Why has the Left become anti-patriotism

[PlasmaHam]

I know for years and years there has been arguments between the Left and the Right over which side is more patriotic. But ever since Trump won the 2016 election, the Left seemed to have admitted that they are no longer patriotic. I mean, when was the last time you've seen a prominent Liberal figure actively displaying the American flag? Or when was the last time you've seen a prominent Liberal saying we need to put American interests first? A few years ago those were shared values between the Left and the Right, yet now they aren't. In fact, there are many notable liberals advocating the opposite. Why is that? Is it over-reacting in the wake of Trump's patriotism-invoked administration, or is the Left finally showing it's true colors?

Note, I am not accusing anyone here of being anti-patriotic. I know there are very patriotic Liberals, and anti-patriotic conservatives. This is just about an overall trend I and others have noticed.

[Spooky_Eli]

the liberal establishment is finally admitting there globalistic agenda, it's always been there in the shadows but as more average liberals came round to the idea thay began to feel more confident about freely expressing it.

[Snowfox]

They are showing their true colours yes

[mattsmith48]

I know for years and years there has been arguments between the Left and the Right over which side is more patriotic. But ever since Trump won the 2016 election, the Left seemed to have admitted that they are no longer patriotic. I mean, when was the last time you've seen a prominent Liberal figure actively displaying the American flag? Or when was the last time you've seen a prominent Liberal saying we need to put American interests first? A few years ago those were shared values between the Left and the Right, yet now they aren't. In fact, there are many notable liberals advocating the opposite. Why is that? Is it over-reacting in the wake of Trump's patriotism-invoked administration, or is the Left finally showing it's true colors?

Note, I am not accusing anyone here of being anti-patriotic. I know there are very patriotic Liberals, and anti-patriotic conservatives. This is just about an overall trend I and others have noticed.

Im not living there so I can't say for sure, but from what I ear and read, I don't really see a difference. Mind giving some example of what you mean?

[Dalcourt]

For me you don't need to wave a flag and screaming America first to show your love for your country.
It's more important to see what the country really is today and work towards giving it and it's citizens a future.

The biggest problem I see that a lot of conservatives turn patriotism into senseless nationalism. So being patriotic got a bitter taste due to those people who seem to have so many issues with changing times. They turned patriotism into clinging to old long gone days.

I feel democrats don't show the flag or whatever not because they don't love their country but because they want to distance themselves from those nationalistic tendencies.

I cannot speak for others of course that's just my impression from what I see here.
Like for example I know of a couple of people in French Quarter who always had the the US flag outside their house. After Trump made this fuss about football players not respecting the flag they removed the flag. I happend to ask one guy who is a neighbor of my grandma why he did so. He said he didn't understand the fuss conservatives made. The flag isn't sacred and people are still more important than flags.
They had the flag since they bought that house...so guess they always were proud of it.

Just one story but one that backed my theory for me.

[lliam]

I can't speak for America, but as far as I can see it in other countries I visited once, left-wingers are as patriotic as the those on the right wing.

Personally, people who celebrate patriotism are fundamentally suspect to me, because for me patriotism is only the precursor to nationalism.

[Spooky_Eli]

I can't speak for America, but as far as I can see it in other countries I visited once, left-wingers are as patriotic as the those on the right wing.

Personally, people who celebrate patriotism are fundamentally suspect to me, because for me patriotism is only the precursor to nationalism.and whats wrong with nationalism?

[ShineintheDark]

As said above, the Left and Right are equally patriotic. Patriotism is love of your country: I love my country, as does majority of the people on the left. After all, it's why we're so determined to push it along the right path. The issue with your statement comes from how you perceive patriotism. Waving the flag and saying 'fuck yeah 'Murica!' isn't the only form of patriotism. The doctor you see working day and night to look after their local community is a patriot. The schoolteacher you see staying hours after school ends to make sure their students get a proper and useful education is a patriot. The policeman and firefighters you see rushing past you to save the most vulnerable and needy member of our society are patriots. The form of 'patriotism' you see as legitimate is a ploy by conservative groups in many countries, not just the US, to seem like THEY love the country more and THEY are the only ones who really care. It's a reaction to conservative obsession with optics that have forced the left to reject those outward shows of patriotism in favour of just doing their jobs. I can tell you now, the people who plaster their flags on their social medias and all over their houses tend to be the far-right nutjobs that I mostly want to avoid: if you truly love your country, you don't need to remind everyone every single day in the most obvious ways that you do.

[lliam]

and whats wrong with nationalism?

To me it's simply synonymous for exclusion.

[Sailor Mars]

Like it’s been said previously, you don’t have to wave the flag and drink coors light and be like “fuck ya Murica!” To be a patriot. Patriotism is love for your country. However, liberals and most left leaning people do not support the decisions their government makes, and want to distance themselves from those conservative ideals of legislation and the nationalist/nativist tendencies of those typically portrayed as patriot. I love America, I call myself a patriot, but I’m left leaning in many of my views. Just because I love America doesn’t mean I support the people in power and what they’re making of this country.

[Stronk Serb]

The left scene her is anti-patriotic. You have die-hard commies who are the exception, but what the left wants here is extremely detrimental to Serbia.

[Snowfox]

Same here. Stronk Serb
Left wing in europistan means that you are pro islamist communist. Like Angela Merkel who is Islamist commie or Macron who openly supports ISIS and who is commie. Just to name few.
Patriot wants what is good for his country and his nation and that is only yardstick they have. Left generally wants to get rid of countries and nations and to form one world government.

[ShineintheDark]

Same here. Stronk Serb
Left wing in europistan means that you are pro islamist communist.
There are multiple different ideologies within leftist philosophy, from socialism, syndicalism, communism, social democracy etc. Your fixation on communism in particular shows that you have not the slightest idea of nuance or political knowledge but are simply someone who regurgitates far-right headlines and talking points.
On a side note, your equal fixation on the suffix 'istan' is equally stupid. Of all the Islamic nations in the world, only Pakistan and Afghanistan actually have that suffix. That itself is nothing to do with Islam but instead that 'stan' means 'land' in Persian, the language of the original inhabitants of that region. Once again, this is something weirdly common in right-wing circles and proves nothing positive about your collective nuance.
Like Angela Merkel who is Islamist commie or Macron who openly supports ISIS and who is commie. Just to name few.
Citation needed. Also, see above point for the 'commie' labels.

Patriot wants what is good for his country and his nation and that is only yardstick they have. Left generally wants to get rid of countries and nations and to form one world government.
Your idea that only far-right thugs care for their nation is asinine. Most, if not all major political groups in all nations care deeply about their country and so wish to see it improved. Groups that wish for that country's destruction do not form political parties nor run for office: those who do clearly have ideas to implement that would better their country in their view. Even if that is not YOUR view, it does not take away that they believe that they are improving their nation and therefore are patriotic.
Furthermore, this whole idea of 'far left globalist agenda' is completely beneath even you, a literal child. There is no major political party in any nation of the world that pushes for a single unified world government. The UN respects individual nations; the EU respects individual nations; the Pan-African Union respects individual nations. In fact, anyone who realistically attempts to dissolve all national borders and form a singular international state would never find themselves in power as national identities are too strong, whether on the left or the right. This idea of an overarching Illuminati-esque society infiltrating the upper echelons of government to destroy your national identity has little to do with left/right politics and more to do with the crackpots (and often, very anti-Semitic) ramblings of conspiracy theorists.

[Snowfox]

There are multiple different ideologies within leftist philosophy, from socialism, syndicalism, communism, social democracy etc. Your fixation on communism in particular shows that you have not the slightest idea of nuance or political knowledge but are simply someone who regurgitates far-right headlines and talking points.
On a side note, your equal fixation on the suffix 'istan' is equally stupid. Of all the Islamic nations in the world, only Pakistan and Afghanistan actually have that suffix. That itself is nothing to do with Islam but instead that 'stan' means 'land' in Persian, the language of the original inhabitants of that region. Once again, this is something weirdly common in right-wing circles and proves nothing positive about your collective nuance.

Citation needed. Also, see above point for the 'commie' labels.


Your idea that only far-right thugs care for their nation is asinine. Most, if not all major political groups in all nations care deeply about their country and so wish to see it improved. Groups that wish for that country's destruction do not form political parties nor run for office: those who do clearly have ideas to implement that would better their country in their view. Even if that is not YOUR view, it does not take away that they believe that they are improving their nation and therefore are patriotic.
Furthermore, this whole idea of 'far left globalist agenda' is completely beneath even you, a literal child. There is no major political party in any nation of the world that pushes for a single unified world government. The UN respects individual nations; the EU respects individual nations; the Pan-African Union respects individual nations. In fact, anyone who realistically attempts to dissolve all national borders and form a singular international state would never find themselves in power as national identities are too strong, whether on the left or the right. This idea of an overarching Illuminati-esque society infiltrating the upper echelons of government to destroy your national identity has little to do with left/right politics and more to do with the crackpots (and often, very anti-Semitic) ramblings of conspiracy theorists.

So you say that Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan and Tadzikistan and Kyrgyzstan do not exist?

Communist ideology is based on internationalism which in turn means one world government.
Merkel is communist she has always been one since DDR.
Upper echelons of society are infiltrated by communists since false collapse of Soviet Union.
You see Soviet Union never ceased to exist it just conquered all europe and is nowadays called EU

[Spooky_Eli]

Communist ideology is based on internationalism which in turn means one world government.

it is also based upon Marxism


Upper echelons of society are infiltrated by communists since false collapse of Soviet Union.
You see Soviet Union never ceased to exist it just conquered all europe and is nowadays called EU
THIS is a conspiracy theory with no real evidence.

[ShineintheDark]

So you say that Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan and Tadzikistan and Kyrgyzstan do not exist?
I'm sorry for missing those nations but it doesn't demean the fact that they come from Persian words rather than something strictly Islamic in nature. After all, Malaysia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Morocco, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain and the UAE also exist (hint hint, none of them have 'istan' in their names because they were never Persian.)


Communist ideology is based on internationalism which in turn means one world government.
Marxism, Leninism and Trotskyism heavily support the idea of international revolution, that's true. However, a lot of communist ideologies alone do not, such as Stalinism. Furthermore, communism itself is an ideology that predates Marx: Marx and Engels were only the scribes of the wider communist party in Britain which had its roots in the French Revolution. Furthermore, as said before there are countless forms of leftist ideology that have little to do with the work of Marx and Engels.

Merkel is communist she has always been one since DDR.
I asked for a citation. Your restating of the original theory is not a citation.

[lliam]

Like Angela Merkel who is Islamist commie or


Of course, Merkel isn't all this. She's a pure wryneck. One day she welcomes you by roll out the prayer rug, but if circumstances change next day, she'll wrap you in it and will send you right away to hell.

Never mention Merkel in such examples again. You are insulting upright ISIS suicide bombers only to the deepest by doing so. Even those Westlands haters don't deserve this.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Left generally wants to get rid of countries and nations and to form one world government.

Yes yes, be real afraid the new world order is coming to suck out your blood... Haha

[NewLeafsFan]

I am a left -wing Canadian. To be honest, I probably don't have a Canadian flag in my house and looking for a politician to say "put-Canada first" is not something that i do.

I think that in general, the right is more concerned about what is happening in its own back yard while the let wants to look at the world as a whole. Again, like you, not trying to label everybody but I think its a similar and closely linked trend. To give an example, I believed strongly in allowing Syrian refugees to enter Canada. Conservatives said no because of national security. Well, the way that myself and most Liberals looked at it was if we let in 2500 refugees and 1 is a terrorist. If the terrorist kills 100 people, then we still saved 2400. Conservatives would be more willing to let the 2500 die as long as they were not Canadian.

I also don't think that the left is becoming less patriotic, I just think it always has been.

and whats wrong with nationalism?

It was one of the main causes of World War I, so we should probably head in a different direction. Also, it encourages imperialism which the United Nations strongly opposes.

Same here. Stronk Serb
Left wing in europistan means that you are pro islamist communist. Like Angela Merkel who is Islamist commie or Macron who openly supports ISIS and who is commie. Just to name few.
Patriot wants what is good for his country and his nation and that is only yardstick they have. Left generally wants to get rid of countries and nations and to form one world government.

Leave it to you to turn a perfectly normal debate into a name calling contest about labelling ever national leader that you can think of as a communist, terrorist, or both.

As I have previously explained to you countless times, most Muslims are conservative (right, anti-communists). Angela Merkel is the Chancellor of Germany and the leader of the German Christian Conservative Party (Germany's main centre-right party). Nowhere near communism or ISIS. Macron is left wing but centre-left (no where even remotely close to communist).

I'll thank you to only respond if your response includes something about patriotism. It is very rude to get so far off topic. If you continue to be off topic, do not expect me to respond. If you would like to debate some of your wild communist ISIS conspiracies please start your own thread.

[mattsmith48]

Yes yes, be real afraid the new world order is coming to suck out your blood... Haha

No that's vampires

[Tim the Enchanter]

No that's vampires

rip.

[Spooky_Eli]

No that's vampiresit's actually the shape shifting lizard aliens

[Uniquemind]

I think it has to do with how a collective culture’s trust and social norms at a political level have been both lead on the right and wrong paths throughout history.

But since the invention of the internet dark secrets have come out to roost, hurting and blurring what it means to be patriotic, because the term itself is a catch-all term, it’s vague and so it’s one of those sweet marketing words, but has little substance behind it or is outright hypocritical depending on POV.

I know American concept of Imperialism was seen as patriotic at one point, but due to abuses, a good chuck of society is skittish on getting behind broad policies of action with the label of patriotic, lest they are aware of the backlash some policies hold in the eyes of Father Time.

[HeyCameron]

it’s vague and so it’s one of those sweet marketing words, but has little substance behind it or is outright hypocritical depending on POV.

I think that describes it well.

It's a term that everyone wants to claim for their own: their behavior is "patriotism" so anyone who isn't like that can't be a patriot.

If a patriot is just someone who loves their country, then I count as one. But some people think loving your country means supporting a specific political ideology and that all others who see otherwise can't possibly be patriots. That's where the term starts to lose is efficacy and relevance.

[trackinglife]

Because the LEFT was never Patriotic. They always hated America. Do not confuse the Left with Liberals or even Democrats. The Left is something else entirely at least in modern American politics.

[Uniquemind]

Because the LEFT was never Patriotic. They always hated America. Do not confuse the Left with Liberals or even Democrats. The Left is something else entirely at least in modern American politics.

Left and right terms also fall in the language vagueness perview, they’re relative to a specific era...and the platform of those ideas and how they’ve shifted throughout the decades and how technology has introduced speed of information and changed social & business ethics is a discussion worth having.


For the next 30 days, I’m game for a more intense dive into this discussion.

[trackinglife]

Left and right terms also fall in the language vagueness perview, they’re relative to a specific era...and the platform of those ideas and how they’ve shifted throughout the decades and how technology has introduced speed of information and changed social & business ethics is a discussion worth having.


For the next 30 days, I’m game for a more intense dive into this discussion.

The right hasn't really shifted all that much except it has SPLIT up more in many ways. But even the ones I would categorize as true conservatives have actually moved a bit more to the left in the past 15-20 years because they have tended to become more libertarian now on several pretty divisive issues yet they retain a core of Conservative ideals. But take the so called "alt-right" for example. I don't think they are on the right really at all. They have far more in common with the Bernie bros than they do with any other group really.

The left on the other hand has steadily moved further to the left. They appear to be a movement that asks for a hand so you offer a hand then they take your whole arm. That is just how they operate.

Liberals who identify more with classical liberalism now find themselves sort of at a crossroads with the left and feel they cannot continue down the path of rampant progressivism that the left is pushing. Therefore many liberals have become allies with many conservatives. People like Dave Rubin for example come to mind as an example of this. Christina Hoff Sommers is another.

[Uniquemind]

The right hasn't really shifted all that much except it has SPLIT up more in many ways. But even the ones I would categorize as true conservatives have actually moved a bit more to the left in the past 15-20 years because they have tended to become more libertarian now on several pretty divisive issues yet they retain a core of Conservative ideals. But take the so called "alt-right" for example. I don't think they are on the right really at all. They have far more in common with the Bernie bros than they do with any other group really.

The left on the other hand has steadily moved further to the left. They appear to be a movement that asks for a hand so you offer a hand then they take your whole arm. That is just how they operate.

Liberals who identify more with classical liberalism now find themselves sort of at a crossroads with the left and feel they cannot continue down the path of rampant progressivism that the left is pushing. Therefore many liberals have become allies with many conservatives. People like Dave Rubin for example come to mind as an example of this. Christina Hoff Sommers is another.


The left’s problem is the SJW’s and the right’s problem is the alt-right.

I agree on many points you made except that to say the alt-right isn’t right at all is to abdicate some responsibility on the media’s right and the monied right-wing party establishment who really began crafting the foundation for ideological polarization after cable TV debuted.


My parents say they noticed a shift in society after cable news TV allowed for communities both at a communal level and a city, state and federal level, allowed for group polarization and began the process of not really compromising and really interweaving a level of emotion into various political topics that need not more emotional-charges.

In addition to that both sides also don’t acknowledge when they’re wrong, during the Bush 2, years the fact that the Republican Party holds the platform of fiscal conservatism more than the Democrats, do; made them look or should have looked worse when USA invaded Iraq at a significant boost to the debt, a national debt that is used as reasoning to not fund other services, yet funding wasted on a no weapons of mass destruction found war.

Even the alt-right gets this point, and is partly why the Republican brand fractured because the alt-righters are mad about the debt, and didn’t stray from that platform when the money numbers came out. That and other reasons made them starved for loyal action upon ideological right issues, partly why this camp of supporters is for trump. Problem is these guys are overtly focused on loyalty of ideology to party politics platform, that they do not think pragmatically enough on issues much more socially complex; they still suffer from ends justify the means thinking.


SJW’s seem to be coming from a place of personal trauma, like I treat them like Inwould treat an abuse victim, I’m finding they usually are victims, but their way of establishing a comfort zone is to be almost aggressively offensive at times, and in their mind their defending themselves, but they aren’t healed people yet, and suffer from tunnel visions making them unable to debate more broadly without really lashing out at other’s POV. Sometimes idealistically ina kinder world they are right, but they forget the world runs on models because humans are incapable for sensing the world as it really is, in the same way cartography has margins for errors on maps, they serve a purpose but they aren’t to scale; our social models and programs also have margins of error; but still are important for societal utility.

[ShineintheDark]

The right hasn't really shifted all that much except it has SPLIT up more in many ways. But even the ones I would categorize as true conservatives have actually moved a bit more to the left in the past 15-20 years because they have tended to become more libertarian now on several pretty divisive issues yet they retain a core of Conservative ideals. But take the so called "alt-right" for example. I don't think they are on the right really at all. They have far more in common with the Bernie bros than they do with any other group really.

I'd have to ask you to elaborate on that final point because I don;t see your logic with that.

The left on the other hand has steadily moved further to the left. They appear to be a movement that asks for a hand so you offer a hand then they take your whole arm. That is just how they operate.

If by 'left' you mean the Democrats then I'm sorry to burst your bubble but the Democrats are in no way considered left-wing by anyone in the world but the US, where the Overton Window has shifted so much to the right that the entire political landscape is pretty much a Mad Max scenario. The Democrats are progressive on matters such as drugs, same-sex marriage etc and they may choose themselves as the face of racial minority issues but they are equally as war-hawkish as republicans, equally as bought out by Wall Street and equally as happy to fight for corporate interests. The Democrats are capitalist interests with a more agreeable face. The closest the US has to a genuine leftist force is Bernie Sanders and even then he's considered pretty centre-left by European standards.
Otherwise, what would you consider each party to be left/right on? Both promote lower taxation, both push for expansion of Medicaid for those in need of it, both declare themselves as the voice for the 'forgotten' poor and needy of the nation that the claim the other side happily ignores. There is no left/right in the US, just 2 different faces of the right.

Liberals who identify more with classical liberalism now find themselves sort of at a crossroads with the left and feel they cannot continue down the path of rampant progressivism that the left is pushing. Therefore many liberals have become allies with many conservatives. People like Dave Rubin for example come to mind as an example of this. Christina Hoff Sommers is another.
The same can be said for many people on the right who have steadily began to distance themselves from what the modern right has become in the US, such as John McCain or the Bushes or even Meghan Kelly. The political atmosphere of the US is poisonous and murky and the divisions go much deeper than simple left/right rhetoric. The US 'left' is currently undergoing a major identity crisis, clutching at literally anything they can to stay popular and relevant, attempting to put on a leftist face and push progressivism despite the fact that its most major faces (Hillary included) have been proven to be as conservative as a Democrat can possibly get.
The same is true with the right, which has pretty much abandoned many of its core ideals and values to instead become the 'Trump train', rushing to promote and defend Trump's actions no matter what they may be. There is no longer any real sense of unity or core message any more for either side.

[Spooky_Eli]

The US 'left' is currently undergoing a major identity crisis, clutching at literally anything they can to stay popular and relevant, attempting to put on a leftist face and push progressivism despite the fact that its most major faces (Hillary included) have been proven to be as conservative as a Democrat can possibly get.


The same is true with the right, which has pretty much abandoned many of its core ideals and values to instead become the 'Trump train', rushing to promote and defend Trump's actions no matter what they may be. There is no longer any real sense of unity or core message any more for either side.
A:you're conflating "capitalistic greed" with conservatism.

B: the ideals of "the trump train" have been present through the u.s right long before trump came around, trump simply gave those ideals a national platform.

[trackinglife]

The left’s problem is the SJW’s and the right’s problem is the alt-right.

I agree on many points you made except that to say the alt-right isn’t right at all is to abdicate some responsibility on the media’s right and the monied right-wing party establishment who really began crafting the foundation for ideological polarization after cable TV debuted.


My parents say they noticed a shift in society after cable news TV allowed for communities both at a communal level and a city, state and federal level, allowed for group polarization and began the process of not really compromising and really interweaving a level of emotion into various political topics that need not more emotional-charges.

In addition to that both sides also don’t acknowledge when they’re wrong, during the Bush 2, years the fact that the Republican Party holds the platform of fiscal conservatism more than the Democrats, do; made them look or should have looked worse when USA invaded Iraq at a significant boost to the debt, a national debt that is used as reasoning to not fund other services, yet funding wasted on a no weapons of mass destruction found war.

Even the alt-right gets this point, and is partly why the Republican brand fractured because the alt-righters are mad about the debt, and didn’t stray from that platform when the money numbers came out. That and other reasons made them starved for loyal action upon ideological right issues, partly why this camp of supporters is for trump. Problem is these guys are overtly focused on loyalty of ideology to party politics platform, that they do not think pragmatically enough on issues much more socially complex; they still suffer from ends justify the means thinking.


SJW’s seem to be coming from a place of personal trauma, like I treat them like Inwould treat an abuse victim, I’m finding they usually are victims, but their way of establishing a comfort zone is to be almost aggressively offensive at times, and in their mind their defending themselves, but they aren’t healed people yet, and suffer from tunnel visions making them unable to debate more broadly without really lashing out at other’s POV. Sometimes idealistically ina kinder world they are right, but they forget the world runs on models because humans are incapable for sensing the world as it really is, in the same way cartography has margins for errors on maps, they serve a purpose but they aren’t to scale; our social models and programs also have margins of error; but still are important for societal utility.

I disagree with a lot of what you said. Mainly the Iraq war. Iraq violated the cease fire and Saddam was a bad ruler to begin with. His sons were far worse. Bush 1 never should have made peace with them in the first place they should have been removed from power back then. But in any case Iraq violated the cease ire 11 times over and when you violate the cease-fire it is natural that firing resumes.....as for no weapons found. That was more a failure of the intelligence community than it was Bush's. He acted on the best information he had at the time. Would you have done differently? If all your intelligence agencies were telling you Saddam had WMD's would you have believed Saddam a dictator over your own intelligence agencies?

Oh and the fact that you think alt-righters care about the debt is laughable. Most alt-righters love socialism.......everywhere its been done it has created debt.

[trackinglife]

I'd have to ask you to elaborate on that final point because I don;t see your logic with that.

If by 'left' you mean the Democrats then I'm sorry to burst your bubble but the Democrats are in no way considered left-wing by anyone in the world but the US, where the Overton Window has shifted so much to the right that the entire political landscape is pretty much a Mad Max scenario. The Democrats are progressive on matters such as drugs, same-sex marriage etc and they may choose themselves as the face of racial minority issues but they are equally as war-hawkish as republicans, equally as bought out by Wall Street and equally as happy to fight for corporate interests. The Democrats are capitalist interests with a more agreeable face. The closest the US has to a genuine leftist force is Bernie Sanders and even then he's considered pretty centre-left by European standards.
Otherwise, what would you consider each party to be left/right on? Both promote lower taxation, both push for expansion of Medicaid for those in need of it, both declare themselves as the voice for the 'forgotten' poor and needy of the nation that the claim the other side happily ignores. There is no left/right in the US, just 2 different faces of the right.

The same can be said for many people on the right who have steadily began to distance themselves from what the modern right has become in the US, such as John McCain or the Bushes or even Meghan Kelly. The political atmosphere of the US is poisonous and murky and the divisions go much deeper than simple left/right rhetoric. The US 'left' is currently undergoing a major identity crisis, clutching at literally anything they can to stay popular and relevant, attempting to put on a leftist face and push progressivism despite the fact that its most major faces (Hillary included) have been proven to be as conservative as a Democrat can possibly get.
The same is true with the right, which has pretty much abandoned many of its core ideals and values to instead become the 'Trump train', rushing to promote and defend Trump's actions no matter what they may be. There is no longer any real sense of unity or core message any more for either side.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/20/socialism-neoliberal-capitalism-far-right Here is a source for you regarding alt righters and socialism. ITs the guardian which is hardly a conservative news site......

I am sorry how can you say both parties push for lower taxation when the entire Democrat party has been against Trumps tax cuts? And they ended the Bush tax cuts once they had enough seats again....show me an example in the last idk 30 or 40 years where the Democrats at the Federal level tried to lower taxes. I believe the last time it happened was 1974.

The only think you really said that I agree with is in your very last paragraph. I am not much of a Trump supporter. But I am a conservative. I am more of a Ben Shapiro and Ted Cruz kind of Conservative though.

But you being from Europe certainly puts a different twist on all of this. Because you think basically everything left of Mussolini is the Right.....we don't. You guys are soooo far left I can understand why you think the left here is still on the right......but that is why you really shouldn't discuss American politics because it just makes it confusing. Our terminology becomes so different because of the differences in our societies.

[Uniquemind]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/20/socialism-neoliberal-capitalism-far-right Here is a source for you regarding alt righters and socialism. ITs the guardian which is hardly a conservative news site......

I am sorry how can you say both parties push for lower taxation when the entire Democrat party has been against Trumps tax cuts? And they ended the Bush tax cuts once they had enough seats again....show me an example in the last idk 30 or 40 years where the Democrats at the Federal level tried to lower taxes. I believe the last time it happened was 1974.

The only think you really said that I agree with is in your very last paragraph. I am not much of a Trump supporter. But I am a conservative. I am more of a Ben Shapiro and Ted Cruz kind of Conservative though.

But you being from Europe certainly puts a different twist on all of this. Because you think basically everything left of Mussolini is the Right.....we don't. You guys are soooo far left I can understand why you think the left here is still on the right......but that is why you really shouldn't discuss American politics because it just makes it confusing. Our terminology becomes so different because of the differences in our societies.

Yes; I would have done things differently and no that’s not the full story of the intelligence that then persuaded Bush 2 to act.

I also add that many foreign policy experts now acknowledge in hindsight (because they were supporters of the Iraqi invasion earlier) that it was a mistake both as a USA reputation move, a bloodshed body-count loss of American blood and our UK allies blood. It’s affected the psyche of how hawkish we need to be even today, and affects domestic populations with veterans issues and VA overcrowding medical treatments now, they weren’t prepared for the consequences of 3-8 tours of duty.


Also many come back with mental trauma and we don’t have system efficiently dealing with matching patients with therapists. These same vets have also added to domestic violence calls and sometimes shootings because they snap.

I’m not saying all soldiers are like this, but I am saying it’s a side effect of the decision overlooked at the time when the call to invade was made.




Remember there was some scandal involving covert ops, leaking CIA agents real name to the public which endangers her, her family, and hurts her chosen and effort invested career.

It isn’t super simple that Bush 2, was given all the information without that information passing through layers of individual including the VP. So it’s a breakdown of multiple people in that administration.

Not only that but the Bush 2, tax cuts were given but not financed or paid for, in fact there’s a lot of information to suggest now that the Bush tax cuts is a larger percentage of the national debt today, than even the cost of what the Iraqi war cost.


Trump’s tax cuts last year also add to the debt as well.

—

Everyone I know who uses the label of right, in USA politics, is either libertarian or Republicans, and both support lowering taxes, but where many differ is understanding on if it’s okay to lower specific taxes or how one finances lower taxes in a policy so it doesn’t stress governmental (local, state, federal) budgets. I’m also speaking very broadly and general right now so to be clear.

[trackinglife]

"Everyone I know who uses the label of right, in USA politics, is either libertarian or Republicans, and both support lowering taxes, but where many differ is understanding on if it’s okay to lower specific taxes or how one finances lower taxes in a policy so it doesn’t stress governmental (local, state, federal) budgets. I’m also speaking very broadly and general right now so to be clear. "

Yeah that is great but Shineinthedark said both the LEFT and the RIGHT in America push for lower taxes and that is just verifiably false. I am perfectly willing to concede that both Libertarians and Republicans tend to push for lower taxes but both of them are on the right as you said.

[Uniquemind]

"Everyone I know who uses the label of right, in USA politics, is either libertarian or Republicans, and both support lowering taxes, but where many differ is understanding on if it’s okay to lower specific taxes or how one finances lower taxes in a policy so it doesn’t stress governmental (local, state, federal) budgets. I’m also speaking very broadly and general right now so to be clear. "

Yeah that is great but Shineinthedark said both the LEFT and the RIGHT in America push for lower taxes and that is just verifiably false. I am perfectly willing to concede that both Libertarians and Republicans tend to push for lower taxes but both of them are on the right as you said.

Well true as a party platform no, but the left also doesn’t ritualistic believe in higher taxes just cause, I feel when the right talks about the left that straw man is setup.


But at an individual level, I think many people can wear any political label, D, R, and L, (dem, rep, libertarian) and actually not vote along party lines.

I’ve seen my parent’s ballot measure booklets that come in, people who think do look at the persuasive arguments and causation of which tax measures are proposed locally or not. Is it a tax or through a bond raise measure.

It’s a bias sure, but not all biases are sure things. I think people don’t see this and that’s partly why one side no longer even tries to compromise with the other.


The right however is silent in their shame on trump, and I think the left expects more from those who lean right but disagree since theoretically they share a part your responsibility grouping with the side of the right that’s wildly protrump and emotional-voters.

[trackinglife]

"Well true as a party platform no, but the left also doesn’t ritualistic believe in higher taxes just cause, I feel when the right talks about the left that straw man is setup." Up until 1913 the income tax was illegal in America except during wartime. It was unconstitutional. Democrats managed to get the Constitution amended first by passing an amendment in Congress in 1909 and the States ratified it in 1913. They managed this by lying and saying only the ULTRA rich would be taxed. They continue to use that phrasing today and it is just as much a lie now as it was then.

"But at an individual level, I think many people can wear any political label, D, R, and L, (dem, rep, libertarian) and actually not vote along party lines." This is true but in the senate if you don't vote the way the leaders of your party want you to they can make your life and job quite miserable. Pretty sure this is also true in the House but maybe less intensely there. Now as far as the average American citizen of course they don't always vote along party lines but whats your point?

And the right is not silent in their shame on trump. I know many people on the right who didn't even vote for him in the first place. And now today we give him credit when we think he does something right and we criticize him when he does something wrong. Are there those on the right that don't do that? Sure! But I don't like those people. I try to not associate with them except to argue with them and get them to see where Trump is wrong. But arguably the most popular person on the right with the LARGEST Conservative followers and fans is Ben Shapiro who has the largest Conservative podcast listener base in the country and I don't think the numbers are close between him and number 2. And he regularly and often speaks out against Trump when Trump does something wrong or just stupid optics wise. Sometimes Trump does the right thing but SAYS the wrong stuff about it and Shapiro calls him out even for that. If you think the entire right is 100% behind Trump you're just wrong and obviously haven't talked to enough people on the right.

[Uniquemind]

"Well true as a party platform no, but the left also doesn’t ritualistic believe in higher taxes just cause, I feel when the right talks about the left that straw man is setup." Up until 1913 the income tax was illegal in America except during wartime. It was unconstitutional. Democrats managed to get the Constitution amended first by passing an amendment in Congress in 1909 and the States ratified it in 1913. They managed this by lying and saying only the ULTRA rich would be taxed. They continue to use that phrasing today and it is just as much a lie now as it was then.

"But at an individual level, I think many people can wear any political label, D, R, and L, (dem, rep, libertarian) and actually not vote along party lines." This is true but in the senate if you don't vote the way the leaders of your party want you to they can make your life and job quite miserable. Pretty sure this is also true in the House but maybe less intensely there. Now as far as the average American citizen of course they don't always vote along party lines but whats your point?

And the right is not silent in their shame on trump. I know many people on the right who didn't even vote for him in the first place. And now today we give him credit when we think he does something right and we criticize him when he does something wrong. Are there those on the right that don't do that? Sure! But I don't like those people. I try to not associate with them except to argue with them and get them to see where Trump is wrong. But arguably the most popular person on the right with the LARGEST Conservative followers and fans is Ben Shapiro who has the largest Conservative podcast listener base in the country and I don't think the numbers are close between him and number 2. And he regularly and often speaks out against Trump when Trump does something wrong or just stupid optics wise. Sometimes Trump does the right thing but SAYS the wrong stuff about it and Shapiro calls him out even for that. If you think the entire right is 100% behind Trump you're just wrong and obviously haven't talked to enough people on the right.


I know the right isn’t 100% behind him, I just haven’t seen enough internal noble voices fighting to take real conservatism back.


As for the income tax bracket, that’s an amendment and I respect that. If the right wants to undo that, I expect a Supreme Court challenge too that century-old amendment. Not the kind of whiny position on the income tax many on the right have. I think paying taxes is patriotic, but many politicians both left and right, regardless if they’ve voiced concerns about wasteful spending in government, once in power, also waste that money on private jet trips or taking along a spouse and go site seeing on taxpayer dime. It’s like tone deafness, where are the people in politics who are proud to be public servants? Sight see once you’re retired people....geez.

[Max the Disenchanter]

This thread depresses me.

[trackinglife]

I know the right isn’t 100% behind him, I just haven’t seen enough internal noble voices fighting to take real conservatism back.


As for the income tax bracket, that’s an amendment and I respect that. If the right wants to undo that, I expect a Supreme Court challenge too that century-old amendment. Not the kind of whiny position on the income tax many on the right have. I think paying taxes is patriotic, but many politicians both left and right, regardless if they’ve voiced concerns about wasteful spending in government, once in power, also waste that money on private jet trips or taking along a spouse and go site seeing on taxpayer dime. It’s like tone deafness, where are the people in politics who are proud to be public servants? Sight see once you’re retired people....geez.


Well yeah I would love to see an end to the income tax. That doesn't mean no taxes at all it just means we could move to a different tax system. Have you ever read The Fair tax, by John Linder and Neal Boortz? I think their system would work just fine. It is consumption based. It could conceivably even bring in more money because take drug dealers for example, they don't usually pay income taxes but they still buy bread, milk, etc so now they will pay their fair share of taxes too.

As to the rest you're right there is a lot of tone deafness. I would prefer to have fewer if any politicians and far more statesman. There is a difference.

[Uniquemind]

Well yeah I would love to see an end to the income tax. That doesn't mean no taxes at all it just means we could move to a different tax system. Have you ever read The Fair tax, by John Linder and Neal Boortz? I think their system would work just fine. It is consumption based. It could conceivably even bring in more money because take drug dealers for example, they don't usually pay income taxes but they still buy bread, milk, etc so now they will pay their fair share of taxes too.

As to the rest you're right there is a lot of tone deafness. I would prefer to have fewer if any politicians and far more statesman. There is a difference.


I’m actually a proponent of consumption tax policies for the reasons that book states and I just don’t see anybody proposing that on the floor of either house or senate. It’s elephant in the room.

[trackinglife]

I’m actually a proponent of consumption tax policies for the reasons that book states and I just don’t see anybody proposing that on the floor of either house or senate. It’s elephant in the room.

Yeah I mean they proposed it years ago but it was dead in the water which we all knew it would be. IF it ever passed Congress would lose a lot of power ultimately.

[TheMagicPotato]

Seeing how the left is clearly opposing to Trump's management.

I believe one of the biggest reasons they're not seen as patriotic anymore is because their opposition to the government. Because, if you love your country, you sure as hell love the government, right?

That's also the reason why overly-patriotic fellas are often classified as right-wing supporters.

I personally believe that you can love a country without loving it's government.

For example: I love my country Venezuela, but, I don't like the current government. That doesn't make me anti-patriotic, it makes me anti-nationalism.

[Jinglebottom]

For example: I love my country Venezuela, but, I don't like the current government. That doesn't make me anti-patriotic, it makes me anti-nationalism.
Is Maduro hated by pretty much everyone in Venezuela?

[Uniquemind]

Is Maduro hated by pretty much everyone in Venezuela?

Yeah Maduro rigged his election...I been slightly following events in Venezuela.

[TheMagicPotato]

Is Maduro hated by pretty much everyone in Venezuela?

Yes. He basically bribed the poor into voting for him and he hasn't given anyone the money he promised for.

He's also slowly eliminating every opposition to his regime.

We're basically screwed.

[Jinglebottom]

Yes. He basically bribed the poor into voting for him and he hasn't given anyone the money he promised for.

He's also slowly eliminating every opposition to his regime.

We're basically screwed.
It's a shame, he sounds like yet another soulless dictator. I had an aunt living in Venezuela but she basically fled back to Lebanon a few months ago because things went to total shit over there. It's really shocking that anyone could consider us an upgrade over another country. But anyway, I digress, I hope your country sees better days.

[Nicky47]

I know for years and years there has been arguments between the Left and the Right over which side is more patriotic. But ever since Trump won the 2016 election, the Left seemed to have admitted that they are no longer patriotic. I mean, when was the last time you've seen a prominent Liberal figure actively displaying the American flag? Or when was the last time you've seen a prominent Liberal saying we need to put American interests first? A few years ago those were shared values between the Left and the Right, yet now they aren't. In fact, there are many notable liberals advocating the opposite. Why is that? Is it over-reacting in the wake of Trump's patriotism-invoked administration, or is the Left finally showing it's true colors?

Note, I am not accusing anyone here of being anti-patriotic. I know there are very patriotic Liberals, and anti-patriotic conservatives. This is just about an overall trend I and others have noticed.
They actually have rallies to burn our flag....

[Uniquemind]

Themagicpotatoe has to be careful too, I suspect internet comments are being monitored about what one says about their own country.

By saying what he has already he might be in danger.

[Nicky47]

Themagicpotatoe has to be careful too, I suspect internet comments are being monitored about what one says about their own country.

By saying what he has already he might be in danger.

In most countries. if someone posts an internet photo with the severed head of the president, they are often executed or at minimum imprisoned. Here, its "comedy"

I do believe an NBA players father was just sentenced to 15 years in a Turkey prison for speaking out against his government ....yet we have it SO rough here:what::what::what:

[Uniquemind]

In most countries. if someone posts an internet photo with the severed head of the president, they are often executed or at minimum imprisoned. Here, its "comedy"

I do believe an NBA players father was just sentenced to 15 years in a Turkey prison for speaking out against his government ....yet we have it SO rough here:what::what::what:

It’s just not comparable, they’re so far in the dark ages, and the USA is further enlightened, but it’s not perfect either. My main gripe, is at what point do people say in America, that we’re “good enough” and stop trying to balance security and privacy and other rights? Each ideal alone has good merit and is worth pursuing lest one become and develop a callous heart, but taken together thats quite an ethical dilemma because it forces us to solve idealistic problems with pragmatic solutions...and those solutions change with the opportunities technology gives us.

Self-driving cars and liabilities along with the speed of social media Vs newspapers of decades past are prefect examples, especially when people don’t have enough specific information to vet claimed stories.

[Nicky47]

It’s just not comparable, they’re so far in the dark ages, and the USA is further enlightened, but it’s not perfect either. My main gripe, is at what point do people say in America, that we’re “good enough” and stop trying to balance security and privacy and other rights? Each ideal alone has good merit and is worth pursuing lest one become and develop a callous heart, but taken together thats quite an ethical dilemma because it forces us to solve idealistic problems with pragmatic solutions...and those solutions change with the opportunities technology gives us.

Self-driving cars and liabilities along with the speed of social media Vs newspapers of decades past are prefect examples, especially when people don’t have enough specific information to vet claimed stories.

Itll never stop each party is hell bent to destroy the other

[TheMagicPotato]

Themagicpotatoe has to be careful too, I suspect internet comments are being monitored about what one says about their own country.

By saying what he has already he might be in danger.


No. They don't monitor comments. At least for now.

But, being honest, why would a government agent monitor a page exclusively for teens?

[Uniquemind]

No. They don't monitor comments. At least for now.

But, being honest, why would a government agent monitor a page exclusively for teens?

They would monitor all outgoing data traffic exiting along cables and routers that eventually attach to cables around the planet earth that run under the sea which is how he internet works internationally; with the exception of direct satellite connections.

N.Korea and China choke off information and control information access to their populations in this manner and theoretically any country can do this generally speaking.

Venezuela can do this do, especially if they don’t want optics of national tragedies to get press coverage and all signs point to him being the type of person that would manipulate anything to preserve his power.


I was just worried for you is all.

[TheMagicPotato]

They would monitor all outgoing data traffic exiting along cables and routers that eventually attach to cables around the planet earth that run under the sea which is how he internet works internationally; with the exception of direct satellite connections.

N.Korea and China choke off information and control information access to their populations in this manner and theoretically any country can do this generally speaking.

Venezuela can do this do, especially if they don’t want optics of national tragedies to get press coverage and all signs point to him being the type of person that would manipulate anything to preserve his power.


I was just worried for you is all.

Well, the government actually blocked access to several pornographic pages.

[Thunderstorm]

So it's the left that is seen as unpatriotic yet it's the right that most often wears clothing with the country's flag on it, uses paper plates and napkins with the country's flag on it, and continues to violate the flag code by adorning materialistic props with the stars and stripes, all of which are crimes punishable by law.

Courtesy of U.S. Flag Code Title 1, Chapter 4, Section 8
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8

[Nicky47]

So it's the left that is seen as unpatriotic yet it's the right that most often wears clothing with the country's flag on it, uses paper plates and napkins with the country's flag on it, and continues to violate the flag code by adorning materialistic props with the stars and stripes, all of which are crimes punishable by law.

Courtesy of U.S. Flag Code Title 1, Chapter 4, Section 8
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8

Id venture to say this ''peaceful protest'' is a slightly more serious violation http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/308042-protesters-burn-flag-outside-trumps-new-york-hotel

[Stronk Serb]

I don't know why you guys are getting triggered over US flags being burned. It's not like most of them were made in the US, anyway.

Anyway, America is a clusterfuck now and neither the left nor the alt-right or right in general are- right.

[Nicky47]

I don't know why you guys are getting triggered over US flags being burned. It's not like most of them were made in the US, anyway.

Anyway, America is a clusterfuck now and neither the left nor the alt-right or right in general are- right.

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/politics/national-politics/american-flags-must-be-100-percent-made-in-the-usa-proposed-bill/277-565712698

[mattsmith48]

Id venture to say this ''peaceful protest'' is a slightly more serious violation http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/308042-protesters-burn-flag-outside-trumps-new-york-hotel

Whats not peaceful in that protest? In that whole article there is no mention of any violence or incitement to violence.

Also what about the serious violation of the 1st amendment when the president said on Twitter

“Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag — if they do, there must be consequences — perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail!”

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/politics/national-politics/american-flags-must-be-100-percent-made-in-the-usa-proposed-bill/277-565712698

That's only flags purchase by the federal government

[PlasmaHam]

Also what about the serious violation of the 1st amendment when the president said on Twitter

“Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag — if they do, there must be consequences — perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail!”

Him saying that isn't a serious violation of the First Amendment. He has a much right to say that as you got to advocate for censorship of religious speech. Politicans don't give up their free speech rights when they are elected. The problem here will start if Trump actually attempts to make flag burning an offense, but him simply saying it should be is his opinion, albiet an unwise one.
So it's the left that is seen as unpatriotic yet it's the right that most often wears clothing with the country's flag on it, uses paper plates and napkins with the country's flag on it, and continues to violate the flag code by adorning materialistic props with the stars and stripes, all of which are crimes punishable by law.

Courtesy of U.S. Flag Code Title 1, Chapter 4, Section 8
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8
This is referring to using an actual flag, not about flag iconography. You shouldn't use an actual flag as clothing or a blanket, you shouldn't use an actual flag as a tarp to carry items, you shouldn't use an actual flag as fabric for your couch, etc.

The flag code is not a law, it is simply a list of guidelines as to how to properly and respectfully address the flag.

[Thunderstorm]

Him saying that isn't a serious violation of the First Amendment. He has a much right to say that as you got to advocate for censorship of religious speech. Politicans don't give up their free speech rights when they are elected. The problem here will start if Trump actually attempts to make flag burning an offense, but him simply saying it should be is his opinion, albiet an unwise one.

This is referring to using an actual flag, not about flag iconography. You shouldn't use an actual flag as clothing or a blanket, you shouldn't use an actual flag as a tarp to carry items, you shouldn't use an actual flag as fabric for your couch, etc.

The flag code is not a law, it is simply a list of guidelines as to how to properly and respectfully address the flag.

They aren't punishable by law, I was wrong. However, you're wrong in that the flag PRINTED or ADVERTISED on anything is against flag code, and it is often right-wingers who adorn themselves with the flag. The bottom line is that it is just hypocritical, and anyone can see that.

"The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown."