Pro-Abortion procedure video stirs up controversy

[AgentHomo]

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/emily-letts-youtube-abortion-foes-i-wont-respond-hate-n100966

This is the article.

Personally I think she did the right thing. She is reaching out to those struggling with this, making them know the decision to abort a fetus is alright, and should not be shameful. She is a hero to the pro-choice cause. Thoughts?

[Gamma Male]

Yes, making the video was a good thing to do. Too many women feel ashamed about getting abortions because of the prolifers. They need to know there's nothing wrong with it.

[thatcountrykid]

I think its completly ridiculus and she's a horrible person

[conniption]

I think its completly ridiculus and she's a horrible person

Care to elaborate?

[thatcountrykid]

Care to elaborate?

It's the murder of a child. You don't record it like its nothing and post it for the world to see.

[conniption]

It's the murder of a child. You don't record it like its nothing and post it for the world to see.

Murder is a legal term that refers to the unlawful killing of another human being, but abortion is legal, so you can't exactly call it murder. Furthermore, what she aborted wasn't a child yet, by definition.

[thatcountrykid]

Murder is a legal term that refers to the unlawful killing of another human being, but abortion is legal, so you can't exactly call it murder. Furthermore, what she aborted wasn't a child yet, by definition.

It was a senseless killing of a growing fetus. That's a murder.

[Gamma Male]

It was a senseless killing of a growing fetus. That's a murder.

Fetuses aren't sentient. They don't feel pain or emotion, and they don't think. How is aborting a fetus any different than having your appendix removed? They're both just clumps of cells.

[Etcetera]

I don't agree with abortion, so yes I see it as bad. Not her as a bad person, but what she did wasn't good either, nor all the others who get abortions.

Abortion is murder. It is a baby, a human being. It should not be legal, but it is. But just because it's legal does not automatically make it okay.

And also she made the comment that she "was not ready to have a baby," she should have kept her legs closed or taken some other action of birth control rather than taking another person's life, someone who is not capable of defending themselves.

[1_21Guns]

Abortion is murder. It is a baby, a human being. It should not be legal, but it is. But just because it's legal does not automatically make it okay.

And also she made the comment that she "was not ready to have a baby," she should have kept her legs closed or taken some other action of birth control rather than taking another person's life, someone who is not capable of defending themselves.

Honestly where are you from? The dark ages? It's been medially said that an undeveloped fetus is not a human being because it's not. It's a cluster of cells. Just like the cluster of cells/bacteria you have in your nose when you get a cold, or in your throat when you have a cough. Are you gonna keep those because it's 'murder'? No.. probably not. A fetus is essentially a parasite feeding off the host, yes, it can develop into a baby once it's reached a certain state of development, but prior to then, which is when an abortion can happen, it is not a baby. It is not a human. It does not feel anything. It does not have any emotion towards it.
Also stop jumping ahead of yourself, all contraception is only 99% effective. In fact I'm here right now because it didn't work. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. But I'm pretty sure the 'baby' as you've taken to call it is better off not being brought into a family, into a world that's not ready or stable enough to care for it.
I'm so sick of this even being a debate, nobody has the right to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their bodies. Don't agree with abortion? Cool don't have one. Agree with it and feel it's best to have one? Cool if that's what's right for you go for it.

Too many people get on way too higher horse about this, when in reality, other peoples business isn't your business. Yeah she made a video, abortions are scary, I'm not saying I agree with doing it via video, but I do think they should be more socially acceptable, you shouldn't be made to feel guilty for it as long as you're not abusing it. Nobody thinks abortion should be used as a birth control, but sometimes a woman feels it's necessary, and society shouldn't sent out a message that it's not okay to do it.

[Etcetera]

Honestly where are you from? The dark ages? It's been medially said that an undeveloped fetus is not a human being because it's not. It's a cluster of cells. Just like the cluster of cells/bacteria you have in your nose when you get a cold, or in your throat when you have a cough. Are you gonna keep those because it's 'murder'? No.. probably not. A fetus is essentially a parasite feeding off the host, yes, it can develop into a baby once it's reached a certain state of development, but prior to then, which is when an abortion can happen, it is not a baby. It is not a human. It does not feel anything. It does not have any emotion towards it.
Also stop jumping ahead of yourself, all contraception is only 99% effective. In fact I'm here right now because it didn't work. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. But I'm pretty sure the 'baby' as you've taken to call it is better off not being brought into a family, into a world that's not ready or stable enough to care for it.
I'm so sick of this even being a debate, nobody has the right to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their bodies. Don't agree with abortion? Cool don't have one. Agree with it and feel it's best to have one? Cool if that's what's right for you go for it.

Too many people get on way too higher horse about this, when in reality, other peoples business isn't your business. Yeah she made a video, abortions are scary, I'm not saying I agree with doing it via video, but I do think they should be more socially acceptable, you shouldn't be made to feel guilty for it as long as you're not abusing it. Nobody thinks abortion should be used as a birth control, but sometimes a woman feels it's necessary, and society shouldn't sent out a message that it's not okay to do it.

They can say that all they want, but it doesn't make it right. A fetus is a human. That "cluster of cells" that they are killing is a human life in the works of being formed. And they are taking that right away from that child. Just because it can't feel it, doesn't justify it.

I am in a family who doesn't give a shit about me. I'm adopted and a victim of a severe case of child abuse. I have every medical problem under the sun wrong with me. That idea of "maybe the baby is better off" is bullshit.

I'm not on a high horse, I'm stating my beliefs towards the subject. It's wrong. It's murder.

[Elysium]

Since this is obviously taking on a life of its own,
VT Daily Chronicle :arrow: ROTW

[1_21Guns]

They can say that all they want, but it doesn't make it right. A fetus is a human. That "cluster of cells" that they are killing is a human life in the works of being formed. And they are taking that right away from that child. Just because it can't feel it, doesn't justify it.

I am in a family who doesn't give a shit about me. I'm adopted and a victim of a severe case of child abuse. I have every medical problem under the sun wrong with me. That idea of "maybe the baby is better off" is bullshit.

I'm not on a high horse, I'm stating my beliefs towards the subject. It's wrong. It's murder.

(I don't mean you personally)
You can't force someone to keep a child they know they can't look after. Nobody has the right to say what someone can and cannot do with your body. A lot more of these 'murders' would occur if abortion was illegal, because the mothers would die too thank to a host of backstreet procedures that aren't safe. There's a reason it was legalised. To give women a choice, a choice they have every right in the world to have.
I don't think it can be pinned as something that's wrong or right, because it's neither.
Plenty of women feel awful after they've had an abortion, it's not just a case of oh there we go all gone now lets go back to my life. It haunts them for quite some time. I don't know why people think it's just something that happens and that's that, nothing more is said or felt about it.

[Capto]

Fetuses aren't sentient. They don't feel pain or emotion, and they don't think. How is aborting a fetus any different than having your appendix removed? They're both just clumps of cells.

Eh, once it reaches the 26th week of gestation, the nervous system is already highly developed, enough to be able to control basic bodily functions. In addition, neurons are [obviously] already well developed [with the exception of the formation of myelin sheaths in various parts of the body]. By week 30, the brain is nearly completely developed, and functions normally.

And a fetus is not merely a 'clump of cells'. It's already undergone gastrulation, which rather defeats the purpose of being a clump.

Of course, given that most abortions happen prior to fetal nervous development, indeed, most abortions are lacking feeling.

Just saying that fetus is incredibly vague.

[Blood]

I see nothing wrong with this. It's her body and her decision. If she wants to make her choices public, that's fine. Abortion needs to become more publicly acceptable anyways.


I think its completly ridiculus and she's a horrible person

Are you serious or just completely ignorant? Or both...?

[Lovelife090994]

Abortion is terrible in my opinion. Have one if you want but know you have blood on your hands. It is the killing of a babay that now will never see the light of day.

[Lovelife090994]

I don't agree with abortion, so yes I see it as bad. Not her as a bad person, but what she did wasn't good either, nor all the others who get abortions.

Abortion is murder. It is a baby, a human being. It should not be legal, but it is. But just because it's legal does not automatically make it okay.

And also she made the comment that she "was not ready to have a baby," she should have kept her legs closed or taken some other action of birth control rather than taking another person's life, someone who is not capable of defending themselves.

Thank you. Just because something is legal does not make it right. Abortion is denying a child life. At least have the child and give him or her a chance at a future.

[Horatio Nelson]

I don't agree with abortion, so yes I see it as bad. Not her as a bad person, but what she did wasn't good either, nor all the others who get abortions.

Abortion is murder. It is a baby, a human being. It should not be legal, but it is. But just because it's legal does not automatically make it okay.

And also she made the comment that she "was not ready to have a baby," she should have kept her legs closed or taken some other action of birth control rather than taking another person's life, someone who is not capable of defending themselves.

Amen to that! I could not have said it better myself.

[Lovelife090994]

Amen to that! I could not have said it better myself.

Amen, and Here, here again!

[PinkFloyd]

I gotta say that I'm honestly stumped on how to view the delicate subject of abortion. On one hand, the kid being born into a bad home is a bad thing but you're still killing a living being. HOWEVER, that living being is not a baby, it's a fetus.

Overall, I think she did the right thing and to call her out for being a horrible person is not a good thing.

[Irishperson15]

Fetuses aren't sentient. They don't feel pain or emotion, and they don't think. How is aborting a fetus any different than having your appendix removed? They're both just clumps of cells.

I'm confused .. You are comparing a living thing that has potential to a part of the body people don't actually need anymore? Care to justify? "Just" a clump of cells. In that case, you're "just" one minor person on this planet like me and everyone else.

[phuckphace]

those who are saying abortion doesn't kill a person because the fetus is a "clump of cells" are indulging in semantics. the bottom line is, regardless of whether a fetus is or is not merely a clump of cells, terminating a pregnancy ends what would've otherwise resulted in a human life, which is the ultimate point of contention that pro-lifers have with it. so yes, the pro-lifers are right, abortion does in fact result in the death of babies, however indirectly.

personally I am pro-abortion in certain cases, because I believe that there are some things worse than death (like being born to a 16-year old meth addict or lefty attention whore like this woman who filmed her abortion) but I'm not going to pretend like abortion isn't baby-killing and an all-around grisly business. trying to claim otherwise requires an impressive level of cognitive dissonance.

[Camazotz]

I'm confused .. You are comparing a living thing that has potential to a part of the body people don't actually need anymore? Care to justify? "Just" a clump of cells. In that case, you're "just" one minor person on this planet like me and everyone else.

Yes. And?

This video isn't necessarily about pro vs anti abortion, it's about giving support to those that need it in a time of despair that want/need an abortion. Pro-lifers make women that get abortions feel ashamed and scared. As you can see from this thread, these users say things like "You're a murderer!" or "That's disgusting and shameful and it makes you a terrible human being."

A woman that is risk of dying at childbirth that decides to have an abortion (in order to live) will face these hateful comments by millions of strangers and probably many friends/family members. That's why we need to let these women know that we support them (even if you don't agree with their decision) and to not judge them or harass them for living their life, which also doesn't harm a single person.

[Lovelife090994]

Yes. And?

This video isn't necessarily about pro vs anti abortion, it's about giving support to those that need it in a time of despair that want/need an abortion. Pro-lifers make women that get abortions feel ashamed and scared. As you can see from this thread, these users say things like "You're a murderer!" or "That's disgusting and shameful and it makes you a terrible human being."

A woman that is risk of dying at childbirth that decides to have an abortion (in order to live) will face these hateful comments by millions of strangers and probably many friends/family members. That's why we need to let these women know that we support them (even if you don't agree with their decision) and to not judge them or harass them for living their life, which also doesn't harm a single person.

I came prematurely which gave my mother a stroke. She kept me and lived. She blames no one and loves me still. My mother wasn't made of money but she worked and vowed to give me a chance. Abortion isn't right. My mother was single. My father pretty much bailed after he knew my mom was pregnant. It's all on how you were raised. To have a baby or to discover you are having a baby and then saying "no" when things get bad. Now if a baby is parasitic, then that is another story.

[Jean Poutine]

They can say that all they want, but it doesn't make it right. A fetus is a human. That "cluster of cells" that they are killing is a human life in the works of being formed. And they are taking that right away from that child. Just because it can't feel it, doesn't justify it.

I am in a family who doesn't give a shit about me. I'm adopted and a victim of a severe case of child abuse. I have every medical problem under the sun wrong with me. That idea of "maybe the baby is better off" is bullshit.

I'm not on a high horse, I'm stating my beliefs towards the subject. It's wrong. It's murder.

Homicide

222. (1) A person commits homicide when, directly or indirectly, by any means, he causes the death of a human being.
Marginal note:Kinds of homicide

(2) Homicide is culpable or not culpable.
Marginal note:Non culpable homicide

(3) Homicide that is not culpable is not an offence.
Marginal note:Culpable homicide

(4) Culpable homicide is murder or manslaughter or infanticide.
Marginal note:Idem

(5) A person commits culpable homicide when he causes the death of a human being,
(a) by means of an unlawful act;
(b) by criminal negligence;
(c) by causing that human being, by threats or fear of violence or by deception, to do anything that causes his death; or
(d) by wilfully frightening that human being, in the case of a child or sick person.

No it isn't.

People need to stop throwing words like "murder" around when they've got neither the correct definition nor relevance.

You don't want an abortion, fine. Don't have one. I don't see why your totally subjective personal preferences should bar anyone else from getting an abortion if they want to, though. See, that's the amazing thing with choice. It allows everyone to act according to their beliefs. It's called freedom. So how about you people stop shaming women who choose to get one (like it's not a difficult decision already without a bunch of retrograde fanatics bitching and moaning), return to your own lives and let this wonderful ability we have called "free will" do its magic. Live and let live, eh?

As for me, I totally support any woman's choice to do what the Hell they want with their bodies, including what grows within. Frankly put, it's none of my business.

As George Carlin once said, if fetuses were human beings they would count them on the census, and people would say they got two children, not one and one on the way.

[Camazotz]

I came prematurely which gave my mother a stroke. She kept me and lived. She blames no one and loves me still. My mother wasn't made of money but she worked and vowed to give me a chance. Abortion isn't right. My mother was single. My father pretty much bailed after he knew my mom was pregnant. It's all on how you were raised. To have a baby or to discover you are having a baby and then saying "no" when things get bad. Now if a baby is parasitic, then that is another story.

Yes, and that was her choice. No one forced her to have an abortion and no one forced her to keep you. Some parents just can't raise a child. Some just don't want a child. We shouldn't care what their reasoning is, we should just respect their decision and not judge them.

[saea97]

People who sneer from their ivory towers about how abortion is MURDERING A CHILD need to realise that they can scream all they want but can neither redefine the law on homocide nor change the way biology works.

I came prematurely which gave my mother a stroke. She kept me and lived. She blames no one and loves me still. My mother wasn't made of money but she worked and vowed to give me a chance. Abortion isn't right. My mother was single. My father pretty much bailed after he knew my mom was pregnant. It's all on how you were raised. To have a baby or to discover you are having a baby and then saying "no" when things get bad. Now if a baby is parasitic, then that is another story.

This is all great for you and commendable of your mother, but your case study in no way translates to the universal rule that abortion is wrong which you squeezed quickly into the middle of your post.

[Harry Smith]

" she should have kept her legs closed or taken some other action of birth control rather than taking another person's life,

She didn't take anybodies of life-your legally wrong.

I also love that you blame the women for not in your words 'closing her legs', it takes two to tango

[Lovelife090994]

Yes, and that was her choice. No one forced her to have an abortion and no one forced her to keep you. Some parents just can't raise a child. Some just don't want a child. We shouldn't care what their reasoning is, we should just respect their decision and not judge them.

People who sneer from their ivory towers about how abortion is MURDERING A CHILD need to realise that they can scream all they want but can neither redefine the law on homocide nor change the way biology works.



This is all great for you and commendable of your mother, but your case study in no way translates to the universal rule that abortion is wrong which you squeezed quickly into the middle of your post.


How can you possibly be okay with the murder of an unborn child? Have you no soul?

[saea97]

How can you possibly be okay with the murder of an unborn child? Have you no soul?

It doesn't matter what I think. I'm not so selfish as to want the law to revolve around my belief that a nascent group of cells constitutes a child. (again, you do not get to redefine "murder" and "child" in this way). I'm pro-CHOICE, not pro-murder-of-an-unborn-child.

And no, I don't have a "soul". Neither do you. There's no such thing as a soul.

[Harry Smith]

How can you possibly be okay with the murder of an unborn child? Have you no soul?

It's not murder, your legally wrong

[Lovelife090994]

It doesn't matter what I think. I'm not so selfish as to want the law to revolve around my belief that a nascent group of cells constitutes a child. (again, you do not get to redefine "murder" and "child" in this way). I'm pro-CHOICE, not pro-murder-of-an-unborn-child.

And no, I don't have a "soul". Neither do you. There's no such thing as a soul.

It's not murder, your legally wrong

I'm willing to reply for a while since I hate ignoring others so just be prepared. To Saea, we all have souls, we all are alive, you saying there is no such thing is both something that needs merit and also something many disagree on. Also, do you at least believe in heart? Or do you see all humans as husks with nothing?

To Harry, it's "you're". Legally wrong? No, I just hate the idea of a woman who could have a child out of the countless who can't who just kills her baby. Aborting due to complications and death is one thing, killing a healthy unborn child or even a child with disability is very wrong to me. I am not sorry because I will not change on that. A baby is a gift, embrace life I must.

[Jean Poutine]

To Harry, it's "you're". Legally wrong? No, I just hate the idea of a woman who could have a child out of the countless who can't who just kills her baby. Aborting due to complications and death is one thing, killing a healthy unborn child or even a child with disability is very wrong to me. I am not sorry because I will not change on that. A baby is a gift, embrace life I must.

Yes, you are legally wrong. There are very few actual countries where abortion is murder. Having an abortion is usually a separate crime because everybody knows you can't murder something that isn't a human, or alive.

Okay, it is wrong to you. Is anybody telling you your girlfriend should be forced to have an abortion? Why should you get to dictate how everybody else lives their lives? Why should you get to rid them of the choice because you don't like one of the options?

[saea97]

I'm willing to reply for a while since I hate ignoring others so just be prepared. To Saea, we all have souls, we all are alive, you saying there is no such thing is both something that needs merit and also something many disagree on. Also, do you at least believe in heart? Or do you see all humans as husks with nothing?

Oh yeah, while I'm at it, I'll disprove fairies, leprechauns, chi, magic, giants, a teapot orbiting Jupiter... why don't you PROVE a soul exists? That's how it works. Or else I could say "I believe in fairies, can you prove me wrong? You can't? Hence, fairies exist." which is unfathomably flawed. I believe that we have an organ called a heart which pumps blood around our bodies. If by "do you see all humans as husks with nothing?" you mean "do I believe without evidence that there's something supernatural involved in our bodies" then I think you could guess my answer.



To Harry, it's "you're". Legally wrong? No, I just hate the idea of a woman who could have a child out of the countless who can't who just kills her baby. Aborting due to complications and death is one thing, killing a healthy unborn child or even a child with disability is very wrong to me. I am not sorry because I will not change on that. A baby is a gift, embrace life I must.

Great! When you start carrying a child, you can choose not to abort it! Oh wait, you're not female and have no right to dictate that a woman is a murderer for aborting a group of cells. A BABY may very well be a gift, but as you have been told, abortions are not typically carried out on anything even slightly resembling a baby.

[Irishperson15]

Yes. And?

This video isn't necessarily about pro vs anti abortion, it's about giving support to those that need it in a time of despair that want/need an abortion. Pro-lifers make women that get abortions feel ashamed and scared. As you can see from this thread, these users say things like "You're a murderer!" or "That's disgusting and shameful and it makes you a terrible human being."

A woman that is risk of dying at childbirth that decides to have an abortion (in order to live) will face these hateful comments by millions of strangers and probably many friends/family members. That's why we need to let these women know that we support them (even if you don't agree with their decision) and to not judge them or harass them for living their life, which also doesn't harm a single person.

That's not what I said. If you read another post I recently said then you would note that I did acknowledge that in CERTAIN circumstances, abortion may be the only sensible option and that is acceptable. What I was addressing was merely the use of the phrase about an unborn baby "just" being a group of cells, thus possibly implying that it is nothing. That is the attitude of pro-choice people I hate. I respect your opinion differs from mine, but what I do not like is when people attempt to justify abortion by simple, stupid reasons or when they compare unborn babies to "nothing." My older sister died minutes after she was born. My mum and dad were well aware of this during the pregnancy but did not terminate my sister. They thought she deserved a chance and, even though doctors were almost certain she wouldn't survive, they still got to meet their daughter for a few minutes and see her. That is why i am pro-life. Except in the instance where the baby endangers their mother's life, then abortion should not be used. Everyone deserves a chance.

[Harry Smith]

To Harry, it's "you're". Aborting due to complications and death is one thing, killing a healthy unborn child or even a child with disability is very wrong to me.

Great well done on being able to pick up on my grammar-that makes your whole debate look so much better, I can't believe how smart you are.

Not really-your being a hypocrite above. So you support abortion if the mothers life is at risk? What about that poor little baby

[Lovelife090994]

Great well done on being able to pick up on my grammar-that makes your whole debate look so much better, I can't believe how smart you are.

Not really-your being a hypocrite above. So you support abortion if the mothers life is at risk? What about that poor little baby

I want kids one day and I have a problem with anyone who approves of killing a baby.

Oh yeah, while I'm at it, I'll disprove fairies, leprechauns, chi, magic, giants, a teapot orbiting Jupiter... why don't you PROVE a soul exists? That's how it works. Or else I could say "I believe in fairies, can you prove me wrong? You can't? Hence, fairies exist." which is unfathomably flawed. I believe that we have an organ called a heart which pumps blood around our bodies. If by "do you see all humans as husks with nothing?" you mean "do I believe without evidence that there's something supernatural involved in our bodies" then I think you could guess my answer.


Great! When you start carrying a child, you can choose not to abort it! Oh wait, you're not female and have no right to dictate that a woman is a murderer for aborting a group of cells. A BABY may very well be a gift, but as you have been told, abortions are not typically carried out on anything even slightly resembling a baby.

How do you know? For all you know I could be transsexual and one day want a baby? And, no I am not joking. Also, to above the difference is you tried disproving me by saying souls do not exist. I said they do. They do to me so why did you comment on it in the first place? Just go with it. Like if I said May Allah bless you, then you say, "thank you."

Yes, you are legally wrong. There are very few actual countries where abortion is murder. Having an abortion is usually a separate crime because everybody knows you can't murder something that isn't a human, or alive.

Okay, it is wrong to you. Is anybody telling you your girlfriend should be forced to have an abortion? Why should you get to dictate how everybody else lives their lives? Why should you get to rid them of the choice because you don't like one of the options?

What about you? Strongly fighting anyone with a different opinion? I am pro-life. I am Christian. I am conservative. I am traditional. have a problem with that? Fine, but know we are two different people and at the end of the day I respect you until you touch me.

[saea97]

I want kids one day and I have a problem with anyone who approves of killing a baby.

So do I! It's not a baby!


How do you know? For all you know I could be transsexual and one day want a baby? And, no I am not joking. Also, to above the difference is you tried disproving me by saying souls do not exist. I said they do. They do to me so why did you comment on it in the first place? Just go with it. Like if I said May Allah bless you, then you say, "thank you."



What about you? Strongly fighting anyone with a different opinion? I am pro-life. I am Christian. I am conservative. I am traditional. have a problem with that? Fine, but know we are two different people and at the end of the day I respect you until you touch me.

This is your pattern, isn't it? "Here's my beliefs. Don't question me on them. What's that about a debate forum???"

There is no difference between the teapot analogy and your positive claim of souls. It's called a null hypothesis: anything unreasonable that a person proposes can rationally be doubted and dismissed until evidence is presented. That goes for your God and your soul.

As for you being pedantic about the transsexual thing: My overarching point, which I'm sure you didn't miss, was that you have NO RIGHT to dictate the law to be pro-life. You can dictate about your body if you're having a baby, but allowing choice is the only fair thing to do for the general population.

[Lovelife090994]

This is your pattern, isn't it? "Here's my beliefs. Don't question me on them. What's that about a debate forum???"

There is no difference between the teapot analogy and your positive claim of souls. It's called a null hypothesis: anything unreasonable that a person proposes can rationally be doubted and dismissed until evidence is presented. That goes for your God and your soul.

As for you being pedantic about the transsexual thing: My overarching point, which I'm sure you didn't miss, was that you have NO RIGHT to dictate the law to be pro-life. You can dictate about your body if you're having a baby, but allowing choice is the only fair thing to do for the general population.

It isn't birth control to prevent pregnancy; this is killing an unborn baby. This is an abortion! That's terrible. To my beliefs at the moment I don't care. Trample on them if you must but I'm not converting.

[saea97]

It isn't birth control to prevent pregnancy; this is killing an unborn baby. This is an abortion! That's terrible. To my beliefs at the moment I don't care. Trample on them if you must but I'm not converting.


An unborn baby is a foetus, not a baby.

I have no wish to trample on your beliefs, but you aren't defending them and I'm not going to take them as sacrosanct.

[Camazotz]

To my beliefs at the moment I don't care. Trample on them if you must but I'm not converting.

Then there's really no reason to respond to a debate. If you're not willing to come up with counter-arguments, you're not contributing anything.

As we've said, abortion isn't legally considered murder. When you scratch your arm when you have an itch, you're killing skin cells and microscopic life forms. These cells are not capable of reasoning and are not sentient beings. Fetuses do not have these abilities either.

[Jean Poutine]

What about you? Strongly fighting anyone with a different opinion? I am pro-life. I am Christian. I am conservative. I am traditional. have a problem with that? Fine, but know we are two different people and at the end of the day I respect you until you touch me.

Which is ironic because your "opinion" would lead to anybody who would want to do what their body as they will to not be able to. I do not respect people imposing their ideas of right or wrong on others. You are the one "touching" people that want to have the choice to live their life as they see fit.

I believe in choice for everyone, including for yourself and for any woman who doesn't want an abortion. You believe in imposing your conception on others. We could not be more different.

BTW, the abortion debate is one of these issues that people think is deeply opinionated but really aren't. Medical professionals say a fetus isn't alive, so "killing" a fetus is not murder. The law says the words "human being" do not include fetuses. You and people like you would sacrifice a woman's bodily integrity on the altar if it meant that your unfounded "opinions" would be imposed on everyone, but the truth is there is only one right answer and then there's people too stubborn to accept it. That answer is choice, for you AND for them. Does it affect you in any way if some teenage girl in Wyoming wanted to have an abortion? It doesn't, so stay out of that girl's business.

I mean it's really a pretty simple utility calculation. Abortions illegal : conservatives happy, everyone else not happy. Abortions legal : everyone (should be) happy because nobody is forced to act against his/her values and beliefs, which respects both a conservative's choice and another person's. For people who hate big government, you sure like to see things being outlawed instead of being to the discretion of the particular person.

You mention that you're Christian - what about anybody who isn't and Goddamn really wants to have an abortion? What would you say, "just too bad, but MY faith keeps YOU from having an abortion"? Appalling.

Protip : conservatives should run no other life than their own, just like people like me do. Your values are your own, live by them if you like, don't force others to do so.

I think this quote from an old favorite of mine resumes the whole "debate" nicely : "only those who accept will find that acceptance in return." Accept a person's choice to have an abortion if she feels it is best for her, and you will find acceptance of your opinion in return. That's what's awesome about tolerance and choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=JQz_WjTn68U

[Lovelife090994]

Then there's really no reason to respond to a debate. If you're not willing to come up with counter-arguments, you're not contributing anything.

As we've said, abortion isn't legally considered murder. When you scratch your arm when you have an itch, you're killing skin cells and microscopic life forms. These cells are not capable of reasoning and are not sentient beings. Fetuses do not have these abilities either.

What is there to counter? You haven't asked me anything. You are saying a lot without saying anything at all. I shouldn't have to explain myself away like some servant. And that is skin, I'm talking about a potential life. Life is a gift that not all can make.

Which is ironic because your "opinion" would lead to anybody who would want to do what their body as they will to not be able to. I do not respect people imposing their ideas of right or wrong on others. You are the one "touching" people that want to have the choice to live their life as they see fit.

I believe in choice for everyone, including for yourself and for any woman who doesn't want an abortion. You believe in imposing your conception on others. We could not be more different.

BTW, the abortion debate is one of these issues that people think is deeply opinionated but really aren't. Medical professionals say a fetus isn't alive, so "killing" a fetus is not murder. The law says the words "human being" do not include fetuses. You and people like you would sacrifice a woman's bodily integrity on the altar if it meant that your unfounded "opinions" would be imposed on everyone, but the truth is there is only one right answer and then there's people too stubborn to accept it. That answer is choice, for you AND for them. Does it affect you in any way if some teenage girl in Wyoming wanted to have an abortion? It doesn't, so stay out of that girl's business.

I mean it's really a pretty simple utility calculation. Abortions illegal : conservatives happy, everyone else not happy. Abortions legal : everyone (should be) happy because nobody is forced to act against his/her values and beliefs, which respects both a conservative's choice and another person's. For people who hate big government, you sure like to see things being outlawed instead of being to the discretion of the particular person.

You mention that you're Christian - what about anybody who isn't and Goddamn really wants to have an abortion? What would you say, "just too bad, but MY faith keeps YOU from having an abortion"? Appalling.

Protip : conservatives should run no other life than their own, just like people like me do. Your values are your own, live by them if you like, don't force others to do so.

I think this quote from an old favorite of mine resumes the whole "debate" nicely : "only those who accept will find that acceptance in return." Accept a person's choice to have an abortion if she feels it is best for her, and you will find acceptance of your opinion in return. That's what's awesome about tolerance and choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=JQz_WjTn68U

Notice unlike you I am not forcing my beliefs onto another. Just because I am Christian doesn't make me any less than you. Just because the law deems something right that does not make it so. I see abortion as bad and that is my opinion. Or do the opinions of those unlike you mean nothing? I notice you have no issue with those like you but then a person like me comes along and your demeanor changes. Tolerance is a two-way street. I may tolerate something but don't have to like it. I tolerate you, it doesn't mean I agree with you.

[Miserabilia]

What is there to counter? You haven't asked me anything. You are saying a lot without saying anything at all. I shouldn't have to explain myself away like some servant. And that is skin, I'm talking about a potential life. Life is a gift that not all can make.



Notice unlike you I am not forcing my beliefs onto another. Just because I am Christian doesn't make me any less than you. Just because the law deems something right that does not make it so. I see abortion as bad and that is my opinion. Or do the opinions of those unlike you mean nothing? I notice you have no issue with those like you but then a person like me comes along and your demeanor changes. Tolerance is a two-way street. I may tolerate something but don't have to like it. I tolerate you, it doesn't mean I agree with you.

Once again, if you are going into a debate without an open mind to have atleast a possiblity of a change of ideas, it will be completely pointless to come here.
I have been guilty of this myself, but I still try to be open to each new argument, even if it is just to find a new counter argument for it.
There is literaly no point in coming here without accepting an argument that doesn't fit your ideas, no matter what these ideas are.
I have been on this forum for a while now,
and through ROTW and other threads a lot of my ideas have actualy changed and improved over time,
it's a struggle but slowly by accepting different ideas you get a better view of the world.

Back on topic,
I don't see anything wrong with abortion even if it takes away a chance to live.
The argument that you are destroying the future of a life seems a bit ridiculous since the same thing happens whenever a man ejaculates and milions of sperm cells die and thus have had the chance to live taken away from them.

[Lovelife090994]

Once again, if you are going into a debate without an open mind to have atleast a possiblity of a change of ideas, it will be completely pointless to come here.
I have been guilty of this myself, but I still try to be open to each new argument, even if it is just to find a new counter argument for it.
There is literaly no point in coming here without accepting an argument that doesn't fit your ideas, no matter what these ideas are.
I have been on this forum for a while now,
and through ROTW and other threads a lot of my ideas have actualy changed and improved over time,
it's a struggle but slowly by accepting different ideas you get a better view of the world.

Back on topic,
I don't see anything wrong with abortion even if it takes away a chance to live.
The argument that you are destroying the future of a life seems a bit ridiculous since the same thing happens whenever a man ejaculates and milions of sperm cells die and thus have had the chance to live taken away from them.

You do realize that in debate both sides present opinions but YOU NEVER try to change anyone in the process. Sperm is not a baby. Sperm is a sex cell that fertilizes the female egg cell.

[Camazotz]

What is there to counter?

1. Should a woman have the right to decide what happens to her body? You say abortion is wrong, but that means you're taking away that right.

And that is skin, I'm talking about a potential life. Life is a gift that not all can make.

2. Skin cells are alive. They are life forms. By scratching, you are not only killing life, but potential life to become your skin. Isn't all life sacred?

3. If "life is a gift that not all can make," doesn't that make abortions okay?

4. Why do pro-lifers get to tell others what they can/can't do?

[Miserabilia]

You do realize that in debate both sides present opinions but YOU NEVER try to change anyone in the process. Sperm is not a baby. Sperm is a sex cell that fertilizes the female egg cell.

You do realize that in debate both sides present opinions but YOU NEVER try to change anyone in the process.

You do realize that you can be open to other arguments without being changed by them?
Saying any argument doesn't effect you because you'll hold your beleif on something anyway, (which I've seen you do before),
is like putting your fingers in your ears and singing "lalala I can't hear you" as a response to an argument :P

*back on topic::*

An early stage feutus is not a baby.
As a matter of fact, I'd say that in most ways it's closer to a sperm cell than an actual baby.

[Lovelife090994]

1. Should a woman have the right to decide what happens to her body? You say abortion is wrong, but that means you're taking away that right.



2. Skin cells are alive. They are life forms. By scratching, you are not only killing life, but potential life to become your skin. Isn't all life sacred?

3. If "life is a gift that not all can make," doesn't that make abortions okay?

4. Why do pro-lifers get to tell others what they can/can't do?

1. Why do you have a problem with me being pro-life?

2. Skin is alive but is covered with dead skin. We shed everyday. To say a baby can be written off as skin can be scratched off is terrible.

3. If a woman can give the gift of life why take it back?

4. Why do pro-choice people always have a problem with pro-life and write off human life as a waste?

You do realize that you can be open to other arguments without being changed by them?
Saying any argument doesn't effect you because you'll hold your beleif on something anyway, (which I've seen you do before),
is like putting your fingers in your ears and singing "lalala I can't hear you" as a response to an argument :P

*back on topic::*

An early stage feutus is not a baby.
As a matter of fact, I'd say that in most ways it's closer to a sperm cell than an actual baby.

I am open to ideas but I am not going to change what I believe in for you. If I was to be gullable to everything you present then I'd have a different persona every day. Also a fetus is not a sperm cell either. A fetus regardless the species is a potential life like it or not.

[Camazotz]

1. Why do you have a problem with me being pro-life?

2. Skin is alive but is covered with dead skin. We shed everyday. To say a baby can be written off as skin can be scratched off is terrible.

3. If a woman can give the gift of life why take it back?

4. Why do pro-choice people always have a problem with pro-life and write off human life as a waste?

1. It infringes upon women's wrights.

2. Skin cells are alive and form life; without them, we certainly would be dead and are therefore vitally important to human life. To say that it can be written off as less than that is terrible.

3. Maybe they don't want it. Maybe birth would harm the child or the mother. Maybe they can't sustain a family. Who are you to judge which reasons are acceptable? Not everything revolves around your values.

Should all women in the world that are capable of "giving the gift of life," should all women be forced to reproduce as much and as frequently as possible?

4. Human life is not a waste. That's a common misconception about my pro-choice belief: human life is absolutely valuable, and the universal rights that we all deserve should be protected. Sperms aren't human life, eggs aren't human life: they are cells. Embryos and fetuses are not human life either. I value human life.

[Lovelife090994]

1. It infringes upon women's wrights.

2. Skin cells are alive and form life; without them, we certainly would be dead and are therefore vitally important to human life. To say that it can be written off as less than that is terrible.

3. Maybe they don't want it. Maybe birth would harm the child or the mother. Maybe they can't sustain a family. Who are you to judge which reasons are acceptable? Not everything revolves around your values.

Should all women in the world that are capable of "giving the gift of life," should all women be forced to reproduce as much and as frequently as possible?

4. Human life is not a waste. That's a common misconception about my pro-choice belief: human life is absolutely valuable, and the universal rights that we all deserve should be protected. Sperms aren't human life, eggs aren't human life: they are cells. Embryos and fetuses are not human life either. I value human life.

I guess I'll keep with the numbers.

1. How? Me holding an opinion infringes on your rights? So now in America you can't have a different opinion?

2. Skin is vital, that is true. However, human life is also vital. Both are important yet scratching the skin is not the same as aborting a fetus.

3. Do you have any idea how many couples can't have children? Why not give your child a better chance? You can't raise your child? Fine, but let him or her have a chance. And what do you mean? of course I know the whole country and my beliefs are different. And my values are that abortion is not birth control and is killing a life.

4. So you say human life is not a waste and that a fetus isn't alive yet you and I were both fetuses at one point.

[Camazotz]

1. How? Me holding an opinion infringes on your rights? So now in America you can't have a different opinion?

It's not your opinion that fringes upon women's rights, it's the content of your opinion. You're beliefs prevent women from controlling their decisions about their bodies. You're deflecting the argument; should women be allowed to have abortions?

2. Skin is vital, that is true. However, human life is also vital. Both are important yet scratching the skin is not the same as aborting a fetus.

What's different about them? You're eliminating different cells, but it's fundamentally the same. I also don't understand what that sentence means: how is human life vital?

3. Do you have any idea how many couples can't have children? Why not give your child a better chance? You can't raise your child? Fine, but let him or her have a chance. And what do you mean? of course I know the whole country and my beliefs are different. And my values are that abortion is not birth control and is killing a life.

Approximately 10% of American women suffer from infertility problems, so I would venture to guess that around 5-10% of all couples are incapable of conceiving children. Is this a huge problem though? The population numbers are rising exponentially and there are plenty of children that can be adopted. We don't need more people in the world.

4. So you say human life is not a waste and that a fetus isn't alive yet you and I were both fetuses at one point.

Fetuses are alive. My skin is alive. I'm alive. Many life forms are alive. But among my examples, only I am a human life; everything else is non-human.

[Lovelife090994]

It's not your opinion that fringes upon women's rights, it's the content of your opinion. You're beliefs prevent women from controlling their decisions about their bodies. You're deflecting the argument; should women be allowed to have abortions?


Women should be allowed to but I don't like it.


What's different about them? You're eliminating different cells, but it's fundamentally the same. I also don't understand what that sentence means: how is human life vital?


A fetus is more than just "cells".


Approximately 10% of American women suffer from infertility problems, so I would venture to guess that around 5-10% of all couples are incapable of conceiving children. Is this a huge problem though? The population numbers are rising exponentially and there are plenty of children that can be adopted. We don't need more people in the world.


You can't stop people from having children or kill off every child. Let people have a family if they want to. And if a person is infertile and wants a child then they can adopt but I wouldn't say "Well, we don't need any more kids anyway."


Fetuses are alive. My skin is alive. I'm alive. Many life forms are alive. But among my examples, only I am a human life; everything else is non-human.

A human fetus is a human life in-the-making. Why kill it?

[Camazotz]

Women should be allowed to but I don't like it.

Okay, good. Even though you don't like women have control over their own bodies, I'm glad that you think they should be allowed to.

You can't stop people from having children or kill off every child. Let people have a family if they want to. And if a person is infertile and wants a child then they can adopt but I wouldn't say "Well, we don't need any more kids anyway."

I do not support killing every child and I don't want to stop people from having children. I do think, however, we don't need an abundance of offspring. It's difficult enough to sustain a population of more than 7 billion in the world, and that number is likely to reach 10 billion by the end of the century. This is a debate for another thread, but I do hold firm that we don't need more people on this Earth, so there shouldn't be any pressure for a woman considering an abortion that "society needs this child."

A fetus is more than just "cells". A human fetus is a human life in-the-making. Why kill it?

Like I've mentioned before, there are many reasons to terminate a pregnancy. I can't "justify" every woman's abortion, I merely want to support them as a human being and now want to judge them on something I really have no experience with. Women should be able to make decisions regarding their body without judgement from others.

[Lovelife090994]

Okay, good. Even though you don't like women have control over their own bodies, I'm glad that you think they should be allowed to.



I do not support killing every child and I don't want to stop people from having children. I do think, however, we don't need an abundance of offspring. It's difficult enough to sustain a population of more than 7 billion in the world, and that number is likely to reach 10 billion by the end of the century. This is a debate for another thread, but I do hold firm that we don't need more people on this Earth, so there shouldn't be any pressure for a woman considering an abortion that "society needs this child."

Like I've mentioned before, there are many reasons to terminate a pregnancy. I can't "justify" every woman's abortion, I merely want to support them as a human being and now want to judge them on something I really have no experience with. Women should be able to make decisions regarding their body without judgement from others.

Now do you get what I was trying to convey earlier?

[Camazotz]

Now do you get what I was trying to convey earlier?

I think so: you don't like abortions but you're ultimately okay with it in certain situations?

[Lovelife090994]

I think so: you don't like abortions but you're ultimately okay with it in certain situations?

I said that as well as I could earlier, so yes.

[CharlieHorse]

It's wrong. It's murder.

Alrighty, then don't get an abortion when you get pregnant. Problem solved.
Other people will do what they feel is right, and you do what you feel is right. Agree to disagree and we'll have a world that has happier people.

[CharlieHorse]

I do not support killing every child and I don't want to stop people from having children. I do think, however, we don't need an abundance of offspring. It's difficult enough to sustain a population of more than 7 billion in the world, and that number is likely to reach 10 billion by the end of the century. This is a debate for another thread, but I do hold firm that we don't need more people on this Earth, so there shouldn't be any pressure for a woman considering an abortion that "society needs this child."


Can i like save this please thank you :P
couldn't have said it better myself

[Miserabilia]

I am open to ideas but I am not going to change what I believe in for you. If I was to be gullable to everything you present then I'd have a different persona every day. Also a fetus is not a sperm cell either. A fetus regardless the species is a potential life like it or not.

I am open to ideas but I am not going to change what I believe in for you. If I was to be gullable to everything you present then I'd have a different persona every day.

And I'm not asking you to *thumbs up*

A fetus regardless the species is a potential life like it or not.

A sperm and egg cell regardless the species is a potential life, like it or not.

[Lovelife090994]

And I'm not asking you to *thumbs up*



A sperm and egg cell regardless the species is a potential life, like it or not.

You aren't asking me to?

A sperm and egg are the catalyst to the potential life. I'm talking about the fetus. I still don't like the idea of abortion. Have one, kill your baby, but don't ask me to agree with it.

[saea97]

You aren't asking me to?

A sperm and egg are the catalyst to the potential life. I'm talking about the fetus. I still don't like the idea of abortion. Have one, kill your baby, but don't ask me to agree with it.

Your opinion is your opinion and it is abundantly clear that you are committed to it, but you are actively denying the objective fact (read: not subjective to your opinions) that what is aborted is not a baby.

[Miserabilia]

Have one, kill your baby,

It's not killed, and it's not a baby.
If I cut off my right hand, did I kill a baby???
No, I killed the cells in that hand, those cells are alive, but the hand itself is not an alive organism.

[Lovelife090994]

Your opinion is your opinion and it is abundantly clear that you are committed to it, but you are actively denying the objective fact (read: not subjective to your opinions) that what is aborted is not a baby.

It's not killed, and it's not a baby.
If I cut off my right hand, did I kill a baby???
No, I killed the cells in that hand, those cells are alive, but the hand itself is not an alive organism.


How can you be okay with legalizing murder?

[saea97]

How can you be okay with legalizing murder?

I'm not, I'm in favour of people like you not labelling women (who are often scared and distraght) as murderers. Advocating choice is the only moral option.

It's clear that you are very emotionally tied up in this debate, but please, remember that it's a debate. Address some facts. The foetus that is aborted (not murdered) is not a baby.

[Lovelife090994]

I'm not, I'm in favour of people like you not labelling women (who are often scared and distraght) as murderers. Advocating choice is the only moral option.

It's clear that you are very emotionally tied up in this debate, but please, remember that it's a debate. Address some facts. The foetus that is aborted (not murdered) is not a baby.

It is a baby to me. I wouldn't be okay with the abortion but I wouldn't stop the woman. You seem to equate my differing opinion with me marching to an abortion clinic and stabbing the woman in the heart with rhetoric. Just because I am not okay with it doesn't mean I'd try to stop it. Besides with this politically correct world I wouldn't get very far anyway--now that everyone has to keep their opinions to themselves whilst the popular groups can rally all they want against my opinions and never be fined.

[saea97]

It is a baby to me.

Too bad. You can't have an opinion about a fact.

the popular groups can rally all they want against my opinions and never be fined.

It's not rallying when you say "a foetus is a baby to me because of my beliefs which are explicitly unscientific". In short, see above RE opinions and facts. I do not believe you would rally outside an abortion clinic, but you still hold a deeply suppressive and disturbing view (that a woman who has an abortion is a murderer) which is based on ignoring facts about biology in order to maintain your beliefs.

[Gamma Male]

How can you be okay with legalizing murder?
A fetus is no more sentient than an internal organ. "Killing" a fetus is no more wrong than "killing" an appendix. It is not alive in it's own right yet. It doesn't matter that it has the potential to become alive, because it isn't yet. "It" does not exist as a conscience entity.

[Lovelife090994]

A fetus is no more sentient than an internal organ. "Killing" a fetus is no more wrong than "killing" an appendix. It is not alive in it's own right yet. It doesn't matter that it has the potential to become alive, because it isn't yet. "It" does not exist as a conscience entity.

This is a baby in the making. You can't make me pro-choice.

Too bad. You can't have an opinion about a fact.



It's not rallying when you say "a foetus is a baby to me because of my beliefs which are explicitly unscientific". In short, see above RE opinions and facts. I do not believe you would rally outside an abortion clinic, but you still hold a deeply suppressive and disturbing view (that a woman who has an abortion is a murderer) which is based on ignoring facts about biology in order to maintain your beliefs.

Says who? I am pro-life, my views stay. I respect yours but I only look at mine. A view can be suppressive to someone else yet not suppressive. I'm not going to clinics and killing people in the name of my beliefs.

[Gamma Male]

This is a baby in the making. You can't make me pro-choice.


But it is not a baby yet. It has none of the characteristics that give it rights, like the capacity to suffer and think and have desires.
Says who? I am pro-life, my views stay. I respect yours but I only look at mine. A view can be suppressive to someone else yet not suppressive. I'm not going to clinics and killing people in the name of my beliefs.

We're simply having a debate on the internet. Nobody's accusing you of killing doctors, calm down.

[Lovelife090994]

But it is not a baby yet. It has none of the characteristics that give it rights, like the capacity to suffer and think and have desires.

True, babies have little to no rights (i.e. circumcision.) but abortions hurt the baby and the mother.

We're simply having a debate on the internet. Nobody's accusing you of killing doctors, calm down.

You aren't doing me any favors that's for sure.

[saea97]

Says who? I am pro-life, my views stay. I respect yours but I only look at mine. A view can be suppressive to someone else yet not suppressive. I'm not going to clinics and killing people in the name of my beliefs.

Do you not see my point here? Saying "I am pro-life and that's that" is not an argument in defence of the shortcomings and moral problems of the pro-life position. I point out that woman can have deep mental issues when branded as murderers by people like you, and you respond with "So what, I'm pro-life". I'm NOT trying to make you pro-choice, I'm illustrating problems with your position, and you are abjectly failing to defend it. This is clearly not a debate on your end so I don't have the faintest idea why you're responding.

[Miserabilia]

It's not killed, and it's not a baby.
If I cut off my right hand, did I kill a baby???
No, I killed the cells in that hand, those cells are alive, but the hand itself is not an alive organism.

How can you be okay with legalizing murder?

What.
I just explained how that's not murder.
Are you just plain ignoring my post and explanation or did you not read carefuly?
If so, I'll try to explain it again.

It's not murder, as there is no living thing being made into a dead thing.
A feutus is not a living human being.
It's not murder.

It is a baby to me. I wouldn't be okay with the abortion but I wouldn't stop the woman. You seem to equate my differing opinion with me marching to an abortion clinic and stabbing the woman in the heart with rhetoric. Just because I am not okay with it doesn't mean I'd try to stop it. Besides with this politically correct world I wouldn't get very far anyway--now that everyone has to keep their opinions to themselves whilst the popular groups can rally all they want against my opinions and never be fined.

It is a baby to me.

It is by definition not a baby.

now that everyone has to keep their opinions to themselves whilst the popular groups can rally all they want against my opinions and never be fined.

Who is "everyone"?
Your post is contradictory, if everyone had to keep their opinions to themselves nobody would rally.
Nobody is rallying.
Nobody is forced to keep quiet,
you are posting your thoughts out here and so am I.
We all have a right to, and we all can.
I honestly don't see any problem here,
and this is the last time I will respond to this victim mentality, or maybe I can just copypaste the same response next time,
because it's honestly not relevant to the debate. (P.s sorry for going into it myself. I'll go back to debate relevant naow)

[Lovelife090994]

Do you not see my point here? Saying "I am pro-life and that's that" is not an argument in defence of the shortcomings and moral problems of the pro-life position. I point out that woman can have deep mental issues when branded as murderers by people like you, and you respond with "So what, I'm pro-life". I'm NOT trying to make you pro-choice, I'm illustrating problems with your position, and you are abjectly failing to defend it. This is clearly not a debate on your end so I don't have the faintest idea why you're responding.

I never called a mother getting an abortion a murderer. Never in my life have I done that or met a woman who told me she had an abortion. My opinion is not giving mothers mental issues. Abortions always leave some impact on the mother.

[saea97]

I never called a mother getting an abortion a murderer.

A few posts ago, you wrote:

How can you be okay with legalizing murder?

You're ignoring science to continue with your beliefs, and you're of the opinion that abortion is murdering a baby. I don't care (and it doesn't matter) if you don't say that directly to the mother's face. It's still a hurtful and, more importantly, factually inaccurate belief. (On the counts that both "murder" and "baby" are disingenuous terms employed for a pejorative effect)

[Lovelife090994]

A few posts ago, you wrote:



You're ignoring science to continue with your beliefs, and you're of the opinion that abortion is murdering a baby. I don't care (and it doesn't matter) if you don't say that directly to the mother's face. It's still a hurtful and, more importantly, factually inaccurate belief. (On the counts that both "murder" and "baby" are disingenuous terms employed for a pejorative effect)

That made no sense.

[Irishperson15]

A few posts ago, you wrote:



You're ignoring science to continue with your beliefs, and you're of the opinion that abortion is murdering a baby. I don't care (and it doesn't matter) if you don't say that directly to the mother's face. It's still a hurtful and, more importantly, factually inaccurate belief. (On the counts that both "murder" and "baby" are disingenuous terms employed for a pejorative effect)

So it's hurtful for him to have an opinion that a mother is wrong to get an abortion, yet it is also wrong for people like me and him to think it is wrong to kill an unborn human?

[Lovelife090994]

A few posts ago, you wrote:



You're ignoring science to continue with your beliefs, and you're of the opinion that abortion is murdering a baby. I don't care (and it doesn't matter) if you don't say that directly to the mother's face. It's still a hurtful and, more importantly, factually inaccurate belief. (On the counts that both "murder" and "baby" are disingenuous terms employed for a pejorative effect)



So it's hurtful for him to have an opinion that a mother is wrong to get an abortion, yet it is also wrong for people like me and him to think it is wrong to kill an unborn human?

I know this argument. It's the same used to make out all traditional marriage supporters out to be villians all because we hold a different opinion. An opinion is an opinion until it is put into action. Also, why not have it be wrong to kill an unborn human? It's be murder if a person killed a pregnant woman's newcoming baby.

Apparently me not supporting abortion is the same as me stopping it.

[saea97]

So it's hurtful for him to have an opinion that a mother is wrong to get an abortion, yet it is also wrong for people like me and him to think it is wrong to kill an unborn human?

I know this argument. It's the same used to make out all traditional marriage supporters out to be villians all because we hold a different opinion. An opinion is an opinion until it is put into action. Also, why not have it be wrong to kill an unborn human? It's be murder if a person killed a pregnant woman's newcoming baby.

Apparently me not supporting abortion is the same as me stopping it.


Okay, well, firstly, my post made perfect sense. It doesn't surprise me you've chosen to ignore it, though. Which bits would you like me to translate?

I defend both of your rights to have opinions to the extent that the facts allow. I have been arguing the entire way through that your opinion is incoherent because it is based upon a supposition that is patently false. You cannot have an opinion about the fact that a foetus is not a baby (and "it is a baby to me" is not an argument), thus you cannot have the corresponding opinion that "abortion is wrong because it is the murder of a baby".

Bolds for somewhat exasperated emphasis.

[Lovelife090994]

Okay, well, firstly, my post made perfect sense. It doesn't surprise me you've chosen to ignore it, though. Which bits would you like me to translate?

I defend both of your rights to have opinions to the extent that the facts allow. I have been arguing the entire way through that your opinion is incoherent because it is based upon a supposition that is patently false. You cannot have an opinion about the fact that a foetus is not a baby (and "it is a baby to me" is not an argument), thus you cannot have the corresponding opinion that "abortion is wrong because it is the murder of a baby".

Bolds for somewhat exasperated emphasis.

And then you still don't get it... charming.

[StoppingTime]

And then you still don't get it... charming.

I think what you, and a lot of other people on this board fail to understand, is the simple fact that opinions can be wrong. There's none of this "oh well it's an opinion it can't be wrong because it's my opinion" bullshit - if it were my opinion that the sun revolves around the earth...that is an incorrect opinion as a result of the fact that scientific calculations prove me incorrect.
If I were to believe the Earth is only a thousand years old, my opinion would be incorrect because, we've carbon dated objects that are millions of years old.
See what I'm getting at?

So for you to say "it's my opinion that aborting a fetus at X number of weeks is the murder of human being" is an incorrect opinion because of established facts provided to you by science. It's fine if you choose to ignore those and hold the opinion that killing a fetus is murder, but it's not fine for you to say that since that's your opinion, it can't be wrong...for no other reason than it being an opinion.

[Lovelife090994]

I think what you, and a lot of other people on this board fail to understand, is the simple fact that opinions can be wrong. There's none of this "oh well it's an opinion it can't be wrong because it's my opinion" bullshit - if it were my opinion that the sun revolves around the earth...that is an incorrect opinion as a result of the fact that scientific calculations prove me incorrect.
If I were to believe the Earth is only a thousand years old, my opinion would be incorrect because, we've carbon dated objects that are millions of years old.
See what I'm getting at?

So for you to say "it's my opinion that aborting a fetus at X number of weeks is the murder of human being" is an incorrect opinion because of established facts provided to you by science. It's fine if you choose to ignore those and hold the opinion that killing a fetus is murder, but it's not fine for you to say that since that's your opinion, it can't be wrong...for no other reason than it being an opinion.

I know the Earth goes around the sun. That is a fact. I am saying how abortion is wrong. What you and others like you fail to see is how just because I don't agree with you that doesn't make me wrong. I am pro-life, you are not, difference in opinions. Science saying murder is fine is not science, that is fallacy and lunacy. What you fail to get is how in your so-called tolerant world tolerance goes both ways. An opinion regarding the protection of human life is not wrong but sacred. Aborting a fetus 8 months in is murder. You really seem to lack tolerance sometimes.

[StoppingTime]

I am saying how abortion is wrong.

You seem to be saying why you feel abortion is wrong - the sacredness of life, etc. That isn't a fact, so it's meaningless in a debate that's supposedly based on claims you can actually back up with evidence.


What you and others like you fail to see is how just because I don't agree with you that doesn't make me wrong.

Correct. What makes you wrong is believing that "the protection of human life is sacred" when applying that concept to abortion. It's essentially universally accepted in the medical community that within the first 20(+) weeks of pregnancy, abortion is in no way murder. It is not accepted, however, that "killing a fetus is murder because life is sacred." And it shouldn't be.


Aborting a fetus 8 months in is murder. You really seem to lack tolerance sometimes.

I dont recall anyone saying anything about "8 months" but you..?

[Lovelife090994]

You seem to be saying why you feel abortion is wrong - the sacredness of life, etc. That isn't a fact, so it's meaningless in a debate that's supposedly based on claims you can actually back up with evidence.



Correct. What makes you wrong is believing that "the protection of human life is sacred" when applying that concept to abortion. It's essentially universally accepted in the medical community that within the first 20(+) weeks of pregnancy, abortion is in no way murder. It is not accepted, however, that "killing a fetus is murder because life is sacred." And it shouldn't be.




I dont recall anyone saying anything about "8 months" but you..?

Life is sacred. We all die we don't all live.

[Camazotz]

Life is sacred.

All life? What about the microorganisms you kill when you scratch your arm? Or just the life forms you consider sacred? Ultimately though, this is just an opinion. Like Steven has said, the medical community does not consider a 20 week-old fetus human life, which does not constitute murder in almost every country.

We all die we don't all live.

I'm really not sure how this applies at all to the debate. Every living organism dies.

[Lovelife090994]

All life? What about the microorganisms you kill when you scratch your arm? Or just the life forms you consider sacred? Ultimately though, this is just an opinion. Like Steven has said, the medical community does not consider a 20 week-old fetus human life, which does not constitute murder in almost every country.



I'm really not sure how this applies at all to the debate. Every living organism dies.

You went broader than my scope but I suppose I was vague. I was refering to a mother's child. Human life is sacred. A bacteria is life but it is not the fetus in question. Why would you kill a fetus at 20 weeks? Cutting it a little close don't you think? Every human dies but not every human is given the chance to live. A baby is not skin you scratch off or a simple microbe invisble to the naked eye. A baby has a heart, a soul, a feel, a mind, a miracle of arrival. To say a baby's life is as low as as a cell is very scaryy to hear. Hopefully this is what you do not agree with. I'm just saying how a baby is a miracle. No matter how many people there are or how corrupted humanity is a baby is like a fresh start and a new light in the world. Which each hour the future could get a little bit brighter. The child you abort now will never graduate, never love you, he or she will never know life's ups and downs, and he and she will never have the chance to love their parents. With abortion comes that "what if". What if I kept the baby and decided to give him or her to a family who will care for my child?

[Irishperson15]

I think what you, and a lot of other people on this board fail to understand, is the simple fact that opinions can be wrong. There's none of this "oh well it's an opinion it can't be wrong because it's my opinion" bullshit - if it were my opinion that the sun revolves around the earth...that is an incorrect opinion as a result of the fact that scientific calculations prove me incorrect.
If I were to believe the Earth is only a thousand years old, my opinion would be incorrect because, we've carbon dated objects that are millions of years old.
See what I'm getting at?

So for you to say "it's my opinion that aborting a fetus at X number of weeks is the murder of human being" is an incorrect opinion because of established facts provided to you by science. It's fine if you choose to ignore those and hold the opinion that killing a fetus is murder, but it's not fine for you to say that since that's your opinion, it can't be wrong...for no other reason than it being an opinion.

Nobody's opinion is ever wrong though, as long as you can justify it. You may think our opinion is wrong, but at the same time, we think yours is wrong. It's just our different perspectives.

[Irishperson15]

I know this argument. It's the same used to make out all traditional marriage supporters out to be villians all because we hold a different opinion. An opinion is an opinion until it is put into action. Also, why not have it be wrong to kill an unborn human? It's be murder if a person killed a pregnant woman's newcoming baby.

Apparently me not supporting abortion is the same as me stopping it.

I have no idea why you said that, I was agreeing with what you said in a previous post.

[Lovelife090994]

I have no idea why you said that, I was agreeing with what you said in a previous post.

That quote was to the one you quoted. I'm familiar with the argument somewhat and was to saea97. I corrected the quote.

[saea97]

And then you still don't get it... charming.

Would you please explain it to me then? Since you've managed to spend five pages of this thread doing precisely zero explaining. Explain how your opinion can be valid when it is based on distorting scientific truths.

Nobody's opinion is ever wrong though, as long as you can justify it. You may think our opinion is wrong, but at the same time, we think yours is wrong. It's just our different perspectives.

Not true. Your opinion is wrong because it's based on the assumption that a foetus is a baby, which is false; hence any opinions that proceed from the falsehood that "a foetus is a baby" (for example, the opinion that "abortion is the murder of a baby") are invalid opinions. All opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[Miserabilia]

You went broader than my scope but I suppose I was vague. I was refering to a mother's child. Human life is sacred. A bacteria is life but it is not the fetus in question. Why would you kill a fetus at 20 weeks? Cutting it a little close don't you think? Every human dies but not every human is given the chance to live. A baby is not skin you scratch off or a simple microbe invisble to the naked eye. A baby has a heart, a soul, a feel, a mind, a miracle of arrival. To say a baby's life is as low as as a cell is very scaryy to hear. Hopefully this is what you do not agree with. I'm just saying how a baby is a miracle. No matter how many people there are or how corrupted humanity is a baby is like a fresh start and a new light in the world. Which each hour the future could get a little bit brighter. The child you abort now will never graduate, never love you, he or she will never know life's ups and downs, and he and she will never have the chance to love their parents. With abortion comes that "what if". What if I kept the baby and decided to give him or her to a family who will care for my child?

I was refering to a mother's child. Human life is sacred. A bacteria is life but it is not the fetus in question.

You argument involving something being sacred has 0 effect on me and every other atheist.

Every human dies but not every human is given the chance to live.

Right. Only one of the milion of sperms reach the egg and become an embryo.

A baby is not skin you scratch off or a simple microbe invisble to the naked eye. A baby has a heart, a feel, a mind, a miracle of arrival.

Exactly, which is why there is a difference between a feutus and a baby.

To say a baby's life is as low as as a cell is very scaryy to hear.

You can continue placing up a strawmen of what other people are saying, but nobody here wants to kill baby's or is comparing BABY's to anything. We are not talking about baby's .

No matter how many people there are or how corrupted humanity is a baby is like a fresh start and a new light in the world.

Exactly. A baby is that.

The child you abort now will never graduate, never love you, he or she will never know life's ups and downs, and he and she will never have the chance to love their parents.

Yup.
They will never know, too, because they never lived.
Just like sperm cells.

With abortion comes that "what if". What if I kept the baby and decided to give him or her to a family who will care for my child?

What if my sperm didn't reach the egg? I wouldn't be here at all.
WHAT IF .
I never would have existed.
That's terrible let's ban ejaculation.

[Irishperson15]

Would you please explain it to me then? Since you've managed to spend five pages of this thread doing precisely zero explaining. Explain how your opinion can be valid when it is based on distorting scientific truths.



Not true. Your opinion is wrong because it's based on the assumption that a foetus is a baby, which is false; hence any opinions that proceed from the falsehood that "a foetus is a baby" (for example, the opinion that "abortion is the murder of a baby") are invalid opinions. All opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others.

No, it isn't wrong. You think it is wrong, which doesn't make it wrong. I think your opinion is wrong but it's your opinion and you have the right to that. If you are all so pro-choice, then why can we pro-life people not choose to have our own opinions without you telling us that they are wrong? No opinion is wrong if you can justify it.

[Etcetera]

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/06/55/77065578801768e1fa4617deae234de2.jpg

[Camazotz]

You went broader than my scope but I suppose I was vague. I was refering to a mother's child. Human life is sacred. A bacteria is life but it is not the fetus in question. Why would you kill a fetus at 20 weeks? Cutting it a little close don't you think? Every human dies but not every human is given the chance to live.

Yes, every human being that dies has to live. Life and death go hand-in-hand. You can't have one without the other. Again, you're calling a fetus "human life," which is medically incorrect.

A baby is not skin you scratch off or a simple microbe invisble to the naked eye. A baby has a heart, a soul, a feel, a mind, a miracle of arrival. To say a baby's life is as low as as a cell is very scaryy to hear. Hopefully this is what you do not agree with.

I disagree with this because a fetus is not a baby. You keep talking about it like it is. As you said previously, sperms and eggs are just sex cells, but as soon as they merge, they become a zygote. You think that as soon as they merge the zygote is a baby; but it's not. A zygote is not a baby, it's a zygote. As such, a fetus is not a baby either. A fetus is a fetus.

I'm just saying how a baby is a miracle. No matter how many people there are or how corrupted humanity is a baby is like a fresh start and a new light in the world. Which each hour the future could get a little bit brighter.

Just theological rhetoric here...

The child you abort now will never graduate, never love you, he or she will never know life's ups and downs, and he and she will never have the chance to love their parents. With abortion comes that "what if". What if I kept the baby and decided to give him or her to a family who will care for my child?

It's not a child, it's a fetus. The "what if" game is absolutely absurd in this debate. What if the fetus developed into the Anti-Christ? What if the fetus developed into a mass murderer? What if the fetus was born into an impoverished country only to die from starvation and malnutrition or crime within four months, costing the family a lot of heartache and resources?

Nobody's opinion is ever wrong though, as long as you can justify it. You may think our opinion is wrong, but at the same time, we think yours is wrong. It's just our different perspectives.

No, it isn't wrong. You think it is wrong, which doesn't make it wrong. I think your opinion is wrong but it's your opinion and you have the right to that. If you are all so pro-choice, then why can we pro-life people not choose to have our own opinions without you telling us that they are wrong? No opinion is wrong if you can justify it.

Opinions can't be wrong, but false claims can be wrong. Calling a fetus "human life" isn't an opinion, it's a false claim. I can claim "The sky is red because that's what I believe"; that's factually incorrect because it's not an opinion.

image (http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/06/55/77065578801768e1fa4617deae234de2.jpg)

http://liveactionnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/this-is-not-a-tree.jpg

[saea97]

No, it isn't wrong. You think it is wrong, which doesn't make it wrong. I think your opinion is wrong but it's your opinion and you have the right to that. If you are all so pro-choice, then why can we pro-life people not choose to have our own opinions without you telling us that they are wrong? No opinion is wrong if you can justify it.

Then justify it! You and Christopher fail to do this every single time you state that "abortion is wrong because it is the murder of a child" because that is a factual inaccuracy. An opinion is a contingency (ie: it might be right or wrong) only if it does not contradict any facts. And it is a fact that a foetus is not a baby, hence your opinion is not contingent, it is invalid. (or a "false claim" as Camazotz perceptively phrased it)

[Etcetera]

It's not a child, it's a fetus. The "what if" game is absolutely absurd in this debate. What if the fetus developed into the Anti-Christ? What if the fetus developed into a mass murderer? What if the fetus was born into an impoverished country only to die from starvation and malnutrition or crime within four months, costing the family a lot of heartache and resources?


What if it was the next Einstein?
What if it was the one to find a cure for cancer?
What if it was the next Beethoven? Bach?

[saea97]

What if it was the next Einstein?
What if it was the one to find a cure for cancer?
What if it was the next Beethoven? Bach?

Illustrating quite nicely the preceding point that the "what if" game is absurd, thank you.

[Miserabilia]

No, it isn't wrong. You think it is wrong, which doesn't make it wrong. I think your opinion is wrong but it's your opinion and you have the right to that. If you are all so pro-choice, then why can we pro-life people not choose to have our own opinions without you telling us that they are wrong? No opinion is wrong if you can justify it.

. If you are all so pro-choice, then why can we pro-life people not choose to have our own opinions without you telling us that they are wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality

You see, the thing is with this victim mentality I see again and again on these debates, you can choose to have your own opinions, but other people can choose to tell you they are wrong.
Both sides have perfect freedom.

You are saying "choice' would be to let people say their opinion, but cencor people that have to say something against it?
Because that's not free choice.
We are all equal to give our opinions and thoughts.

AND MOST OF ALL;
you chose to enter this thread,
to make a post,
and to reply to other people's replies to your post.
You chose to participate in a debate,
so you should expect people to aggree or dissagree wiht you,
just like I should expect people to disagree with me or make a reply to me.

No opinion is wrong if you can justify it.

Well your opinion didn't really have a sufficient justificatin, and from what I've seen, people are actualy saying that your justification is wrong, and not your opinion.



image (http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/06/55/77065578801768e1fa4617deae234de2.jpg)

Well maybe kids at school are a litttle less prepared for making decisions than adults, but you know, ofcourse that wouldn't look very good for that argument, would it.

What if it was the next Einstein?
What if it was the one to find a cure for cancer?
What if it was the next Beethoven? Bach?

You do realize that you can do this with every sperm cell of a man and every egg of a woman, right?

[StoppingTime]

Opinions can't be wrong, but false claims can be wrong. Calling a fetus "human life" isn't an opinion, it's a false claim. I can claim "The sky is red because that's what I believe"; that's factually incorrect because it's not an opinion.



I suppose that would be a better way to phrase it. Regardless of wording, however, a claim/opinion/whatever is meaningless in a debate I'd you have nothing behind it other than 'because I believe so.'

[Lovelife090994]

You know, just because you think someone's opinion is wrong that does not give you the right to bash it and not expect the same in return.

I suppose that would be a better way to phrase it. Regardless of wording, however, a claim/opinion/whatever is meaningless in a debate I'd you have nothing behind it other than 'because I believe so.'


If a person believes in something then you have no right to change them. If a person believes in God then you have no right to make them not believe. if a person has no beliefs then no one should force beliefs onto the person.

Please do not double post. -Cygnus David

[saea97]

If a person believes in something then you have no right to change them. If a person believes in God then you have no right to make them not believe. if a person has no beliefs then no one should force beliefs onto the person.

This is a debate forum. Your opinion is not sacred here, you have to back it up, and you have been fatally unable to do so.

[Lovelife090994]

This is a debate forum. Your opinion is not sacred here, you have to back it up, and you have been fatally unable to do so.

Perhaps, but in a debate a person does not blatantly insult the other and force them to change either in an instant if at all.

[saea97]

Perhaps, but in a debate a person does not blatantly insult the other and force them to change either in an instant if at all.

Taking offence is your prerogative. I've been nothing but objective. I have no inclination to force you to change your mind, because, for the nth time, this is a debate, in which those with opposing views highlight weaknesses in the other side's argument. If you take offence at your argument - or lack of it - being scrutinized, this is not the forum for you.

[Lovelife090994]

Taking offence is your prerogative. I've been nothing but objective. I have no inclination to force you to change your mind, because, for the nth time, this is a debate, in which those with opposing views highlight weaknesses in the other side's argument. If you take offence at your argument - or lack of it - being scrutinized, this is not the forum for you.

Then what is?

[saea97]

Then what is?

Who knows? You've not debated this point at all, you've just stated your opinion about abortion. All I've ever tried to point out is that that's not enough.

[Lovelife090994]

Who knows? You've not debated this point at all, you've just stated your opinion about abortion. All I've ever tried to point out is that that's not enough.

What else can I give you? I've my words, I've explained the best I can and you still don't want it.

[saea97]

What else can I give you? I've my words, I've explained the best I can and you still don't want it.

This isn't about what I want. There's an objective standard for a good argument. It has to stand up to scrutiny and be based on facts. Yours doesn't and isn't, therefore I reject it and I believe you should too (although I would never force you too, as you have been insinuating that I am trying to).

[Lovelife090994]

This isn't about what I want. There's an objective standard for a good argument. It has to stand up to scrutiny and be based on facts. Yours doesn't and isn't, therefore I reject it and I believe you should too (although I would never force you too, as you have been insinuating that I am trying to).

You just did it again! Ugh, well... You are not religious, I don't expect you to be. You are never going to understand my words or opinions until you walk in my shoes. Likewise I am not atheist or gay so I will never know how that feels. At this rate we'll go in circles.

[Capto]

I think this debate would be far more insightful if any participant had at least a healthy knowledge of biology.

Or if we can properly define personhood.

[Miserabilia]

You just did it again! Ugh, well... You are not religious, I don't expect you to be. You are never going to understand my words or opinions until you walk in my shoes. Likewise I am not atheist or gay so I will never know how that feels. At this rate we'll go in circles.

Why is "gay" in your post, it's a really bad example if you are trying to show other choices of ideas that others can't except.

Perhaps, but in a debate a person does not blatantly insult the other and force them to change either in an instant if at all.
I find this a little hypocritical coming from you but let's just forget about that.

What else can I give you? I've my words, I've explained the best I can and you still don't want it.
Well a large part of your explanation was simply wrong.
Could you try providing an argument for your standpoint on abortion,
but without saying something that is objectively wrong, like "abortion is killing babies", etc.