War on Terror

[Harry Smith]

For the last 13 years the west under the leadership of the US have been engaged in a 'war against terror' in order to root out and destroy the leadership of terrorist networks such as Al-Qaeda.

Do you think that the war has been justified? Should we continue in order to protect ourselves or should we withdraw from the region?

[Stronk Serb]

To be honest, it could've been avoided. But now, more and more people join terrorist organisations because the US, UK and other nations kill their friends and family members. On purpose or not, those people don't care, they want vengeance. So, I kinda think you are too deep in the mud, that you can't pull yourself out. Maybe try to reach an agreement, that if you pull out, they won't bother you, or you pay some sort of reparations, although it is very unlikely.

[Sir Suomi]

Honestly, it has helped to an extent. We did push Al-Qaeda out of power, which opened up opportunities for many of Afghanistan citizens, installed an education system in majority of the country, which gave boys and girls a chance to get their heads out of a religious book and instead into a science book, and we also helped kick start their roads and highways. But honestly, the war ended up becoming another Vietnam. There are a lot of men and women who lost theirs lives due to the very men and women they voted to represent them. However, I still am proud of our veterans and currently deployed personnel, and it does sicken me how people sitting comfortably at home, safe and secure, will stream hate towards our military personnel. Until they physically go out and experience the horrors of war, they have no right to look down upon the men and women who so easily give up their lives for their country. That is all.

[Gamma Male]

You mean the dick measuring contest between the Bush family and the middle east?
No, I don't support it.

[Zenos]

For the last 13 years the west under the leadership of the US have been engaged in a 'war against terror' in order to root out and destroy the leadership of terrorist networks such as Al-Qaeda.

Do you think that the war has been justified? Should we continue in order to protect ourselves or should we withdraw from the region?



Um well lets see on September 11th 2001 Al-Qaeda in a bid to cripple the USA attacked US! So while it is a drag seeing people suffer we are there for a justifiable reason

Honestly, it has helped to an extent. We did push Al-Qaeda out of power, which opened up opportunities for many of Afghanistan citizens, installed an education system in majority of the country, which gave boys and girls a chance to get their heads out of a religious book and instead into a science book, and we also helped kick start their roads and highways. But honestly, the war ended up becoming another Vietnam. There are a lot of men and women who lost theirs lives due to the very men and women they voted to represent them. However, I still am proud of our veterans and currently deployed personnel, and it does sicken me how people sitting comfortably at home, safe and secure, will stream hate towards our military personnel. Until they physically go out and experience the horrors of war, they have no right to look down upon the men and women who so easily give up their lives for their country. That is all.

Um that was the Taliban that was in power in Afghanistan,but you are right it has helped

You mean the dick measuring contest between the Bush family and the middle east?
No, I don't support it.

Are you even old enough to even remember the fact that a terrorist organization attacked us so we had to counter attack?

Merged double post. -Cygnus David

[World Eater]

What was the cradle of civilization, is slowly turning into the grave of civilization. Our government may have killed several leaders, but another one will always rise up. It's a pointless cycle.

[Zenos]

To be honest, it could've been avoided. But now, more and more people join terrorist organisations because the US, UK and other nations kill their friends and family members. On purpose or not, those people don't care, they want vengeance. So, I kinda think you are too deep in the mud, that you can't pull yourself out. Maybe try to reach an agreement, that if you pull out, they won't bother you, or you pay some sort of reparations, although it is very unlikely.

Yeh if we had know back during the first Gulf war that having US troops stationed in Mecca even with our most advanced anti rocket systems to protect the city would have resulted in 911 i'm sure we'd have had arab troops there instead!

"pay some sort of reparations," are you crazy they attacked the US and you want the US to pay some sort of reparations.


"Maybe try to reach an agreement,"

Let me quote the Quran here on this for you:



Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from Good - except in self-defense. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return.

Quran 3:28; "The Imrans
(this basically is saying they are not to turn to us the non muslims unless it is to gain our aid in their defence)


Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors.

Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.

Quran 2:190-2:191, "The Cow,"

(first section of this was seen as justification for their attack on us seeing as we had troops during the first Gulf war stationed in mecca to defend it against Missile attacks among other forms of attack)


Other quotes from the Quran
Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

[Stronk Serb]

Yeh if we had know back during the first Gulf war that having US troops stationed in Mecca even with our most advanced anti rocket systems to protect the city would have resulted in 911 i'm sure we'd have had arab troops there instead!

"pay some sort of reparations," are you crazy they attacked the US and you want the US to pay some sort of reparations.


"Maybe try to reach an agreement,"

Let me quote the Quran here on this for you:



Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from Good - except in self-defense. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return.

Quran 3:28; "The Imrans
(this basically is saying they are not to turn to us the non muslims unless it is to gain our aid in their defence)


Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors.

Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.

Quran 2:190-2:191, "The Cow,"

(first section of this was seen as justification for their attack on us seeing as we had troops during the first Gulf war stationed in mecca to defend it against Missile attacks among other forms of attack)


Other quotes from the Quran
Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

What I proposed was not an alliance or betterment of relations. I proposed a status quo, a white peace. Now, you started ransacking the Middle East long before 9.11. Modern day Iran is your deed. You staged a coup and overthrew a socialist leader and installed the Shah. Iranian radicalism is the result of decades under his boot. Supporting Israeli genocide campaigns... I could go on. Oh and, I could dig up similar stuff out of the Bible, just like you did with the Quran.

[Sir Suomi]

Um that was the Taliban that was in power in Afghanistan,but you are right it has helped


Whoops, my bad :whoops:

[Zenos]

What I proposed was not an alliance or betterment of relations. I proposed a status quo, a white peace. Now, you started ransacking the Middle East long before 9.11. Modern day Iran is your deed. You staged a coup and overthrew a socialist leader and installed the Shah. Iranian radicalism is the result of decades under his boot. Supporting Israeli genocide campaigns... I could go on. Oh and, I could dig up similar stuff out of the Bible, just like you did with the Quran.


Hmm the late warsaw pact was snooping around there to,causing problems so don't lay that one of the USA!

A white peace ?/Lol you do know that the Quarn allows them to make deals and then not uphold there end if they so please.

You bring up Iran lol it wasn't the Iranians that attacked us so that's just useless poop stirring.

I'm sure you could dig up similar stuff out of the Bible,but I cab bet it'll be form the old testament seeing as Christians go by the New testament which leans more toward peace and treating people equally!

[Stronk Serb]

Hmm the late warsaw pact was snooping around there to,causing problems so don't lay that one of the USA!

A white peace ?/Lol you do know that the Quarn allows them to make deals and then not uphold there end if they so please.

You bring up Iran lol it wasn't the Iranians that attacked us so that's just useless poop stirring.

I'm sure you could dig up similar stuff out of the Bible,but I cab bet it'll be form the old testament seeing as Christians go by the New testament which leans more toward peace and treating people equally!

Get your facts right. When Iran elected a Socialist prime minister who wanted to nationalize the oil industry and keep the riches of Iran for Iran itself, the UK and the USA staged a coup and put the tyrant Shah in power. The USA made deals and did not uphold them, just saying...

[RyGar]

Comrade Mike seems to be oversimplifying to get at a more detailed question about international and oil rights in relation to politics and war.

To answer Harry Smiths original questions:
Do you think the war has been justified?
Yes, what many people don realize is that terrorism has been a threat to the modern world since around the 70s and 80s. Specifically coming into play with various fascist/communist/other political radicals trying to reform their views into European society. As well as post bay of pigs involvement of Soviet Union and USA in South America. Since this time frame we as a people have seen a rise in local terrorism through hijackings of planes, organized terror attacks, and organized international terrorism that is globally and not just regionally focused. To wit it should be noted that the USA is a country with a large military governed by specific sets of rules such as the UCMJ and the Geneva convention. Terrorist orginizations are not governed by these rules and as such are inherently more of a threat to the US public than a standing army because ey hav the ability to do things a standing army cannot or will not do. Bearing this in mind I would say the war on terror is worth it.

Should we with draw to protect ourselves?
Bearing the previous in mind I feel it wise to finish what we started however maintaining a conventional presence in an unconventional theatre seems rather silly. I feel we should withdraw our dismounted I.e. infantry conventional forces from the region while maintaining our special forces in the region to complete a mission of theirs called foreign internal defense. FID is essentially training the local forces to a set standard and helping them fight their own war. The SF troops should be allowed to continue their current missions while focusing on FID. this is just my opinion but I feel it would be an effective way to destagnate our presence without destabilizing the region or essentially handing ack control such as what occurred in fallujah.

[tovaris]

Of course its not justified.

You know who else faught a war on teror... Hitler and his pupet Musolini, the faught againce so called terorists-tha partizan movements of europe.

[Harry Smith]

Comrade Mike seems to be oversimplifying to get at a more detailed question about international and oil rights in relation to politics and war.

To answer Harry Smiths original questions:
Do you think the war has been justified?
Yes, what many people don realize is that terrorism has been a threat to the modern world since around the 70s and 80s. Specifically coming into play with various fascist/communist/other political radicals trying to reform their views into European society. As well as post bay of pigs involvement of Soviet Union and USA in South America. Since this time frame we as a people have seen a rise in local terrorism through hijackings of planes, organized terror attacks, and organized international terrorism that is globally and not just regionally focused. To wit it should be noted that the USA is a country with a large military governed by specific sets of rules such as the UCMJ and the Geneva convention. Terrorist orginizations are not governed by these rules and as such are inherently more of a threat to the US public than a standing army because ey hav the ability to do things a standing army cannot or will not do. Bearing this in mind I would say the war on terror is worth it.

Should we with draw to protect ourselves?
Bearing the previous in mind I feel it wise to finish what we started however maintaining a conventional presence in an unconventional theatre seems rather silly. I feel we should withdraw our dismounted I.e. infantry conventional forces from the region while maintaining our special forces in the region to complete a mission of theirs called foreign internal defense. FID is essentially training the local forces to a set standard and helping them fight their own war. The SF troops should be allowed to continue their current missions while focusing on FID. this is just my opinion but I feel it would be an effective way to destagnate our presence without destabilizing the region or essentially handing ack control such as what occurred in fallujah.

In all fairness the US have been making the Geneva convention look like a Joke-they've broken nearly every single law in it. They've used mercenaries in a direct combat role and tortured prisoners of war something made illegal by the Hague and Geneva convention.

The thing I think about the war on Terror was that it was justified back in 2001 because they attacked us- even if they had legitimate reasons (which I would argue they did) we still needed to act.

My criticism though would be the approach that we've taken to it-
1) We haven't done anything about Pakistan- a country that sheltered Bin Laden and where the Taliban have most of their set up.
2) We've let Saudi Arabia off the hook with their human rights abuses-everyone says that Afghanistan is now equal blah blah but look at Saudi Arabia where women can't drive, they still get stoned and have virtually no rights.
3) You can't win in Afganistan-the moment we leave the Taliban will get the country, the current regime is so corrupt and unpopular.

I'm a massive fan of Ron Paul's foreign policy so yeah look at this-
fxyYjNIVsT4

[Miserabilia]

I don't like the general attitude of "war on terror".
I suppose there's something of good intention under there, but the truth is that the real terror is the fact that americans still kill out there to this day

[AlexOnToast]

You mean the dick measuring contest between the Bush family and the middle east?
No, I don't support it.

You sir, just brought tears to my eyes.

[Tarannosaurus]

My opinion is that waging war for peace is ridiculous. Wars are the opposite of peace.

[Gamma Male]

You sir, just brought tears to my eyes.


Why's that?

[RyGar]

In all fairness the US have been making the Geneva convention look like a Joke-they've broken nearly every single law in it. They've used mercenaries in a direct combat role and tortured prisoners of war something made illegal by the Hague and Geneva convention.

The thing I think about the war on Terror was that it was justified back in 2001 because they attacked us- even if they had legitimate reasons (which I would argue they did) we still needed to act.

My criticism though would be the approach that we've taken to it-
1) We haven't done anything about Pakistan- a country that sheltered Bin Laden and where the Taliban have most of their set up.
2) We've let Saudi Arabia off the hook with their human rights abuses-everyone says that Afghanistan is now equal blah blah but look at Saudi Arabia where women can't drive, they still get stoned and have virtually no rights.
3) You can't win in Afganistan-the moment we leave the Taliban will get the country, the current regime is so corrupt and unpopular.

I'm a massive fan of Ron Paul's foreign policy so yeah look at this-
fxyYjNIVsT4

I sort of agree with you, however I still think you might be trying I oversimplify a really complex topic that has already been simplified. In 2001 we were justified, and we still are. Our foreign policy dictates that cutting the pakstanis off at the knees Is worse for us than keeping them close to the vest. If we cut them off, we risk creating on overt terror safe haven, which is what we have spent the last 13plus years trying to destroy. Saudi Arabia is oe of our few regional allies that isn't overtly trying to dismember our country which is part of why we look past their internal differences, and moreover, their laws aren't really our business. We would be pissed if they tried to enforce their views on our country.on Afghanistan your point is correct but moot. All of our key leaders know this which is why there is so much controversy over how many troops will remain in the region.

Unrelated but Personally I think Ron Paul is a deft imbecile and I would not want him in carge of our foreign policy because the man has little tact, which is essential to dealing with other countries and other cultures. He may have some good baseline ideas but I just don't feel he should be in charge of something requiring the ability to adapt your views.Just my views though

[AlexOnToast]

Why's that?

Tears of laughter, Wabbajack, Tears of Laughter...

[Vlerchan]

Saudi Arabia is oe of our few regional allies that isn't overtly trying to dismember our country which is part of why we look past their internal differences, and moreover, their laws aren't really our business.

From Wikipedia:

Saudi Arabia is said to be the world's largest source of funds for Salafi jihadist terrorist militant groups, such as al-Qaeda, the Afghan Taliban, and Lashkar-e-Taiba in South Asia, and donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide, according to Hillary Clinton.[110] According to a secret December 2009 paper signed by the US secretary of state, "Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaida, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups."[111]

[110]: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-saudi-terrorist-funding

[111]:: http://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/220186

[Harry Smith]

I sort of agree with you, however I still think you might be trying I oversimplify a really complex topic that has already been simplified. In 2001 we were justified, and we still are. Our foreign policy dictates that cutting the pakstanis off at the knees Is worse for us than keeping them close to the vest. If we cut them off, we risk creating on overt terror safe haven, which is what we have spent the last 13plus years trying to destroy. Saudi Arabia is oe of our few regional allies that isn't overtly trying to dismember our country which is part of why we look past their internal differences, and moreover, their laws aren't really our business. We would be pissed if they tried to enforce their views on our country.on Afghanistan your point is correct but moot. All of our key leaders know this which is why there is so much controversy over how many troops will remain in the region.

Unrelated but Personally I think Ron Paul is a deft imbecile and I would not want him in carge of our foreign policy because the man has little tact, which is essential to dealing with other countries and other cultures. He may have some good baseline ideas but I just don't feel he should be in charge of something requiring the ability to adapt your views.Just my views though

Did you watch the video? It raises some very good ideas about why the people in Afghanistan are fighting us.

I'd argue that even in 2001 it was still iffy-the Taliban didn't attack you. It was Al-Qaeda who were largely based in Pakistan and any that were in Afghanistan simply crossed the border. It was just a way of Bush appearing strong and having his Pearl Habour moment. It was also used to justify the 2003 Iraq war on the basis Saddam was funding these groups (complete bollocks) Video's really are magic

cpP7b2lUxVE

Afghanistan has so many parallels with South Vietnam
-Trying to change culture
-Installed corrupt,weak leadership
-Poor armed forces with no motivation
-Hostile peasant base
-large amount of firepower for Enemy
-Supply lines from hostile countries (Pakinstan etc)

We all knew what happened in Vietnam when the Yanks left, it didn't take long for the North Vietnamese to overrun the country and it wouldn't surprise me if the Taliban are the same.

moreover, their laws aren't really our business

Then why is everyone wanking over the democratization in Afghanistan? It just seems biased to lecture the Taliban on human rights whilst giving the equally bad Saudi's weapons and funding

[Zenos]

Did you watch the video? It raises some very good ideas about why the people in Afghanistan are fighting us.

I'd argue that even in 2001 it was still iffy-the Taliban didn't attack you. It was Al-Qaeda who were largely based in Pakistan and any that were in Afghanistan simply crossed the border. It was just a way of Bush appearing strong and having his Pearl Habour moment. It was also used to justify the 2003 Iraq war on the basis Saddam was funding these groups (complete bollocks) Video's really are magic

cpP7b2lUxVE

Afghanistan has so many parallels with South Vietnam
-Trying to change culture
-Installed corrupt,weak leadership
-Poor armed forces with no motivation
-Hostile peasant base
-large amount of firepower for Enemy
-Supply lines from hostile countries (Pakinstan etc)

We all knew what happened in Vietnam when the Yanks left, it didn't take long for the North Vietnamese to overrun the country and it wouldn't surprise me if the Taliban are the same.



Then why is everyone wanking over the democratization in Afghanistan? It just seems biased to lecture the Taliban on human rights whilst giving the equally bad Saudi's weapons and funding



I do have to Agree that once everyone else is gone the Taliban will get right back to business of taking Afghanistan back again.

Given a toital pullout of all Coallition forces I give the Current government 1 year tops before it's swept from power.

I just feel for the masses who have gotten used to knowing what freedom to make their own choices are going to go through when the Taliban are back in power.

[Harry Smith]

I do have to Agree that once everyone else is gone the Taliban will get right back to business of taking Afghanistan back again.

Given a toital pullout of all Coallition forces I give the Current government 1 year tops before it's swept from power.

I just feel for the masses who have gotten used to knowing what freedom to make their own choices are going to go through when the Taliban are back in power.

The masses in Afghanistan don't care about freedom-the only names on the ballot papers are western back puppets. The people of Afghanistan care about their family and their land-two things that have both been damaged by NATO forces through a retarded war on drugs and drone strikes.

Democracy isn't going to give them there country back

[Zenos]

The masses in Afghanistan don't care about freedom-the only names on the ballot papers are western back puppets. The people of Afghanistan care about their family and their land-two things that have both been damaged by NATO forces through a retarded war on drugs and drone strikes.

Democracy isn't going to give them there country back


I really don't think Democracy works.

As to Afghanistan if the people want their nation back and don't want the Taliban in power then the people are going to have to get rid of the Taliban themselves.