Creepy Religious Doctrine for kids under 5? Why is this allowed?

[Miserabilia]

Now,
don't get me wrong;
I bet there are alot of amazing and really nice people there, that are great with kids.
I bet they teach them great things and have a great time.

But that doesn't make it any less creepy.

PTnJtDZE75Q

Phrases like

"What would happen if you knew about god so early in life you never lived a day without beleiving he really loves you?"

"What if you could make sure that every child beleived that "god made me","jesus wants to be my friend forever""

"Before they are 4 years old."

"This is the first chance to make a lasing impression about a Heavenly Father."

I mean, how is this any different from brainwashing?
Are we just allowed to open any school for kids under 5 and indoctrine with anything we want?
Kids at this age are so open to everything, what they learn than will never leave their minds;
so it's basicly brainwashing?

What do you think?

[Lovelife090994]

Now,
don't get me wrong;
I bet there are alot of amazing and really nice people there, that are great with kids.
I bet they teach them great things and have a great time.

But that doesn't make it any less creepy.

PTnJtDZE75Q

Phrases like

"What would happen if you knew about god so early in life you never lived a day without beleiving he really loves you?"

"What if you could make sure that every child beleived that "god made me","jesus wants to be my friend forever""

"Before they are 4 years old."

"This is the first chance to make a lasing impression about a Heavenly Father."

I mean, how is this any different from brainwashing?
Are we just allowed to open any school for kids under 5 and indoctrine with anything we want?
Kids at this age are so open to everything, what they learn than will never leave their minds;
so it's basicly brainwashing?

What do you think?

How come people never bring this up with other religious faiths? When you grow up in a religious family it is only natural for you to be exposed to the religion. Christianity is also a family religion, you learn of God, learn about the Bible, and later if you want to leave it, leave it.

[Miserabilia]

How come people never bring this up with other religious faiths? When you grow up in a religious family it is only natural for you to be exposed to the religion. Christianity is also a family religion, you learn of God, learn about the Bible, and later if you want to leave it, leave it.

I bring this up with any religious fate.

What happens in a family, happens in a family, even though I do not like that parents teach their children their religion from early age.

But this?
This is a SCHOOL for children that can't even write properly, and they already have to learn about a religion.
They aren't old enough to know what they beleive yet,
so they are basicly being brainwashed.

How is this allowed?
Are we just allowed to open any school for children under 5 and teach them anything we want?

[ScottishCanary]

Yup, indoctrination pure and simple.

I think it is hard for me as someone brought up in a deeply religious Catholic environment for the first 8 years off my life but is now very skeptical of God to be neutral on this. I think it's inevitable that many families will want to pass on their religious beliefs to their children but I think it's important to also teach other of other faiths (so that there can be increased respect) but also of those that don't believe. Only then can children grow up to make their own choices about religion like I did.

[tovaris]

of course its brainwashing that is what religion is based upon

[Lovelife090994]

I bring this up with any religious fate.

What happens in a family, happens in a family, even though I do not like that parents teach their children their religion from early age.

But this?
This is a SCHOOL for children that can't even write properly, and they already have to learn about a religion.
They aren't old enough to know what they beleive yet,
so they are basicly being brainwashed.

How is this allowed?
Are we just allowed to open any school for children under 5 and teach them anything we want?

May I ask? Is this a private school? A Catholic school? A school of other faiths perhaps? Private religious schools have a right to teach this since students there were most likely from families that teach it as well. Plus, it wouldn't be good to teach the other, God, Allah, Buddha, and others are not real. When religion and school are involved then you either have it in a private school or not at all, as in no mention be it supportive or destructive. Indoctrination? Hardly. I think the media does that even more by having people look at Muslims as terrorists and all Christians as either victims to violence or radicals.

of course its brainwashing that is what religion is based upon

Actually, no it is not. Religion you can say is based on a way to understand the world, also a way to discern the supernatural. You can also say that religion can be used as a lifestyle i.e. Islam since it is both a faith and way of life as Buddhism and even Christianity at times are. If you want to be brainwashed then believe everything you read, join a cult, or never think for yourself.

Yup, indoctrination pure and simple.

I think it is hard for me as someone brought up in a deeply religious Catholic environment for the first 8 years off my life but is now very skeptical of God to be neutral on this. I think it's inevitable that many families will want to pass on their religious beliefs to their children but I think it's important to also teach other of other faiths (so that there can be increased respect) but also of those that don't believe. Only then can children grow up to make their own choices about religion like I did.

How do people teach what they do not know? If you are a Catholic then your household is too especially if you live alone. That said a Catholic will not know how to lead someone to another faith since they don't know that other faith. Besides, just because you grow up in a religious home does not mean you end up being religious.

[ScottishCanary]

How do people teach what they do not know? If you are a Catholic then your household is too especially if you live alone. That said a Catholic will not know how to lead someone to another faith since they don't know that other faith. Besides, just because you grow up in a religious home does not mean you end up being religious.

Well even though I was brought up as a Catholic, my parents never stopped me making my own decisions about realigion and doing my own research on the subject. So even though they never specifically taught me about other faiths or indeed religious skepticism they didn't stop me from reading up on it and thinking critically about religion. When I finally decided that I didn't actually believe most of what the Catholic Church wanted me to believe they accepted that. However my grandparents who still live in Gran Canaria would be devastated if they knew I had left religion!

[DeadEyes]

I mean, how is this any different from brainwashing?
Are we just allowed to open any school for kids under 5 and indoctrine with anything we want?
Kids at this age are so open to everything, what they learn than will never leave their minds;
so it's basicly brainwashing?

of course its brainwashing that is what religion is based upon

Most definitely.

[StoppingTime]

What do you think?

I think that you cherry pick and obsess over these sorts of issues. In every thread you post in all I see is you talking down to people and their beliefs. Now sure, this video is a bit ridiculous, but what I don't understand is why you sit here and yell "BRAINWASHING" "INDOCTRINATION" and the like, as that's not a debate. Of course this is indoctrinating children who don't know any better. What's there to debate? All this is is a circle jerk of people agreeing that this is wrong...but then don't actually offer any alternatives other than "religion is brainwashing and evil."

[yonkers7]

This seems to be from a ministry preschool, no? If it was a state school i'd say there's more of a problem...but if its correlated with a church of some sort they have the right to teach as they wish religion wise

[Lovelife090994]

Well even though I was brought up as a Catholic, my parents never stopped me making my own decisions about realigion and doing my own research on the subject. So even though they never specifically taught me about other faiths or indeed religious skepticism they didn't stop me from reading up on it and thinking critically about religion. When I finally decided that I didn't actually believe most of what the Catholic Church wanted me to believe they accepted that. However my grandparents who still live in Gran Canaria would be devastated if they knew I had left religion!

I can see that, makes sense.

[Miserabilia]

I think that you cherry pick and obsess over these sorts of issues. In every thread you post in all I see is you talking down to people and their beliefs. Now sure, this video is a bit ridiculous, but what I don't understand is why you sit here and yell "BRAINWASHING" "INDOCTRINATION" and the like, as that's not a debate. Of course this is indoctrinating children who don't know any better. What's there to debate? All this is is a circle jerk of people agreeing that this is wrong...but then don't actually offer any alternatives other than "religion is brainwashing and evil."

Well that is basicly true lol.
I honestly think it should be illegal to send your children to schools that teach them this, especially at an age wher you are so mentally vulnerable.

[Karkat]

I believe that those who teach their child disbelief in god from that young of an age are just as bad as those who teach belief in god.

I think if you go to church, taking your child with you is acceptable if you can control them for the most part, because what else are you going to do, for one thing. I think most kids are too young to understand or pick up most of what is said then anyways. As long as you give them something to do, it shouldn't be a big deal. MAKING them pay attention is ridiculous to begin with.

The difference is active environment vs passive environment. If you outright make your kid get involved in religious schools, or things like that, that's ACTIVELY influencing your child. They're being TAUGHT directly, and they don't have much of a choice in the matter. Letting them color in a coloring book while they're at church is kind of the same as letting them color in a coloring book while you watch the news or something. They might pick up a few things, but they are not being force-fed it.

And the thing about susceptible minds is that there are two main things that can hurt them.

1. Traumatization. You wouldn't let your child watch something violent or gory because it might scare them.

2. What they are actively TOLD. A kid may or may not pick up something they just hear if it's said somewhere else. However, what they are directly TOLD is what will affect them.

If they hear the word "damn", they might use it. If they say the word "damn" because they heard it, and you tell them it's a bad thing, they're more inclined to stop using it.

More complex thought-processes develop later on.

I think sheltering kids from religion until a certain age would be best, but if you're going to preach about sheltering from religion you have to also preach sheltering from antitheism- theism is no more indoctrinating than antitheism. They are both extreme sides of one view, and if you're going to think it's sick to tell children that there is a god at that young of an age, and not that it's sick to tell children that there ISN'T a god at that young of an age, you clearly have a bias against religion and aren't capable of looking at the matter subjectively.

You can't say "This decision shouldn't be made until later on!" and then say it's ok to make the decision for them so long as religion isn't involved. That's a double standard if I ever heard of one.

[Zenos]

:rolleyes: Sigh how many times am I going to say this to people.parents have the right to indoctrinate their children into what ever belief the parents has for good or ill!

But when the child gets older it's up to them to find their own path!

[Karkat]

:rolleyes: Sigh how many times am I going to say this to people.parents have the right to indoctrinate their children into what ever belief the parents has for good or ill!

But when the child gets older it's up to them to find their own path!

...So parents are allowed to teach their kids that they're awful if they want? What if they believe it?

I don't think hell should be taught to young children. It's scary, and unfair for someone that young. I think you misunderstand how the developing brain works.

Aside from that, this is kind of like saying that parents should be allowed to emotionally abuse their children for better or for worse if they believe everything they say. For one thing, you didn't specify religion, and even if you did, there's a BIGGER issue at hand...

If you can't raise your child with taking a fundamental understanding of how a child WORKS into account, you shouldn't be reproducing. End of discussion.

Finding your own path is a little hard when you're brainwashed. That's like saying "Oh yeah, my kids were physically and emotionally abused, raped, bullied, and constantly put in peril, but they grew up to be doctors and lawyers, so it's ok! Even if they're on constant medication for mental and physical issues and have attempted suicide before, they found the right path, it's ok!"

Sure, religion/antireligion aren't typically as severe. However, religion is a concrete idea and belief. Racism, self-hate, sexism, hatred, bloodlust, they're ideas, they're beliefs. You can be indoctrinated by ANYTHING.

Most of the problems in the world are a direct result of parents teaching their kids fucked up ideals that came from their parents teaching THEM as a kid, and so on.

They cycle CAN be broken, but it's rare, it's hard, and lives are ruined in the process. I hardly think that's a reasonable ideal to hold.

[xxdrakeTxx]

i totally respect people who follow the christian religion . but i believe that a child shouldnt be indoctrenated into a religion . because when the child grows up he will only see what he has been taught. which could lead to discrimination of other faiths and people their religion speaks out against but if a child as he grows decides to follow a faith rather than it shoved down his throat . the chance of him understanding others veiws rises significently .

[Karkat]

i totally respect people who follow the christian religion . but i believe that a child shouldnt be indoctrenated into a religion . because when the child grows up he will only see what he has been taught. which could lead to discrimination of other faiths and people their religion speaks out against but if a child as he grows decides to follow a faith rather than it shoved down his throat . the chance of him understanding others veiws rises significently .

Agreed. I mean, when you believe in something that's good, you want to tell your children about it. However, it has to be done the right way, at the right time, under the right circumstances.

Otherwise, things don't always turn out well.

[Miserabilia]

I believe that those who teach their child disbelief in god from that young of an age are just as bad as those who teach belief in god.

I think if you go to church, taking your child with you is acceptable if you can control them for the most part, because what else are you going to do, for one thing. I think most kids are too young to understand or pick up most of what is said then anyways. As long as you give them something to do, it shouldn't be a big deal. MAKING them pay attention is ridiculous to begin with.

The difference is active environment vs passive environment. If you outright make your kid get involved in religious schools, or things like that, that's ACTIVELY influencing your child. They're being TAUGHT directly, and they don't have much of a choice in the matter. Letting them color in a coloring book while they're at church is kind of the same as letting them color in a coloring book while you watch the news or something. They might pick up a few things, but they are not being force-fed it.

And the thing about susceptible minds is that there are two main things that can hurt them.

1. Traumatization. You wouldn't let your child watch something violent or gory because it might scare them.

2. What they are actively TOLD. A kid may or may not pick up something they just hear if it's said somewhere else. However, what they are directly TOLD is what will affect them.

If they hear the word "damn", they might use it. If they say the word "damn" because they heard it, and you tell them it's a bad thing, they're more inclined to stop using it.

More complex thought-processes develop later on.

I think sheltering kids from religion until a certain age would be best, but if you're going to preach about sheltering from religion you have to also preach sheltering from antitheism- theism is no more indoctrinating than antitheism. They are both extreme sides of one view, and if you're going to think it's sick to tell children that there is a god at that young of an age, and not that it's sick to tell children that there ISN'T a god at that young of an age, you clearly have a bias against religion and aren't capable of looking at the matter subjectively.

You can't say "This decision shouldn't be made until later on!" and then say it's ok to make the decision for them so long as religion isn't involved. That's a double standard if I ever heard of one.

I think we shouldn't teach our children our views in any way, if I ever get kids I'll try to not put any views of the world on them, just like my parents never put their views on me.

I think the disturbing thing is having an official school for it, especially for kids at an age where they are forming their basic knowledge.


:rolleyes: Sigh how many times am I going to say this to people.parents have the right to indoctrinate their children into what ever belief the parents has for good or ill!

But when the child gets older it's up to them to find their own path!

So I'd be allowed to open a school that teaches kids about some cult revolving around satan as long as nobody gets hurt?
I can teach kids under 5 that Satan is their best pall?

i totally respect people who follow the christian religion . but i believe that a child shouldnt be indoctrenated into a religion . because when the child grows up he will only see what he has been taught. which could lead to discrimination of other faiths and people their religion speaks out against but if a child as he grows decides to follow a faith rather than it shoved down his throat . the chance of him understanding others veiws rises significently .

I aggree.

[Typhlosion]

May I ask? Is this a private school? A Catholic school? A school of other faiths perhaps? Private religious schools have a right to teach this since students there were most likely from families that teach it as well. If a wrong is sought after by any party, that doesn't justify the wrong. Such schools shouldn't exist.

Plus, it wouldn't be good to teach the other, God, Allah, Buddha, and others are not real. The other religions are real. Being *indoctrinated* since young and believing in that doesn't make your religion any more accurate.

Actually, no it is not. Religion you can say is based on a way to understand the world, also a way to discern the supernatural. Truly, [the christian] religion is not based on complete brainwashing, or only those of christian heritage would be christian and conversion wouldn't exist. Religion is simply a manipulative moral guideline.

How do people teach what they do not know? If you are a Catholic then your household is too especially if you live alone. That said a Catholic will not know how to lead someone to another faith since they don't know that other faith. Don't say that catholic families happen not to know about the existence of other religions. If the family takes the kid to church, they can take the kid to other religious congregations.

Besides, just because you grow up in a religious home does not mean you end up being religious. Don't be ridiculous, it practically means that you'll end up religious. What's the fail rate, < 5%?

:rolleyes: Sigh how many times am I going to say this to people.parents have the right to indoctrinate their children into what ever belief the parents has for good or ill!
But when the child gets older it's up to them to find their own path!
Yes! Let's go through the whole developmental stage of a child teaching them any moral wrong and let them find out for themselves! Because suddenly they'll acquire a new perception of morals that'll be totally unbiased on their childhood learning! Genius!

[Gamma Male]

It's brainwashing, pure and simple. That's a fact. And although I strongly disagree with it from a moral viewpoint, I do believe that what that school is doing should be legal. Even if I think it is despicable, and detrimental to both the child and society as a whole.

[tovaris]

Actually, no it is not. Religion you can say is based on a way to understand the world, also a way to discern the supernatural. You can also say that religion can be used as a lifestyle i.e. Islam since it is both a faith and way of life as Buddhism and even Christianity at times are. If you want to be brainwashed then believe everything you read, join a cult, or never think for yourself.


Thats what most religions want, for you not to think and believe them blindly.
Cristeanety is a cult, you know that...

[Miserabilia]

If a wrong is sought after by any party, that doesn't justify the wrong. Such schools shouldn't exist.

The other religions are real. Being *indoctrinated* since young and believing in that doesn't make your religion any more accurate.

Truly, [the christian] religion is not based on complete brainwashing, or only those of christian heritage would be christian and conversion wouldn't exist. Religion is simply a manipulative moral guideline.

Don't say that catholic families happen not to know about the existence of other religions. If the family takes the kid to church, they can take the kid to other religious congregations.

Don't be ridiculous, it practically means that you'll end up religious. What's the fail rate, < 5%?


Yes! Let's go through the whole developmental stage of a child teaching them any moral wrong and let them find out for themselves! Because suddenly they'll acquire a new perception of morals that'll be totally unbiased on their childhood learning! Genius!

^this :yes:

It's brainwashing, pure and simple. That's a fact. And although I strongly disagree with it from a moral viewpoint, I do believe that what that school is doing should be legal. Even if I think it is despicable, and detrimental to both the child and society as a whole.

Yup.
Should it really be legal though?
Shouldn't there be a more general principle of what schools teach kids under 5? I understand that would be huge interference by the goverment, but isn't it nescecairy in brainwashy cases?

[Gamma Male]

^this :yes:



Yup.
Should it really be legal though?
Shouldn't there be a more general principle of what schools teach kids under 5? I understand that would be huge interference by the goverment, but isn't it nescecairy in brainwashy cases?

In an ideal society where I was king, yes. Brainwashing children would be illegal. But, sadly, this is America. And hell hath no fury like a bunch of pissed off right wing brainwashed fundamentalist christians. At least when you piss off liberals they just form drum circles and get high. But try to take away a parents right to indoctrinate his child? Those guys would go fucking crazy. They'd probably try to blow up a fed ex or some shit like that. It just wouldn't fly.

[Elvalight]

I've more or less always been taught about God and believed- there was no shocking revelation lol :p My parents were and are strong Christians so pretty much as soon as I could understand a few things, I was in church- although a great deal of it was Sunday school. I don't believe you really have to tell kids that young much about God unless they ask( they usually aren't able to comprehend most of the things taught about it that young anyways) and quite a few stories in the bible are pretty gruesome, best not told to young kids. There are of course good lessons, but that's all they are: LESSONS. I don't believe children are being brain washed or anything, as long as it's done right. The basics Christian children should learn are morals, why killing is bad, why stealing is bad, love your enemy, etc. You shouldn't say this is what you MUST believe, because Christianity is and always will be something a person has to accept THEMSELVES. Nobody has the right to make a child believe something. If that was the case, would the child really be accepting Christianity?

[Lovelife090994]

Thats what most religions want, for you not to think and believe them blindly.
Cristeanety is a cult, you know that...

That is not what the religious leaders want nor do their saints. It is Christianity by the way, it is no cult. Part of its success is how anyone can become Christian.

[Gamma Male]

That is not what the religious leaders want nor do their saints. It is Christianity by the way, it is no cult. Part of its success is how anyone can become Christian.

If Christianity isn't a cult, how come the only people who believe in it have either been taught to believe in christianity from birth, or are in someway troubled or insecure and needs something to blindly cling to and tell him everything's gonna be alright.

I mean, I just think it's funny that the only people who become christian later in life are usually really troubled or confused. You would think that if Christianity really made any sense, perfectly happy, well adjusted people would also convert just as often as the troubled and hurt ones. But, no. It's always weak individuals who desperately need something to dispel their insecuritys and blindly trust in that convert.
And in that sense, Christianity is a cult.

[Miserabilia]

I've more or less always been taught about God and believed- there was no shocking revelation lol :p My parents were and are strong Christians so pretty much as soon as I could understand a few things, I was in church- although a great deal of it was Sunday school. I don't believe you really have to tell kids that young much about God unless they ask( they usually aren't able to comprehend most of the things taught about it that young anyways) and quite a few stories in the bible are pretty gruesome, best not told to young kids. There are of course good lessons, but that's all they are: LESSONS. I don't believe children are being brain washed or anything, as long as it's done right. The basics Christian children should learn are morals, why killing is bad, why stealing is bad, love your enemy, etc. You shouldn't say this is what you MUST believe, because Christianity is and always will be something a person has to accept THEMSELVES. Nobody has the right to make a child believe something. If that was the case, would the child really be accepting Christianity?

I don't believe children are being brain washed or anything, as long as it's done right.
.
Nobody has the right to make a child believe something.
^ Isn't that like, contradictory?

[tovaris]

That is not what the religious leaders want nor do their saints. It is Christianity by the way, it is no cult. Part of its success is how anyone can become Christian.

aha and i am the great Kalif Pope Jon Al Melih II
saints seriously as a counter argument to ralety you are using tze argument of some largly unexistent people tgat have been dead for hundereds of years?
Cristianety is a split of religion of Jewism

[Stronk Serb]

That is not what the religious leaders want nor do their saints. It is Christianity by the way, it is no cult. Part of its success is how anyone can become Christian.


Like many aggressive religions, Christianity started as a littke cult that grew a lot.

[Elvalight]

.

^ Isn't that like, contradictory?

No, I'm saying MAKING a child believe something is bad, not teaching them about it.

[PinkFloyd]

of course its brainwashing that is what religion is based upon

Yeah, the whole point of religion is to spread an idea and brainwashing at an early age is the most effective. It's the truth.

[Gamma Male]

No, I'm saying MAKING a child believe something is bad, not teaching them about it.

What's the difference? If you indoctrinate young children their wholr lives, they're almost certain to believe that their whole lives. Even if you don't "MAKE" them believe it.

[Darth Vader]

Nope nothing wrong with that it's not harmful in any way and teaches kids good morals.

[Elvalight]

What's the difference? If you indoctrinate young children their wholr lives, they're almost certain to believe that their whole lives. Even if you don't "MAKE" them believe it.

Most people tell children about Santa Claus from as early as they can remember, but how many adults do you see trying to get their picture taken with him at the Mall?

[Miserabilia]

No, I'm saying MAKING a child believe something is bad, not teaching them about it.

If you teach kids under 5 that jesus and god are magical beings that created the universe and turned whater into whine, than you are making them beleive that.

Nope nothing wrong with that it's not harmful in any way and teaches kids good morals.

Parents are supposed to teach their kids morals, what they AREN'T supposed to do is send their kids to schools where completele stangers tell them about supreme beings that burn everyone that dissobeyes them

Most people tell children about Santa Claus from as early as they can remember, but how many adults do you see trying to get their picture taken with him at the Mall?

That's because at one point, parents say "Kids, santa is a lie. We made him up. There is no santa, I place presents under the door."

Christian parents say "Kids, there may be a god, but we beleive there is, he may have done these things and we beleive he did"

Even if they are not forcing their child into their beleifs, they are not drawing a conclusion like people do with santa.

[Elvalight]

If you teach kids under 5 that jesus and god are magical beings that created the universe and turned whater into whine, than you are making them beleive that.



Parents are supposed to teach their kids morals, what they AREN'T supposed to do is send their kids to schools where completele stangers tell them about supreme beings that burn everyone that dissobeyes them



That's because at one point, parents say "Kids, santa is a lie. We made him up. There is no santa, I place presents under the door."

Christian parents say "Kids, there may be a god, but we beleive there is, he may have done these things and we beleive he did"

Even if they are not forcing their child into their beleifs, they are not drawing a conclusion like people do with santa.

My parents never told me Santa wasn't real( well for one thing we didn't find it a problem) and I decided for myself what to believe. Besides, I think just about every kid is at some point going to go through rebellion, which can be in fact healthy, since they start thinking what they decide to think. I don't think they would be "brainwashed" by anything, since in life, they are definitely going to run into other beliefs one way or another.

[Miserabilia]

My parents never told me Santa wasn't real( well for one thing we didn't find it a problem) and I decided for myself what to believe. Besides, I think just about every kid is at some point going to go through rebellion, which can be in fact healthy, since they start thinking what they decide to think. I don't think they would be "brainwashed" by anything, since in life, they are definitely going to run into other beliefs one way or another.

So you are trying to tell me, that to this day, your parents still tell you that santa exists?

If you are trying to say that you found out on your own, well, that's what people do with god too; some just realize "Hey this isn't real" and they don't beleive it anymore.

People aren't religious because they choose or find out on their own in 99% of the time , it is because that it simply what they were taught and told.
Why do you think religion is spread by area?
Because it is cultural.
Religion goes from parent to child.

In most cases, children that were raised with a religion never let it go.

Brainwashing is exactly the word

[Southside]

Well..If its a private school that the PARENTS send their children to, I don't see a reason why it should be illegal.

[Elvalight]

So you are trying to tell me, that to this day, your parents still tell you that santa exists?

If you are trying to say that you found out on your own, well, that's what people do with god too; some just realize "Hey this isn't real" and they don't beleive it anymore.

People aren't religious because they choose or find out on their own in 99% of the time , it is because that it simply what they were taught and told.
Why do you think religion is spread by area?
Because it is cultural.
Religion goes from parent to child.

In most cases, children that were raised with a religion never let it go.

Brainwashing is exactly the word

Lololol I used to make fun of my sister( 2 years older than me) for believing in Santa when I was 8. My parents have also always been anti gay, but I'm a supporter. Children have brains and they will use them to decide things. Choices will arise and they will find out they have to make their own decisions. The same goes for religion.

[Miserabilia]

Lololol I used to make fun of my sister( 2 years older than me) for believing in Santa when I was 8. My parents have also always been anti gay, but I'm a supporter. Children have brains and they will use them to decide things. Choices will arise and they will find out they have to make their own decisions. The same goes for religion.

If religion was completely a choice and not something placed in the brains of children permanantly by others,
there would be two things seen;

- Non-religious people would become religiou all the time at any point of their lives
-Religious people would become non-religious all the time at any point of their lives

Now these things do happen, but what happens in 99% of the time?

- Non-religious people don't become religious
- Religious people are raised religiously and usually never let it go

This just shows it's not a choise, it's a brainwashing thing.

[Darth Vader]

If religion was completely a choice and not something placed in the brains of children permanantly by others,
there would be two things seen;

- Non-religious people would become religiou all the time at any point of their lives
-Religious people would become non-religious all the time at any point of their lives

Now these things do happen, but what happens in 99% of the time?

- Non-religious people don't become religious
- Religious people are raised religiously and usually never let it go

This just shows it's not a choise, it's a brainwashing thing.

No it's not everyone is free to follow there own religion and we should leave them alone.

[Elvalight]

No it's not everyone is free to follow there own religion and we should leave them alone.

I second this

[Lovelife090994]

I second this

I third the notion as well. Let people believe as they wish. Why have a problem with the beliefs of others when they do not affect you?

[ksdnfkfr]

No it's not everyone is free to follow there own religion and we should leave them alone.

I agree with that. Do some people try to convince you to believe their religion? Sure. But I know a truther who wants to convince me of government conspiracies like chem trails etc. There will always be people believing in something and want everyone else to believe it too. It's not limited to religion. As long as people are respectful of one another, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Miserabilia]

No it's not everyone is free to follow there own religion and we should leave them alone.

I second this

I third the notion as well. Let people believe as they wish. Why have a problem with the beliefs of others when they do not affect you?

I agree with that. Do some people try to convince you to believe their religion? Sure. But I know a truther who wants to convince me of government conspiracies like chem trails etc. There will always be people believing in something and want everyone else to believe it too. It's not limited to religion. As long as people are respectful of one another, it shouldn't be a problem.

I don't think any of you took the time to actually read and understand what I said;
people CAN choose their religion, but statistics show they DON'T;

religion is mostly decided by what your pARENTS taught you at a young age. People that were taught religiously don't let that religion go in most of the cases,
and people usualy don't turn religious when they have never been it.

These things CAN happen, but they don't ;
the facts show you that people that were religiously indoctrinated at young age will mostly stay religious.

Religion is more a cultural thing than a choise; if it were a choise, it wouldn't be spread exactly by area and cultural area.
That's all I am saying.

[Harry Smith]

I Why have a problem with the beliefs of others when they do not affect you?

Because said groups frequently campaign, fund and support idiots like this...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Rick_Santorum_official_photo.jpg

If Religion took a completely libertarian view then I'd happily let them drink their wine and eat there bread along with there other rituals. That fact is that the majority of Christian and Islamic groups in Britain oppose Abortion, Gay Marriage, Gay Adaption, the morning after pill, Evolution and common sense. So yes the beliefs of religious groups greatly affect me

[Darth Vader]

Like many aggressive religions, Christianity started as a littke cult that grew a lot.

That's funny calling it a cult when you have a Soviet Union flag for your avatar.

In an ideal society where I was king, yes. Brainwashing children would be illegal. But, sadly, this is America. And hell hath no fury like a bunch of pissed off right wing brainwashed fundamentalist christians. At least when you piss off liberals they just form drum circles and get high. But try to take away a parents right to indoctrinate his child? Those guys would go fucking crazy. They'd probably try to blow up a fed ex or some shit like that. It just wouldn't fly.

I love how you say king as if that would be an ideal society there has never been a good king in history what would mske you different from the rest ?


Merged Double Post. ~StoppingTime

[Vlerchan]

That's funny calling it a cult when you have a Soviet Union flag for your avatar.

[1]: It's not a Soviet flag.

[2]: He's correct in calling Christianity an advanced cult.

[3]: There was nothing cult-like about the USSR. Marxism is another question, though.

I love how you say king as if that would be an ideal society there has never been a good king in history what would mske you different from the rest ?
This is untrue.

I can start listing exceptions if you want.

[Darth Vader]

I don't think any of you took the time to actually read and understand what I said;
people CAN choose their religion, but statistics show they DON'T;

religion is mostly decided by what your pARENTS taught you at a young age. People that were taught religiously don't let that religion go in most of the cases,
and people usualy don't turn religious when they have never been it.

These things CAN happen, but they don't ;
the facts show you that people that were religiously indoctrinated at young age will mostly stay religious.

Religion is more a cultural thing than a choise; if it were a choise, it wouldn't be spread exactly by area and cultural area.
That's all I am saying.

But it is a choice people aren't putting a gun to your head saying you have to be Christian we are taught this.

By your logic the teachers teaching math are indoctrinating us with numbers.You hsve to do math at an early age whether you like it or not but later on you can always drop it.

Same with religion you can stop believing if you want but many don't because of the same reason they don't drop math it's not an easy path but the positives outweigh the negatives.

Perhaps you should focus on the positives of religion and not just the negatives.
Don't get me wrong I respect your beliefs and point of view but there are other more pressing issues you can be vocal about.

[1]: It's not a Soviet flag.

[2]: He's correct in calling Christianity an advanced cult.

[3]: There was nothing cult-like about the USSR. Marxism is another question, though.


This is untrue.

I can start listing exceptions if you want.

Sure please list exceptions and yes there are cult like things about it such as KGB brainwashing techniques. Such as sleeper agents.




Merged Double Post. ~StoppingTime

[Vlerchan]

Sure please list exceptions[1] and yes there are cult like things about it[2] such as KGB brainwashing techniques[3]. Such as sleeper agents[4].

[1]:

Augustus of Rome: ended the civil-unrest that plagued Rome at the time of his ascension and brought about the Pax Romana - or Roman Peace.

Meiji of Japan: brought Japan from being a backwards and isolated agrarian-shithole to industrial-powerhouse and world-superpower during the course of his reign.

Cyrus the Great: expanded his empire to encompass much of the Middle-East; expanded human-rights and autonomy of his subjects; facilitated and encouraged the advancement of military strategy and philosophy.

John III of Poland: political and military genius; is a large part of the reason that I'm not a) Muslim and b) speaking Turkish right now.

[2]: If X holds Y-like aspects that does not necessarily make it Y.

[3]: Please provide verifiable evidence in support of this claim. Thanks.

[4]:

The use of sleeper agents has nothing to do with brainwashing. I also don't see how it's cult-like either.

The closest you're going to get to proving that the USSR brainwashed its subjects is through referencing towards its use of propoganda. But by that definition every single political-party that ever existed is out to brainwash you.

[Darth Vader]

[1]:

Augustus of Rome: ended the civil-unrest that plagued Rome at the time of his ascension and brought about the Pax Romana - or Roman Peace.

Meiji of Japan: brought Japan from being a backwards and isolated agrarian-shithole to industrial-powerhouse and world-superpower during the course of his reign.

Cyrus the Great: expanded his empire to encompass much of the Middle-East; expanded human-rights and autonomy of his subjects; facilitated and encouraged the advancement of military strategy and philosophy.

John III of Poland: political and military genius; is a large part of the reason that I'm not a) Muslim and b) speaking Turkish right now.

[2]: If X holds Y-like aspects that does not necessarily make it Y.

[3]: Please provide verifiable evidence in support of this claim. Thanks.

[4]:

The use of sleeper agents has nothing to do with brainwashing. I also don't see how it's cult-like either.

The closest you're going to get to proving that the USSR brainwashed its subjects is through referencing towards its use of propoganda. But by that definition every single political-party that ever existed is out to brainwash you.

Augustus was considered a tyrant by many the kings you have listed are very subjective absolute power corrupts absolutely that is why the French Revolution happened.

Don't tell me the USSR ent use brainwashing a quick google search will reveal thousands of articles about the extent they used it.

[Vlerchan]

Augustus was considered a tyrant[1] by many the kings you have listed are very subjective[2] absolute power corrupts absolutely that is why the French Revolution happened.
[1]: Relative to today he was. Relative to the time of his rule he was a much greater alternative to what was on offer elsewhere. It's also undeniable that his rule greatly benefited his state and nation - and so he was a 'good' ruler in that sense.

[2]: The individuals who I listed are by-and-large seen as examples of 'good' monarchs. You claiming that it's 'very' subjective in your eyes does not make professional opinion any less split.

Don't tell me the USSR ent use brainwashing a quick google search will reveal thousands of articles about the extent they used it[3].
[3]: And I'm saying that I want you to provide these articles.

[Darth Vader]

[QUOTE=Vlerchan;2737764][1]: Relative to today he was. Relative to the time of his rule he was a much greater alternative to what was on offer elsewhere. It's also undeniable that his rule greatly benefited his state and nation - and so he was a 'good' ruler in that sense.

[2]: The individuals who I listed are by-and-large seen as examples of 'good' monarchs. You claiming that it's 'very' subjective in your eyes does not make professional opinion any less split.


[3]: And I'm saying that I want you to provide these articles.[/b]

Here's one https://www.iop.org/news/13/jan/page_59428.html if you want just google it there's no shortage of sources.

[Vlerchan]

Here's one https://www.iop.org/news/13/jan/page_59428.html if you want just google it there's no shortage of sources.

Let's actually read the source, shall we:

Doubt cast on Sir Bernard Lovell's brainwashing.

Speaking to Lovell’s son Bryan, Corfield reveals a more mundane explanation for why Lovell, who founded the Jodrell Bank telescope in the UK, fell ill on his return from the USSR in 1963.

“For me the more likely explanation is that father was simply exhausted – and that gels with the account that he wrote in the contemporaneous diary of the 1963 trip, in which you will find nothing untoward, but plenty of fascinating science,” reveals Bryan Lovell, who is the current president of the Geological Society of London.

The alleged brainwashing incident occurred during Lovell’s visit to the USSR in 1963 when he was taken on an unexpected tour of the Soviets' new radio-telescope and space-tracking facility in the Crimea, which he was deeply impressed by. On his return to Moscow, Lovell was quizzed on his plans to build a larger telescope at Jodrell Bank, which at the time was the only telescope facility capable of tracking Soviet nuclear-tipped rockets. The Soviets made it clear that if Lovell remained in the USSR and built the facility there, they would give him the money.

Lovell declined the offer and returned to the UK, but immediately fell ill and found that his life had "suddenly turned to dust and ashes", as he wrote in a 2008 memorandum. In the months after his recovery, Lovell was told by the Ministry of Defence that the illness might have been caused by a Soviet attempt to remove his memory of the recruitment offer and what he had seen during his visit.

Despite the incident, Lovell was a fervent believer in the collaborative nature of science – a conviction that was confirmed in the diaries he wrote during the Cold War period, which were released by the University of Manchester after his death in August last year.

Indeed, the British scientific collaboration with the Soviet Union also extended to the field of fusion science, which in 1969 led to a group of leading researchers from the UK Atomic Energy Authority sharing their expertise in measuring plasma temperatures with a Soviet group working on the latest nuclear-fusion technologies.

The fusion collaboration forged in the 1960s ultimately paved the way to the creation of the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) – a practical attempt to prove that ideas from plasma physics can be translated into full-scale electricity-producing fusion power plants. The first plasma is expected to be produced by ITER in 2020, with the first real working fusion power plants coming – if all goes well – some 20–30 years after that.

“When – and if – that happens, historians will be able to trace that success back to those early collaborations between Britain and the Soviet Union, and, in part, to the legacy of Sir Bernard Lovell’s radio telescope that was used as the earliest of early-warning systems,” Corfield writes.

The above not only doesn't validate your claim but actually moves against it.

[Darth Vader]

Haha that's pretty funny out of all the sources I could hsve picked i picked the one that works against me ps were getting a bit off topic here.

[Stronk Serb]

That's funny calling it a cult when you have a Soviet Union flag for your avatar.

It's the symbol of socialism, not the Soviet Union. There is no cult thing in the Soviet Union. By your logic, you are in the cult of Darth Vader.

[ksdnfkfr]

I don't think any of you took the time to actually read and understand what I said;
people CAN choose their religion, but statistics show they DON'T;

religion is mostly decided by what your pARENTS taught you at a young age. People that were taught religiously don't let that religion go in most of the cases,
and people usualy don't turn religious when they have never been it.

These things CAN happen, but they don't ;
the facts show you that people that were religiously indoctrinated at young age will mostly stay religious.

Religion is more a cultural thing than a choise; if it were a choise, it wouldn't be spread exactly by area and cultural area.
That's all I am saying.

Crap, I hate it when people expect you to read what they are saying :P
Guess I was focusing on who I was replying to who was kinda off topic. Anyways I agree with that. It seems obvious. If you grow up in a catholic family all a person is going to know is Catholicism and maybe even become a priest. But take that same person as a small child and send him over to Saudi Arabia to be raised, he's going to be a Muslim when he grows up.

[Ethe14]

Since you guys were talking about those who are religious stay religious is not always the case. One thing that happens is that when your a kid you are religious because your parents are. Then your an adult and you sort of drop off. Then you have kids and you become religious and teach your kids. I think it's more of a cycle.

[Miserabilia]

Crap, I hate it when people expect you to read what they are saying :P
Guess I was focusing on who I was replying to who was kinda off topic. Anyways I agree with that. It seems obvious. If you grow up in a catholic family all a person is going to know is Catholicism and maybe even become a priest. But take that same person as a small child and send him over to Saudi Arabia to be raised, he's going to be a Muslim when he grows up.

lol ;)

Yup.

Since you guys were talking about those who are religious stay religious is not always the case. One thing that happens is that when your a kid you are religious because your parents are. Then your an adult and you sort of drop off. Then you have kids and you become religious and teach your kids. I think it's more of a cycle.

The point is that in the end, being raised religiously will in most cases cause you to stay that way,
which is why am against a religious school for kids under 5

[StoppingTime]

aha and i am the great Kalif Pope Jon Al Melih II
saints seriously as a counter argument to ralety you are using tze argument of some largly unexistent people tgat have been dead for hundereds of years?
Cristianety is a split of religion of Jewism

*Judaism. And Christianity started like that, but in its current state, it is certainly not considered a "split religion" of anything.

Parents are supposed to teach their kids morals, what they AREN'T supposed to do is send their kids to schools where completele stangers tell them about supreme beings that burn everyone that disobeys them

There's your issue: "supposed." There is no "supposed;" you're in no position to tell parents what they're "supposed" to do, and you shouldn't be.


Even if they are not forcing their child into their beleifs, they are not drawing a conclusion like people do with santa.

Kids really aren't idiots. I think you underestimate the ability of children to question things; just because they don't always share their questioning doesn't mean they aren't questioning things.

Why do you think religion is spread by area?


What do you mean exactly? Historically, major world religions were spread because missionaries, mystics, saints, etc. It might be concentrated because it was a belief that was passed down, but that's not why it "spread by area"


Now these things do happen, but what happens in 99% of the time?
- Non-religious people don't become religious
- Religious people are raised religiously and usually never let it go

The above is literally meaningless. You've provided less than nothing to back up what you said, and instead prefer to debate with generalities.

[Capto]

Non-religious people become religious, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, a lot.

And religious people lose faith in religion a lot.

There's no real one size fits all mold for this.

[Lovelife090994]

Because said groups frequently campaign, fund and support idiots like this...

image (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Rick_Santorum_official_photo.jpg)

If Religion took a completely libertarian view then I'd happily let them drink their wine and eat there bread along with there other rituals. That fact is that the majority of Christian and Islamic groups in Britain oppose Abortion, Gay Marriage, Gay Adaption, the morning after pill, Evolution and common sense. So yes the beliefs of religious groups greatly affect me

I pray you see the truth before it is too late. You generalize. Not all Christians are Catholic, not all Catholics partake in communion, and not all Christians and Muslims are conservative. If a person is against abortion, gay marriage, and even evolution but they do not force beliefs then let them believe. You cannot write off the billions of Christians and Muslims in the world. You do not sound loving and open at all. I am a Christian who would love to talk to you in person, but if you insult me for ebing religious then good bye since not all religious people are the same. Common sense can be on anyone regardless of beliefs, my beliefs are how homosexuality is one of the thousands of sins, but I also know we are all God's children, and how we should be loving and open. No one should be forced to change beliefs, no one should be forced to agree with you. Newsflash is this, you aren't the only one in the world with problems. Breathe, think, abandom political correctness, and stand by your beliefs but not by writing off others.

[Capto]

I'm one of several thousand modern, liberal Muslims in this world. I take heavy offense to any arbitrary stereotype portrayed against us.

[Miserabilia]

Non-religious people become religious, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, a lot.

And religious people lose faith in religion a lot.

There's no real one size fits all mold for this.

It happens, but the numbers are low.
If you are religious, the chance is much MUCH higher that you will stay it than that you will become atheist, and the other way around.

[Harry Smith]

If a person is against abortion, gay marriage, and even evolution but they do not force beliefs then let them believe. You cannot write off the billions of Christians and Muslims in the world.

I'll put this in very brief leymans terms invoking Godwin.

Just because there are SOME nice Christians who are liberal doesn't make Christendom fine-just like how some nice concentration guards don't make the Nazis fine. I know there's a big difference between christians and Nazis-I'm just saying that one good apple doesn't make the whole bowl nice

They don't force there beliefs? So the massive bill boards, attack ads, hate speeches and protests against the gay community for the last 50 years was what then? There leaders stood up in our parliament and denounced abortion and homosexuality, and voted against it. The idea that the majority of Christians sit back is wrong-they aggressively campaign against Equality

Two million people may think the same idea-doesn't make it right. See religion

I pray you see the truth before it is too late.

That's very ironic, see my point about evolution something that has been proven to be correct. God's not worth being called god if he put a hipbone in an animal that swims

[Lovelife090994]

I'll put this in very brief leymans terms invoking Godwin.

Just because there are SOME nice Christians who are liberal doesn't make Christendom fine-just like how some nice concentration guards don't make the Nazis fine. I know there's a big difference between christians and Nazis-I'm just saying that one good apple doesn't make the whole bowl nice

They don't force there beliefs? So the massive bill boards, attack ads, hate speeches and protests against the gay community for the last 50 years was what then? There leaders stood up in our parliament and denounced abortion and homosexuality, and voted against it. The idea that the majority of Christians sit back is wrong-they aggressively campaign against Equality

Two million people may think the same idea-doesn't make it right. See religion


That's very ironic, see my point about evolution something that has been proven to be correct. God's not worth being called god if he put a hipbone in an animal that swims

My, my, why so clouded? You must know how most Christians and Muslims do tend to sit back and not get involved in politics. Sadly, many Christians with power are corrupt and so blind that they are no longer Christian. Christiandom is varied, but is no more evil than anything else. Christianity has changed since much of the Bible was in relation to the early tribal cultures of Judea at the time and in reference to the Old Testament which the Jews do follow. Now when I said I pray you see the light and truth, I pray you see how not all who are religious have a bone with you to pick.

[Capto]

It happens, but the numbers are low.
If you are religious, the chance is much MUCH higher that you will stay it than that you will become atheist, and the other way around.

Generally false.

[Miserabilia]

Generally false.

How?
Religion is perfectly spread by culture.
Religion is spread by area and family.
Religious families bring religious kids.
You can take a map of the world, and draw perfect lines around religious areas.
You can look at families, and see religous families, and atheist families, and agnostic famlies, how is it false?
Do you even try to argue this?

[Vlerchan]

[X]
Just an idea, but if you were to actually present verifiable evidence - beyond your own opinion - supporting your claims then others might be more inclined to accept them.

[Miserabilia]

Just an idea, but if you were to actually present verifiable evidence - beyond your own opinion - supporting your claims then others might be more inclined to accept them.

http://www.rayfowler.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/map_world_religions.gif

[Lovelife090994]

image (http://www.rayfowler.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/map_world_religions.gif)

Intteresting map, nott perfect, but interesting. All this shows is how Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism have spread far and wide. Also this proves how religious the world is.

[Vlerchan]

image (http://www.rayfowler.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/map_world_religions.gif)
This does not support your claim that "If you are religious, the chance is much MUCH higher that you will stay it than that you will become atheist, and the other way around."

Try again.

[Harry Smith]

My, my, why so clouded? You must know how most Christians and Muslims do tend to sit back and not get involved in politics. Sadly, many Christians with power are corrupt and so blind that they are no longer Christian. It Christiandom is varied, but is no more evil than anything else. Christianity has changed since much of the Bible was in relation to the early tribal cultures of Judea at the time and in reference to the Old Testament which the Jews do follow. Now when I said I pray you see the light and truth, I pray you see how not all who are religious have a bone with you to pick.

Why god are you praying to? I mean the idea of sending telepathic messages to God just doesn't make sense does it? If there was such a powerful being such as God why would he care about something as insignificant as us? I mean you pray to your god, the Muslims pray to there, the Klingons pray to there's, the Jedi's pray to there's. You can't all be right...

I'm also talking about the evils of Christianity-it doesn't matter what the others do. It's like a rapist claiming he's innocent because the murderer is worse. This is about the evils of Christianity-you can't blame another religion you know.

Your point about Politics is also completely incorrect- See the house of Lords and the 26 members of the church who sit there despite never being voted in.

[Lovelife090994]

Why god are you praying to? I mean the idea of sending telepathic messages to God just doesn't make sense does it? If there was such a powerful being such as God why would he care about something as insignificant as us? I mean you pray to your god, the Muslims pray to there, the Klingons pray to there's, the Jedi's pray to there's. You can't all be right...

I'm also talking about the evils of Christianity-it doesn't matter what the others do. It's like a rapist claiming he's innocent because the murderer is worse. This is about the evils of Christianity-you can't blame another religion you know.

Your point about Politics is also completely incorrect- See the house of Lords and the 26 members of the church who sit there despite never being voted in.


No prayer is unheard, and we are not insignificant, God loves all his creations, so we mean something. If you only focus on Christianity's shattered past then you'll never se the good done by it either. I never blamed anyone, you did that earlier by jumping to conclusion on Muslims and Christians how we are all conservative or hateful in some form to you and your group. And I know not of the British House, enlighten me. The British Empire has had a long standing history of Christianity, Catholicism and Protestantism, so even those types of British citizens need representation. Now if these 26 figures are corrupt then that is another issue.

[Miserabilia]

This does not support your claim that "If you are religious, the chance is much MUCH higher that you will stay it than that you will become atheist, and the other way around."

Try again.

the claim you quoted of me was
"Religion is perfectly spread by culture.
Religion is spread by area and family.
Religious families bring religious kids.
You can take a map of the world, and draw perfect lines around religious areas."

If you want me to bring evidence for something else I said, quote that.
I assume this is what you mean?

Table 29 of the study presents the percent of people raised in a
particular religion who reported currently being members of that same
faith:

Table 29

A. Major Religions

Protestant 90.4%
Catholic 82.3
Jewish 86.6
Other 70.5
None 45.4


B. Major Protestant Denominations

Southern Baptist 71.8
United Methodist 63.0
Lutheran 80.0
Presbyterian 56.7
Episcopalian 71.6
Interdenominational 47.1
Disciples of Christ 63.9
Mormon 90.8
Fundamentalist 73.7
Moderate 57.0
Liberal 46.4


C. Fundamentalism/Liberalism

Fundamentalist 80.3
Moderate 81.9
Liberal 71.6

source:
"Counting Flocks and Lost Sheep:"
http://www.icpsr.umich.edu:8080/GSS/rnd1998/reports/s-reports/soc26.htm

[Harry Smith]

No prayer is unheard, and we are not insignificant, God loves all his creations, so we mean something. If you only focus on Christianity's shattered past then you'll never se the good done by it either. I never blamed anyone, you did that earlier by jumping to conclusion on Muslims and Christians how we are all conservative or hateful in some form to you and your group. And I know not of the British House, enlighten me. The British Empire has had a long standing history of Christianity, Catholicism and Protestantism, so even those types of British citizens need representation. Now if these 26 figures are corrupt then that is another issue.

But how can god hear the prayer? I mean there's absolutely no logic behind it, there's not even any proof that your god is real. I mean it's just as likely that there's a good of tits and wine who listens to the prayers of the drunk man in a strip club. It's all so subjective-just because you say a deity hears your pray doesn't make it real.

I'll focused on the shattered present thanks- I mean both the Protestant and Catholic branch haven't got much going for them here. They're anti-gay, anti-women and anti-equality.

They have representation when they vote for their MPs, nobody voted for theese 26 lords to sit in our parliament. Literally they didn't voted in-they're only there because they happen to think a certain god is real. I don't see anyone representing the Jedi's in our parliament-there claim is just as credible

[Body odah Man]

Indoctrination is an accepted thing sadly.

[Vlerchan]

the claim you quoted of me was
"Religion is perfectly spread by culture.
Religion is spread by area and family.
Religious families bring religious kids.
You can take a map of the world, and draw perfect lines around religious areas."[1]

If you want me to bring evidence for something else I said, quote that.
I assume this is what you mean?[2]

[1] No. It wasn't. Read the post I made - I didn't quote any claim in particular. It was a general remark focused - and I'm sorry if I didn't make this clear - on Capto's rejection of your earlier claim: if you want him to accept your claim then back it up with evidence as opposed to more claims, (of which also didn't really go far in proving your point.)

[2]: This source: a) doesn't specify that people who left their respective religions became Atheists - as per your claim, and b) it seems that those raised in 'None' religion have the highest rate of conversion, so.

[Stronk Serb]

No prayer is unheard, and we are not insignificant, God loves all his creations, so we mean something. If you only focus on Christianity's shattered past then you'll never se the good done by it either. I never blamed anyone, you did that earlier by jumping to conclusion on Muslims and Christians how we are all conservative or hateful in some form to you and your group. And I know not of the British House, enlighten me. The British Empire has had a long standing history of Christianity, Catholicism and Protestantism, so even those types of British citizens need representation. Now if these 26 figures are corrupt then that is another issue.

The 26 Lord Spirituals vote against: gender equality, marriage equality, against abortions and contraception. They are there just because they are Christian. The Parliament should be reformed and no religion should have power in it.

[Lovelife090994]

The 26 Lord Spirituals vote against: gender equality, marriage equality, against abortions and contraception. They are there just because they are Christian. The Parliament should be reformed and no religion should have power in it.

Religious people are taxpaying citizens as well.
Clearly those men are traditional, those are Christian and Jewish practices to be against those things. Marriage even before Christiandom has been between a man and a woman, abortion and contraception are seen as disgusting, any gender issues are carried over ideas from thousands of years back to the desert Israeli people and of course also in the Old Testament.

But how can god hear the prayer? I mean there's absolutely no logic behind it, there's not even any proof that your god is real. I mean it's just as likely that there's a good of tits and wine who listens to the prayers of the drunk man in a strip club. It's all so subjective-just because you say a deity hears your pray doesn't make it real.

I'll focused on the shattered present thanks- I mean both the Protestant and Catholic branch haven't got much going for them here. They're anti-gay, anti-women and anti-equality.

They have representation when they vote for their MPs, nobody voted for theese 26 lords to sit in our parliament. Literally they didn't voted in-they're only there because they happen to think a certain god is real. I don't see anyone representing the Jedi's in our parliament-there claim is just as credible

No offe se, but why do you talk so lowly of the religious like we are subhuman and not intellectual or can ever be? Prayer is something only those who prayer tend to understand. It is not about who is right or wrong with faith. Not everyone is going to be for gay marriage and abortion, I am not for either, but I feel we should be banding together rather than dividing ourselves because of what we believe in. Not every Christian is the same. The way you talk about Christians as a whole is gross, and it is sad how people think they can degrade a Christian so. Not all works done in Christianity have been good, but not all are bad either. If you hate all religion, fine, but quit dehumanizing those who disgaree with you. Abandom this political correctness and think for yourself. I am a Christian but I've both a brain and a heart. I follow my wit and mind and look to my faith whilst staying above hate and darkness. I do not see why so many who are gay who want equality are so hellbent against one group, the Christians. Christians are being met with Hell everyday and our faith has been blamed for much and yet no cares, people rather see the shattered versions and write off all of Christiandom.

[Miserabilia]

Religious people are taxpaying citizens as well.
Clearly those men are traditional, those are Christian and Jewish practices to be against those things. Marriage even before Christiandom has been between a man and a woman, abortion and contraception are seen as disgusting, any gender issues are carried over ideas from thousands of years back to the desert Israeli people and of course also in the Old Testament.



No offe se, but why do you talk so lowly of the religious like we are subhuman and not intellectual or can ever be? Prayer is something only those who prayer tend to understand. It is not about who is right or wrong with faith. Not everyone is going to be for gay marriage and abortion, I am not for either, but I feel we should be banding together rather than dividing ourselves because of what we believe in. Not every Christian is the same. The way you talk about Christians as a whole is gross, and it is sad how people think they can degrade a Christian so. Not all works done in Christianity have been good, but not all are bad either. If you hate all religion, fine, but quit dehumanizing those who disgaree with you. Abandom this political correctness and think for yourself. I am a Christian but I've both a brain and a heart. I follow my wit and mind and look to my faith whilst staying above hate and darkness. I do not see why so many who are gay who want equality are so hellbent against one group, the Christians. Christians are being met with Hell everyday and our faith has been blamed for much and yet no cares, people rather see the shattered versions and write off all of Christiandom.

How do you expect people to work together with christians if they are against equality?
Why do you as christian expect to be treated equal as others, but not others?

[Lovelife090994]

How do you expect people to work together with christians if they are against equality?
Why do you as christian expect to be treated equal as others, but not others?

There are more issues than gay marriage, brother, you know that even at your age I'm sure. Plus, "to be treated equal as others, but not others," makes little sense. As a Christian I must impress how there are things we are not all going to agree on, especially faith. As a person I must impress how I think we should be treated equally which includes avoiding deriding of someone who disagrees with you. True, many views will have some look askance, but don't talk down someone for not thinking as you do. So many phony pastors, representatives, and groups have tarnished Christianity's name so that people think it's fine to talk down a Christian and to speak ill of Christianity. But I digress, even the Bible speaks of this, only more confirmation of things to come.

[Stronk Serb]

Religious people are taxpaying citizens as well.
Clearly those men are traditional, those are Christian and Jewish practices to be against those things. Marriage even before Christiandom has been between a man and a woman, abortion and contraception are seen as disgusting, any gender issues are carried over ideas from thousands of years back to the desert Israeli people and of course also in the Old Testament.

The Anglican Church and it's clergy are exempt of all taxes, correct me if I'm wrong. In Rome and Ancient Greece people were openly homosexual. The mighty Spartans had homosexual and bisexual relationships. In Athens, men had homosexual relationships which were equal to heterosexual marriages. Just because a storybook says it's wrong, it doesn't mean it is. Why follow obviously outdated ideas from the Ancient Age? Humanity must go forward, not cling to the past. Look at Hitler and Mussolini. They clinged to the outdated ideas of a German Empire and a new Roman Empire. Look how it ended.

[Miserabilia]

There are more issues than gay marriage, brother, you know that even at your age I'm sure. Plus, "to be treated equal as others, but not others," makes little sense. As a Christian I must impress how there are things we are not all going to agree on, especially faith. As a person I must impress how I think we should be treated equally which includes avoiding deriding of someone who disagrees with you. True, many views will have some look askance, but don't talk down someone for not thinking as you do. So many phony pastors, representatives, and groups have tarnished Christianity's name so that people think it's fine to talk down a Christian and to speak ill of Christianity. But I digress, even the Bible speaks of this, only more confirmation of things to come.

Sorry for my confusing sentence at the end. I'll try to explain again what I mean to make it more clear.

How can a christian excpect to be treated equally to non-christians, if they refuse to treat others equally, homosexuals for example?

[Lovelife090994]

Sorry for my confusing sentence at the end. I'll try to explain again what I mean to make it more clear.

How can a christian excpect to be treated equally to non-christians, if they refuse to treat others equally, homosexuals for example?

I never said I treat homosexuals different, in fact I said the opposite that I treat all the same.

The Anglican Church and it's clergy are exempt of all taxes, correct me if I'm wrong. In Rome and Ancient Greece people were openly homosexual. The mighty Spartans had homosexual and bisexual relationships. In Athens, men had homosexual relationships which were equal to heterosexual marriages. Just because a storybook says it's wrong, it doesn't mean it is. Why follow obviously outdated ideas from the Ancient Age? Humanity must go forward, not cling to the past. Look at Hitler and Mussolini. They clinged to the outdated ideas of a German Empire and a new Roman Empire. Look how it ended.

Actually in many Western governments nearly all major religious groups are tax exempt. And you can't compare the acts of Hitler and Mussolini to the acts of Christianity. Besides, Christianity is not outdated especially given how much it has changed from its roots in Judaism. Oh, and since you mentioned it, the Spartans and Romans may very well have had homosexuality more open but it was also not so. Then as in now one's private life was to be private and also remember what ills they have done too. No group is clean.

[Miserabilia]

I never said I treat homosexuals different, in fact I said the opposite that I treat all the same.



Actually in many Western governments nearly all major religious groups are tax exempt. And you can't compare the acts of Hitler and Mussolini to the acts of Christianity. Besides, Christianity is not outdated especially given how much it has changed from its roots in Judaism. Oh, and since you mentioned it, the Spartans and Romans may very well have had homosexuality more open but it was also not so. Then as in now one's private life was to be private and also remember what ills they have done too. No group is clean.

I never said I treat homosexuals different, in fact I said the opposite that I treat all the same.


Your beleif specificly treats homosexuals differently, as described in your holy book

[Stronk Serb]

Actually in many Western governments nearly all major religious groups are tax exempt. And you can't compare the acts of Hitler and Mussolini to the acts of Christianity. Besides, Christianity is not outdated especially given how much it has changed from its roots in Judaism. Oh, and since you mentioned it, the Spartans and Romans may very well have had homosexuality more open but it was also not so. Then as in now one's private life was to be private and also remember what ills they have done too. No group is clean.

The fact that they are exepmt from taxes just because they do something is wrong. Now lets begin:
Spartans- waged defensive war against Persia, waged war against Athens because Athens edangered them. They were a community of equal.
Romans- built half of Europe an ruled it with laws an order, fought the barbarians, but they civilized them. When the republic was established, everyone was essetially eqal in their rights, except the slaves.
Christianity- the leadership:
supresses equality, asserts the political power of the Church, has set the world back for centuries, has commited genocide on a mass scale, started countless religious wars in which common man suffered, killed my ancestors, the pagans, my family members during WWII, killed almost a million Serbs.
The Christians:
Killed my ancestors and family members, commited genocide on a mass scale, harassing me, trying to indoctrinate me, forcing me to accept them even though they don't accept me...
How can you expect ME to treat Christianity and Christians equayl, like I would treat for example, Buddhism amd Buddhists, atheists and pagans if Christians doesn't treat me equally because an ancient storybook tells them to.

[yviedarling]

I think it's disgusting to drill anything into any child's head. My mother let me explore on my own, she didn't go to church, but she let me and my brother go and she let us quit when we realized we didn't like it. I've looked at a bunch of different religions, and my mom just sit back and let me do whatever. It may be an unpopular opinion, but I think you should let children explore things like that for themselves, and let them decide things on their own.

[Harry Smith]

I do not see why so many who are gay who want equality are so hellbent against one group, the Christians.

I want equality in the law-I'll give you a nice summary of what's happened in the last 30 years and before you say 'this is only one group-these actions were enforced by the members and leadership of the church''

-They enforced section 28 which banned homosexuality being discussed in schools.
-They opposed gay parents being able to adopt
-They opposed homosexuality being legalized in 1968
-They opposed civil partnerships in 2004
-They opposed the 2010 Equality act
-They opposed the 2013 gay marriage bill.

We want Equality within the law-that's a legal right

Every-time the government have tried to improve my life-to give me a shread of Equality the entire strength of the church has been thrown against me. That's why I'm not a big fan of the church-just look at what Comrade Mike posted a couple above about his family and community getting butchered by Christians. How else am I suppose to react to a group of people who have been opposing my very existence for the last 50 years?

[Miserabilia]

I think it's disgusting to drill anything into any child's head. My mother let me explore on my own, she didn't go to church, but she let me and my brother go and she let us quit when we realized we didn't like it. I've looked at a bunch of different religions, and my mom just sit back and let me do whatever. It may be an unpopular opinion, but I think you should let children explore things like that for themselves, and let them decide things on their own.

I completely aggree. I'm so glad I was also raised this way.

I want equality in the law-I'll give you a nice summary of what's happened in the last 30 years and before you say 'this is only one group-these actions were enforced by the members and leadership of the church''

-They enforced section 28 which banned homosexuality being discussed in schools.
-They opposed gay parents being able to adopt
-They opposed homosexuality being legalized in 1968
-They opposed civil partnerships in 2004
-They opposed the 2010 Equality act
-They opposed the 2013 gay marriage bill.

Every-time the government have tried to improve my life-to give me a shread of Equality the entire strength of the church has been thrown against me. That's why I'm not a big fan of the church-just look at what Comrade Mike posted a couple above about his family and community getting butchered by Christians. How else am I suppose to react to a group of people who have been opposing my very existence for the last 50 years?

^ This.

[Stronk Serb]

I want equality in the law-I'll give you a nice summary of what's happened in the last 30 years and before you say 'this is only one group-these actions were enforced by the members and leadership of the church''

-They enforced section 28 which banned homosexuality being discussed in schools.
-They opposed gay parents being able to adopt
-They opposed homosexuality being legalized in 1968
-They opposed civil partnerships in 2004
-They opposed the 2010 Equality act
-They opposed the 2013 gay marriage bill.

Every-time the government have tried to improve my life-to give me a shread of Equality the entire strength of the church has been thrown against me. That's why I'm not a big fan of the church-just look at what Comrade Mike posted a couple above about his family and community getting butchered by Christians. How else am I suppose to react to a group of people who have been opposing my very existence for the last 50 years?

The pagans were forcefully converted in the 9th and 10th century. The Byzantines slaughtered every Slavic man, woman and child in Pagania (named by the tribe Paganians, later named Travunia).They called themselves Paganians because they didn't accept Venetian and Byzantine missionaries and Christianity, and were kicking Venice off the Balkans. Then the Byzantines came and pretty much overran the Paganians. Not to mention the Catholic extermination of Lollard heretics which were pro-woman rights, or the Bogomilists who were for a secular state, and for a poor church (excluding the church from the feudal system). Bogomilist Bosnia was a secular state, the councils of the feudal lords didn't have court chaplains. Everyone was free to believe in anything or not to believe at all. The Pope called crusades against Bosnia, but the Bosnians kicked their asses every time. A man is willing to defend his freedom.

[Harry Smith]

The pagans were forcefully converted in the 9th and 10th century. The Byzantines slaughtered every Slavic man, woman and child in Pagania (named by the tribe Paganians, later named Travunia).They called themselves Paganians because they didn't accept Venetian and Byzantine missionaries and Christianity, and were kicking Venice off the Balkans. Then the Byzantines came and pretty much overran the Paganians. Not to mention the Catholic extermination of Lollard heretics which were pro-woman rights, or the Bogomilists who were for a secular state, and for a poor church (excluding the church from the feudal system). Bogomilist Bosnia was a secular state, the councils of the feudal lords didn't have court chaplains. Everyone was free to believe in anything or not to believe at all. The Pope called crusades against Bosnia, but the Bosnians kicked their asses every time. A man is willing to defend his freedom.

I always forget how badly the Balkan regions were treated in History by Catholics. Heck the Catholics across Europe supported the Nazis from day one, they even helped them escape Europe after the war ended

[Stronk Serb]

I always forget how badly the Balkan regions were treated in History by Catholics. Heck the Catholics across Europe supported the Nazis from day one, they even helped them escape Europe after the war ended

Yeah. You really have to be messed in the head to commit attrocities so bad to make the GERMANS intervene to stop you, but it were mostly Italian troops who stopped the massacres. I am talking about the Ustashas who escaped thanks to the Pope and the Vatican. In their death camps they killed more Serbs then Jews, not in gas chambers. They culled us like we were some kind of abomination, they straped razors to gloves and lined up Serbs and had contests who could kill more in a set amount of time.

[Lovelife090994]

The fact that they are exepmt from taxes just because they do something is wrong. Now lets begin:
Spartans- waged defensive war against Persia, waged war against Athens because Athens edangered them. They were a community of equal.
Romans- built half of Europe an ruled it with laws an order, fought the barbarians, but they civilized them. When the republic was established, everyone was essetially eqal in their rights, except the slaves.
Christianity- the leadership:
supresses equality, asserts the political power of the Church, has set the world back for centuries, has commited genocide on a mass scale, started countless religious wars in which common man suffered, killed my ancestors, the pagans, my family members during WWII, killed almost a million Serbs.
The Christians:
Killed my ancestors and family members, commited genocide on a mass scale, harassing me, trying to indoctrinate me, forcing me to accept them even though they don't accept me...
How can you expect ME to treat Christianity and Christians equayl, like I would treat for example, Buddhism amd Buddhists, atheists and pagans if Christians doesn't treat me
equally because an ancient storybook tells them to.

I hate how you just generalized and accused every Christian of murder. As I said to you months ago, I do not condone any evil and I am sorry for your loss, but I am not who murdered your family. Most Christians are not out to get anyone, actually in many countries Christians are treated very lowly. Now I cannot speak on behalf of all but I can impress how the negative acts of few do not represent all. I have been civil yet you insult my beliefs still after I said the truth that all Christians are not the same. You have it in your head that Christians are nothing more than murderers, and you are blaming all Christiandom for these vile acts no true Christian would partake in. The Bible is very vague at times, mysterious at others but like I hope you respect the Quran you must also respect the Bible and the Torah. I blame no one for the faith they have, it is up to the person. Back to homosexuality, many religious people happen to be in the LGBt and many of those people are Christian religiously-speaking.

The fact that they are exepmt from taxes just because they do something is wrong. Now lets begin:
Spartans- waged defensive war against Persia, waged war against Athens because Athens edangered them. They were a community of equal.
Romans- built half of Europe an ruled it with laws an order, fought the barbarians, but they civilized them. When the republic was established, everyone was essetially eqal in their rights, except the slaves.
Christianity- the leadership:
supresses equality, asserts the political power of the Church, has set the world back for centuries, has commited genocide on a mass scale, started countless religious wars in which common man suffered, killed my ancestors, the pagans, my family members during WWII, killed almost a million Serbs.
The Christians:
Killed my ancestors and family members, commited genocide on a mass scale, harassing me, trying to indoctrinate me, forcing me to accept them even though they don't accept me...

How can you expect ME to treat Christianity and Christians equayl, like I would treat for example, Buddhism amd Buddhists, atheists and pagans if Christians doesn't treat me equally because an ancient storybook tells them to.

The Bible says to love thy neighbor, anyone not doing this is comitting a sin that will be judged later by the only one who can judge.

I want equality in the law-I'll give you a nice summary of what's happened in the last 30 years and before you say 'this is only one group-these actions were enforced by the members and leadership of the church''

-They enforced section 28 which banned homosexuality being discussed in schools.
-They opposed gay parents being able to adopt
-They opposed homosexuality being legalized in 1968
-They opposed civil partnerships in 2004
-They opposed the 2010 Equality act
-They opposed the 2013 gay marriage bill.

We want Equality within the law-that's a legal right

Every-time the government have tried to improve my life-to give me a shread of Equality the entire strength of the church has been thrown against me. That's why I'm not a big fan of the church-just look at what Comrade Mike posted a couple above about his family and community getting butchered by Christians. How else am I suppose to react to a group of people who have been opposing my very existence for the last 50 years?


Wasn't homosexual marriage just recently passed as legal in England? Now, can I say this? Many Christians such as myself would never treat you diffferent although you do seem to hold a grudge and blame the group as a whole. I would not treat you differently unless of course you treat me bad because of my faith, then I am avoiding you to avoid trouble. In fact I would never fight your existence nor would many Catholics. But, you are acting like you are all your sexuality which is not the case I'm sure. If you want equality then fight the corrupt few not the innocent many. I can see why you are wary of Christians since many Christians are too, but I would never blame all evil on one group. My family was wronged my racist whites who used Christianity to justify their hate. I do not like that, but I know a truth they don't, God is not a god of hate and that those who use his name as such are deathly confused. I don't think Christians and homosexuals will ever truly be at peace given our vast differences between our vast numbers, but I'd like to think that we shouldn't hate and judge anyone either. Like I said, I've no quarrel with you, but I wonder why you have a quarrel with all of Christiandom. I understand the many bad deeds done to homosexuals but this is not to be ignored or blamed on a whole group.

Merged double post. -Cygnus David

[Stronk Serb]

I hate how you just generalized and accused every Christian of murder. As I said to you months ago, I do not condone any evil and I am sorry for your loss, but I am not who murdered your family. Most Christians are not out to get anyone, actually in many countries Christians are treated very lowly. Now I cannot speak on behalf of all but I can impress how the negative acts of few do not represent all. I have been civil yet you insult my beliefs still after I said the truth that all Christians are not the same. You have it in your head that Christians are nothing more than murderers, and you are blaming all Christiandom for these vile acts no true Christian would partake in. The Bible is very vague at times, mysterious at others but like I hope you respect the Quran you must also respect the Bible and the Torah. I blame no one for the faith they have, it is up to the person. Back to homosexuality, many religious people happen to be in the LGBt and many of those people are Christian religiously-speaking.

The Bible says to love thy neighbor, anyone not doing this is comitting a sin that will be judged later by the only one who can judge.




Wasn't homosexual marriage just recently passed as legal in England? Now, can I say this? Many Christians such as myself would never treat you diffferent although you do seem to hold a grudge and blame the group as a whole. I would not treat you differently unless of course you treat me bad because of my faith, then I am avoiding you to avoid trouble. In fact I would never fight your existence nor would many Catholics. But, you are acting like you are all your sexuality which is not the case I'm sure. If you want equality then fight the corrupt few not the innocent many. I can see why you are wary of Christians since many Christians are too, but I would never blame all evil on one group. My family was wronged my racist whites who used Christianity to justify their hate. I do not like that, but I know a truth they don't, God is not a god of hate and that those who use his name as such are deathly confused. I don't think Christians and homosexuals will ever truly be at peace given our vast differences between our vast numbers, but I'd like to think that we shouldn't hate and judge anyone either. Like I said, I've no quarrel with you, but I wonder why you have a quarrel with all of Christiandom. I understand the many bad deeds done to homosexuals but this is not to be ignored or blamed on a whole group.

Yes, I have a quarrel with Christianity. It was shoved alongside the cross down Slavic throat. Christianity divided us. Many of it's ideas are outdated. Would you support a religion and it's followers even though they slaughtered your family members, your fellow pagans, are trying to convert you and are not treating you

[Lovelife090994]

Yes, I have a quarrel with Christianity. It was shoved alongside the cross down Slavic throat. Christianity divided us. Many of it's ideas are outdated. Would you support a religion and it's followers even though they slaughtered your family members, your fellow pagans, are trying to convert you and are not treating you

But that is my point; not all of Christendom is doing those acts of conversion, murder, division, and malice. How can you seek togetherness when you choose division still? Your family was slaughtered by a negative group hiding under the veil of religion with Christianity as the scapegoat? Okay, I see where that would make any human angry. You say our beliefs are outdated? Fair enough, religion is not for everyone. Paganism is very vague since many cultures fall under that word as "Pagan". Again, I am a Christian and not shoving a cross down anyone's throat. This is not what God hath intended. Is there anything that can make you see why it is bad to have a quarrel with an entire faith from one or more bad acts when not all who follow this faith are the same? Christendom is not a world of violence and since many Christians try to reach out and do good as we all know good news rarely makes headlines. I can understand your anger, I do. But some things must be released. I could have the same attitude to the White race but I do not because for one, that is racism, and two, no one White today is responsible for those actions. If you wish to be angry, then be angry at those who did your family wrong, not an entire group of belief system. A belief in itself is harmless, even the Bible is harmless since it is just a book. The Bible is not going to become possessed and start whacking you in the head. In fact I wish you weren't so hurt and angry. But know this, you are still here, your family lived on, you can still do great things, or hold hatred in your heart and watch it blacken. Think about it. We'll be in touch.

[Harry Smith]

God is not a god of hate and that those who use his name as such are deathly confused. . Like I said, I've no quarrel with you, but I wonder why you have a quarrel with all of Christiandom. I understand the many bad deeds done to homosexuals but this is not to be ignored or blamed on a whole group.

I have to blame it on the whole group because that's the very political nature-if the leadership of the church and the members of the church approve of such anti-homosexual laws like that in the '80s then I have a right to blame the whole group-in the same way that one good SS officer doesn't make the third Reich good.

And yes your God is a god of hate-in fact he's a god of genocide, rape and murder

[Stronk Serb]

But that is my point; not all of Christendom is doing those acts of conversion, murder, division, and malice. How can you seek togetherness when you choose division still? Your family was slaughtered by a negative group hiding under the veil of religion with Christianity as the scapegoat? Okay, I see where that would make any human angry. You say our beliefs are outdated? Fair enough, religion is not for everyone. Paganism is very vague since many cultures fall under that word as "Pagan". Again, I am a Christian and not shoving a cross down anyone's throat. This is not what God hath intended. Is there anything that can make you see why it is bad to have a quarrel with an entire faith from one or more bad acts when not all who follow this faith are the same? Christendom is not a world of violence and since many Christians try to reach out and do good as we all know good news rarely makes headlines. I can understand your anger, I do. But some things must be released. I could have the same attitude to the White race but I do not because for one, that is racism, and two, no one White today is responsible for those actions. If you wish to be angry, then be angry at those who did your family wrong, not an entire group of belief system. A belief in itself is harmless, even the Bible is harmless since it is just a book. The Bible is not going to become possessed and start whacking you in the head. In fact I wish you weren't so hurt and angry. But know this, you are still here, your family lived on, you can still do great things, or hold hatred in your heart and watch it blacken. Think about it. We'll be in touch.

I blame it on the whole religion because all those attrocities had the support of the church from day one. Just because there are good Christians, it doesn't mean the religion is good. Just because some Italian soldiers said that the Ustashas can't have their sick pleasure time killing Serbs doesn't make Fascist Italy good. It makes those men good, but Fascist Italy is still the same. I stopped trying to get closer to hardcore Christians where I live, it always ends badly. I accept them for who they are and they get pissed afterwards if I say gay people should have the right to get married and walk the streets freely, or that we should either teach about all religions at school or teach about none at all, or that the church should pay taxes or stop wasting donation money buying Mercedes and Lexus cars for the clergy. They should renovate the monasteries with that money because they are "raising" it for decades now. They should either use that money for good, or the state should get paid taxes. So much money goes through the church so they could manage to pay taxes and renovate and build more.

[Lovelife090994]

I have to blame it on the whole group because that's the very political nature-if the leadership of the church and the members of the church approve of such anti-homosexual laws like that in the '80s then I have a right to blame the whole group-in the same way that one good SS officer doesn't make the third Reich good.

And yes your God is a god of hate-in fact he's a god of genocide, rape and murder

My God is not a God of Hate. Insulting me again. You are no better than the bad people who've done you wrong. I wanted to reconcile with you but all you do is blame, insult, and belittle me and my words at each turn. Aren't you tired of harboring hate in your heart? If I caan judge no one and extend a loving hand then so can you. Or maybe not. I'll be praying for your heart to heal, it sounds crushed.

[Lovelife090994]

I blame it on the whole religion because all those attrocities had the support of the church from day one. Just because there are good Christians, it doesn't mean the religion is good. Just because some Italian soldiers said that the Ustashas can't have their sick pleasure time killing Serbs doesn't make Fascist Italy good. It makes those men good, but Fascist Italy is still the same. I stopped trying to get closer to hardcore Christians where I live, it always ends badly. I accept them for who they are and they get pissed afterwards if I say gay people should have the right to get married and walk the streets freely, or that we should either teach about all religions at school or teach about none at all, or that the church should pay taxes or stop wasting donation money buying Mercedes and Lexus cars for the clergy. They should renovate the monasteries with that money because they are "raising" it for decades now. They should either use that money for good, or the state should get paid taxes. So much money goes through the church so they could manage to pay taxes and renovate and build more.

Some of your views are quite extreme which may be why you are angering the, I'm guessing Orthodox Christians in the area. I hate it when people blame everything on Christianity, and most schools teach of the major religions. There are thousands of religions, all deserve to not be mocked or misused. A Christian is not a fascist make. Have you tried not shoving your ideas? Your ideas sound like you shout them at people. No one wants to be shouted at or have their beliefs belittled. Gays still have rights, in some places people have little rights of religious freedom and basic freedom because of their faith. Plus every religion has a history, all history should be learned but that is hard to teach. Why don't you be the beacon here? Teach love, avoid the hate.

[Stronk Serb]

Some of your views are quite extreme which may be why you are angering the, I'm guessing Orthodox Christians in the area. I hate it when people blame everything on Christianity, and most schools teach of the major religions. There are thousands of religions, all deserve to not be mocked or misused. A Christian is not a fascist make. Have you tried not shoving your ideas? Your ideas sound like you shout them at people. No one wants to be shouted at or have their beliefs belittled. Gays still have rights, in some places people have little rights of religious freedom and basic freedom because of their faith. Plus every religion has a history, all history should be learned but that is hard to teach. Why don't you be the beacon here? Teach love, avoid the hate.

I usually befriend the Christian, after some talk he says something radical, like gays should be deprived of their rights. I ask why, and the answer is that they are abominations. That either makes me argue with him or distance myself without a word said. Usually I just distance myself because I don't want to argue with people who use the religion for hate, there's no point. Or when they talk about non-believers... I stopped befriending them due to intolerance. Almost all my friends are atheists, but there are a few Christians who are polite enough to not mock me or convert me, so I don't mock them. They criticize the Church extremely, disregarding it's dogma and teachings, because they think the Church got decadent and strayed from the original path. They think the message was more clear when there was no hierarchy.

[Lovelife090994]

I usually befriend the Christian, after some talk he says something radical, like gays should be deprived of their rights. I ask why, and the answer is that they are abominations. That either makes me argue with him or distance myself without a word said. Usually I just distance myself because I don't want to argue with people who use the religion for hate, there's no point. Or when they talk about non-believers... I stopped befriending them due to intolerance. Almost all my friends are atheists, but there are a few Christians who are polite enough to not mock me or convert me, so I don't mock them. They criticize the Church extremely, disregarding it's dogma and teachings, because they think the Church got decadent and strayed from the original path. They think the message was more clear when there was no hierarchy.

While the Church has changed for Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodoxians, a Christian saying that is going by the Bible on homosexuality as a sin. As for denying rights that is un-Christian. I try to have friends of all walks of life and faiths. I agree, the churches today are tarnished, but some are a beacon, and I would never say to a person how wrong their church and faith are directly. Like I said I am sorry for the losses and hurt by the violence, but this doesn't make out all Christians to be the same. In fact in other countries gays, different believers, and women have little to no equal rights on anything.

[darthearth]

Brainwashing is trying to make someone unable to think for themselves isn't it? In this case, you have a parent that believes something is true and simply instructs their child in this truth. Doesn't seem to be an effort to make the child unable to think for themselves. And after looking up the meaning of "indoctrination", it seems that to even call it that it would have to be teaching to accept something uncritically, which need not be the case at all. Many perfectly reasonable people critically accept the Christian faith. So, I don't see a problem. Not sure how much "critical" material you can throw at a toddler though, but you can at least give a reason to believe in God based on the creation itself. Even a 4 year old might understand that.

[Miserabilia]

Brainwashing is trying to make someone unable to think for themselves isn't it? In this case, you have a parent that believes something is true and simply instructs their child in this truth. Doesn't seem to be an effort to make the child unable to think for themselves. And after looking up the meaning of "indoctrination", it seems that to even call it that it would have to be teaching to accept something uncritically, which need not be the case at all. Many perfectly reasonable people critically accept the Christian faith. So, I don't see a problem. Not sure how much "critical" material you can throw at a toddler though, but you can at least give a reason to believe in God based on the creation itself. Even a 4 year old might understand that.

Well, we as humans like to feel free and uncontrollable with our minds;
but statistics show that kids that were raised in a religion stay that way the rest of their life in most cases;
if they were really able to think for themselves, wouldn't they atleast have switched religions?

[Stronk Serb]

While the Church has changed for Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodoxians, a Christian saying that is going by the Bible on homosexuality as a sin. As for denying rights that is un-Christian. I try to have friends of all walks of life and faiths. I agree, the churches today are tarnished, but some are a beacon, and I would never say to a person how wrong their church and faith are directly. Like I said I am sorry for the losses and hurt by the violence, but this doesn't make out all Christians to be the same. In fact in other countries gays, different believers, and women have little to no equal rights on anything.

Still, the Church shouldn't try to make life miserable for everyone.

[Lovelife090994]

Still, the Church shouldn't try to make life miserable for everyone.

A fair many of churches even ones under a Church is not out to make life miserable. In fact, many churches and Christians alike are blamed for the shortcomings.

Well, we as humans like to feel free and uncontrollable with our minds;
but statistics show that kids that were raised in a religion stay that way the rest of their life in most cases;
if they were really able to think for themselves, wouldn't they atleast have switched religions?

You do realize that not everyone born in a religious family is religious right?

Merged double post. -Cygnus David

[Vlerchan]

Brainwashing is trying to make someone unable to think for themselves isn't it?

Brainwashing (n): any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion. Brainwashing (n): a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas.Brainwashing (n): pressurize (someone) into adopting radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible means.Brainwashing (n): to make someone believe something by repeatedly telling them that it is true and preventing any other information from reaching them.

So, brainwashing means to indoctrainate and indoctriante is furthermore defined as to mean: "[to] teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically," according to Oxford; "to often repeat an idea or belief to someone in order to persuade them to accept it," according to Cambridge; and "to teach (someone) to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs," according to Merriam-Webster. An individual who is brainwashed may in fact be capable of thinking for themselves but finds the 'evidence' favouring their case to be so strong (in their own minds) that they just don't want to think for themselves. To quote a friend of mine - when questionaed about some subset of her beliefs; I can't remember what exactly: "It just doesn't *FEEL* right."

[Harry Smith]

My God is not a God of Hate. Insulting me again. You are no better than the bad people who've done you wrong. I wanted to reconcile with you but all you do is blame, insult, and belittle me and my words at each turn. Aren't you tired of harboring hate in your heart? If I caan judge no one and extend a loving hand then so can you. Or maybe not. I'll be praying for your heart to heal, it sounds crushed.

How am I insulting you? The bible clearly shows examples how how your 'God' murders people, kills entire cities doesn't it. I'm not insulting you by simply repeating the bible-do you understand that?

This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

[Miserabilia]

You do realize that not everyone born in a religious family is religious right?

Sigh... I already showed the statistics, been over this.
Also, "everyone"?
Did I say "Everyone"?
No.
Please stop doing that, I'm pretty tired of your typical response with "not ALL this, not EVERY that."
I said MOST, that the chances are HIGHER, just look at the statistics.

A. Major Religions

Protestant 90.4%
Catholic 82.3
Jewish 86.6
Other 70.5


B. Major Protestant Denominations

Southern Baptist 71.8
United Methodist 63.0
Lutheran 80.0
Presbyterian 56.7
Episcopalian 71.6
Interdenominational 47.1
Disciples of Christ 63.9
Mormon 90.8
Fundamentalist 73.7
Moderate 57.0
Liberal 46.4


C. Fundamentalism/Liberalism

Fundamentalist 80.3
Moderate 81.9
Liberal 71.6

(Percentage of people in religious families that are religious)

[Lovelife090994]

How am I insulting you? The bible clearly shows examples how how your 'God' murders people, kills entire cities doesn't it. I'm not insulting you by simply repeating the bible-do you understand that?

That statement was never to you. God is not hateful but he does punish the wicked. God himself has never been one to hate his children, if anything he is disappointed as any father would be be. Plus, why so critical to a religion that is not your own? I could say all homosexuals are anti-Christian atheists but I can't since that isn't true. With you however that is true.

Sigh... I already showed the statistics, been over this.
Also, "everyone"?
Did I say "Everyone"?
No.
Please stop doing that, I'm pretty tired of your typical response with "not ALL this, not EVERY that."
I said MOST, that the chances are HIGHER, just look at the statistics.

A. Major Religions

Protestant 90.4%
Catholic 82.3
Jewish 86.6
Other 70.5


B. Major Protestant Denominations

Southern Baptist 71.8
United Methodist 63.0
Lutheran 80.0
Presbyterian 56.7
Episcopalian 71.6
Interdenominational 47.1
Disciples of Christ 63.9
Mormon 90.8
Fundamentalist 73.7
Moderate 57.0
Liberal 46.4


C. Fundamentalism/Liberalism

Fundamentalist 80.3
Moderate 81.9
Liberal 71.6
(Percentage of people in religious families that are religious)


You don't have a problem with religious families do you? Almost all of those examples were from Christianity. There is more than Christianity in the world you know.

Merged double post. -Cygnus David

[Harry Smith]

You don't have a problem with religious families do you? Almost all of those examples were from Christianity. There is more than Christianity in the world you kknow.

Once again your trying to shift the blame and the argument. It doesn't make Christianity better if the rest are terrible

That statement was never to you. God is not hateful but he does punish the wicked. God himself has never been one to hate his children, if anything he is disappointed as any father would be be. Plus, why so critical to a religion that is not your own? I could say all homosexuals are anti-Christian atheists but I can't since that isn't true. With you however that is true.

Why am I so critical? Maybe it's because the leaders of the Church of England/Catholic church and the members-about 99% of the church did the following-

-They enforced section 28 which banned homosexuality being discussed in schools.
-They opposed gay parents being able to adopt
-They opposed homosexuality being legalized in 1968
-They opposed civil partnerships in 2004
-They opposed the 2010 Equality act
-They opposed the 2013 gay marriage bill.
-Told people with HIV not to use condoms but still reproduce
-Cover up historic child abuse allegations

That's why I'm so critical, and from a debating view it shouldn't matter why I'm critical-you keep trying to switch the topic and throw it off course. I don't need a reason to be critical.

If I disappointed my 'father' I'd hope he wouldn't murder me and my entire village. In fact your God has massacred entire cities according to the Bible, so please tell me what wicked acts did the young children do

[Lovelife090994]

Once again your trying to shift the blame and the argument. It doesn't make Christianity better if the rest are terrible



Why am I so critical? Maybe it's because the leaders of the Church of England/Catholic church and the members-about 99% of the church did the following-

-They enforced section 28 which banned homosexuality being discussed in schools.
-They opposed gay parents being able to adopt
-They opposed homosexuality being legalized in 1968
-They opposed civil partnerships in 2004
-They opposed the 2010 Equality act
-They opposed the 2013 gay marriage bill.
-Told people with HIV not to use condoms but still reproduce
-Cover up historic child abuse allegations

That's why I'm so critical, and from a debating view it shouldn't matter why I'm critical-you keep trying to switch the topic and throw it off course. I don't need a reason to be critical.

If I disappointed my 'father' I'd hope he wouldn't murder me and my entire village. In fact your God has massacred entire cities according to the Bible, so please tell me what wicked acts did the young children do

Who is shifting? I am saying how he should bring up all religions and not only one. God is not this murderer, he is loving. I fail to see the validity of your percentages and I also failto see why you are still so angry. Wasn't gay marriage recently passed where you live? And even if it wasn't that does not merit you to deride every Catholic in your area or in the world. Being critical is dangerous because if not unchecked from your life it will harden your heart. You can say whatever you wish of Christians and our faith but that doesn't make it trrue. You are so full of blame and shifting. You just blamed all of Christendom for an issue that many Christians will go to the Bible for. Is that not their right as a religious people? In America many have made their stance on homosexuality clear by going to their faith regardless of it's shortcomings but like Christians these people still love each other. Do you want change? Then quit living a life of hatred and live a life of what you wannt to do versus a life that is only based on your sexuality. Maybe get a hobby, talk to some friends, volunteer at a local church, help the elderly, feed those in need. I have helped in many of those things and they do let you see people in a better light and help restore hope. Now, maybe you have done all of that, great! But can't you find something better to do than to be mean to a person you've never met? I never said I approve of your listed complaints, but unlike you I do not blame the whole Church either. The Catholic Church has corruption for years and while there are many good Catholics out there it is the corrupt who speak loudest. Even the Pope himself has faced opposition at weeding out the corruption. Now, I am not Catholic but I know a fair many. While many side for gay marriage none side at blaming a whole faith or more.

[Harry Smith]

I never said I approve of your listed complaints, but unlike you I do not blame the whole Church either.

So when God told people to massacre villages was that loving?

On the part I quoted that's just you being very naive-the leadership and members of the church agreed to the above hence the entire organisation is to blame.

[Lovelife090994]

So when God told people to massacre villages was that loving?

On the part I quoted that's just you being very naive-the leadership and members of the church agreed to the above hence the entire organisation is to blame.

No the entire church is not to blame. God never said to murder anyone. Have you not heard of God's works? He works miracles, he gives sight to the blind, he helps those who call upon his name, and he forgives all.

[Stronk Serb]

No the entire church is not to blame. God never said to murder anyone. Have you not heard of God's works? He works miracles, he gives sight to the blind, he helps those who call upon his name, and he forgives all.

Sodom? Gomorrah? Those two cities were destroyed by his wrath.

[Harry Smith]

No the entire church is not to blame. God never said to murder anyone. Have you not heard of God's works? He works miracles, he gives sight to the blind, he helps those who call upon his name, and he forgives all.

Yes it is-the members and leadership support it. That equals the entire church.

God can't cure blindness, do you have any actual evidence that this happened?

And as Mike said Sodom

[Lovelife090994]

Sodom? Gomorrah? Those two cities were destroyed by his wrath.

As was the world in the Great Flood which has mention outside of the Bible. Sodom and Gomorrah, I think we all have heard of that. God does have wrath when it comes. To the wicked. However to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah the people were very evil in their ways and continuously defied God. He sent his Judgement. But even that story doesn't make God and every Jew, Muslim, and Christian wrong. I mention all since all three faiths supoosedly believe in the same god as God. Bear in mind that is the Old Testament before Jesus died for us to be forgiven.

[Lovelife090994]

Yes it is-the members and leadership support it. That equals the entire church.

God can't cure blindness, do you have any actual evidence that this happened?

And as Mike said Sodom

I just replied to Mike. God has healed and helped many, you just have to open your eyes to his good works. God also helped me and to that I am grateful.

[Harry Smith]

I just replied to Mike. God has healed and helped many, you just have to open your eyes to his good works. God also helped me and to that I am grateful.

So you don't have any physical/legal evidence of God curing blindness, please present some if you do.

But even that story doesn't make God wrong

Yes it does-it's genocide. Genocide is never acceptable, neither is the murder of young children and women. That's wrong in nearly every single culture

[Lovelife090994]

So you don't have any physical/legal evidence of God curing blindness, please present some if you do.



Yes it does-it's genocide. Genocide is never acceptable, neither is the murder of young children and women. That's wrong in nearly every single culture

Try a church of deliverance, many have been healed from God's power. By his stripes we are healed as said in the Bible. I never said genocide was acceptable. Don't tell me you think Christians approve of such killing and low treatment of women? That's not the cloth we are cut from. We look to correct our mistakes and to love one another. We judge not but do warn if necessary. And the story of Sodom and Gomorrah predates Christianity itself. That story is from the the Jewish teachings which have changed as they were added to the Bible. For proof of God? My mother and I. She was said to not be here today and is, she was blind with a stroke and saw God, she was saved and healed. When I was born I was very weak, small, and premature and yet I lived out of a dozen. Even then I was diagnosed to never speak and yet I can. I was supposed to go deaf, but I hear. That is a miracle, that is healing, that is God, and that was grace.

[Harry Smith]

Try a church of deliverance, many have been healed from God's power. By his stripes we are healed as said in the Bible. I never said genocide was acceptable. Don't tell me you think Christians approve of such killing and low treatment of women? That's not the cloth we are cut from. We look to correct our mistakes and to love one another. We judge not but do warn if necessary. And the story of Sodom and Gomorrah predates Christianity itself. That story is from the the Jewish teachings which have changed as they were added to the Bible. For proof of God? My mother and I. She was said to not be here today and is, she was blind with a stroke and saw God, she was saved and healed. When I was born I was very weak, small, and premature and yet I lived out of a dozen. Even then I was diagnosed to never speak and yet I can. I was supposed to go deaf, but I hear. That is a miracle, that is healing, that is God, and that was grace.

That's not God-that's modern medicine. That doesn't prove God's existence at all-it just proves that you survided. It's like me cutting my artery, surviving and then claiming that God saved me. Just because you say something doesn't make it true. Heck I was born premature and survive-that had fuck all to do with God.

I'll ask again though-do you have any legal/scientific evidence that God can cure blindess?

[Lovelife090994]

That's not God-that's modern medicine. That doesn't prove God's existence at all-it just proves that you survided. It's like me cutting my artery, surviving and then claiming that God saved me. Just because you say something doesn't make it true. Heck I was born premature and survive-that had fuck all to do with God.

I'll ask again though-do you have any legal/scientific evidence that God can cure blindess?

You won't believe me so have a good day.

[Harry Smith]

You won't believe me so have a good day.

I won't believe you because you haven't presented any evidence...

[Rallo]

Non-bias view:
I can't say I support this, forcing something into someones head at a young age to higher chances of them believing it when they're older is simply wrong.
I mean, the mental impact that telling a child someone they can't see, hear or feel is their friend could have, this could lead to serious problems later in their lives. Simply telling a child about various things in the bible is always great, however there's got to be limits; you can't just tell a <4 year old they have a friend they can't see, hear or touch, the results from that could simply be terrifying.
That aside though, I don't believe ever forcing your beliefs on someone who is too young to make their own decisions or have their own beliefs is very ethical.

From a religions point of view (pretty much the same as non-bias):
I'm not sure about other religions, though in Christianity, I believe I remember reading in the bible to spread the word, not to bash it into someones head at a young age.

[Lovelife090994]

I won't believe you because you haven't presented any evidence...

Yes I did, personal experience is as good as your words. I told you the truth. What do you want? A conversion? Christians walk by faith not by sight, we look to faith. You cannot disprove God nor tell me he does not exists. He is real to me and forever in my heart.

[Harry Smith]

Yes I did, personal experience is as good as your words. I told you the truth. What do you want? A conversion? Christians walk by faith not by sight, we look to faith. You cannot disprove God nor tell me he does not exists. He is real to me and forever in my heart.

Obi Wan Kenobi is real to me and in my heart that doesn't make him real. If your going to claim that God can cure miracles you need to present some actual evidence-you know like a scientific study proving that he can, or some accurate reports. What would happen if you stood up in court and said all this?

[Stronk Serb]

Try a church of deliverance, many have been healed from God's power. By his stripes we are healed as said in the Bible. I never said genocide was acceptable. Don't tell me you think Christians approve of such killing and low treatment of women? That's not the cloth we are cut from. We look to correct our mistakes and to love one another. We judge not but do warn if necessary. And the story of Sodom and Gomorrah predates Christianity itself. That story is from the the Jewish teachings which have changed as they were added to the Bible. For proof of God? My mother and I. She was said to not be here today and is, she was blind with a stroke and saw God, she was saved and healed. When I was born I was very weak, small, and premature and yet I lived out of a dozen. Even then I was diagnosed to never speak and yet I can. I was supposed to go deaf, but I hear. That is a miracle, that is healing, that is God, and that was grace.

When my mother gave birth to me, I didn't breathe for ten minutes. It wasn't Perun, Dažbog or Triglav that made me take my first breath, it were the doctors fighting for an infant's life. And why burn Sodom? Because the population was openly practicing homosexuality?

[Miserabilia]

Yes I did, personal experience is as good as your words. I told you the truth. What do you want? A conversion? Christians walk by faith not by sight, we look to faith. You cannot disprove God nor tell me he does not exists. He is real to me and forever in my heart.

You cannot disprove spaghetti monsters or tell me they do not exist. They are real to me and forever in my heart <3



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

[Lovelife090994]

You cannot disprove spaghetti monsters or tell me they do not exist. They are real to me and forever in my heart <3



image (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg)

That wasn't the point. Pastafarianism came from Christianity, if you are Pastafarian then keep to that. I am Christian so I am keeping to that.

[Lovelife090994]

Obi Wan Kenobi is real to me and in my heart that doesn't make him real. If your going to claim that God can cure miracles you need to present some actual evidence-you know like a scientific study proving that he can, or some accurate reports. What would happen if you stood up in court and said all this?

You can have that belief, the Jedi beliefs are a religion also. I would say it in court, I am Christian, I am human, I've a heart and it is God's.

[darthearth]

Yes I did, personal experience is as good as your words. I told you the truth. What do you want? A conversion? Christians walk by faith not by sight, we look to faith. You cannot disprove God nor tell me he does not exists. He is real to me and forever in my heart.

Atheists for some reason refuse reasonable anecdotal evidence (and very unreasonably refuse it in my opinion) or any rational beliefs based upon it. I've discovered that in these forums. It's a shame, you just have to witness what you can and let them go - like you tried to do above when you said "have a good day" (cheers on that one by the way).

[Miserabilia]

Atheists for some reason refuse reasonable anecdotal evidence (and very unreasonably refuse it in my opinion) or any rational beliefs based upon it. I've discovered that in these forums. It's a shame, you just have to witness what you can and let them go - like you tried to do above when you said "have a good day" (cheers on that one by the way).

I am supposed to beleive something that only has anacdotal evidence, okay, but it's not just that;
it's things that are unheard of to have ACTUALY happened, as in never an official documentation that is not just human.
Extraordinairy things require more extraordinairy evidence than anactodal.

So, lots of people see/hear/feel god?
There are also thousands of people that see UFO's flying through the sky and kidnapping their cows or whatever,
are we supposed to take that as evidence?

[Stronk Serb]

I am supposed to beleive something that only has anacdotal evidence, okay, but it's not just that;
it's things that are unheard of to have ACTUALY happened, as in never an official documentation that is not just human.
Extraordinairy things require more extraordinairy evidence than anactodal.

So, lots of people see/hear/feel god?
There are also thousands of people that see UFO's flying through the sky and kidnapping their cows or whatever,
are we supposed to take that as evidence?

Hey UFOs do exist! :mad: I was beamed up on an UFO and the aliens implanted an anal probe in me. Now I fart fire all the time and a weird 18 foot long dish comes out, broadcasts a signal and rolls back in.

[Lovelife090994]

I am supposed to beleive something that only has anacdotal evidence, okay, but it's not just that;
it's things that are unheard of to have ACTUALY happened, as in never an official documentation that is not just human.
Extraordinairy things require more extraordinairy evidence than anactodal.

So, lots of people see/hear/feel god?
There are also thousands of people that see UFO's flying through the sky and kidnapping their cows or whatever,
are we supposed to take that as evidence?

Wow, just because it didn't happen to you it is not true? Have a nice life with that attitude. To be an atheist does not mean be a jerk.

[StoppingTime]

Atheists for some reason refuse reasonable anecdotal evidence (and very unreasonably refuse it in my opinion) or any rational beliefs based upon it. I've discovered that in these forums. It's a shame, you just have to witness what you can and let them go - like you tried to do above when you said "have a good day" (cheers on that one by the way).

I wouldn't identify as atheist, and yet I don't think the claim has any place in this thread, either. A debate (of any kind, really) should be backed up by tangible evidence, and clearly that claim is not. It doesn't matter whether, in reality, it happened or not. What matters is that it can be proven in some form for others to understand, and it simply can't be. Therefore, it has no credibility or relevance in this debate.

[Lovelife090994]

I wouldn't identify as atheist, and yet I don't think the claim has any place in this thread, either. A debate (of any kind, really) should be backed up by tangible evidence, and clearly that claim is not. It doesn't matter whether, in reality, it happened or not. What matters is that it can be proven in some form for others to understand, and it simply can't be. Therefore, it has no credibility or relevance in this debate.

But with this logic then no religious person will ever prove their beliefs to an atheist or non-believer simply because their proof can't be seen. This is not a good claim to go on. Even a personal experience can be seen as proof. I doubt each of the world's religions will ever agree, I even doubt most atheists will accept that religion is by faith and that faith is by sight, but don't dismiss a person's word because it is of religion and can't be proven nor disproven.

[Miserabilia]

Hey UFOs do exist! :mad: I was beamed up on an UFO and the aliens implanted an anal probe in me. Now I fart fire all the time and a weird 18 foot long dish comes out, broadcasts a signal and rolls back in.
lol xD
Wow, just because it didn't happen to you it is not true? Have a nice life with that attitude. To be an atheist does not mean be a jerk.
?
Are you saying that you do beleive in alien abductions?
Because there is equal amount of "proof" for your god and alien abductions.
Might as well beleive both right? Both hard to beleive claims with only testimonial evidence.

But with this logic then no religious person will ever prove their beliefs to an atheist or non-believer simply because their proof can't be seen. This is not a good claim to go on. Even a personal experience can be seen as proof. I doubt each of the world's religions will ever agree, I even doubt most atheists will accept that religion is by faith and that faith is by sight, but don't dismiss a person's word because it is of religion and can't be proven nor disproven.
This is not a good claim to go on.

Yes it is. This type of proof is like saying:

Oh look, can you see that unicorn?
It's not a visable unicorn, and only we can see it, you can't, and you can't proove it's there but trust me we KNOW it's there , we can feel it in our hearts, the magical unicorn.

[Stronk Serb]

lol xD

?
Are you saying that you do beleive in alien abductions?
Because there is equal amount of "proof" for your god and alien abductions.
Might as well beleive both right? Both hard to beleive claims with only testimonial evidence.




Yes it is. This type of proof is like saying:

Oh look, can you see that unicorn?
It's not a visable unicorn, and only we can see it, you can't, and you can't proove it's there but trust me we KNOW it's there , we can feel it in our hearts, the magical unicorn.

South Park reference, anyone?
But yeah, if we are to believe stories like that, then we also must believe that people were abducted by UFOs, believe every government conspiracy and believe every religion is the one true faith, that Valkyries rode the skies, that pegasuses rode around, that Stribog flew areoumd... the last two are biologically impossible to exist, but we must believe they are true.

[Miserabilia]

South Park reference, anyone?
But yeah, if we are to believe stories like that, then we also must believe that people were abducted by UFOs, believe every government conspiracy and believe every religion is the one true faith, that Valkyries rode the skies, that pegasuses rode around, that Stribog flew areoumd... the last two are biologically impossible to exist, but we must believe they are true.

Yup :yes:

[Lovelife090994]

Yup :yes:

South Park reference, anyone?
But yeah, if we are to believe stories like that, then we also must believe that people were abducted by UFOs, believe every government conspiracy and believe every religion is the one true faith, that Valkyries rode the skies, that pegasuses rode around, that Stribog flew areoumd... the last two are biologically impossible to exist, but we must believe they are true.

lol xD

?
Are you saying that you do beleive in alien abductions?
Because there is equal amount of "proof" for your god and alien abductions.
Might as well beleive both right? Both hard to beleive claims with only testimonial evidence.




Yes it is. This type of proof is like saying:

Oh look, can you see that unicorn?
It's not a visable unicorn, and only we can see it, you can't, and you can't proove it's there but trust me we KNOW it's there , we can feel it in our hearts, the magical unicorn.

Oh come now, how uncouth. You don't have to become a brick wall to the myserious. I believe in aliens and my faith whilst saying all others may be right as well. Why not respect others and be peaceful for a change. I am learning to not spend my time worrying and hating and I am too blessed to do so. We all disagree with things, but respect other opinions too since you'll need that in life. Okay, have a blessed day you two, adieu.

[Miserabilia]

Oh come now, how uncouth. You don't have to become a brick wall to the myserious. I believe in aliens and my faith whilst saying all others may be right as well. Why not respect others and be peaceful for a change. I am learning to not spend my time worrying and hating and I am too blessed to do so. We all disagree with things, but respect other opinions too since you'll need that in life. Okay, have a blessed day you two, adieu.

lol
okay if you don't want to debate about it don't go to a debate thread,
seeya bby

[Stronk Serb]

Oh come now, how uncouth. You don't have to become a brick wall to the myserious. I believe in aliens and my faith whilst saying all others may be right as well. Why not respect others and be peaceful for a change. I am learning to not spend my time worrying and hating and I am too blessed to do so. We all disagree with things, but respect other opinions too since you'll need that in life. Okay, have a blessed day you two, adieu.

Have a nice day now. Bye!