, or you will be haunted by the ghost of Olaf Palme for the rest of your miserable fascist life.

(on a serious note, your post summed up pretty much everything wrong with multiculturalism, so hats off to you sir.)

Why?

It should be up to the individual as to how far they want to integrate into a culture.

this makes no sense. a culture is by definition a homogenous entity, comprised of a group who are uniformly integrated into it. when a group from one culture immigrates into a country with another culture but does not integrate into it, you end up with two cultures who live in the same place (overlap) but remain distinct from one another, hence the term "multiculturalism." cultures are defined by the sum of their parts, not the other way around as you appear to be suggesting. there is simply no way a given culture can survive or even exist without a very high degree of conformity within itself. thus, individual preference has no place in a discussion about large-scale group behavior (I thought this would be extremely obvious).

In the past forcing monoculturalism has led to death camps and consequently death.

I respect you as one of the more intelligent posters here, but I'm perplexed as to why a lot of progressives, including the more intelligent ones, have such a bad habit of invoking Godwin even in the most mundane contexts almost as if they're unable to help themselves. I know you're smarter than that.

didn't you say in the Communism thread, something along the lines of "past failures don't dictate the feasibility of future attempts?" I think that fits well in this context too.

[Living For Love]

I think we're both on the same page in terms of views. Both of us support multiculturalism, but are against a phenomenon that, for lack of knowing the correct word, I'm going to refer to as ethnic-isolationism.

In Canada it works because the natives are open to the immigrants. In Europe right-wing media scaremongers immigrants (criminals and Marxists!), which fuels animosity amongst the natives, and creates an envoirment where immigrants don't feel welcome and consequently don't push to integrate.

In Canada, most people support ethnic diversity, yes. Either way, most of the people who are against multiculturalism are the inhabitants of Quebec, who think that multiculturalism threatens to reduce them to just another ethnic group.
But there's a reason why right-wind parties are growing all over Europe, and I don't think it's only because of media influence. People have already realised that stuff has been happening lately, and that we need to assert and value our national identities.


Immigrants can co-operate with natives and other immigrants without integrating into the host culture. This is what is meant when I, and others, make reference to 'multiculturalism'.
And how do you think that can be achieved? In an utopic society, possibly, but I doubt that would work practically.


Evidence please.


I obviously couldn't find anything in English, sorry about that:
Excluded from RSI had 'more than 100 thousand euros' in the bank (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pt&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=pt-PT&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsol.sapo.pt%2Finicio%2FPolitica%2FInterior.aspx%3Fcontent_id%3D10 2355&edit-text=&act=url)


The riots weren't to do with immigrants, but rather long term social problems that have affected urban areas, along with the fact that it was the summer holiday.This is the issue with the debate-your trying to blame immigrants for something they didn't do.

So do you still think that immigrants led the 2011 riots?
Call it whatever you like, it's obvious that the immigrant community took advantage of the whole thing to cause chaos and disorder. And it's not the first time that similar things like that happen, when someone gets shot by the police and everyone takes advantage of it, to victimise themselves, to rebel against the society THEY chose to live in.

And yes, I can perfectly blame immigrants for global warming. :D (jk)

[CassnovA]

i think it is fine to migrate as long as you are able to fully adapt to the nations culture. if you cant do that, find a country which suits you better.

[Vlerchan]

this makes no sense. a culture is by definition a homogenous entity, comprised of a group who are uniformly integrated into it.
I envisage a multicultural state as a state in which each cultural group practices its own indigenous traditions in private but in public makes an attempt to integrate where necessary into the host/dominant culture in public, because there is practical incentive to do so. (EDIT: It should be noted that its rarely necessary to actually correct you behaviour in order to allow for fluid interactions: I've spoken in and out of person with individuals of numerous cultures without need to redress my behaviour to facilitate common understanding) I believe that its possible to retain your own cultural identity whilst make allowances for that of others.

I also don't share your view that cultures are necessarily static, it can be demonstrated by looking over history that culture is constantly changing, traditions shift as new viewpoints arise and others fall.

have such a bad habit of invoking Godwin even in the most mundane contexts almost as if they're unable to help themselves.
I wasn't referring to Hitler because Hitler never had any intention of integrating the Jews, etc. into German culture.

I was referring to the buisness between the British and Beors. Though I guess Death Camps are held as a German-thing despite their use by so many other states.

didn't you say in the Communism thread, something along the lines of "past failures don't dictate the feasibility of future attempts?" I think that fits well in this context too.
The OP stated that low social capital is the worst that might come of multiculturalism. I just wanted him to realise what the worst that might come of monoculturalism is.

I don't believe we'll see it happen again, however, in an age of great emphasis on basic human rights.

But there's a reason why right-wind parties are growing all over Europe, and I don't think it's only because of media influence.
The rise of the Far-Right is a result of economic circumstances (and not a rise in nationalism and national-preservation), economic circumstances that the Left should have latched onto long ago.

And how do you think that can be achieved?
Ask Canada.

They seem to be having a fair go at it. Though, it'd be a lie to say that it's perfect there, because it is not.

[Miserabilia]

As for the part of your post (OP) that was actualy about multiculture:

What's the point of having cultural enclaves inside cities, Chinatowns and stuff like that? Different cultures living in the same place but without any connection is not multiculturalism, it's segregation and it only leads to discrimination, racism and social problems.

There's nothing wrong with the preservation and showing off of culture.
You know what actualy does lead to discrimination?
Not being exposed to chinese (and stuff like that) culture, at all.
A chinatown is usualy there for three reasons;
-Chinese people themselves
-Looks nice and people will visit in a tourism kind of way
-Shows us about their culture

It's not like it's their statement of a middle finger, like FU we're not blending in society we do things our own way; they do everything they can to fit in our society, but they have every right to show off their own culture.
It's a very good thing to preserve their culture and language, so that their children will know the chinese culture.

[plebble]

Yes. One culture is boring.

[Living For Love]

The rise of the Far-Right is a result of economic circumstances (and not a rise in nationalism and national-preservation), economic circumstances that the Left should have latched onto long ago.

Possibly, but I'm sure immigration and multiculturalism policies are involved as well.

Nine European Countries Where Extreme Right-Wing Parties Are On The Rise (http://www.businessinsider.com/rise-of-far-right-populist-parties-can-derail-the-eu-2011-6?op=1) Look at the ideologies.


Ask Canada.

They seem to be having a fair go at it. Though, it'd be a lie to say that it's perfect there, because it is not.

America and Canada have always been major immigration destinations, contrary to Europe, whose immigration levels have only started to rise since 1970, after WWII. It's possible that their immigration policies have always been sufficiently adapted to receive immigrants in the best way, which doesn't happen in Europe, and that's why it might not be too accurate to compare these two realities. In Europe, only recently some measures have been taken in order to control immigration. Switzerland has recently modified its anti-immigration policies after the results of a referendum, and I'm pretty sure other countries will follow their example.


There's nothing wrong with the preservation and showing off of culture.
You know what actualy does lead to discrimination?
Not being exposed to chinese (and stuff like that) culture, at all.
A chinatown is usualy there for three reasons;
-Chinese people themselves
-Looks nice and people will visit in a tourism kind of way
-Shows us about their culture

It's not like it's their statement of a middle finger, like FU we're not blending in society we do things our own way; they do everything they can to fit in our society, but they have every right to show off their own culture.
It's a very good thing to preserve their culture and language, so that their children will know the chinese culture.

One thing is preserving their culture, another completely different thing is showing it off. I don't need to live near a Chinese community, for instance, to know a lot about China, so it's not like showing it off will make people more interested or more knowledgeable about it. And I've never met a Chinese person, and I have absolutely nothing against them, I think they are very hard-working people. And it's very unlikely that their culture will be forgotten only because they're mixing with another society. Either way, if it happens, that's their problem; they're the ones who decided to come first.

The issue here is when those people think they're culture is superior, think that they don't need to fit in the host country because they don't want to mix, yet they want to take advantage of what's already here. And I don't like the idea of a city being divided in small neighbourhoods (Chinatowns, Koreatowns, etc...) without any connection between each culture. Multiculturalism implies integration, implies tolerance and respect. If they come to live inside their own bubble far away from everyone else, it's better if they even didn't come in first place, because they don't do anything to reward the country who hosted them.

[Vlerchan]

Look at the ideologies.
I have.

Opposing immigration doesn't make you a nationalist. There's a common perception that immigrants steal jobs, wealth and benefits which hurts individuals materially. In a number of European states the Far-Right are the go-to Euroskeptic party, in France for example the only viable Euroskeptic party is FN, and with the rise of anti-europeanism in the wake of the Euro crisis, etc. their popularity has surged. It's not, or very little of it is, about national preservation.

and that's why it might not be too accurate to compare these two realities.
I recognise that Canada and the US are historically quite different, I was just responding to your scoffing (as I interpreted it) at a multicultural state - not that the US is a good example. I think that things are obviously going to be different in Europe, though its undeniable that the European project is resulting in a more mixed demographic across Europe, and thus our traditional nation-states are crumbling in about us. This, because we'll find its entirely necessary for our Bloc to function, will result in greater culture acceptance, I feel.

Also, if I'm honest I don't want too much extra-European immigration into Europe at the moment: we're at quite a delicate stage of European development at the moment, and I wouldn't want extra-European opinion destabilizing that.

I'm pretty sure other countries will follow their example.
I doubt it. Most European countries legally can't at the moment.

The issue here is when those people think they're culture is superior.
Isn't the same implied in wanting them to integrate into your culture?

Also, not to distract, but I just read your signature, and Wuthering Heights is fantastic. So, yeah.

[Living For Love]

I have.

Opposing immigration doesn't make you a nationalist. There's a common perception that immigrants steal jobs, wealth and benefits, which hurts individuals materially. In a number of European states the Far-Right are the go-to Euroskeptic party, and in countries like France the only viable Euroskeptic party is FN, and with the rise of anti-europeanism in The wake of the Euro crisis, etc., this had also aided their popularity. It's not, or very little of it is, about national preservation.

Alright, then. So, I guess strict immigration and multiculturalism policies would only be a consequence or the rising of Far-Right parties, not a cause. Either way, I want to make clear I don't support anti-European ideologies. The European Union brought a lot of benefits, however, probably due to all those guilty feelings the War caused, some things should have been better thought, such as the Schengen Agreement. Abolishing passports or any other type of border control in-between internal borders, something that has never been done before, it couldn't bring only benefits for people.


I doubt it. Most European countries legally can't at the moment.
That's right, but if we consider the situation European Union is currently going through, you never know what might happen. Cameron has recently shown once again he wants to make a referendum on European Union, and Switzerland practically violated the Schengen Agreement, and even though it doesn't belongs to EU, I haven't seen any sanctions applied by the EU Parliament.


Isn't the same implied in wanting them to integrate into your culture?
No, that's not what I meant. I don't want them to integrate into my culture because I think my culture is superior when compared to theirs. No. They should integrate the host country's culture because that country will treat them like any other citizen, and therefore, they need to respect and assimilate the culture to avoid segregation and other social problems. Now, I don't think they're respecting anyone if they keep living as outlaws who don't pay the taxes they're entitled to, or if they don't have a dignifying job like everyone else, because it's the host country who's financially supporting all that. It's not a matter of thinking "my culture is better than yours, so you better live like us from now on", it's more like "you want to live here, so you'll keep your customs and traditions, but you'll follow our laws and make an effort to fit within our society, no matter what it takes". If there are still incompatible aspects, then I guess it's their problem once again. The cultural shock can be too overwhelming indeed, but like someone said here, if they think they're not going to fit, they better find another place to live.

Also, not to distract, but I just read your signature, and Wuthering Heights is fantastic. So, yeah.
Yes, it is. The plot is just fascinating.

[Blood]

Definitely in favor of it. Multiculturalism adds flavor and variety to a society. I grew up in a very multicultural city and contrary to your beliefs, the different cultures got along fine and I wouldn't say they were segregated at all.

Granted, different cultures will always clash. That's the way it is and that's the way it's always going to be. I don't really see anything wrong with it because different people have different belief systems and it's human nature to stick around people who share the same interests as you.

Also, there's nothing wrong with being proud and showing off your culture- as long as you respect the laws and regulations of the country you're living in.

[Living For Love]

Definitely in favor of it. Multiculturalism adds flavor and variety to a society. I grew up in a very multicultural city and contrary to your beliefs, the different cultures got along fine and I wouldn't say they were segregated at all.

I guess you grew up in New Orleans, right? Like I said before, the American perspective on multiculturalism is totally different from the European one. There's a reason why USA is called "a melting pot", which, by the way, sounds a bit offensive designation in my perspective.

Also, there's nothing wrong with being proud and showing off your culture- as long as you respect the laws and regulations of the country you're living in.
Being proud? Sure, every culture is unique and must be respected. Showing off? No, thanks. If anyone wants to show off their culture, then do it on their origin country. And no; immigrants not always respect laws and regulations of the host country.

[Blood]

I guess you grew up in New Orleans, right? Like I said before, the American perspective on multiculturalism is totally different from the European one. There's a reason why USA is called "a melting pot", which, by the way, sounds a bit offensive designation in my perspective.


Being proud? Sure, every culture is unique and must be respected. Showing off? No, thanks. If anyone wants to show off their culture, then do it on their origin country. And no; immigrants not always respect laws and regulations of the host country.

Why do you think it's offensive? That's essentially what the USA is.

I want to disagree there, but first I'm going to ask what's your definition of a culture "showing off"?

And of course all immigrants don't always respect the laws of the country they've immigrated to. A lot of natives don't respect those laws either though.

[Living For Love]

Why do you think it's offensive? That's essentially what the USA is.

I want to disagree there, but first I'm going to ask what's your definition of a culture "showing off"?

And of course all immigrants don't always respect the laws of the country they've immigrated to. A lot of natives don't respect those laws either though.

It's offensive because it gives the impression all cultures are mixed up chaotically, and that there's not a clear definition of American identity. It doesn't give the impression there's harmony between cultures like you said there were in the city you grew up. I do realise, though, that immigration is something inseparable from the American history and culture.

There are many examples of cultures "showing off". Maybe "showing off" is not the best term to describe it, but anyway, for instance: when you go to a Chinese shop, what are the odds of the owner of the shop speak to you in your native language? Here in Europe, where each country has it's own language, they would talk to you in English, because it's considered an universal language, or even dare to speak Chinese. What if I was a German, or a French, or a Dutch? Is it my obligation to speak in English? No! When people immigrate to another country, their first duty should be learning the language of the country, not only English, the real native language instead. And we all know those parades and street festivals they do during the beginning of a New Chinese Year. And things like serving dog and cat meat at restaurants, and street cock-fighting, things that are just incompatible with the modernised western society. Or, like I said earlier, the case of burqas in France, where there's a law that strictly forbids its use.

[Gamma Male]

And we all know those parades and street festivals they do during the beginning of a New Chinese Year. And things like serving dog and cat meat at restaurants, and street cock-fighting, things that are just incompatible with the modernised western society. Or, like I said earlier, the case of burqas in France, where there's a law that strictly forbids its use.

1 I enjoy chinese new years festivals. I don't see why they're a bad thing.
2 Yes, cockfights should be illegal. But it's not as if there aren't other cases of animal abuse perfectly condoned by western culture. Saying other cultures are all bad because they allow cockfighting is like saying all of Western culture is bad because we allow cosmetic experimentation, or Rodeos, or confinement of dolphins in tiny pools.
3 Why is eating dogs and cats a bad thing? You do realize you sound like a complete hypocrite, right?
4 Outlawing a specific type of Hat is ridiculous. Burqas shouldn't be illegal. That's a stupid law.

[Lovelife090994]

It's offensive because it gives the impression all cultures are mixed up chaotically, and that there's not a clear definition of American identity. It doesn't give the impression there's harmony between cultures like you said there were in the city you grew up. I do realise, though, that immigration is something inseparable from the American history and culture.

There are many examples of cultures "showing off". Maybe "showing off" is not the best term to describe it, but anyway, for instance: when you go to a Chinese shop, what are the odds of the owner of the shop speak to you in your native language? Here in Europe, where each country has it's own language, they would talk to you in English, because it's considered an universal language, or even dare to speak Chinese. What if I was a German, or a French, or a Dutch? Is it my obligation to speak in English? No! When people immigrate to another country, their first duty should be learning the language of the country, not only English, the real native language instead. And we all know those parades and street festivals they do during the beginning of a New Chinese Year. And things like serving dog and cat meat at restaurants, and street cock-fighting, things that are just incompatible with the modernised western society. Or, like I said earlier, the case of burqas in France, where there's a law that strictly forbids its use.

That's the beauty of America. We welcome all cultures and allow all to live as they want.

[Living For Love]

1 I enjoy chinese new years festivals. I don't see why they're a bad thing.
2 Yes, cockfights should be illegal. But it's not as if there aren't other cases of animal abuse perfectly condoned by western culture. Saying other cultures are all bad because they allow cockfighting is like saying all of Western culture is bad because we allow cosmetic experimentation, or Rodeos, or confinement of dolphins in tiny pools.
3 Why is eating dogs and cats a bad thing? You do realize you sound like a complete hypocrite, right?
4 Outlawing a specific type of Hat is ridiculous. Burqas shouldn't be illegal. That's a stupid law.

I'm not saying cockfights or eating dog and cat meat are bad things, they are just practices that don't fit within the mainstream culture. About burqas, the law says that it's forbidden to hide your face in public spaces, so the immigrants must obey that law. Period. It doesn't matter if it's ridiculous or not. And calling me a hypocrite is just the perfect argument, isn't it? I pity you and your ignorance.

[Capto]

About burqas, the law says that it's forbidden to hide your face in public spaces, so the immigrants must obey that law. Period. It doesn't matter if it's ridiculous or not.

Well, French secularism is a pain in the ass anyways.

[Living For Love]

Well, French secularism is a pain in the ass anyways.

Yes, I have to agree with that...

[Blood]

It's offensive because it gives the impression all cultures are mixed up chaotically, and that there's not a clear definition of American identity. It doesn't give the impression there's harmony between cultures like you said there were in the city you grew up. I do realise, though, that immigration is something inseparable from the American history and culture.

melt·ing pot

1. container for melting and mixing: a container in which substances, especially metals, are placed to be liquefied and mixed together.

2. society composed of many different cultures: a place where people of different ethnic groups are brought together and can assimilate, especially a country that takes immigrants from many different ethnic backgrounds.

3. process that creates something new: a situation or process in which distinct elements can be brought together to produce something new.

I wouldn't say it gives a chaotic impression at all.

There are many examples of cultures "showing off". Maybe "showing off" is not the best term to describe it, but anyway, for instance: when you go to a Chinese shop, what are the odds of the owner of the shop speak to you in your native language? Here in Europe, where each country has it's own language, they would talk to you in English, because it's considered an universal language, or even dare to speak Chinese. What if I was a German, or a French, or a Dutch? Is it my obligation to speak in English? No! When people immigrate to another country, their first duty should be learning the language of the country, not only English, the real native language instead. And we all know those parades and street festivals they do during the beginning of a New Chinese Year. And things like serving dog and cat meat at restaurants, and street cock-fighting, things that are just incompatible with the modernised western society. Or, like I said earlier, the case of burqas in France, where there's a law that strictly forbids its use.

1. Learning a language is optional. No one should feel obligated to do it. There's no law stating that if you move some where you have to learn the common language for that area.

2. How on earth are street parades and festivals incompatible with modernized western society? These are harmless cultural traditions. I honestly don't see anything wrong with eating cat and dog meat. Yeah, people keep them as pets, but people also keep cows, goats, and sheep as pets and we eat them. I can agree with cock-fighting being bad though.

I'm not saying cockfights or eating dog and cat meat are bad things, they are just practices that don't fit within the mainstream culture. About burqas, the law says that it's forbidden to hide your face in public spaces, so the immigrants must obey that law. Period. It doesn't matter if it's ridiculous or not. And calling me a hypocrite is just the perfect argument, isn't it? I pity you and your ignorance.

So you basically want people who are different to conform to western society's definition of mainstream? Who says these people have to fit into the "mainstream culture"? Pressuring people to conform into what's mainstream is absolutely ridiculous.

Cultural differences is what makes the United States of America a lovely, unique place to live.


That's the beauty of America. We welcome all cultures and allow all to live as they want.

I couldn't agree more.

[Lovelife090994]

melt·ing pot

1. container for melting and mixing: a container in which substances, especially metals, are placed to be liquefied and mixed together.

2. society composed of many different cultures: a place where people of different ethnic groups are brought together and can assimilate, especially a country that takes immigrants from many different ethnic backgrounds.

3. process that creates something new: a situation or process in which distinct elements can be brought together to produce something new.

I wouldn't say it gives a chaotic impression at all.



1. Learning a language is optional. No one should feel obligated to do it. There's no law stating that if you move some where you have to learn the common language for that area.

2. How on earth are street parades and festivals incompatible with modernized western society? These are harmless cultural traditions. I honestly don't see anything wrong with eating cat and dog meat. Yeah, people keep them as pets, but people also keep cows, goats, and sheep as pets and we eat them. I can agree with cock-fighting being bad though.



So you basically want people who are different to conform to western society's definition of mainstream? Who says these people have to fit into the "mainstream culture"? Pressuring people to conform into what's mainstream is absolutely ridiculous.

Cultural differences is what makes the United States of America a lovely, unique place to live.



I couldn't agree more.

Isn't wanting someone to abandon their culture for yours considered assimilation, and blasphemy in some cases? Also, isn't that what many Europeans wanted the Native Americans to do? To me just because you are in America doesn't mean you must learn English. Nigeria has the language English as official, and America has no official language. Even America won't make someone bend since there is no way to be an American in some "right" way. (When I say "right" I didn't mean the polical meaning.)

[Fiction]

I enjoy learning about different cultures and meeting people from other cultures BUT I do not enjoy feeling like the minority in my country of origin.

I think immigration is causing the UK huge problems right now and it has to stop, otherwise the NHS and many other public services will collapse. There needs to be rules in place meaning that immigrants cannot access public services such as the NHS and definitely not receive benefits until they have paid taxes for a certain amount of time. Until this happens the country will get further and further into debt, and in the end Britain's public services will just not be viable anymore.

[Blood]

Isn't wanting someone to abandon their culture for yours considered assimilation, and blasphemy in some cases? Also, isn't that what many Europeans wanted the Native Americans to do? To me just because you are in America doesn't mean you must learn English. Nigeria has the language English as official, and America has no official language. Even America won't make someone bend since there is no way to be an American in some "right" way. (When I say "right" I didn't mean the polical meaning.)

No, because assimilation isn't about abandoning your culture. It's about optional adjustment. Learning to become part of the big picture without losing your own identity.

Also, assimilation isn't forced here, so that clears that up.

[Lovelife090994]

No, because assimilation isn't about abandoning your culture. It's about optional adjustment. Learning to become part of the big picture without losing your own identity.

Also, assimilation isn't forced here, so that clears that up.

Is there a word for forcing someone to abandon their culture?

[Miserabilia]

One thing is preserving their culture, another completely different thing is showing it off. I don't need to live near a Chinese community, for instance, to know a lot about China, so it's not like showing it off will make people more interested or more knowledgeable about it. And I've never met a Chinese person, and I have absolutely nothing against them, I think they are very hard-working people. And it's very unlikely that their culture will be forgotten only because they're mixing with another society. Either way, if it happens, that's their problem; they're the ones who decided to come first.

The issue here is when those people think they're culture is superior, think that they don't need to fit in the host country because they don't want to mix, yet they want to take advantage of what's already here. And I don't like the idea of a city being divided in small neighbourhoods (Chinatowns, Koreatowns, etc...) without any connection between each culture. Multiculturalism implies integration, implies tolerance and respect. If they come to live inside their own bubble far away from everyone else, it's better if they even didn't come in first place, because they don't do anything to reward the country who hosted them.


One thing is preserving their culture, another completely different thing is showing it off. I don't need to live near a Chinese community, for instance, to know a lot about China, so it's not like showing it off will make people more interested or more knowledgeable about it. And I've never met a Chinese person, and I have absolutely nothing against them, I think they are very hard-working people. And it's very unlikely that their culture will be forgotten only because they're mixing with another society. Either way, if it happens, that's their problem; they're the ones who decided to come first.

It's strange that you feel about it that way, because it sounds like you just want them to be there but not notice it; I don't see the problem even if they built a whole chinese super district that can be seen from every part of town, as long as it doesn't actualy do anything to you.
And obviously their culture won't be forgotten, but the parents that weren't born in the new country probably want their children to have some chinese culture with them too,
and on top of that, I think it's only reasonable for them to have some part of their culture here.
Asian culture is pretty distant from our culture, so they morally can't just step out of it completely; it's like religious people needing religious buildings in new places, which is why new churches are often built in new colonized areas.

The issue here is when those people think they're culture is superior, think that they don't need to fit in the host country because they don't want to mix, yet they want to take advantage of what's already here. And I don't like the idea of a city being divided in small neighbourhoods (Chinatowns, Koreatowns, etc...) without any connection between each culture. Multiculturalism implies integration, implies tolerance and respect. If they come to live inside their own bubble far away from everyone else, it's better if they even didn't come in first place, because they don't do anything to reward the country who hosted them.

Now it sounds like you're assuming (Not sure if you are, correct me if I'm wrong :lol:)
that all chinese people live work and stay in "chinatown".
Which is silly.

Chinese people have their own homes and jobs and they do blend in society, and they don't think their culture is superior (Perhaps some of them do, but you definetly can't generalize it).

I think that what's really tolerant, is if we allow them a small part of the city to be in a chinese style.

[Living For Love]

1. Learning a language is optional. No one should feel obligated to do it. There's no law stating that if you move some where you have to learn the common language for that area.

It's a matter of respect and common sense. If you're going to immigrate, at least make an effort to learn the native language of that place. When I went to Italy, I actually got a bit surprised on how some people kinda like refused to talk to you if you talked to them in English. They're just so proud of their language, of their cultural background. And they definitely have reasons for it. It's that sense of nationalism and asserting our national identity that is lacking on the rest of the other European countries.


So you basically want people who are different to conform to western society's definition of mainstream? Who says these people have to fit into the "mainstream culture"? Pressuring people to conform into what's mainstream is absolutely ridiculous.
Not to the western society's definition of mainstream, but to the cultural definition of the countries those people are immigrating to. And yes, if people want to be accepted, they need to respect and conform to that mainstream culture.


Cultural differences is what makes the United States of America a lovely, unique place to live.
Absolutely. But that's something that would be totally inconceivable in Europe.

It's strange that you feel about it that way, because it sounds like you just want them to be there but not notice it; I don't see the problem even if they built a whole chinese super district that can be seen from every part of town, as long as it doesn't actualy do anything to you.

No, no, no, no and no. I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you. First of all, I don't even want them here in first place, so your assumption is not 100% correct. Now, build "a Chinese super district", inside another city which has nothing to do with their culture!? Does that even make any sense? But you know what, why are we even talking only about Chinese? It's just that there aren't cultures better than others. All cultures are on the same level. All share the same rights in their countries of origin. So that means, if you don't see any problem building a Chinese-only small city inside another, then you would have no problem in building an African-only, or an Arabic-only, or a Gypsy-only, or a Latino-only, or a Japanese-only. And then, we would only have cities divided into neighbourhoods or something, without any connection between themselves, like ghettos or something.

Now it sounds like you're assuming (Not sure if you are, correct me if I'm wrong :lol:)
that all chinese people live work and stay in "chinatown".
Which is silly.
It is silly, but I didn't said that. You can't deny the majority of Chinese people live in those enclaves, though.

[Capto]

It is silly, but I didn't said that. You can't deny the majority of Chinese people live in those enclaves, though.

The problem is, that indeed is false.

[Living For Love]

The problem is, that indeed is false.

You think most Chinese people who immigrate to big cities don't live in Chinatowns?

[Forsakenbymyself]

In my opinion, I think there must be a good amount of restrictions on immigration and emigration policies. If people want to live in another country, it's their obligation to fit into the mainstream culture. What's the point of having cultural enclaves inside cities, Chinatowns and stuff like that? Different cultures living in the same place but without any connection is not multiculturalism, it's segregation and it only leads to discrimination, racism and social problems. And the worse is, not only immigrants, most of the times, don't contribute to the growth of our economy, but they also parasite our NHS and our social security system. Here we have something called "RSI", which is basically an income the government gives to certain people (gypsies, for instance) who simply don't want to work and live only on that income. They think it's a right they have, but it's not, it's a privilege. Adding to that, different cultures often clash with each other. Every time I hear on the news about one more police raid in Lisbon, there are always some kind of immigrant community involved. They live in miserable neighbourhoods with no conditions, isolated from everyone else, and spent their days either stealing or doing absolutely nothing, feeding from the income our government gives them freely.

So, are you in favour of a multicultural society or not?


I completely agree with you, OP.

[Harry Smith]

I enjoy learning about different cultures and meeting people from other cultures BUT I do not enjoy feeling like the minority in my country of origin.

I think immigration is causing the UK huge problems right now and it has to stop, otherwise the NHS and many other public services will collapse. There needs to be rules in place meaning that immigrants cannot access public services such as the NHS and definitely not receive benefits until they have paid taxes for a certain amount of time. Until this happens the country will get further and further into debt, and in the end Britain's public services will just not be viable anymore.

Eh not really, immigrants/migrant labour staff over 40% of the NHS so we need them to come over here and work in the NHS otherwise we won't have one, I mean yeah sure great lets have this policy to defend our NHS but it's simply not going to work. The NHS needs migrants, we have a 3 month waiting period for benefits in the UK-Immigrants are 70% less likely to take out benefits, and they contribute far more than they than out

You think most Chinese people who immigrate to big cities don't live in Chinatowns?

No, at least not here. The Chinatown here is about 3 streets, the majority go to school with me, go to university with my sister, and contribute to British society.



it's obvious that the immigrant community took advantage of the whole thing to cause chaos and disorder.

No,No,No.It's not obvious. In order for you to be right it would have to be exclusive to a diaspora community in England e.g polish workers but it simply wasn't .It's the British community. The people had British passports, they went to British schools. I know you want to blame the 2011 riots on immigrants but you can't, can you please withdraw the claim that it was by the immigrant community in london. Because it's simply false-as I said before I live in london, I know about the riots-all you've got is some right wing perception that is was some-sort of immigrant uprising which is simply false

[Miserabilia]

No, no, no, no and no. I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you. First of all, I don't even want them here in first place, so your assumption is not 100% correct. Now, build "a Chinese super district", inside another city which has nothing to do with their culture!?[1] Does that even make any sense? But you know what, why are we even talking only about Chinese?[2] It's just that there aren't cultures better than others. All cultures are on the same level. [3] All share the same rights in their countries of origin. So that means, if you don't see any problem building a Chinese-only small city inside another, then you would have no problem in building an African-only, or an Arabic-only, or a Gypsy-only, or a Latino-only, or a Japanese-only.[4] And then, we would only have cities divided into neighbourhoods or something, without any connection between themselves, like ghettos or something.[5]


It is silly, but I didn't said that. You can't deny the majority of Chinese people live in those enclaves, though.

[1]: Nothing to do with their culture? I was just refering to a big giant chinatown, which has alot to do with culture.

[2]: As example

[3]: I aggree 100%.

[4]: Yes, I wouldn't have any problem with that; but the problem is that you are making it sound like these are compltely closed off districts where these people come together, but it's rather a showing of culture.
They are not having a seperate rule systeme and closed off borders from the rest of the city.
Unlike clichés, chinatown is not a complpletely different world. You'll find that you can get around fine with speaking english for example, which is because it's not a part of china; it's chinese people showing culture, which is absolutely fine.
As a matter of fact, I can't think of a single negative side to it.

[5]: Again, they are not closed off. And not every country or culture does this, and furthermore it requires a lot of people of that origin in the city for them to even start a minor cultural district.

[Capto]

You think most Chinese people who immigrate to big cities don't live in Chinatowns?

From personal experience in several big cities, indeed that is not the case.

[Living For Love]

No,No,No.It's not obvious. In order for you to be right it would have to be exclusive to a diaspora community in England e.g polish workers but it simply wasn't .It's the British community. The people had British passports, they went to British schools. I know you want to blame the 2011 riots on immigrants but you can't, can you please withdraw the claim that it was by the immigrant community in london. Because it's simply false-as I said before I live in london, I know about the riots-all you've got is some right wing perception that is was some-sort of immigrant uprising which is simply false

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, then. That's not even the major point in here, so...

Nothing to do with their culture? I was just refering to a big giant chinatown, which has alot to do with culture.
No, sorry if I didn't express myself in the best way. I meant having a big giant Chinatown inside another city of another country, for instance Stockholm, in Sweden, which is a country that is not China, that is totally different from China, and, therefore, doesn't have pretty much nothing in common with Chinese culture (which is so rich, diverse and full of traditions).

Yes, I wouldn't have any problem with that; but the problem is that you are making it sound like these are compltely closed off districts where these people come together, but it's rather a showing of culture.
They are not having a seperate rule systeme and closed off borders from the rest of the city.
Unlike clichés, chinatown is not a complpletely different world. You'll find that you can get around fine with speaking english for example, which is because it's not a part of china; it's chinese people showing culture, which is absolutely fine.
As a matter of fact, I can't think of a single negative side to it.
I know it's not something totally closeted off, but as you know, a Chinatown is basically characterised by having many Chinese inhabitants, and a different architecture, different types of restaurants, shops, services, which might not fit into the society of the host country. Take, for instance, the example of having a Chinatown in Stockholm. And it's because the people who live there don't socialise and integrate themselves so easily and as much compared if they lived mixed with the other population, without having a "specially designated place" for themselves.

[Vlerchan]

I skimmed through a lot of the points made in this thread from page 2 onwards because I just don't have the time to rad everything. I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone.

So, I guess strict immigration and multiculturalism policies would only be a consequence or the rising of Far-Right parties, not a cause.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. My opinion stated more coherently is:

It is overly liberal immigration policies and a rise in anti-EU sentiment that has given rise to the Far-Right in Europe. It's on the basis of the material conditions faced by native members of the working class that has seen them receive a surge in both relevance and popularity and not a rise in nationalism.

I want to make clear I don't support anti-European ideologies.
I tend towards them.

The EU in its current form is a mess: an anti-democratic, feel-good cover for neo-liberalism that doesn't even attempt to keep up the pretences that it is a motor for progressivism anymore. It needs to be reformed and hopefully the rise of hard-euroskepticism will give it the motivation to do just that.

... such as the Schengen Agreement.
I disagree with a lot of things that the EU has done in the last twenty years but this is not one of them.

The free movement of labour being is entirely necessary if one wished for the free movement of capital. Your inviting disaster without it.

That's right, but if we consider the situation European Union is currently going through, you never know what might happen.
I'm very doubtful we'll see any nation leave the EU, Britain included.

Cameron has recently shown once again he wants to make a referendum on European Union.
Cameron is only going to call a referendum in 2016 if his party is re-elected into government. This is quite unlikely. Regardless it's not a referendum about leaving the EU but is rather about "renegotiating Britain's position in regards to the EU" - or something to that effect - which means there'll be no legal requirement to leave if the referendum passes. What we'll see is the EU giving some minor concessions, Cameron will declare Britain satisfied, and we'll move on past Britain's blatant power play.

Which is unfortunate since I hold that a Britain outside the EU would be better for everyone. Except Britain and the US, who I don't really care about if I'm honest.

Switzerland practically violated the Schengen Agreement, and even though it doesn't belongs to EU, I haven't seen any sanctions applied by the EU Parliament.
Starting an economic war with your trading partners is generally inadvisable.

They should integrate the host country's culture because that country will treat them like any other citizen, and therefore, they need to respect and assimilate the culture to avoid segregation and other social problems
You can still hold your own cultural identity and not face segregation, etc.

What you are talking about comes as a result of ethno-isolationism.

"you want to live here, so you'll keep your customs and traditions, but you'll follow our laws and make an effort to fit within our society, no matter what it takes".
How do you set about ensuring everyone one "fits in"? if I might ask.

It's offensive because it gives the impression all cultures are mixed up chaotically, and that there's not a clear definition of American identity.
America's cultural identity is the contents of the melting pot at any given moment.

Though I find your aversion to the melting pot effect to be quite amusing seeing that you are participating in it right now through opening yourself up to ideas held in different cultures. Your mind expands as a consequence of your exposure to influences alien of those inherent to your own culture, such as in Wuthering Heights or reading through some of the threads as posted on this subforum. This is where the idea of mass culture comes from: modern cultures as a result of their exposure with others: through the media, over the internet, etc. are beginning to converge at a singe point. It's been ongoing since the popularisation of cinema and radio in the 1920s. To sum: we are all in the melting pot.

Here in Europe, where each country has it's own language, they would talk to you in English, because it's considered an universal language, or even dare to speak Chinese.
Nobody is forcing you into their shop.

And he wouldn't be speaking English if it was bad for business, or not speaking your native language if it was better for business. Maybe you need to accept that the world is changing: national languages are becoming redundant.

they are just practices that don't fit within the mainstream culture.
Do you also oppose subcultures: goth, emo, that sort of thing?

What about non-mainstream music styles, acts, etc?: I personally like a Canadian band called "Godspeed You! Black Emperor" and I'm at odds with mainstream society on this. Should they be not allowed play a gig in Ireland as a result.

I think immigration is causing the UK huge problems right now and it has to stop, otherwise the NHS and many other public services will collapse.
This is fiction.

Our findings are remarkable. Recent immigrants – those who arrived after 1999 – have provided a consistently positive and astonishingly strong contribution to the UK’s fiscal health. Between 2001 and 2011, immigrants from the European Economic Area (EEA – the EU plus three small neighbours) contributed 34 per cent more than they took out, with a net contribution of about £22.1 billion.

At the same time, recent immigrants from non-EEA countries made a net contribution of £2.9 billion, thus paying into the system about 2 per cent more than they took out. Overall, immigration to the UK between 2001 and 2011 therefore provided a positive net contribution of about £25 billion. And don’t forget that this occurred over a period in which the UK had run an overall budget deficit.

In contrast, over the same period, the tax paid by natives amounted to just 89 per cent of the welfare they received. This works out at an overall negative fiscal contribution of £624.1 billion. Our analysis thus suggests that rather than being a drain on the UK’s economy, immigrants arriving since the early 2000s have made substantial net contributions to its public finances. This is a reality that contrasts starkly with the “drain on our economy” view often maintained in public debate.

Our conclusion is further supported by evidence on the degree to which immigrants receive tax credits and benefits compared with natives. Recent immigrants are 45 per cent less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits. These differences are partly explainable by immigrants’ more favourable age-gender composition. But even when compared with natives of the same age, gender and education, recent immigrants are still 21 per cent less likely than natives to receive benefits.

url=http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/11/06/recent-waves-of-immigrants-to-the-uk-have-contributed-far-more-in-taxes-than-they-received-in-benefits

[Living For Love]

The free movement of labour being is entirely necessary if one wished for the free movement of capital. Your inviting disaster without it.
Possibly, yes, but like I said in first place, there has to be some kind of regulations as far as free movement of people is concerned.


I'm very doubtful we'll see any nation leave the EU, Britain included.
I wouldn't be so sure of that.


Which is unfortunate since I hold that a Britain outside the EU would be better for everyone.
Since you don't really support EU, it's a legit opinion. But once UK is out, it will be only a matter of time till the whole EU crumbles.


Starting an economic war with your trading partners is generally inadvisable.
So, it's just like that, leave them doing what they want? It's not that I don't agree with their new policy, it's just that they signed and agreement, which was then broken.


How do you set about ensuring everyone one "fits in"? if I might ask.
Stopping living isolated, contributing to the economy like any other citizen, and respect the laws of the host society. Those are the main factors. Is that so difficult?


opening yourself up to ideas held in different cultures.
I don't remember saying that.


Maybe you need to accept that the world is changing: national languages are becoming redundant.
So, basically, in some decades, we will be all speaking English? No more languages? Hopefully, God will have mercy on us and mix all the languages again. :D


Do you also oppose subcultures: goth, emo, that sort of thing?
Those are not cultures, those are ways of living that exist everywhere. And no, I don't oppose to them.

[Vlerchan]

Possibly, yes, but like I said in first place, there has to be some kind of regulations as far as free movement of people is concerned.
I see no reason as to why there should be barriers on an intra-European level, in cases where free trade exists.

Since you don't really support EU, it's a legit opinion.
I do support the idea behind the EU. I just don't support the EU in its current form. I'm a EuroFederalist, it is just:

I'm not prepared to support Federalisation until there is monetary and fiscal unity, and our economies are well integrated.
I'm not prepared to support monetary or fiscal unity until our economies are well integrated.
It's not possible to integrate our economies (well) unless there's a similar level of economic development, from Germany to Estonia, Ireland to Portugal

And all of this needs to be done according to socialist lines, because if that doesn't happen then it has all been a waste of time.

So, it's just like that, leave them doing what they want?
Yes.

Stopping living isolated, contributing to the economy like any other citizen, and respect the laws of the host society. Those are the main factors. Is that so difficult?
I didn't ask what you wanted. I asked how you meant to ensure it happened.

Also, the above is entirely compatible with multiculturalism.

I don't remember saying that.
In participating on an international forum you have done such, and thus have entered the melting pot.

Those are not cultures[1], those are ways of living[2] that exist everywhere[3].

[1]: Yes, they are.

[2]: That's what a culture is.

[3]: I'd say it's about as widespread as the Chinese culture.

[Living For Love]

Yes.
And why do you think so?


I didn't ask what you wanted. I asked how you meant to ensure it happened.

Also, the above is entirely compatible with multiculturalism.
If people had at least some common sense, it wouldn't be difficult to make sure everyone fit in. As that doesn't happen, government has to intervene, through law enforcement. Just like the case with the burqa in France, if people don't respect the law, they are bribed/arrested/jailed.


In participating on an international forum you have done such, and thus have entered the melting pot.
A "virtual melting pot", then. I guess your conception of "melting pot" is totally different than mine. You do realise there has to be actual contact between cultures to be considered a melting pot, right? How can that happen virtually? Don't confuse multiculturalism with globalisation, those are two distinct phenomena.

[Vlerchan]

And why do you think so?
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/switzerland/

If people had at least some common sense, it wouldn't be difficult to make sure everyone fit in.
You'll find that common sense tends to (edit: differ) by culture a lot.

Though, it's entirely possible to hold on to your culture and traditions and engage in society.

As that doesn't happen, government has to intervene, through law enforcement.
So, you believe that we should violentally-suppress cultural non-conformists. Okay.

To what extent: a fine? jail time? forty lashes?

You do realise there has to be actual contact between cultures to be considered a melting pot, right?
I've no idea how you can feel that this is not possible over the internet. If I start using colloquial Hiberno-English phrases like: "It's pissin' rain out, innit?" would you be more inclined to believe me? Because I can start doing that.

Don't confuse multiculturalism with globalisation, those are two distinct phenomena.
I know.

Globalisation is actually the antithesis of Multiculturalism in that it results of the merging of cultures, and so disappearance of cultures or cultural traditions. It is Monocultural, and that is why American anti-multiculturalists tend to support it.

[Living For Love]

So, you believe that we should violentally-suppress cultural non-conformists. Okay.

To what extent: a fine? jail time? forty lashes?

There's an easier way (http://www.ukimmigrationbarristers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Deportation.jpg) to do it.


I've no idea how you can feel that this is not possible over the internet. If I start using colloquial Hiberno-English phrases like: "It's pissin' rain out, innit?" would you be more inclined to believe me? Because I can start doing that.
How can the fact that you'll start speaking to me in a different language be considered a sign of the "melting pot"?

[Vlerchan]

There's an easier way to do it.
Deportation?

How can the fact that you'll start speaking to me in a different language be considered a sign of the "melting pot"?
It is you being opened up to the influence of another culture. I guess referring to foreign music or foreign literature might be a better example, but that was the first to come to my head (aside: 'come to my head' is another Hiberno-English phrase): the point is that by engaging on an international forum it opens you up to foreign ideas, and thus the 'melting pot effect occurs'.

[Living For Love]

Deportation?
Yes.


It is you being opened up to the influence of another culture. I guess referring to foreign music or foreign literature might be a better example, but that was the first to come to my head (aside: 'come to my head' is another Hiberno-English phrase): the point is that by engaging on an international forum it opens you up to foreign ideas, and thus the 'melting pot effect occurs'.
I'm not opened up as I would be in "real life", obviously. I'm here, on this forum, and you can start talking to me about your language, about Hiberno-English, about foreign literature and music, but it's not like that would affect my quotidian at all. And I can simply end taking part of the "melting pot effect" by clicking on the power button of my computer. It's not that simple and that easy on real life, though.

And this topic was brought up after I said I found the term "melting pot" a bit offensive. Well, I'm not American, but as multiculturalism worked out so well in the USA, I guess we could call it, instead of a "melting pot", a "cultural orchestra", because unlike a pot where everything is mixed, in an orchestra, each culture plays it role, and the music (society in its whole) wouldn't be the same if one of the cultures stopped "playing", stopped taking part in the society.
But this are just simple terms to describe something so vast and complex such as multiculturalism, that's why those kind of labels don't work sometimes.

[Vlerchan]

Yes.
I presume that deportation would be used in response to breaches of the law? It seems rather ridiculous to use it as a means of thought-control.

I also presume that only non-citizens will be deported for non-conformity issues.

... but it's not like that would affect my quotidian at all.
Oh, but it does.

Your mind expands on exposure to foreign ideas at the most minimum. Though I'm willing to bet that you've some amount of foreign ideas blended in with traditional Portuguese ones. It would be impossible not to in an age of such rapid globalization.

And I can simply end taking part of the "melting pot effect" by clicking on the power button of my computer.
That's beyond the point.

Through your continued use of the internet you are exposing yourself to foreign ideas, some that you may adopt, and exposing others to traditional Portuguese ideas, some that others may adopt, and thus are currently partaking in the 'melting pot effect'. I never claimed that it was impossible to stop partaking, just that you were currently partaking an your aversion to such was amusing.

But this are just simple terms to describe something so vast and complex such as multiculturalism, that's why those kind of labels don't work sometimes.
The 'melting pot effect' involves taking many (multi) cultures and blending them into one single dominant culture (mono). It's entirely opposed to the 'cultural orchestra' on the basis of the criticisms of multiculturalism that you outlined in your OP. The US has bastions of both multiculturalism and monoculturalism (the 'melting pot effect') within its borders.

[Living For Love]

I presume that deportation would be used in response to breaches of the law? Yup, that's what I meant.

It seems rather ridiculous to use it as a means of thought-control.Of course. Deportation is not meant to be used as thought-control, but instead as a last resource. That's why there has to be regulations as far as immigration is concerned, to avoid getting to the point of deportation.

I also presume that only non-citizens will be deported for non-conformity issues.
Yes.


Oh, but it does.

Your mind expands on exposure to foreign ideas at the most minimum. Though I'm willing to bet that you've some amount of foreign ideas blended in with traditional Portuguese ones. It would be impossible not to in an age of such rapid globalization.
Once again, you're mixing up things. You said: The 'melting pot effect' involves taking many (multi) cultures and blending them into one single dominant culture (mono).
The thing is, nothing I hear here on the forums, or nothing you can tell me about different culture, languages, music or traditions will contribute to make my culture less unique, because those things don't make it blend into one single culture. It's true, though, that globalisation is clearly influencing not only Portuguese culture but pretty much every European culture, but that happens in "real life", not virtually through a forum so rarely used by Portuguese people like this one. And even if I was affected in my quotidian by this, I'm just one person, I can't do nothing to change the culture of my country. And whatever I see or read here regarding different cultures, it will only make me have more knowledge, it won't change my cultural background.


The 'melting pot effect' involves taking many (multi) cultures and blending them into one single dominant culture (mono). It's entirely opposed to the 'cultural orchestra' on the basis of the criticisms of multiculturalism that you outlined in your OP. The US has bastions of both multiculturalism and monoculturalism (the 'melting pot effect') within its borders.
What I said in my OP refers to an European perspective. The melting pot effect occurred in the USA, and consequently the cultural identity of the United States derives from a mixing of previous cultures, brought by immigrants, since the XVIIIth century. The thing is, I don't want the "melting pot effect" neither the "cultural orchestra effect" to occur in Europe, because both would mean the loss of the true European cultural identities, the ones that were spread all around the word in the second half of the last millennium.

[Capto]

Germany is a melting pot. Italy is a melting pot. Both cobbled into a relatively uniform culture from various lumps of other cultures.

[Vlerchan]

That's why there has to be regulations as far as immigration is concerned, to avoid getting to the point of deportation.
How do you propose to ensure against anti-conformity?

Though, most traditions are within the general law-of-the-land in most countries, so.

It's true, though, that globalisation is clearly influencing not only Portuguese culture but pretty much every European culture, but that happens in "real life", not virtually through a forum so rarely used by Portuguese people like this one.
What?

The internet is probably the largest tool for globalisation.

And even if I was affected in my quotidian by this, I'm just one person, I can't do nothing to change the culture of my country.
I never said that the 'melting pot effect' rested on you.

You're just partaking in it. For it to have a noticeable effect on a culture there needs to be more participants.

And whatever I see or read here regarding different cultures, it will only make me have more knowledge, it won't change my cultural background.
So, you have never encountered anything on the internet that has made you think or act outside of cultural norms?

The thing is, I don't want the "melting pot effect" neither the "cultural orchestra effect" to occur in Europe, because both would mean the loss of the true European cultural identities, the ones that were spread all around the word in the second half of the last millennium.
You're going to have to pick one or the other ('cultural orchestra' or 'melting pot effect') if you are serious about supporting European integration.

It's inevitable.

[Babiole]

People are going to immigrate to other countries whether we like it or not. The opposite of multiculturalism would be allowing minorities to live in ghettos. France is pretty integrated compared to the UK and Scandinavia.

I do not mind living near people of non-European background. Some of them are nicer and more tolerant than many of the native white French that I know.

[Harry Smith]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, then. That's not even the major point in here, so...

It is the main point here, it shows how you simply have no idea what your talking about-you've tried to blame the immigrant community in Britain for the 2011 riots which is simply not true. It just shows how the immigration debate has become skewered by myths, that you've also been peddling like how they steal our jobs etc when it's simply not true.

You can't blame immigrants for everything

[Living For Love]

How do you propose to ensure against anti-conformity?
They're the ones who have to make that effort, nobody called them.


Though, most traditions are within the general law-of-the-land in most countries, so.
Not only the traditions matter, but also the way of living. I'm going to give you a quick example. Some days ago I was going home in my mum's car and we passed by the hospital and she noticed some gypsy caravans parked next to the entrance. She said: "There must be some gypsy person sick in the hospital. When that happens, all the community comes here and decide to settle near the hospital's entrance." And that was something I didn't know. And there were like 5 or 6 caravans parked in a public garden and maybe 20 people there just lunching and polluting the garden like it belonged to them or something. And they were partially blocking the entrance to the parking lot and to the area where the ambulances are. You see, this kind of things just annoys the s*** out of me. And, obviously, the police can't do nothing because they have the so called "social privileges". Ugh, just remembering all that scene makes me sick!


So, you have never encountered anything on the internet that has made you think or act outside of cultural norms?
No. That's why partaking in the melting pot effect through Internet won't change my cultural background.


You're going to have to pick one or the other ('cultural orchestra' or 'melting pot effect') if you are serious about supporting European integration.

It's inevitable.
European integration where?

The opposite of multiculturalism would be allowing minorities to live in ghettos.
Not necessarily.

[Vlerchan]

Sorry this response was late. I wanted to have access to a PC before I got to it.

They're the ones who have to make that effort, nobody called them.
So, your plan is to just allow them into the country and hope for the best?

Not only the traditions matter, but also the way of living.
The point I was trying to make is that most traditions ways of living don't contravene national laws as they stand now. Unless you deliberately legislate in the future so it's anti-difference this is unlikely to change.

On a side note, I was talking to my uncle, who's researching our family tree, the other day, and found out that I'm descended from gypsies. I thought that was funny enough given this discussion.

No. That's why partaking in the melting pot effect through Internet won't change my cultural background.
If you say so ...

European integration where?
The EU.

[Allbutanillusion]

In my opinion, I think there must be a good amount of restrictions on immigration and emigration policies. If people want to live in another country, it's their obligation to fit into the mainstream culture. What's the point of having cultural enclaves inside cities, Chinatowns and stuff like that? Different cultures living in the same place but without any connection is not multiculturalism, it's segregation and it only leads to discrimination, racism and social problems. And the worse is, not only immigrants, most of the times, don't contribute to the growth of our economy, but they also parasite our NHS and our social security system. Here we have something called "RSI", which is basically an income the government gives to certain people (gypsies, for instance) who simply don't want to work and live only on that income. They think it's a right they have, but it's not, it's a privilege. Adding to that, different cultures often clash with each other. Every time I hear on the news about one more police raid in Lisbon, there are always some kind of immigrant community involved. They live in miserable neighbourhoods with no conditions, isolated from everyone else, and spent their days either stealing or doing absolutely nothing, feeding from the income our government gives them freely.

So, are you in favour of a multicultural society or not?


I understand what you are saying. There seem's to be a big movement of Cultural Marxism recently, particularly in the United States. Just for those who may not know what Cultural Marxism is ...,Cultural Marxism (forced "multi-culturalism"), the idea that we must hold all cultures (except our own) sacred.

Cultural Marxists facilitated the racial organization of non-whites, while simultaneously asserting that "race does not exist" for white people and that whites must deny all racial loyalties. Cultural Marxists typically support race-based affirmative action, the proposition state (as opposed to a nation rooted in common ancestry), elevating non-Western religions above Western religions, globalization and free trade, speech codes and censorship, multiculturalism, diversity training, anti-Western education curricula, maladaptive sexual norms, the dispossession of white people, and mass Third World immigration into (wealthy) western countries. Cultural Marxists have promoted idea that white people, instead of birthing white babies, should interracially marry or adopt non-white children.


Based on the content of your thread, I can sense your frustration/anger and I would agree with it.

[Living For Love]

So, your plan is to just allow them into the country and hope for the best?
Or, here's the deal, not allow them at all...


The point I was trying to make is that most traditions ways of living don't contravene national laws as they stand now. Unless you deliberately legislate in the future so it's anti-difference this is unlikely to change.


Alright then, but it's not only the traditions, it's the whole negative impact they will have on the economy and society in general.


On a side note, I was talking to my uncle, who's researching our family tree, the other day, and found out that I'm descended from gypsies. I thought that was funny enough given this discussion.

Once again, I don't have anything against gypsies in particular. It's just that their way of living kind of annoys me, they don't seem to tolerate other peoples very well, they seem to have some kind of inferiority complex, and therefore I have the right not to tolerate theirs as well. Sorry if this offends you, maybe I'm generalising a bit, but it's just that I've yet to see a gypsy person who is minimally respectful.


The EU.

I just want people to assimilate if they come into other countries. It shouldn't be that difficult, should it?

[Vlerchan]

Or, here's the deal, not allow them at all...
And back to my question then, how do you ensure that non-conformists are kept out? How do you propose to identify them?

Alright then, but it's not only the traditions, it's the whole negative impact they will have on the economy[1] and society in general[2].
[1]: Evidence. I posted evidence contrary to this statement on page 1.

[2]: Expand? This just sounds like an opinion.

Sorry if this offends you.
It's cool. I'm not offended.

I just want people to assimilate if they come into other countries. It shouldn't be that difficult, should it?
As our levels of economic development even out it's going to get a lot more difficult.

Cultural Marxists.
Lol.

[Vlerchan]

Laugh all you want but it just shows your ignorance and arrogance.
I presume that 'Marxist' was just thrown in to add bite to your post. Because there's no such thing as a 'Cultural Marxist' and 'Cultural Marxism' - i.e., teachings that Western Culture are the root to all oppression, basically - makes no sense in the above context.

I might take your argument more seriously if you left out the irrelevant buzzwords.

[Living For Love]

And back to my question then, how do you ensure that non-conformists are kept out? How do you propose to identify them?
Law enforcement has to intervene, then, and I have already told you that if they don't conform with the host society, or keep being parasites, they can be deported, just like Germany wants to deport now thousand of legal immigrants who have been unemployed since they entered the country (some even 6 months ago) and are feeding from the subsidies the government gives them.


[1]: Evidence. I posted evidence contrary to this statement on page 1.

I posted evidence that at least in my country things like that are happening (negative impact on the economy).


[2]: Expand? This just sounds like an opinion.

If they're going to economically damage a certain nation, then it will also have social consequences (less jobs to the natives, less money to serve them, overcrowded public services, etc...)