Free will

[NewLeafsFan]

I always believed in free will until recently when I had an interesting thought. If it's our choice to get married, and we decide not to get married, do we have a soul mate out there somewhere that will die alone because of our decision? I don't think so!

[SethfromMI]

I always believed in free will until recently when I had an interesting thought. If it's our choice to get married, and we decide not to get married, do we have a soul mate out there somewhere that will die alone because of our decision? I don't think so!

Free will doesn't mean there is not a plan God has for us or in the case you just brought up, there is someone specific God would have us marry. Free will is the the simple ability to be able to freely use your will to make choices for yourself. To freely choose right or wrong,to freely choose obedience or disobedience.

A lot of people, even Christians, sadly never actually pray if the person they are marrying is actually the right person for them. I think it is one of the reasons so many marriages, even Christian ones, will often end in a divorce (now divorce can happen for so many different factors as well).

So to answer your question though, will God somehow now allow the person He may have had for you to marry because you married someone else? Not necessarily, I don't think it is a guarantee though it automatically means God is going to choose someone else for them either though. I truly think even if a couple was maybe not right for each other in the beginning, in God's grace and love, if they center their relationship in God and truly make the decision to love each other they can still make it work.

I guess a lot of your specific question/thought about marriage would depend on what free decisions the other person decided to make on their own.

[ShineintheDark]

In this situation, if you factor in the fact that God is omniscience then He would have known who you are to marry and therefore would have already chosen them as your soulmate. Therefore, your decision is not free as God already intended that. As such, are free will and God's omniscience two counteracting factors?

[Arkansasguy]

I always believed in free will until recently when I had an interesting thought. If it's our choice to get married, and we decide not to get married, do we have a soul mate out there somewhere that will die alone because of our decision? I don't think so!

Let's reduce this argument to it's basic logical form:

Premise 1: At least some people have a "soul mate" that they are destined to marry.
Premise 2: If humans have free will, then it is possible that someone with a soul mate could not get married, causing their soul mate to be lonely.
Premise 3: No one with a soul mate will be lonely.
Conclusion: Humans do not have free will.

First of all, the argument is invalid as a matter of simple logic. That it is possible for free will to result in someone not meeting their soul mate, does not necessarily mean that this will ever actually happen.

Even besides the argument being logically invalid, the premises are highly questionable:

The first premise is faulty, because there is no reason to suppose that there aren't multiple people in the world that any given individual could have a happy marriage with.

The second premise is faulty because, if God (I'm assuming that you're arguing for theological rather than materialist determinism) predestined two people to be together, there is no reason why He could not ensure that they would freely choose whatever was necessary for that to happen. Historical necessity is not the same as compelling necessity, and it does not necessarily contradict free will.

The third premise is faulty because people get screwed over by the bad decisions of other people all the time. There is no reason to think that this case would be any different.

In brief, this argument is not at all convincing, and would require substantial refinement before it would be.

[RavenTheGoddess]

I'm one that believes we control and forge our own destiny. We are in charge of our lives.

[SethfromMI]

Let's reduce this argument to it's basic logical form:

Premise 1: At least some people have a "soul mate" that they are destined to marry.
Premise 2: If humans have free will, then it is possible that someone with a soul mate could not get married, causing their soul mate to be lonely.
Premise 3: No one with a soul mate will be lonely.
Conclusion: Humans do not have free will.

First of all, the argument is invalid as a matter of simple logic. That it is possible for free will to result in someone not meeting their soul mate, does not necessarily mean that this will ever actually happen.

Even besides the argument being logically invalid, the premises are highly questionable:

The first premise is faulty, because there is no reason to suppose that there aren't multiple people in the world that any given individual could have a happy marriage with.

The second premise is faulty because, if God (I'm assuming that you're arguing for theological rather than materialist determinism) predestined two people to be together, there is no reason why He could not ensure that they would freely choose whatever was necessary for that to happen. Historical necessity is not the same as compelling necessity, and it does not necessarily contradict free will.

The third premise is faulty because people get screwed over by the bad decisions of other people all the time. There is no reason to think that this case would be any different.

In brief, this argument is not at all convincing, and would require substantial refinement before it would be.

So let's take your argument a step further. Since this topic is talking about free will, which can expand beyond romantic relationships, if you are saying humans have no free will then why blame the human if they go on a murderous rampage or rob a bank or whatever else if they did not have the free choice in whether or not they were going to do it but were predestined to do so? If we have zero free will we have no ability to control whether we do right or wrong because in order to choose to do right we need to freely choose wrong.

I am not trying to argue or be antagonistic, I just want you to clarify.

[Just JT]

Free will doesn't mean there is not a plan God has for us or in the case you just brought up, there is someone specific God would have us marry. Free will is the the simple ability to be able to freely use your will to make choices for yourself. To freely choose right or wrong,to freely choose obedience or disobedience.

A lot of people, even Christians, sadly never actually pray if the person they are marrying is actually the right person for them. I think it is one of the reasons so many marriages, even Christian ones, will often end in a divorce (now divorce can happen for so many different factors as well).

So to answer your question though, will God somehow now allow the person He may have had for you to marry because you married someone else? Not necessarily, I don't think it is a guarantee though it automatically means God is going to choose someone else for them either though. I truly think even if a couple was maybe not right for each other in the beginning, in God's grace and love, if they center their relationship in God and truly make the decision to love each other they can still make it work.

I guess a lot of your specific question/thought about marriage would depend on what free decisions the other person decided to make on their own.


But Seth what I don’t get is if there is gods plan for us, how do we have free will?
You make it sound like we automatically follow gods plan. And if we choose to do someth8ng else, he still has a plan? So how is that free will?

[SethfromMI]

But Seth what I don’t get is if there is gods plan for us, how do we have free will?
You make it sound like we automatically follow gods plan. And if we choose to do someth8ng else, he still has a plan? So how is that free will?

No JT you haven't been reading my posts very carefully. God does have a plan He wants you to follow, but you can freely choose to follow it or not.

[Arkansasguy]

So let's take your argument a step further. Since this topic is talking about free will, which can expand beyond romantic relationships, if you are saying humans have no free will then why blame the human if they go on a murderous rampage or rob a bank or whatever else if they did not have the free choice in whether or not they were going to do it but were predestined to do so? If we have zero free will we have no ability to control whether we do right or wrong because in order to choose to do right we need to freely choose wrong.

I am not trying to argue or be antagonistic, I just want you to clarify.

I don't think you understood. I'm saying that humans do have free will, and that the contrary argument in the OP is faulty.

[SethfromMI]

I don't think you understood. I'm saying that humans do have free will, and that the contrary argument in the OP is faulty.

Whoops well now this is where I made the mistake and misread the post and point you were trying to make. So sorry about that.

Just JT Try to look at freewill this way. You're a Christian (or at least for the pretense of this you are) and God wants you to become a missionary. Through prayer you really begin to understand this is what God wants you to do. You now have the free will to obey God and become a missionary, which is God's plan for you or to say no I am not going to become a missionary for whatever reason you choose to. It is your free choice to make. When we sin, we are making the free decision to disobey God. When someone rejects Christ as their Savior, they are freely choosing to do so. Now, there are times in history and there will be more times in the future where God divinely intervenes in certain situations. For example, in the book of Revelation, we know Christ is victorious and there is nothing Satan can do about that. In general though when talking about free will, we do have the choice to live the life God wants us to live or not. With that will usually come with positive things or negative things. One is able to freely say they will not accept Christ. That is their decision to make. That decision will carry with it an eternity separated from God away from Heaven (assuming they never make that decision before they die). There are things God does want for us but free will give us the ability to choose to obey or disobey. Back to the case of marriage, if God wants you to marry, there is someone I believe God has for you. You have the ability though to wait for God to reveal that person to you and when He does, either choose to marry them, or choose to marry someone else or not get married at all. It i still your choice to make.

[NewLeafsFan]

I apologize. I must not have made myself clear. I believed that free will was a thing until i thought about it like this. I no longer believe that it is.

I agree that people should pray for and be more concerned about destiny. I am a Catholic.

Free will doesn't mean there is not a plan God has for us or in the case you just brought up, there is someone specific God would have us marry. Free will is the the simple ability to be able to freely use your will to make choices for yourself. To freely choose right or wrong,to freely choose obedience or disobedience.

A lot of people, even Christians, sadly never actually pray if the person they are marrying is actually the right person for them. I think it is one of the reasons so many marriages, even Christian ones, will often end in a divorce (now divorce can happen for so many different factors as well).

So to answer your question though, will God somehow now allow the person He may have had for you to marry because you married someone else? Not necessarily, I don't think it is a guarantee though it automatically means God is going to choose someone else for them either though. I truly think even if a couple was maybe not right for each other in the beginning, in God's grace and love, if they center their relationship in God and truly make the decision to love each other they can still make it work.

I guess a lot of your specific question/thought about marriage would depend on what free decisions the other person decided to make on their own.

Let's reduce this argument to it's basic logical form:

Premise 1: At least some people have a "soul mate" that they are destined to marry.
Premise 2: If humans have free will, then it is possible that someone with a soul mate could not get married, causing their soul mate to be lonely.
Premise 3: No one with a soul mate will be lonely.
Conclusion: Humans do not have free will.

First of all, the argument is invalid as a matter of simple logic. That it is possible for free will to result in someone not meeting their soul mate, does not necessarily mean that this will ever actually happen.

Even besides the argument being logically invalid, the premises are highly questionable:

The first premise is faulty, because there is no reason to suppose that there aren't multiple people in the world that any given individual could have a happy marriage with.

The second premise is faulty because, if God (I'm assuming that you're arguing for theological rather than materialist determinism) predestined two people to be together, there is no reason why He could not ensure that they would freely choose whatever was necessary for that to happen. Historical necessity is not the same as compelling necessity, and it does not necessarily contradict free will.

The third premise is faulty because people get screwed over by the bad decisions of other people all the time. There is no reason to think that this case would be any different.

In brief, this argument is not at all convincing, and would require substantial refinement before it would be.

[Arkansasguy]

I must not have made myself clear. I believed that free will was a thing until i thought about it like this. I no longer believe that it is.

That's precisely what I took you to mean.

As I explained, this argument is not a very good one.

[NewLeafsFan]

That's precisely what I took you to mean.

As I explained, this argument is not a very good one.

Sorry I didn't read your post as carefully as I originally should have.

Now I will counter your counter arguments:

I'm not convinced that there are many people that I would be happy marrying. I don't think that close and permanent relationships are as easily replaced as you have described. I mean, why should we be upset when our spouses die when we can simply go out and find another one?

Lets take my original argument and a take it a bit further. You have kids. Are they the same kids that you would have had with a different wife? Who are they supposed to marry? Don't you think that other people in your generation have kids that should marry your kids? I believe that everyone is born for a reason and many specific purposes. That may include getting married and having kids or not.

[Arkansasguy]

Sorry I didn't read your post as carefully as I originally should have.

Now I will counter your counter arguments:

I'm not convinced that there are many people that I would be happy marrying. I don't think that close and permanent relationships are as easily replaced as you have described. I mean, why should we be upset when our spouses die when we can simply go out and find another one?

Lets take my original argument and a take it a bit further. You have kids. Are they the same kids that you would have had with a different wife? Who are they supposed to marry? Don't you think that other people in your generation have kids that should marry your kids? I believe that everyone is born for a reason and many specific purposes. That may include getting married and having kids or not.

Human beings aren't born with all of their personality traits and the like already present, our attachments, dispositions, and so forth are to a large degree the product of our life experience. So the fact that a person grieves over the death of their spouse doesn't mean that they couldn't have fallen in love with and married someone else in the first place.

The bit regarding the identity of kids is an interesting philosophical question, but the same applies. Had a person married a different person than they actually did, they would have loved the children they had with that person just as much as the children they actually had.

To claim that there is only one person compatible with any given person, you would need to claim that humans are incapable by nature of having happy marriages, and are only able to do so by special divine intervention. If, as I think is clear, it is possible for two people to be naturally compatible, then the simple nature of probability means that there are almost certainly other people with whom a given person could have married.

Also, even if all of your premises are true, it doesn't disprove free will. It is certainly in God's power to ensure that people freely choose what is necessary for his plan to unfold.

[Uniquemind]

I always believed in free will until recently when I had an interesting thought. If it's our choice to get married, and we decide not to get married, do we have a soul mate out there somewhere that will die alone because of our decision? I don't think so!

Depends on the origin of what you understand to be "soulmate".

The concept of soulmates does not come from Christian-Judeo beliefs, but actually has it's roots in ancient Sumer and Egypt.

Free will is often a concept discussed from the Calvinist point of view in response to monotheism; usually because of modern Abrahamic religions mainly Christianity/Catholicism, Judaism.


I'm sorry I couldn't contribute to this thread earlier, as I can already see nobody here was aware of this history, by the direction of all the responses.

[mattsmith48]

They are over 7 billion people alive the odds of finding your soulmate are very low. As for free will, people who believe all their live was planned out from the start are just making up excuses and refuse to look up at the real source of their problems.

[NewLeafsFan]

They are over 7 billion people alive the odds of finding your soulmate are very low. As for free will, people who believe all their live was planned out from the start are just making up excuses and refuse to look up at the real source of their problems.

Exactly, the odds are very low. That's why I believe that it is already decided who you will marry and that your paths are destine to cross.

I have never used this as an excuse for anything. I have used it as a reason to think that there are better times ahead.

[mattsmith48]

Exactly, the odds are very low. That's why I believe that it is already decided who you will marry and that your paths are destine to cross.

I have never used this as an excuse for anything. I have used it as a reason to think that there are better times ahead.

That's even worse because if there was really a plan there would be no way to know if things are going to get better or if this is just the beginning, but if you think things will get better anyway you might be less likely to go do something yourself to make things better.

Same concept for the soulmate thing, by constantly looking for ''The one'' you might be passing on someone great.

[NewLeafsFan]

That's even worse because if there was really a plan there would be no way to know if things are going to get better or if this is just the beginning, but if you think things will get better anyway you might be less likely to go do something yourself to make things better.

Same concept for the soulmate thing, by constantly looking for ''The one'' you might be passing on someone great.

At least I wouldn't second guess any decisions I made

[mattsmith48]

At least I wouldn't second guess any decisions I made

If everything is already planned out, can you really call it decisions? Making a decision is making a choice, if everything is planned out you're not really making choices or decisions.

[SouthGeorgiaTeen]

I always believed in free will until recently when I had an interesting thought. If it's our choice to get married, and we decide not to get married, do we have a soul mate out there somewhere that will die alone because of our decision? I don't think so!

I think the whole idea of fate plays a role of that. Not everyone marries their soul mate. my grandparents are Baptist and got married when they were young. By the looks of them, they aren't each others soul mate.
So maybe they didn't find their soulmates because of a decision they made because of free will.

[Nikki_1]

This is such an interesting topic and the results can have either a positive or negative conclusion.
When God created Adam and Eve He didn't want them to be like robots that were pre-programmed to do His will so he gave them 'Free Will', He wanted them to enjoy life everlastingly on an earth that was a paradise.
Satan mislead Eve and she disobeyed Adam. On the other hand, Adam disobeyed God and this is why, by their own free will, we are suffering for their mistakes.

To end on a positive note, when instructed by God, Abraham offered his son Isac as a sacrifice, he didn't hold back even his beloved son and he did so out of his own free will and, by Abraham's subjection to God all the human race can have hope in our future for, in a parallel action God sent His only begotten son, Jesus Christ to give his perfect life as a ransom sacrifice, once and for all time. This paved the way for all mankind to regain what Adam lost for us.

Free will is indeed a powerful tool!!!

[Danieldv77]

In my opinion, thinking of whether we have free will or not is trivial;
If fate were really pulling the strings, what's the point of worrying about it, since all is destined to happen in the first place? Freedom from fate is the capability to make meaningful choices that impact the world around us differently, but if all choices were predetermined, we'd have no way to know, since we're still under the illusion that the choice still exists. Heck, the act of even worrying about it may have even been predestined, so the point is moot.

TL;DR, Live your life. It doesn't matter whether or not free will exists, so live as if it does and don't worry about if it doesn't, as, if so, your worrying was never going to change anything in the first place.

[SurpremeLeader]

You actually 100% do have free will and 100% not in a sort of twisted paradox. Every moment, you do have 100% responsibility and power to choose from a set of decisions. However the catch is all your previous experiences, habits and patterns in their own way "decided" your decision.

[NewLeafsFan]

This is such an interesting topic and the results can have either a positive or negative conclusion.
When God created Adam and Eve He didn't want them to be like robots that were pre-programmed to do His will so he gave them 'Free Will', He wanted them to enjoy life everlastingly on an earth that was a paradise.
Satan mislead Eve and she disobeyed Adam. On the other hand, Adam disobeyed God and this is why, by their own free will, we are suffering for their mistakes.

To end on a positive note, when instructed by God, Abraham offered his son Isac as a sacrifice, he didn't hold back even his beloved son and he did so out of his own free will and, by Abraham's subjection to God all the human race can have hope in our future for, in a parallel action God sent His only begotten son, Jesus Christ to give his perfect life as a ransom sacrifice, once and for all time. This paved the way for all mankind to regain what Adam lost for us.

Free will is indeed a powerful tool!!!

Everything that you said is biblical. But everything that is in the bible could be true or it could be in their to make us think that we have freewill. For example, maybe we are taught that Eve ate the apple and that let evil into the world. Or maybe she was created and put through experiences by God that made her eat it. Maybe it was scripted from the beginning. As a Christian, I'm guessing that you believe God knows how and when the world will end. But you are arguing that God had no idea what Eve would do in that situation with the snake. God must have chosen to have her choose to or not to eat it.

In my opinion, thinking of whether we have free will or not is trivial;
If fate were really pulling the strings, what's the point of worrying about it, since all is destined to happen in the first place? Freedom from fate is the capability to make meaningful choices that impact the world around us differently, but if all choices were predetermined, we'd have no way to know, since we're still under the illusion that the choice still exists. Heck, the act of even worrying about it may have even been predestined, so the point is moot.

TL;DR, Live your life. It doesn't matter whether or not free will exists, so live as if it does and don't worry about if it doesn't, as, if so, your worrying was never going to change anything in the first place.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't make smart decisions. I'm just saying that whether or not you make smart decisions is influenced by everything that you have been through. For example, I'm studying sport management because I want a career somewhere in the management department of a hockey team. I'm passionate about hockey because of how I was raised. I was also put in a situation where I was able to afford this education which happens to be located close to my house.

[JustMyHumbleOpinion]

I honestly find the whole idea of god and fate very interesting and amusing.
So if god has a plan for us, why do innocent kids get tumors?
Why does millions of kids die of malaria?

I think with that if a "god" does exist he really has no input into our lives.
Why would god be behind that raise we just got at work when there is billions of dying kids out there in pain?

All in all, i think with the world its just luck.
People who just got a raise has just done the job really well and with a bit of luck they got a raise- God IMO has absolutely nothing to do with that.

[NewLeafsFan]

I honestly find the whole idea of god and fate very interesting and amusing.
So if god has a plan for us, why do innocent kids get tumors?
Why does millions of kids die of malaria?

I think with that if a "god" does exist he really has no input into our lives.
Why would god be behind that raise we just got at work when there is billions of dying kids out there in pain?

All in all, i think with the world its just luck.
People who just got a raise has just done the job really well and with a bit of luck they got a raise- God IMO has absolutely nothing to do with that.

This is the way that I would look at that situation: people do the job well because they were raised to work hard and they get along well with their bosses.

[Uniquemind]

I always believed in free will until recently when I had an interesting thought. If it's our choice to get married, and we decide not to get married, do we have a soul mate out there somewhere that will die alone because of our decision? I don't think so!

The concept of soul mates is not a Christian concept. It’s concept as well as the symbolism of halos, actually comes from Egypt from the twin-souls concept


Among more loyal and learned evangelical Christian views who recognize this, this is the reason for why they feel moderate Christianity is incorrect and it’s symbolism like Christmas and Easter are seen as corrupt false teachings of god.

——


The concept of monogamy also runs into problems as well as the old prophets did not practice it, yet did not lose favor in God’s eyes until one would break one of the 10 commandments (either they met the condition of adultery, or murder so as to allow death to claim the spouse of a woman they then took as a wife; David did this latter point with Bathsheba).


—-


Free will exists, but Fate-destiny does as well they aren’t not necessarily conflicting despite first glances and you begin to see how to two philosophies can co-exist when you read up on quantum mechanics.

You realize what this universe is made out of and what other types of universes might simultaneously exist in neighboring pockets of creation.

In such discussions such as these we also forget we’re looking at humanity through a vaccum and we forget that free will seems to have been a policy given to ALL creation, and this included at one time the angels who had rebellions of their own and either fell into two main camps: the elect, and the fallen.

Each decision one entity makes changes the available decisions the entity nearby can make, free will when put into play begins to be its own limiting factor. (I.e I can choose to see a movie , only if the movie theater decides to be open that day).


Group behavior becomes a variable in free will, it interlocks us into a codependent relationship.


Destiny is the broader holistic concept encompassing decisions taken and not taken and despite that getting the same end result according to his will.

[NewLeafsFan]

Each decision one entity makes changes the available decisions the entity nearby can make, free will when put into play begins to be its own limiting factor. (I.e I can choose to see a movie , only if the movie theater decides to be open that day).


Group behavior becomes a variable in free will, it interlocks us into a codependent relationship.


Destiny is the broader holistic concept encompassing decisions taken and not taken and despite that getting the same end result according to his will.

My argument to that would be if the theatre isn't open, how come? Is it a holiday? If so, what caused the holiday?

[lliam]

If it's our choice to get married, and we decide not to get married, do we have a soul mate out there somewhere that will die alone because of our decision? I don't think so!



You can be sure that there are several soulmates to you all over the world. The thing is, you probably may never meet them.

But there are a lot more people who are almost compatible to you. Maybe for a lifetime, or only temporarily, because at some point, maybe they'll take a direction that you don't want follow.


To find a person who's your soulmate or even close to it, you have to choose to get to know as many people as possible on a bit cliser level. Most of the time we decide on a current solution, namely for a person we believe to be a such a kindred soul.

Well, until the opposite turns out.

But that has very little to do with free will, because we are more likely to follow a gut feeling, subliminal thinking processes where our sub-conscious makes decisions before we get aware of it.