Nobody gives me a chance, ever.

[brandon9]

Hey everyone, I'm Brandon. I'm new to this site, though I've been on other forums, not specifically for teens, in the last year and a half. I was hoping maybe advice from people in my age group might help me with the problem I face. I'm sorry this is really long, but I hope some people are kind enough to read it all, and if you do I thank you in advance! If not, I guess at least I've got some stuff off my chest.

I guess I'd better tell you a bit about myself first... I just recently turned 18, I'm a senior in high school and dual enrolled in my local community college, set to graduate with enough credits to enter as a sophomore next fall at the 4-year school I was accepted to. I've got a stable job working at a local grocery store, where I have been for over a year and a half now. I'm very mature for my age (most people who meet me think I'm in my 20s) and I admit that I'm not the most outgoing guy around; but I am honest to a fault, and genuinely care about people. I'm not an asshole unless you force me to be, I guess you could say. In modesty, I think I'm a pretty decent guy.

Despite my semi-decent perception of myself, and the fact that adults get along great with me, I've had a hell of a time with people in my own age group through my life. In middle school I was bullied relentlessly (the worst of which was having people spreading rumors that I was gay, which I am honest enough to admit, rightly or wrongly, have put me at a certain disposition of disliking homosexuality in general) which led me to getting into some pretty serious fights, suspended from school, having anger issues, the whole nine yards. I had two friends from 3rd grade through 8th grade (one moved my 7th grade year, the other later in 10th grade). I didn't gain a modicum of acceptance from my current group of "friends" until the latter part of 8th grade, and even still, I am always the only person never invited to hang out, go to parties, etc. etc.. I'm the "see you at school" guy to everyone I know. And, more to the purpose of this thread, I am convinced that no female on this earth will ever give a chance. And I've got a lot of evidence to back that theory up.

For the sake of transparency, I will say this; I am an 18 year old guy who has never had a girlfriend, never had sex, never even kissed a girl. This is not for a lack of trying - I am a naturally introverted (to a degree) person, and it takes a lot for me to open up to people. I have "liked" a total of 9 girls in my teenage years, 4 of which I was serious about. Of the 5 I was not really invested in, I was rejected word for word by each with "Why would I ever date you", "Hell no", "Fuck off", "Is this a joke", and "Yeah no". All of these were in middle school.

It wasn't until my 10th grade year that I really had my first true "feelings" for a girl. We met through a mutual friend, as she had just moved here from another state. (I will point out that this is the ONLY girl to ever approach me, versus me approaching her). This girl and I hit it off really well, talked all the time, went to some things like football games and such together, and I really liked her. We talked for three months, to me getting closer the entire while, and I decided to ask her to homecoming (something that I didn't do lightly, because I hate dancing but I wanted to take her as a gesture). When I asked her to homecoming, she was shocked, not realizing I wanted to be more than friends... she actually had thought I was gay the entire time we had known each other (via a rumor from one of the assholes from back in middle school). I was really hurt by that, and I totally shut myself down. I didn't talk to her for close to a year, and I didn't pursue anything with another girl for slightly longer than that. I was really crushed that the first girl I ever really wanted to date had done that. That being said, her and I are on decent terms now and talk occasionally, as I am friends with her current boyfriend.

The next girl I talked with was a girl that didn't go to my school, as she was homeschooled. I liked this girl, she was very nice and down to earth, but unfortunately our lifestyles were too radically different (her being from a very lower-class family and me from a upper-middle class, not sounding callous but it did make for some very awkward moments), as well as her essentially being a high school dropout due to her mom using two years of schooling money to pay off DUIs, and we did not end up working out. Of the four big "crushes" I've had in my life, this hurt the least, but it was still discouraging. As for how this turned out, she ended up meeting another guy and getting with him not long after we stopped talking. She's currently pregnant with his kid.

In December of last year, a girl started working at my store. Her father and brother also worked there, and I had trained her father, so him and I had a good relationship. When I met her (I'll refer to her as Katie to make this story easier), I did not know that Katie was his daughter, nor that she was 6.5 years older than me (17 at the time, she was 23). I figured she was about 19, and her and I really hit it off. We started a heavily flirty friendship that developed into what appeared to be a mutual attraction on a higher level. When my parents found out I was talking to her, they freaked out, I didn't care and kept talking to Katie, and eventually in February it all blew up. I found out she had been lying to me for a long time about how she felt, as she had a boyfriend from January onward, and I was really broken by that. We didn't speak until right before she quit working at my store in June. I just found out from her brother (who still works with me and is actually on good terms with me) that she is pregnant as well.

I sank into a bit of a depression after Katie, as the combination of finding out she wasn't who I thought she was, piled on top of other life circumstances, sent me to a really dark place. I went on some very low dose anti-anxiety/depression medication, but it didn't help that much. At the end of March, another girl started working with me, who I'll call Leah. She is a grade below me, a year and three months younger, and easily the most beautiful girl I have ever met.

Leah and I hit off immediately, somehow. I was not looking to find someone, and when I met her I had no idea of how the next six months would go, but Leah is easily the best thing that ever happened to me. She is the most amazing person I have ever met, everything about her speaks to me, she's literally the female version of myself. We became friends at the end of March, and that friendship snapped me out of my depression within a month and a half. I never told her that until much later, which I'll get to in a second, but she totally saved me from myself. And the more I got to know her, the more I found myself falling for her.

Our school's prom was at the end of April, and about a week before it was happening I decided to ask her. I was terrified to do it, and again I hate dances, but I thought it would make me look good and maybe get her to give me a chance, so I made my little scheme up and created a little poster and all that good shit to ask her. When I did, her reaction was not what I expected - she said no, but said that we could hang out that day instead. I accepted that as better than outright refusal, but later that night she told me that she said no because she had been talking to this guy Jordan (who I had played soccer with in the past, and is quite possibly the dumbest prick I've ever met in my life) for about a month and she didn't know whether she liked him more or me more. So that went up in the air for about three weeks, in which I just was myself and hoped she'd choose me. In the end, she chose him, and that really got me. But, somehow, her and I continued to be friends despite the high tension between Jordan and I (I'd happily have kicked his ass any day of the week and she knew it), and I became her sounding board for how much of a worthless shit her boyfriend was, which I had told her from day one.

I hate to compare it to this, but while her and Jordan were dating, Leah and I came about as close to a sort of affair as you can get. We actually talked about her breaking up with him and getting with me while she was with him, though it didn't happen. Apparently he felt pretty threatened by me, he was always asking her about me. He even took her phone on three occasions and started texting me, leading to totally barbed exchanges between us hidden under a guise of joking to keep Leah from realizing exactly how much we hated each other... And when they broke up in June, I was there for her as I always had been. We started hanging out a lot. I met her parents, was at her house a lot, we basically WERE dating without the title or physicality. So I waited another month, and in that time I realized that I actually loved her, more than anything. In the middle of July, I asked her if she'd date me for the second time. She said, among other things, that it's a bad idea to date her, that she didn't want to disappoint me, and that all she did to me was "fuck with my head" - and I told her about how she had snapped me out of depression, and I honestly told her that I loved her. She said she needed some time before another relationship, and if I still felt the same way in a few months, that we could talk about it then.

I let it rest until the end of August, and then broached the topic a third time. And this time, she told me she wouldn't date me because she wasn't attracted to me. I naturally blew up a bit, wondering why in the hell she had told me otherwise in the past, and it turned into a cussing match in which both of us pissed the other off so much that we didn't talk for three weeks. I was totally crushed by what she said, as I had never thought she'd be like that with me, and I started getting upset all the time. I cried, which I NEVER do, I was just fucked up. At the end of September we sort of reconciled, and I told her that I accept the fact I won't ever have a chance with her (to which she says is still a good thing because she's a shitty person to date), but honestly I'm lying to her and myself. It's created a strange dynamic now, where her and I tread lightly around the topic of how we used to be and how I feel, and when it comes up I kind of try to joke about it to avoid getting her fired up about it... but I still love her with every part of me. It's very hard to hide that fact.

In the course of accepting that, I decided after I turned 18 that I just needed to find another girl and try to move on from Leah, as focusing on her would only harm me. So I DM'ed a girl on instagram that I thought was interesting on Wednesday this week, and we've sort of been talking off and on since then (we'll actually meet in person on Monday), but I feel like she might not really be all that interested in me. She's been nice, but she takes HOURS to respond to me, the longest of which was a 13 hour span. That in itself is pretty discouraging, in a way. Especially when I see where she gets on instagram within the time she is not answering my message.

I feel like a total loser honestly, because I've got zero experience in a relationship at my age. I feel like a loser because every girl I have wanted to be with has strung me along and then rejected me with no regard to how much it kills me. I have severe trust issues with women because I have never had a good experience with them. And I can't help but wonder what the fuck is so wrong with me that nobody will ever give me a chance to just prove that I am a good guy, that I am actually a fun and cool person to be with, that I care. I feel like I'm cursed in a way - if I couldn't get the girl I actually love to give me a chance, what the hell chance do I have with anyone else? And how do I let HER go, because I can't keep holding on and I know it...? I feel like a really kind of worthless guy, like something HAS to be wrong with me for this cycle of rejection to keep repeating itself over and over again. I know I've made some mistakes, but I can't be deserving of the never-ending shitstorm that's defined my life.

Do I need to change something about myself before someone accepts me and gives me a chance? Or do people need to change the way they see and treat me?

[Uniquemind]

Your not doing anything wrong persay, it might be a vibe your giving off.

I suggest learning some skills that force you out of introversion and get you mixing with other within +5 and -3 of your age.

Learn to dance too pay to take lessons.

Maturity is all about doing things you don't like doing. Look for girls who are doing that kind of disciplined life building they're probably gonna be more mature.

Also do not get mad if a girl you find is not a virgin it screams misogyny in the modern era.

[Phosphene]

Never change who you are to be accepted by people; eventually you will find someone. When you approach a girl you like, remember that anyone is lucky to have you, and don't sell yourself short based on how other girls have treated you in the past.

[Uniquemind]

Let me also add that you need to "write-off" all the experiences of rejection girls gave you in middle-school.

It's very highly likely they are/were immature at that age and were EXTREMELY SUPERFICIAL.

Most middle-schoolers aren't what I call "full people" yet, out of every middle school there are maybe like 5 or less individuals who are as mature as a full grown adult in terms of temperment and emotional management and sensitivity to others.

It's all about reputation, image and perception for many in Jr. high, and even in high school.

[jamie_n5]

I am sorry that you have had bad experiences with your peers and girls. It sounds like to me that you have chosen the wrong girls in the past. I think first of all you need to love yourself and rebuild some confidence in yourself. We sound a lot alike in our younger years of growing up. But yes I am in fact gay and have accepted that in my life since I was 12. That has nothing to do with this other than I hope you can handle a gay guy trying to help you. I truly think that you have been through some bad experiences with girls. It is no fault of yours but I think you have just chosen girls with issues by some odd chance. Don't put yourself down and keep looking for a girl that is worthy of your affections. I really really think you sound like a great guy that has gotten some bad raps and run into the wrong girls. Keep up your confidence in yourself and I know the right girl will come along. Please feel free to PM me and I would very much like to talk and try help if I could. Good luck man.

[brandon9]

Uniquemind, thank you for responding first and foremost, I found your advice very helpful...how do I tell if I am giving off a vibe? As far as middle school, I don't concern myself really over those incidents, I mainly included those for reference that its been a longtime issue. That entire environment is so radically different that it almost makes no sense. Oh, and I don't care about if a girl is a virgin or not (though I would be a bit concerned if I learned she had sex with a excessive amount of guys) - the girl I was talking about last, "Leah", I know exactly how many times and with who she did have sex, she told me lol... I have always known the girl I met would most likely not be a virgin.

I'm still skeptical about the dancing, by the way lol.

Amethyst, thank you for offering your perspective on this, I found it kind of uplifting. I guess a bit of self worth has disappeared in the course of all these rejections and lead-me-ons I've experienced.

Jamie, the first thing I want to say is that I have no problem with you helping me, I am actually quite thankful for it! I'm actually pretty touched that you'd even take time out of your day to offer me advice, I mean that brother.

I guess I feel like I have become stuck in a never-ending cycle, you know? It seems unfair to a point of extremeism, like I feel I must be either choosing the wrong people, or reading the right people the wrong way. But then, I feel that the right person is there in front of me, but we're like fire and gasoline together and it never worked. I truly don't get it lol.

I am glad you seem to have a modicum of faith in my qualities as a human being, most people write me off as a dick, off and even online believe it or not. I think I would enjoy talking to you more, for a great number of reasons, not just related to this.

Triple posts merged; please use the edit function next time. ~Lost Horizon

[drhalsey1]

If I have learned anything it is summed up by this quote by Shakespeare, "to thine ownself be true." You should never change a decent characteristic of yourself to gain the satisfaction of another person, you should just be yourself as you see yourself, not how you think others see you, be the person you want, not what other people want from you, and if there are problems with it the fault is almost certainly there's for not being understanding, accepting, or willing to give chances. The ONLY thing anyone should ever change about themselves are mild flaws, see if you can maybe help your temper a little, see if you can find some source of happiness aside from a partner, mend yourself before trying to set yourself with someone else. To love someone you have to at least slightly know you're own worth and be able to love yourself, trust yourself, and be yourself.

[Uniquemind]

If I have learned anything it is summed up by this quote by Shakespeare, "to thine ownself be true." You should never change a decent characteristic of yourself to gain the satisfaction of another person, you should just be yourself as you see yourself, not how you think others see you, be the person you want, not what other people want from you, and if there are problems with it the fault is almost certainly there's for not being understanding, accepting, or willing to give chances. The ONLY thing anyone should ever change about themselves are mild flaws, see if you can maybe help your temper a little, see if you can find some source of happiness aside from a partner, mend yourself before trying to set yourself with someone else. To love someone you have to at least slightly know you're own worth and be able to love yourself, trust yourself, and be yourself.

That and having interests that force one out of introversion, gives a foundation to expand social relation network which introduces you to more people and increases the chance you'll meet someone.


Being a shut-in, will almost certainly doom you in a love life regardless of gender. The second nail in the coffin would be being seen as an angry aggressive person, or having a reputation of having done so in the past.

I'll tell you, girls talk about guys and who is a good egg and who is bad, if your a guy and you have a blacklist on you, you've got to repair that damage which guys don't do when they brood about their failures with women and then that anger coverts into misogyny.

And you also need to make peace with the fact you will just not be attractive to people after you do something like:

"Hey I like you wanna date?"

It's too sudden, there's no vetting process, it's highly likely your a stranger to them etc.

The ones who are most successful are successful because they're already known. It gives a sense of safety that's necessary for a healthy flirting environment.

It also sounds callous to say but just like how a guy won't stereotypically date a girl he finds physically unattractive, so too will girls not even entertain the thought of dating a guy who is personality-unattractive, and/or is not physically attractive to them.

I have one girl friend who I think her boyfriend is horrendous looking (I have never told her this) but I admit he is a sweet guy and I see the appeal and know her backstory.

What every girl looks for is gonna have variational differences, but the first one is always safety and security mixed with lust excitement and a sense of fun.


For me, I met my current partner on an airplane flight to see family, so ya never know.

[brandon9]

I mean I don't intentionally "shut myself in" - it's not for a lack of trying, in terms of general friendships, that nobody will hang out with me. I've had many incidences where I've asked somebody if they wanted to hang out, go do this or that, and have been told no. I'm not a "willing introvert" I guess you could say; at this point in my life, I've just become accustomed to being alone all the time.

As far as a stigma or blacklist over my head, I've drastically changed since those days of aggression. I had a particularly bad scare with it and it totally changed my stance in life, and even if people don't know me WELL, they know that I'm not looking to argue with anyone. People regularly tell me I am a nice/sweet guy, especially the people I work with, which of course does nothing to improve my understanding of why nobody wants to spend time with me, but that's another thing entirely... I'd also say I am not misogynistic, I don't hate women, I simply hate that I've been played every time I actually develop feelings for a girl.

I'm actually a shy person, especially with women, so "would you date me" out of the blue is definitely not my M.O. lol... it takes me awhile to open up. I have to feel a specific connection to someone before I even consider wanting to date them, if that makes sense. I definitely am not a "rush into it" guy, though neither am I a "6 years later" type of person.

I hope that doesn't come across as hostile in of itself or anything of the sort - I'm just trying to clarify myself, as much for myself as for others lol. I understand and deeply appreciate everything everyone has said.

[Uniquemind]

I mean I don't intentionally "shut myself in" - it's not for a lack of trying, in terms of general friendships, that nobody will hang out with me. I've had many incidences where I've asked somebody if they wanted to hang out, go do this or that, and have been told no. I'm not a "willing introvert" I guess you could say; at this point in my life, I've just become accustomed to being alone all the time.

As far as a stigma or blacklist over my head, I've drastically changed since those days of aggression. I had a particularly bad scare with it and it totally changed my stance in life, and even if people don't know me WELL, they know that I'm not looking to argue with anyone. People regularly tell me I am a nice/sweet guy, especially the people I work with, which of course does nothing to improve my understanding of why nobody wants to spend time with me, but that's another thing entirely... I'd also say I am not misogynistic, I don't hate women, I simply hate that I've been played every time I actually develop feelings for a girl.

I'm actually a shy person, especially with women, so "would you date me" out of the blue is definitely not my M.O. lol... it takes me awhile to open up. I have to feel a specific connection to someone before I even consider wanting to date them, if that makes sense. I definitely am not a "rush into it" guy, though neither am I a "6 years later" type of person.

I hope that doesn't come across as hostile in of itself or anything of the sort - I'm just trying to clarify myself, as much for myself as for others lol. I understand and deeply appreciate everything everyone has said.

Well take one step at a time. Get out and start developing talents, maybe a party trick or two. Maintain very good hygiene and then you'll have to work on your emotional state of mind. A lot of the vibe anybody gives off regardless of gender, is largely due to bottled emotions that seep out into behavior.

If you feel down on your luck or depressed, it's gonna show. The biggest change is to start thinking about life in a positive optimistic way, wake up every morning and list out 5 things that make you a great person, verbalize them, and start your day.

Shyness is not bad, so don't criticize yourself too much, but since you're 18? I assume you're in college, start joining clubs and try expanding social circles even if you get friendzoned, often times female friends hook up their other male friends to their single girlfriends, and a lot of dating is trial and error.

So your pickiness with women will work against you in some ways, in the general sense because it is stopping you from expanding your social network, which becomes a feedback loop as to why you are little success at all. See the cycle?

[brandon9]

Well take one step at a time. Get out and start developing talents, maybe a party trick or two. Maintain very good hygiene and then you'll have to work on your emotional state of mind. A lot of the vibe anybody gives off regardless of gender, is largely due to bottled emotions that seep out into behavior.

If you feel down on your luck or depressed, it's gonna show. The biggest change is to start thinking about life in a positive optimistic way, wake up every morning and list out 5 things that make you a great person, verbalize them, and start your day.

Shyness is not bad, so don't criticize yourself too much, but since you're 18? I assume you're in college, start joining clubs and try expanding social circles even if you get friendzoned, often times female friends hook up their other male friends to their single girlfriends, and a lot of dating is trial and error.

So your pickiness with women will work against you in some ways, in the general sense because it is stopping you from expanding your social network, which becomes a feedback loop as to why you are little success at all. See the cycle?

I'm a senior in high school technically, but I'm also completing my freshman year of college at the same time via a combination of dual enrollment and online/on campus classes with a local community college. I haven't been part of a club or organization since middle school, as I devoted my time to school and in the last two years, working.

It's funny you mention a cycle though, because it sort of happened again. The one girl I had tried to talk to recently ended up totally ignoring me after a few days of talking. I don't know why - I was nice and polite to her, I didn't bring up any controversial topics in conversation, I didn't push boundaries or push myself at her... I was just me lol. It got me down in that she totally wrote me off so quickly, but I didn't know her that well, so it wasn't as bad... I just wonder why it happened again that I got stonewalled. Especially because she was receptive at first.

It's also weird for me, and even probably my biggest issue, that I still feel strongly for Leah (the girl I seriously love and rejects me as a possible boyfriend that I mentioned before). Its hard because she is really my only actual friend, and I'd usually talk about deep shit like that or even this thread entirely with her, but I'm 1) scared to tell her I tried and failed talking to another girl after her and 2) scared it'll make a sort of awkward conversation with her, so I can't even tell her about that and she's pretty much my only support mechanism. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a bit awkward trying to talk to another girl when what I really want is her... Which is something I have no clue how to stop wanting.

In short, I'm a mental mess lol.

[Uniquemind]

I'm a senior in high school technically, but I'm also completing my freshman year of college at the same time via a combination of dual enrollment and online/on campus classes with a local community college. I haven't been part of a club or organization since middle school, as I devoted my time to school and in the last two years, working.

It's funny you mention a cycle though, because it sort of happened again. The one girl I had tried to talk to recently ended up totally ignoring me after a few days of talking. I don't know why - I was nice and polite to her, I didn't bring up any controversial topics in conversation, I didn't push boundaries or push myself at her... I was just me lol. It got me down in that she totally wrote me off so quickly, but I didn't know her that well, so it wasn't as bad... I just wonder why it happened again that I got stonewalled. Especially because she was receptive at first.

It's also weird for me, and even probably my biggest issue, that I still feel strongly for Leah (the girl I seriously love and rejects me as a possible boyfriend that I mentioned before). Its hard because she is really my only actual friend, and I'd usually talk about deep shit like that or even this thread entirely with her, but I'm 1) scared to tell her I tried and failed talking to another girl after her and 2) scared it'll make a sort of awkward conversation with her, so I can't even tell her about that and she's pretty much my only support mechanism. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a bit awkward trying to talk to another girl when what I really want is her... Which is something I have no clue how to stop wanting.

In short, I'm a mental mess lol.


Ya know it's just awkward when a guy puts you on a pedestal though.

It immediately injects a tone of awkwardness that is sensed.

You need to get yourself together so that way what you're putting out there on the dating scene is seen as valuable and competitive.

Your other current life obligations are choking your social life, and student life does that to many people given that it's isolating to have your nose to the books.

It also doesn't help that community colleges tend to be commuter schools making it hard to develop relationships and bonds.

I would but aside your sadness and woe, and find a good mental center, and work from there.

Also don't guilt yourself from loving Leah, just don't obsess over it.

Obsessing is also a behavior that is seen as a red flag during the early dating stages.

[brandon9]

Ya know it's just awkward when a guy puts you on a pedestal though.

It immediately injects a tone of awkwardness that is sensed.

You need to get yourself together so that way what you're putting out there on the dating scene is seen as valuable and competitive.

Your other current life obligations are choking your social life, and student life does that to many people given that it's isolating to have your nose to the books.

It also doesn't help that community colleges tend to be commuter schools making it hard to develop relationships and bonds.

I would but aside your sadness and woe, and find a good mental center, and work from there.

Also don't guilt yourself from loving Leah, just don't obsess over it.

Obsessing is also a behavior that is seen as a red flag during the early dating stages.


I'm honestly confused, why would it be awkward to have a guy showing that he cares that much? Like I would not say I put Leah on a pedestal, her and I have had many arguments and she is far from perfect, but I feel she's perfect for ME and what I like in a person. I care about her more than anyone else in my life, and she knows that... to me, someone for whom it is very difficult to open up and express myself, showing her that I really do care that much and being 100% honest all the time is me saying "I totally trust you, and I am totally comfortable being myself around you, and you mean a lot to me." Like I've heard people say things similar to that before and it truly makes zero sense to me, how is it awkward for me to simply express my genuine feelings versus the "play mind games for 5 months making everyone feel like shit wondering what each person really feels and wants" shit that everyone seems to favor these days? To me, that's just a cruel mindfuck of an approach to having something with another person... or maybe I'm totally naive and have no clue how this shit works because I've never gotten anywhere with anyone lol.

I can't deny an obsession though, but it's not what I'd call an "obsession"... I just love her, and wish every day things were different, that she'd give me a chance. I'm never happier than when I'm with her, or talking to her, hell even just thinking of her. And despite the fact that she won't date me, every now and then she slips up and shows that she seriously cares too, which combines with everything else to make it damn near impossible to walk away. The only reasons she's ever given for not dating me is "I'm a shitty person to date, nobody likes me as a girlfriend and I'm sparing you that", and "I'm not attracted to you." No matter what I say, those are her only reasons, which makes me feel like she is just very afraid to commit. It kills me.

I realize I dove into the shit, but this is such a huge part of my life, and coincidentally the part I feel I understand the least.

[Uniquemind]

I'm honestly confused, why would it be awkward to have a guy showing that he cares that much? Like I would not say I put Leah on a pedestal, her and I have had many arguments and she is far from perfect, but I feel she's perfect for ME and what I like in a person. I care about her more than anyone else in my life, and she knows that... to me, someone for whom it is very difficult to open up and express myself, showing her that I really do care that much and being 100% honest all the time is me saying "I totally trust you, and I am totally comfortable being myself around you, and you mean a lot to me." Like I've heard people say things similar to that before and it truly makes zero sense to me, how is it awkward for me to simply express my genuine feelings versus the "play mind games for 5 months making everyone feel like shit wondering what each person really feels and wants" shit that everyone seems to favor these days? To me, that's just a cruel mindfuck of an approach to having something with another person... or maybe I'm totally naive and have no clue how this shit works because I've never gotten anywhere with anyone lol.

I can't deny an obsession though, but it's not what I'd call an "obsession"... I just love her, and wish every day things were different, that she'd give me a chance. I'm never happier than when I'm with her, or talking to her, hell even just thinking of her. And despite the fact that she won't date me, every now and then she slips up and shows that she seriously cares too, which combines with everything else to make it damn near impossible to walk away. The only reasons she's ever given for not dating me is "I'm a shitty person to date, nobody likes me as a girlfriend and I'm sparing you that", and "I'm not attracted to you." No matter what I say, those are her only reasons, which makes me feel like she is just very afraid to commit. It kills me.

I realize I dove into the shit, but this is such a huge part of my life, and coincidentally the part I feel I understand the least.

The bigger reason is if a girl is not attracted to you, no amount of "nice" behavior" is gonna convince them otherwise.

The first reason might be fear of losing a friendship, but the second reason is really more of your stonewall.

Also I never said to play games did I? Don't, those that do usually also get stuck in "negative cycles or negative relationships if one starts".

[brandon9]

The bigger reason is if a girl is not attracted to you, no amount of "nice" behavior" is gonna convince them otherwise.

The first reason might be fear of losing a friendship, but the second reason is really more of your stonewall.

Also I never said to play games did I? Don't, those that do usually also get stuck in "negative cycles or negative relationships if one starts".

I don't get why she said that though, because in the past she has admitted several times that she IS attracted to me, and that she doesn't understand why I care so much. She literally said at one point "all I've done is fuck with your head and try to push you away, I don't know why you think I'm such a great person, I think I'm a piece of shit especially to you".... I know her better than anyone else and can read her in every way, except where our tiptoeing around a relationship is concerned. That's the one area I can never tell with her.

The scary thing to me is that I've tried to stop feeling this strongly for her so many times, I've tried to walk away, and so has she, and neither of us can do it. We always end up coming back to each other because neither of us knows how to let the other go, me because I love her, and her I think because she knows I'm the one person who truly won't ever fuck her over...? I'm scared I'm going to be stuck in this endless cycle with her, and I don't want that, but she means the damn world and then some to me and I can't bear the thought of not having her in my life.

I just really don't know what to do.

[Uniquemind]

I don't get why she said that though, because in the past she has admitted several times that she IS attracted to me, and that she doesn't understand why I care so much. She literally said at one point "all I've done is fuck with your head and try to push you away, I don't know why you think I'm such a great person, I think I'm a piece of shit especially to you".... I know her better than anyone else and can read her in every way, except where our tiptoeing around a relationship is concerned. That's the one area I can never tell with her.

The scary thing to me is that I've tried to stop feeling this strongly for her so many times, I've tried to walk away, and so has she, and neither of us can do it. We always end up coming back to each other because neither of us knows how to let the other go, me because I love her, and her I think because she knows I'm the one person who truly won't ever fuck her over...? I'm scared I'm going to be stuck in this endless cycle with her, and I don't want that, but she means the damn world and then some to me and I can't bear the thought of not having her in my life.

I just really don't know what to do.

You mentally and emotionally quarantine the meaning of the relationship and her place in your social circle.

The secret is you don't stop feeling the emotion, you just redirect actions fueled by said emotions.

This is one of those complicated situations where she isn't a whole person either, and so whatever relationship she seems to get into tends to have a toxic vibe to it. She's got to get herself together, understand in her own right what she's gets attracted too, and to see if those qualities keep looping her in bad re traumatizing relationships.

You've got to do the same, but it sounds like she's got problems too.

You have her on a pedestal of social importance to you, that's the pedestal I'm talking about. She's safe where she is.

Questions to ask: what changes meaningfully upon the status of friends to "in a relationship". At a certain point it's just worldly marketing labels. The real meaning of a relationship is the core of it's merit and service to the individuals involved.

[brandon9]

You mentally and emotionally quarantine the meaning of the relationship and her place in your social circle.

The secret is you don't stop feeling the emotion, you just redirect actions fueled by said emotions.

This is one of those complicated situations where she isn't a whole person either, and so whatever relationship she seems to get into tends to have a toxic vibe to it. She's got to get herself together, understand in her own right what she's gets attracted too, and to see if those qualities keep looping her in bad re traumatizing relationships.

You've got to do the same, but it sounds like she's got problems too.

You have her on a pedestal of social importance to you, that's the pedestal I'm talking about. She's safe where she is.

Questions to ask: what changes meaningfully upon the status of friends to "in a relationship". At a certain point it's just worldly marketing labels. The real meaning of a relationship is the core of it's merit and service to the individuals involved.

What are ways I can keep that thought out of my head? Like every time I see her I'm just like "I so want to be with you" and while I try to not express it anymore, its always there... I hate that she feels guilty because of how I feel, like that's not what I ever wanted, but I also can't apologize about how I feel, and I am glad that I feel the way I do. So how do I... redirect?

As far as what the line between friendship and relationship is... To me, a relationship is a higher degree of closeness, a merging of two worlds to create a shared one. Its about supporting each other and knowing you have someone who unconditionally cares for you. Its future-building, its a way to learn about yourself, to develop a connection with someone who you can be 100% true with, and its a source of happiness. Its not all about physicality or other superficial things like that.

Maybe that's a false impression, an impossible ideal, but that's what I see it as. That's what I want with her - no boundaries, no secrets, just openness and closeness and shared experiences.

That sounds super sappy and shit, but its how I see it lol.

[Uniquemind]

What are ways I can keep that thought out of my head? Like every time I see her I'm just like "I so want to be with you" and while I try to not express it anymore, its always there... I hate that she feels guilty because of how I feel, like that's not what I ever wanted, but I also can't apologize about how I feel, and I am glad that I feel the way I do. So how do I... redirect?

As far as what the line between friendship and relationship is... To me, a relationship is a higher degree of closeness, a merging of two worlds to create a shared one. Its about supporting each other and knowing you have someone who unconditionally cares for you. Its future-building, its a way to learn about yourself, to develop a connection with someone who you can be 100% true with, and its a source of happiness. Its not all about physicality or other superficial things like that.

Maybe that's a false impression, an impossible ideal, but that's what I see it as. That's what I want with her - no boundaries, no secrets, just openness and closeness and shared experiences.

That sounds super sappy and shit, but its how I see it lol.

Start limiting your exposure to her, put distance between you too if it keeps retraumatizing your rejection.

I already recommended really keeping yourself busy with academics and other activities. Those feelings aren't going to disappear, but you need to know that they terminate there, there's nothing those feelings will get you to change reality it does not work that way.

Guilt never got anybody attracted to anybody, it's only ever contributed to negative relationships including ruining friendships.

Also the reality is many relationships are never open to begin with from the start. It is unrealistic to expect open and strong transparent connection between partners while both are still wearing the BF GF labels.

[brandon9]

Start limiting your exposure to her, put distance between you too if it keeps retraumatizing your rejection.

I already recommended really keeping yourself busy with academics and other activities. Those feelings aren't going to disappear, but you need to know that they terminate there, there's nothing those feelings will get you to change reality it does not work that way.

Guilt never got anybody attracted to anybody, it's only ever contributed to negative relationships including ruining friendships.

Also the reality is many relationships are never open to begin with from the start. It is unrealistic to expect open and strong transparent connection between partners while both are still wearing the BF GF labels.

I feel like I've got myself into something that can only end with my getting hurt... There is no ending where it all works out.

I also feel like everything I want in terms of being with someone else will never happen, like the expectations I have of a genuine relationship just isn't how this world works now.

Its hard to not get down about it, just in general, but especially with Leah. I guess I go back to feeling like nothing will ever go my way because it never has, you know? I'm pretty messed up in the head by it all, and I've got no source to vent to. Not in person anyway.

[Uniquemind]

I feel like I've got myself into something that can only end with my getting hurt... There is no ending where it all works out.

I also feel like everything I want in terms of being with someone else will never happen, like the expectations I have of a genuine relationship just isn't how this world works now.

Its hard to not get down about it, just in general, but especially with Leah. I guess I go back to feeling like nothing will ever go my way because it never has, you know? I'm pretty messed up in the head by it all, and I've got no source to vent to. Not in person anyway.

Don't over extend into self-wallowing grief, but accept your losses, and begin to move on.

There's a middle step your skipping over which is allowing your cycle to repeat.

You have to be at peace with being single, but open to opportunity, rather than pessimistic about it.

[Ragle]

And I've got a lot of evidence to back that theory up.

Do I need to change something about myself before someone accepts me and gives me a chance? Or do people need to change the way they see and treat me?


just fuck the evidence and don't act too mature. get more chilled instead ... or look out for those who appreciate your individual qualities.

[brandon9]

Don't over extend into self-wallowing grief, but accept your losses, and begin to move on.

There's a middle step your skipping over which is allowing your cycle to repeat.

You have to be at peace with being single, but open to opportunity, rather than pessimistic about it.

Kinda reminds me of something Leah said to me once, a few days before the second time I asked her to date me. She compared relationships to building a house - you pick the design, build the foundation, then move in and start to furnish it and decorate it and in her exact words, "everything slowly starts to become wholesome." Then she had said, "you can't get anywhere if you don't have the right beginning - you have to start with some flings, little things in the moment, and build that foundation up before you try putting the walls up"...I remember the entire conversation her and I had about that word for word, I think about it multiple times a day. You just sounded really similar to her in this instance lol.

Its sad to me that I can remember her words, but I can't act on them.

just fuck the evidence and don't act too mature. get more chilled instead ... or look out for those who appreciate your individual qualities.


I don't like being something I'm not, its just not who I am, I tried playacting once and shit like that is a joke... I just haven't met someone who appreciates the real me, I guess.

Merging double posts - please use the edit button next time. ~Lost Horizon

[Uniquemind]

Kinda reminds me of something Leah said to me once, a few days before the second time I asked her to date me. She compared relationships to building a house - you pick the design, build the foundation, then move in and start to furnish it and decorate it and in her exact words, "everything slowly starts to become wholesome." Then she had said, "you can't get anywhere if you don't have the right beginning - you have to start with some flings, little things in the moment, and build that foundation up before you try putting the walls up"...I remember the entire conversation her and I had about that word for word, I think about it multiple times a day. You just sounded really similar to her in this instance lol.

Its sad to me that I can remember her words, but I can't act on them.

Did you have a counter statement to her analogy? Because I do, but yes her and I agree.

My counter statement would be to look at relationships older than us, who thought in the beginning they had the "right foundation" but in the end crumbled in bitter expensive and emotionally traumatizing or even murderous divorce.

What therefore is the human accuracy of sensing a proper foundation versus simply giving something a go?

I suspect you were stunned silent by her thoughtful analogy.

See wit and thoughtfulness is attractive especially among women, and even if you didn't agree in the end, the fact that you could be on her level with intellectually stimulating conversation is in itself a quality you need with all women.

All good flirts, have the gift of talking smoothly, and knowing when to stay silent strategically and listen to therefore base an action or make a next thoughtful response.

[brandon9]

Did you have a counter statement to her analogy? Because I do, but yes her and I agree.

My counter statement would be to look at relationships older than us, who thought in the beginning they had the "right foundation" but in the end crumbled in bitter expensive and emotionally traumatizing or even murderous divorce.

What therefore is the human accuracy of sensing a proper foundation versus simply giving something a go?

I suspect you were stunned silent by her thoughtful analogy.

See wit and thoughtfulness is attractive especially among women, and even if you didn't agree in the end, the fact that you could be on her level with intellectually stimulating conversation is in itself a quality you need with all women.

All good flirts, have the gift of talking smoothly, and knowing when to stay silent strategically and listen to therefore base an action or make a next thoughtful response.

You're right in thinking I was quiet after she made the analogy. I was really thinking hard about it. And I saw sense in what she said so I wasn't really trying to disprove it, you know? My ultimate reaction was to reach out and hold her hand for a moment, and I said "That's a lot to think on" to which she replied "I've had a long time to" and then we kinda switched topics.

I see the sense of your argument too, though, its 100% accurate.

I feel like I'm decent at flirting and talking to women once I'm comfortable with them, but usually I struggle in the beginning. I'm not sure where I can and can't go with most girls so I worry I'm going to push too far like flirting and such. I know its a problem but few girls stick around to give me chances to "improve" that skill with them.

[Uniquemind]

You're right in thinking I was quiet after she made the analogy. I was really thinking hard about it. And I saw sense in what she said so I wasn't really trying to disprove it, you know? My ultimate reaction was to reach out and hold her hand for a moment, and I said "That's a lot to think on" to which she replied "I've had a long time to" and then we kinda switched topics.

I see the sense of your argument too, though, its 100% accurate.

I feel like I'm decent at flirting and talking to women once I'm comfortable with them, but usually I struggle in the beginning. I'm not sure where I can and can't go with most girls so I worry I'm going to push too far like flirting and such. I know its a problem but few girls stick around to give me chances to "improve" that skill with them.

Don't worry about pushing too far, as long as it's not to the level of sexual assault.

The richer you are too the more you get away with sexual assault, Trump's ascendency to the presidency has proven that a significant portion of females apparently tolerate the concept just fine and see it as just a part of being a women. To a degree there's some truth to that.

If someone wants to make me the subject of their masturbatory fantasies because we passed on the street, I have little recoil but to tolerate it. Catcalls aren't a crime.

That's why we have to keep our guard up and travel in groups and be selective on who we partner with on dates.

[brandon9]

Don't worry about pushing too far, as long as it's not to the level of sexual assault.

The richer you are too the more you get away with sexual assault, Trump's ascendency to the presidency has proven that a significant portion of females apparently tolerate the concept just fine and see it as just a part of being a women. To a degree there's some truth to that.

If someone wants to make me the subject of their masturbatory fantasies because we passed on the street, I have little recoil but to tolerate it. Catcalls aren't a crime.

That's why we have to keep our guard up and travel in groups and be selective on who we partner with on dates.

Oh I would never do anything like that to a woman, I'd beat the shit out of someone who assaulted a girl I know. That just isn't right at all, no excuses there.

When I say push too far, I'm talking just basic breaking of touch barriers and such. Like I'm so afraid to do that. I've had a LOT of girls take offense to me doing something as simple as touching their arm to get their attention - not to say I haven't had SOME success with it but on the whole my experience is "girls love to be touched by every guy but me" lol. Which again baffles me, but hey, that's why I'm looking for answers isn't it?

[Uniquemind]

Oh I would never do anything like that to a woman, I'd beat the shit out of someone who assaulted a girl I know. That just isn't right at all, no excuses there.

When I say push too far, I'm talking just basic breaking of touch barriers and such. Like I'm so afraid to do that. I've had a LOT of girls take offense to me doing something as simple as touching their arm to get their attention - not to say I haven't had SOME success with it but on the whole my experience is "girls love to be touched by every guy but me" lol. Which again baffles me, but hey, that's why I'm looking for answers isn't it?

It depends on the social value of the guy that's doing the advancing.

That's the grey area your missing. There are benefits to being publically well known on campus and playing that social and albiet superficial dance does yield benefits.

If people know OF you positively, many girls will respond to that because "well at least I know OF him rather than > he's a total stranger creep.".


The first step in overcoming shyness, is simply to widen your social circle and overcome that fear of losing something because your trying to socialize.

Don't force it but try to find common skills, talents, and interest to find your group.


If you already have a negative reputation, well this will take longer because you've got to work uphill.

[brandon9]

It depends on the social value of the guy that's doing the advancing.

That's the grey area your missing. There are benefits to being publically well known on campus and playing that social and albiet superficial dance does yield benefits.

If people know OF you positively, many girls will respond to that because "well at least I know OF him rather than > he's a total stranger creep.".


The first step in overcoming shyness, is simply to widen your social circle and overcome that fear of losing something because your trying to socialize.

Don't force it but try to find common skills, talents, and interest to find your group.


If you already have a negative reputation, well this will take longer because you've got to work uphill.

That's what I don't understand about the school I'm at now - a lot of people know who I am, and will talk to me and such while we are at school, but it never goes past that. Its like people think I'm okay to talk to at school but I never get invited to do stuff, if I invite people to hang out I get turned down, nobody really texts or anything unless they're asking for an assignment or something. And then they'll all talk about parties they were at and shit they did while I'm right there and am the only one who didn't go. Or they make plans in front of me and never ask if I want to join in. Its been that way for years. I don't get it.