Who has the burden of proof?

[TheKingIam]

Is it up to the non-religious to prove that there is no god (which is impossible to do) and to disprove the 10000's of religions that have and still do exist
or is it up to the religious to prove that their god is real and that their religious book is the "right one"

:metal::metal:discuss:metal::metal:

[Miserabilia]

It's a fact that the burden of proof is the one making a claim.
Therefore, the burden of proof lies on theists.
It's a simple fact.
though sadly a lot of religious people still don't get this.

[Living For Love]

We (religious people) don't have to prove anything to anyone. You believe it, fine. You don't, fine too. And proving whether God exists or not is not something we can achieve with scientific experiments or logical thinking, it's something you feel and comes from your faith, nothing else.

[Sanctum]

I think religious people should prove god only when someone is asking for it, you can not just pass by and let them remain in ignorance, and besides, there are lots of impious people around insulting our beliefs, are we supposed to just look on?

[TheKingIam]

We (religious people) don't have to prove anything to anyone.

Please don't ever speak for every religion ever, because Islam has this thing called jihad right....and if I don't believe in their god I'm supposed to be killed or penalized

I think religious people should prove god only when someone is asking for it, you can not just pass by and let them remain in ignorance, and besides, there are lots of impious people around insulting our beliefs, are we supposed to just look on?

It's my right to insult your beliefs if I want to and it's your right to be offended

It's a fact that the burden of proof is the one making a claim.
Therefore, the burden of proof lies on theists.
It's a simple fact.
though sadly a lot of religious people still don't get this.

yer well said

-merged multiple posts. -Emerald Dream

[Living For Love]

Please don't ever speak for every religion ever, because Islam has this thing called jihad right....and if I don't believe in their god I'm supposed to be killed or penalized

Well, actually I was just referring to Christianity, sorry if I didn't express myself correctly. I don't know enough about all the other religions in the world to talk about them and say what they think about this, but one thing I'm sure: not all Muslims are equal, there are some more tolerant than others. But again, I don't live in a Muslim country, here all religions have the same rights, so I don't really know enough about that to talk about it.

[Gamma Male]

The one making the claims, obviously. Especially if those claims are completely ridiculous fairy tales. Coughcoughreligioncough

We (religious people) don't have to prove anything to anyone. You believe it, fine. You don't, fine too. And proving whether God exists or not is not something we can achieve with scientific experiments or logical thinking, it's something you feel and comes from your faith, nothing else.

I'm pretty sure when he asked who has the burden of proof he meant within the context of a debate.

-merged double post. -Emerald Dream.

[Sanctum]

Please don't ever speak for every religion ever, because Islam has this thing called jihad right....and if I don't believe in their god I'm supposed to be killed or penalized

you are totally indoctrinated. Islam is not all about killing and stuff, and the thing you are referring to as Jihad is only carried out when one's life is endangered.
and No you do not have the right to insult one's beliefs. whether it's religious or non-religious.

[TheKingIam]

Well, actually I was just referring to Christianity, sorry if I didn't express myself correctly. I don't know enough about all the other religions in the world to talk about them and say what they think about this, but one thing I'm sure: not all Muslims are equal, there are some more tolerant than others. But again, I don't live in a Muslim country, here all religions have the same rights, so I don't really know enough about that to talk about it.

There are different muslims but only 1 Islam and the ones who follow it to the word are the Osama bin Ladens, then tolerant ones are the ones who don't kill us but protest when their god or prophet have been mocked and usually get very violent

you are totally indoctrinated. Islam is not all about killing and stuff, and the thing you are referring to as Jihad is only carried out when one's life is endangered.
and No you do not have the right to insult one's beliefs. whether it's religious or non-religious.

I have the right to insult any belief because there's this thing you probably haven't heard about... it's called freedom of speech, it doesn't really exist in Iran
and no I haven't been indoctrinated, half my family is muslim don't ever speak to me as if you know me please

-double post merged. -Emerald Dream

[Living For Love]

There are different muslims but only 1 Islam and the ones who follow it to the word are the Osama bin Ladens, then tolerant ones are the ones who don't kill us but protest when their god or prophet have been mocked and usually get very violent

Yes, and why do you think they get violent? Why do people have to mock them about their god or their prophet? Just like atheist people hate to hear about gods and anything that's connected to religion, theist people also don't like when their faiths and beliefs are mocked by someone else. It's only a matter of respect and common sense, it has nothing to do with religion, actually.

[Gamma Male]

I have the right to insult any belief because there's this thing you probably haven't heard about... it's called freedom of speech, it doesn't really exist in Iran
and no I haven't been indoctrinated, half my family is muslim don't ever speak to me as if you know me please

Gentlemen, can't we just agree that all religions and races are violent and stupid? White people, brown people, christians, muslims...... It's all just a bunch of meaningless bull.

[TheKingIam]

Yes, and why do you think they get violent?

Because they've been raised wrong

Why do people have to mock them about their god or their prophet?

Because we can

Just like atheist people hate to hear about gods and anything that's connected to religion,

I don't like babies and children scarred with visions of hell and delusions of sin and to stoop as low as to believe in Mohammed riding a horse in the sky and the talking snake

theist people also don't like when their faiths and beliefs are mocked by someone else.

Christians don't kill if we mock they're religion, it's Islam that stands out in that department
the most militant christians are the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church, they're harmless

It's only a matter of respect and common sense,

That's right but have you ever heard of a joke? Jews can take them, christians can take them, but Muslims can't... because they are backwards
look at the big deal they made about these (funny) cartoons in Denmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

it has nothing to do with religion, actually.

It's all to do with religion

[Gamma Male]

Yes, and why do you think they get violent? Why do people have to mock them about their god or their prophet? Just like atheist people hate to hear about gods and anything that's connected to religion, theist people also don't like when their faiths and beliefs are mocked by someone else. It's only a matter of respect and common sense, it has nothing to do with religion, actually.

My God, just how sensitive are you? THIS IS A DEBATE FORUM. PEOPLE DEBATE IDEAS ON HERE. GET OVER IT. Stop saying anyone who disputes your beliefs is being insulting!

[Sanctum]

There are different muslims but only 1 Islam and the ones who follow it to the word are the Osama bin Ladens, then tolerant ones are the ones who don't kill us but protest when their god or prophet have been mocked and usually get very violent

Bin Ladin has never been a Muslim, Islam does not accept them as muslims, they just called themselves muslims
they are a black sheep in Islam, and when it comes to the discussions like this some people use them as excuses to mock and destroy Islam.

[Living For Love]

My God, just how sensitive are you? THIS IS A DEBATE FORUM. PEOPLE DEBATE IDEAS ON HERE. GET OVER IT. Stop saying anyone who disputes your beliefs is being insulting!

I haven't said that, but it's ok.

[TheKingIam]

Bin Ladin has never been a Muslim, Islam does not accept them as muslims, they just called themselves muslims
they are a black sheep in Islam, and when it comes to the discussions like this some people use them as excuses to mock and destroy Islam.

oh ok is that right? so you get to chose who is muslim right? I bet Osama disagrees with you...
During (yet another) Muslim incident, remember the video on youtube parodying Mohammed's life? the one that caused so many riots and lost lives?

Well I asked all (5) of my Muslim friends in my old school what should be done with the creator of the video, they all said that he should be punished in some way
from death to a big fine
These people are just normal Muslims in my shool, imagine if they were the majority in London... these "punishments" would come true

Christians don't mind their prophet being parodied but muslims, ohhh no they just don't want that because they are stuck in a celestial prison in their thick thick heads

[Sanctum]

oh ok is that right? so you get to chose who is muslim right? I bet Osama disagrees with you...
During (yet another) Muslim incident, remember the video on youtube parodying Mohammed's life? the one that caused so many riots and lost lives?

Well I asked all (5) of my Muslim friends in my old school what should be done with the creator of the video, they all said that he should be punished in some way
from death to a big fine
These people are just normal Muslims in my shool, imagine if they were the majority in London... these "punishments" would come true

Christians don't mind their prophet being parodied but muslims, ohhh no they just don't want that because they are stuck in a celestial prison in their thick thick heads

they want that because they respect other people's beliefs and expect other people to respect theirs. our prophet is just like our fathers for us. because he showed us the way we should live in and he tolerated a lot of difficulties.
sorry but what would you do if someone parodied your family.

[Living For Love]

That's right but have you ever heard of a joke? Jews can take them, christians can take them, but Muslims can't... because they are backwards
look at the big deal they made about these (funny) cartoons in Denmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

I'm a Christian and I actually don't mind when people make fun of my religion, but if they already know Muslims get mad when someone does that, then what's the point of keeping doing it?

[Bleid]

The Burden of Proof is on the person espousing a given claim. By this, it necessarily follows that:

1. Those who claim that there is a God have a burden of proof on them.
2. Those who claim that there is not a God have a burden of proof on them.

Similarly:

3. Those who claim that it is likely that there is a God have a burden of proof on them.
4. Those who claim that it is not likely that there is a God have a burden of proof on them.

#1, #2, #3 and #4 are all making claims and they each need to provide their own justification for their claims or they would rightly be called irrational.

[sqishy]

Neutral

[CassnovA]

There may be freedom of speech buddy but this seems to be a very respectful forum; somthing you are far from acting right now.

[Harry Smith]

they want that because they respect other people's beliefs and expect other people to respect theirs. our prophet is just like our fathers for us. because he showed us the way we should live in and he tolerated a lot of difficulties.
sorry but what would you do if someone parodied your family.

I wouldn't kill the person that's for sure

[Sanctum]

There may be freedom of speech buddy but this seems to be a very respectful forum; somthing you are far from acting right now.

u mean insulting one's belief is freedom of speech? why would one even do that?

then if someone insulted my family should i not get mad at them?

[Stingray]

My Religion teacher argued it this way:

Imagine there's a teapot floating around our planet in orbit-
Is it the job of those who believe in it to prove it's there or the job of the non believers to prove it isn't- He, although religious, said that the burden falls on the believers as they (mostly) want to persuade the non believers of its existence, despite it seeming unlikely, whereas the non believers are content with not believing.

It's a good point but I'd say it doesn't matter who has to prove it, you should stick with your views and let others stick with theirs.

[Sanctum]

I wouldn't kill the person that's for sure

right, you would not kill him because it's something that would be solved with an apology or something. but when a religion which thousands of people believe in it is insulted, u cant just hesitate because father of all those people is insulted and and it can't be ignored.

[Blood]

We (religious people) don't have to prove anything to anyone. You believe it, fine. You don't, fine too. And proving whether God exists or not is not something we can achieve with scientific experiments or logical thinking, it's something you feel and comes from your faith, nothing else.

You believe in the Bible, correct?

Mark 16: 15-16: "15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.""

1 Peter 3:15: "15But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect."

Matthew 28: 18-20: 18"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”


I agree that you can't necessarily prove it with scientific experiments or logical thinking, but those two things should have an influence on what you believe. Believing something while having the mindset of "fuck it, I can believe what I want why I want however I want and I don't have to explain my beliefs to anyone" comes off as ignorant. Even if you don't have solid proof for your beliefs, you should always be ready to defend them.

If what you're saying is true, why would religious people be out witnessing and trying to prove to unbelievers that there is a God, and that if you don't believe in him you're going to hell?

[Sanctum]

If what you're saying is true, why would religious people be out witnessing and trying to prove to unbelievers that there is a God, and that if you don't believe in him you're going to hell?

who says unbelievers will go to hell? going to hell or heaven is based on what you do in his life. you do good things , you go to heaven , you do bad things you go to hell. now what are bad things and good things to do? religion will tell you that. you might like doing something but it might actually hurt you, you might hate something, but it might be expedient to do it
imagine a person who has grown up in a whole atheist family and no one even talks about god let alone prove his existence. and then he dies with this belief. so how can this person enter the hell?

[Living For Love]

You believe in the Bible, correct?

Mark 16: 15-16: 15"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.""

1 Peter 3:15: "15But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect."

Matthew 28: 18-20: 18"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”


I agree that you can't necessarily prove it with scientific experiments or logical thinking, but those two things should have an influence on what you believe. Believing something while having the mindset of "fuck it, I can believe what I want why I want however I want and I don't have to explain my beliefs to anyone" comes off as ignorant. Even if you don't have solid proof for your beliefs, you should always be ready to defend them.

If what you're saying is true, why would religious people be out witnessing and trying to prove to unbelievers that there is a God, and that if you don't believe in him you're going to hell?

I was expecting this when I saw your name on the "Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread" bar...

I have to admit, for someone who considers herself an atheist, you know a lot about the Bible, and that's good.

I'm going to try and keep this simple. What God told us is that we should "preach the gospel to every living creature", that is, it is our duty, as Christians, to make sure everyone knows about the gospel preached by Jesus. Even more, he told us that it is our fault (it is Christians' fault) that there are still people in this world who haven't heard about God, Jesus, Bible, the gospel, etc..., because it is our duty to preach it.

Now, when someone has already heard about the gospel and the Bible but still refuses to believe in it, and refuses to believe there is a God, then it's not on our hands anymore to convert that person, but on God's hands. It is God, through the Holy Ghost, that's going to make that person realise the wrongfulness of their ways, and make them believe that there's actually someone who loves them and want the to be saved.

And now you may ask: so why shouldn't we keep discussing with that person and trying to convert them, even if she has already heard about the gospel but still not believing it?

The answer is in Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

I know how this seems so stupid and dumb in an atheist perspective, but it's what I believe in.

[Blood]

who says unbelievers will go to hell? going to hell or heaven is based on what you do in his life. you do good things , you go to heaven , you do bad things you go to hell. now what are bad things and good things to do? religion will tell you that.
imagine a person who has grown up in a whole atheist family and no one even talks about god let alone prove his existence. and then he dies with this belief. so how can he enter the hell?

I don't believe in a heaven or hell. I'm talking about what religious people believe. Christians, specifically. John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

I'm not defending the Bible, I'm just throwing the facts out there. It's flawed, controversial and hypocritical. That's why I don't believe in it.


I was expecting this when I saw your name on the "Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread" bar...

I have to admit, for someone who considers herself an atheist, you know a lot about the Bible, and that's good.

I'm going to try and keep this simple. What God told us is that we should "preach the gospel to every living creature", that is, it is our duty, as Christians, to make sure everyone knows about the gospel preached by Jesus. Even more, he told us that it is our fault (it is Christians' fault) that there are still people in this world who haven't heard about God, Jesus, Bible, the gospel, etc..., because it is our duty to preach it.

Now, when someone has already heard about the gospel and the Bible but still refuses to believe in it, and refuses to believe there is a God, then it's not on our hands anymore to convert that person, but on God's hands. It is God, through the Holy Ghost, that's going to make that person realise the wrongfulness of their ways, and make them believe that there's actually someone who loves them and want the to be saved.

And now you may ask: so why shouldn't we keep discussing with that person and trying to convert them, even if she has already heard about the gospel but still not believing it?

The answer is in Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

I know how this seems so stupid and dumb in an atheist perspective, but it's what I believe in.


Oh good!

Haha. I'm not an atheist any more; I'm an agnostic theist. I know a lot about the Bible because I've been raised believing in it for the majority of my life.

I understand your points and your beliefs, I just don't agree with them. I wouldn't call it stupid or dumb; it's illogical, but a few of my beliefs could be considered the same. We have a right to believe whatever we want. I'll just never see the point of committing so much time worshiping and praying to a god that can't be proved or disproved.

Also, there's no need to keep things simple. I'm a big girl, I can handle big words and deep subjects.

[Miserabilia]

you are totally indoctrinated. Islam is not all about killing and stuff, and the thing you are referring to as Jihad is only carried out when one's life is endangered.
and No you do not have the right to insult one's beliefs. whether it's religious or non-religious.

Oh, it's this again.
"Religion of peace".
Islam is one of the most popular religions with beleifs that clearly stimulate violence and oppression.
Not to mention,
there was also a Jihad for when a guy drew a picture of muhammed;
how exactly is their lives in danger then?

[plebble]

I have no idea what this question means.

[Stronk Serb]

Because they've been raised wrong



Because we can



I don't like babies and children scarred with visions of hell and delusions of sin and to stoop as low as to believe in Mohammed riding a horse in the sky and the talking snake



Christians don't kill if we mock they're religion, it's Islam that stands out in that department
the most militant christians are the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church, they're harmless



That's right but have you ever heard of a joke? Jews can take them, christians can take them, but Muslims can't... because they are backwards
look at the big deal they made about these (funny) cartoons in Denmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy



It's all to do with religion

I also remember a fuckload big deal being made by Christians when they started teaching evolution at school.

[Sanctum]

Oh, it's this again.
"Religion of peace".
Islam is one of the most popular religions with beleifs that clearly stimulate violence and oppression.
Not to mention,
there was also a Jihad for when a guy drew a picture of muhammed;
how exactly is their lives in danger then?

yes, a jihad had probably been announced but you don't have any ideas why. and tell me what's the point of ridiculing a religious figure?

[Miserabilia]

yes, a jihad had probably been announced but you don't have any ideas why. and tell me what's the point of ridiculing a religious figure?

They did a jihad on him for drawing some guy.
And what's the point of ridiculing a religious figure?
I don't know but it certainly shows islam for the violent and aggresive religion it is.

The Burden of Proof is on the person espousing a given claim. By this, it necessarily follows that:

1. Those who claim that there is a God have a burden of proof on them.
2. Those who claim that there is not a God have a burden of proof on them.

Similarly:

3. Those who claim that it is likely that there is a God have a burden of proof on them.
4. Those who claim that it is not likely that there is a God have a burden of proof on them.

#1, #2, #3 and #4 are all making claims and they each need to provide their own justification for their claims or they would rightly be called irrational.


I don't quite aggree with that; I aggree with 1 and 2, gnostics have a burden of proof;
but not with 4.

Because the claim that a being like god would exist and do the things described in the bible is an EXTRAORDINAIRY claim;
there are a lot of things about it that contradict everything we know of how the world works.
Therefore it is less likely to be there; not impossible, but unlikely, just like a unicorn or a wizard existing is not likely.

[Left Now]

I wouldn't kill the person that's for sure

No one would ever kill the person only because he has insulted someone who is loved by some other,unless he tries to disturb a society and make a group of people angry willingly.In that case,I say he deserves to be punished,however his punishment should be dependent on situation and logic.If he was doing this work while he was in an Islamic society itself,then he surely deserves death because he is willingly trying to disturb the security of that society(according to Islam laws anyway) ;

But if he was doing this out of an Islamic society,well that's another case and no Muslim has to try to harm him physically,but all of them have to try to answer his insults in an appropriate way(Also,remember that no Muslim has ever insulted Jesus or other prophets while both Jews and Christians have).Anyway,I believe insulting a thing or a person who is beloved by a group of people is always a stupid act.If you want you can complain about him or her but you should never be allowed to insult others.

Also remember that in Islam : Insulting Muhammad = Insulting Jesus = Insulting Moses = Insulting Abraham = Insulting Isaac and so on...

They did a jihad on him for drawing some guy.
And what's the point of ridiculing a religious figure?
I don't know but it certainly shows islam for the violent and aggresive religion it is.



Aha.And what kind of proof do you have for that?

[Miserabilia]

No one would ever kill the person only because he has insulted someone who is loved by some other,unless he tries to disturb a society and make a group of people angry willingly.In that case,I say he deserves to be punished,however his punishment should be dependent on situation and logic.If he was doing this work while he was in an Islamic society itself,then he surely deserves death because he is willingly trying to disturb the security of that society(according to Islam laws anyway) ;

But if he was doing this out of an Islamic society,well that's another case and no Muslim has to try to harm him physically,but all of them have to try to answer his insults in an appropriate way(Also,remember that no Muslim has ever insulted Jesus or other prophets while both Jews and Christians have).Anyway,I believe insulting a thing or a person who is beloved by a group of people is always a stupid act.If you want you can complain about him or her but you should never be allowed to insult others.

Also remember that in Islam : Insulting Muhammad = Insulting Jesus = Insulting Moses = Insulting Abraham = Insulting Isaac and so on...



Aha.And what kind of proof do you have for that?

For islam being a violent religion?

[Harry Smith]

right, you would not kill him because it's something that would be solved with an apology or something. but when a religion which thousands of people believe in it is insulted, u cant just hesitate because father of all those people is insulted and and it can't be ignored.

No one would ever kill the person only because he has insulted someone who is loved by some other,unless he tries to disturb a society and make a group of people angry willingly.In that case,I say he deserves to be punished,however his punishment should be dependent on situation and logic.If he was doing this work while he was in an Islamic society itself,then he surely deserves death because he is willingly trying to disturb the security of that society(according to Islam laws anyway) ;

But if he was doing this out of an Islamic society,well that's another case and no Muslim has to try to harm him physically,but all of them have to try to answer his insults in an appropriate way(Also,remember that no Muslim has ever insulted Jesus or other prophets while both Jews and Christians have).Anyway,I believe insulting a thing or a person who is beloved by a group of people is always a stupid act.If you want you can complain about him or her but you should never be allowed to insult others.

Also remember that in Islam : Insulting Muhammad = Insulting Jesus = Insulting Moses = Insulting Abraham = Insulting Isaac and so on...



Aha.And what kind of proof do you have for that?

This is the biggest problem I have with Islam-it's anti-freedom of speech. Everyone should have the right to discuss, debate and even disrespect religion. You can't cut someone's head of for insulting Allah, just like I can't cut someone's head off for insulting homosexuality.

Whilst I'm aware this is an extreme generalization the impression I get is that the Islamic view about freedom of speech is that of a 10 year old-if you insult me I'll hurt you''. You need to be rationalize about things, I don't condone the death Penalty in any circumstances, and I don't understand how you could kill/injure something for what they've said.

This is why Islamic states are truly oppressive when they follow such draconian laws, you can't kill someone for disagreeing with you

[Left Now]

For islam being a violent religion?

Of course,so you thought that we were talking about something else?

[Miserabilia]

Of course,so you thought that we were talking about something else?

What no I said two things, so I was just asking what exaclty you wanted proof for.

Well, proof for islam being a violent religion?
The extremely violent reaction to anything that goes outside of their religious boundaries, the extreme punishments for anyone breaking a rule from islam, to the oppression of women, etc etc.

[Left Now]

This is the biggest problem I have with Islam-it's anti-freedom of speech. Everyone should have the right to discuss, debate and even disrespect religion. You can't cut someone's head of for insulting Allah, just like I can't cut someone's head off for insulting homosexuality.

Whilst I'm aware this is an extreme generalization the impression I get is that the Islamic view about freedom of speech is that of a 10 year old-if you insult me I'll hurt you''. You need to be rationalize about things, I don't condone the death Penalty in any circumstances, and I don't understand how you could kill/injure something for what they've said.

This is why Islamic states are truly oppressive when they follow such draconian laws, you can't kill someone for disagreeing with you

That's not about disagreeing my friend,it's about trying to destroy something which nearly all people in an area have tried so much to build it and keep it unharmed.Even if you disagree with Islam it doesn't concern the Muslims,they will only ask you why,but insulting is something else.When someone insults Islam while he himself is in an Islamic society,it means that he is trying to disconcert that society and destroy its harmony.

Most of the times it's not the government who is going to react against that person but individuals themselves,and because of this they may even do somethings which are even against the social rules of the Islam itself;why?Because they think that they are the certain people who have to deal with him,and so this itself is enough to put a whole society into chaos.Once again I'm telling you disagreeing is different from insulting.

Disagreements sometimes can even reform some views and improve what some people think about a certain thing,but insulting can only make those who have been insulted try to fight back.Don't you agree?

[Horatio Nelson]

I was expecting this when I saw your name on the "Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread" bar...

I have to admit, for someone who considers herself an atheist, you know a lot about the Bible, and that's good.

I'm going to try and keep this simple. What God told us is that we should "preach the gospel to every living creature", that is, it is our duty, as Christians, to make sure everyone knows about the gospel preached by Jesus. Even more, he told us that it is our fault (it is Christians' fault) that there are still people in this world who haven't heard about God, Jesus, Bible, the gospel, etc..., because it is our duty to preach it.

Now, when someone has already heard about the gospel and the Bible but still refuses to believe in it, and refuses to believe there is a God, then it's not on our hands anymore to convert that person, but on God's hands. It is God, through the Holy Ghost, that's going to make that person realise the wrongfulness of their ways, and make them believe that there's actually someone who loves them and want the to be saved.

And now you may ask: so why shouldn't we keep discussing with that person and trying to convert them, even if she has already heard about the gospel but still not believing it?

The answer is in Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

I know how this seems so stupid and dumb in an atheist perspective, but it's what I believe in.

Yes! I agree with you 110% my friend.

[Bleid]

I don't quite aggree with that; I aggree with 1 and 2, gnostics have a burden of proof;
but not with 4.

Because the claim that a being like god would exist and do the things described in the bible is an EXTRAORDINAIRY claim;
there are a lot of things about it that contradict everything we know of how the world works.
Therefore it is less likely to be there; not impossible, but unlikely, just like a unicorn or a wizard existing is not likely.

Ah, but the claim for #4 was that if you claim it is less likely, then you have a burden of proof (you provided evidence for why you say it is unlikely).

In other words - it needs to be unlikely for some reason.

You provided a reason for why you believe it is unlikely, so why do you disagree with #4 when it's stating that there needs to be a reason for the unlikeliness (which you provided us with your reason why you think so)?

It's not to say that we cannot say that it is likely or unlikely, merely that the claiming of either of those requires some justification.

The case that #4 is saying is irrational is:

1. It's not likely that there is a God and I will present no justification for this claim.

Not:

2. It's not likely that there is a God and here is my justification: ___

Since, the burden is on the one who makes claims. There needs to be a reason that the likelihood of God existing is < 50% (same for > 50%) rather than = 50%

[Left Now]

What no I said two things, so I was just asking what exaclty you wanted proof for.

Well, proof for islam being a violent religion?
The extremely violent reaction to anything that goes outside of their religious boundaries, the extreme punishments for anyone breaking a rule from islam, to the oppression of women, etc etc.

And do really all Muslims act same about all the things which you've mentioned above?How many Muslims do you really know then?Or let me ask it this way,how much have you ever studied Islam?

[Miserabilia]

Ah, but the claim for #4 was that if you claim it is less likely, then you have a burden of proof (you provided evidence for why you say it is unlikely).

In other words - it needs to be unlikely for some reason.

You provided a reason for why you believe it is unlikely, so why do you disagree with #4 when it's stating that there needs to be a reason for the unlikeliness (which you provided us with your reason why you think so)?

It's not to say that we cannot say that it is likely or unlikely, merely that the claiming of either of those requires some justification.

Oh as in reasoning/justification.
I thought you meant that you have to show imperical data to demonstrate that the existence of a god is les likely.
But okay :P

And do really all Muslims act same about all the things which you've mentioned above?How many Muslims do you really know then?Or let me ask it this way,how much have you ever studied Islam?

No, did I say they all do?
I'm saying that in general, it's agressive and oppresive, as is demonstrated clearly in countries with strict islamic laws.
It's midieval and oppresive,
no matter how much I study islam,
these people will continue to be tortured stoned and killed for doing whatever's against their religion.

[Bleid]

Oh as in reasoning/justification.
I thought you meant that you have to show imperical data to demonstrate that the existence of a god is les likely.
But okay :P

Yes. Any sort of justification, including:

1. Logical argument.
2. Empirical evidence.
3. A note from your mother.

And all other valid reasons to believe the truth of a claim.

[Typhlosion]

-- Friendly reminder --

This is on burden of proof, not if Islam is evil or not.

In general terms, the burden of proof is on the religious, religion being a 'non-default' state of spirituality (no-one is born religious).
But, in a discussion, then the burden of proof is always with who is doing a claim. Otherwise atheism vs theism debates would be "prove me you're right and until then I have nothing to say!".

[StoppingTime]

Because the claim that a being like god would exist and do the things described in the bible is an EXTRAORDINAIRY claim;
there are a lot of things about it that contradict everything we know of how the world works.
Therefore it is less likely to be there; not impossible, but unlikely, just like a unicorn or a wizard existing is not likely.

God and bible don't always go together, so to say that someone who claims a god doesn't exist based on the fact that the bible seems unlikely doesn't make any sense.

Also, this thread needs to stop going off on tangents about Islam being a religion solely based on violence and "Jihad." There are over 1.5 billion people who practice Islam, so for anyone to make such an outrageous claim that the religion as a whole preaches violence towards its followers is ridiculous and uneducated. So stop

[Left Now]

No, did I say they all do?
I'm saying that in general, it's agressive and oppresive, as is demonstrated clearly in countries with strict islamic laws.
It's midieval and oppresive,
no matter how much I study islam,
these people will continue to be tortured stoned and killed for doing whatever's against their religion.

And this is the exact thing which we are arguing about!Even in Islamic nations which are known for strict Islamic laws,still many laws are against the exact thing which Sharia or better to say "The Laws of Islam" have said.For example in Saudi Arabia?Where the hell in Quran have you ever seen written that men have to keep the women and girls of their household inside their houses and not let them be active in society?First you have to study what Islam itself has said,not just trying to consider a whole cause something evil and oppressive only because some of its followers and so-called Islamic nations are.

[tovaris]

if i say i have descovered a new element i must prove that claim,
if i say that en element numneber 116 cannot be made i must prove that too
so basicly any kind of a clame i make i must prove it

[Stronk Serb]

if i say i have descovered a new element i must prove that claim,
if i say that en element numneber 116 cannot be made i must prove that too
so basicly any kind of a clame i make i must prove it

My thoughts. If theists claim that there is a god or gods, they must prove it, if atheists make a claim there is no god or gods, they must prove it. In Serbia, it's mostly the theists making the claim. They do it aggressively and irritatingly, so I shoot their arguments down dead in the water.

[Capto]

We have the burden of proof. Not that I particularly care about proving it.

Please don't ever speak for every religion ever, because Islam has this thing called jihad right....and if I don't believe in their god I'm supposed to be killed or penalized


Sir, I definitely don't want to kill you.

Plus that's not even what jihad is.

[Miserabilia]

And this is the exact thing which we are arguing about!Even in Islamic nations which are known for strict Islamic laws,still many laws are against the exact thing which Sharia or better to say "The Laws of Islam" have said.For example in Saudi Arabia?Where the hell in Quran have you ever seen written that men have to keep the women and girls of their household inside their houses and not let them be active in society?First you have to study what Islam itself has said,not just trying to consider a whole cause something evil and oppressive only because some of its followers and so-called Islamic nations are.

I'll not go too off topic and just make a new thread about this today :)

God and bible don't always go together, so to say that someone who claims a god doesn't exist based on the fact that the bible seems unlikely doesn't make any sense.

Also, this thread needs to stop going off on tangents about Islam being a religion solely based on violence and "Jihad." There are over 1.5 billion people who practice Islam, so for anyone to make such an outrageous claim that the religion as a whole preaches violence towards its followers is ridiculous and uneducated. So stop
God and bible don't always go together, so to say that someone who claims a god doesn't exist based on the fact that the bible seems unlikely doesn't make any sense.


Christians beleive that the bible is the word of god, and that their god is the god described in the bible.
Furthermore, the existence of any being like a god is unlikely as it's something we've never observed in nature.

[Lovelife090994]

Some of you "atheists" are the same I see bashing every religion with misconceptions and accusations, stop. I know a fair few Muslims and none are these "terrorists" some of you think. Islam fundamentaly is of peace. While Islam does speak very harshly about nonbelievers versus Christianity's message of praying for nonbelievers and turning a cheek this doesn't rank one above the other. If both faiths were as flawed as you think then why out of over 7 billion do well over 3 billion follow both faiths respecitively? Who's to say we are right or wrong? We all hold our faith and that is what matters. As a Christian I live myself to be like Jesus, I live to pray for those with no hope, I seek to support my Jewish brethren and respect my Muslim brethren and the world. I do not boast, I simply believe and love God by faith, not sight. Blessed are those who believe yet have not seen. We must all stop this petty fight. Put aside the differences and live. Religion stands as a beacon of hope, love, understanding, inspiration, history, and art to all. It should not divide but sadly we humans have a tendacy to divide ourselves. I pray this will change, but who knows how long humanity's heart will lighten.

[TheKingIam]

Funny... so far the only ones who are religious and said they don't have the burden of proof are 2 muslims
lmfao

[CharlieHorse]

can i just say
honestly, who gives a shit?
if everyone is happy, just let it be.
why question people who are living their life the way they want to?

[Stronk Serb]

Did they start violently protesting and killing each other over it?


I am not sure, so I will not answer that. But the Christians did bad shit too. Remember the Mayas, Aztecs and the Incas? Remember that Scandinavian guy who killed all those innocent kids in the name of God? Do you know of the Ustasha dogs who butchered my family and many others in the name of the fucking cross? The Chetnik and domobran scum too.

[TheKingIam]

I am not sure, so I will not answer that. But the Christians did bad shit too. Remember the Mayas, Aztecs and the Incas? Remember that Scandinavian guy who killed all those innocent kids in the name of God? Do you know of the Ustasha dogs who butchered my family and many others in the name of the fucking cross? The Chetnik and domobran scum too.

I hate when people do this, your talking about the past right now
right here, right now in the world I live in, Islam is the problem

[Left Now]

You do realize that more than half of the qran is about this... you know nothing about your own religion
incredible, we've reached a new low

Nonsense;More than half of the Quran was revealed to Muhammad when Muslims were fighting their enemies in Arabia and majority of them order Muslims to kill "Moshreks" who were polytheists of Mecca and Arabia in that time.

Even after the conquest of Mecca there were still lots polytheists in that city who didn't convert to Islam but agreed to not fight against the Islamic government neither. Quran only orders Muslims to fight those who want to fight them not all those who believe in another faith.

Those who were publicly known as non Muslims in an Islamic government,should have paid an amount of money if they wanted to live in there,otherwise Muslim rulers didn't have any responsibilities to keep them and their belongings secured.Why?Because alongside regular taxes which people usually were going to pay,Muslims should have paid some other amounts of money as "Fitrieh" and "Khoms" and such things like these either while non-muslims were only supposed to pay their regular taxes.

Also in the times of war,only Muslims were going to defend their lands while non Muslims were not going to help them or provide them supplies in times of need.However,if they could provide the Islamic government anything which could help them in those times,from supplies to warriors,then they didn't need to pay that amount of money neither.

The money which Muslims were going to pay to Islamic government was used to improve the conditions of the area where all of them were living in,while non Muslims didn't have any right to use those improvements.So because of this,Islam has ordered those non muslims who are living in an Islamic society to pay "Jaziyah" if they want to live in an Islamic society like Muslims who are living there,otherwise,Islamic government didn't have any responsibilities to protect them.

These days,in most of the Islamic countries in the world,non muslims are now only paying regular taxes and they do not need to pay Jaziyah anymore.

So seriously just shut up and do not comment about something which you only know a little of it and just according to your own opinions.

[TheKingIam]

So seriously just shut up and do not comment about something which you only know a little of it and just according to your own opinions.

I know more about your own religion than you do

[Left Now]

I know more about your own religion than you do

Ha ha,really funny!Because that's something impossible while I am a theology and history student myself meanwhile I'm studying in experimental science field in high school!Do not try to trick me then you great man!

[TheKingIam]

I am a theology student myself!!

idgaf

[Stronk Serb]

I hate when people do this, your talking about the past right now
right here, right now in the world I live in, Islam is the problem

No matter when a crime is commited, it is equally wrong. Neo-Ustashi and neo-Chetnik genocides happened in the nineties. That Scandinavian guy killed those kids a few years ago. The Ustashi and Chetnik genocides happened during World War Two. What about those psycopaths who kill children because God told them to? If you put Islam as a problematic religion, you must put Chtistianity too. Extremists did some seriously messed up shit in the name of their respective religions.

[TheKingIam]

No matter when a crime is commited, it is equally wrong.

No... the past is past
Don't tell me "oh muslims are fine, christians did worst 500 years ago", don't it's a cope out argument

[Living For Love]

So what your saying is that we should give up that right out of fear?!
Absolutely not!:metal::metal::metal::metal::metal:

You have the right to disagree, protest, criticise, argue, debate and express you point of views, but you don't have the right to insult or disrespect. If you want to insult and disrespect, fine, but then, deal with the consequences.

[TheKingIam]

You have the right to disagree, protest, criticise, argue, debate and express you point of views, but you don't have the right to insult or disrespect. If you want to insult and disrespect, fine, but then, deal with the consequences.

oh and by consequences you mean... beaten up or beheaded because I express my rights of freedom of speech?
I can say fuck Allah and Mohammed the pedophile because these are fictional characters that simply don't exist!

[Living For Love]

oh and by consequences you mean... beaten up or beheaded because I express my rights of freedom of speech?
I can say fuck Allah and Mohammed the pedophile because these are fictional characters that simply don't exist!

They don't exist, in your opinion, and I also think they don't exist as well, but there are people that do believe in them, and their opinions need to be respected. But hey, I'm not saying that it is a good thing to kill people or behead them just because they disagree with us about religion or because they insult us, that's a bit extreme, and that's not something God would approve.

Can I just ask you this: have you ever been physically or psychologically abused because you expressed your point of views about this to a Muslim who didn't agree with you?

[TheKingIam]

They don't exist, in your opinion,

They don't exist.

and I also think they don't exist as well,

Ok

but there are people that do believe in them,

Idc

and their opinions need to be respected.

No they haven't earned that right

But hey, I'm not saying that it is a good thing to kill people or behead them

I f*cking hope not

just because they disagree with us about religion or because they insult us, that's a bit extreme, and that's not something God would approve.

God doesn't exist

Can I just ask you this: have you ever been physically or psychologically abused because you expressed your point of views about this to a Muslim who didn't agree with you?

In Morocco a man asked where we came from, and my dad said Denmark and the man told us straight up " Denmark is the enemy of Islam "

[Living For Love]

In Morocco a man asked where we came from, and my dad said Denmark and the man told us straight up " Denmark is the enemy of Islam "

Oh, I see now where your hatred of Muslims come from. But just like that man generalised things wrongly, you are also generalising things because not all Muslims are equal. And you have no proof that their god doesn't exist, just like any other gods don't exist.

But I have to agree with you on one thing, though: you said they haven't earned the right to be respected, and I guess that's true, at least in some aspects, because I don't have to tolerate someone who doesn't tolerate me. And when some Muslims defend that there has to be bloodshed in order to "cleanse" the world from the "enemies of Islam", I guess they're not being tolerant towards me, so...

[TheKingIam]

Oh, I see now where your hatred of Muslims come from.

I don't hate them... and that's not why...

But just like that man generalised things wrongly, you are also generalising things because not all Muslims are equal.

Islam is the same

And you have no proof that their god doesn't exist, just like any other gods don't exist.

The qran has been disproven so Allah has been disproven

But I have to agree with you on one thing, though: you said they haven't earned the right to be respected, and I guess that's true, at least in some aspects, because I don't have to tolerate someone who doesn't tolerate me.

+1

And when some Muslims defend that there has to be bloodshed in order to "cleanse" the world from the "enemies of Islam", I guess they're not being tolerant towards me, so...

And most are like that... just look at Tower Hamlets...

[Living For Love]

I don't hate them... and that's not why...
And most are like that... just look at Tower Hamlets...

So, you hate them because they're "violent" and intolerant? Fair enough then, it doesn't affect me anyway, and it shouldn't affect them as well.

And what's with Tower Hamlets?

[TheKingIam]

So, you hate them because they're "violent" and intolerant? Fair enough then, it doesn't affect me anyway, and it shouldn't affect them as well.

And what's with Tower Hamlets?

I feel sorry for them....
and look up Tower Hamlets, and what's going on there on google news you'll see what I mean :D:D:D

[Stronk Serb]

No... the past is past
Don't tell me "oh muslims are fine, christians did worst 500 years ago", don't it's a cope out argument

Read the rest of my post before you reply.

[Emerald Dream]

I believe that you were asked yesterday to stay on-topic and it was mentioned that this thread was about Burden of Proof (not slamming or defending Islam). Since this really has no chance of going back to what it was intended to be....I am locking it.

Please remember that one of the main rules here in ROTW is to stay on-topic with the intent of the thread. :locked: