Californian Legislature voting to ban "politically incorrect" books

[PlasmaHam]

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/california-progressives-launch-another-attack-on-free-speech/
Assembly Bill 2943 would make it an “unlawful business practice” to engage in “a transaction intended to result or that results in the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer” that advertise, offer to engage in, or do engage in “sexual orientation change efforts with an individual.”
The bill then defines “sexual orientations change efforts” as “any practices that seek to change an individual’s sexual orientation. This includes efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attractions or feelings toward individuals of the same sex.”
Essentially, this bill would ban both an adult's right to pursue conversion therapy, and potentially ban any material which speaks negatively of homosexual relationships. And I though liberals were all about being pro-choice and free speech. :rolleyes:

[Jinglebottom]

Sorry, but there is nothing you can do that will change your sexuality in any meaningful way. The sooner people stop being delusional and accept the reality of things, the better.

[Spooky_Eli]

"land of the free"....

Sorry, but there is nothing you can do that will change your sexuality in any meaningful way. The sooner people stop being delusional and accept the reality of things, the better.that's not the point. the point is that is is one's right as an American to peruse it, therefore censoring it is wrong.

Double posts merged. ~Jinglebottom

[lliam]

You still have the right to read it. Also you can write about it. But publishing it in any form seems to be prohibited.

But cause no one can advertise it anymore is already a good start. And those bigoted prayers of some churches can say goodbye to their dubious Faith healing sessions. A big plus.

[Stronk Serb]

For all you pro-liberty guys who support this, read this:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

If you believe that anyone has a right to believe anything he wants to, and be anyone he wants to, you cannot ban things like this. Now you ban homosexual conversion, but what is next? Banning things can and will radicalize moderate conservatives. The whole alt-right thing, no matter how laughable it is, was made by the actions of the liberals and the left.

[Spooky_Eli]

For all you pro-liberty guys who support this, read this:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

If you believe that anyone has a right to believe anything he wants to, and be anyone he wants to, you cannot ban things like this. Now you ban homosexual conversion, but what is next? Banning things can and will radicalize moderate conservatives. The whole alt-right thing, no matter how laughable it is, was made by the actions of the liberals and the left.
this is not far right action. this is traditional liberal action.

[Dalcourt]

There is no scientific proof that conversion therapy works quite the contrary there are many negative effects. It is basically not much more than any quack or hoodoo wizard taking money of good citizens to give them a magic medicine to cure cancer. What would this be if not a criminal act of fraud...Conversion therapy is not much better so basically it is outlawing of a fraud.
And since when are people against outlawing criminal acts :rolleyes:?

[Jinglebottom]

Perhaps you should be encouraging people to develop a healthy image of themselves instead of promoting that useless conversion therapy bullshit. I would be very interested in hearing how it can turn your love of dick into love of vagina. I'll wait.

[Spooky_Eli]

Perhaps you should be encouraging people to develop a healthy image of themselves instead of promoting that useless conversion therapy bullshit. I would be very interested in hearing how it can turn your love of dick into love of vagina. I'll wait.its not promoting it. censorship is censorship no matter what the content.

[Jinglebottom]

its not promoting it. censorship is censorship no matter what the content.
Outlawing a useless and damaging practice is not really censorship, more like common sense. And anyway, not all censorship is bad. Some things simply should not be accessible to the public.

[Spooky_Eli]

Outlawing a useless and damaging practice is not really censorship, more like common sense. And anyway, not all censorship is bad. Some things simply should not be accessible to the public.wrong. who is anyone do decide that?

[Dalcourt]

wrong.

So we should allow child pornography, hate speech and other criminal acts just for the sake of not censoring things?
Interesting concept. I wonder if you would think the same if you had to suffer the negative consequences?

[Spooky_Eli]

So we should allow child pornography, hate speech and other criminal acts just for the sake of not censoring things?
Interesting concept. I wonder if you would think the same if you had to suffer the negative consequences?child porn is another issue as it involves physical acts that don't have the participants consent, all speech is free speech hate speech is a myth

[Stronk Serb]

this is not far right action. this is traditional liberal action.

I never mentioned the far right. I just mentioned how moderate right-wingers can become radicalized due to the actions of the left and tje liberals.

There is no scientific proof that conversion therapy works quite the contrary there are many negative effects. It is basically not much more than any quack or hoodoo wizard taking money of good citizens to give them a magic medicine to cure cancer. What would this be if not a criminal act of fraud...Conversion therapy is not much better so basically it is outlawing of a fraud.
And since when are people against outlawing criminal acts :rolleyes:?

It is not enforced. What if someone does not want to be gay? Why is that wrong and a man wanting to be a woman is not?

[Jinglebottom]

wrong. who is anyone do decide that?
You should not be allowed to deceive and manipulate vulnerable people for your own personal gain. If you're gay you will always be gay, hating yourself this much will only damage you in the end. You'll still be gay, but instead of being gay and fine with it, you'll just be a bitter person who wishes they were straight. Self-hatred is not therapy.

[Spooky_Eli]

You should not be allowed to deceive and manipulate vulnerable people for your own personal gain. If you're gay you will always be gay, hating yourself this much will only damage you in the end. You'll still be gay, but instead of being gay and fine with it, you'll just be a bitter person who wishes they were straight. Self-hatred is not therapy.but thats just your opinion, there fore others should not have to addhear to it.

[mattsmith48]

PlasmaHam they are not banning ''politically incorrect books'' they are banning hatred towards the LGBTQ community.

I think its great, the US got a really bad reputation when it comes to gay rights and the oppression and treatment of the LGBTQ compared to the rest of the world, while this doesn't fix everything it is a step in the right direction.

You should not be allowed to deceive and manipulate vulnerable people for your own personal gain. If you're gay you will always be gay, hating yourself this much will only damage you in the end. You'll still be gay, but instead of being gay and fine with it, you'll just be a bitter person who wishes they were straight. Self-hatred is not therapy.

Does that include religion? Because ''deceiving and manipulate vulnerable people for you own personal gain'' that sounds a lot like religion to me?

[ShineintheDark]

It's a bit of an extreme action to ban all materials covering or even alluding to conversion therapy but it IS an immoral and deceitful practice that does nothing but mentally damage often young, vulnerable individuals, leading them into a life of hatred and self-loathing. This isn't 'censorship' per se and definitely doesn't warrant the whole Nazi allegory as it has been proven time and time again to be a pseudo-scientific practice. It has been disproven countless times and definitely doesn't work so cannot be defended by any person wishing to use common sense. It isn't religious freedom or personal liberty being curtailed here, it's child abuse.

[Spooky_Eli]

It's a bit of an extreme action to ban all materials covering or even alluding to conversion therapy but it IS an immoral and deceitful practice that does nothing but mentally damage often young, vulnerable individuals, leading them into a life of hatred and self-loathing. This isn't 'censorship' per se and definitely doesn't warrant the whole Nazi allegory as it has been proven time and time again to be a pseudo-scientific practice. It has been disproven countless times and definitely doesn't work so cannot be defended by any person wishing to use common sense. It isn't religious freedom or personal liberty being curtailed here, it's child abuse.yes, but to deny even consenting adults access to it is censorship

[ShineintheDark]

yes, but to deny even consenting adults access to it is censorship For consenting adults its saving them from being victims of fraudulent medical practices by pseudoscientists carrying out treatments not registered or legally recognised by any Medical Council in order to change personal characteristics that HAVE been proven to be pretty much unchangeable. Allowing gay conversion therapy to continue is not in the interests of public safety.

[Spooky_Eli]

For consenting adults its saving them from being victims of fraudulent medical practices by pseudoscientists carrying out treatments not registered or legally recognised by any Medical Council in order to change personal characteristics that HAVE been proven to be pretty much unchangeable. Allowing gay conversion therapy to continue is not in the interests of public safety.
authoritarian action is never justified.

[Dalcourt]

It is not enforced. What if someone does not want to be gay? Why is that wrong and a man wanting to be a woman is not?

Well if some gay person does not want to be gay guess this person has a huge problem. If you are gay you are gay and can't help it fulls top.You can't change being gay same as you can't change other parts of your personality. Conversion therapy is a myth and just triggers mental health problems in people.

If you are gay and don't want to be gay the only thing you can d9 is not act on it and you don't need a book or pay a so called specialist money for it.
I'm sorry but that is the only way.

And to burst your bubble people who took part in such therapies didn't do it on their own according most of the time they usually are pressured into it by their environment.

So it's fine if you guys are so much against censorship but in this case it is just holding on to a medieval form of thinking and mumbo-jumbo.
swedeam you tip-toed around my question. what if you where on the receiving end...you suffer mobbing and psychological damage because your bully can't be censored?

[Spooky_Eli]

Well if some gay person does not want to be gay guess this person has a huge problem. If you are gay you are gay and can't help it fulls top.You can't change being gay same as you can't change other parts of your personality. Conversion therapy is a myth and just triggers mental health problems in people.

If you are gay and don't want to be gay the only thing you can d9 is not act on it and you don't need a book or pay a so called specialist money for it.
I'm sorry but that is the only way.

And to burst your bubble people who took part in such therapies didn't do it on their own according most of the time they usually are pressured into it by their environment.

So it's fine if you guys are so much against censorship but in this case it is just holding on to a medieval form of thinking and mumbo-jumbo.
@swedeam (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/member.php?u=131168) you tip-toed around my question. what if you where on the receiving end...you suffer mobbing and psychological damage because your bully can't be censored?a: receiving end of what? b:prove to me that such damage can happen, because I've yet to see evidence that what you claim can happen.

[Uniquemind]

a: receiving end of what? b:prove to me that such damage can happen, because I've yet to see evidence that what you claim can happen.

Evidence: VT abuse thread, drops mic.

Okay but seriously I gonna comment on this subject using 3 perspectives.


1. Even if you believe anything other than straight cis-gender identity and sexual orientation is morally correct or natural The Bible clearly allows for free will of an individual to live in sin if they want to; but what you have in real life are parents who aren’t respecting that premise in the Bible and end up sending their children away to camps to get forced conversion therapy. Conversation therapy as a literal practice is also not mentioned in the Bible at all.


2. On the concept of “freedom” of speech, we have no problem under CDC policy quarantining someone to prevent a medical pandemic (remember Ebola from a few years back). It’s not technically jail, but like you aren’t free even to see your loved ones while dying AND sometimes you are forced to be cremated meaning your family doesn’t get to express religious rights of belief regarding burial practices.


3. Everyone has the right to have an opinion, but not everyone has a right to then take actions on their opinions and start affecting other people. It objectively also be that opinions should die if evidence has disproven a line of thought as harmful or incorrect.

[Jinglebottom]

but thats just your opinion, there fore others should not have to addhear to it.
Nah, it's called having decency. Unless you believe in legally manipulating people and exploiting their insecurities. Extreme self-hatred IS damaging no matter how you wanna spin it. Maybe you should send these people to a therapist instead. A delusion will always be just that: a delusion.

The very idea of "conversion therapy" is damaging in itself. A person may think gays are gross and immoral (and they're allowed to), but to act like homosexuality is a treatable illness is just wrong. There is no scientific basis, it's about as useful as using alternative treatments for deadly diseases. It's a superstition.

[Uniquemind]

Nah, it's called having decency. Unless you believe in legally manipulating people and exploiting their insecurities. Extreme self-hatred IS damaging no matter how you wanna spin it. Maybe you should send these people to a therapist instead. A delusion will always be just that: a delusion.

The very idea of "conversion therapy" is damaging in itself. A person may think gays are gross and immoral (and they're allowed to), but to act like homosexuality is a treatable illness is just wrong. There is no scientific basis, it's about as useful as using alternative treatments for deadly diseases. It's a superstition.

On humans yes, no scientific basis, but circumstantial evidence in other species has discovered female fruit flies performing courting and attempted mating behavior with other female fruit flies.

Other animals depending on circumstance seem to change their nervous system from male to female like in clownfish.

[Spooky_Eli]

On humans yes, no scientific basis, but circumstantial evidence in other species has discovered female fruit flies performing courting and attempted mating behavior with other female fruit flies.

Other animals depending on circumstance seem to change their nervous system from male to female like in clownfish.don't forget the trans frogs, anyway, even if you don't belive it works the people involved in it do.(big disclaimer:i personally do not belive it works.

[Uniquemind]

don't forget the trans frogs, anyway, even if you don't belive it works the people involved in it do.

I say this and I’d end it here. I’m glad it’s banned, especially as a business. If you believe it works then that individuals is free to pray for conversation of their own free will in private in their own home.

However as a business that takes money for the service and has no checks and balances against. Ideological parents who violate the free will of their children , that’s an overstep.


If huge percentages of the human species became disinterested in the opposite sex to the point where it actually becomes a crisis for human repopulate, I’ll re-examine my view.

[Dalcourt]

a: receiving end of what? b:prove to me that such damage can happen, because I've yet to see evidence that what you claim can happen.

a) I have made myself clear so you just have to really read what I posted. Anyway, you said you are against any form of censorship and hate speech is a myth etc. so if you had put pressure on you by society for being who YOU are would you think the same?
If people would mob you for your sexuality, if people would harrass you for your hair and skincolor would you still be fine with it?
If people would force their views of politics or religion or thoughts about sexuality on you. If they would send you to a so called therapist to make him indoctrinate those things into your mind, would you still think the same?
It's easy to have an opinion if you will never be confronted with a problem. But reality isn't as simple and as black and white.
I would reallyfind your being against those things quite gallant if it would comprise all topics in the world.

b) Do you even know what conversion therapy is about really?Just read up a bit about both sides of the topic and you will find a lot of proves for what I say.I highly doubt you have met a lot of people who have successfully gone through conversion therapy, so I believe you that you haven't seen any negative effects.
But you can tell me how many people you know who have tried this as a last resort due to pressure from society?

So as I said it's good to have an opinion and to be against censorship in general but sometimes it seems people in this forum are just against things just for the sake of being against it without having any knowledge about it at all.

[lliam]

its not promoting it. censorship is censorship no matter what the content.

Yepp, it's censorship. But it's meant to protect eg unstable folks who might easy fall for such idiotic stuff from consequential damages they may going through if they participate such therapies or just read those obscure literature.

Therefore, it's tolerable. Imo, especially because similar religious practices can also be prevented due they often may cause more mental damage.


Your freedom to do whatever you want to do ends where it touches the freedom of the others. And if others can not defend themselves against your encroachment on their freedom, you have to show them boundaries. And if it is by the act of censorship.

So, freedom isn't limitless. Especially not when many people live together in a complex society. Therefore, it is pure gibbering when someone speaks of unlimited freedom of


Because censorship always takes place in some way, often even by those who talking in a pathetic way the biggest crap.


You can be against censorship, but be aware, that's an act of censorship too.

[Spooky_Eli]

Yepp, it's censorship. But it's meant to protect eg unstable folks who might easy fall for such idiotic stuff from consequential damages they may going through if they participate such therapies or just read those obscure literature.

Therefore, it's tolerable. Imo, especially because similar religious practices can also be prevented due they often may cause more mental damage.


Your freedom to do whatever you want to do ends where it touches the freedom of the others. And if others can not defend themselves against your encroachment on their freedom, you have to show them boundaries. And if it is by the act of censorship.

So, freedom isn't limitless. Especially not when many people live together in a complex society. Therefore, it is pure gibbering when someone speaks of unlimited freedom of


Because censorship always takes place in some way, often even by those who talking in a pathetic way the biggest crap.


You can be against censorship, but be aware, that's an act of censorship too.
again, nothing in the scenario you present takes place without the participants consent. i understand your "don't let people hurt themselves" argument, but i still don't agree with it.

[lliam]

Well, all what I said was:

Censorship takes place in any case. You have to learn to handle it or try to enforce your censorship. That's how life is.

[Snowfox]

So we should allow child pornography, hate speech and other criminal acts just for the sake of not censoring things?
Interesting concept. I wonder if you would think the same if you had to suffer the negative consequences?

Yes. With CP if there is no one hurt like CP cartoons. I see how anyone can get hurt with that

[ShineintheDark]

authoritarian action is never justified. The argument of 'well, I disagree because of the principle' is NOT an argument. Despite the name of 'conversion therapy' the people who run these treatments are more often then not, not actual therapists and instead priests who feel they have a right to force someone to change their sexuality. If anything, it's false advertisement of what the actual treatment in. The Hippocratic Oath very clearly promises not to knowingly inflict harm upon others without chance of a positive outcome: any person who therefore carries out conversion therapy is as such A. Not a registered doctor or B. Breaking the very vow they made upon becoming one. Just as you wouldn't ask a pianist to defend you in court, you should never ask a priests to carry out 'therapy', especially one proven so false and fraudulent as this.

[Snowfox]

The argument of 'well, I disagree because of the principle' is NOT an argument. Despite the name of 'conversion therapy' the people who run these treatments are more often then not, not actual therapists and instead priests who feel they have a right to force someone to change their sexuality. If anything, it's false advertisement of what the actual treatment in. The Hippocratic Oath very clearly promises not to knowingly inflict harm upon others without chance of a positive outcome: any person who therefore carries out conversion therapy is as such A. Not a registered doctor or B. Breaking the very vow they made upon becoming one. Just as you wouldn't ask a pianist to defend you in court, you should never ask a priests to carry out 'therapy', especially one proven so false and fraudulent as this.

hippocratic oath its odd from you to take it into account.
how about abortion that is as principle againts oath-


But anyway banning opinons or banning publishing of opinions that you dont
agree with is simply wrong and against 1st amendment of us constitutuion. While restb of world does nor have constitution at all its still wrong

[ShineintheDark]

hippocratic oath its odd from you to take it into account.
how about abortion that is as principle againts oath-

This is not an abortion thread. I could argue against this but this is not the place to do so.


But anyway banning opinons or banning publishing of opinions that you dont
agree with is simply wrong and against 1st amendment of us constitution.
I don't really like the whole banning of all mention or allusion to conversion therapy thing but, of all the things censored in the US, the practice of conversion therapy really shouldn't be the hill to die on.

While rest of world does nor have constitution at all its still wrong
Actually most nations in the world have written constitutions, including Canada, Sweden, Australia, France, Germany etc. Even your own nation of Finland has one. The UK has no codified constitution but has a constitutional monarchy with Acts of Parliament, and overarching court rulings that often do the same thing. Often, this system is better as it means that our laws and values have evolved and changed over time as opposed to having a list of rules and laws written all at once that are frozen for the rest of time.

[Stronk Serb]

Well if some gay person does not want to be gay guess this person has a huge problem. If you are gay you are gay and can't help it fulls top.You can't change being gay same as you can't change other parts of your personality. Conversion therapy is a myth and just triggers mental health problems in people.

If you are gay and don't want to be gay the only thing you can d9 is not act on it and you don't need a book or pay a so called specialist money for it.
I'm sorry but that is the only way.

And to burst your bubble people who took part in such therapies didn't do it on their own according most of the time they usually are pressured into it by their environment.

So it's fine if you guys are so much against censorship but in this case it is just holding on to a medieval form of thinking and mumbo-jumbo.
swedeam you tip-toed around my question. what if you where on the receiving end...you suffer mobbing and psychological damage because your bully can't be censored?

"If some person does not want to be of their biological sex, then they have a huge problem"
You wish to say that trans people have a huge problem with themselves?
Censoring this makes no sense, yeah it is pseudo-science but there is so much other pseudo-science that is not censored either.

[Jinglebottom]

Considering this has pretty much become a debate,
The VT Daily Chronicle :arrow: Ramblings of the Wise

[HeyCameron]

I have a pretty extreme view on this: I don't think any book should be banned, ever.

I disagree strongly with conversion therapy, and I think it should be illegal to force a kid to undergo it, but an adult can make their own choices and decide for themselves if they think the literature on it is BS or not. They should not ban the literature itself.

[ShineintheDark]

I have a pretty extreme view on this: I don't think any book should be banned, ever.

I disagree strongly with conversion therapy, and I think it should be illegal to force a kid to undergo it, but an adult can make their own choices and decide for themselves if they think the literature on it is BS or not. They should not ban the literature itself. I tend to agree with you on the whole banning of literature thing but I semi-justify it under the logic that, since I believe conversion therapy should be banned, all literature that promotes what would be an illegal practice should also be censored in the same way a book that actively promotes theft or fraud would be.

[Uniquemind]

Conversation therapy goes beyond words and stated opinions on a page.

It bleeds over into physical actions taken when you account for hierarchical household power structure; which is not good 100% because it depends on having good educated and empathetic parents; a gift not everyone has.

I am against banning books, BUT I can compromise and feel that opposition views should be presented alongside the same information that is pro-of that same topic.

At the end of it all, the argument that has the most support should win if humans are looking the information objectively.

The point here is for all of us to admit, there’s a religious element to the point of view to have such beliefs, and therefore a black hole in logical structure exists when you do pro Vs con arguments with people who hold these views.

The same goes for abortion topics, it becomes this right Vs wrong argument, as if one side happens to understand what is objectively right or wrong as an absolute rule in all variable circumstances of the issue.

If someone is gay, or struggling with any sin for that matter, that individual alone, and of their own free will, must approach such a spiritual path with consent. This is what the Bible teaches for all people who wish to repent of any sin post-Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.

But at this point realistically, a lot of people have turned away from the faith and threat of hell and just want legal recognition and rights while they are biologically alive.


These same groups want to continue to violate the freedom of a child’s “choice” in their vernacular, to choose their orientation, on religious thought-foundation, their own book does not support. It should be as simple as ask (believe) and you shall receive.

[trackinglife]

Sorry, but there is nothing you can do that will change your sexuality in any meaningful way. The sooner people stop being delusional and accept the reality of things, the better.

A. You're ignoring the people that have done so. At least they don't engage in the behavior anymore and claim that they are attracted to their opposite sex partners.
B. You're ignoring that among teens recent research showed gay teens were MORE likely to get pregnant than their straight peers which suggests they aren't really gay so much as BI......yet they claim to be gay which is a bit strange....https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pregnancy-teen-lgbt/pregnancies-more-common-among-lesbian-gay-bisexual-youths-idUSKBN0NZ2AT20150514
C. Even if you were right what would the harm be in reading the material then.....I mean it would have no impact right because people can't be changed anyway.....

[wheredidyousleeplast]

I'm a pretty politically correct person and I think conversion therapy and urge suppression is bullshit, but banning books/censoring information is very scary and dangerous. How is it any different to when Nazi's held book-burning events for anything published by a Jew?

[Jinglebottom]

A. You're ignoring the people that have done so. At least they don't engage in the behavior anymore and claim that they are attracted to their opposite sex partners.
B. You're ignoring that among teens recent research showed gay teens were MORE likely to get pregnant than their straight peers which suggests they aren't really gay so much as BI......yet they claim to be gay which is a bit strange....https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pregnancy-teen-lgbt/pregnancies-more-common-among-lesbian-gay-bisexual-youths-idUSKBN0NZ2AT20150514
C. Even if you were right what would the harm be in reading the material then.....I mean it would have no impact right because people can't be changed anyway.....
A. Those people are most likely extremely sexually and emotionally repressed. What a life. Also, what's wrong with "engaging" in homosexual behavior exactly? More power to them if they apparently like the other sex now, though.
B. No comment.
C. I am not in favor of banning anything but the practice. Censoring material related to conversion therapy is too much.

[mattsmith48]

A. Those people are most likely extremely sexually and emotionally repressed. What a life

Or they're lying.

[trackinglife]

A. Those people are most likely extremely sexually and emotionally repressed. What a life. Also, what's wrong with "engaging" in homosexual behavior exactly? More power to them if they apparently like the other sex now, though.
B. No comment.
C. I am not in favor of banning anything but the practice. Censoring material related to conversion therapy is too much.

A. You're making assumptions based on your own confirmation bias though....you don't know these people so you can't know whether they are sexually or emotionally repressed....you're accusing them of lying automatically because if they are telling the truth it doesn't fit your worldview so they must be lying.....

[Jinglebottom]

A. You're making assumptions based on your own confirmation bias though....you don't know these people so you can't know whether they are sexually or emotionally repressed....you're accusing them of lying automatically because if they are telling the truth it doesn't fit your worldview so they must be lying.....
Maybe they are repressed, maybe they aren't (which I doubt), frankly it doesn't really matter to me. I just wouldn't be surprised if they grew up in a very anti-gay environment, which eventually pushed them to try to pray the gay away by whatever means necessry. If they find peace in trying to be heterosexual, good for them, but I don't buy that. It doesn't seem to have any foundation. Anyway, if conversion therapy truly works, perhaps you should instead be using it on pedophiles and zoophiles, who actually constitute a threat to other living beings.

[trackinglife]

Maybe they are repressed, maybe they aren't (which I doubt), frankly it doesn't really matter to me. I just wouldn't be surprised if they grew up in a very anti-gay environment, which eventually pushed them to try to pray the gay away by whatever means necessry. If they find peace in trying to be heterosexual, good for them, but I don't buy that. It doesn't seem to have any foundation. Anyway, if conversion therapy truly works, perhaps you should instead be using it on pedophiles and zoophiles, who actually constitute a threat to other living beings.

See this I will never understand....the argument from the gays has been you can't help who you love but they actually do think pedophiles should be able to help who they love. You sort of undercut your own argument.

[Jinglebottom]

See this I will never understand....the argument from the gays has been you can't help who you love but they actually do think pedophiles should be able to help who they love. You sort of undercut your own argument.
Maybe because homosexuality usually does not involve molesting and scarring a helpless child. A (normal) homosexual relationship between two consenting teenagers or adults should not be in the same class as pedophilia.

[trackinglife]

I am not saying they are in the same class. The homosexual community put them in the same class when they said a persons sexuality is immutable. Not me saying that, that's them saying that. They say it is an inherent trait but expect one set of people to change but not another. All the while saying it can't be changed. Do you not see where this gets confusing. How can it be changed if it can't be changed?

[Jinglebottom]

I am not saying they are in the same class. The homosexual community put them in the same class when they said a persons sexuality is immutable. Not me saying that, that's them saying that. They say it is an inherent trait but expect one set of people to change but not another. All the while saying it can't be changed. Do you not see where this gets confusing. How can it be changed if it can't be changed?
People who don't believe in conversion therapy usually don't expect pedophiles to stop being attracted to children, they just expect of them to not molest one. Meanwhile, those who do believe that you can change your sexual orientation, generally target that sentiment predominantly towards homosexuals instead of pedophiles. Personally, I believe you cannot change a pedophile's attraction to children. But acting on that attraction is still extremely harmful to the other party, while that is usually not the case between two consenting gays.
For the record, any person (gay or not gay) who believes pedophiles can change should be asked if they can change.

[trackinglife]

Okay I think all of it can be changed and indeed I do think pedophiles should be changed and if they are unwilling to change then either put them in prison or a mental institution one of the two. I would obviously not recommend the same be done to homosexuals. But if homosexuals do want to "convert" then I think it is a shame that some would attempt to stand in their way based on their own preconceived notions. If you don't want people standing in the way of someones homosexuality then why stand in the way of their attempt at heterosexuality.

[Jinglebottom]

Okay I think all of it can be changed and indeed I do think pedophiles should be changed and if they are unwilling to change then either put them in prison or a mental institution one of the two. I would obviously not recommend the same be done to homosexuals. But if homosexuals do want to "convert" then I think it is a shame that some would attempt to stand in their way based on their own preconceived notions. If you don't want people standing in the way of someones homosexuality then why stand in the way of their attempt at heterosexuality.
I just think so because I don't see the point in trying to repair what isn't really broken. And with my distrust of conversion therapy, I believe these people may be psychologically harming themselves with the notion that they are an anomaly that must be fixed instead of accepting themselves as they are. I don't think that's very healthy.

[trackinglife]

I just think so because I don't see the point in trying to repair what isn't really broken. And with my distrust of conversion therapy, I believe these people may be psychologically harming themselves with the notion that they are an anomaly that must be fixed instead of accepting themselves as they are. I don't think that's very healthy.

Well you're free to think that. I just think it is a shame you seem to think those who disagree with you are crazy. You make assumptions about them. And you conveniently seem to want to ignore two fairly well established facts about homosexuality.
1. That homosexuals tended to have either bad relationships or no relationships at all with a father figure.
2. Most homosexuals were abused by someone of the same sex early on in life before they even really knew their sexuality. The fact that there is a correlation suggests the possibility that abuse can change someone's sexuality. This is not to suggest the way people turn out gay is always because of abuse either. There have been straight people who were abused and didn't turn gay and there have been gay people who were never abused. But again it does show that abuse at least can be a factor that might get someone to change.

Also just throwing this out there but I have often seen gay people point out that Homosexuality in society goes all the way back to ancient Greece. Yet they conveniently leave out that the relationships back then were generally looked down upon and they were usually very old men (the teachers) with very young boys (the students). Why not offer that up as part of the conversation? It is like they are actively trying to hide it.

Don't even get me started on NAMBLA.

So it is very interesting that you seem to care about abuse when it comes to gay conversion therapy. But where is the outcry over all these other kinds of abuse that tend to be hidden away and/or denied by the Gay community at large?

I have spoken out regularly (not here) about the Catholic church and my feeling that their issues with abuse largely stem from the Church rules against priests being allowed to marry. I think it was a mistake to ever make that rule. I know Catholics who agree with me and some who disagree. All agree that the abuse shouldn't happen though and when it does happen the Church shouldn't attempt to hide it and should take responsibility. I am just asking the homosexual community to do the same and to oh idk stop making movies about 17 year old boys with 24 year old men.....which would seem to encourage more abuse.

[Jinglebottom]

Well you're free to think that. I just think it is a shame you seem to think those who disagree with you are crazy. You make assumptions about them. And you conveniently seem to want to ignore two fairly well established facts about homosexuality.
1. That homosexuals tended to have either bad relationships or no relationships at all with a father figure.
2. Most homosexuals were abused by someone of the same sex early on in life before they even really knew their sexuality. The fact that there is a correlation suggests the possibility that abuse can change someone's sexuality. This is not to suggest the way people turn out gay is always because of abuse either. There have been straight people who were abused and didn't turn gay and there have been gay people who were never abused. But again it does show that abuse at least can be a factor that might get someone to change.
I'm not sure what your point is. We're talking about conversion therapy here, not the factors that turn someone gay. I'm already well aware of the apparent factors, anyway, it's a commonly discussed topic. But for the sake of an anecdote, I have always had a very positive relationship with my father, while my mother was mostly absent during my childhood and I have a terrible relationship with her now.
I have always believed attraction to be an in-built thing that can be changed with little success. The idea of attempting to modify your sexuality just sounds unbelievable to me, and I wonder why any individual would even bother to try. Again, it sounds completely unhealthy to me and I'm not changing my stance. I would be equally as disillusioned if a straight person thought they could try to become gay.


Also just throwing this out there but I have often seen gay people point out that Homosexuality in society goes all the way back to ancient Greece. Yet they conveniently leave out that the relationships back then were generally looked down upon and they were usually very old men (the teachers) with very young boys (the students). Why not offer that up as part of the conversation? It is like they are actively trying to hide it.
I consider those relationships to be pedophilia. Akin to the modern practice of bacha bazi in Afghanistan. If you see anyone defending that you should rightfully call them out.

Don't even get me started on NAMBLA.
I have never heard of this. This is illegal right?

So it is very interesting that you seem to care about abuse when it comes to gay conversion therapy. But where is the outcry over all these other kinds of abuse that tend to be hidden away and/or denied by the Gay community at large?

I have spoken out regularly (not here) about the Catholic church and my feeling that their issues with abuse largely stem from the Church rules against priests being allowed to marry. I think it was a mistake to ever make that rule. I know Catholics who agree with me and some who disagree. All agree that the abuse shouldn't happen though and when it does happen the Church shouldn't attempt to hide it and should take responsibility. I am just asking the homosexual community to do the same and to oh idk stop making movies about 17 year old boys with 24 year old men.....which would seem to encourage more abuse.
I don't think I have ever denied that there are bad things about the gay community, nor is this thread even talking about that. But for what it's worth, I completely condemn the romanticisation of young teen-adult relationships (whether gay or straight). That shit's not right. I'm not sure how many share my viewpoint, there is no active gay community in my country. You should also blame your movie industry, in my opinion. Many of us dislike the way gays are portrayed in Hollywood movies, they don't speak for us all.

[trackinglife]

I'm not sure what your point is. We're talking about conversion therapy here, not the factors that turn someone gay. I'm already well aware of the apparent factors, anyway, it's a commonly discussed topic. But for the sake of an anecdote, I have always had a very positive relationship with my father, while my mother was mostly absent during my childhood and I have a terrible relationship with her now.
I have always believed attraction to be an in-built thing that can be changed with little success. The idea of attempting to modify your sexuality just sounds unbelievable to me, and I wonder why any individual would even bother to try. Again, it sounds completely unhealthy to me and I'm not changing my stance. I would be equally as disillusioned if a straight person thought they could try to become gay.


I consider those relationships to be pedophilia. Akin to the modern practice of bacha bazi in Afghanistan. If you see anyone defending that you should rightfully call them out.


I have never heard of this. This is illegal right?


I don't think I have ever denied that there are bad things about the gay community, nor is this thread even talking about that. But for what it's worth, I completely condemn the romanticisation of young teen-adult relationships (whether gay or straight). That shit's not right. I'm not sure how many share my viewpoint, there is no active gay community in my country. You should also blame your movie industry, in my opinion. Many of us dislike the way gays are portrayed in Hollywood movies, they don't speak for us all.


I wasn't providing anecdotal evidence. I was referencing statistical evidence.

As to the rest I think we found agreement on the rest honestly. Always good to find some common ground in these discussions.

[joefelix]

I say better to let bad ideas burn in the light rather than fester in the dark. Censorship doesn't really stop bigotry, homophobia, racism or any other form of hate. So rather than worrying about shielding people from it, show them that it is wrong, show them why it is wrong and allow anyone with 'out-there' ideas to openly share them for them only to be criticised

[DriveAlive]

If the only argument for banning it is that it is not scientific, then should we ban all religious books and practices?