The hypocrisy of the EU

[Stronk Serb]

The European Union has signalled it is unlikely to intervene in the crisis unfolding in Spain over Catalan independence, saying it must respect the constitution of the country.

The Spanish government has said the planned referendum is illegal and on Wednesday arrested 14 senior officials, seized ballot papers and raided the homes of the Catalan separatists suspected of coordinating the vote, due to take place on 1 October.

The head of Catalonia’s pro-separatist government has claimed the national government’s actions amount to the creation of a “de facto state of emergency” in the region. Meanwhile, thousands of protesters have taken to the streets in support of Catalan secession.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-referendum-eu-not-involve-spain-independence-crisis-catalan-separatists-police-ballot-a7959696.html


So if Catalonia wants to seceede, it is totally okay to send the police against them because it's all dandy according to the constitution, but in Kosovo's case, Serbia cannot excercise her right of protectng her territorial integrity just like Spain can? I am sort of glad this happens because that might give our politicians leverage when dealing with these snakes.

Goddamn hypocrites.

[mattsmith48]

I don't know anything about Kosovo and Serbia so I can't say if its really hypocrisy or just a false equivalence. But I do think there is hypocrisy not only from the EU, but the entire western world, I said after the referendum a couple weeks ago that if this had happen in the Middle East a few hours they are drones passing over that country bombing the shit out of them.

The reason the EU took Spain's side on this is they fear that an independent Catalonia could potentially leave the EU.

[Living For Love]

The reason the EU took Spain's side on this is they fear that an independent Catalonia could potentially leave the EU.
An independent Catalonia wouldn't even be part of the EU after gaining independence in the first place. They would have to apply for membership like any other European state.

[mattsmith48]

An independent Catalonia wouldn't even be part of the EU after gaining independence in the first place. They would have to apply for membership like any other European state.

Better explanation of why they are on Spain's side. Thank you for clearing that up. :)

[Living For Love]

As far as Kosovo is concerned, from what I gathered, the declaration of independence of Kosovo did not breach any international law. On the other hand, the separatists in Kosovo (KLA) were always supported by NATO.

[lliam]

If the Catalans absolutely want their own state, then Spain and France should support this. The EU even too. I'm even in favor of Bavaria being a state of its own. Or Hesse.

[Living For Love]

If the Catalans absolutely want their own state, then Spain and France should support this. The EU even too. I'm even in favor of Bavaria being a state of its own. Or Hesse.
And why should they support it?

[lliam]

Isn't that obvious? Imo, the majority will of an ethnic group must count more than historically justified claims, which are mostly just based on assimilation and similar reasons.

[Living For Love]

Isn't that obvious? Imo, the majority will of an ethnic group must count more than historically justified claims, which are mostly just based on assimilation and similar reasons.
There is no evidence that the majority of the Catalans want independence. I'd dare to say the majority do not want it, but you simply have no proof. Your argument is, thus, null. Also, this is not solely about history. This is about the legality of the whole process, and also about the fact that Spain or the EU have nothing to win from the independence of Catalonia. Hence why they have absolutely no reason to support it.

[mattsmith48]

There is no evidence that the majority of the Catalans want independence. I'd dare to say the majority do not want it, but you simply have no proof. Your argument is, thus, null. Also, this is not solely about history. This is about the legality of the whole process, and also about the fact that Spain or the EU have nothing to win from the independence of Catalonia. Hence why they have absolutely no reason to support it.

92% of Catalans voted yes, that's pretty good evidence they want Independence.

[azurzg]

Serbia cannot excercise her right of ...

her right?

[lliam]

And even if the Catalans had voted only to 30% for independence ... I just posted my general opinion on this topic. We could as well talk about Scotland, Northern Ireland etc..


And quite specifically, a seperation of Catalonia is, of course, obviously a loss for Spain. I suppose there will be little change for the EU. Whether an independent Catalonia now decides to become a member of the EU or not.


I believe that sticking to national stuff in a world of real existential globalism is only a transfigured folklore and rather weakens states, e.g. in case of those so-called global players, as it can strengthen them. Cultural identity and independence can be preserved differently.

But when a smaller ethnic group decides to be an independent nation, I will always respect and support it, even though I think that this quest is fundamentally pointless or such.

[Living For Love]

92% of Catalans voted yes, that's pretty good evidence they want Independence.
92% of a 43% turnout, so that's like 39-40% of the whole population of Catalonia.

And even if the Catalans had voted only to 30% for independence ... I just posted my general opinion on this topic. We could as well talk about Scotland, Northern Ireland etc..
Just want to say Catalonia's situation is very different from Scotland's.

And quite specifically, a seperation of Catalonia is, of course, obviously a loss for Spain. I suppose there will be little change for the EU. Whether an independent Catalonia now decides to become a member of the EU or not.
The main problem is how Catalonia's independence can fuel other separatist movements throughout Europe.

But when a smaller ethnic group decides to be an independent nation, I will always respect and support it, even though I think that this quest is fundamentally pointless or such.
Even if it goes against national or international law?

[mattsmith48]

92% of a 43% turnout, so that's like 39-40% of the whole population of Catalonia.

And?

Just want to say Catalonia's situation is very different from Scotland's.

What difference? Beside a referendum for Scottish independence doesn't end with the British PM sending the police in riot gear to kick the shit out of people trying to vote.

The main problem is how Catalonia's independence can fuel other separatist movements throughout Europe.

Like who? And wasn't Brexit suppose to do that?

Even if it goes against national or international law?

What law did they break?

[Living For Love]

And?
And we're not sure what's the opinion of the remaining 57% of the population.


What difference? Beside a referendum for Scottish independence doesn't end with the British PM sending the police in riot gear to kick the shit out of people trying to vote.
The difference is that the Scottish referendum happened within legal parameters, and both the UK and the EU would respect its result.

Like who? And wasn't Brexit suppose to do that?
Like these (http://www.voxeurop.eu/files/images/brief/sepa1.png). You mean the main goal of Brexit was to influence other countries to leave the EU?

What law did they break?
The Spanish Constitution. The Spanish King also accused Catalonia of treason, not sure if that can be considered a crime.

[mattsmith48]

And we're not sure what's the opinion of the remaining 57% of the population.

So no referendum is valid unless the turnout is atlease 50%?

If you don't

The difference is that the Scottish referendum happened within legal parameters, and both the UK and the EU would respect its result.

Well the EU knew that a Independent Scotland would most likely stay in the EU and the UK would look kinda bad to not let Scotland declare its independence after all the countries that left before.

Like these (http://www.voxeurop.eu/files/images/brief/sepa1.png). You mean the main goal of Brexit was to influence other countries to leave the EU?

That's a lot of countries.

The main goal of Brexit was the UK leaving the EU. People feared that it could lead to more countries leaving, but beside maybe France when they almost elected Marine Le Pen, I don't think there is anyone who got even close of maybe leaving.

The Spanish Constitution. The Spanish King also accused Catalonia of treason, not sure if that can be considered a crime.

Name one country that as written in their constitution a legal way for any part of said country to have a referendum and declare independence.

Treason? It's not like they are trying to leave to join an enemy of Spain or that they launch a military attack against Spain plunging the country into a civil war. If it comes to that sure we can talk about treason, but until then not really.

[Living For Love]

So no referendum is valid unless the turnout is atlease 50%?

If you don't
No, that's not what I said. My initial point was to counter Liam's argument that the majority of the population wanted independence. I just stated that we have no solid evidence that a majority wants it.

Name one country that as written in their constitution a legal way for any part of said country to have a referendum and declare independence.
I don't know, but in Spain's case, the constitution does not allow secession or referendums. In Scotland's case, the referendum itself was valid because it didn't pose a threat to the Union.

Treason? It's not like they are trying to leave to join an enemy of Spain or that they launch a military attack against Spain plunging the country into a civil war. If it comes to that sure we can talk about treason, but until then not really.
I actually read an article before about the supposed independent Catalonia's capacity of acquiring nuclear weapons and proceed to use them against Spain. It was just a supposition, but yes, it could eventually happen.

[mattsmith48]

No, that's not what I said. My initial point was to counter Liam's argument that the majority of the population wanted independence. I just stated that we have no solid evidence that a majority wants it.

So why can't a 92% of the vote with a 43% turnout can't be evidence that the majority of Catalans wants independence? Even if more people against it had showed up that is still a big deficit to erase and its with out counting the people for independence who were to busy getting beat up by the police to vote.

I don't know, but in Spain's case, the constitution does not allow secession or referendums. In Scotland's case, the referendum itself was valid because it didn't pose a threat to the Union.

In what way it wasn't a threat?

[ShineintheDark]

In terms of the EU's intervention in Kosovo and not Catalonia, we do have to respect that the referendum WAS illegal in Spain, whether we actually support their independence or not whereas I very much doubt it was as clear in Kosovo. That's the entire point in fact (and I've read up on this so my knowledge isn't perfect). Catalonia's independence declaration was directly in violation with Spain's constitution so the EU had no basis to step in and stop Spain from crushing it. However, Kosovo's legality is still disputed to this day with no clear answer as there is no precedent or law that directly calls it illegal. Therefore, it's only fair the EU steps in to prevent any sort of backlash by Serbia in case it ends up being unjustified and therefore sparks conflict between the 2 potential nations.

[Living For Love]

So why can't a 92% of the vote with a 43% turnout can't be evidence that the majority of Catalans wants independence? Even if more people against it had showed up that is still a big deficit to erase and its with out counting the people for independence who were to busy getting beat up by the police to vote.
Not sure what you mean. 39% is hardly a majority.


In what way it wasn't a threat?
Because Scotland wanted to remain in the EU after getting independence, and no one was against that. The referendum was legal and didn't cause social or economic turmoil. None of this is happening in Spain.

[Stronk Serb]

As far as Kosovo is concerned, from what I gathered, the declaration of independence of Kosovo did not breach any international law. On the other hand, the separatists in Kosovo (KLA) were always supported by NATO.

Yes, but Kosovo breached Serbian law. The National Assembly did not approve the refferendum and does not approve the refferendum results.

her right?

Yes.

In terms of the EU's intervention in Kosovo and not Catalonia, we do have to respect that the referendum WAS illegal in Spain, whether we actually support their independence or not whereas I very much doubt it was as clear in Kosovo. That's the entire point in fact (and I've read up on this so my knowledge isn't perfect). Catalonia's independence declaration was directly in violation with Spain's constitution so the EU had no basis to step in and stop Spain from crushing it. However, Kosovo's legality is still disputed to this day with no clear answer as there is no precedent or law that directly calls it illegal. Therefore, it's only fair the EU steps in to prevent any sort of backlash by Serbia in case it ends up being unjustified and therefore sparks conflict between the 2 potential nations.

The referendum is illegal in Serbia too. I mean I cannot understand the EU's decision. The KLA is a criminal organisation by the definition. Organ trade, drug smuggling, arms smuggling, ethnic cleansing. The EU supports a state built on war crimes but disapprove of Catalonia which caused no problem, except the referendum thing. That is the hypocrisy I want to point out.

[mattsmith48]

Not sure what you mean. 39% is hardly a majority.

The important part is not the turnout or the percentage of the overall population, but the result of the referendum.

Because Scotland wanted to remain in the EU after getting independence, and no one was against that. The referendum was legal and didn't cause social or economic turmoil. None of this is happening in Spain.

Well it wasn't really legal because there is no official legal way for a country to leave the UK it's more a matter of they don't give a shit, they were fine with Scotland trying.

[ShineintheDark]

The referendum is illegal in Serbia too. I mean I cannot understand the EU's decision. The KLA was a criminal organisation by the definition. Organ trade, drug smuggling, arms smuggling, ethnic cleansing. The EU supports a state built on war crimes but disapprove of Catalonia which caused no problem, except the referendum thing. That is the hypocrisy I want to point out.

Well first the KLA haven't actually existed as a group since 1999 so it's like disparaging the IRA for modern attacks in Ireland.
As for supporting a nation founded on war crimes, well most states we now look up to today for their liberties and power were once founded on wars and war crimes. Of course, the KLA carried out many attacks and actions that no one can be proud of and whilst Serbia may still have a right to claim Kosovo as her own, the Assembly of Kosovo exists currently as a separate entity that even Serbia herself is negotiating with as opposed to fighting with.

[Stronk Serb]

Well first the KLA haven't actually existed as a group since 1999 so it's like disparaging the IRA for modern attacks in Ireland.
As for supporting a nation founded on war crimes, well most states we now look up to today for their liberties and power were once founded on wars and war crimes. Of course, the KLA carried out many attacks and actions that no one can be proud of and whilst Serbia may still have a right to claim Kosovo as her own, the Assembly of Kosovo exists currently as a separate entity that even Serbia herself is negotiating with as opposed to fighting with.

We shouldn't. We shouldn't negotiate with criminals, while attrocities do ocurr in every war, here it was done for profit. Kosovo is now the hub for drug, arms, organs and people smuggling between Europe and Asia. According to the UN Security Council Resolution No. 1244, Kosovo is considered a part of Serbia and Serbia has a right to station a limited number of security forces on Kosovo. I would remilitarize Kosovo as soon as possiible before they build an army and get more international recognition.

[ShineintheDark]

We shouldn't. We shouldn't negotiate with criminals, while attrocities do ocurr in every war, here it was done for profit. Kosovo is now the hub for drug, arms, organs and people smuggling between Europe and Asia.
If this is indeed true then it's something that the UN and the Kosovo Assembly will have to directly deal with if they wish to have good relations with other nations as well as apply for any sort of legitimate recognition. Either way, this point is more an attack on Kosovo itself rather than an argument on its right of dissolution.


According to the UN Security Council Resolution No. 1244, Kosovo is considered a part of Serbia and Serbia has a right to station a limited number of security forces on Kosovo. I would remilitarize Kosovo as soon as possiible before they build an army and get more international recognition.
Like I said, I'm not going to be an expert on these matters. However, I'd argue back that the very same resolution also called for Serbian presence to be reduced to purely key border sites and patrimonial zones, in respect with a steady process of determining Kosovo's independence. The very same resolution demands that Serbia NOT remilitarize in Kosovo as that would directly harm the discussion process. Therefore, I don't think that particular resolution is very helpful for your case as it acts more as a help to Kosovo's independence and freedom than it really does for Serbia.

[Stronk Serb]

Like I said, I'm not going to be an expert on these matters. However, I'd argue back that the very same resolution also called for Serbian presence to be reduced to purely key border sites and patrimonial zones, in respect with a steady process of determining Kosovo's independence. The very same resolution demands that Serbia NOT remilitarize in Kosovo as that would directly harm the discussion process. Therefore, I don't think that particular resolution is very helpful for your case as it acts more as a help to Kosovo's independence and freedom than it really does for Serbia.

Yes, it demilitarizes most of Kosovo, but says that Serbia remains sovereign over Kosovo. That resolution is international law. It is violated now.

[ShineintheDark]

Yes, it demilitarizes most of Kosovo, but says that Serbia remains sovereign over Kosovo. That resolution is international law. It is violated now. In the context that circumstances have changed. When Kosovo declared independence in 2008, the International Court of Justice DID declare it as legal, even if Serbia feels differently. According to the Constitution, independence is not currently illegal under this stage as long as Kosovo law does not intercept Serbian law. Otherwise, the autonomy given by the UN Resolution is perfectly legal under international law.