Is it okay to compare the Trump administration to the Nazis?

[Stronk Serb]

Is it okay to do so? I think it is not. As a descendant of Serbs who died in the Holocaust (the mass murders did not just encompass Jews, but Slavs, gays, mentally and physically disabled, gypsies...), I think it is not.

Here is what I wrote in the previous thread.

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I feel offended by this, my family was victims of ethnic cleansing by Nazis and their Croat puppets.

Ustash soldiers barging into a school, raping a teacher in front of the children, then gutting the children and spreading their entrails around the classroom as if it were christmas decorations, seeing a boy hide, flaying his arms and putting salt at them. Is that equal to the Trump administration? I mean the Croat Ustashe government which was a client state to Italy and Germany commited so much attrocities and cases of genocide against Serbs, Jews and gypsies. The Italian authorities many times tried to prevent massacres like this because those were so horrible that Serbs who lost everything would literally go on to join the resistance and take a vow of vengeance.

Or German soldiers coming to a school in Kragujevac and shooting 350 children because a few Germans were wounded and some died during a clash with resistance forces. Is the Trump administration like that?

Did it start sending racially inferior peoples to death camps and labor camps?

Comparing that orange buffoon to Hitler and his government to the genocidal apparatus of Nazi Germany is an insult to everyone who suffered from it, died from it and fought against it.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The examples I listed were off the top of my head, those two examples are one of the most ingrained in Serb minds. I can list more brutal massacres too, but I think this is enough.

So, dear liberals, lefties and other people, the next time you call Trump the new Hitler, sit and watch a video about the Holocaust, read up on Wehrmacht, SS, Ustash, Honvéd and other massacres of mostly Slavs and Jews.

Also please keep this civil, do not turn it into a /b/ or /pol/ clusterfuck on 4chan.

[ShineintheDark]

Your offense is more related to the Holocaust which is perfectly understandable, legitimate and correct. The Holocaust was a genocide on a scale completely unseen in recent history, if not all of history and nothing that happens today can ever come close to being compared to it.

However, comparisons to Nazi Germany do not necessarily involve the Holocaust specifically because Nazi Germany was so much more than the Holocaust: it is also a great historical example of an autocratic takeover of a democracy by a Populist faction, rapidly changing its course and destiny towards one that, yes, ultimately ended in genocide and misery. I very much doubt Trumpism is on that scale but other regimes may be more fitting when pointing out comparisons of Populist or increasingly totalitarian regimes such as Erdogan in Turkey, Bashir Al-Assad in Syria and Duerte in the Phillipines. Nazism serves as a warning and signpost of how a democracy can turn and be corrupted and so, whilst the Holocaust is indeed an atrocity that cannot be compared to anything today, Nazi Germany should not be a topic that is off limits to comparison.

[Snowfox]

Your offense is more related to the Holocaust which is perfectly understandable, legitimate and correct. The Holocaust was a genocide on a scale completely unseen in recent history, if not all of history and nothing that happens today can ever come close to being compared to it.

However, comparisons to Nazi Germany do not necessarily involve the Holocaust specifically because Nazi Germany was so much more than the Holocaust: it is also a great historical example of an autocratic takeover of a democracy by a Populist faction, rapidly changing its course and destiny towards one that, yes, ultimately ended in genocide and misery. I very much doubt Trumpism is on that scale but other regimes may be more fitting when pointing out comparisons of Populist or increasingly totalitarian regimes such as Erdogan in Turkey, Bashir Al-Assad in Syria and Duerte in the Phillipines. Nazism serves as a warning and signpost of how a democracy can turn and be corrupted and so, whilst the Holocaust is indeed an atrocity that cannot be compared to anything today, Nazi Germany should not be a topic that is off limits to comparison.

Well at least in Europe Erdogan and Turkey are seen as glorious models by 100% of left wingers.
But since left wing or islamist terror is not an issue to communist shitholes like EU and Canada... It is not discussed

[Nicky47]

Its offensive to victims of holocaust offensive to who is being called it because theyve never murdered a single person nevermind a whole race and offensive to supporters to suggest theyre like the SS its extremely dramatic exasperated democratic rhetoric and in natzi Germany those people would be executed on the spot no trial

[Sailor Mars]

I think it’s unfair to compare America to Nazi Germany when we can compare America to America. It’s as if people have forgotten that America was founded on slavery, injustice, savagery, cruelty, and discrimination. We’ve hardly changed.

[PlasmaHam]

I think it’s unfair to compare America to Nazi Germany when we can compare America to America. It’s as if people have forgotten that America was founded on slavery, injustice, savagery, cruelty, and discrimination. We’ve hardly changed.
Yet for some reason millions a people a year want to come here, including groups which have been historically oppressed like Jews, Africans, Hispanics, and Asians. Why?

[lliam]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/58448185/cause.jpg

[JustHaveFun]

I don't think he is a good leader, but I really think time is better spent finding the flaws in his domestic, foreign, surveillance, financial policies/employment/getting us out our multi trillion dollar national debt. I remember when people used to call Obama the anti-christ, I think things like this take it too far and direct concerns away from their problems really lye.

[Jinglebottom]

I don't think many know about the massacre of Lidice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre), a small town in the Czech Republic during the Nazi era:
The Lidice massacre was a complete destruction of the village of Lidice, in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, now in the Czech Republic, in June 1942 on orders from Adolf Hitler and Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. In reprisal for the assassination of Reich Protector Reinhard Heydrich in the late spring of 1942, all 173 males over 15 years of age from the village were executed on 10 June 1942. Another 11 men who were not in the village were arrested and executed soon afterwards, along with several others already under arrest. The 184 women and 88 children were deported to concentration camps; a few children considered racially suitable for Germanisation were handed over to SS families and the rest were sent to the Chełmno extermination camp where they were gassed to death.

Perhaps now you'd like to visit what remains of the village and see how it has recovered from the savage Nazi attack, but wait, you can't. Because:
The village was set on fire and the remains of the buildings destroyed with explosives. All the animals in the village—pets and beasts of burden—were slaughtered as well. Even those buried in the town cemetery were not spared; their remains were dug up, looted for gold fillings and jewellery, and destroyed. A 100-strong German work party was then sent in to remove all visible remains of the village, re-route the stream running through it and the roads in and out. They then covered the entire area the village had occupied with topsoil and planted crops.
Nazi propaganda had openly, and proudly, announced the events in Lidice, unlike other massacres in occupied Europe which were kept secret.
All the people comparing Trump to Hitler should be ashamed of themselves.

[Tom_theflash]

It's just a political tactic. I've seen a lot of American politicians compared to Hitler by their detractors.
America has had some weird, sleazy politicians but none of them aspired to murder 6 million Jews and destroy 10s of millions more humans while destroying his country in the process.
It trivializes the horrors of the Nazis and the Holocaust. Whoever uses this comparison is a fool.

[lliam]

Unfortunately, this is inevitable that history trivializes. The longer a historical epoch lags behind, the less people are connected to it as individuals, even if the epoch is still fresh in the collective memory.

[ShineintheDark]

Well at least in Europe Erdogan and Turkey are seen as glorious models by 100% of left wingers.
But since left wing or islamist terror is not an issue to communist shitholes like EU and Canada... It is not discussed

I mean, the fact that I'm a left-winger and literally just called Erdogan is a Populist dictator proves you incorrect but you go off boo boo.

[Nicky47]

I think it’s unfair to compare America to Nazi Germany when we can compare America to America. It’s as if people have forgotten that America was founded on slavery, injustice, savagery, cruelty, and discrimination. We’ve hardly changed.

If we are getting technical history shows slaves came wayyyyyy after the pilgrims and if we are getting technical history shows it was actually their fellow African who captured and sold slaves to Europeans teachers today try to twist that but its a fact why? Because they needed money for their village and the whole WORLD bought slaves if your refering to native americans yes there were violent battles BUT even THEY werent the founders it was the vikings who landed and settled here first

[Sailor Mars]

Yet for some reason millions a people a year want to come here, including groups which have been historically oppressed like Jews, Africans, Hispanics, and Asians. Why?

Because compared to the towns where they come from, America is probably a lot better of a shot for them and their families and their kids. Where families are forced to pay mafias and gangs. Where they work in maquiladoras or farms or whatever dead end job for way less than a living wage. Where they’re kids are subject to seeing murder in the streets and not being able to go to school safely, if they’re able to go to school at all. Because maybe they see America as the big brother of the world, as we present ourselves as, and hope that maybe if they come here they’ll be able to pick up a steady, maybe decent job and support their family and their kids, and be able to send their kids to college, put food on the table, keep a roof above their head.

But then they come here and they’re called criminals and rapists and gang bangers, and they’re beaten up and ostracized by racists, and they can’t afford to go to hospitals because they aren’t insured and can’t pay out of pocket, and they have to continue to go work at farms because it’s the only work they know or can get hired in, and are paid less than minimum wages anyway and can’t go to the police in fear of being deported and separated from their kids.

If we are getting technical history shows slaves came wayyyyyy after the pilgrims and if we are getting technical history shows it was actually their fellow African who captured and sold slaves to Europeans teachers today try to twist that but its a fact why? Because they needed money for their village and the whole WORLD bought slaves if your refering to native americans yes there were violent battles BUT even THEY werent the founders it was the vikings who landed and settled here first

so we finna just ignore how they weren’t really battles and settlers just slaughtered most natives, took over their land and forcefully colonized them and destroyed their culture for hundreds of years, then did the same with Africans while continuing to oppress them long after the founding fathers signed a document declaring independence and “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness” for all men that are created equal... then enforced “democratic” ideals through imperialism and bullshit... and continue to oppress minorities and favor white men even today... and how tf u gon say that Vikings landed here and settled here first before... native... Americans???...

like ya hurdur Africans sold Africans into slavery hur dur but European countries ended slavery late 18th century early 19th century while America took another 70 years to pass the 13th amendment... then proceed to take another 100 years in the 1960s to actually give blacks equal rights... like we just gonna forget all that? okay fam

again, it’s unfair to compare America to nazi Germany when we can compare America to America thru all it’s horrific deeds and still horrific deeds... like I seriously don’t understand how u guys think asylum seeking families are equivalent to gang bangers, and thinks it’s justified to be tearing their kids, toddlers, fuckin babies away from them and throwing them with hundreds of other kids into fuckin detention centers like... don’t you think that’s cruel? and technically illegal according to UN law?... and don’t u think the president’s and first lady’s response to these actions is really disgusting? how can u call yourselves Americans when THESE are your ideals and THESE are your morals? that you think it’s morally okay to be tearing babies away from mothers all because they want a better life, all because they came into this country “illegally”? like wtf...

[Nicky47]

Because compared to the towns where they come from, America is probably a lot better of a shot for them and their families and their kids. Where families are forced to pay mafias and gangs. Where they work in maquiladoras or farms or whatever dead end job for way less than a living wage. Where they’re kids are subject to seeing murder in the streets and not being able to go to school safely, if they’re able to go to school at all. Because maybe they see America as the big brother of the world, as we present ourselves as, and hope that maybe if they come here they’ll be able to pick up a steady, maybe decent job and support their family and their kids, and be able to send their kids to college, put food on the table, keep a roof above their head.

But then they come here and they’re called criminals and rapists and gang bangers, and they’re beaten up and ostracized by racists, and they can’t afford to go to hospitals because they aren’t insured and can’t pay out of pocket, and they have to continue to go work at farms because it’s the only work they know or can get hired in, and are paid less than minimum wages anyway and can’t go to the police in fear of being deported and separated from their kids.



so we finna just ignore how they weren’t really battles and settlers just slaughtered most natives, took over their land and forcefully colonized them and destroyed their culture for hundreds of years, then did the same with Africans while continuing to oppress them long after the founding fathers signed a document declaring independence and “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness” for all men that are created equal... then enforced “democratic” ideals through imperialism and bullshit... and continue to oppress minorities and favor white men even today... and how tf u gon say that Vikings landed here and settled here first before... native... Americans???...

like ya hurdur Africans sold Africans into slavery hur dur but European countries ended slavery late 18th century early 19th century while America took another 70 years to pass the 13th amendment... then proceed to take another 100 years in the 1960s to actually give blacks equal rights... like we just gonna forget all that? okay fam? like wtf...

First of all im not ur fam
Second many European countries kept slaves under the title indentured servant long after us ended slavery
Third yes its a fact the norse were here before NA bones and burial sites were carbon dated to confirm they actually landed in Newfoundland first then migrated as they were known to do they left for many years then returned and found NA here and brought them to europe those dam racist Scandinavians
As for killing NAs they were killing each other long before any colonist set foot see below you must realize that was a way of life for 98% of history fight to protect or take land to furter your peoples life vikings greeks romans brits aztecs mayans Egyptians its literally only this century and last thats changed 118 years of over 50000 of man kept records


https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/thanksgiving-guilt-trip-how-warlike-were-native-americans-before-europeans-showed-up/

[Sailor Mars]

First of all im not ur fam
Second many European countries kept slaves under the title indentured servant long after us ended slavery
Third yes its a fact the norse were here before NA bones and burial sites were carbon dated to confirm they actually landed in Newfoundland first then migrated as they were known to do they left for many years then returned and found NA here and brought them to europe those dam racist Scandinavians
As for killing NAs they were killing each other long before any colonist set foot see below you must realize that was a way of life for 98% of history fight to protect or take land to furter your peoples life vikings greeks romans brits aztecs mayans Egyptians its literally only this century and last thats changed 118 years of over 50000 of man kept records


https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/thanksgiving-guilt-trip-how-warlike-were-native-americans-before-europeans-showed-up/

dam love how u knit pick everything that I said and ignore the main points :lol:

and so natives had their own wars means Europeans coming and killing off a large majority of their population through cruel and savage acts and destroying their culture is irrelevant?... that Americans aren’t hypocritical af bc of this?...

[Nicky47]

dam love how u knit pick everything that I said and ignore the main points :lol:

and so natives had their own wars means Europeans coming and killing off a large majority of their population through cruel and savage acts and destroying their culture is irrelevant?... that Americans aren’t hypocritical af bc of this?...

The christians slaughtered vikings to eradicate them for being paganistic and actually succeeded which again brings me to the main point YOU ignored conveniently:lol:


THAT WAS THE WAY OF LIFE FOR 98% of history fight to protect or take land to further your peoples life history celebrates this shrewdness and eagerness to expand empires with Byzantine greeks romans vikings yet has vilafied euros for the same desires and doing what history taught and celebrated easy for you to monday morning quarterback it all these years later but if you lived in the time period youd have acted as they did

[Sailor Mars]

The christians slaughtered vikings to eradicate them for being paganistic and actually succeeded which again brings me to the main point YOU ignored conveniently:lol:


THAT WAS THE WAY OF LIFE FOR 98% of history fight to protect or take land to further your peoples life history celebrates this shrewdness and eagerness to expand empires with Byzantine greeks romans vikings yet has vilafied euros for the same desires and doing what history taught and celebrated easy for you to monday morning quarterback it all these years later but if you lived in the time period youd have acted as they did

I don’t see how those are relevant tho bc those don’t have to do with America?... and does that make it right? Just because it was during a certain era or time period, means that slaughtering innocent people is justifiable? I don’t think so. And u act as if that type of racism and hypocrisy isn’t still relevant in today’s society

[Nicky47]

I don’t see how those are relevant tho bc those don’t have to do with America?... and does that make it right? Just because it was during a certain era or time period, means that slaughtering innocent people is justifiable? I don’t think so. And u act as if that type of racism and hypocrisy isn’t still relevant in today’s society
OF COURSE ITS RELEVANT americans ARE Europeans thats their history its what they knew there were no civil rights it was survive and grow you can only villify people that know better these people were raised a certain way taught of great dynasties of past and came here to start their own as vikings often did do you not see the hypocrisy to celebrate vikings who threw babies onto spears but villify Europeans

[Sailor Mars]

OF COURSE ITS RELEVANT americans ARE Europeans thats their history its what they knew there were no civil rights it was survive and grow you can only villify people that know better these people were raised a certain way taught of great dynasties of past and came here to start their own as vikings often did do you not see the hypocrisy to celebrate vikings who threw babies onto spears but villify Europeans

the people who founded the United States of America weren’t Vikings?... i don’t understand where you’re going with this but it’s getting a bit off topic

and of course there were rights. There were rights in every society. That’s how they knew who had power and who didn’t. Who were the working class and who were the rich. Who was oppressed and who wasn’t.

[Nicky47]

the people who founded the United States of America weren’t Vikings?... i don’t understand where you’re going with this but it’s getting a bit off topic

and of course there were rights. There were rights in every society. That’s how they knew who had power and who didn’t. Who were the working class and who were the rich. Who was oppressed and who wasn’t.

They were the first settlers and colonists though so technically yes as far as rights those rights were only designed and applied to people within their culture (This applies for most of history btw) and those outside of their belief system were viewed often as enemies for the colonists who were deeply religious i imagine meeting NA was terrifying to them

[Sailor Mars]

They were the first settlers and colonists though so technically yes as far as rights those rights were only designed and applied to people within their culture (This applies for most of history btw) and those outside of their belief system were viewed often as enemies for the colonists who were deeply religious i imagine meeting NA was terrifying to them

they weren’t the first settlers or colonists... the colonists were the English, french and Spanish who made colonies here... hence the name colonists. And i mean, I’d like to think for the native Americans having some strangers crash ur pad and ur way of life and enslave u and torture u n kill off ur family members is pretty terrifying but go off I guess

[mattsmith48]

Is it okay to do so? I think it is not. As a descendant of Serbs who died in the Holocaust (the mass murders did not just encompass Jews, but Slavs, gays, mentally and physically disabled, gypsies...), I think it is not.

Here is what I wrote in the previous thread.

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I feel offended by this, my family was victims of ethnic cleansing by Nazis and their Croat puppets.

Ustash soldiers barging into a school, raping a teacher in front of the children, then gutting the children and spreading their entrails around the classroom as if it were christmas decorations, seeing a boy hide, flaying his arms and putting salt at them. Is that equal to the Trump administration? I mean the Croat Ustashe government which was a client state to Italy and Germany commited so much attrocities and cases of genocide against Serbs, Jews and gypsies. The Italian authorities many times tried to prevent massacres like this because those were so horrible that Serbs who lost everything would literally go on to join the resistance and take a vow of vengeance.

Or German soldiers coming to a school in Kragujevac and shooting 350 children because a few Germans were wounded and some died during a clash with resistance forces. Is the Trump administration like that?

Did it start sending racially inferior peoples to death camps and labor camps?

Comparing that orange buffoon to Hitler and his government to the genocidal apparatus of Nazi Germany is an insult to everyone who suffered from it, died from it and fought against it.

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The examples I listed were off the top of my head, those two examples are one of the most ingrained in Serb minds. I can list more brutal massacres too, but I think this is enough.

So, dear liberals, lefties and other people, the next time you call Trump the new Hitler, sit and watch a video about the Holocaust, read up on Wehrmacht, SS, Ustash, Honvéd and other massacres of mostly Slavs and Jews.

Also please keep this civil, do not turn it into a /b/ or /pol/ clusterfuck on 4chan.

You what you're right, when they start rounding up Mexicans and Muslims and start mass murdering them because of where they came from or what God they pray to, it will be a fair comparison. Until then the US shall remain to the status of Banana Republic.

[Nicky47]

they weren’t the first settlers or colonists... the colonists were the English, french and Spanish who made colonies here... hence the name colonists. And i mean, I’d like to think for the native Americans having some strangers crash ur pad and ur way of life and enslave u and torture u n kill off ur family members is pretty terrifying but go off I guess

I can say it in another language if it helps THE VIKINGS WERE THE FIRST TO SETTLE AND HAVE ACOLONY HERE

[Sailor Mars]

I can say it in another language if it helps THE VIKINGS WERE THE FIRST TO SETTLE AND HAVE ACOLONY HERE

that has nothing to do with the United States of america tho, and source on that btw? send me a pm or smth, this thread is getting off topic with this discussion

[Leprous]

You what you're right, when they start rounding up Mexicans and Muslims and start mass murdering them because of where they came from or what God they pray to, it will be a fair comparison. Until then the US shall remain to the status of Banana Republic.

The fact that you actually believe the US will murder these people is beyond me.

First of all, while I don't think it's okay to seperate the children from their parents they are still entering the country illegaly. Entering a country without papers doesn't mean you're suddenly allowed to be there. It's the law.

Also, I'm not sure what's causing you to think like this. Either you just have an extreme distrust for humanity assuming they'll go out and murder people in the US because of their race. I'm just curious, what is it that makes you think that this will happen?

[bunnyhabit]

only difference is desire to eliminate black and brown people vs, jewish people

You what you're right, when they start rounding up Mexicans and Muslims and start mass murdering them because of where they came from or what God they pray to, it will be a fair comparison. Until then the US shall remain to the status of Banana Republic.


you forgot about black people they kill every day. but i agree with everything you said

Double posts merged.

[ShineintheDark]

I can say it in another language if it helps THE VIKINGS WERE THE FIRST TO SETTLE AND HAVE ACOLONY HERE
I mean, I'd give that credit to the Homo sapiens of around 10,000 BC that crossed the land bridge between Russia and Alaska and spread around the entirety of the continent before Europeans even became European but, if it makes you feel better, Vikings were the first to land on the continent by boat yes. However, very few chose to remain in the continent and even then, they landed in Newfoundland so therefore cannot really be credited with 'discovering' much beyond 'Vineland' for a short stretch of time. Human beings have lived on the continent of the Americas since the birth of humanity and, whilst, yes, the modern NA groups may not predate Viking colonies in Canada, human populations lived there long before, during and long after Vikings landed on their shores.

But all of this is off-topic of the main discussion around the legitimacy of Nazi parallels.

[Jinglebottom]

Useless and off-topic posts have been deleted. Please stay on topic.

[mattsmith48]

The fact that you actually believe the US will murder these people is beyond me.

First of all, while I don't think it's okay to seperate the children from their parents they are still entering the country illegaly. Entering a country without papers doesn't mean you're suddenly allowed to be there. It's the law.

Also, I'm not sure what's causing you to think like this. Either you just have an extreme distrust for humanity assuming they'll go out and murder people in the US because of their race. I'm just curious, what is it that makes you think that this will happen?

This is the country who as been bombing almost every single Muslim country for no reason for the past 20 years. And this is the party that purposely poisoned black people in Michigan, that openly tries to kill millions of poor people with their health care plan, are against any kind of regulation and environmental restriction, and have no shame in hurting people as long giant corporations can make money from it. Add to that this same party being overtaken by white supremacists, and the extreme partisanship that lead to the election of a sexual predator as president and almost lead Alabama to elect a child molester over a centre-right politician.

That and more shows that country is on a dangerous path and when looking at what is happening and what the US have been doing even going back to when Obama and even Bush were president, they're reasons to think they could get to that point especially if they found a way to make a profit out of it.

you forgot about black people they kill every day. but i agree with everything you said


The US government shouldn't kill black people, that's a job for the police. (Thats a joke btw, they are a few people here who take things to seriously so I prefer to say it now)

[Max the Disenchanter]

Trump is the definition of fascism

[Leprous]

This is the country who as been bombing almost every single Muslim country for no reason for the past 20 years. And this is the party that purposely poisoned black people in Michigan, that openly tries to kill millions of poor people with their health care plan, are against any kind of regulation and environmental restriction, and have no shame in hurting people as long giant corporations can make money from it. Add to that this same party being overtaken by white supremacists, and the extreme partisanship that lead to the election of a sexual predator as president and almost lead Alabama to elect a child molester over a centre-right politician.

Ah yes I'm sure the republicans are changing the health care plan for the single purpose of killing poor people.

That and more shows that country is on a dangerous path and when looking at what is happening and what the US have been doing even going back to when Obama and even Bush were president, they're reasons to think they could get to that point especially if they found a way to make a profit out of it.

I truly wonder how much distrust in the human race must lead you to believing this. The US is detaining people who are breaking the law, as they should. That does not mean they are suddenly going to go full ethnic cleansing on the Mexicans. I hope you realise how ridiculous your theory sounds. People shouldn't enter a country illegally, I feel like you still fail to grasp the concept of borders.

[Stronk Serb]

I don't think many know about the massacre of Lidice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre), a small town in the Czech Republic during the Nazi era:


Perhaps now you'd like to visit what remains of the village and see how it has recovered from the savage Nazi attack, but wait, you can't. Because:


All the people comparing Trump to Hitler should be ashamed of themselves.

Yes, I remember Lidice from a paper I did on resistance to Nazi occupations. Some Serb villages met the same fate. Also there was that SS division (forgot which number) named "Dirlewanger" which was lead by a child rapist and psycopath. The Einsatzgruppen burned and slaughtered many villages and towns in the east.

You what you're right, when they start rounding up Mexicans and Muslims and start mass murdering them because of where they came from or what God they pray to, it will be a fair comparison. Until then the US shall remain to the status of Banana Republic.

Except they will never start doing it in the foreseeable future. They can get away with bombing shit because "muh freedumb", but with murder and mass extermination... Hardly. Genocides have this nasty tendency of being noticed.

[mattsmith48]

Ah yes I'm sure the republicans are changing the health care plan for the single purpose of killing poor people.

Should've phrase that better, they openly support a health care plan knowing it would kill millions of people.

I truly wonder how much distrust in the human race must lead you to believing this. The US is detaining people who are breaking the law, as they should. That does not mean they are suddenly going to go full ethnic cleansing on the Mexicans. I hope you realise how ridiculous your theory sounds. People shouldn't enter a country illegally, I feel like you still fail to grasp the concept of borders.

Instead of punishing and demonizing those people who just want a better life for themselves and their family you should look at why do they think illegally crossing the border gives them a better chance of staying then if they applied for asylum when crossing legally.

[Leprous]

Instead of punishing and demonizing those people who just want a better life for themselves and their family you should look at why do they think illegally crossing the border gives them a better chance of staying then if they applied for asylum when crossing legally.

Actually this is not true. Because if they cross illegally they get rounded up and locked up like what is happening now. How is that better than waiting to enter a country legally and not being arrested?

[Stronk Serb]

Trump is the definition of fascism

How? Explain to me please. My grandparents lived under fascism, so I have a pretty clear idea of what living under it is.

[Jinglebottom]

Instead of punishing and demonizing those people who just want a better life for themselves and their family you should look at why do they think illegally crossing the border gives them a better chance of staying then if they applied for asylum when crossing legally.
While you may have a point, developed countries cannot be the world's good samaritans all the time. They have laws and borders to enforce. Would you have the same stance if hundreds of thousands of people from Central and South America, from Mexico to Paraguay, decided to cross the border into America for a better life? Even if these people spoke no word of English? Do you really think it's sustainable for countries to take in basically anyone who knocks on their door?

[HeyCameron]

While you may have a point, developed countries cannot be the world's good samaritans all the time. They have laws and borders to enforce. Would you have the same stance if hundreds of thousands of people from Central and South America, from Mexico to Paraguay, decided to cross the border into America for a better life? Even if these people spoke no word of English? Do you really think it's sustainable for countries to take in basically anyone who knocks on their door?

That's, I think, a key question and a tough one to answer. Should every developed nation just take in everyone who wants a "better life" in a less-developed nation? Let's face it, I'm sure a great percentage of people in the world want a better life. But we can't just usher them all in to the few highly-developed countries. And is it really a better life if those immigrants end up in ghettos and gangs when they come here? Obviously not all do, I'm just saying that it doesn't always work out. We can only take in so many people.

And it just bugs me that other countries seem to be saying "it's impossible for us to fix our problems, so we just need to all come to Europe/America". Is it really impossible for poor or violent countries to change? I hate to think that it is.

[Nicky47]

That's, I think, a key question and a tough one to answer. Should every developed nation just take in everyone who wants a "better life" in a less-developed nation? Let's face it, I'm sure a great percentage of people in the world want a better life. But we can't just usher them all in to the few highly-developed countries. And is it really a better life if those immigrants end up in ghettos and gangs when they come here? Obviously not all do, I'm just saying that it doesn't always work out. We can only take in so many people.

And it just bugs me that other countries seem to be saying "it's impossible for us to fix our problems, so we just need to all come to Europe/America". Is it really impossible for poor or violent countries to change? I hate to think that it is.
You just summarized my entire belief system thank you

[mattsmith48]

Actually this is not true. Because if they cross illegally they get rounded up and locked up like what is happening now. How is that better than waiting to enter a country legally and not being arrested?

Well from what I understand from US laws when they are arrested they get a trial where they can apply for asylum. Which is probably why Trump just wants to dump them back into Mexico as soon as they are caught.

While you may have a point, developed countries cannot be the world's good samaritans all the time. They have laws and borders to enforce. Would you have the same stance if hundreds of thousands of people from Central and South America, from Mexico to Paraguay, decided to cross the border into America for a better life? Even if these people spoke no word of English? Do you really think it's sustainable for countries to take in basically anyone who knocks on their door?

That's, I think, a key question and a tough one to answer. Should every developed nation just take in everyone who wants a "better life" in a less-developed nation? Let's face it, I'm sure a great percentage of people in the world want a better life. But we can't just usher them all in to the few highly-developed countries. And is it really a better life if those immigrants end up in ghettos and gangs when they come here? Obviously not all do, I'm just saying that it doesn't always work out. We can only take in so many people.

And it just bugs me that other countries seem to be saying "it's impossible for us to fix our problems, so we just need to all come to Europe/America". Is it really impossible for poor or violent countries to change? I hate to think that it is.

It is the developed world's responsibility as human being to help those people.

[PlasmaHam]

It is the developed world's responsibility as human being to help those people.
Mind actually addressing the posts you quoted by explaining how exactly that would work out, instead of side-stepping the issue and preaching about supposed "moral responsibility"?

[Jinglebottom]

It is the developed world's responsibility as human being to help those people.
Yes, but you should focus on helping those people's countries so that they can improve their living standards. If a country is not an active war zone, you are under no moral obligation to welcome illegal immigrants to your country. Otherwise it's just taking advantage of your kindness while offering nothing in return.

I live in a country that is (apparently) a fair bit more dangerous and unstable than most Latin American countries. Also, our neighbor to the north and east is currently home to the bloodiest conflict of the XXI century, and spillovers of violence were a regular occurrence from 2011 to 2017. We had our own civil conflicts in 2005, 2007 and 2008 with bombs and attacks going off in many major cities. We were also involved in a mini war with our southern neighbor in 2006 which left over 1,000 dead and destroyed the infrastructure in most of the country. So, tell me, how bad do Mexico and Guatemala (to name a few) have it that they have to storm the American border for a "better life"? Why didn't the whole of Lebanon illegally mass emigrate to Europe during troubles? We are only separated by a bit of water. And apparently they owe us a better life. Is war being waged in Central America? If not, they have no excuse. Plain and simple. I still remember our windows and exterior facade of our house getting blown out by bombs when I was a little kid. I also remember hiding in parking lots for weeks because the city was getting bombed and shelled. But where are all the illegal Lebs in Europe?? As far as I know, we don't try to storm borders. And we have been through far worse than them.

[lliam]

Not really. First and foremost, each country is responsible for its own benefit.

But if you want to argue further on this basis, open a thread with the appropriate topic. I would discuss the topic "Globalization, Capitalism vs
Global Social Responsibility "or similar topics, and under this label such and many more things can be discussed.

But not such arguments you saved from your thread.

Not even the (social) responsibility of western countries in a global context should be discussed in any way. Same goes for the Vikings, the Mayflower folk, settlers and such other people ... all they should be left unmentioned. They are completely irrelevant to the theme of the thread.


It's just about the Administration Trump, the politics of the Nazis and whether there are adequately discussable parallels.

[Stronk Serb]

It is the developed world's responsibility as human being to help those people.

Each country first and foremost has the obligation to uphold and work for the best interests of it's citizens. Immigrants are guests. They have to come and obey house rules if they are let in. Letting massive amounts of immigrants with little to no checks can endanger the jobs of the natives and their safety, so no. Countries do not have an obligation to help those in need.

[Max the Disenchanter]

Each country first and foremost has the obligation to uphold and work for the best interests of it's citizens. Immigrants are guests. They have to come and obey house rules if they are let in. Letting massive amounts of immigrants with little to no checks can endanger the jobs of the natives and their safety, so no. Countries do not have an obligation to help those in need.

Actually, immigrants - documented and undocumented - enjoy the same rights as citizens under the U.S. Constitution. And statically speaking, immigrants commit less crime than their native counterparts in the U.S. Trump's immigration policy is strictly driven by the racist and xenophobic feelings echoed by the Republican base.

[Stronk Serb]

Actually, immigrants - documented and undocumented - enjoy the same rights as citizens under the U.S. Constitution. And statically speaking, immigrants commit less crime than their native counterparts in the U.S. Trump's immigration policy is strictly driven by the racist and xenophobic feelings echoed by the Republican base.

If the US does what mattsmith48 proposes, the US will have the same if not worse problems than Germany and Sweden during this migrant crisis. Rapists, thieves and killers will literally get inside. Also if they do not do so much crime, why do Hispanics have a larger incarceration rate than domestic whites?

[Max the Disenchanter]

If the US does what mattsmith48 proposes, the US will have the same if not worse problems than Germany and Sweden during this migrant crisis. Rapists, thieves and killers will literally get inside. Also if they do not do so much crime, why do Hispanics have a larger incarceration rate than domestic whites?

incarceration rates? cops deliberately target disenfranchised minorities in the united states, e.g., african-american and hispanics. it's been like that forever in the US. Link:http://www.businessinsider.com/study-finds-huge-racial-disparity-in-americas-prisons-2016-6#incarceration-ratio-for-hispanics-versus-whites-by-state-2

crime is actually down 10% in germany. This link breaks it down: https://www.dw.com/en/crime-in-germany-drops-10-percent-in-2017-report-shows/a-43485926

[lliam]

crime is actually down 10% in germany. This link breaks it down: https://www.dw.com/en/crime-in-germany-drops-10-percent-in-2017-report-shows/a-43485926


Don't be too impressed. Often it's just because thousands of and thousands crime cases are freezed so the authorities are hardly work on it. Be it for a lack of staff or because there are too many cases, that's why they don't appear in current statistics.

[Nicky47]

Actually, immigrants - documented and undocumented - enjoy the same rights as citizens under the U.S. Constitution. And statically speaking, immigrants commit less crime than their native counterparts in the U.S. Trump's immigration policy is strictly driven by the racist and xenophobic feelings echoed by the Republican base.

Well considering my state has a prison population majority mexican drug of violent crime cartel related ill venture to say your ideology there is wrong but again nice try78 % In prison are illegally here according to my research thats not racist its fact

[Max the Disenchanter]

Don't be too impressed. Often it's just because thousands of and thousands crime cases are freezed so the authorities are hardly work on it. Be it for a lack of staff or because there are too many cases, that's why they don't appear in current statistics.

Source please?

Well considering my state has a prison population majority mexican drug of violent crime cartel related ill venture to say your ideology there is wrong but again nice try

Ideology? You mean facts? Your personal experience or perspective isn't admissible.

Double posts merged. ~Jinglebottom

[Leprous]

Actually, immigrants - documented and undocumented - enjoy the same rights as citizens under the U.S. Constitution. And statically speaking, immigrants commit less crime than their native counterparts in the U.S. Trump's immigration policy is strictly driven by the racist and xenophobic feelings echoed by the Republican base.

I'm not saying I'm doubting the statistic, but I would like a source. Are we speaking raw numbers or percentages relative to the population group?

[mattsmith48]

Jinglebottom like I said in the post before: instead of demonizing and punishing those people they should try to figure out why do they think they stand a better chance at staying by illegally crossing the border than legally.

As to why they left their country that's easy, countries in the Central and South America have some of the highest murder rates in the world, because of the drug cartel and drug wars, which btw was imported there by the US, its pretty obvious why people would want to leave that or not feel safe there.

Don't be too impressed. Often it's just because thousands of and thousands crime cases are freezed so the authorities are hardly work on it. Be it for a lack of staff or because there are too many cases, that's why they don't appear in current statistics.

Since when does it matter if they find who did it? No matter if they find the person or not its still a crime

[PlasmaHam]

Actually, immigrants - documented and undocumented - enjoy the same rights as citizens under the U.S. Constitution.
I think you are confused. Sure, besides voting and a few other minor things they essentially possess the same rights as citizenry. But there is no "right to live in America" in the Constitution. It is a privilege that you must earn. And if people are caught in the country illegally, or if they are caught border crossing, then they have committed an illegal act and the government has a right to detain them.


incarceration rates? cops deliberately target disenfranchised minorities in the united states, e.g., african-american and hispanics. it's been like that forever in the US. Link:http://www.businessinsider.com/study-finds-huge-racial-disparity-in-americas-prisons-2016-6#incarceration-ratio-for-hispanics-versus-whites-by-state-2
That link simply says there is a higher incarceration rate, which there is. You have provided nothing to say that the higher rate is due to racial targeting, instead of that blacks and Hispanics simply commit more crimes.


like I said in the post before: instead of demonizing and punishing those people they should try to figure out why do they think they stand a better chance at staying by illegally crossing the border than legally. Pretty obvious why. It's because legal immigration is a limited earned privilege that requires time and effort to achieve. Illegal immigration, though riskier in some respects, is an easier approach to it, especially when there is a low chance of deportation once you are in.


Though here is a question. Would you be willing to support a law that increased the amount of legal immigrants allowed from these Central and South American countries, in exchange for stricter immigration security and enforcement? I see this as reasonable, how about you?

[Max the Disenchanter]

That link simply says there is a higher incarceration rate, which there is. You have provided nothing to say that the higher rate is due to racial targeting, instead of that blacks and Hispanics simply commit more crimes.

The article literally states:


"The study cites three major reasons for the disparity: policies and practices such as harsh sentences for drug-related crimes that disproportionately affect African-Americans; implicit racial biases that affect judges; and structural disadvantages that affect African-Americans before they enter the criminal-justice system."

If you're interested, I'm sure you can find a copy of the study or other studies that come to the same conclusion.

Link: https://www.vera.org/newsroom/press-releases/research-confirms-that-entrenched-racism-manifests-in-disparate-treatment-of-black-americans-in-criminal-justice-system

All the people comparing Trump to Hitler should be ashamed of themselves.

He uses the same tactics as Hitler.

Double posts merged. ~Jinglebottom

[Nicky47]

Ideology? You mean facts? Your personal experience or perspective isn't admissible.

How is personal experience not admissable????? Thats the definition of a fact who the hell are you to tell me what i live around isnt reality????? Especially from your cush northern hideout

[Leprous]

He uses the same tactics as Hitler.

Ah yes I am sure he's murdering entire races, sexualities and religions. Also I'm sure he's entering other countries with tanks.


As mentioned before, by even remotely comparing Trump to Hitler you are actually making what Hitler did seem much less bad than it is. Please come up with actual arguments instead of always using the "huh but Trump is bad" excuse. If you can show us proof of the claims you are making (for example the one I quoted you about but you never replied to), then people will take you serious.

[Jinglebottom]

He uses the same tactics as Hitler.
Obviously you did not even read my post except for that sentence.

[HeyCameron]

Other than populist tendencies (which other presidents have had too), I don't think there are any significant similarities and I don't think the anti-Trump crowd does themselves any favors by comparing the two. I'm not a Trump supporter, but I don't think he's freakin' Hitler. That just shows a lack of understanding of history and an insensitivity to the real horrors of what Hitler did. But it seems like everyone loves being hyperbolic in modern politics. Anyone who's left of GWB is "socialist", anyone who's right of Obama is "fascist". People throw around terms like and comparisons to historical figures without really understanding them.

[lliam]

Source please?

my trusted source was my dad, who mentioned it lately.

but I picked this three sources as an example about different news who kinda lead to my dad's statement.


http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/kriminalstatistik-die-grosse-mogelpackung-a-763861.html

https://www.tichyseinblick.de/meinungen/kriminalstatistik-fuer-2017-teil-1-vertrauensverlust-in-den-staat/

https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/landespolitik/geldwaesche-kriminalitaet-zoll-100.html




Since when does it matter if they find who did it? No matter if they find the person or not its still a crime


It matters, because of justice delays which remain unconsidered to crime statistics ...

... for example, about 33000 non-processed references to money laundering in general, 55000 unprocessed criminal cases just in Berlin ... not to mention all other German cities in sum.

... all that facts don't appear in the statistics of German crime cases, why the statistics can't lead to a real statement about how high the decline in the crime rate since 1992 is real.

[Stronk Serb]

He uses the same tactics as Hitler.

You take that back, I have ancestors who died in the Holocaust amd who fought against the Nazis. The two are not alike. Trump is not even like Hitler in his early days. Both used the plane to get to places fast and both flip-flopped how Germany/America needs to change. Guess what? Many politicians did that before Trump but were not like Hitler.

Trump did not set the House of Representatives on fire, like Hitler (allegedly) did with the Reichstag.

Trump did not suspend the Constitution indefinitely.

Trump did not make a certain minority second-class citizens purely based on their racial and religious background.

Trump did not start sending said minority into collection and labor camps that later turned into extermination camps.

Trump did not push for claims from neighboring countries.

Trump did not start the most destructive war mankind has ever seen and fought it until the bitter end when the enemy was literally a few hundred meters from his bunker.

Trump and his administration did not commit the largest case of ethnic cleansing and genocide that changed the demographics of some countries forever.

[Max the Disenchanter]

You take that back, I have ancestors who died in the Holocaust amd who fought against the Nazis. The two are not alike. Trump is not even like Hitler in his early days. Both used the plane to get to places fast and both flip-flopped how Germany/America needs to change. Guess what? Many politicians did that before Trump but were not like Hitler.

Trump did not set the House of Representatives on fire, like Hitler (allegedly) did with the Reichstag.

Trump did not suspend the Constitution indefinitely.

Trump did not make a certain minority second-class citizens purely based on their racial and religious background.

Trump did not start sending said minority into collection and labor camps that later turned into extermination camps.

Trump did not push for claims from neighboring countries.

Trump did not start the most destructive war mankind has ever seen and fought it until the bitter end when the enemy was literally a few hundred meters from his bunker.

Trump and his administration did not commit the largest case of ethnic cleansing and genocide that changed the demographics of some countries forever.

Okay... duh... no one is saying that Trump is literally Hitler.

The reason people compare Trump to Hitler (which is an easy go-to dictator to remember) or any other autocrat is because he behaves just like one: he uses a minority class (Muslims , African-Americans, and Hispanics) to pin poor people against each other in order to push forward an agenda that enriches him and his cronies while screwing over the same poor people that voted for him. He's already split families apart with no plan to reunite them. If people didn't complain, if the free press didn't have 1st Amendment protections, then who the hell knows what Sessions and his ilk would do to these poor families. If our country's democratic institutions weren't in place, he'd likely pursue a similarly evil trajectory. These democratic institutions are being tested and eroded almost every day.

Also, completely unrelated... aren't you too old for these forums? You're like, 20 years old... Time to move on?

[Uniquemind]

I think what max is trying to say, is that Trump uses similar emotional-appeal on various media’s so as to draw power from his citizenry.

It’s an appeal to heuristics that human nature and the brain does so as to create beliefs and cognitions that sometimes are false but easy to create because people don’t like thinking hard.


The vernacular phase is “people don’t like doing their Homework” and you’ll find this in both fringe emotionally riled up people in all political parties. Also religion too, because religion isn’t really based in logic because of infrequent miracles that go against logic.






On one side you have a group of people who conflate morality with compliance Vs non-compliance with the legal model of law.

But on the other side you have another group of people who use immediate understanding of what humans need for happy social and physically healthy development and whose needs aren’t met because of violence equal to a war zone in their own countries.


The trump’s supporters position by default makes them look bad but the answer is not to double-down, it’s to think creatively and address the real issues of why people are flooding into the country in the first place. The parental-guardian and child separation fiasco is a Related but separate issue because you can detain but not separate and create that trauma in the children.

To a child, under that kind of psychological distress and heartlessness, that’s how you create a sociopath, and once created then this side will argue that oh look this race is more violent than other native races...(which isn’t true)

Asylum laws also can’t be ignored that’s by itself an illegal move.



Let me also add that on the N.Korea issue satillite evidence suggests they are not keeping their word that denuclearization is beginning and that they aren’t a threat.

He’s a bad manager and let’s not forget he bankrupted 3 casinos and places them in the same town in Atlanta....who fails at understanding the law of supply and demand like that in economics?

[Stronk Serb]

Okay... duh... no one is saying that Trump is literally Hitler.

The reason people compare Trump to Hitler (which is an easy go-to dictator to remember) or any other autocrat is because he behaves just like one: he uses a minority class (Muslims , African-Americans, and Hispanics) to pin poor people against each other in order to push forward an agenda that enriches him and his cronies while screwing over the same poor people that voted for him. He's already split families apart with no plan to reunite them. If people didn't complain, if the free press didn't have 1st Amendment protections, then who the hell knows what Sessions and his ilk would do to these poor families. If our country's democratic institutions weren't in place, he'd likely pursue a similarly evil trajectory. These democratic institutions are being tested and eroded almost every day.

Also, completely unrelated... aren't you too old for these forums? You're like, 20 years old... Time to move on?

Also on racial bias and tensions, it is not a thing unique to the Trump administration. Administrations before him had that same problem too. Still, if there are cases where it truly was racially motivated that went unpunished, I blame him for not trying to fix it. I say cases like that because I in general tend not to believe US media. It has become a propaganda tool for pushing political agenda.

Also many police killings could have been prevented if the suspect co-operated with the police, like for example following what they said and not running away.

Also every government will divide it's citizens in a time of peace to keep themselves in power by having a prefered minority (economic, national, religious, politically aligned) which will get them enough votes to keep them in power.

[mattsmith48]

Though here is a question. Would you be willing to support a law that increased the amount of legal immigrants allowed from these Central and South American countries, in exchange for stricter immigration security and enforcement? I see this as reasonable, how about you?

It would depend what security and enforcement were talking about, but yes that is reasonable and how things work in a real democracy where everyone works together.

[bunnyhabit]

The US government shouldn't kill black people, that's a job for the police. (Thats a joke btw, they are a few people here who take things to seriously so I prefer to say it now)
police (Gestapo) are a component of the government, of course surely not privately funded

[Leprous]

police (Gestapo) are a component of the government, of course surely not privately funded

So you are comparing the gestapo to the US police? I hope you are not being serious.

[Stronk Serb]

The US government shouldn't kill black people, that's a job for the police. (Thats a joke btw, they are a few people here who take things to seriously so I prefer to say it now)
police (Gestapo) are a component of the government, of course surely not privately funded

Compraing the US police to Gestapo is the same like comparing the Chinese police (Republic of China) to the Japanese Kempeitai (Japanese WWII military police, responsible for massacring Chinese civilians).