Syrian asylum seeker blows himself up in Germany

[Exocet]

A failed Syrian asylum seeker has blown himself up and injured 12 other people with a backpack bomb near a festival in the south German town of Ansbach.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36880758

This is the fourth attack in Germany within one week.

An afghan "refugee" stabs people in train leaving many injured.
A "germano"-iranian kills 9 people.
A syrian "refugee" stabs people and kill pregnant woman and injure others.
A syrian asylum seeker blows himself up.

Paraxiom I am waiting for your philosophical explanations.

[Flapjack]

Yayyyy 1 in 1000 commits a terrorist attack, lets go demonize all the refugees!!

[sqishy]

Exocet

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Imagine that each line from the block above represents a person, from the middle east, who presented themselves as a refugee into Europe in 2015. Imagine one thousand of these blocks, and now you making a rough but good estimate of how many there were.

Now let's represent a rough number of terrorists who carried out attacks seen as terrorism in Europe in 2015. From data in Wikipedia [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_European_Union ], I'm seeing 7, but since some are claimed by organisations, let's make an unjustifiably high overestimate of 100:

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||


My reaction to your generalisation, as always, is

What. The. Fuck.



Even if 1% of those flowing into Europe presenting themselves as refugees were actually there for ill-intent, you are mad to frame this with the other 99% of refugees. This is magnified more than 100 times to get to this situation.


I can continue, but I will leave you with more statistics for your reading. I would appreciate the favour of you having a good look at them.

http://economicsandpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Global-Terrorism-Index-2015.pdf

http://www.datagraver.com/case/europol-reports-terrorism-in-the-eu-2006-2015

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/01/08/3609796/islamist-terrorism-europe/


Oh, and I would like to know your definition of 'mental illness', along with 'terrorism'. Let's get some idea of where we are at here.

[german_boy]

Current update: the refugee wanted to take vengenance against Germans.

[Jinglebottom]

Current update: the refugee wanted to take vengenance against Germans.
Why? Would he rather be in Syria?

[mahony0509]

He was denied political asylum.

[Exocet]

Exocet

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Imagine that each line from the block above represents a person, from the middle east, who presented themselves as a refugee into Europe in 2015. Imagine one thousand of these blocks, and now you making a rough but good estimate of how many there were.

Now let's represent a rough number of terrorists who carried out attacks seen as terrorism in Europe in 2015. From data in Wikipedia [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_European_Union ], I'm seeing 7, but since some are claimed by organisations, let's make an unjustifiably high overestimate of 100:

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My reaction to your generalisation, as always, is

What. The. Fuck.



Even if 1% of those flowing into Europe presenting themselves as refugees were actually there for ill-intent, you are mad to frame this with the other 99% of refugees. This is magnified more than 100 times to get to this situation.


I can continue, but I will leave you with more statistics for your reading. I would appreciate the favour of you having a good look at them.

http://economicsandpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Global-Terrorism-Index-2015.pdf

http://www.datagraver.com/case/europol-reports-terrorism-in-the-eu-2006-2015

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/01/08/3609796/islamist-terrorism-europe/


Oh, and I would like to know your definition of 'mental illness', along with 'terrorism'. Let's get some idea of where we are at here.

Maybe you are right,maybe you are wrong. But now try to explain this to the victims or to their families. What if your mother died because a poor and innocent "refugee" blew himself up. Do you think that they'll buy this rhetoric ?

[sqishy]

Maybe you are right,maybe you are wrong. But now try to explain this to the victims or to their families. What if your mother died because a poor and innocent "refugee" blew himself up. Do you think that they'll buy this rhetoric ?

Why would they use rhetoric of him being innocent? I'm not aware of authorities saying this to relatives of the victims. Any authorities doing so are not in the right.

As for him being a refugee, he can still be one and commit crimes. Being a refugee doesn't necessitate deserving help, but it should when the refugee has not intended to harm others over the relevant situations.

Whatever his motivations, even if they are justified in some way, they clearly are not done in any justified way by attempting to kill other innocent people over it.

I am still wondering what your definition on a 'terrorist' is; a relevant ROTW thread is up for discussion on this.

[Flapjack]

Maybe you are right,maybe you are wrong. But now try to explain this to the victims or to their families. What if your mother died because a poor and innocent "refugee" blew himself up. Do you think that they'll buy this rhetoric ?
I'd explain it as an evil crazy man killed them. Because that is what happended. The refugees are fleeing an enemy we created. We must help them.

I am still wondering what your definition on a 'terrorist' is; a relevant ROTW thread is up for discussion on this.
Middle eastern man that speaks scary foreign language perhaps?

Becuase the white people that shoot innocent people are simply crazy silly!

[sqishy]

Middle eastern man that speaks scary foreign language perhaps?

Becuase the white people that shoot innocent people are simply crazy silly!

Preferably not that. I'm using a lot of :/ s recently, but for good reason.

[PlasmaHam]

This is getting pretty ridiculous. How many major European shootings and bombings occur from native Europeans, compared to the refugees?

[german_boy]

A man in Japan killed 15 disabled people today. I'm sure he wasn't a refugee.

Btw: if refugees in Germany want to adapt to the average murder rate in Germany they would have to kill 10 ppl a year. If they didn't, the murder rate amongst refugees is lower than the one amongst Germans.

[Ghaem]

german_boy, Why are all these happening in Germany anyway recently? I feel like the first attack sparked the fire of others.

[german_boy]

Würzburg: IS attack
Munich: Dumb fool who has been planning it for one year
Reutlingen: due to relationship motives
Ansbach: he had recieved his deportation notification shortly before ha has committed the crime

[Jinglebottom]

Sorry, but their (the refugees) culture is completely incompatible with the values you hold in Germany and the Western world in general. I'm not saying deport them all, only those who cause trouble, but it may be best to keep them apart from the general population.. just a thought. In monitored refugee camps, and if one displays extremist tendencies, you know what to do. You're under no obligation to keep troublemakers roaming free in your country. They should be grateful you allowed them to enter your borders in the first place, and that is not how one displays gratitude.

[german_boy]

Sorry, but their (the refugees) culture is completely incompatible with the values you hold in Germany and the Western world in general. I'm not saying deport them all, only those who cause trouble, but it may be best to keep them apart from the general population.. just a thought. In monitored refugee camps, and if one displays extremist tendencies, you know what to do. You're under no obligation to keep troublemakers roaming free in your country. They should be grateful you allowed them to enter your borders in the first place, and that is not how one displays gratitude.


That doesn't work with isolation. I am supporting a score system for immigration. Even for refugees. Unless they don't accept our values, they should not come here.

The big issue here is that our gov failed to control who came into our country. They din't know who and how many came.

[Leprous]

Sorry, but their (the refugees) culture is completely incompatible with the values you hold in Germany and the Western world in general. I'm not saying deport them all, only those who cause trouble, but it may be best to keep them apart from the general population.. just a thought. In monitored refugee camps, and if one displays extremist tendencies, you know what to do. You're under no obligation to keep troublemakers roaming free in your country. They should be grateful you allowed them to enter your borders in the first place, and that is not how one displays gratitude.

If a refugee is not willing to live up to the rules or not willing to adapt to the country they are in, deport them. I agree that they shouldn't be mixed in with the natives of the country too much, not every European likes them and that may not always end well.

Exocet May I ask you if you concider yourself to be a racist?

[german_boy]

If a refugee is not willing to live up to the rules or not willing to adapt to the country they are in, deport them. I agree that they shouldn't be mixed in with the natives of the country too much, not every European likes them and that may not always end well.

Exocet May I ask you if you concider yourself to be a racist?

Mixing them up works better than isolating them. It prevents the parallel societies (as you have them for example in the Banlieus in France) They can get easier into the rules of our country. Here they live decentralized and it works fine. They are friendly and offer help to their neighbours, as well as we offer help to them (with languages, bureaucracy, telling them our values). Actually, sports are a big key for immigration. Here, teenage refugees are part of our soccer teams. They made friendship with other teens their age and those help to integrate quicker.

Of course, this concept doesn't work 100%. As the Special One said, I'd also deport the ones unwillingly to integrate. Compulsory language classes are needed.

[Ghaem]

german_boy, I personally dislike these refugees in general. Since if they were TRUE MUSLIMS, at least their males would stay back and fight back. This type of asylum seeking is not considered legitimate.

[Leprous]

Mixing them up works better than isolating them. It prevents the parallel societies (as you have them for example in the Banlieus in France) They can get easier into the rules of our country. Here they live decentralized and it works fine. They are friendly and offer help to their neighbours, as well as we offer help to them (with languages, bureaucracy, telling them our values). Actually, sports are a big key for immigration. Here, teenage refugees are part of our soccer teams. They made friendship with other teens their age and those help to integrate quicker.

Of course, this concept doesn't work 100%. As the Special One said, I'd also deport the ones unwillingly to integrate. Compulsory language classes are needed.

I know, we here also have one of those soceities next to our capital city, but. But. Know that Belgium's extreme right party is growing with the ongoing refugee crisis and from what I can see (for example comments on Belgian newspaper articles ln facebook) the hatred towards them is growing and growing. I don't mean to keep them away because they're refugees, but to protect them from the racist idiots in this country.

[Dalcourt]

german_boy, I personally dislike these refugees in general. Since if they were TRUE MUSLIMS, at least their males would stay back and fight back. This type of asylum seeking is not considered legitimate.

That's what I often wondered if you saw this flood of refugees on the new last summer there's been mainly young males and hardly any females with kids or older people who I feel should leave the site of war. The males that were feeling looked like those I felt should stay back and fight for their country...but it looked like they just left their parents, sisters, wifes and kids and run.

[Ghaem]

That's what I often wondered if you saw this flood of refugees on the new last summer there's been mainly young males and hardly any females with kids or older people who I feel should leave the site of war. The males that were feeling looked like those I felt should stay back and fight for their country...but it looked like they just left their parents, sisters, wifes and kids and run.

That is a shame. Adult and capable male Muslims are obligated to defend their homelands when attacked or any armed conflict is happening. These so called refugees are a disgrace for Muslims. They also seem to be extraordinary irreligious.

[DriveAlive]

That's what I often wondered if you saw this flood of refugees on the new last summer there's been mainly young males and hardly any females with kids or older people who I feel should leave the site of war. The males that were feeling looked like those I felt should stay back and fight for their country...but it looked like they just left their parents, sisters, wifes and kids and run.

Exactly. They seem to be economic migrants, not refugees.

[Exocet]

If a refugee is not willing to live up to the rules or not willing to adapt to the country they are in, deport them. I agree that they shouldn't be mixed in with the natives of the country too much, not every European likes them and that may not always end well.

Exocet May I ask you if you concider yourself to be a racist?

Here again the racism rhetoric. I am realistic. Those people are not compatible with our way of live,our values. We are welcoming people with medieval mindsets,and should I shut up ?
When will you realize they do not have their place in Europe ? After the 120th terror attack ? Why do not they go to muslim countries where they will feel like at home ? Why is it always Europe that is receiving people that saw their lifes destroyed by USs expeditions and meddling in their region ? Why do not SA and other gulf countries welcome them ?
Will not even talk about those opportunists posing as so called «refugees».
Who are those hypocrites who say welcome refugees but do not welcome any in their houses ?

[sqishy]

Mixing them up works better than isolating them. It prevents the parallel societies (as you have them for example in the Banlieus in France) They can get easier into the rules of our country. Here they live decentralized and it works fine. They are friendly and offer help to their neighbours, as well as we offer help to them (with languages, bureaucracy, telling them our values). Actually, sports are a big key for immigration. Here, teenage refugees are part of our soccer teams. They made friendship with other teens their age and those help to integrate quicker.

Of course, this concept doesn't work 100%. As the Special One said, I'd also deport the ones unwillingly to integrate. Compulsory language classes are needed.

Integration is key, yes.


german_boy, I personally dislike these refugees in general. Since if they were TRUE MUSLIMS, at least their males would stay back and fight back. This type of asylum seeking is not considered legitimate.

That is a shame. Adult and capable male Muslims are obligated to defend their homelands when attacked or any armed conflict is happening. These so called refugees are a disgrace for Muslims. They also seem to be extraordinary irreligious.

If these people held to some arguments that being a 'True Muslim' is fighting for your country even if your home and/or means of work is destroyed, basic clean resources are endangered or also destroyed, and you are threatened with or attacked with bombs, bullets, rape and other assaults, then I would applaud (but not with expectation!) these people for their irrational but extremely resistant belief system in enduring great potential/actual physiological and psychological harm for the greater good of their faith.

If these people could not hold that standard, then I would by all means be fine with granting them refugee status. I don't expect their faith to be stubborn to the level of refusing the possibility to go to a much safer physiological and psychological environment. The faith cannot hold strong in the physical realm your country is set in, when your physical and/or mental existence is threatened in the same physical realm.


That's what I often wondered if you saw this flood of refugees on the new last summer there's been mainly young males and hardly any females with kids or older people who I feel should leave the site of war. The males that were feeling looked like those I felt should stay back and fight for their country...but it looked like they just left their parents, sisters, wifes and kids and run.

The majority of the males are single.

http://savethewest.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Gender-breakdown1.jpg

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php (this one was laggy for me at first but is it worth visiting.)


Here again the racism rhetoric. I am realistic. Those people are not compatible with our way of live,our values. We are welcoming people with medieval mindsets,and should I shut up ?

If you're not explaining with clearer reasoning what makes their mindsets 'medieval', then it is a form of rhetoric.

I am still wondering what makes someone a terrorist for you (and what is mental illness), but now along with what our values are, that theirs are not.



Why is it always Europe that is receiving people that saw their lifes destroyed by USs expeditions and meddling in their region ?

Europe is not free from blame if you are talking about war being conducted in some form on the middle east. The UK, along with France, have sent troops and drones, though yes the US is (as usual) taking the lead.



Why do not SA and other gulf countries welcome them ?

Very good question, no sarcasm intended. At least some European states demand explanations from the gulf states for this.

That said, it is unjustified to not help this population influx, just because someone else should and therefore it is out of our responsibility/'duty'/etc.



Will not even talk about those opportunists posing as so called «refugees».

Who are you referring to here? If you mean those with ill-intent, then we should be talking about them, yes.



Who are those hypocrites who say welcome refugees but do not welcome any in their houses ?

Yes, who are they? I don't see any.

[Stronk Serb]

That is a shame. Adult and capable male Muslims are obligated to defend their homelands when attacked or any armed conflict is happening. These so called refugees are a disgrace for Muslims. They also seem to be extraordinary irreligious.

My friend from Germany says they patrol the streets in mobs of dozen or more and confiscate alcohol saying it is hram, but you can always see them in the countryside getting wasted on quite possibly alcohol they confiscated. She also got sexually harassed and almost raped by these migrants. Fortunately there are always a few German adults nearby to stop it from happening.

[Ghaem]

If these people held to some arguments that being a 'True Muslim' is fighting for your country even if your home and/or means of work is destroyed, basic clean resources are endangered or also destroyed, and you are threatened with or attacked with bombs, bullets, rape and other assaults, then I would applaud (but not with expectation!) these people for their irrational but extremely resistant belief system in enduring great potential/actual physiological and psychological harm for the greater good of their faith.

If these people could not hold that standard, then I would by all means be fine with granting them refugee status. I don't expect their faith to be stubborn to the level of refusing the possibility to go to a much safer physiological and psychological environment. The faith cannot hold strong in the physical realm your country is set in, when your physical and/or mental existence is threatened in the same physical realm.




Well then you have no understanding of being a Muslim. Being a Muslim means feeling responsible for where you live, your neighbors, people, the very soil that has safeguarded you till you grow up. If at the first spark of difficulty, you being such coward to leave it for a non-Muslim land, you are not a Muslim anymore. Call yourself anything you like, you are out of Islam and you are a shame for your Muslim brothers and sisters who are resisting until the threat is destroyed and their country is built again.

Of course idiot Gulf States, specially Kingdom of Bloody House of Saud, who are most responsible for this mess after foreign intervention had to accept women, children and old males who were not capable of fighting too, but I cannot tolerate capable males who just seek easiness that they do not earn.





My friend from Germany says they patrol the streets in mobs of dozen or more and confiscate alcohol saying it is hram, but you can always see them in the countryside getting wasted on quite possibly alcohol they confiscated. She also got sexually harassed and almost raped by these migrants. Fortunately there are always a few German adults nearby to stop it from happening.

There. I said it. Seems like true Muslims of Europe need to make up groups to stop this hypocrites from going on with their abusing name of Muslims. Were they here, they would dealt with pretty much more like what they really deserve.

[sqishy]

Well then you have no understanding of being a Muslim. Being a Muslim means feeling responsible for where you live, your neighbors, people, the very soil that has safeguarded you till you grow up. If at the first spark of difficulty, you being such coward to leave it for a non-Muslim land, you are not a Muslim anymore. Call yourself anything you like, you are out of Islam and you are a shame for your Muslim brothers and sisters who are resisting until the threat is destroyed and their country is built again.

What does it mean to be responsible for your home / fellow humans, if what you necessarily need to survive and live properly is greatly threatened? It does not make sense, if your view of 'upholding your standards' still holds when you literally cannot live properly. It's plainly unrealistic and unstable.

I can draw (a lesser) analogy with it being unrealistic and unstable to expect someone with depression to uphold their work and social standards as any human should be able to do, without help.

The refugees can be sent back after they get the help they need, which should include the helpers either (even if just helping with) rebuilding some / all of the place the refugees fled in the first place, or them doing so along with the then-refugess returning to their homeland.



Of course idiot Gulf States, specially Kingdom of Bloody House of Saud, who are most responsible for this mess after foreign intervention had to accept women, children and old males who were not capable of fighting too, but I cannot tolerate capable males who just seek easiness that they do not earn.


So escaping this is the same as seeking 'unearned easiness':

https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2015/02/11/syria-damage/182fd1c2db4749fa254683d8f5910651cca25d84/images/lead-photo-1050.jpg

(the IMG function is not working for me)

[Ghaem]

What does it mean to be responsible for your home / fellow humans, if what you necessarily need to survive and live properly is greatly threatened? It does not make sense, if your view of 'upholding your standards' still holds when you literally cannot live properly. It's plainly unrealistic and unstable.



So what are you for? Just for enjoying the prosperities and joys of times of peace? You should defend the standards that you want and seek. Otherwise you are hypocrite and not a proper human being.

In times of war and conflict, women and children and incapable males are not supposed to stand and fight; they can stay back or get somewhere safer until things are done. But capable males? Nothing is acceptable about fleeing from a fight that has been imposed on them. They must stay, defend and fight till either the conflict is over and the enemy is driven back or eliminated. If they don't, nothing is wrong about it, but the hell they do not have any right to call themselves Muslims anymore, since the very religion they claim they are following its principles obligates them to DEFEND AND RESIST TILL THE LAST DROP OF BLOOD. Otherwise, they are not considered Muslim Brothers by those who are upholding these principles. Accept them as refugees, but be sure that they have no way to return to the very land they abandoned. Not at least as equal nationals of that country. Capable males MUST stay and defend.



I can draw (a lesser) analogy with it being unrealistic and unstable to expect someone with depression to uphold their work and social standards as any human should be able to do, without help.

The refugees can be sent back after they get the help they need, which should include the helpers either (helping to )rebuilding some / all of the place the refugees fled in the first place, or them doing so along with the then-refugess returning to their homeland.




So escaping this is the same as seeking 'unearned easiness':

http://https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2015/02/11/syria-damage/182fd1c2db4749fa254683d8f5910651cca25d84/images/lead-photo-1050.jpg

(the IMG function is not working for me)[/

It is. My country suffered the same but people of the areas affected never left their country for another. They stayed, they defended, they got poisoned by chemical gases of Saddam, got killed by his French, Soviet, US and UK made war machines and equipments, drove Baathists out and suffered post war difficulties and began rebuilding their country under most painful pressures from foreign powers.

If the same happens I will do the same. I must. There is no humanity in leaving my homeland when it is in need when I am capable of at least pick up a shovel and work for it.

[sqishy]

So what are you for? Just for enjoying the prosperities and joys of times of peace? You should defend the standards that you want and seek. Otherwise you are hypocrite and not a proper human being.

Life is not just about enjoying pleasures, for sure, that is one extreme. However, the other extreme is greatly endangering your life, and risking great physiological and/or psychological harm (some permanent) for the sake of holding to some tenets.



In times of war and conflict, women and children and incapable males are not supposed to stand and fight; they can stay back or get somewhere safer until things are done.

I won't get into the topic on women, but I want to know what defines a capable male in your view.



But capable males? Nothing is acceptable about fleeing from a fight that has been imposed on them. They must stay, defend and fight till either the conflict is over and the enemy is driven back or eliminated. If they don't, nothing is wrong about it, but the hell they do not have any right to call themselves Muslims anymore, since the very religion they claim they are following its principles obligates them to DEFEND AND RESIST TILL THE LAST DROP OF BLOOD.

This is reckless and suicidal in my mind. In the world setting we are in, it has no guarantee to work as holding the country through determined survival.

Is it honourable? Perhaps. Stubborn? That also. I won't delve further, as I do not intend to offend any more. It is irrational and unrealistic to expect this, for me.



Otherwise, they are not considered Muslim Brothers by those who are upholding these principles. Accept them as refugees, but be sure that they have no way to return to the very land they abandoned. Not at least as equal nationals of that country. Capable males MUST stay and defend.

My country suffered the same but people of the areas affected never left their country for another. They stayed, they defended, they got poisoned by chemical gases of Saddam, got killed by his French, Soviet, US and UK made war machines and equipments, drove Baathists out and suffered post war difficulties and began rebuilding their country under most painful pressures from foreign powers.

I do wonder what the levels of PTSD are in your country (Iran?), as something is giving way here. Survival does not need to be done in a way that refuses any help, for the sake of appearing resistant and self-sufficient.

I am not saying that survival your way will never work and will always lead to death, but I am saying that there is a much greater risk of that, and a probable risk of unnecessary harm, if you take this route. I don't get it, and I don't get shaming those who don't get it either.

I'd gladly renounce my public status as a Muslim (if I was one of course), if it meant having a better chance of living, and a better chance against not being harmed so much. I'm not going to hurt myself so much over the faith, and I am not going to be a member of that faith, if it demands that of me.

I also am confidently presuming that Iran has not been under as much destruction as Syria has been, though I am in no way making your hardships sound as not important at all.



If the same happens I will do the same. I must. There is no humanity in leaving my homeland when it is in need when I am capable of at least pick up a shovel and work for it.

There is no humanity in risking death of humanity of your homeland, and shaming fellow humans who disagree with doing so.

[Jinglebottom]

I love how the richer states like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait and UAE took in zero refugees meanwhile Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan together have a few million on their soil. Arab unity right there folks, can you see it? :yes:

[Ghaem]

Life is not just about enjoying pleasures, for sure, that is one extreme. However, the other extreme is greatly endangering your life, and risking great physiological and/or psychological harm (some permanent) for the sake of holding to some tenets.

It is not just holding to some tenets. It is one of main beliefs of Muslims. Defensive Struggle or Jehad. The same one which its name is being abused by such groups like ISIS and others. True Muslims do not fight, only if there is an attack on their lands and where they live or their fellow Muslims' lands are under attack.


I won't get into the topic on women, but I want to know what defines a capable male in your view.

Capable Males are those who are not suffering from any difficulties which will prevent them from fighting, like physical disorders or mental disorders. Fear of Death and Difficulties is not considered a legitimate excuse.

This is reckless and suicidal in my mind. In the world setting we are in, it has no guarantee to work as holding the country through determined survival.

Is it honourable? Perhaps. Stubborn? That also. I won't delve further, as I do not intend to offend any more. It is irrational and unrealistic to expect this, for me.


You should do what you should do, no matter the consequences. If you die, your death is not considered something to be regretted by yourself at least. You did your duty, nothing more matters. If you don't die and win the battle, you have a land to rebuild. Your joy will come from seeing it rising from ruins to once again another prospering country.

It is the meaning of Love my friend. The only thing which is worth living and dying for.


I do wonder what the levels of PTSD are in your country (Iran?), as something is giving way here. Survival does not need to be done in a way that refuses any help, for the sake of appearing resistant and self-sufficient.

Getting help is so different from Begging for help.


I am not saying that survival your way will never work and will always lead to death, but I am saying that there is a much greater risk of that, and a probable risk of unnecessary harm, if you take this route. I don't get it, and I don't get shaming those who don't get it either.

I'd gladly renounce my public status as a Muslim (if I was one of course), if it meant having a better chance of living, and a better chance against not being harmed so much. I'm not going to hurt myself so much over the faith, and I am not going to be a member of that faith, if it demands that of me.

My problem is not those who denounce. My problem are those who don't. My problem are those who leave their in need homelands to live in another country, yet call themselves Muslims, destroy the face and reputation of Islam with their acts, threaten innocent lives with excuse of their twisted beliefs, and yet claiming they are Muslims. I'll make sure they get their share of my anger as an expecting Muslim if anytime I encounter them.


I also am confidently presuming that Iran has not been under as much destruction as Syria has been, though I am in no way making your hardships sound as not important at all.

Please, seriously? Eight years being hammered by all types of explosives and weapons can bring the same level of destruction to a country. But let us be honest then Iran was still safer than today's Syria, but you must not forget that the war began only two years after a revolution which changed safety circumstances of Iran.

[sqishy]

It is not just holding to some tenets. It is one of main beliefs of Muslims. Defensive Struggle or Jehad. The same one which its name is being abused by such groups like ISIS and others. True Muslims do not fight, only if there is an attack on their lands and where they live or their fellow Muslims' lands are under attack.

The main beliefs are, by definition, tenets.

I think that 'Jihad' is being abused by the media by using it the same way as ISIL, too.

The fighting part I am alright with, when under realistic circumstances.



Capable Males are those who are not suffering from any difficulties which will prevent them from fighting, like physical disorders or mental disorders. Fear of Death and Difficulties is not considered a legitimate excuse.

Fear of death is rational within circumstances of a war-torn country, expecting others to fight against that, with them against that fear is comparatively irrational.



You should do what you should do, no matter the consequences. If you die, your death is not considered something to be regretted by yourself at least. You did your duty, nothing more matters. If you don't die and win the battle, you have a land to rebuild. Your joy will come from seeing it rising from ruins to once again another prospering country.

I am ultimately okay with those who proceed into battle of some form against an enemy, motivated by their free desire and tenets. But, I am not okay with those people demanding the same of other people, and expecting them to do so regardless of them having any different views/desires on it.

It is honourable to fight yourself, it is not though to force others to do so. I would hope that the courtesy of allowing freedom of choice, is practiced there. By all means advise or warn those who wish to not fight, of the consequences of them taking that responsibility with whatever arguments you have, but forcing them is not right.



It is the meaning of Love my friend. The only thing which is worth living and dying for.

Love has no necessity to not be directed upon yourself, just like it is for others. I love my body to the level that I would not hurt it unnecessarily.



Getting help is so different from Begging for help.

When you have to beg, there is no difference. It's a serious problem that people have to beg for help in the first place.



My problem is not those who denounce. My problem are those who don't. My problem are those who leave their in need homelands to live in another country, yet call themselves Muslims, destroy the face and reputation of Islam with their acts, threaten innocent lives with excuse of their twisted beliefs, and yet claiming they are Muslims. I'll make sure they get their share of my anger as an expecting Muslim if anytime I encounter them.

What do you mean by those who threaten innocent lives?



Please, seriously? Eight years being hammered by all types of explosives and weapons can bring the same level of destruction to a country. But let us be honest then Iran was still safer than today's Syria, but you must not forget that the war began only two years after a revolution which changed safety circumstances of Iran.

Yes, seriously and literally. Me stating that I see Syria's situation to be literally worse than that of Iran, means only that. I am not saying by implication that Iran is less important, at all. I am saying that both Syria and Iran need help, and that, literally, Syria needs more in proportion to the greater damage it has got.

I can only imagine how bad it is in Iran.

[Ghaem]

The main beliefs are, by definition, tenets.

I think that 'Jihad' is being abused by the media by using it the same way as ISIL, too.


Yes, a pity. This is one of most important weapons of such groups however. Calling them Islamic will fuel them, no matter if that is wrong or right.

Fear of death is rational within circumstances of a war-torn country, expecting others to fight against that, with them against that fear is comparatively irrational.


No one expects anyone to do anything. We just do not expect people to be hypocrites. If you are not a true Muslim, do not call yourself Muslim. That is all. Muslims have obligations that they need to uphold. Others do not have such obligations in an Islamic land.



It is honourable to fight yourself, it is not though to force others to do so. I would hope that the courtesy of allowing freedom of choice, is practiced there. By all means advise or warn those who wish to not fight, of the consequences of them taking that responsibility with whatever arguments you have, but forcing them is not right.

That is what I am saying too. But the fact is those who flee actually never admits that they have withdrawn from their responsibilities as Muslims. They still claim we are Muslims! This is not right! Not fair for real Muslims! Not logic! This is hypocrisy!

When you have to beg, there is no difference. It's a serious problem that people have to beg for help in the first place.

Let's just say you would never be a good Muslim.


What do you mean by those who threaten innocent lives?

Harassment of hosts, exploding yourself only because you are denied asylum. This sort of things.


Yes, seriously and literally. Me stating that I see Syria's situation to be literally worse than that of Iran, means only that. I am not saying by implication that Iran is less important, at all. I am saying that both Syria and Iran need help, and that, literally, Syria needs more in proportion to the greater damage it has got.

More than twenty years have past from end of Iran-Iraq war my friend. Iran is not in need of help. I was just saying the same tragedy happened for Iran too when Iraq attacked. Had its population abandoned Iran such Syrians do, it would never survive.


I can only imagine how bad it is in Iran.

Well, as I said twenty years have past since the end of the war. I think being safer than many European countries today and one of the safest places in whole region of Middle East and being economically better than current situation of many countries in Europe such as Greece, Iran is doing pretty well. Sanctions had their effects, and still has since they are not lifted as they were supposed to, but Iran is Okay. Come and see for yourself if you like.

[Stronk Serb]

Well then you have no understanding of being a Muslim. Being a Muslim means feeling responsible for where you live, your neighbors, people, the very soil that has safeguarded you till you grow up. If at the first spark of difficulty, you being such coward to leave it for a non-Muslim land, you are not a Muslim anymore. Call yourself anything you like, you are out of Islam and you are a shame for your Muslim brothers and sisters who are resisting until the threat is destroyed and their country is built again.

Of course idiot Gulf States, specially Kingdom of Bloody House of Saud, who are most responsible for this mess after foreign intervention had to accept women, children and old males who were not capable of fighting too, but I cannot tolerate capable males who just seek easiness that they do not earn.







There. I said it. Seems like true Muslims of Europe need to make up groups to stop this hypocrites from going on with their abusing name of Muslims. Were they here, they would dealt with pretty much more like what they really deserve.

There are a few Muslims I know who might not be as dedicated as dictated by the Qu'ran, but they are decent, as in abiding the laws of the land. Not forcing their ideas on us and they are treated fairly. In solving this crisis, put pressure on the Gulf States in form of not buying oil from them (buy it from Iran for example, it's sanctions are lifted) if they don't help with accomodating these migrants. Also do background checks in migrants whi have their passports/IDs which are valid and if they are OK, put them on monitoring. If there is no documents, we cannot check on them so they should be returned.

[Ghaem]

There are a few Muslims I know who might not be as dedicated as dictated by the Qu'ran, but they are decent, as in abiding the laws of the land. Not forcing their ideas on us and they are treated fairly. In solving this crisis, put pressure on the Gulf States in form of not buying oil from them (buy it from Iran for example, it's sanctions are lifted) if they don't help with accomodating these migrants. Also do background checks in migrants whi have their passports/IDs which are valid and if they are OK, put them on monitoring. If there is no documents, we cannot check on them so they should be returned.

I don't mind. Just make sure before they enter your countries, they denounce their Muslim-hood. Since they have betrayed Islam by abandoning their Islamic homeland. And I am surely talking about Muslim capable adult males.

[sqishy]

Yes, a pity. This is one of most important weapons of such groups however. Calling them Islamic will fuel them, no matter if that is wrong or right.

Indeed.



No one expects anyone to do anything. We just do not expect people to be hypocrites. If you are not a true Muslim, do not call yourself Muslim. That is all. Muslims have obligations that they need to uphold. Others do not have such obligations in an Islamic land.


That is what I am saying too. But the fact is those who flee actually never admits that they have withdrawn from their responsibilities as Muslims. They still claim we are Muslims! This is not right! Not fair for real Muslims! Not logic! This is hypocrisy!


Let's just say you would never be a good Muslim.


Harassment of hosts, exploding yourself only because you are denied asylum. This sort of things.

I won't delve into the qualification to be a Muslim itself, so I'll say alright and leave it at that.



More than twenty years have past from end of Iran-Iraq war my friend. Iran is not in need of help. I was just saying the same tragedy happened for Iran too when Iraq attacked. Had its population abandoned Iran such Syrians do, it would never survive.

Were the circumstances and the severity of the war the same? As before, I highly suspect some severe PTSD statistics for your country. There are some refugees for almost every war, not every Iranian citizen stayed to fight with vigour.

Why do you think a large proportion of Syria has escaped the country?



Well, as I said twenty years have past since the end of the war. I think being safer than many European countries today and one of the safest places in whole region of Middle East and being economically better than current situation of many countries in Europe such as Greece, Iran is doing pretty well. Sanctions had their effects, and still has since they are not lifted as they were supposed to, but Iran is Okay. Come and see for yourself if you like.

I'm personally not interested in visiting the middle east. My relative ignorance made me think that those 8 years you were talking about, were recent if not ongoing - I was wrong on that.

Everything else still holds though.

[Vlerchan]

That's what I often wondered if you saw this flood of refugees on the new last summer there's been mainly young males and hardly any females with kids or older people who I feel should leave the site of war. The males that were feeling looked like those I felt should stay back and fight for their country...but it looked like they just left their parents, sisters, wifes and kids and run.
I had a longer post discussing this before, but it's in large down to selection bias.

Men tend to hold a greater independence from their family and have independent sources of revenue to fund a trip across the Mediterranean.

Young men tend to have the least amount of attachments which allows them to make the trip. Young men are also at the least risk of death - and, perhaps more importantly, the self-percepted least risk of death.

[Judean Zealot]

I agree with Ghaem. One has duties to one's country, community, and family, and cannot shirk them for selfish purposes. I hope that if, God forbid, something of this sort happens in my country I will send my family to safety and stay back to fight and die with honour, having fulfilled my duty. A person owes everything he has, everything he knows, to his family, community, and country, and should the need arise anyone who presumes to call himself a citizen should pay his dues, whatever the personal cost.

Although there's no reason European countries should take an interest in the refugees Muslim identity. That's purely an internal Islamic affair.

[sqishy]

Although there's no reason European countries should take an interest in the refugees Muslim identity. That's purely an internal Islamic affair.

Perhaps the mention of most/all of them being Muslims by these countries, is such as to act as a counterbalance to show that the countries do not fall for the view that Islam is a religion of terrorist and 'barbaric'/etc values in trend of necessity.

I agree with you in that there is no reason for this, through how that's not a proper way at all to 'neutralise' any worry of appearing hostile, or whatever.

The religion can be mentioned, but I see it as irrelevant, so the reasoning of whatever stance taken should not be influenced by it.

[Porpoise101]

I love how the richer states like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait and UAE took in zero refugees meanwhile Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan together have a few million on their soil. Arab unity right there folks, can you see it? :yes:
The Gulf States got out of this crisis by not signing the UN Refugee Convention decades ago. If they had signed it like most of the world, the situation would be different. I wish the US pressured them into ratifying that treaty though...

[Ghaem]

The Gulf States got out of this crisis by not signing the UN Refugee Convention decades ago. If they had signed it like most of the world, the situation would be different. I wish the US pressured them into ratifying that treaty though...

US? Pressuring Gulf States? I don't think so.

[lliam]

Why? Would he rather be in Syria?

How would you react if you get rejected, running out of options, unable to see absolutely no hope in your life anymore?

He was just a loser and reacted like a typical loser. - End of episode.

But that story continues with similar protagonists in aeternum, I guess.



btw: If I were a politician, the word terrorism wouldn't be part of my vocabulary.

According to this I even wouldn't speculate on the motives of terrorists.

In public I would compare'em with killers of their own mothers or child molesters. And my objective term for'em would be just: losers.

[Porpoise101]

US? Pressuring Gulf States? I don't think so.
Well they do need someone to sell to.. Of course, the US would never dare criticize or touch them, even though they are polar opposites to American values.

[Ghaem]

Well they do need someone to sell to.. Of course, the US would never dare criticize or touch them, even though they are polar opposites to American values.

Let us just say all American values are after Money value.

[Stronk Serb]

Honestly, deport the unemployed men who don't know the language of the country they are in, leave women and children. Most of the migrants are young men fit for military duty, they should be fighting ISIS, or at least rebuild Syria after the war.

[Jinglebottom]

Honestly, deport the unemployed men who don't know the language of the country they are in, leave women and children. Most of the migrants are young men fit for military duty, they should be fighting ISIS, or at least rebuild Syria after the war.
I feel like a good portion of the men are ISIS sympathizers, or even militants in disguise.

[Leprous]

Honestly, deport the unemployed men who don't know the language of the country they are in, leave women and children. Most of the migrants are young men fit for military duty, they should be fighting ISIS, or at least rebuild Syria after the war.

Women and children can also have extreme ideas. I agree that the ones who don't adapt and learn the language should go. Definitly. The problem is most of these attacks have been caused by men known to the police. They should also get kicked le fuck out.

[Stronk Serb]

Women and children can also have extreme ideas. I agree that the ones who don't adapt and learn the language should go. Definitly. The problem is most of these attacks have been caused by men known to the police. They should also get kicked le fuck out.

Yes, but most attacks if not all attacks caused by security breaches because of the migrant crisis have been done by men. Also in my opinion, women and children can more easily be "redeemed", as in shown the folly of extremism.

[Leprous]

Yes, but most attacks if not all attacks caused by security breaches because of the migrant crisis have been done by men. Also in my opinion, women and children can more easily be "redeemed", as in shown the folly of extremism.

True true. It think the security issue needs to be taken care of first though. Intel isn't available to enough people and they are way too soft on the criminals.

[Stronk Serb]

True true. It think the security issue needs to be taken care of first though. Intel isn't available to enough people and they are way too soft on the criminals.

You can start by rejecting ones without any documents. Passports and IDs should suffice. If they have them, open dialogue with the Syrians/wherever they came from to see if it's a security risk. Also give them like three months to learn the language via courses. If they fail in any cathegory, back to Syria.

[Leprous]

You can start by rejecting ones without any documents. Passports and IDs should suffice. If they have them, open dialogue with the Syrians/wherever they came from to see if it's a security risk. Also give them like three months to learn the language via courses. If they fail in any cathegory, back to Syria.

Exactly ^^

[Vlerchan]

If they fail in any cathegory, back to Syria.
In violation of International Law, and European Human Rights, law, which we have all signed up to.

Being a slow learner, doesn't make you less of a refugee.

[Flapjack]

You can start by rejecting ones without any documents. Passports and IDs should suffice. If they have them, open dialogue with the Syrians/wherever they came from to see if it's a security risk. Also give them like three months to learn the language via courses. If they fail in any cathegory, back to Syria.
Believe it or not, when fleeing a warzone, not everyone remembers to bring their papers! If ISIS did want to send a member in disguised as a refugee they would ensure he has his papers sooo what's the point? You'd be turning away so many innocent people in desperate need of aid.

[Stronk Serb]

In violation of International Law, and European Human Rights, law, which we have all signed up to.

Being a slow learner, doesn't make you less of a refugee.

As I have heard, they have the right to request asylum, but it's totally up to the government to decide if they stay. I was a slow learner of Latin which barely has any similarities with Serbian and I learned the basics for three months. Extend the period to six months or a year for all I care.

Believe it or not, when fleeing a warzone, not everyone remembers to bring their papers! If ISIS did want to send a member in disguised as a refugee they would ensure he has his papers sooo what's the point? You'd be turning away so many innocent people in desperate need of aid.

And we would not be letting undocumented refugees. With ID's and passports you can document them, keep track of them and contact their home country for info. When you are in a database, you are essentially neutralized. It would decrease terrorist attacks. A government's priority is to ensure the safety of it's people FIRST, everything comes after that.

[Leprous]

Believe it or not, when fleeing a warzone, not everyone remembers to bring their papers! If ISIS did want to send a member in disguised as a refugee they would ensure he has his papers sooo what's the point? You'd be turning away so many innocent people in desperate need of aid.

The problem here is the fact you have no clue who these people are. The thing is, it has happened in Europe before. 2 of the attackers in Belgium were born here but that doesn't mean the others were. I don't agree with instantly sending them back but we do need a way to make sure that they are not extremists and that we can keep track of them.

[Exocet]

I love how the richer states like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait and UAE took in zero refugees meanwhile Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan together have a few million on their soil. Arab unity right there folks, can you see it? :yes:

Ummah only exists when it comes to destroy a fellow muslim country and turn it into a wahabi trash.

[Vlerchan]

As I have heard, they have the right to request asylum, but it's totally up to the government to decide if they stay.
No, the government processes your asylum request along the lines of their obligations as established under international law, that they signed up to.

[Stronk Serb]

No, the government processes your asylum request along the lines of their obligations as established under international law, that they signed up to.

Well, who does stick to these obligations?

[Vlerchan]

Well, who does stick to these obligations?
The European Union non-periphery, so far.

Nonetheless, them not learning a language fast enough does not make them less of a refugee, is my point.