Israel-Palestine Conflict

[NewLeafsFan]

Who's side are you on? Why? Can you think of a possible solution?

[Jinglebottom]

The Arab side of me says Palestine (but too bad they're violent and good for nothing but causing instability).
The gay atheist side of me says Israel (but too bad all they do is threaten to bomb and invade our country).
The Lebanese side of me says they can both choke. :D

[mattsmith48]

There will be no peace in the region until both countries start living together with set borders agreed upon by both sides.

[PlasmaHam]

Personally, the Israeli side. Much rather have a stable Jewish democracy there than yet another unstable Arabian theocracy.

There is really only one way to end this without major war, and that would be for both sides to sit down, define borders, and stay within those borders. Of course the problem is that many Arabian Muslims are completely against the very existence of Israel, so it's an up-hill battle even to get them to accept that Israel has a right to exist, nevermind establish a stable relationship with.

[Sailor Mars]

The Palestinians have been pushed around and kicked out of their land to make room for Israel, which has been increasingly bullying their way into new borders and taking over their land.

Like above users said, they need to establish clear borders and Israel needs to pull their military out of Palestinian land, and the Palestinian government needs to dismantle and put down nationalist terrorist groups that are forming and fighting against Israeli troops

[lliam]

Honestly, I'm tired of even thinking about this conflict.

After 70 years, the people in that small patch of the world are still behaving like little kids who balefully cast stones at each other.

They haven't learned anything.

I would simply isolate them from the rest of the world and then only contact them again when they've found a mutually beneficial solution.

Sigh, yes I know, I'm a merciless dreamer, who seemingly doesn't know a real solution too.

[Stronk Serb]

Honestly, I'm tired of even thinking about this conflict.

After 70 years, the people in that small patch of the world are still behaving like little kids who balefully cast stones at each other.

They haven't learned anything.

I would simply isolate them from the rest of the world and then only contact them again when they've found a mutually beneficial solution.

Sigh, yes I know, I'm a merciless dreamer, who seemingly doesn't know a real solution too.

Yeah, quarantine them. The international community tried to find a peaceful solution do many times.

[NewLeafsFan]

Personally, the Israeli side. Much rather have a stable Jewish democracy there than yet another unstable Arabian theocracy.

There is really only one way to end this without major war, and that would be for both sides to sit down, define borders, and stay within those borders. Of course the problem is that many Arabian Muslims are completely against the very existence of Israel, so it's an up-hill battle even to get them to accept that Israel has a right to exist, nevermind establish a stable relationship with.

Israel does not meet many people's definition of stable. And even if we could agree that it is, it is very offensive to say that a Palestinian state would be unstable because of their culture and/or religion.

As far as who is willing to sit down with who goes, historically the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) [not affiliated with Hamas] has recongizes Israel as an independent country. It is Israel that has not even recongized that the Palestinian people exist. A good example of this is when Israel backed down and did not implement that changes that they agreed to in the Oslo Agreement.

I agree with you about the two sides needing to exablish fair boarders. Since there are more Palestinians than Jews present on the land in question, they should get more land. Also, since Jerusalem is religiously significant to both Islam and Judaism it should be divided so that both nations have part of it.

[ShineintheDark]

The issue is that the whole argument has become irrelevant since Israel has been creeping into the West Bank steadily since the very creation of the original borders. Look at an up-to-date map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. How can we now move that many people back into Israel without kicking up a fuss and debate about whether they are by law Palestinian or Israeli? And that's not even taking into account how Jerusalem will be handled. The two-state solution was the best idea there could be a long time ago but by Israel refusing to recognise Palestine as a legitimate state and thereby USING that to take whatever land they can, we can no longer separate the two. No matter how this ends, there can only now be a single unified state.

To those arguing about Palestinian terrorism, we must recognise that by this point Gaza and West Bank are operating as separate entities: Gaza is run by Hamas, the internationally recognised extremist group and the West Bank is under the control of PLO and Mahmoud Abbas. PLO is behaving pretty well right now, Hamas isn't/. If we conflate the two, we will never get real justice for either side.

[Porpoise101]

Israel has the upper hand. With all the settlements now, it seems as if the West Bank will be slowly encorporated into Israel itself. Unless there is a mass round of ethnic cleansing of Israelis in the West Bank, I don't see it happening. And the international community and the US won't let that happen. Gaza has a bit more leeway but I think it is only a matter of time before they fall too.

It could have been different if the US elected a less hard-line President. Even a more moderate Republican would have probably pushed the Israelis to remove settlements. But four years is a long time to change the status on the ground in the Israeli favor.

This leads to an ugly situation where Israel either has to make the move of diplomatic suicide where they annex Palestinian territories outright and give the people equal citizenship or where they just occupy the territories with the native population living in a state of quasi Apartheid. In any case, Israel will have to either make a choice to adopt a bi-national identity or if they will stay as the Jewish State.

[Snowfox]

Or Israel could just wipe Gaza to oblivion. Killing everyone inside with massive carpet bombing. Or with starvation. Then what to do with west bank well thats another story.

[mattsmith48]

Or Israel could just wipe Gaza to oblivion. Killing everyone inside with massive carpet bombing. Or with starvation. Then what to do with west bank well thats another story.

That's kinda excessive, and a war crime, so not gonna happen.

[NewLeafsFan]

Or Israel could just wipe Gaza to oblivion. Killing everyone inside with massive carpet bombing. Or with starvation. Then what to do with west bank well thats another story.

Even if you believe that the Palestinians deserve to die, which they don't, killing them off would not fix anything. The result would be several other Arab countries invading Israel. It would just make the problem bigger.

[Snowfox]

mattsmith48 warcrimes do happen. Most usually liberal cheer when muslim extremists behead people since thats progressive thing to do. But when someone boils muslims alive in pig fat then they outcry.

And NewLeafsFan every Arab country is enemy of Israel allready. Every muslim in world hates Israel out of principle as well as 100% of Left wing commies since commies love muslims.
But anyway we could use tactical size nukes to build buffer zone between Israel and shitholestans.

Conventional bombs if big enough would propably do same

[mattsmith48]

mattsmith48 warcrimes do happen. Most usually liberal cheer when muslim extremists behead people since thats progressive thing to do. But when someone boils muslims alive in pig fat then they outcry.

Those are two different things, one is the death penalty for breaking a stupid law, the other is torture followed by long and painful death which is a war crime. Like any liberals I'm against both.

[ShineintheDark]

Those are two different things, one is the death penalty for breaking a stupid law, the other is torture followed by long and painful death which is a war crime. Like any liberals I'm against both.

I just ignore him by now. If he cannot give realistic and reasonable additions to the discourse of the forum (and, let's face it, he's a child who rarely does) then it's best to leave him to his own devices.

In truth, neither the hardline Israel backers nor the hardline Palestine backers can win out in this situation. Neither group are going anywhere and any attempt to remove either one would likely ignite a large scale war in the region. Therefore, as impossible as it may seem the only real solution is for Palestinians to be absorbed into Israel and made full citizens with fair representation within the nation. Whether the state is still considered Israel or Palestine or some sort of neutral amalgamation of the two, it's more realistic than attempting to form 2 separate states from the shred of no-man's land that remains.

[NewLeafsFan]

mattsmith48 warcrimes do happen. Most usually liberal cheer when muslim extremists behead people since thats progressive thing to do. But when someone boils muslims alive in pig fat then they outcry.

And NewLeafsFan every Arab country is enemy of Israel allready. Every muslim in world hates Israel out of principle as well as 100% of Left wing commies since commies love muslims.
But anyway we could use tactical size nukes to build buffer zone between Israel and shitholestans.

Conventional bombs if big enough would propably do same

Well thank you for confirming my earlier point. Arab countries hate Israel and with good reason. So why blow up innocent people? To give the Arabs an excuse to attack?

I have no idea what you are talking about with Liberal cheer. I'll guess that you are a conservative and that everything you dislike you refer to as liberal. It is actually the most conservative of Muslims that belong to ISIS.

[Snowfox]

NewLeafsFan Reason behind why arab countries hate Israel is that they worship Satan.
Proof? Muslims worship stone in mecca. That alone should tell anyone that they worship idols.

[Dalcourt]

NewLeafsFan Reason behind why arab countries hate Israel is that they worship Satan.
Proof? Muslims worship stone in mecca. That alone should tell anyone that they worship idols.

Muslims don't worship Satan more than any other world religion does and they do not worship the stone in Mecca. Maybe you should educate yourself a bit about Islam before you accuse Muslims of weird stuff like that.

Anyway, my opinion on the original topic of this thread.
It's hard to choose a side to because I feel that both have done so much wrongs over the years and none is really interested in making peace.

[NewLeafsFan]

NewLeafsFan Reason behind why arab countries hate Israel is that they worship Satan.
Proof? Muslims worship stone in mecca. That alone should tell anyone that they worship idols.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about or where you are going with this. Your ideas on this Islamic religion are incorrect and frankly, very offensive. The first and most important thing that you need to understand about Muslims is that most of them are much more accepting than you are of them.

Despite the fact that the three religions don't usually get along, Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all historically tied together. Please don't think that you are better than them just because your parents probably raised you to believe so which is sadly how bigotry usually spreads.

[Snowfox]

Dalcourt and NewLeafsFan I accuse muslim of idolatry and thats what they do. Also priest of church where I go tells us percetly how they worship Satan. Priest even told many times that some muslims fly to hell to have sex with Satan and even bear children to Satan.

Anyway I aint sure if that last part is exactly true or just allegory

[NewLeafsFan]

Dalcourt and NewLeafsFan I accuse muslim of idolatry and thats what they do. Also priest of church where I go tells us percetly how they worship Satan. Priest even told many times that some muslims fly to hell to have sex with Satan and even bear children to Satan.

Anyway I aint sure if that last part is exactly true or just allegory

Muslims do not worship Satan or have sex with him. Satan would not want that as it could produce a nypholem. As a Catholic myself, I know how difficult it is to learn about other religion from a priest because of the obvious bias. I think that it would be strongly beneficial to you to do some of your own research on that. Maybe an objective book on world religions perhaps. (Books are more reliable than the internet in most cases).

[ShineintheDark]

I mean, I DID warn you guys you'd get no productive conversation from him.

[Spooky_Eli]

@Dalcourt (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/member.php?u=101228) and @NewLeafsFan (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/member.php?u=124809) I accuse muslim of idolatry and thats what they do. Also priest of church where I go tells us percetly how they worship Satan. Priest even told many times that some muslims fly to hell to have sex with Satan and even bear children to Satan.

Anyway I aint sure if that last part is exactly true or just allegory
islam is a horrible religion, but devil worrship? try again.

[mattsmith48]

islam is a horrible religion, but devil worrship? try again.

Islam is not worst than any other religion

[Spooky_Eli]

Islam is not worst than any other religionexcept for the bits about being able to kill non belevers, oh and beating your wife, oh and throwing gays off of roofs!

[mattsmith48]

except for the bits about being able to kill non belevers, oh and beating your wife, oh and throwing gays off of roofs!

Those things are in the bible too, both religions come from Judaism and all three religion share a lot of similarities including the bad stuff like justification for killing non-believers, gays and women.

[Spooky_Eli]

Those things are in the bible too, both religions come from Judaism and all three religion share a lot of similarities including the bad stuff like justification for killing non-believers, gays and women.you wanna back that up?

[Dalcourt]

you wanna back that up?


2 Chronicles 15:12-13: And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

A lil background of what you all find in the Bible...I'm too lazy to do more right now.

[NewLeafsFan]

you wanna back that up?

Just because t this point in time, the Muslims are the ones in the news committing terrorist attacks and other crimes does not mean that it was always that way. Most Christians were against Jews during the early 20th century. Also, have you ever heard of the crusades? Or how about Protestants and Catholics killing eachother in Ireland? I'm a Christian but at least I'm not pretending that it makes me superior to others.

[Spooky_Eli]

Just because t this point in time, the Muslims are the ones in the news committing terrorist attacks and other crimes does not mean that it was always that way. Most Christians were against Jews during the early 20th century. Also, have you ever heard of the crusades? Or how about Protestants and Catholics killing eachother in Ireland? I'm a Christian but at least I'm not pretending that it makes me superior to others.
get a history lesson https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/the-crusades/the-real-history-of-the-crusades.html

[Jinglebottom]

I so love it when people claim they are for equal rights for women, gays, and atheists, but then turn around and show their support of a religion that not only preaches the opposite of that, but many of its followers still have no issue with murdering an atheist/gay person or beating a woman for not covering up to their standards. Makes me sad... but I digress. This is off-topic.

Remember this is an Israel vs. Palestine thread, guys, it's more about the conflict itself than the religions involving it. Please go back to the initial topic.

[Stronk Serb]

I support the Palestinian plight. They have their lands occupied by Israel which is at fault for flooding Lebanon with refugees, and Israel conducts war crimes and faces no real reprecussions. Besides, Israel caused things like Hezbollah, Hamas and other extreme factions in the Middle East.

[NewLeafsFan]

get a history lesson https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/the-crusades/the-real-history-of-the-crusades.html

Could you find a source that isn't obviously biased. You know, maybe one without the name of one of the religions involved in it?

[Spooky_Eli]

Could you find a source that isn't obviously biased. You know, maybe one without the name of one of the religions involved in it?
https://strangenotions.com/the-crusdades-urban-legends-and-truth/

[NewLeafsFan]

https://strangenotions.com/the-crusdades-urban-legends-and-truth/

Do you need the definition of non-biased? This is a Christian site. Read through it. It quotes the bible on many topics throughout the site.

[Spooky_Eli]

Do you need the definition of non-biased? This is a Christian site. Read through it. It quotes the bible on many topics throughout the site.https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/the-truth-about-the-crusades-they-dont-teach-in-school

[NewLeafsFan]

https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/the-truth-about-the-crusades-they-dont-teach-in-school

The truth they don't teach in schools? Well i guess there's a reason for it! It's fiction!

Can you just accept the fact that every western religion has caused wars over there history? Even if I give you the benefit of the extreme doubt on the crusades, that fact remains.