Abortion

[Gamma Male]

Please, for the love of all things good in the universe, at least TRY to stay civil and polite. Everyone has their own opinions and acting like a dick won't make them change their minds.


I'm pro-choice, because there are really only two arguments against and neither make sense.

1 Abortion is the murder of a baby. Why should it be legal to kill a child in the womb, but not after it's born?

Because, fetuses are not by any means the same as babies, and they are not living beings in their own right. They don't feel emotions. They don't think. They don't have memories. They don't have hopes or dreams or fears. They are no more sentient than a kidney or lung. Do you oppose the "murder" of organs?




2 It's not murder, but by having an abortion you're still preventing someone from being born and denying them a right to live.


Following this logic, for every second you are not out there having unprotected sec with as many people as possible or donating sperm, you are commiting murder by preventing people from being born. This argument really makes no sense. People say, well what if you had been aborted? How would that make you feel?"
I would not care if I had been aborted, because I would never have existed. There would be no "I" or 'me".

What do you think? Should abortion be legal?

[Horatio Nelson]

Yes.

"Fetuses" are very much living babies.

If they weren't alive in the womb why are they alive when they are born?

[everlong]

I'm Pro-Choice, but that's just me.

[Miserabilia]

Yes.

"Fetuses" are very much living babies.

If they weren't alive in the womb why are they alive when they are born?

Since the question was "should abortion be legal", I'm assuming you meant no? (Judging by the rest of your post).

Anyway, the fetus is made of living cells; however, it's not even close to a finished human being. It knows no thought memory or consciousnes as we know it; it is merely a collection of cells.

If abortion of an early stage fetus is murder, than masterbating is murder too. Any ejaculting kills MILIONS of living cells, doesn't it?

I'm pro choise.
:yeah:

[sqishy]

Pro-choice for me, too much life indirectly leads to too much death and not having a choice in it seems not right to me at all.

[Etcetera]

I do not think that abortion should be legal in the United States, nor anywhere else, because:

By around day 22 after conception, the baby begins to have a heartbeat. At week 6, brain waves are detectable, mouth and lips are present, and fingernails are forming. At week 7 (http://nrlc.djcweb.net/site/wp-content/uploads/fig20baby7-185x300.jpg), eyelids and toes have formed, the nose is distinct. The baby is kicking and swimming. At week 11, the baby can grasp onto things placed into its hands. At week 12, the baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb. At week 17 the baby can dream. At week 20, the baby can recognize its own mother's voice. At 20 weeks, the unborn child is capable of feeling pain. This is also the earliest at which partial-birth abortion is performed.[/URL]
Source: http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Pregnancy_week_by_week?open

Also, sometimes the abortion fails, and the baby ends up being born anyway and there are serious health complications and sometimes they die after birth because of it.

When a living, breathing baby can feel the pain of being killed inside the womb, that's freaking messed up, and it's murder.

More babies die this way than people were killed in the holocaust, and not enough people are fighting for them.

[Gamma Male]

Yes.

"Fetuses" are very much living babies.

If they weren't alive in the womb why are they alive when they are born?

But the debate isn't really about whether or not they're alive, it's about whether or not they're sentient. And they aren't. How is "killing" a fetus any different than "killing" an infected organ or limb?

[Horatio Nelson]

Since the question was "should abortion be legal", I'm assuming you meant no? (Judging by the rest of your post).

Anyway, the fetus is made of living cells; however, it's not even close to a finished human being. It knows no thought memory or consciousnes as we know it; it is merely a collection of cells.

If abortion of an early stage fetus is murder, than masterbating is murder too. Any ejaculting kills MILIONS of living cells, doesn't it?

I'm pro choise.
:yeah:

The OP asked if abortion should be illegal.

But the debate isn't really about whether or not they're alive, it's about whether or not they're sentient. And they aren't. How is "killing" a fetus any different than "killing" an infected organ or limb?

This really sickens me that you can have this kind of a perspective on it.
(Take note, I don't dislike you as a person, I just disagree with your opinion. :) )

Being able to create a living breathing person is insane. I don't know why in any situation you would resort to killing one.

Merged double post. -Cygnus David

[Southside]

Just the thought of kill a potential human being in the most innocent place( the womb) is just sickening to me. It doesn't have anything to do with me being Christian either, that's just my personal views.

I still haven't decided my position on abortion, I need to do a little more research on the topic to develop my full position so for now...Im neutral

[Vlerchan]

At 20 weeks, the unborn child is capable of feeling pain
I've never read a study supporting this claim. I've read studies supporting the claim that premature-borns feel pain but that's quite different. [1] (http://www.world-science.net/othernews/060414_babyfrm.htm)

I support abortion up until 25 weeks, when living independent of the mother becomes viable, and thereafter in the case of health risks as faced by the mother. I lean towards full term, however: bodily autonomy is a human right.

[Harry Smith]

Eh as all the anti-abortion nuts tend to forget is that by outlawing abortion all you do is take away a safe secure environment, and this means that more women will end up having backstreet abortions which are not safe-if you really are in favour of life you'd realize how hypocritical your argument is

[Horatio Nelson]

Eh as all the anti-abortion nuts tend to forget is that by outlawing abortion all you do is take away a safe secure environment, and this means that more women will end up having backstreet abortions which are not safe-if you really are in favour of life you'd realize how hypocritical your argument is

If people don't want to have children, they shouldn't be having unprotected sex, 'nuff said.

[Gamma Male]

1This really sickens me that you can have this kind of a perspective on it.
(Take note, I don't dislike you as a person, I just disagree with your opinion. :) )

2Being able to create a living breathing person is insane. I don't know why in any situation you would resort to killing one.

1 Don't worry, I'm not offended. You can think someone's opinions or stances are sickening, or wrong, or evil, or whatever without judging the person for it. As a vegan, that's how I feel about like 90% of the people I know lol.

There are a multitude of very good reasons to decide to have an abortion, but you still haven't answered my question. How is killing a nonsentient clump of cells any different than removing an organ or amputating a limb? Regardless of the body parts it may be developing, if it can't think or feel it's no different than any other body part.

[Vlerchan]

If people don't want to have children, they shouldn't be having unprotected sex, 'nuff said.
It's entirely possible for protection to fail.

[Horatio Nelson]

1 Don't worry, I'm not offended. You can think someone's opinions or stances are sickening, or wrong, or evil, or whatever without judging the person for it. As a vegan, that's how I feel about like 90% of the people I know lol.

There are a multitude of very good reasons to decide to have an abortion, but you still haven't answered my question. How is killing a nonsentient clump of cells any different than removing an organ or amputating a limb? Regardless of the body parts it may be developing, if it can't think or feel it's no different than any other body part.

How can you know that for a fact? Has it been proven by a group of "scientists" or something?

I think it is completely different than losing an organ or extremity.

[Etcetera]

If people don't want to have children, they shouldn't be having unprotected sex, 'nuff said.

Agreed.

[Gamma Male]

I do not think that abortion should be legal in the United States, nor anywhere else, because:

By around day 22 after conception, the baby begins to have a heartbeat. At week 6, brain waves are detectable, mouth and lips are present, and fingernails are forming. At week 7 (http://nrlc.djcweb.net/site/wp-content/uploads/fig20baby7-185x300.jpg), eyelids and toes have formed, the nose is distinct. The baby is kicking and swimming. At week 11, the baby can grasp onto things placed into its hands. At week 12, the baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb. At week 17 the baby can dream. At week 20, the baby can recognize its own mother's voice. At 20 weeks, the unborn child is capable of feeling pain. This is also the earliest at which partial-birth abortion is performed. (http://nrlc.djcweb.net/site/wp-content/uploads/fig17baby5mos-199x300.jpg)
Source: http://nrlc.djcweb.net/abortion/diaryofanunbornchild/

Also, sometimes the abortion fails, and the baby ends up being born anyway and there are serious health complications and sometimes they die after birth because of it.

When a baby can feel the pain of being killed inside the womb, that's freaking messed up, and it's murder.

More babies die this way than people were killed in the holocaust, and not enough people are fighting for them.

The source you cited wasn't a medical website, it was a prolife website. Hardly an unbiased source of information. And the few sources the site cited were not credible sources, but rather other prolife groups. Can you find sources to back your claims that come from peer reviewed medical journals or organazations?

[Gamma Male]

How can you know that for a fact? Has it been proven by a group of "scientists" or something?1Yes, actually.

2I think it is completely different than losing an organ or extremity.

1. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/science-doesn-t-back-fetal-pain-justification-for-20-week-abortion-bans
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/07/fetal_pain_is_a_lie_how_phony_science_took_over_the_abortion_debate/
http://jezebel.com/5572599/study-fetuses-dont-feel-pain-before-24-weeks
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19089-24week-fetuses-cannot-feel-pain.html
Sufficient?
2 Since we've astablished they can't feel pain until at the very least six months, how are they different?

[Vlerchan]

Since we've astablished they can't feel pain until at the very least six months.
Nothing of the sort has been established.

Read the early criticism I provided about such in my first post.

[Horatio Nelson]

1. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/science-doesn-t-back-fetal-pain-justification-for-20-week-abortion-bans
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/07/fetal_pain_is_a_lie_how_phony_science_took_over_the_abortion_debate/
http://jezebel.com/5572599/study-fetuses-dont-feel-pain-before-24-weeks
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19089-24week-fetuses-cannot-feel-pain.html
Sufficient?
2 Since we've astablished they can't feel pain until at the very least six months, how are they different?


"The review concluded that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester."

Keyword there is "unlikely".

"There are indeed reflex responses, but in our view, because the nerves are not wired up to the cortex, they are reflex actions without experience of pain."

How is that even possible? How can the baby react if it can't feel anything? There also has to be brain function for the baby to be reacting.

[Gamma Male]

Done.

The closest thing I found was
Week 10:
The brain is active and brain waves can be observed.


But different areas of the brain grow at different rates and stages. This doesn't specify the type of brain activity. The brain waves are probably just development/ directions for the newly developing body. It's commonly accepted in the science community that fetuses don't feel pain at 10 weeks. That's an early estimate even for prolifers. My sources are in one of my previous posts to Darth.

[Vlerchan]

How is that even possible? How can the baby react if it can't feel anything? There also has to be brain function for the baby to be reacting.
Pain is just an uncomfortable application of force. It is possible to apply force to an individual without cause of pain or discomfort.

[Gamma Male]

"The review concluded that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester."

Keyword there is "unlikely".

"There are indeed reflex responses, but in our view, because the nerves are not wired up to the cortex, they are reflex actions without experience of pain."

How is that even possible? How can the baby react if it can't feel anything? There also has to be brain function for the baby to be reacting.

Actually, the fetus is perfectly capable of reacting without feeling. It's called muscle memory. The body can react before the sensory perception areas of the brain even get any signals. The whole point of "reflex responses" is that the body reacts and then pain/sensation signals get sent to the brain. Except this early in development, the body just reacts with sending the signals because the nerve receptoras aren't yet hooked up to the brain.

[Miserabilia]

The OP asked if abortion should be illegal.



This really sickens me that you can have this kind of a perspective on it.
(Take note, I don't dislike you as a person, I just disagree with your opinion. :) )

Being able to create a living breathing person is insane. I don't know why in any situation you would resort to killing one.

Merged double post. -Cygnus David

What do you think? Should abortion be legal?
^literal quote from OP.

reading, do it.

This really sickens me that you can have this kind of a perspective on it.

k? /:

[Horatio Nelson]

Actually, the fetus is perfectly capable of reacting without feeling. It's called muscle memory. The body can react before the sensory perception areas of the brain even get any signals. The whole point of "reflex responses" is that the body reacts and then pain/sensation signals get sent to the brain. Except this early in development, the body just reacts with sending the signals because the nerve receptoras aren't yet hooked up to the brain.

(Sorry, I don't know how to quote two people in one post.)

That makes no sense. When people have no feeling in a limb, you have no control over it. So how can a baby move it's arm in response to something if it can't feel that something?

[Miserabilia]

(Sorry, I don't know how to quote two people in one post.)

That makes no sense. When people have no feeling in a limb, you have no control over it. So how can a baby move it's arm in response to something if it can't feel that something?

Because the nerves to controll itself are there but they are not connected to a full grown brain

[Gamma Male]

(Sorry, I don't know how to quote two people in one post.)

That makes no sense. When people have no feeling in a limb, you have no control over it. So how can a baby move it's arm in response to something if it can't feel that something?

The baby isn't moving it's arm. The arm is moving itself, seperate from the brain. It does happen.
Fetal movement refers to motion of a fetus caused by its own muscle activity. Locomotor activity begins during the late embryological stage, and changes in nature throughout development. Muscles begin to move as soon as they are innervated. These first movements are not reflexive, but arise from self-generated nerve impulses originating in the spinal cord. As the nervous system matures, muscles can move in response to stimuli. [1]

Generally speaking, fetal motility can be classified as either elicited or spontaneous, and spontaneous movements may be triggered by either the spine or the brain. Whether a movement is supraspinally determined can be inferred by comparison to movements of an anencephalic fetus. [2]
The quotes from Wikipedia, but the page is pretty well cited and this is really just basic science.

[Harry Smith]

If people don't want to have children, they shouldn't be having unprotected sex, 'nuff said.

Just because you say nuff said doesn't make your argument correct, people can use protection and still get pregnant you know condoms only work 97% of the time, and you know there's also that thing called rape

[Sir Suomi]

I'm pro choice, because I personally believe that what goes on in a woman's body is her choice. However, to discourage young women from getting an abortion due to the fact they were stupid and did not use protection, I would say implementing a law that mandates that after the second abortion, that the woman in question should have her "tubes tied", thus making it impossible for her to attempt to conceive. But that's just my spin on it.

[Horatio Nelson]

The baby isn't moving it's arm. The arm is moving itself, seperate from the brain. It does happen.

The quotes from Wikipedia, but the page is pretty well cited and this is really just basic science.

I've already stated my opinions and beliefs.

I see no point in continuing this debate.

I really enjoyed it though. :)

Just because you say nuff said doesn't make your argument correct, people can use protection and still get pregnant you know condoms only work 97% of the time, and you know there's also that thing called rape

Then don't kill the baby, give it up for adoption.

You can anonymously drop off an unwanted child at certain places, see here: http://www.nationalsafehavenalliance.org/law.php

Merged Double Post -StoppingTime

[StoppingTime]

More babies die this way than people were killed in the holocaust, and not enough people are fighting for them.

I hope you just meant this as an offhand remark, because if not, it's a rather ridiculous, (unsourced), statistic to point to and proves literally nothing.

__

On the topic, I'm pro-choice. I'm personally not going to get into when a certain number of weeks is too many simply because I've never researched the topic too much, but to deny someone control over their own body when the fetus isn't "developed" enough to feel pain and whatnot (at whatever stage that may be) seems ridiculous to me

[Gamma Male]

I've already stated my opinions and beliefs.

I see no point in continuing this debate.

I really enjoyed it though. :)

Mkay then. I enjoyed it too. I'm glad we could both be mature about this.



But let it be noted that I do consider myself the winner. ;D

[Southside]

If people don't want to have children, they shouldn't be having unprotected sex, 'nuff said.

My exact thoughts on abortion.

If you know you don't want a kid or know you wont be able to support it, why are you having unprotected sex in the first place?

Though if its rape, incest, or something like that then I support abortion

[Lovelife090994]

I am against abortion. At least have the baby and look to give it to a family that can not birth a child. Children are miracles not all get. Too many people that want kids can't have them, and too many that can have kids when they have one they don't want it as if it is not a life. I see abortion as heinous as murder. To take a living chance from a being is sick to me. Rape and aborting is one thing, deciding to abort at 5 months is another.

[Typhlosion]

I put the mother's right ahead of her son's. Who am I to tell a woman to keep her burden? Will I take it? No. I believe in abortion on all cases, I find it unfair for anyone to have their lives ruined/drastically altered by having an unexpected child. I prefer a woman who has aborted to give birth later in more favorable conditions to a woman who barely give the minimum to her kin. Or a mother who would ignore and despise the child. The woman's body is at hand, and not mine. And until every single orphan has been adopted in the world, I will not accept abandonment as an alternative. The pill can fail, the condom can fail, heck even the IUDs fail! No woman should be forced to have a child. I also only consider the fetus a citizen the moment that it can live w/o the mother, e.g. 7 month abortions are abominations.

BUT, I have mixed feelings if the father wants the child or if the child has a handicap, yet not a severe one. I do not feel like going into those areas.