Ask a Christian

[PlasmaHam]

I've been asked a few questions regarding Christianity and what not since this forum started. Because of that, I think it would be probably best to have a "Ask me" thread regarding it. I know we used to have something like this in ROTW, and it went pretty well for a time. So if you have any questions regarding Christianity, just ask, and either I or one of the other VT Christian members will try to answer your question. Hopefully this works out well for everyone.

[Sailor Mars]

What do you personally think happens after death? What type of people go to hell or Heaven? Do you believe people who say they’ve spoken to god or Jesus ?

[Living For Love]

What do you personally think happens after death?
People either go to Heaven or Hell.


What type of people go to hell or Heaven?
Anyone who is baptised and believes Jesus is the son of God.

Do you believe people who say they’ve spoken to god or Jesus ?
No.

[Elysium]

This is a great idea :D

What differentiates denominations of Christianity? Like, Evangelical, Baptist, etc. I have a friend who's Seventh-day Adventist and I'm not entirely clear on how her beliefs differ, either. Do they all fall under the umbrella of "Protestant"?

[Atlantis]

This is a great idea :D

What differentiates denominations of Christianity? Like, Evangelical, Baptist, etc. I have a friend who's Seventh-day Adventist and I'm not entirely clear on how her beliefs differ, either. Do they all fall under the umbrella of "Protestant"?

There are three main branches of Christianity - Catholicism, Protestants, and Orthodox.

Originally, there were only one general group. Catholics and Orthodox split because of a line they disagreed on in the Creed (our statement of beliefs), whilst Protestants split during the Protestant Revolution in the 16th century due to several other things they disagreed with.

There are various things that different denominations follow that make them all different. An example could include when Baptism (initiation into the Church) is performed - either as a child or an adult, as well as various other beliefs.

I don't know how well this is worded or this helps you but this is all I can think off right now.

[PlasmaHam]

This is a great idea :D

What differentiates denominations of Christianity? Like, Evangelical, Baptist, etc. I have a friend who's Seventh-day Adventist and I'm not entirely clear on how her beliefs differ, either. Do they all fall under the umbrella of "Protestant"?
To answer this like you want may take awhile. In the near future I'll make a post describing the differences between denominations, but right now I don't have the time. Very good question, I'll honestly need to do some research on it, but I'll get back to you about it once I can.

Like Endeavor said, there are three branches of Christianity: Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. Basically any church that isn't Catholic or Orthodox would fall under the Protestant label. That includes ones like Baptists and Seventh-Day Adventists.

[yeehaw]

What is Christianity like in general when it comes to other religions that aren't associated with Christianity?

Do all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin or is it only certain groups who believe this?

[PlasmaHam]

What is Christianity like in general when it comes to other religions that aren't associated with Christianity?

Kind of a broad question here. The most obvious is that most every other religion is based mainly upon works, while Christianity is base upon faith. Also, Christianity teaches that God comes down to us via Jesus Christ, while most others believe that instead they have to work themselves up to meet God. Christianity and Judaism are also the only major religions that believe in a sinless and all-powerful God.

Do all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin or is it only certain groups who believe this? Majority do, yes. There are some exceptions to this. Anglican and Episcopal churches do, and there are some indepedent churches that do aswell.

[Atlantis]

Majority do, yes. There are some exceptions to this. Anglican and Episcopal churches do, and there are some indepedent churches that do aswell.


Do all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin or is it only certain groups who believe this?

Let me just add something to this, as has been previously said, there are many, many differences between different denominations of Christianity (and even differences within the same denomination) which makes answering questions like these difficult as there are so many answers that can be given.

From a Catholic perspective, or at least how I interpret it, it's not necessarily a sin. Pope Francis even said himself he wanted attitudes towards homosexuality to change. The only thing regarding homosexuality that Catholics are against is same-sex marriage. They believe that the purpose of marriage is to raise a family, and homosexual couples cannot do that (at least not biologically).

[SethfromMI]

What do you personally think happens after death? What type of people go to hell or Heaven? Do you believe people who say they’ve spoken to god or Jesus ?

A lot of people think it is simply good people go to Heaven bad people go to Heaven. This is not the case. Scripture tells us no one is good not even one (Romans 3:11).

The way to Heaven is trusting in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. John 14:6, Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to the Father except through me."

God created this world perfect. Sadly, Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden and that sin has infected humanity. Sin makes man want to disobey God and live apart from Him. God knew man could never earn their way into Heaven. So Jesus Himself, who is God, came down to earth. While he was 100% God He was also 100% man (I realize that does not make mathematically sense but it is true). Jesus became the perfect sacrifice. Through the cross and resurrection He would defeat death for anyone who trusted in Him for salvation.

There are a lot of "good" people by earthly standards who are not going to make it into Heaven. In fact, by earthly standards there are going to be even a lot of "great" people. It is not about good deeds outweigh the bad. It is not about giving a certain amount of money. It is about whether or not we trusted Christ for salvation. I realize that makes some people unhappy but that is what it is. There is no other way.

There are some questions which naturally come up. What about babies who die before they accepted Christ or real little kids? Many Christians believe God's grace covers them until they can understand the difference from right and wrong (different denominations will give you different ages in what is sometimes called the age of accountability). Likewise, those who are born mentally unable to make such a decision in their life is usually also thought to be covered by God's grace. It gets a little trickier when you are talking about people who live in different countries who never heard the Gospel. Some say they are covered by that same grace, others feel the reason why Jesus gives His followers the Great Commission (the call to proclaim the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ) is because if they don't hear it, they won't go to Heaven. Again, believers will give you different answers on that.

So my answer is not perfect, but it really comes down to if one makes Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior or not. Not just asking forgiveness of sin, but allowing Christ to reign in their life. It doesn't mean they are perfect, but it means they are trying to glorify and live for Christ. Or if people choose not to accept Christ. The choice they make have eternal consequences. I believe we have up to the time we die or Christ returns to make that decision (Christ said He would die and He did. Christ said He would rise He rose. he said He was coming back again and back again He will come). Christ loved us all so much that despite knowing the imperfect people we would be, He would die on the cross for us. He offers His grace to everyone and anyone who wants to receive. Grace is God giving us what we need, not what we deserve. I understand it may seem harsh to some people, but to say God doesn't love them is a lie, because He has already offered up the greatest gift of all, Himself. And anyone who wants it can accept.

So it really is people's choice where they are going based on how they respond to Christ. Sadly most people choose not to accept. Again, sorry for the imperfect answer but I do believe it with my Heart.

[PlasmaHam]

From a Catholic perspective, or at least how I interpret it, it's not necessarily a sin. Pope Francis even said himself he wanted attitudes towards homosexuality to change. The only thing regarding homosexuality that Catholics are against is same-sex marriage. They believe that the purpose of marriage is to raise a family, and homosexual couples cannot do that (at least not biologically).
Yeah. I was addressing that question as to which churches are accepting of homosexuality to the point of marriage. The general consensus among Christians is that having homosexual feelings is not a sin, but acting upon those is. It's complicated subject matter, and like you said it is even more complicated due to the various denominations. Perhaps in the future we could create some "ask me" threads devoted to a specific denomination.

[rioo]

Belief in the messengers?
and how about other messenger from other abrahamic religion.

[PlasmaHam]

Belief in the messengers?
and how about other messenger from other abrahamic religion.
You mind being a bit more specific? Who are these "messengers" you speak of? Do you mean like Jewish and Islamic prophets?

[NewLeafsFan]

Anyone who is baptised and believes Jesus is the son of God.



I'm a Christian and I don't believe that baptism is a requirement to enter heaven. Are you trying to say that the babies that die in child birth go directly to hell?

[Living For Love]

I'm a Christian and I don't believe that baptism is a requirement to enter heaven. Are you trying to say that the babies that die in child birth go directly to hell?
Please read SethfromMI's brilliant reply (5th paragraph), as he clearly explained that particular issue.

[PlasmaHam]

I'm a Christian and I don't believe that baptism is a requirement to enter heaven. Are you trying to say that the babies that die in child birth go directly to hell?
The topic of baptism is controversial between denominations. Some believe it is required, some believe it isn't. Some believe that sprinkling or pouring is adequate, some believe that only full immersion is acceptable. Some believe that infants can be baptized, some believe that only professing adults can be baptized. Its one of the major denominational differences.

Regarding child deaths, again go back and read what has already been said.

[rioo]

You mind being a bit more specific? Who are these "messengers" you speak of? Do you mean like Jewish and Islamic prophets?

yes, exactly like this https://i.pinimg.com/originals/73/36/c9/7336c9c3f6bc0288ea4ae4708390a413.jpg

[PlasmaHam]

yes, exactly like this image (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/73/36/c9/7336c9c3f6bc0288ea4ae4708390a413.jpg)
Christians believe in the various Jewish prophets and leaders like Abraham, Moses, David, and Elijah. Christians in general believe that all the events of the Jewish scriptures happened, that's why they are included in the Bible as the Old Testament. John the Baptist is also believed by Christians to be a man who herald the coming of Jesus. In Christian belief, he is often regarded as the last of the prophets.

Jesus, or Isa in the Islamic texts, is not believed to be a prophet, but instead to be God in human form. That's probably the big dividing factor between Muslims and Christians. Christians believe that Jesus is God and that God is representative in three parts, known as the Trinity. Muslims believe that Jesus was just a prophet, and that belief in the Trinity is polytheism (the worship of multiple gods) which is heavily frown upon in Islamic teachings.

Mohammad is not seen by Christians as a prophet, nor to be of any religious importance. He is simply a man in 700's Arabia who founded a religion with tidbits of Christianity and Judaism mixed in.

[ShineintheDark]

Christians believe in the various Jewish prophets and leaders like Abraham, Moses, David, and Elijah. Christians in general believe that all the events of the Jewish scriptures happened, that's why they are included in the Bible as the Old Testament. John the Baptist is also believed by Christians to be a man who herald the coming of Jesus. In Christian belief, he is often regarded as the last of the prophets.

Jesus, or Isa in the Islamic texts, is not believed to be a prophet, but instead to be God in human form. That's probably the big dividing factor between Muslims and Christians. Christians believe that Jesus is God and that God is representative in three parts, known as the Trinity. Muslims believe that Jesus was just a prophet, and that belief in the Trinity is polytheism (the worship of multiple gods) which is heavily frown upon in Islamic teachings.

Mohammad is not seen by Christians as a prophet, nor to be of any religious importance. He is simply a man in 700's Arabia who founded a religion with tidbits of Christianity and Judaism mixed in.
In terms of relations between beliefs of the faiths, it can be quite a blurred subject. In terms of the most Orthodox beliefs of the three Abrahamic faiths, Judaism does not recognise Jesus as the foretold Messiah (the divorcing factor bwteen Judaism and Christianity) and so still follow what Christians would essentially call the Old Scripture as they had no Messiah to tell them to change. Christians in turn do not recognise Muhammed as sacred because they believe God's direct intervention on Earth ended with Christ. In turn, Muslims do not recognise Jesus as the Messiah, but rather another messenger of God.

However, these are very much sweeping generalisations and paraphrasing of modern beliefs as each of them have countless denominations that blur the lines of belief between them a little. For example, Messianic Jews DO recognise Jesus as the Messiah and call themselves Jews as they believe Christianity is a form of Judaism, not another religion entirely. In the same way, countless sects (particularly in the Middle East) further blur the lines of belief between the faiths in terms of what they practice, meaning the religions are not fully separate entities but more of 3 separate ways of looking at one long religious line that ends at different points for each of them.

[SethfromMI]

The topic of baptism is controversial between denominations. Some believe it is required, some believe it isn't. Some believe that sprinkling or pouring is adequate, some believe that only full immersion is acceptable. Some believe that infants can be baptized, some believe that only professing adults can be baptized. Its one of the major denominational differences.

Regarding child deaths, again go back and read what has already been said.

No where in the Bible does it say one has to be baptized in order to get salvation. I think if one has the opportunity to be baptized it is an awesome thing to do. I think Jesus, who is God, provided the example for a reason. It doesn't mean it is required for salvation though. Baptism is supposed to be symbolic. You are telling others you have trusted Jesus Christ as your Savior and your old life is dead and you have new life in Christ. You going into the water is symbolic of your old life dying and when you emerge it is symbolic of the new life you have in Christ when you asked Him to be your Savior. It is a public declaration of what Jesus has done for you.

Some denominations baptize babies. While I do not personally agree with this, it is not like it is sinful or you are damning the child to Hell. Nor is that the reason I believe babies go to Heaven (I think that goes back to being accountable for sin). It is a highly touchy issue for some denominations, but it does not determines one salvation(at least I certainly don't think that is what the Bible touches).

[Just JT]

What is Christianity like in general when it comes to other religions that aren't associated with Christianity?

Do all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin or is it only certain groups who believe this?

Like others have said it’s really different. I know from when I was going to a catholic school just a couple years ago, we were taught that or was a sin. Just like masturbation and premariatial sex is also. But even the Catholic Church is beginning to make changes as time goes on about same sex issues. But still, some individual parishes develop their own flavor I feel you will on many topics.

I'm a Christian and I don't believe that baptism is a requirement to enter heaven. Are you trying to say that the babies that die in child birth go directly to hell?

I was taught in catholic school,basically yes. I don’t necessarily believe that, but I’m also not catholic.
I was finally baptized last year into the Protestant or gongregational faith. Typically babies are baptizes, I was almost 16. For me I felt a need to make a commitment to god and a belief. Not necessarily ridding my soul of original sin

But I also agree with SethfromMI that maybe babies shouldn’t be baptized. They can’t make that decision at that time. Personally I believe that an all loving and all forgiving god will know when you pass how much remorse you have for your sins, if that’s even a thing.

[maddogmj77]

If god created the entire world, why did he make the Earth so dangerous?

There's:

Cyanide
Uranium
Mercury
Poison Ivy
Poison Oak
Nightshade
Oleander
Tobacco
Poisonous Frogs
Poisonous/Toxic Snakes
Scorpions
Earthquakes
Floods
Lightning
Hurricanes
Tornadoes
Tsunamis
Asbestos
Anthrax
Smallpox
Bubonic Plague
Polio
Aids
Ebola
Tetanus
Tuberculosis
etc.



If god created humans, why did he make them so faulty?


Our eyes have a blind-spot. (Squids do not have this problem)
Males urinal tract runs right next to their prostate which can become enlarged, blocking flow, and cause major problems.
Women have painful childbirth due to a misplaced pelvis.
We have useless wisdom teeth which can cause pain, infections, and crowded teeth.
We can't self-synthesize Vitamin C, while most other animals can.
We get things like Cancer, Diabetes, Scoliosis, Heart Attacks, Asthma, Anxiety, Depression, Schizophrenia, Autism, OCD, Psychosis, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages. etc.
Not to mention War, Rape, & Murder.


Is god not all-powerful?
Does he not care about human suffering?
Is he punishing everyone? (If so, Why? Isn't he supposed to be all-loving?)

[Living For Love]

If god created the entire world, why did he make the Earth so dangerous?

There's:

Cyanide
Uranium
Mercury
Poison Ivy
Poison Oak
Nightshade
Oleander
Tobacco
Poisonous Frogs
Poisonous/Toxic Snakes
Scorpions
Earthquakes
Floods
Lightning
Hurricanes
Tornadoes
Tsunamis
Asbestos
Anthrax
Smallpox
Bubonic Plague
Polio
Aids
Ebola
Tetanus
Tuberculosis
etc.


If god created humans, why did he make them so faulty?


Our eyes have a blind-spot. (Squids do not have this problem)
Males urinal tract runs right next to their prostate which can become enlarged, blocking flow, and cause major problems.
Women have painful childbirth due to a misplaced pelvis.
We have useless wisdom teeth which can cause pain, infections, and crowded teeth.
We can't self-synthesize Vitamin C, while most other animals can.
We get things like Cancer, Diabetes, Scoliosis, Heart Attacks, Asthma, Anxiety, Depression, Schizophrenia, Autism, OCD, Psychosis, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages. etc.
Not to mention War, Rape, & Murder.

Most of the things you have listed are dangerous because of human influence or the absence of it, not dangerous per se. You also forgot all the good things about nature or the planet or the human body.

Also, "war, rape, murder"? Aren't those things attributable to mankind?


Is god not all-powerful?
He is all-powerful, that's part of the definition of God.

Does he not care about human suffering?
He does.

Is he punishing everyone? (If so, Why? Isn't he supposed to be all-loving?)
Mostly because he has absolutely no incentive to do so, I'd say, but I guess this is quite debatable.

[maddogmj77]

Most of the things you have listed are dangerous because of human influence or the absence of it, not dangerous per se.
Why would god create such dangers in the first place?: Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, Nightshade, Oleander, Tobacco, Poisonous Frogs, Poisonous/Toxic Snakes, Scorpions, Earthquakes, Floods, Lightning, Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Tsunamis, Asbestos, Anthrax, Smallpox, Bubonic Plague, Polio, Aids, Ebola, Tetanus, Tuberculosis

These are all things which occur naturally; humans had nothing to do with them.
Why would an all-loving god create such things?

Why would god create humans with flaws?
He is all-powerful & all-knowing, why did he not give us a perfect body?

Why does god let things like Cancer, Scoliosis, Asthma, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages, all happen?

You also forgot all the good things about nature or the planet or the human body.
Well sure, there are some good things. But an all-powerful, all-knowing god should've been able to create a perfect human and a perfect world.

But he didn't. Because humans have flaws, and the Earth is dangerous. Which leads to humans suffering, and dying, every single day.
Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god, let this happen?

Also, "war, rape, murder"? Aren't those things attributable to mankind?
But god is all-powerful, so he could literally do 'anything' to stop stuff like that from happening.
But he doesn't, so people suffer & die every single day.

Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god not do something?

He is all-powerful, that's part of the definition of God.
So he could stop all human suffering with just a thought, but he chooses not to? Why?

He does. [Care about human suffering]
So if he's all-powerful, why doesn't he just end it? Does he 'want' us all to suffer?

Mostly because he has absolutely no incentive to do so [end human suffering], I'd say, but I guess this is quite debatable.
His incentive is that humans are suffering, in pain, and dying, almost 2 people a second, day by day, all around the world.
He's supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving, why does he choose to do nothing?

[Borxar]

Why would god create such dangers in the first place?: Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, Nightshade, Oleander, Tobacco, Poisonous Frogs, Poisonous/Toxic Snakes, Scorpions, Earthquakes, Floods, Lightning, Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Tsunamis, Asbestos, Anthrax, Smallpox, Bubonic Plague, Polio, Aids, Ebola, Tetanus, Tuberculosis

These are all things which occur naturally; humans had nothing to do with them.
Why would an all-loving god create such things?

Why would god create humans with flaws?
He is all-powerful & all-knowing, why did he not give us a perfect body?

Why does god let things like Cancer, Scoliosis, Asthma, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages, all happen?


Well sure, there are some good things. But an all-powerful, all-knowing god should've been able to create a perfect human and a perfect world.

But he didn't. Because humans have flaws, and the Earth is dangerous. Which leads to humans suffering, and dying, every single day.
Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god, let this happen?


But god is all-powerful, so he could literally do 'anything' to stop stuff like that from happening.
But he doesn't, so people suffer & die every single day.

Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god not do something?


So he could stop all human suffering with just a thought, but he chooses not to? Why?


So if he's all-powerful, why doesn't he just end it? Does he 'want' us all to suffer?


His incentive is that humans are suffering, in pain, and dying, almost 2 people a second, day by day, all around the world.
He's supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving, why does he choose to do nothing?


God did create a perfect world where none of those things existed. As a result of sin though, the world groans so to speak, and such disasters occur. Our DNA is breaking down over time and that leads to more mutations and diseases. The perfect physical world could be no longer. So instead He chose to save us in a spiritual way, by dying for such sin.

Why is there still suffering today? Well there are a few reasons for this. Again, it is a sinful world where people choose to be corrupt and selfish and that affects other people. And yes He could come down and stop it (and sometimes help is provided through His interventions) but to come back totally and fix everything would be to judge the world. And that day will come. However, He waits for God is patient and the archaic word for patience is longsuffering. Thus, God suffers longer for the reason that more and more people may come to know Him and turn to Him before His judgement comes.

Keep in mind also that death is only the beginning and He provided a way of salvation for us so that despite the bad things of this world, it is a short time in comparison to eternity, for those who persevere. And yet even though He has already provided so much, He is not a far off God and still guides and helps and comforts us throughout the bad things around. He can use those bad things to grow and strengthen us as well and be a great benefit to others. That shows His love for us in that although the world is sinful (not His doing) He gave us a way to have a relationship with Him for eternity.

[Living For Love]

Why would god create such dangers in the first place?: Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, Nightshade, Oleander, Tobacco, Poisonous Frogs, Poisonous/Toxic Snakes, Scorpions, Earthquakes, Floods, Lightning, Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Tsunamis, Asbestos, Anthrax, Smallpox, Bubonic Plague, Polio, Aids, Ebola, Tetanus, Tuberculosis

These are all things which occur naturally; humans had nothing to do with them.
Why would an all-loving god create such things?

Why would god create humans with flaws?
He is all-powerful & all-knowing, why did he not give us a perfect body?

Why does god let things like Cancer, Scoliosis, Asthma, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages, all happen?

Well sure, there are some good things. But an all-powerful, all-knowing god should've been able to create a perfect human and a perfect world.

But he didn't. Because humans have flaws, and the Earth is dangerous. Which leads to humans suffering, and dying, every single day.
Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god, let this happen?
Think about it this way, if humans were perfect and the Earth was 100% safe to live on, would mankind even need God?

But god is all-powerful, so he could literally do 'anything' to stop stuff like that from happening.
But he doesn't, so people suffer & die every single day.

Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god not do something?
What would you suggest, then? God instantly banishing warmongers, rapists and murderers to hell? God controlling the mind of humans so that they don't even think about the possibility of waging war, raping and murdering?

So if he's all-powerful, why doesn't he just end it? Does he 'want' us all to suffer?
No, but you don't want his help either.

His incentive is that humans are suffering, in pain, and dying, almost 2 people a second, day by day, all around the world.
He's supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving, why does he choose to do nothing?
Not sure why that is an incentive considering mankind despises God and his help/interference.

[PlasmaHam]

If god created the entire world, why did he make the Earth so dangerous?

There's:

Cyanide
Uranium
Mercury
Poison Ivy
Poison Oak
Nightshade
Oleander
Tobacco
Poisonous Frogs
Poisonous/Toxic Snakes
Scorpions
Earthquakes
Floods
Lightning
Hurricanes
Tornadoes
Tsunamis
Asbestos
Anthrax
Smallpox
Bubonic Plague
Polio
Aids
Ebola
Tetanus
Tuberculosis
etc.



If god created humans, why did he make them so faulty?


Our eyes have a blind-spot. (Squids do not have this problem)
Males urinal tract runs right next to their prostate which can become enlarged, blocking flow, and cause major problems.
Women have painful childbirth due to a misplaced pelvis.
We have useless wisdom teeth which can cause pain, infections, and crowded teeth.
We can't self-synthesize Vitamin C, while most other animals can.
We get things like Cancer, Diabetes, Scoliosis, Heart Attacks, Asthma, Anxiety, Depression, Schizophrenia, Autism, OCD, Psychosis, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages. etc.
Not to mention War, Rape, & Murder.


Is god not all-powerful?
Does he not care about human suffering?
Is he punishing everyone? (If so, Why? Isn't he supposed to be all-loving?)
What makes you think humanity deserves a perfect world? God may be a loving god, but he is also a just god. At first, God gave humanity a perfect world, but through our hubris and sin, we robbed ourselves from it. Humans, are in all respects, pardon my language, bastards. And like a good parent, God does not reward bad behavior by giving us what we want, but instead he punishes us for our transgressions, by allowing suffering among us. God does not like human suffering, but its frankly what we deserve.

[SethfromMI]

As some have already mentioned, the reason why there is so much evil in the world, both natural evil (things like tornadoes, hurricanes, etc) and moral evil (murder, rape, etc) is the result of sin. The world was made perfect and sadly sin broke God's creation. Sin is like a disease. It not only effects humans but it sadly effected the rest of creation too. The life we have now, the world we are living in, is not what God wanted for us, but it is what sin has brought.

Too many people (and this is not directed at the person who brought this up, because this issue, why there is evil in the world, is most people's biggest objection to God if they don't believe), but too many people want to blame the creator when the problem lies at fault with us. The problem lies with humanity.

Some people wonder well why didn't God just make us all perfect. Why didn't God just force us to obey and force us to love Him. Well God loved us so much He wanted us to have the choice to love Him. He wanted us to love Him but is it real love if it is forced from you? So God gave us the choice. In order to freely choose to love God we need the ability to freely choose not to love God. God wanted us to do good but again, God gave us a choice. In order to freely choose right, we need to freely be able to choose wrong as well.

There will come a day when God will return for His people. There will be a day when Revelation tells its readers God is going to make a new Heaven and Earth. Of course in order to be a part of all the wonderful things God has in store, one will need to be in a relationship with Him, one will need to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

I understand the issue of evil and pain and all of that is a hard one for people to deal with. It is. For most people, even those who say their biggest objection to God is purely intellectual, if you really dig a little deeper, it comes down to the issue of evil. It is easy to blame God, blaming God allows people (again, I am not accusing anyone here of doing this, it is a general observation) to not blame themselves for the things they do wrong.

Want to see more of a change? This world will not be perfect until Christ returns and even then there are certain events which need to happen before God makes His New Heavens and Earth. But if you want to see a better world we need to live the way God intended for us too.

[Stronk Serb]

To stand in the defence of the Christians, I think God decided to pull out of worldly affairs right about after his chosen people decided to crucify his own son who came to absolve humanity of it's sins. I mean if someone I could help would refuse my help, I would also say okay and not inerfere anymore. Besides, it's humanity's fault that we strayed so far from God's teachings, from eating the forbidden fruit up to now, we were constantly straying.

This comes from a guy raised in a Serbian Orthodox family so it could be different in some regards to Catholic or Protestant teachings.

[SethfromMI]

To stand in the defence of the Christians, I think God decided to pull out of worldly affairs right about after his chosen people decided to crucify his own son who came to absolve humanity of it's sins. I mean if someone I could help would refuse my help, I would also say okay and not inerfere anymore. Besides, it's humanity's fault that we strayed so far from God's teachings, from eating the forbidden fruit up to now, we were constantly straying.

This comes from a guy raised in a Serbian Orthodox family so it could be different in some regards to Catholic or Protestant teachings.

I respectfully see things slightly different. It is not that God became indifferent when Jesus was crucified for Jesus was the plan from the beginning. I think a lot of the things which happen goes back to us having free will. You have to remember, even in the Old Testament, people used their free will for some pretty evil things. You have to imagine, there were people doing pretty evil things that is not recorded in Scripture. God is still active today. A lot of his "inactivity" (or the appearance of it) I would humbly argue is one, God allowing people to use free will but two, God is trying to give people as many opportunities to turn from their evil ways and get saved and redeemed and forgiven from what they did.

God has certainly given us free will, but God has ultimate control. The events described in Revelation which will take place in the future is quite clear. The Israelite's are still God's Chosen people, we see that throughout Scripture God does not forget about them and has a plan for them.

Anyways that is some of my humble thoughts. I do see where you are coming from. And to be fair, there have been times even in the Bible where God for a time left the Israelite's to sort of stew in the mess they made. Even in those instances, it was never forever, as God made a covenant with His people. When God makes a promise, He keeps it. That is where I am trying to come from.

[maddogmj77]

Think about it this way, if humans were perfect and the Earth was 100% safe to live on, would mankind even need God?
Well god made humans and the Earth, so he should gave us nice bodies, and a nice world.
That's what a kind god would do.

What would you suggest, then? God instantly banishing warmongers, rapists and murderers to hell?
If a person is about to abuse, rape, or murder an innocent child, yes I would like that person sent to hell immediately.
That's what a caring god would do.

God controlling the mind of humans so that they don't even think about the possibility of waging war, raping and murdering?
He doesn't have to control everyone's mind, we can still have free-thought & free-will.
But as soon as someone makes the conscious decision to commit such an atrocity, that person should go to hell before they even get the chance to do so.
No-one should have to suffer on Earth because of someone else's decision to be an asshole.
That's what a fair god would do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What makes you think humanity deserves a perfect world? God may be a loving god, but he is also a just god. At first, God gave humanity a perfect world, but through our hubris and sin, we robbed ourselves from it. Humans, are in all respects, pardon my language, bastards. And like a good parent, God does not reward bad behavior by giving us what we want, but instead he punishes us for our transgressions, by allowing suffering among us. God does not like human suffering, but its frankly what we deserve.
So an innocent, sin-free new-born baby deserves punishment in the form of birth defects, or being stillborn?
Innocent, Faithful, God-Devout Children "deserve" to be molested, abused, raped, murdered, or given any number of horrible diseases?
Does god not care about the collateral damage he does to Innocent people?
That doesn't sound like a "just god" to me. I have no reason to love a god who lets this happen.

God does not like human suffering, but its frankly what we deserve.

If god doesn't like human suffering, then he should stop letting innocent people suffer, and punish the "sinners".
That's what a just god would do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stronk Serb
SethfromMI

Refer to my response to PlasmaHam.


Innocent children are receiving punishment. (Disease, Defects, Starvation, Rape, Abuse, Murder etc.)


Therefore, I don't think god is not fair or just; (He does not care about innocent people's suffering.)


Therefore, I don't think that god is kind, or loving.
[In fact, it's like he's choosing at random as to whom he "loves" & who gets "punished".
(Hitler became a leader. MLK was shot in the head)]


Therefore, I have no reason to love him in the first place.


If god wanted me to love him, he should at least give me a reason to.
All he would have to do is show me he is kind, just, & loving. An easy task for an all-powerful god.
Why should I love or obey a god who lets innocent children suffer?

What you are saying suggests that god is presenting us with an ultimatum: "Everyone on Earth shall love & obey me, or I will make you all suffer."
This sounds like an abusive and cruel god.

[Borxar]

Well god made humans and the Earth, so he should gave us nice bodies, and a nice world.
That's what a kind god would do.


If a person is about to abuse, rape, or murder an innocent child, yes I would like that person sent to hell immediately.
That's what a caring god would do.


He doesn't have to control everyone's mind, we can still have free-thought & free-will.
But as soon as someone makes the conscious decision to commit such an atrocity, that person should go to hell before they even get the chance to do so.
No-one should have to suffer on Earth because of someone else's decision to be an asshole.
That's what a fair god would do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So an innocent, sin-free new-born baby deserves punishment in the form of birth defects, or being stillborn?
Innocent, Faithful, God-Devout Children "deserve" to be molested, abused, raped, murdered, or given any number of horrible diseases?
Does god not care about the collateral damage he does to Innocent people?
That doesn't sound like a "just god" to me. I have no reason to love a god who lets this happen.



If god doesn't like human suffering, then he should stop letting innocent people suffer, and punish the "sinners".
That's what a just god would do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stronk Serb
SethfromMI

Refer to my response to PlasmaHam.


Innocent children are receiving punishment. (Disease, Defects, Starvation, Rape, Abuse, Murder etc.)


Therefore, I don't think god is not fair or just; (He does not care about innocent people's suffering.)


Therefore, I don't think that god is kind, or loving.
[In fact, it's like he's choosing at random as to whom he "loves" & who gets "punished".
(Hitler became a leader. MLK was shot in the head)]


Therefore, I have no reason to love him in the first place.


If god wanted me to love him, he should at least give me a reason to.
All he would have to do is show me he is kind, just, & loving. An easy task for an all-powerful god.
Why should I love or obey a god who lets innocent children suffer?

What you are saying suggests that god is presenting us with an ultimatum: "Everyone on Earth shall love & obey me, or I will make you all suffer."
This sounds like an abusive and cruel god.


If you refer back to my post that you missed, it addresses some of those issues. Intervention is not always seen in the way we expect but in the overall scheme of things. Whilst there is suffering in this lifetime, you are not looking at the bigger picture. This life lasts around 80 years. How long is that in the scheme of eternity?

God is not making people suffer. And if he was to punish the "sinners" then all of us would be punished. If you even hate someone, it is equitable to murder. If you lust for someone it is equitable to adultery. We are all lying, murderous thieves. We are all sinful and fall short of the glory of God.

So then God already has shown you how much he loves you, has done more than what was just and fair by a) allowing us to know Him, as we wouldn't be able to know Him if He didn't choose to know us, b) By coming to experience and share in our sufferings, c) By taking the penalty of death that we all deserve away from us, by demonstrating his love and dying for us whilst we were still sinners (As seen in Romans 5:8). And d) By still being around today allowing more and more to come to know Him. So God has shown that He loves you by choosing to die in your place and conquering death itself to give you abundant life.

[Just JT]

If you refer back to my post that you missed, it addresses some of those issues. Intervention is not always seen in the way we expect but in the overall scheme of things. Whilst there is suffering in this lifetime, you are not looking at the bigger picture. This life lasts around 80 years. How long is that in the scheme of eternity?

God is not making people suffer. And if he was to punish the "sinners" then all of us would be punished. If you even hate someone, it is equitable to murder. If you lust for someone it is equitable to adultery. We are all lying, murderous thieves. We are all sinful and fall short of the glory of God.

So then God already has shown you how much he loves you, has done more than what was just and fair by a) allowing us to know Him, as we wouldn't be able to know Him if He didn't choose to know us, b) By coming to experience and share in our sufferings, c) By taking the penalty of death that we all deserve away from us, by demonstrating his love and dying for us whilst we were still sinners (As seen in Romans 5:8). And d) By still being around today allowing more and more to come to know Him. So God has shown that He loves you by choosing to die in your place and conquering death itself to give you abundant life.


See foe me, it’s thismpost and your first one that tends to make me question my faith. I just don’t get why these natural bad things, disease, natural disasters, and other natural things like birth defects and life altering illnesses happen. I get the genetic side of it from a scientific perspective, but....victims of earthquakes, hufficains, flooding, and wildfire. Those are all natural things that just happen. God created the world, the heavens, earth, water, wind, snow, light and the darkness was already there right? But why?

We are given free will, so that explains how people can do bad things to people. And he for whatever reason allows people to be victims in domestic violence, murder, school shootings, mass public shootings, victims of sex crimes and child abuse are allowed to go on under the ruler of god. Seemingly with no consequences under that ruling, that we, the victims, will ever see.

Are we really expected to simply forgive all those who have sined against us with no closure? Yeah that’s really hard to do, nobody said it’s easy to be a good Christian. But that’s what’s expected of us? I have a hard time with it sometimes. Not saying your wrong, and I wana believe in what you say, but also have a hard time buying in on that.

God has jos reasons, he has his plan and a purpose for what happens,our lives are laid down before him for him to use and direct us through life. Yet when we’re faced with repeated events that challenge our wellbeing, health and safety as a result of natural events......why do these things happen? Is god pissed off at the world? If so then why take it out on all of the people instead of the ones he said pissed off at? He said supposed to be all forgiving. I don’t get it.

People comittint atrocities will get their due when they pass. I get that, but does that allow them a free pass tomdomwhat they want until then? A lot like a guy doing life in prison, with no chance for parole, and committing rape to satisfy his own personal physical needs. And the consequences are what after death?

I do believe in god, I really do, but this is an area I really struggle with, and from my own personal life I look at people and think to myself if those who have sined against me, whatever consequences they receive while on earth, are completely irrelevant to the real consequences they’ll receive after death, if any consequences at all.

All I can do is think about it, and I try not to dwell to much on it, but it does come up from time to time. And I have a hard time forgiving those people. And if they beg for forgiveness their sins will be forgiven, and enter the kingdom of god. But what about the “me” part of that equation?

Not trying to create a debate here, more like I’d like a really good reasonable answer, if there is one, in an easy way to understand.

Just hard to wrap my head around all the bad stuff that happens to good people, in an all forgiving world with a loving god

Sorry to ramble, thanks for reading

[Borxar]

See foe me, it’s thismpost and your first one that tends to make me question my faith. I just don’t get why these natural bad things, disease, natural disasters, and other natural things like birth defects and life altering illnesses happen. I get the genetic side of it from a scientific perspective, but....victims of earthquakes, hufficains, flooding, and wildfire. Those are all natural things that just happen. God created the world, the heavens, earth, water, wind, snow, light and the darkness was already there right? But why?

We are given free will, so that explains how people can do bad things to people. And he for whatever reason allows people to be victims in domestic violence, murder, school shootings, mass public shootings, victims of sex crimes and child abuse are allowed to go on under the ruler of god. Seemingly with no consequences under that ruling, that we, the victims, will ever see.

Are we really expected to simply forgive all those who have sined against us with no closure? Yeah that’s really hard to do, nobody said it’s easy to be a good Christian. But that’s what’s expected of us? I have a hard time with it sometimes. Not saying your wrong, and I wana believe in what you say, but also have a hard time buying in on that.

God has jos reasons, he has his plan and a purpose for what happens,our lives are laid down before him for him to use and direct us through life. Yet when we’re faced with repeated events that challenge our wellbeing, health and safety as a result of natural events......why do these things happen? Is god pissed off at the world? If so then why take it out on all of the people instead of the ones he said pissed off at? He said supposed to be all forgiving. I don’t get it.

People comittint atrocities will get their due when they pass. I get that, but does that allow them a free pass tomdomwhat they want until then? A lot like a guy doing life in prison, with no chance for parole, and committing rape to satisfy his own personal physical needs. And the consequences are what after death?

I do believe in god, I really do, but this is an area I really struggle with, and from my own personal life I look at people and think to myself if those who have sined against me, whatever consequences they receive while on earth, are completely irrelevant to the real consequences they’ll receive after death, if any consequences at all.

All I can do is think about it, and I try not to dwell to much on it, but it does come up from time to time. And I have a hard time forgiving those people. And if they beg for forgiveness their sins will be forgiven, and enter the kingdom of god. But what about the “me” part of that equation?

Not trying to create a debate here, more like I’d like a really good reasonable answer, if there is one, in an easy way to understand.

Just hard to wrap my head around all the bad stuff that happens to good people, in an all forgiving world with a loving god

Sorry to ramble, thanks for reading

First of all, there are perspective issues that are in the wrong place. Imagine the Earth as an ally of God, when sin entered it, it suffered as well and so natural disasters crept in (and scientifically it is due to the change in environment from what it used to be at the beginning) and thus allows for natural disasters to occur. The key component that you are stuck in is the idea that God is the one causing these things to happen. When he isn't. Sometimes it's the result of how the world works. God may have His finger in it, in the positive things that come from the disaster, such as allowing people to be rescued miraculously or some may become closer to Him etc. It's not a case of I'm angry i'm gonna wipe you out like you suggest.

Also, keep in mind that the darkside, although not as powerful as God, can still tempt humans to do horrible things and create spiritual attack. The abusive things that people do come from the god of this world - Satan. And for those people who die in their sins, then after death they are separated from God, as no sin can enter His presence. They may have everything they want in this life, but it is meaningless when they cannot take it with them when they die and if they are separated from God.

What is being said, however, is similar to the time of Jesus. The Jewish people expected the Saviour to liberate them from Rome, make the Jewish nation a great one and always have plenty of food. But those physical things are not what matters. As even those who ate from Jesus' hand only cared about being fed and not about Him. But Jesus did not rescue them from Rome (although His influence led to women's rights, children's rights, charity and many other things) but he did rescue them from their sin. Which is a much greater gift.

And yes forgiveness can be hard. Yet even Jesus forgave those who mocked and killed him. This is also because if you harbour resentment and unforgiveness it will make you a bitter person as opposed to a loving one. Yet we are forgiven for the bad things we do. Do you realise that all of us are guilty of sin? And whilst in our human eyes there may be different levels of what is wrong, to God we are all sinners and deserving of death. That is what makes His sacrifice such a great one, because He died in our place.

So if someone wrongs you and does find God, you should be happy, because the "me" part of the equation is that it isn't about us, but about the glory of God and how someone who was lost has now found life in His name. But even in the midst of bad things, and you know I've faced many myself, He is there to guide us, comfort us and use us to achieve His purpose. You can know that He loves you, because we have access to God and can have a relationship with Him.

This world and its desires will fade away, but His Kingdom shall last forever (Matthew 24:35, 1 John 2:17)

[Living For Love]

Well god made humans and the Earth, so he should gave us nice bodies, and a nice world.
That's what a kind god would do.
You didn't answer my question. I'm also trying to avoid using the argument "evil was introduced in the world by men", which although true, I just was trying to approach this situation in a more racional way.

If a person is about to abuse, rape, or murder an innocent child, yes I would like that person sent to hell immediately.
That's what a caring god would do.


He doesn't have to control everyone's mind, we can still have free-thought & free-will.
But as soon as someone makes the conscious decision to commit such an atrocity, that person should go to hell before they even get the chance to do so.
No-one should have to suffer on Earth because of someone else's decision to be an asshole.
That's what a fair god would do.
Shouldn't that person have a second chance, though? Like, you want to banish them to hell because of one mistake/action? This is akin to death penalty. Also, where do we draw the line. You're in favour of banishing to hell in murder, rape and abuse, but what about stealing, or financial corruption?

If god doesn't like human suffering, then he should stop letting innocent people suffer, and punish the "sinners".
We're all sinners. To quote Milton Friedman, "thank God we don't get what we deserve".


[LIST=1]
Innocent children are receiving punishment. (Disease, Defects, Starvation, Rape, Abuse, Murder etc.)
Would you be okay if those things happened to adults, or you're just against it if they happen to children?

If god wanted me to love him, he should at least give me a reason to.
All he would have to do is show me he is kind, just, & loving. An easy task for an all-powerful god.
Why should I love or obey a god who lets innocent children suffer?
What kind of practical evidence would you need from God is order to believe and love him?

What you are saying suggests that god is presenting us with an ultimatum: "Everyone on Earth shall love & obey me, or I will make you all suffer."
This sounds like an abusive and cruel god.
It's more like "you have chosen not to love and obey me, so now you're on your own".

[maddogmj77]

First of all, there are perspective issues that are in the wrong place. Imagine the Earth as an ally of God, when sin entered it, it suffered as well and so natural disasters crept in (and scientifically it is due to the change in environment from what it used to be at the beginning) and thus allows for natural disasters to occur. The key component that you are stuck in is the idea that God is the one causing these things to happen. When he isn't. Sometimes it's the result of how the world works. God may have His finger in it, in the positive things that come from the disaster, such as allowing people to be rescued miraculously or some may become closer to Him etc. It's not a case of I'm angry i'm gonna wipe you out like you suggest.
But god is all-powerful, so he should be able to stop hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, nuclear bombs, mass-shooting, birth defects, rape, murder, abuse, etc. etc. etc.
But he chooses to do nothing. He chooses to let innocent people suffer, even new-born babies.
Why should I love or obey a god like that? Does that sound like a loving god to you?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You didn't answer my question. I'm also trying to avoid using the argument "evil was introduced in the world by men", which although true, I just was trying to approach this situation in a more rational way.
Your question suggests that god made a world in which he was needed. God made an imperfect world where we are doomed to suffer, just so that he could have something to do.
What kind of god would do that?

Shouldn't that person have a second chance, though? Like, you want to banish them to hell because of one mistake/action? This is akin to death penalty. Also, where do we draw the line. You're in favor of banishing to hell in murder, rape and abuse, but what about stealing, or financial corruption?
Maybe, but I have yet to see one single person be sent to hell or stopped by god from committing atrocities. (Hitler, Pol Pot, Josez Stalin, Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong Un, Shooter in Las-Vegas, ISIS, 9/11 terrorists, etc. etc.)

I don't know where to put the line, but god has let millions of people die by the hands of one single person, and he still does nothing to them.
Where does god put the line? Does he have one at all? Why does he let innocent people suffer?

We're all sinners. To quote Milton Friedman, "Thank God we don't get what we deserve".
So new-born babies are sinners? And they deserve birth defects? Still-births?
What kind of all-loving god would do that?
He could easily stop them both, why doesn't he? Why did he let them happen in the first place?

Would you be okay if those things happened to adults, or you're just against it if they happen to children?
I'm saying that god doesn't protect the innocent, he lets even new-born babies suffer.
Why does god do this? Why should I love or obey a god who does this?
Does this sound like a fair, kind, or all-loving god?

What kind of practical evidence would you need from God is order to believe and love him?
He should be able to stop all innocent people from suffering, and show in some clear undeniable way that it was in fact an act of god.
Should be an easy task for an all-powerful god.
Why has he never done it? Why don't we have a single piece of evidence of god doing 'anything' to save innocent people? Why does god do nothing to protect the innocent?

It's more like "you have chosen not to love and obey me, so now you're on your own".
So what about the new-born babies born with birth defects? Or having Still-births? Why are innocent toddlers and children abused, raped & murdered?
They haven't even gotten the chance to love or obey god yet, and they are already being punished & suffering.
Why does god do this? Does he not care about the innocent? Why would an "all-loving" god think of us as ALL sinners?

[benbeny]

Hi, can someone enlighten me about doctrinal difference between Reformed/Calvinism and Lutheranism? Cause from what I've read, they're basically very similar.

[Stanley02]

do you not think it is ridiculous dedicating your life to ‘someone’ that has never been proven to exist? Why don’t you enjoy the life you currently have rather than waiting for your next one.

[lliam]

do you not think it is ridiculous dedicating your life to ‘someone’ that has never been proven to exist?.

Your theosophically approach is completely wrong.

This is about faith. And faith needs no proof. Consequently, it is nor was it ever necessary to prove the existence of God or of other gods in general.

On the contrary, those who want to prove God's existence are not true believers in any ways. They are pure doubters.


Unfortunately it's not always a voluntary decision whether you really dedicating your life to a deity, because it depends on how restrictive religious your education was, and so on.

... but this is your should be your very own decision.


Those decisions often are questioned affiliated bei others.

Imo, that is just as much a waste of time as it is the endless search for the proof of the existence of the divine.

[Living For Love]

do you not think it is ridiculous dedicating your life to ‘someone’ that has never been proven to exist? Why don’t you enjoy the life you currently have rather than waiting for your next one.
Who says we don't enjoy our lives? What's wrong with waiting for the next one? We all wait for death anyway, it's inevitable.

[hayley2003]

Why do some christians say the gay and bi people are going to hell? What proof do they have?

[Axrow]

Why do some christians say the gay and bi people are going to hell? What proof do they have?

I don't think it is supposed to be said that way. What sends people to hell is their choice to reject Him basically. So often when people choose to value sexuality, they reject the concept of being accountable to God.

[trackinglife]

Why do some christians say the gay and bi people are going to hell? What proof do they have?

Just curious but what proof do you have that they aren't?

[hayley2003]

Just curious but what proof do you have that they aren't?

innocent until proven guilty.
assume good, until demonstrated otherwise.

[trackinglife]

innocent until proven guilty.
assume good, until demonstrated otherwise.

Innocent until proven guilty is not assuming good until demonstrated otherwise. It is instead put in place in an attempt to prevent FALSE allegations from allowing arrests and fines and other punishments to someone who doesn't deserve them. Yes it is also sometimes used to help a guilty person get off charges with no punishment at all. But that wasn't what it was intended for. And in any case it is an American law (though certainly some other legal systems have it too) it has nothing at all to do with the higher moral law. Especially from a Christian perspective. From the Christian perspective we are all guilty (gays straight doesn't matter) it is only through accepting the free gift of grace from Jesus Christ that we can receive mercy rather than justice for our sin. But in order to receive that gift of grace you first have to admit to being a sinner. Which means you have to admit your guilt.

I mean you can choose not to believe any of that I am just giving you the Christian perspective in a sort of bare bones format. There is more to it than just that but its not a half bad summary.

[trackinglife]

innocent until proven guilty.
assume good, until demonstrated otherwise.

Oh also your original question already assumes guilt. As in they are guilty of being homosexual. What kind of punishment (if any at all) is deserved for being guilty of that was your question. So now to come back and say "well they aren't guilty of anything." Is sort of turning your original question back on itself and basically makes the question not worth asking because you have already assumed the answer. You're actually begging the question at that point. If you are not familiar with what begging the question is, I encourage you to look it up.

[hayley2003]

it not something that i can relate to, but thanks for providing your perspective.

[Music Lover]

Why do some christians say the gay and bi people are going to hell? What proof do they have?

Answer?

1st Corinthians 6:9-11
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (ESV translation)

Note that practicing homosexuality is but one category among many. And that it is about practicing homosexuality, not being being gay or not. But some people get confused.

As to if the word of the Bible is proof enough... Well for many Christians it is, me included ;)

[hayley2003]

Answer?

1st Corinthians 6:9-11
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (ESV translation)

Note that practicing homosexuality is but one category among many. And that it is about practicing homosexuality, not being being gay or not. But some people get confused.

As to if the word of the Bible is proof enough... Well for many Christians it is, me included ;)

thanks for your reply.

i would never tell gay person that they couldn't have sex with another gay person.

[Tim the Enchanter]

thanks for your reply.

i would never tell gay person that they couldn't have sex with another gay person.

I think my parents are understanding about it more, I don't think they would say gay people are going to hell. But I also think they wouldn't like it if I was gay.

[Music Lover]

thanks for your reply.

i would never tell gay person that they couldn't have sex with another gay person.

No problem :)

I wouldn't necessarily tell them that either, but just point out to them that it goes against what the Bible says. It is not my task to tell them what to do or not to do, since I am not the authority. I would just be the messenger and the authority would be God. If they want to live accordingly, they will take it to heart. Maybe not right away, but sometime.

[hayley2003]

i don't believe its wrong. i guess i need it to make sense beyond quoting the bible. the reason i say that is because people quote the bible justify all kind of things. it seem more like people believe whatever they want, then use the bible to tell other people they are wrong or bad or going to hell.

[Uniquemind]

i don't believe its wrong. i guess i need it to make sense beyond quoting the bible. the reason i say that is because people quote the bible justify all kind of things. it seem more like people believe whatever they want, then use the bible to tell other people they are wrong or bad or going to hell.

There are more specific reasons, partly because of disease controversies.

Think about it from a historical perspective, people who sleep around innthe ancient past for sti’s and std’s, what ancient people’s would’ve observed was death of loved ones and disease without them knowing an exact cause, they didn’t know about viruses, bacteria and prions (misfolded and defective proteins). The ancients just called it “uncleanliness” and in modern day we are going to have to return to prudish standards because antibiotics are beginning to fail humanity especially with Super gonorrhea and syphilis on the rise.

To get one of those diseases is a slow and painful and expensive medical process.

Also from the Christian perspective and I guess from some psychological/sociology studies on marriage happiness and satisfaction and why people cheat, it has been shown that people who are promiscuous or have had positive sexual encounters with the person(s) they did not marry often reflect on alternative partner memories emotionally and sexually, especially if the marriage is entering a rough patch.

Even if it’s not a rough time in the relationship, there is a expectation that all relationships are always going to have that emotional high and that once the honeymoon phase of a relationship wears off, it means or is interpreted by one or both individuals that the love is gone hence breakup time.


It cheapens the concept of emotional and spiritual and physical bonding between two entities, symbolizing the joining of Christ to the body of the Church. Any symbolism that argues a weakening of that bond is implying weakness in God’s promise to redeem humanity from its evil nature.

Now keep in mind, all the Abrahamic faiths use the word Good = in terms of perfect, and Evil in terms of imperfect.

—

In modern day we have the pill and shot, but understand that by taking them we do pollute the environment by peeing out estrogens into the water system and increase risk of having a stroke.

There are a handful of teen girls even on YouTube who have testified that medical products like Gardasil and birth control pills gave them a debilitating stroke or paralysis.

I believe in 2013 too, there was a defect in birth control drug manufacturing too which mispackaged the placebo pill order with the ones containing the hormones, so a lot of girls and women got pregnant thinking they were having safe bearback sex but were not in reality.

It’s a very awkward position to be impregnated by a guy categorized as a good fling physically, but definitely not the type to start a family with, the other option is abortion or single motherhood.

[hayley2003]

so you're saying gay sex is wrong too. WOW that really susprises me that you would say that.

Are you are expecting them to somehow change or pretend to be not gay, then if they want sex they need to marry somebody that is opposite sex; somebody nice, but not somebody the really love. that just seems like they would be faking everything so they appear normal, but not be who they really are deep inside. It kinda seems like your say gay people are broken people, and they need to fix themselves.

That seems like a lot to expect from gay people. from what i've know, being gay is something people are born to be, kinda like being right or left handed, or having a specific eye color. these are things people can't change no matter how much they try. imagine if some holy book said "only people who are right handed are acceptable". that would be crazy, but lots of right handed people would believe it and tell left handed people they are going to hell.

[Uniquemind]

so you're saying gay sex is wrong too. WOW that really susprises me that you would say that.

Are you are expecting them to somehow change or pretend to be not gay, then if they want sex they need to marry somebody that is opposite sex; somebody nice, but not somebody the really love. that just seems like they would be faking everything so they appear normal, but not be who they really are deep inside. It kinda seems like your say gay people are broken people, and they need to fix themselves.

That seems like a lot to expect from gay people. from what i've know, being gay is something people are born to be, kinda like being right or left handed, or having a specific eye color. these are things people can't change no matter how much they try. imagine if some holy book said "only people who are right handed are acceptable". that would be crazy, but lots of right handed people would believe it and tell left handed people they are going to hell.

But that’s not what I’m saying either.

We don’t know what causes homosexuality, science has suggested that the environment and mutations in the DNA have a huge factor to play in sexual identity, sexual orientation, so I think it’s wrong to say it’s “choice”.

Which is the common current mainstream interpretation of the faith.


For instance the faith has to reinterpret certain concepts such as the intersex gender; individuals who are at a cellular level XY in chromosomal levels. But they physically could have female genitals due to how the physical human body develops.


Gender and sexual orientation are too simplified in most modern day understanding and that’s part of the problem.

—

Now my personal views on things is that gender is a partial spiritual and also physical phenomena, and a level before gender exists everyone comes from the same source from what created all things, hence a infinity.

There are many instances where I am questioning certain current interpretation of Christianity because of personal experiences. Also the phenomena of paranormal hauntings is something that does not always make sense with some verses of scripture about what happens when you pass away. Some feel your allowed to linger, others believe you cross over immediately upon death.


And for non-believers, if they truly are non-believers, then as long as their earthly rights aren’t being infringed upon in life in the here and now then where really is the problem?

It seems to me most strife and trouble occurs at a point where a minority group has real lawful action taken against them at a discriminatory level; but that’s always been a case for politics and law, not faith.


To be fair Christianity is so strict you’re not even supposed to make a for-profit business selling Christian themed merchandise because that’s why Jesus flipped the money changers out of the temple.


So there’s a lot of strict stuff to Christianity, that everyone doesn’t practice right.

[Music Lover]

so you're saying gay sex is wrong too. WOW that really susprises me that you would say that.

The world and its inhabitants are pretty diverse. This will not be the first time you will be surprised :lol:

Are you are expecting them to somehow change or pretend to be not gay,

No. They do not need to pretend to be something they are not.

And if they want to change, then they can do so. But I will not be making any decision for them on the matter.

then if they want sex they need to marry somebody that is opposite sex;

That can also be said of people who wait until marriage ;)

And there are many good reasons to wait until you are married to have sex other than "The Bible says so"

It kinda seems like your say gay people are broken people, and they need to fix themselves.

They don't need to do anything. Nobody is forcing anyone or making any choices for anyone.

Are gay people broken sexually? Sure. How about others? Sexual abuse victims are broken sexually. Sexual aggressors are broken sexually. Playboys are broken sexually. Heck, I am broken sexually.

Are some people more broken than others? Obviously.

The challenging question is: What if you never experience 'healing' even if you desperately want it? That is a tough one and something I don't have an answer to.

That seems like a lot to expect from gay people.

Of course. God's standard is called perfection. That is something that no human can achieve, no matter how hard they try. Works will not get you into Heaven.

The good news is that Jesus lived a perfect life and died on the cross and saved us from sure damnation.

from what i've know, being gay is something people are born to be, kinda like being right or left handed, or having a specific eye color.

Every trait in human beings supposedly has a genetic and environmental factor, in differing amounts. Eye color would be one predominantly affected by genes, but the environment can induce slight changes too.

I am not aware of many studies that go into how the balance is with homosexuality, but one thing I do know is that there are numerous cases of identical twins having lived in the same environment, but one is straight and the other is gay.

these are things people can't change no matter how much they try.

People have changed their sexual preferences over time. That is not at all abnormal and there are many cases of people making a shift in either direction.
Also, changes can happen within a gender, for example starting to like a different type of girl or different type of guy.

imagine if some holy book said "only people who are right handed are acceptable". that would be crazy, but lots of right handed people would believe it and tell left handed people they are going to hell.

That would be crazy, yes. There is not an ideal 'handedness'.
But there is a strong case to be made for the concept of an ideal sexual relationship. There is a lot of hard data on the superiority of monogamy, for example. I have not read up on studies on sexual orientation for a long time, though.


And for non-believers, if they truly are non-believers, then as long as their earthly rights aren’t being infringed upon in life in the here and now then where really is the problem?

This.

To be fair Christianity is so strict you’re not even supposed to make a for-profit business selling Christian themed merchandise because that’s why Jesus flipped the money changers out of the temple.

To be fair, it could also mean that they were charging rip-off prices for some special "temple-approved" sacrificial animals.
The Bible is not anti-profit. Matthew 25:18 and onwards has a story where an employer praises his servants for making profits and scolds one for not doing so.

So there’s a lot of strict stuff to Christianity, that everyone doesn’t practice right.

True. And there is also many denominations that make up rules that cannot be found in the Bible.

[hayley2003]

hi music lover, what you say is different than the church we go to. what you say is the god has lots and lots conditions that people need to meet, otherwise they are rejected by god. and depending who you talk to, and what church, those conditions are different. each seems to say they are more right then others.

the church i go suggests that god accepts everybody unconditionally. nobody goes to hell, if such a place even exists.

[Uniquemind]

The world and its inhabitants are pretty diverse. This will not be the first time you will be surprised :lol:



No. They do not need to pretend to be something they are not.

And if they want to change, then they can do so. But I will not be making any decision for them on the matter.



That can also be said of people who wait until marriage ;)

And there are many good reasons to wait until you are married to have sex other than "The Bible says so"



They don't need to do anything. Nobody is forcing anyone or making any choices for anyone.

Are gay people broken sexually? Sure. How about others? Sexual abuse victims are broken sexually. Sexual aggressors are broken sexually. Playboys are broken sexually. Heck, I am broken sexually.

Are some people more broken than others? Obviously.

The challenging question is: What if you never experience 'healing' even if you desperately want it? That is a tough one and something I don't have an answer to.



Of course. God's standard is called perfection. That is something that no human can achieve, no matter how hard they try. Works will not get you into Heaven.

The good news is that Jesus lived a perfect life and died on the cross and saved us from sure damnation.



Every trait in human beings supposedly has a genetic and environmental factor, in differing amounts. Eye color would be one predominantly affected by genes, but the environment can induce slight changes too.

I am not aware of many studies that go into how the balance is with homosexuality, but one thing I do know is that there are numerous cases of identical twins having lived in the same environment, but one is straight and the other is gay.



People have changed their sexual preferences over time. That is not at all abnormal and there are many cases of people making a shift in either direction.
Also, changes can happen within a gender, for example starting to like a different type of girl or different type of guy.



That would be crazy, yes. There is not an ideal 'handedness'.
But there is a strong case to be made for the concept of an ideal sexual relationship. There is a lot of hard data on the superiority of monogamy, for example. I have not read up on studies on sexual orientation for a long time, though.



This.



To be fair, it could also mean that they were charging rip-off prices for some special "temple-approved" sacrificial animals.
The Bible is not anti-profit. Matthew 25:18 and onwards has a story where an employer praises his servants for making profits and scolds one for not doing so.



True. And there is also many denominations that make up rules that cannot be found in the Bible.

Actually, Matthew 25:18, is of itself a parable talking about growing the faith and uses the capitalistic profit metaphor, to illustrate a point because listeners needed to have a concept to understand and relate to.

Profit isn’t in of itself bad no, but there are other versus of scripture where the laws of the market are not followed.

I forget where exactly but there is a verse of scripture where a business is forced to take a monetary loss on product not fully paid for according to earthly law, and it is implied that a resentful heart about material things, serves mammon.

It creates a contradiction if you interpret Matthew they way you have.

[Music Lover]

Actually, Matthew 25:18, is of itself a parable talking about growing the faith and uses the capitalistic profit metaphor, to illustrate a point because listeners needed to have a concept to understand and relate to.

Yes, it is a parable. And I still think that it portrays profit (assuming it is honestly earned) as good.

Profit isn’t in of itself bad no, but there are other versus of scripture where the laws of the market are not followed.

I forget where exactly but there is a verse of scripture where a business is forced to take a monetary loss on product not fully paid for according to earthly law, and it is implied that a resentful heart about material things, serves mammon.

I remember a few verses that could be this, but none that fit like a glove into your description. If you find the specific verse you mean I'd be glad to talk more on this :)

It creates a contradiction if you interpret Matthew they way you have.

Where is the contradiction? I do not find any.

hi music lover, what you say is different than the church we go to. what you say is the god has lots and lots conditions that people need to meet, otherwise they are rejected by god.

This is only half of what I am saying. If Jesus didn't die for our sins being perfect would be the only way to get into Heaven. This would be impossible for anyone to do.

Because Jesus died on the cross, we have the option of accepting him as our saviour and go to Heaven through him.

and depending who you talk to, and what church, those conditions are different. each seems to say they are more right then others.

That is why there is a bible verse 1st Thessalonians 5:21
"but test everything; hold fast what is good."

This applies to what a pastor preaches and what fellow Christians speak. The arguments that are good will hold up.

the church i go suggests that god accepts everybody unconditionally. nobody goes to hell, if such a place even exists.

God accepts everyone, but not everyone will accept God.
The Bible is clear that not everyone is saved and some people go to Hell (or whatever you want to name it).

Examples:

Matthew 25:41-43
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’"

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-9
"since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away fromb the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

Matthew 3:11-12
"“I [John the baptist] baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”"

John 3:18
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Matthew 13:41-43
"The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

If a church wants to say that everyone is saved and nobody goes to Hell, they have to literally reject the recorded teachings of Jesus that can be found in the Bible.

[Uniquemind]

Matthew 19:24


For one creates a contradiction with the other passage of Matthew you mentioned above if interpreted as a justification of profit.


Also notice how those who interpret the justification of profit do not place limit caps on to a beg the question scenario of at what point does profit become the sin of greed?

In the same way that sex is not inherently evil, but when done as a philosophy to chase hedonism and pleasure, does it become imbalanced sin because one no longer is it about chasing and building a loving relationship with God or fellow humans, but it becomes a thing of reproductive status and worldly exemplification of power, pride, and control.

The oneflesh, means oneflesh too, sex need not always result in offspring to be scantioned by God. Nor is it literally the amount of genitalia that have experienced touching other genitalalia...if that were the case the concept of remarriage would be banned too.


These concepts are not brought up in mostly churches I’ve gone too. It’s pastor speaks, congregation listens, nobody dares speak on a cerebral level.

[JustMyHumbleOpinion]

My question to all Christians is the concept of hell- a lot of Christians seem to think as long as someone believes in god and repent their sins, their in Heaven!
This scenario sums it up:

Lets say there is a good-willed and kind gay/bi guy who doesn't believe in god- HELL

Lets say there is a mass murderer and serial rapist, but he was baptized and fully believes in God.. And he repented - HEAVEN!

What about all those children in remote African countries who die in mass numbers- they didn't even have a chance or probably weren't even exposed to the bible, why should they burn in hell? Do you believe they should burn in hell?

If so why? Why should mass murderers who repent be sent to a paradise while innocent children burn in eternal hell-fire?

[Axrow]

My question to all Christians is the concept of hell- a lot of Christians seem to think as long as someone believes in god and repent their sins, their in Heaven!
This scenario sums it up:

Lets say there is a good-willed and kind gay/bi guy who doesn't believe in god- HELL

Lets say there is a mass murderer and serial rapist, but he was baptized and fully believes in God.. And he repented - HEAVEN!

What about all those children in remote African countries who die in mass numbers- they didn't even have a chance or probably weren't even exposed to the bible, why should they burn in hell? Do you believe they should burn in hell?

If so why? Why should mass murderers who repent be sent to a paradise while innocent children burn in eternal hell-fire?


Firstly, children and those who do not have the capacity to understand go to heaven anyway.

Secondly, what is good? People can be good in human standards, but not be acceptable to God. This is because we are all sinners and only His grace can save us. If we are not covered by His grace then we are accountable for our own sins. And as we all sin we would be guilty of sin and unable to enter His presence. So it isn't about the human standards of what is good that lead to heaven or hell, but about who is accountable for the sin: either ourselves or Jesus.

[JustMyHumbleOpinion]

Firstly, children and those who do not have the capacity to understand go to heaven anyway.

Secondly, what is good? People can be good in human standards, but not be acceptable to God. This is because we are all sinners and only His grace can save us. If we are not covered by His grace then we are accountable for our own sins.

Okay that first sentence is nice to know, but i think good/bad in some cases in pretty obvious..
A selfless person who is good willed= Good
A murderer/rapist with no remorse= Bad
But who cares about being kind in life because Jesus.

With that view, why be kind? Why don't i just go and murder millions of people? It'll all be cool in the end as long as i repent and worship the lord.

[Spooky_Eli]

Okay that first sentence is nice to know, but i think good/bad in some cases in pretty obvious..
A selfless person who is good willed= Good
A murderer/rapist with no remorse= Bad
But who cares about being kind in life because Jesus.

With that view, why be kind? Why don't i just go and murder millions of people? It'll all be cool in the end as long as i repent and worship the lord.IT doesn't work like that, you'd have to be truly sorry for what you did for a start

[JustMyHumbleOpinion]

IT doesn't work like that, you'd have to be truly sorry for what you did for a start

What if i was though? I'd be given a free pass to heaven while the other 70% of the world rots in hell.

What a loving god eh? Forgiveness, lets just burn 8 billion people who didn't worship me.

[Spooky_Eli]

What if i was though? I'd be given a free pass to heaven while the other 70% of the world rots in hell.

What a loving god eh? Forgiveness, lets just burn 8 billion people who didn't worship me.i'm not defending it.

[InternetTeen]

Do you believe in hell?
Do aethists get accepted into heaven if it exists?

[Axrow]

Okay that first sentence is nice to know, but i think good/bad in some cases in pretty obvious..
A selfless person who is good willed= Good
A murderer/rapist with no remorse= Bad
But who cares about being kind in life because Jesus.

With that view, why be kind? Why don't i just go and murder millions of people? It'll all be cool in the end as long as i repent and worship the lord.

Ah but that's the thing. It is not obvious. Cause where does that morality come from? Is it relative? Cause for some people they might not see anything wrong with killing. So if morality is objective, it has to be imposed by something outside of it and something that can follow it. That means that we are under that law and accountable for our own sins, as all of us fall short of maintaining perfection. Being kind is not ignored as in coming to Jesus, people change to become more like Him. You can't just premeditate murder with the intention of going to God, because He knows our heart. In knowing our hearts too someone who wants to commit mass murder generally would not turn to him as their hearts are hardened/selfish etc. And if they did, they would be inclined to want to repay the people they wronged and help others if they were to have new life in Him.