Gunman at Gay Night Club Kills 20 People, Injures 40+ others (Orlando, FL)

[Microcosm]

A gunman killed at least 20 people and injured 42 others in a crowded gay nightclub in Florida early on Sunday before police shot him dead in what U.S. authorities described as a "terrorism incident."

A police officer working as a security guard inside the Pulse club exchanged fire with the suspect at about 2 a.m., police officials said.

A hostage situation quickly developed, and three hours later a squad of officers entered the club and shot dead the gunman. It was unclear when the gunman shot the victims.

"Do we consider this an act of terrorism? Absolutely, we are investigating this from all parties’ perspective as an act of terrorism," said Danny Banks, special agent in charge of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement Danny Banks.

[...]

At least one officer was injured in the gunbattle but the decision to storm the club saved at least 30 lives, Orlando Police Chief John Mina told a press conference.

The suspect was carrying an assault-type rifle and a handgun as well as an unidentified "device" on him, Mina said.

[...]

Police said they had carried out a "controlled explosion" at the club hours after the shooting broke out, but did not explain why that was done.

[...]

It was the second deadly shooting at an Orlando night spot in as many nights. Late Friday a man thought to be a deranged fan fatally shot Christina Grimmie, a rising singing star and a former contestant on "The Voice", while she was signing autographs after a concert in the Florida city.

Source: Reuters, http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-nightclub-idUSKCN0YY08B

Police are currently investigating the perimeter of the building before performing a deeper inspection of the inside. Victims have yet to be identified as of this post.

[Leprous]

I'm just waiting to see what Trump will say about this. It's terrible what happened though.

[Judean Zealot]

They're saying it appears to be Islamic terrorism - although they don't know for sure. This is from the BBC:

"An FBI spokesman said they were investigating whether the attacker was a "lone wolf". He said the attacker appeared to "have leanings towards" radical Islamist ideology but it was not yet clear whether this was a case of domestic or international terrorism."

[Flapjack]

This is sickening! How many more innocent people must be gunned down before there is any real gun control?!

[Jinglebottom]

That is so so sad.

The death toll has just risen from 20 to 50.

[phuckphace]

This is sickening! How many more innocent people must be gunned down before there is any real gun control?!

amigo since when do strict gun laws matter to terrorists

I'm pretty sure it's bloody illegal to strap bricks of RDX to your waist and blow yourself up in a crowded place but, uh, check the headlines. how would this plan of yours stop terrorism?

[Flapjack]

amigo since when do strict gun laws matter to terrorists

I'm pretty sure it's bloody illegal to strap bricks of RDX to your waist and blow yourself up in a crowded place but, uh, check the headlines. how would this plan of yours stop terrorism?
Because if the people can't get guns, nor can the terrorists. When you arm a whole nation, you're also arming the terrorists and gangsters.

Also I'd love to point out, why did no good man with a gun stop this shooter? The stupid right wing policies in the USA is killing its own people. The laws are not passed to protect people, they're passed because the USA is lead by corrupt politicians that are in bed with the NRA.

[Vlerchan]

I'm just waiting to see what Trump will say about this. It's terrible what happened though.
Really bad shooting in Orlando. Police investigating possible terrorism. Many people dead and wounded.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

How profoundly clinical.

Also I'd love to point out, why did no good man with a gun stop this shooter?
The shooter engaged in a brief shoout-out with an officer on duty before entering the club.

I've also never been inside a nightclub which allowed me to carry a firearm, which might explain the muted reaction inside the club.

[dxcxdzv]

Also I'd love to point out, why did no good man with a gun stop this shooter?

I've also never been inside a nightclub which allowed me to carry a firearm, which might explain the muted reaction inside the club.
Even if you were Lucky Luke I doubt that with 6 whiskeys in the belly, lights moving everywhere and stroboscopes you could even barely distinguish the shooter.

That would probably had ended up with even more deaths.

[Flapjack]

Even if you were Lucky Luke I doubt that with 6 whiskeys in the belly, lights moving everywhere and stroboscopes you could even barely distinguish the shooter.

That would probably had ended up with even more deaths.
Yep but even gun owner likes to think they're Billy The Kid! There was a story about a women who saw a theif driving away in a car, she was shooting at the car and none of her bullets hit. It was in a car park so the car couldn't have been that far away. If god forbid there is another mass shooting and there is a wannabe hero he would most likely as you say just kill more people.

[Living For Love]

This is extremely shocking. I don't think nonexistent gun control in the USA is the problem here, radical Islamic terrorism is (once again) the problem.

[Flapjack]

This is extremely shocking. I don't think nonexistent gun control in the USA is the problem here, radical Islamic terrorism is (once again) the problem.
I must disagree my friend! If the terrorist could not get his hands on any guns he would be forced to use another weapon like a knife. This is what happens in countries like the UK. Remember the terrorist who attacked people with a knife on the underground? horrific but not as deadly. It is also easier for the police to apprehend the suspect. In the insident previously mentioned in the UK the police subdued the man with a tazer.

It is also not just radical islamic terrorism, the USA has a huge problem with radical christian terrorism.

[Judean Zealot]

It is also not just radical islamic terrorism, the USA has a huge problem with radical christian terrorism.

Overstatement of the year. While rare events of Christian terror have occurred over the past 5 years, they are nothing compared to the Muslim ones, nor are they (the Christian terrorists) a massive international organisation funded by several states, as opposed to ISIS and such.

Also, I imagine the same way the terrorist obtained an explosive belt he would've obtained the gun.

I love how you liberals so earnestly go through the ostrich shuffle every time radical Islam comes up.

[Leprous]

I must disagree my friend! If the terrorist could not get his hands on any guns he would be forced to use another weapon like a knife. This is what happens in countries like the UK. Remember the terrorist who attacked people with a knife on the underground? horrific but not as deadly. It is also easier for the police to apprehend the suspect. In the insident previously mentioned in the UK the police subdued the man with a tazer.

It is also not just radical islamic terrorism, the USA has a huge problem with radical christian terrorism.

You know that people can still get guns illegaly right? Also if the guy walks in with a meat cleaver he can still kill and hurt allot of people.

Can you give an example of this radical christian terrorism though?

[Hudor]

This is shocking. Seems like a scene straight out of GTA.

[thatcountrykid]

Because if the people can't get guns, nor can the terrorists. When you arm a whole nation, you're also arming the terrorists and gangsters.

Also I'd love to point out, why did no good man with a gun stop this shooter? The stupid right wing policies in the USA is killing its own people. The laws are not passed to protect people, they're passed because the USA is lead by corrupt politicians that are in bed with the NRA.

Buddy criminals and terrorists still get the guns that are very much illegal. If cocaine is illegal, how to people get it.

And the reason nobody shot him is because it's illegal to carry a weapon inside a place that serves alcohol.

I must disagree my friend! If the terrorist could not get his hands on any guns he would be forced to use another weapon like a knife. This is what happens in countries like the UK. Remember the terrorist who attacked people with a knife on the underground? horrific but not as deadly. It is also easier for the police to apprehend the suspect. In the insident previously mentioned in the UK the police subdued the man with a tazer.

It is also not just radical islamic terrorism, the USA has a huge problem with radical christian terrorism.

I also must point out that France has gun control and the recent attacks there were done with AKs so please continue to tell me how guns being illegal makes it so terrorists can't get them.
Posts merged. Use the edit/multi quote button next time. ~Mars

[Flapjack]

You know that people can still get guns illegaly right? Also if the guy walks in with a meat cleaver he can still kill and hurt allot of people.

Oh so that explains all the mass shootings in the UK!! Oh wait... there hasn't been one in 6 years my bad! Yeah the guy with the meat cleaver is very dangerous and he could easily kill people but... often it is only 1 or 2 before he is stopped and he can be stopped with mace and tazers and riot shields.


Can you give an example of this radical christian terrorism though?
Yep.
Firstly there was the recent planned parenthood shootings and and then groups like the KKK spring to mind. The christain extrremists are much more of a threat to american people than the islamic terrorists.

As well as killing people that go against their radical religious beliefs, they also intimidate american citizens. For example, anti-islamic protesting outside their mosques.

[StoppingTom]

This is extremely shocking. I don't think nonexistent gun control in the USA is the problem here, radical Islamic terrorism is (once again) the problem.

The shooter had leanings toward radical Islam, but his father says that he recently saw two men kissing in front of his son in Miami, and flew into a rage. So it looks like this was hate-crime based as opposed to religiously.

[Flapjack]

Buddy criminals and terrorists still get the guns that are very much illegal. If cocaine is illegal, how to people get it.

And the reason nobody shot him is because it's illegal to carry a weapon inside a place that serves alcohol.
N'awr calling people buddy is my thing:D:D my friends tease me about it:') anyways off topic!!!

Unfortunately yes some will do! But it will be a lot less! Again look at the UK. No mass shooting in 6 years! But 6 years ago someone did get a gun:( I can't imagine the USA going a year without a mass shooting, let alone 6!


I love how you liberals so earnestly go through the ostrich shuffle every time radical Islam comes up.
I've never understood why conservitives think this? Ya know we're not members of ISIS right? We don't support themXD:lol:

[sqishy]

It's happened again.


As always, I wish the least pain for everyone involved.


This is an unusually bad event that is still part of a series of events that will necessarily be a thing, when the current legal/cultural environment in the US continues.

That's all I am going to say, because I have said a lot before.

[kevenity]

This is really horrible. I was just reading this and ISIS did claim responsibility and I'm not really surprised and wouldn't be shocked if there will be another attack soon.

I got a notification from CNN saying a HEAVILY armed man was arrested just before a gay pride event in LA today. He was thought to be headed towards the parade so its good the cops dealt with him before any harm could be done.

[sqishy]

Is there evidence on supporting or rejecting the explanation that this was being done because it was a gay bar?

Is it a hate crime? [For finality on this]

[Living For Love]

I must disagree my friend! If the terrorist could not get his hands on any guns he would be forced to use another weapon like a knife. This is what happens in countries like the UK. Remember the terrorist who attacked people with a knife on the underground? horrific but not as deadly. It is also easier for the police to apprehend the suspect. In the insident previously mentioned in the UK the police subdued the man with a tazer.

It is also not just radical islamic terrorism, the USA has a huge problem with radical christian terrorism.
Do you have any evidence the shooter acquired his weapons and explosives arsenal legally?

The shooter had leanings toward radical Islam, but his father says that he recently saw two men kissing in front of his son in Miami, and flew into a rage. So it looks like this was hate-crime based as opposed to religiously.
The suspect was affiliated with ISIS ideology, and that organisation has just claimed the attack. So yes, it was jihadism and radical Islamic terrorism, not a simple hate-crime.

[sqishy]

The suspect was affiliated with ISIS ideology, and that organisation has just claimed the attack.

The organisation can claim attacks that they did not do, making people think it was them. Could it be that the person happened to go with the ideology but was not actually 'sent'/instructed by them?

[Bull]

This is horrific! We who are planning Pride participation need to be diligent and careful. There are a lot of nuts out there who crack at the sight of two same gender individuals engaged in PDA! Example: the Lt. Gov. of Texas.

[Flapjack]

Do you have any evidence the shooter acquired his weapons and explosives arsenal legally?
Nope but many do buddy and there needs to be a crack down on illegal guns.

My friends don't take this as me disagreeing with you personally, I know you are a good person and we both recognize their is an issue, we just disagree on the best way to solve it.

[Porpoise101]

It is disappointing that these backwards militant freaks roam our cities. We need to establish a system of militant secularism to combat bigotry from the right.

I would also consider this a hate crime because we don't really know if IS was involved directly. It's more likely that he's a sick fanboy.

[Living For Love]

The organisation can claim attacks that they did not do, making people think it was them. Could it be that the person happened to go with the ideology but was not actually 'sent'/instructed by them?
That's possible, indeed.

Nope but many do buddy and there needs to be a crack down on illegal guns.

My friends don't take this as me disagreeing with you personally, I know you are a good person and we both recognize their is an issue, we just disagree on the best way to solve it.
Oh, I'm all for cracking down on illegal stuff, whether it's guns, drugs or immigration.

[Flapjack]

now more than 53 people are confirmed dead.

[Vlerchan]

Do you have any evidence the shooter acquired his weapons and explosives arsenal legally?
#breaking #Orlando shooter guns purchased legally. He also worked for #G4S worlds biggest private security company

https://twitter.com/mattgutmanABC/status/742078948654227456?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Gutman is a reporter for ABC news. I'd link a news article but I'm having issues with my broadband and it's taking ages to load the news-site. The gunman had a permit, too.

There hasn't been news released on the explosive device that I am aware of - it could have been home-made, as much as it could have been purchased illegally.

---

On France, those were smuggled across Europe (remember, no borders) from wehre it was possible to purchase them legally (though, they were still stolen, I believe).

Donald Trump has also started sounding a bit more Trumpite on his twitter.

[Hideous]

A man was arrested earlier in LA on his way to pride with possible explosives and a cache of weapons.

-

This is unfortunate. Rest in peace to the lives lost and my thoughts are with the families.

[Dalcourt]

Whatever the motivation for this attack might or might not have been.
In the end all that matters is that a lot of innocent people lost their lives for nothing. May they all rest in peace.

[mattsmith48]

This is what happen when terrorists are allowed to legally buy and own guns. The only people who should be allowed to have an assault rifle is the millitary. Also a few hours after this happen another person in california is arrested with carring guns and explosives with the intention of killing gay people at gay pride parade. Now do people agree with me when i say ban guns.

Dont blame muslims the religion of the person who did this is irrevevent because all religion promate hate and the killing of gay people

[Moriya]

This is scary. May my heart go out to the families of the unfortunate victims.

ffs can 2016 end already?

[DriveAlive]

Not all religions promote killing of gays. Islam sure does, though. During Ramadan in Muslim countries, gays are targeted and killed by Muslims. This is not a gun control debate, but a debate about what cultures and religions we will accept in the name of tolerance. People love to attack Christians and support Islam to show how politically correct they are, but the reality is that Islamic culture violates every human right that liberalism promotes. Truly a disgusting culture that kills women and gays.

[Flapjack]

Not all religions promote killing of gays. Islam sure does, though. During Ramadan in Muslim countries, gays are targeted and killed by Muslims. This is not a gun control debate, but a debate about what cultures and religions we will accept in the name of tolerance. People love to attack Christians and support Islam to show how politically correct they are, but the reality is that Islamic culture violates every human right that liberalism promotes. Truly a disgusting culture that kills women and gays.
It is not the Islamic culture it is extremists hijacking a religion! I am not trying to be politically correct I am pointing out that violent terrorists are capable of hijacking any religion! Even Buddism!

Have you ever met a muslim? Or do you get all your ideas from fox news.

[Melodic]

This is truly such a shitty year.

My heart is for all of the families and friends affected by this.

[Flapjack]

This is truly such a shitty year.

My heart is for all of the families and friends affected by this.
Why else is it a shitty year?

[DriveAlive]

It is not the Islamic culture it is extremists hijacking a religion! I am not trying to be politically correct I am pointing out that violent terrorists are capable of hijacking any religion! Even Buddism!

Have you ever met a muslim? Or do you get all your ideas from fox news.

Just to be correct, I watch BBC World News. I have friends from the Middle East who despise Islam for how it oppresses people.

[Vlerchan]

"Islamic culture", as I argued before, is highly heterogeneous, and any all-inclusive anti-Islamic sentiment is pretty misguided as a result.

---

Buddhists have also shown themselves to be capable of considerable militancy historically (and, actually, currently).

[Flapjack]

Just to be correct, I watch BBC World News. I have friends from the Middle East who despise Islam for how it oppresses people.
It is not islam that opresses, it is the leaders. Just like how it is not christianity that opposes gay marriage, it is leaders of the church and political figues that like being in the 'religious' party.

This is why we need immigration and integration. In my school there is many Muslims, one of them is in my Biology and one of the nicest girls I know! Easily 10x nicer than the average white guys I know. When people actually know the people, they see that they're just like everyone else.

[DriveAlive]

It is not islam that opresses, it is the leaders. Just like how it is not christianity that opposes gay marriage, it is leaders of the church and political figues that like being in the 'religious' party.

This is why we need immigration and integration. In my school there is many Muslims, one of them is in my Biology and one of the nicest girls I know! Easily 10x nicer than the average white guys I know. When people actually know the people, they see that they're just like everyone else.
I am not talking about the small minority of good Muslims, just like I am not talking about the small minority of terrorist Muslims. I am talking about the majority of average Muslims that still promote the intolerance and hatred in the Muslim world. The Islamic world creates more of these terrorist attacks than any other group, which suggests that the religion promotes violent action and the average Muslims are not doing their part to stop this type of radical action. Not to mention, many Islamic scholars say that it can be argued that ISIS follows a correct inner predation of Islam.

[Gumleaf]

Again, another gun tragedy in the US. It's almost a weekly event! I think gun control is the only way to make any sort of difference. The trouble is that no government/administration has the balls to go up against the strong gun lobby. Until someone does, this will continue. A terrorist event was recently avoided here because the terrorist to be couldn't get access to the gun he needed to perform his attack and he was captured before anything happened. At the end of the day, another very sad day.

[SethfromMI]

This is sickening! How many more innocent people must be gunned down before there is any real gun control?!

terrorists are going to obey gun laws? ISIS is concerned about being legal? yea ok?

my heart does go out to all of those friends and family who are effected by this :( it is tragic and while there is different blame to go around, I am not sure today is the day we should be pointing fingers. one man acted in this hate filled crime and he is dead. why he is from an organization which lives on hate, today is a day to be with the victims who are still in the hospital and the friends and loved ones.

edit: to people who say if we make guns illegal this would not be an issue, let's make murder illegal, then there would be no murders

[Flapjack]

I am not talking about the small minority of good Muslims, just like I am not talking about the small minority of terrorist Muslims. I am talking about the majority of average Muslims that still promote the intolerance and hatred in the Muslim world. The Islamic world creates more of these terrorist attacks than any other group, which suggests that the religion promotes violent action and the average Muslims are not doing their part to stop this type of radical action. Not to mention, many Islamic scholars say that it can be argued that ISIS follows a correct inner predation of Islam.
How do you know what Islam promotes? Where I am from all the muslims I have met are tolerent and friendly and inclusive! The majority of christians in the USA oppress people, they oppress the gays, the transexual, the muslims and the blacks. Does that suggest that christianity promotes violent action? Ever herd of the crusades?

Yeah and there are many Islamic scholars that say ISIS don't. The reality is all these religions are thousands of years old and have different texts that support different thing. Religion can be either used to promote peace or violence.

terrorists are going to obey gun laws? ISIS is concerned about being legal? yea ok?

my heart does go out to all of those friends and family who are effected by this :frown: it is tragic and while there is different blame to go around, I am not sure today is the day we should be pointing fingers. one man acted in this hate filled crime and he is dead. why he is from an organization which lives on hate, today is a day to be with the victims who are still in the hospital and the friends and loved ones.

edit: to people who say if we make guns illegal this would not be an issue, let's make murder illegal, then there would be no murders
Again, explain why there has been no mass shooting in the UK in 6 years. 6 years ago a terrorist did get a gun but I'm sure you can agree it is a lot less frequent. I can't even imagine the USA going a year without a mass shooting. How many schools must be shot up before they take the guns away?!

[Jinglebottom]

How do you know what Islam promotes? Where I am from all the muslims I have met are tolerent and friendly and inclusive
Where are you from? (I'm curious)

[SethfromMI]

How do you know what Islam promotes? Where I am from all the muslims I have met are tolerent and friendly and inclusive! The majority of christians in the USA oppress people, they oppress the gays, the transexual, the muslims and the blacks. Does that suggest that christianity promotes violent action? Ever herd of the crusades?

Yeah and there are many Islamic scholars that say ISIS don't. The reality is all these religions are thousands of years old and have different texts that support different thing. Religion can be either used to promote peace or violence.


Again, explain why there has been no mass shooting in the UK in 6 years. 6 years ago a terrorist did get a gun but I'm sure you can agree it is a lot less frequent. I can't even imagine the USA going a year without a mass shooting. How many schools must be shot up before they take the guns away?!

terrorists are not going to obey gun laws. ISIS is not going to say, "oh guns are illegal in America now, golly darn gee wiz, I guess we can't use guns anymore."

[DriveAlive]

How do you know what Islam promotes? Where I am from all the muslims I have met are tolerent and friendly and inclusive! The majority of christians in the USA oppress people, they oppress the gays, the transexual, the muslims and the blacks. Does that suggest that christianity promotes violent action? Ever herd of the crusades?

Yeah and there are many Islamic scholars that say ISIS don't. The reality is all these religions are thousands of years old and have different texts that support different thing. Religion can be either used to promote peace or violence.
Do you see any reason why gays would not like to live in an Islamic country? The USA does not oppress people. Yes there are problems, but we are becoming much better. In fact, political correctness has gone so far that people are afraid to call out Islam for the hate the espouse toward gays and women. This is evinced by the fact that people love jumping all over Catholics for saying that they do not support gay marriage, yet ignore honor killings in Muslim countries. Also, the crusades were Catholics reclaiming land that was forcibly taken by the Muslims, who killed many Cathlics and Jews in the process.

[Flapjack]

Where are you from? (I'm curious)
I'd rather not say my friend:)
Again, another gun tragedy in the US. It's almost a weekly event! I think gun control is the only way to make any sort of difference. The trouble is that no government/administration has the balls to go up against the strong gun lobby. Until someone does, this will continue. A terrorist event was recently avoided here because the terrorist to be couldn't get access to the gun he needed to perform his attack and he was captured before anything happened. At the end of the day, another very sad day.
I have the same frustration. Not only do they not have the balls, the corrupt basterds take the NRAs money! Or has nobody put 2+2 together and figured out that is why they put out all the good guy with a gun bullshit!
The USA does not oppress people.

I wish that was true. They are currently trying to crack down on trans people using the bathroom they identify with. They are hostile towards muslims too. That's assuming you ignore the less serious stuff like the wide-spread racism and sexism.
yet ignore honor killings in Muslim countries.
Not being descrimitory towards muslims does not condone such honor killings.

[Vlerchan]

The Middle East and North Africa contain just 20% of the worlds Muslim population.

Westerners notions of 'The Muslim World' are highly fictitious.

---

Edit: Judean Zealot might be better to confirm, but weren't the Jews better treated under the Muslims than Catholics in and around the time of the crusades? Largely because the Muslims didn't believe in forcing conversion.

Though, this is all profoundly irrelevant to modern Jihadist movements and there consequences.

[mattsmith48]

terrorists are not going to obey gun laws. ISIS is not going to say, "oh guns are illegal in America now, golly darn gee wiz, I guess we can't use guns anymore."

No but it would make it harder for them to get a gun

[DriveAlive]

The Middle East and North Africa contain just 20% of the worlds Muslim population.

Westerners notions of 'The Muslim World' are highly fictitious.

If I am correct, Indonesia has the highest population of Muslims. My friend from Indonesia said that the violence from Muslim groups is out of control there.

[mattsmith48]

The USA does not oppress people.

What it happens all the time

[SethfromMI]

No but it would make it harder for them to get a gun

eh maybe slightly, but honestly, how much gets through the southern border everyday? these terrorists are getting in the first place? here is the thing, if people want to murder, they are going to find ways to murder. if they want to create chaos, they are going to. we got a president in America who doesn't give a damn about terrorists getting in, it is our fault we wanted him to be president in the first place. honestly though,, if the terrorists want to bring in guns or whatever else, they are going to.

I am not saying sell an assault rifle to any random joe who walks into the shop, but we have to stop pretending simply taking guns away is the only solution. criminals don't obey laws. if they want guns in here, I guarantee you they will get their hands on them, through one channel or another

[Jinglebottom]

I'd rather not say my friend:)
Well let me just tell you that my Muslim friends would celebrate upon finding out the people killed were "disgusting fags" (their words).

[Flapjack]

Well let me just tell you that my Muslim friends would celebrate upon finding out the people killed were "disgusting fags" (their words).
That is unfortunate my friend, but that is not what all Muslims are like.

[Drewboyy]

How do you know what Islam promotes? Where I am from all the muslims I have met are tolerent and friendly and inclusive! The majority of christians in the USA oppress people, they oppress the gays, the transexual, the muslims and the blacks. Does that suggest that christianity promotes violent action? Ever herd of the crusades?



The majority of Christians in the USA oppress people? If anything, the worst thing they do is not want to make a cake for a gay guy (and there are tons of black christians, but do you see any black muslims?). I'd love to see someone with a lgbt flag go into Saudi Arabia or Iraq and see how accepting they are over there.

[mattsmith48]

eh maybe slightly, but honestly, how much gets through the southern border everyday? these terrorists are getting in the first place? here is the thing, if people want to murder, they are going to find ways to murder. if they want to create chaos, they are going to. we got a president in America who doesn't give a damn about terrorists getting in, it is our fault we wanted him to be president in the first place. honestly though,, if the terrorists want to bring in guns or whatever else, they are going to.

I am not saying sell an assault rifle to any random joe who walks into the shop, but we have to stop pretending simply taking guns away is the only solution. criminals don't obey laws. if they want guns in here, I guarantee you they will get their hands on them, through one channel or another

Well this terrorist was american citizen who as on the FBI watch list and was able to legally get and own an assault riffle. he was ''random joe who walks into the shop'' and bought a gun like you buy a pack of gum. Yes if you absolutly want to kill someone you might find another way if you cant get a gun but atlease some gun control could prevent most murders, and its not only murders but also alot of suicides that could be prevented with gun control.

[Drewboyy]

What it happens all the time

Oppress is a very strong word, even discriminating is pushing it

[Jinglebottom]

That is unfortunate my friend, but that is not what all Muslims are like.
I am surrounded by homophobic Muslims (I have never met one who didn't demonize gays) and Lebanon is considered one of the more "liberal and westernized" Middle Eastern/Muslim countries. If they can't even tolerate the sight of two men/women holding hands then what do you expect from the Muslims living in other countries? I don't get it. I would've come out by now if I felt safe here. I don't.

[SethfromMI]

Well this terrorist was american citizen who as on the FBI watch list and was able to legally get and own an assault riffle. he was ''random joe who walks into the shop'' and bought a gun like you buy a pack of gum. Yes if you absolutly want to kill someone you might find another way if you cant get a gun but atlease some gun control could prevent most murders, and its not only murders but also alot of suicides that could be prevented with gun control.

how do criminals who aren't allowed to buy guns still get guns? criminals can get guns illegal and if you think that's not the case, you need a reality check. by your logic, if cocaine was illegal there would be no way to get it.

[mattsmith48]

The majority of Christians in the USA oppress people? If anything, the worst thing they do is not want to make a cake for a gay guy (and there are tons of black christians, but do you see any black muslims?). I'd love to see someone with a lgbt flag go into Saudi Arabia or Iraq and see how accepting they are over there.

Some Christians are killing and want to kill people for being gay.

[Flapjack]

The majority of Christians in the USA oppress people?
Never said that. Just like islam, different people take different messages from their religion.
the worst thing they do is not want to make a cake for a gay guy
Or shoot up abortion clinics. 60 years ago they were lynching black people. Also, it is not okay to refuse to sell a cake to a gay guy.
black muslims?
This just shows how little you know about the topic. Look at Algeria and half of Africa. For the record there is also white muslims, hispanic muslims and albino muslims.

I am surrounded by homophobic Muslims (I have never met one who didn't demonize gays) and Lebanon is considered one of the more "liberal and westernized" Middle Eastern/Muslim countries. If they can't even tolerate the sight of two men/women holding hands then what do you expect from the Muslims living in other countries? I don't get it. I would've come out by now if I felt safe here. I don't.

I am sorry to hear that my friend! I'll pm you and tell you where I am from:)

[Judean Zealot]

The Middle East and North Africa contain just 20% of the worlds Muslim population.

Westerners notions of 'The Muslim World' are highly fictitious.

---

Edit: Judean Zealot might be better to confirm, but weren't the Jews better treated under the Muslims than Catholics in and around the time of the crusades? Largely because the Muslims didn't believe in forcing conversion.

Though, this is all profoundly irrelevant to modern Jihadist movements and there consequences.

You are absolutely correct. As a matter of fact, Maimonides was Saladin's personal physician. But I agree, this is irrelevant.

[Jinglebottom]

I am sorry to hear that my friend! I'll pm you and tell you where I am from:)
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as bitchy, but I just want to make something clear: If the so-called "westernized" Lebanese Muslims find even the smallest mention of homosexuality completely repugnant, then you can't expect the Muslims in countries like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Sudan to have a more accepting attitude. Of course there are exceptions but I'm talking about the general population.

[Flapjack]

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as bitchy, but I just want to make something clear: If the so-called "westernized" Lebanese Muslims find even the smallest mention of homosexuality completely repugnant, then you can't expect the Muslims in countries like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Sudan to have a more accepting attitude. Of course there are exceptions but I'm talking about the general population.

But that is the culture of the country, not the religion. It is not okay what they're doing my friend but their terrible actions do not warrent the steryeotypes in the USA.

[mattsmith48]

how do criminals who aren't allowed to buy guns still get guns? criminals can get guns illegal and if you think that's not the case, you need a reality check. by your logic, if cocaine was illegal there would be no way to get it.

If a cop catch you with cocaine they know its illegal and they will arrest you for possession. since in the us its legal to own and carry a gun a cop will not arrest everyone they see walking around ask them if they got their gun legally or not because they have other shit to do, if guns are illegal when a cop see someone with one he knows he got it illegally and will arrest him most of the time before he kill anyone with that illegal gun. Like here we have strick gun control if any one would have saw someone walk around with an assault riffle they would have called the cops immediately and no one would have been hurt

[Flapjack]

how do criminals who aren't allowed to buy guns still get guns? criminals can get guns illegal and if you think that's not the case, you need a reality check. by your logic, if cocaine was illegal there would be no way to get it.
Look at the UK. When everyone has a gun it is very easy for a criminal to get a gun. I don't know much about drugs, but I know cocaine is extracted from leaves. Have fun making your own gun.

[Jinglebottom]

But that is the culture of the country, not the religion. It is not okay what they're doing my friend but their terrible actions do not warrent the steryeotypes in the USA.
And yet our culture is supposedly one of the most westernized ones in the Muslim world.

[Flapjack]

And yet our culture is supposedly one of the most westernized ones in the Muslim world.
I know nothing about your culture my friend but just because a country is 'westernized' does not mean its problems float away. Every country has problems. The west has many.

[SethfromMI]

Look at the UK. When everyone has a gun it is very easy for a criminal to get a gun. I don't know much about drugs, but I know cocaine is extracted from leaves. Have fun making your own gun.

are you suggesting terrorists could not bring guns into the UK and start killing people? not too many people can make guns, but some can. people can obviously make bombs. uk knows about terrorists being able to make bombs. or was it legal to do so before the bombings which happened in your subway system a number of years ago.

but hey, lets not blame the terrorists. if we just take everyone's guns away, the terrorists will join us around the campfire singing songs and roasting marshmallows

[Flapjack]

but hey, lets not blame the terrorists. if we just take everyone's guns away, the terrorists will join us around the campfire singing songs and roasting marshmallows
Did I ever say don't blame the terrorists? This is about preventing terrorism.

are you suggesting terrorists could not bring guns into the UK and start killing people? not too many people can make guns, but some can. people can obviously make bombs. uk knows about terrorists being able to make bombs. or was it legal to do so before the bombings which happened in your subway system a number of years ago.

Unfortunatley bombs are a lot harder to control. Blame chemistry. It has been 6 years since the last mass shooting in the UK. Why do you think that is? All the good guys with guns? Most police in the UK don't even carry guns. If somebody knows how to minipulate magnus forces and make guns in their garage that is a scary thought. Knifes and bombs are the real threat in the UK.

It makes me sick to my stomach when every other week innocent children are gunned down and all the gun nuts shift the blame. There are evil people in every country but only in the USA do they seem to love arming them.

[Jinglebottom]

I know nothing about your culture my friend but just because a country is 'westernized' does not mean its problems float away. Every country has problems. The west has many.
Yes, the West does have many problems indeed. Gays being thrown off buildings and receiving the death penalty in the name of Sharia law isn't one.

[SethfromMI]

Did I ever say don't blame the terrorists? This is about preventing terrorism.



Unfortunatley bombs are a lot harder to control. Blame chemistry. It has been 6 years since the last mass shooting in the UK. Why do you think that is? All the good guys with guns? Most police in the UK don't even carry guns. If somebody knows how to minipulate magnus forces and make guns in their garage that is a scary thought. Knifes and bombs are the real threat in the UK.

It makes me sick to my stomach when every other week innocent children are gunned down and all the gun nuts shift the blame. There are evil people in every country but only in the USA do they seem to love arming them.

maybe they are getting the fucking guns from their terrorists friends. is this not a possibility. are you saying if zero American citizen had a gun to buy/sell/whatever, there would be zero shootings here in America? if you think that, I say again, you need a reality check.

so what if there is ever (and I pray it never happens) a mass shooting in the UK? are you going to blame the terrorists like you should? or will you blame Americans for having guns in America?

[Vlerchan]

My friend from Indonesia said that the violence from Muslim groups is out of control there.
The last number of years have been relatively peaceful (there was a bombing in January [3 dead] and little for a half-decade previous), particularly when contrasted to the past, and especially when contrasted to prevailing conditions in the Middle East (of the ~700 terrorist incidents that have taken place this year, the vast, vast majority have occurred in the Middle East, and then North Africa*).

---

* It seems clear from the distribution of the attacks that there is a more fundamental driver than Islam.

This is not to deny the agency of Islamist movements - the actual cause is an intersection of this driver with Islam - but rather I find that Islam causing terrorism to be quite incomplete.

black muslims
Cassius Clay was born and raised in Louisville, Kentucky, and began training as a boxer when he was 12 years old. At 18, he won the Light Heavyweight gold medal in the 1960 Summer Olympics in Rome, and converted to Islam shortly afterwards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali

African-Americans make up about a quarter of American Muslims.

Though, outside the US, a large proportion of both Sub-Saharan Africa are Muslim.

[Flapjack]

are you going to blame the terrorists
Again you insinuate that I do not blame the killer?! I do blame the killer but I also blame the corrupt US goverment that allows it.

maybe they are getting the fucking guns from their terrorists friends.

And where did their fucking terrorist friend get them from? Also you are ignoring how the people that have no previous criminal past can go buy hundreds of armor piercing rounds and automatic weapons.
are you saying if zero American citizen had a gun to buy/sell/whatever, there would be zero shootings here in America? if you think that, I say again, you need a reality check.


Nope! I am saying it would be a lot less! There would also be less accidental shootings.


so what if there is ever (and I pray it never happens) a mass shooting in the UK? are you going to blame the terrorists like you should? or will you blame Americans for having guns in America?

The UK is just like any other country with out a stupid terrifying lack of gun control. It is not impossible for terrorists to get guns in the UK and anyone that says it is, is lying! Some guns can be bought legally in the UK. Assuming the gun owner passes checks and has a reason to have the guns and stores them securly. Of course this is stupid and if you ask me all guns should be banned, in the UK and in every developed country.

[SethfromMI]

Again you insinuate that I do not blame the killer?! I do blame the killer but I also blame the corrupt US goverment that allows it.



And where did their fucking terrorist friend get them from? Also you are ignoring how the people that have no previous criminal past can go buy hundreds of armor piercing rounds and automatic weapons.

Nope! I am saying it would be a lot less! There would also be less accidental shootings.



The UK is just like any other country with out a stupid terrifying lack of gun control. It is not impossible for terrorists to get guns in the UK and anyone that says it is, is lying! Some guns can be bought legally in the UK. Assuming the gun owner passes checks and has a reason to have the guns and stores them securly. Of course this is stupid and if you ask me all guns should be banned, in the UK and in every developed country.

and yet, terrorists will still get them. what part of criminal says they will obey the law?

[Flapjack]

and yet, terrorists will still get them. what part of criminal says they will obey the law?
Ooooo do they have a magic wand??

[SethfromMI]

Ooooo do they have a magic wand??

apparently you think taking guns away from those who have them legally and don't do shit, will make terrorists magically love America and magically want to be peaceful

[mattsmith48]

apparently you think taking guns away from those who have them legally and don't do shit, will make terrorists magically love America and magically want to be peaceful

No you will make terrorist stop hating america when you guys stop fighting them with terrorism

[SethfromMI]

No you will make terrorist stop hating america when you guys stop fighting them with terrorism

you think terrorists are just peace loving people who only do what they do because they are being challenged? so tell me, what did those in Orlando do to fight the terrorist, huh?

[Flapjack]

apparently you think taking guns away from those who have them legally and don't do shit, will make terrorists magically love America and magically want to be peaceful
And letting everyone in the country have guns will stop them?

Americans are the greatest threat to America in terms of terrorist attacks> Not the foreign terrorists you're thinking of. Making guns illegal will stop most of the accidental shootings.

Newsflash, a terrorist can get them legally. Also most guns on the black market were once legal.

you think terrorists are just peace loving people who only do what they do because they are being challenged? so tell me, what did those in Orlando do to fight the terrorist, huh?
You missed his point. The USA invades country, massacres hundreds of thousands of civillians, displacing millions, destroying cities and then just leaving and are suprised when the survivor want to destroy them.



Posts merged. Next time, please use the 'edit' button. -Alluring

[SethfromMI]

And letting everyone in the country have guns will stop them?

Americans are the greatest threat to America in terms of terrorist attacks> Not the foreign terrorists you're thinking of. Making guns illegal will stop most of the accidental shootings.

Newsflash, a terrorist can get them legally. Also most guns on the black market were once legal.

bu your acting like by making guns illegal, they will just throw up their hands and not be able to do any harm anymore. that's STUPID

[Flapjack]

bu your acting like by making guns illegal, they will just throw up their hands and not be able to do any harm anymore. that's STUPID

let me ask you this... when the terrorists flew planes into your cities what did the USA do? They intoduced proventitive peasures. Thank the gods so far it seems to be working. So why when the terrorists are gunning you down do you not do the same?

[SethfromMI]

let me ask you this... when the terrorists flew planes into your cities what did the USA do? They intoduced proventitive peasures. Thank the gods so far it seems to be working. So why when the terrorists are gunning you down do you not do the same?


because now we have a President who many believe to be helping the terrorists we once fought against. that's a whole another issue.

the fact is we are more concerned about taking guns away form legal citizens who have not done anything wrong than stopping terrorists, when the man who did this declared his allegiance to ISIS is just sad

[mattsmith48]

you think terrorists are just peace loving people who only do what they do because they are being challenged? so tell me, what did those in Orlando do to fight the terrorist, huh?

What TheFlapjack said plus, ISIS hate america because they are too involved in the middle east. Im not saying they are not bad im saying they hate you because your there. If the US werent there, ISIS would still attack people and do terrorism in the middle east.

You missed his point. The USA invades country, massacres hundreds of thousands of civillians, displacing millions, destroying cities and then just leaving and are suprised when the survivor want to destroy them.

[Flapjack]

because now we have a President who many believe to be helping the terrorists we once fought against. that's a whole another issue.
I am lost? How is this related to my post? Also how is it true?

the fact is we are more concerned about taking guns away form legal citizens who have not done anything wrong than stopping terrorists, when the man who did this declared his allegiance to ISIS is just sad

Do you not understand the taking of more guns away would be a significant advance for the fight against terrorism.

How do you suggest we stop the gunning down of innocents in schools theatres and now gay clubs? I love the USA but this crap shouldn't be in a developed country.

[SethfromMI]

What TheFlapjack said plus, ISIS hate america because they are too involved in the middle east. Im not saying they are not bad im saying they hate you because your there. If the US werent there, ISIS would still attack people and do terrorism in the middle east.

I personally feel even if we were not there, these type of attacks would still happen. I am not one of those people who say all people who are from the Middle East or are Islamic are radical, because that's just not fair. what I will say a radical group like that, which i filled with as much hate as they are would still do those acts of terrorism over here as well as over there. I fear it will only get worse, not here, but in Europe and other places where other individuals who want to cause terrorism have been able to get into.

[Melodic]

Why else is it a shitty year?

With all of the deaths happening.

[Uniquemind]

Nothing will change.

But I do not know of many knife attacks with this level of a body count.

There's a reason militaries don't use knives tactically.

However no one country can control gun flow, and when this topic comes up all sides need to acknowledge the saturation of what is already in circulation, before people start seeing real effects from any new restrictions.

What could be done is that gun sales would have to be restricted, background checks enforced and maintained with mental health checks, tax started for every sale for future victim funds (funerals and hospital trauma bill and psychological therapy costs as well for surviving families).


There was a tragedy in Norway less than 7 years ago too that was pretty bad, but note that the gun was bought in America or from a US website and used abroad.

So to say that some country's gun control laws don't work, is partly due to "American Freedom" influencing global travel and economy.

[Flapjack]

With all of the deaths happening.
Welcome to America. The country where the biggest threat, is themselves.

[Meron]

So who we blaming again?

[Flapjack]

So who we blaming again?
ISIS has taken responsibility.

[Uniquemind]

We could also pass a law forcing only certain methods of payment be used in order to purchase a gun in tandem with a background check with run-in's with the law, and data mining their social network.

Look retail algorithms already are smart enough to target people with ads, and accurately predict if someone is pregnant or not based on shopping patterns alone.

GPS data already exists regarding movement and time spent in certain locations, you cross reference that with other info, and you will get a good outcome if someone is a threat when they buy a gun or not.

[Leprous]

Not all religions promote killing of gays. Islam sure does, though. During Ramadan in Muslim countries, gays are targeted and killed by Muslims. This is not a gun control debate, but a debate about what cultures and religions we will accept in the name of tolerance. People love to attack Christians and support Islam to show how politically correct they are, but the reality is that Islamic culture violates every human right that liberalism promotes. Truly a disgusting culture that kills women and gays.

Not all Muslims do this, you should know this. I have been to countries like Dubai and Malaysia who have a pretty big Muslim population and I must say they are very nice people.

The countries you are referring to are most likely Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iraq, who are 3 examples of why extremists are bad in any shape or form. Not all Muslims are gay hating murderers and saying ALL Muslims are bad and that ALL Muslims hate gays and women is extremely ignorant. (And you are doing this).

I can also talk about how Christians treath the LGTB community and how they sometimes even treath women. I can now also say because some of them do this ALL of the Christians are bad people and that their community is disgusting. I'm not doing this because that is extremely stupid to say.

Right now you are targeting an entire religion and culture for the acts of some.

[phuckphace]

ISIS has taken responsibility.

how the fuck did they manage that, isn't terrorism illegal

but sure let's tinker with some laws and they'll just quit blowing stuff up amirite. with illegal munitions.

[Bull]

I am a hunter. I own a couple of hunting rifles. However, I do not need/want an assault rifle for hunting game. Assault rifles were developed for one purpose: kill people! No civilian has a need for an assault rifle. The NRA is wrong in it's building fear that people's guns are going to be taken away. The NRA needs a reality check. People who have no business owning an assault rifle are killing people with same. Ban ordinary citizens ownership of weapons of mass destruction, NOW! The Orlando murder bought those weapons in recent days. If he could not have purchased same, maybe, just maybe a huge number of our brothers and sisters would not be dead, injured, and their friends and families would not be suffering such horrible pain.

[Southside]

Tragic..Why was this guy taken off the FBI watch list

Wish it was a national outcry of the same magnitude when 70 people were shot Memorial Day weekend in Chicago

[Leprous]

Again you insinuate that I do not blame the killer?! I do blame the killer but I also blame the corrupt US goverment that allows it.



And where did their fucking terrorist friend get them from? Also you are ignoring how the people that have no previous criminal past can go buy hundreds of armor piercing rounds and automatic weapons.

Nope! I am saying it would be a lot less! There would also be less accidental shootings.



The UK is just like any other country with out a stupid terrifying lack of gun control. It is not impossible for terrorists to get guns in the UK and anyone that says it is, is lying! Some guns can be bought legally in the UK. Assuming the gun owner passes checks and has a reason to have the guns and stores them securly. Of course this is stupid and if you ask me all guns should be banned, in the UK and in every developed country.

You know, to me you seem to ignore the fact that having full gun control doesn't take away the problems. Let's first look at Paris:

France has gun control, they had 2 shootings in 1 year.

Here in Belgium, multiple weapons have been found in apparments that were housed by extremists. Do we have gun control? Of course we do.

The problem here is partly the guns, but mainly the people themselves, which you seem to ignore completely. Yes gun control can help, but there's this thing called the black market, and illegal gun smugglers. They can't be stopped by simple gun control.

You seem to believe piece can be gained by simply making a new law, it can't. You can't just say "STOP! Terrorist you shall no longer shoot people because we now have gun control!" That won't stop a single one of them.

I still think having unarmed police in the UK is extremely stupid, incase some guy starts shooting at people, how do they stop him? Maybe they'll ask him politely to stop shooting that might help.

[Flapjack]

how the fuck did they manage that, isn't terrorism illegal

but sure let's tinker with some laws and they'll just quit blowing stuff up amirite. with illegal munitions.
There will always be bad people out there that want to do bad thing, the USA just makes it super easy for them.

You also are only thinking about terrorists, not the accidental shootings or arguments turning into shootings.

Illegal guns will be a problem for a while in the USA so gangs can still get guns but the average guy that has a break down and decides to visit a school with an assult weapon won't happen as much.

Also look at data from brazil
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/Y0uk6i1iVAVP5gBE3FCx_srBNoHv3EybJI-khYXnI15ADMqiw0OpY-kYoWqWO4i0jKP9LtmUqVG9ojToexBAsZD5r2oA9XUbIe70iAIK6Xb0p4jD_mdquqpaThe fact that gun control will not wipe out all gun violence is not a reason to not have any progress.
You know, to me you seem to ignore the fact that having full gun control doesn't take away the problems. Let's first look at Paris:

France has gun control, they had 2 shootings in 1 year.

.
2 shootings is way too many I agree! But they have not had 64 school shootings in 2015. They did not have 372 mass shootings in 2015. (For those that are bad at maths, this makes the average more than once a day.)

Ooooo I have more facts for you
http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/134DB/production/_85876097_homicides_guns_624_v3.png



Here in Belgium, multiple weapons have been found in apparments that were housed by extremists. Do we have gun control? Of course we do.



Thank god they found the guns. Just because some terrorists can get guns is not a reason to endanger the country any further!


I still think having unarmed police in the UK is extremely stupid, incase some guy starts shooting at people, how do they stop him? Maybe they'll ask him politely to stop shooting that might help.
There is armed police buddy that come if there is a shooting, it just isn't justified to arm every police officer when there is so little gun violence.

There are bad eggs in every police force and whilst the police in Europe are a lot better trained than the police in the USA so there is less bad eggs, at least the British bad eggs can only punch and taze you. (For the record not all UK police carry tazers.) In the USA bad eggs love shooting people, it happens far too often.
I am a hunter. I own a couple of hunting rifles. However, I do not need/want an assault rifle for hunting game. Assault rifles were developed for one purpose: kill people! No civilian has a need for an assault rifle. The NRA is wrong in it's building fear that people's guns are going to be taken away. The NRA needs a reality check. People who have no business owning an assault rifle are killing people with same. Ban ordinary citizens ownership of weapons of mass destruction, NOW! The Orlando murder bought those weapons in recent days. If he could not have purchased same, maybe, just maybe a huge number of our brothers and sisters would not be dead, injured, and their friends and families would not be suffering such horrible pain.

The NRA needs no reality check my friend, their one focus is getting as much money as possible for those they represent. It is the twats that belive them that need a reality check.

[Microcosm]

I'm just waiting to see what Trump will say about this. It's terrible what happened though.

He said he "predicted" it. LOL.

Apparently it makes him a great person to predict that there would be an Islamic terrorist attack in America in the future.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lunn3ziiFU1qfjd5jo1_250.gif

He also mentioned again the Muslim ban.

[rioo]

Gun control and transportation control so no one can bring rifle gun outside. It really sick if you can hide many grenades or rifle in your truck back . see?

It's better if we look back in middle ages when people only have sword and knife to slash anything and they will not allowed bring it go into club.

How do you know what Islam promotes? Where I am from all the muslims I have met are tolerent and friendly and inclusive! The majority of christians in the USA oppress people, they oppress the gays, the transexual, the muslims and the blacks. Does that suggest that christianity promotes violent action? Ever herd of the crusades?

Yeah and there are many Islamic scholars that say ISIS don't. The reality is all these religions are thousands of years old and have different texts that support different thing. Religion can be either used to promote peace or violence.


Again, explain why there has been no mass shooting in the UK in 6 years. 6 years ago a terrorist did get a gun but I'm sure you can agree it is a lot less frequent. I can't even imagine the USA going a year without a mass shooting. How many schools must be shot up before they take the guns away?!

maybe it's kind like european government learn from middle ages and US government learn from cowboys era, different approach.

[Bull]

The NRA needs no reality check my friend, their one focus is getting as much money as possible for those they represent. It is the twats that belive them that need a reality check.

True! And the NRA has become the gun manufactures puppet organization. That was not true years ago when the NRA sought to educate people on gun safety according to my grandfather who is a former NRA member. He left when they were taken over by the radical right opposing any and all controls on gun ownership.

[mattsmith48]

He said he "predicted" it. LOL.

Apparently it makes him a great person to predict that there would be an Islamic terrorist attack in America in the future.

image (http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lunn3ziiFU1qfjd5jo1_250.gif)

He also mentioned again the Muslim ban.

he said the 3 worst word you can say after a terrorist attack ''Appreciate the congrats''. he found something worst to say than ''thoughts and prayers'', after this how can someone can still plan on voting for him?

[sqishy]

TheFlapjack (and for everyone in general)

I'm back because this is taking a different route than the 'usual' debate on guns and such.

Just because ISIL declared responsibility for this, does not mean that they did it.

All they need is someone to say something sounding like it is Islamic, or having some interest in their ideology, and if they attempt/succeed at an attack, they can claim responsiblity.

The problem is that most of us then jump to thinking that ISIL did it just because they said so, and we're back to the problematic idea that ISIL happens to be the one and only active organisation in the past decade that is responsible for most terrorism events you hear about. It is not as simple as that!

I doubt that ISIL sent the perpetrator orders - even if they did, my point still holds. There is no one convenient enemy to assume all of this is coming from.

[Uniquemind]

TheFlapjack (and for everyone in general)

I'm back because this is taking a different route than the 'usual' debate on guns and such.

Just because ISIL declared responsibility for this, does not mean that they did it.

All they need is someone to say something sounding like it is Islamic, or having some interest in their ideology, and if they attempt/succeed at an attack, they can claim responsiblity.

The problem is that most of us then jump to thinking that ISIL did it just because they said so, and we're back to the problematic idea that ISIL happens to be the one and only active organisation in the past decade that is responsible for most terrorism events you hear about. It is not as simple as that!

I doubt that ISIL sent the perpetrator orders - even if they did, my point still holds. There is no one convenient enemy to assume all of this is coming from.

Yes to defeat them we need to understand how they work.

That's the challenge they are a "dark way of thinking" and they've marketed themselves well on social media partly probably responsible for many conspiracy videos on youtube.

They are literally the religious equivalent of "The Dark Knight's" "Joker".

[Vlerchan]

Look, we’re led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he’s got something else in mind. And the something else in mind—you know, people can’t believe it. People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can’t even mention the words “radical Islamic terrorism.” There’s something going on. It’s inconceivable. There’s something going on.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/trumps-implication-obama-was-involved-in-the-orlando-shooting/486770/

[phuckphace]

Look, we’re led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he’s got something else in mind. And the something else in mind—you know, people can’t believe it. People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can’t even mention the words “radical Islamic terrorism.” There’s something going on. It’s inconceivable. There’s something going on.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/trumps-implication-obama-was-involved-in-the-orlando-shooting/486770/

the ABSOLUTE MADMAN

[sqishy]

Yes to defeat them we need to understand how they work.

That's the challenge they are a "dark way of thinking" and they've marketed themselves well on social media partly probably responsible for many conspiracy videos on youtube.

They are literally the religious equivalent of "The Dark Knight's" "Joker".

In the sense of the target range being stirred into weakness from within through escalation, perhaps.


Look, we’re led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he’s got something else in mind. And the something else in mind—you know, people can’t believe it. People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can’t even mention the words “radical Islamic terrorism.” There’s something going on. It’s inconceivable. There’s something going on.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/trumps-implication-obama-was-involved-in-the-orlando-shooting/486770/

It is possible.
The inconsistency peppered across Trump's campaign is not redeeming anything though. His reaction to November 13 had none of this.


the ABSOLUTE MADMAN

Which means?

[Professional Russian]

This is sickening! How many more innocent people must be gunned down before there is any real gun control?!

seriously? you're like CNN. let's make this about gun control instead of the terrorism it was. this incident shows we need more guns becausr the terrorists are bringing the fight here. fuck that gun control.

[Bull]

seriously? you're like CNN. let's make this about gun control instead of the terrorism it was. this incident shows we need more guns becausr the terrorists are bringing the fight here. fuck that gun control.

You are entitled to your opinion, even if it is as fucked up as it can be! NO CITIZEN HAS A LEGIMATE NEED TO OWN WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! THE SALE OF ASSAULT WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION MUST BE OUTLAWED!
In spite of the lies Trump tells repeatedly

[Professional Russian]

You are entitled to your opinion, even if it is as fucked up as it can be! NO CITIZEN HAS A LEGIMATE NEED TO OWN WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! THE SALE OF ASSAULT WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION MUST BE OUTLAWED!
In spite of the lies Trump tells repeatedly

weapons of mass destructions are outlawed as well as assault weapons. anything over 50 caliber, with the exception of shot guns, automatic weapons, explosive devices, and aows(any other weapons) youre using a terrorist attach to further the liberal agenda of disarming the American people and taking away a constitutional right. see you can scream and shout all you want. whine and cry about guns being evil and only killing but you look like a total dumbass doing it. before you whine and cry about horrible guns that murder people do your NFA homework and look at everyone who hunts, collects, enjoys, and defend them selves with guns...oh just to be a dick. Hilary clinton, who wants to ban guns, is surrounded by guys with guns. if you're gonna disarm me disarm them too and make the military throw flowers at tsrrorists

[Stronk Serb]

How do you know what Islam promotes? Where I am from all the muslims I have met are tolerent and friendly and inclusive! The majority of christians in the USA oppress people, they oppress the gays, the transexual, the muslims and the blacks. Does that suggest that christianity promotes violent action? Ever herd of the crusades?

Yeah and there are many Islamic scholars that say ISIS don't. The reality is all these religions are thousands of years old and have different texts that support different thing. Religion can be either used to promote peace or violence.


Again, explain why there has been no mass shooting in the UK in 6 years. 6 years ago a terrorist did get a gun but I'm sure you can agree it is a lot less frequent. I can't even imagine the USA going a year without a mass shooting. How many schools must be shot up before they take the guns away?!

Have you heard of the Ottoman genocides in Anatoliya? The Devshirme, or "blood tax"? That's when the Ottomans would go through the Balkans, talking little boys and ship them to Cinstantinople to become islamized killing machines, usually killing their own people, in the name of the Sultan who claims is the lord over all Muslims. What about the aftermath of the First Serbian Uprising? We were sold as slaves en masse, hell, even food was more expensive than a Serb slave. Also, did you know that Muslims were also pretty tolerant of slavery. The Barbary Pirates plundered the coasts of Spain and took slaves among other things. What about forced conversions to Islam the Ottomans emposed on us? Conversions that divide our people uo to this day? You can say Islam has ruined the Balkans. The 'religion of peace' has expanded so agressivelly that it is rivaled by Nazi Germany. Not to mention that Muslim countries of old, when it was purest, supported taxing of religious minorities just for their religion, it was called the Jizya tax. I live these double standards. Both religions have more than enough blood on their hands.

[Vlerchan]

What about forced conversions to Islam the Ottomans emposed on us?
Source please.

[Drewboyy]

Never said that. Just like islam, different people take different messages from their religion.

Or shoot up abortion clinics. 60 years ago they were lynching black people. Also, it is not okay to refuse to sell a cake to a gay guy.

This just shows how little you know about the topic. Look at Algeria and half of Africa. For the record there is also white muslims, hispanic muslims and albino muslims.

\

What do you mean you never said Christians oppress people- I'm pretty sure you did, look back to like the 3rd page.

And we are talking about USA, no? There are barely any non-Arabic Muslims over here. Albino isn't really a race

Regardless or not if it is okay to not make a cake for gay guy, what's wrong with a private business refusing to serve someone they don't like? It's far from oppressing or decapitating someone because they don't like their lifestyle.

[Hideous]

Orlando shooter reportedly scouted Disney Springs as potential target

http://media2.fdncms.com/orlando/imager/u/blog/2499905/orlando-5.jpg?cb=1465837358

The shooter responsible for the mass shooting that killed 49 people at an Orlando gay nightclub reportedly scouted Walt Disney World's Disney Springs as a potential target.

A federal law enforcement source told People.com on Sunday that the shooter, Omar Mateen, and his wife had been in Orlando last April "scouting Downtown Disney and Pulse [nightclub] for attacks."

Last year Downtown Disney, which is a popular off-theme park property, was renamed Disney Springs.

According to reports from the FBI, Mateen called 911 before entering the gay Orlando nightclub, Pulse, and pledged his allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS.

Earlier today, President Obama said there is no evidence the Orlando shooter was part of larger plot or directed by ISIS.

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2016/06/13/orlando-shooter-reportedly-scouted-disney-springs-as-potential-target

[Just JT]

The police are not even done their investigation, and were like all over this about gun control?

Why can't we simply acknowledge somethings Terrible was done by a terrible person, making no sense.

Can't we just let those people and their family grieve in peace before we look at who or what to blame as the root cause when we don't even know all the details yet?

[Flapjack]

What do you mean you never said Christians oppress people- I'm pretty sure you did, look back to like the 3rd page.

Yes christians oppress people, but it is not christianity, it is individuals using their religion to justify hatred and oppression.

seriously? you're like CNN. let's make this about gun control instead of the terrorism it was. this incident shows we need more guns becausr the terrorists are bringing the fight here. fuck that gun control.
read this response I gave to others.

how the fuck did they manage that, isn't terrorism illegal

but sure let's tinker with some laws and they'll just quit blowing stuff up amirite. with illegal munitions.
There will always be bad people out there that want to do bad thing, the USA just makes it super easy for them.

You also are only thinking about terrorists, not the accidental shootings or arguments turning into shootings.

Illegal guns will be a problem for a while in the USA so gangs can still get guns but the average guy that has a break down and decides to visit a school with an assult weapon won't happen as much.

Also look at data from brazil
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/Y0uk6i1iVAVP5gBE3FCx_srBNoHv3EybJI-khYXnI15ADMqiw0OpY-kYoWqWO4i0jKP9LtmUqVG9ojToexBAsZD5r2oA9XUbIe70iAIK6Xb0p4jD_mdquqpaThe fact that gun control will not wipe out all gun violence is not a reason to not have any progress.
You know, to me you seem to ignore the fact that having full gun control doesn't take away the problems. Let's first look at Paris:

France has gun control, they had 2 shootings in 1 year.

.
2 shootings is way too many I agree! But they have not had 64 school shootings in 2015. They did not have 372 mass shootings in 2015. (For those that are bad at maths, this makes the average more than once a day.)

Ooooo I have more facts for you
http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/134DB/production/_85876097_homicides_guns_624_v3.png



Here in Belgium, multiple weapons have been found in apparments that were housed by extremists. Do we have gun control? Of course we do.



Thank god they found the guns. Just because some terrorists can get guns is not a reason to endanger the country any further!


I still think having unarmed police in the UK is extremely stupid, incase some guy starts shooting at people, how do they stop him? Maybe they'll ask him politely to stop shooting that might help.
There is armed police buddy that come if there is a shooting, it just isn't justified to arm every police officer when there is so little gun violence.

There are bad eggs in every police force and whilst the police in Europe are a lot better trained than the police in the USA so there is less bad eggs, at least the British bad eggs can only punch and taze you. (For the record not all UK police carry tazers.) In the USA bad eggs love shooting people, it happens far too often.
I am a hunter. I own a couple of hunting rifles. However, I do not need/want an assault rifle for hunting game. Assault rifles were developed for one purpose: kill people! No civilian has a need for an assault rifle. The NRA is wrong in it's building fear that people's guns are going to be taken away. The NRA needs a reality check. People who have no business owning an assault rifle are killing people with same. Ban ordinary citizens ownership of weapons of mass destruction, NOW! The Orlando murder bought those weapons in recent days. If he could not have purchased same, maybe, just maybe a huge number of our brothers and sisters would not be dead, injured, and their friends and families would not be suffering such horrible pain.

The NRA needs no reality check my friend, their one focus is getting as much money as possible for those they represent. It is the twats that belive them that need a reality check.

[DriveAlive]

I prefer my police to stop shootings instead of come running after the fact.

[Stronk Serb]

Source please.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

Look in the "Islam" section. 500,000 to one million boys estimated were snatched and trained to be killers.

[Vlerchan]

Look in the "Islam" section. 500,000 to one million boys estimated were snatched and trained to be killers.
I had presumed the second reference to forced conversions was distinct from the first reference made to the 'blood tax' (devşirme).

Whilst I'm sure this, and the structure of the tax system, affected conversions, was there any other systematic effort to bring about Islamification of the Balkans regions? The understanding I have, is where it occurred, it was gradual, broadly unforced, and over the course of a number of centuries.

[Stronk Serb]

I had presumed the second reference to forced conversions was distinct from the first reference made to the 'blood tax' (devşirme).

Whilst I'm sure this, and the structure of the tax system, affected conversions, was there any other systematic effort to bring about Islamification of the Balkans regions? The understanding I have, is where it occurred, it was gradual, broadly unforced, and over the course of a number of centuries.

I meant the blood tax. Cities were emptied of locals to make room for the Turks and local converts. For example, Greece after getting all land it could from the Ottomans, engaged in population exchange where Turks would be changed for Greeks from Anatolia, a good example of this is Thessaloniki. There were cases of families converting for safety, I am actually related to some people in Bosnia, part of our Montenegrin tribe fled to Bosnia and converted after a blood feud with another tribe, it all starts by offending someone's mother. In the nineteenth century, I think calling someone a motherfucker or offending someone's mother in any way was outlawed because it lead to duels which lead to bloody feuds. Also it happened to evade violence by Ottoman troops. Some men did it to protect their women from agas, the Turkish version of a knight. Others did it for financial gain or political power. Last week we learned that during the First Serbian Uprising, the Ottoman Sheikh Ul-Islam (Sort of like a court chaplain) called for a Jihad against us for rebelling. It was of local character only because the Ottomans were generally hated in the Muslim world at that (or all the) time.

[Judean Zealot]

I cannot help but be struck by our liberal posters' dogmatic defence of Islam, when it is crystal clear that political Islam is just about as diametrically opposed to liberalism as is possible.

[Microcosm]

I cannot help but be struck by our liberal posters' dogmatic defence of Islam, when it is crystal clear that political Islam is just about as diametrically opposed to liberalism as is possible.

What do you mean by "political Islam"?

[StoppingTom]

A bit of an update: The shooter's ex-wife and former classmate say he was gay himself, the latter claiming he was asked out on a date by the shooter. This is corroborated by frequent attendants at Pulse, who say he was a regular there.

Perhaps, this was a self-hating gay man who snapped under the weight of being raised Traditionally Muslim?

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/

[Judean Zealot]

What do you mean by "political Islam"?

The social and political aspects of Islam. Islam is a wonderful religion for the individual, but shows a remarkable tendency towards fanaticism when fused with civil or military authority.

[Stronk Serb]

I cannot help but be struck by our liberal posters' dogmatic defence of Islam, when it is crystal clear that political Islam is just about as diametrically opposed to liberalism as is possible.

This. Most people don't get that in the Middle East, Islam entails not just spiritual system, it is a whole political, social and economic system with bits of spirituality.

[Judean Zealot]

This. Most people don't get that in the Middle East, Islam entails not just spiritual system, it is a whole political, social and economic system with bits of spirituality.

I should point out here that this doesn't particularly concern me, as a more conservative individual - but it should make our liberals dizzy with rage. After all, the climate in those countries is so adverse to liberalism that they wouldn't even be able to repeal sodomy laws, forget about the academic distinction between civil-union and marriage or wedding cake "discrimination".

[Vlerchan]

I cannot help but be struck by our liberal posters' dogmatic defence of Islam, when it is crystal clear that political Islam is just about as diametrically opposed to liberalism as is possible.
It's possible to find political Islam disgusting and, at the same time, view the blanket condemnation of an entire religious group - and their religion - unsettling.

It's also probably geostrategically untenable. This sort of rhetoric plays into ISIL's hands - furthering the clash-of-civilisations narrative, and also hurts relations with Muslim-majority states that will play a central role in any counter-terrorism efforts.

---

Has anyone also read Trump's speech (https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-addresses-terrorism-immigration-and-national-security) yesterday? It's both fascinating as a piece of political communication, and disturbing for the policy implications.

Does anyone want to guess what "suspend[ing] immigration from areas of the world when there is a proven history of terrorism against the United States, Europe or our allies" will actually entail?

Because this eliminates multiple allies (inc. the Irish) - or at least those that the US is heading towards warmer relations with.

His foreign policy plan (all seven lines of it in the speech) is also notably shambolic.

[Judean Zealot]

Does anyone want to guess what "suspend[ing] immigration from areas of the world when there is a proven history of terrorism against the United States, Europe or our allies" will actually entail?

Because this eliminates multiple allies (inc. the Irish) - or at least those that the US is heading towards warmer relations with.

The Israelis would be out as well for when we blew the British out. :P

But yeah, that speech was awful.

[Leprous]

I cannot help but be struck by our liberal posters' dogmatic defence of Islam, when it is crystal clear that political Islam is just about as diametrically opposed to liberalism as is possible.

I don't see how suddenly bashing an entire culuture/religion would help in a situation like this either. That is if this is reffering to me (and perhaps others aswell) which I assume it is.

Politcly though they have a problem. It's true, but I just don't agree with all the bashing on the Muslims right now.

[Flapjack]

A bit of an update: The shooter's ex-wife and former classmate say he was gay himself, the latter claiming he was asked out on a date by the shooter. This is corroborated by frequent attendants at Pulse, who say he was a regular there.

Perhaps, this was a self-hating gay man who snapped under the weight of being raised Traditionally Muslim?

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/
Yeah apparently he traveled to the gay club a lot! From my experience a lot of the homophobes are themselves gay!

Also interestingly it does seem he was not an ISIS soilder, he has been saying he supports a range of different terrorist groups, many of which are at war with eachother. Afterall, I can pledge my allegence to Taylor Swift, don't mean she accepts meXD

[Leprous]

Yeah apparently he traveled to the gay club a lot! From my experience a lot of the homophobes are themselves gay!

Also interestingly it does seem he was not an ISIS soilder, he has been saying he supports a range of different terrorist groups, many of which are at war with eachother. Afterall, I can pledge my allegence to Taylor Swift, don't mean she accepts meXD

I don't see how a gay man can hate people for being gay because then he would hate himself aswell. I feel like something is not right here when I listen to all the current stories.

If he was part of a terrorist group it would seem weird to me concidering the fact he was gay.

[Stronk Serb]

I should point out here that this doesn't particularly concern me, as a more conservative individual - but it should make our liberals dizzy with rage. After all, the climate in those countries is so adverse to liberalism that they wouldn't even be able to repeal sodomy laws, forget about the academic distinction between civil-union and marriage or wedding cake "discrimination".

Neither does it concern me if the Middle East wants to govern itself that way, but it's highly hypocritical that the liberals cry about wedding cake "discrimination" but don't care about basic human rights abuses in the Middle East, gays being thrown off buildings, institutional prosecution of infidels etc. The difference between Christianity and Islam is that the first left the Middle Ages, while the other is slowly reverting to it in style of it's Christian counterpart.

[Jinglebottom]

I don't see how a gay man can hate people for being gay because then he would hate himself aswell. I feel like something is not right here when I listen to all the current stories.

If he was part of a terrorist group it would seem weird to me concidering the fact he was gay.
Some of them are too uncomfortable with their own homosexuality to accept it, and so to "prove" to others that he's not gay but 1000% straight, he starts hating/treating them like shit. It's probably more common than we think.

[Vlerchan]

Neither does it concern me if the Middle East wants to govern itself that way, but it's highly hypocritical that the liberals cry about wedding cake "discrimination" but don't care about basic human rights abuses in the Middle East, gays being thrown off buildings, institutional prosecution of infidels etc. The difference between Christianity and Islam is that the first left the Middle Ages, while the other is slowly reverting to it in style of it's Christian counterpart.
Since when have Liberals not cared about all of this.

---

I also think we could argue that the British should be barred from the US - the UVF are representative right?

[Bull]

weapons of mass destructions are outlawed as well as assault weapons. anything over 50 caliber, with the exception of shot guns, automatic weapons, explosive devices, and aows(any other weapons) youre using a terrorist attach to further the liberal agenda of disarming the American people and taking away a constitutional right. see you can scream and shout all you want. whine and cry about guns being evil and only killing but you look like a total dumbass doing it. before you whine and cry about horrible guns that murder people do your NFA homework and look at everyone who hunts, collects, enjoys, and defend them selves with guns...oh just to be a dick. Hilary clinton, who wants to ban guns, is surrounded by guys with guns. if you're gonna disarm me disarm them too and make the military throw flowers at tsrrorists

First, you need to get your facts straight. Gun laws vary by state. Do some research and you will discover that Florida has very liberal gun laws. There it is possible to buy guns, any type, with no background check.
Second, you totally misconstrued my post. I am a hunter. I own guns. I am not saying guns should be outlawed. I am saying that assault type guns and amo should be banned. There is no reason a non military/law enforcement individual needs an assault weapon.
Third, I did not, I do not, call for disarming anyone. Banning assault weapons and amo does not trample on the Second Amendment.

[Professional Russian]

First, you need to get your facts straight. Gun laws vary by state. Do some research and you will discover that Florida has very liberal gun laws. There it is possible to buy guns, any type, with no background check.
Second, you totally misconstrued my post. I am a hunter. I own guns. I am not saying guns should be outlawed. I am saying that assault type guns and amo should be banned. There is no reason a non military/law enforcement individual needs an assault weapon.
Third, I did not, I do not, call for disarming anyone. Banning assault weapons and amo does not trample on the Second Amendment.
i did my homework. I. go by federal laws because of PAs
rather lax gun laws. I was going by my home state in that post so calm your tits. second off what in the fuck is assualt ammo? and yes banning your so called "assault weapons" does infringe on that right. you know it does mention the security of a free state...also known as fighting back at a tyrannical government. you think a bunch of rednecks with bolt action rifles is gonna stand a chance against a government with fully automatic weapons? fuck no....not that most of the military will fight for the government in that case but yeah you get it.

[Vlerchan]

you think a bunch of rednecks with bolt action rifles is gonna stand a chance against a government with fully automatic weapons?
If this is the basis to your argument, then we should really be allowing citizens to posses light-machine guns, grenade launchers, and anti-tank missile launchers.

---

The Supreme Court has also refused to deal with lower courts upholding of bands on automatic weapons, so according to the institution that the founding father designed to interpret the law, banning automatic weapons probably isn't unconstitutional.

[DriveAlive]

What really bothers me is that you would think a peaceful religion like Islam would have a public outcry around the Muslim world in condemnation of these actions. Yet, where are the Muslim leaders condemning these attacks? Where are the calls for peace and love? As always, the Muslim community does nothing to condemn acts of Islamic terror.

[Vlerchan]

Yet, where are the Muslim leaders condemning these attacks? Where are the calls for peace and love? As always, the Muslim community does nothing to condemn acts of Islamic terror.
'We are sickened and heartbroken': Muslim leaders condemn Orlando gay club attack and express support for LGBT community

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3638091/We-sickened-heartbroken-Muslim-leaders-condemn-Orlando-gay-club-attack-express-support-LGBT-community.html

Oh, and here (https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=american+muslim+leaders+condemn+attacks&tbm=nws).

[Professional Russian]

If this is the basis to your argument, then we should really be allowing citizens to posses light-machine guns, grenade launchers, and anti-tank missile launchers.

---

The Supreme Court has also refused to deal with lower courts upholding of bands on automatic weapons, so according to the institution that the founding father designed to interpret the law, banning automatic weapons probably isn't unconstitutional.

thatwo not my whole basis. automatic weapons have already been banned under NFA. look it up

[DriveAlive]

'We are sickened and heartbroken': Muslim leaders condemn Orlando gay club attack and express support for LGBT community

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3638091/We-sickened-heartbroken-Muslim-leaders-condemn-Orlando-gay-club-attack-express-support-LGBT-community.html

Oh, and here (https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=american+muslim+leaders+condemn+attacks&tbm=nws).
A very small article in Endland is not equivalent to being on the news in America or in the streets. There should be an active Muslim community here that condemns attacks, is a vocal opponent to terrorism, and helps the police uncover terrorist activities.

[Vlerchan]

thatwo not my whole basis.
Do you agree, or disagree, with allowing people to possess the range of arms I listed (let's also add automatic weapons to that).

automatic weapons have already been banned under NFA. look it up
It seems I'm getting the gun-lingo incorrect.

I mean assault-type weapons, such as the one used in the Orlando shooting.

A very small article in Endland is not equivalent to being on the news in America or in the streets.
The second link is to a google search, which lists dozens upon dozens of articles.

The article from England is also reporting on events in the US, those events being the condemnation of the shooting by American Muslim leaders. I choose the Daily Mail because it's horrifically conservative on the issue of Islam.

---

Edit., I will add that even if major US news channels were failing to report on this (they're not though), that's in no way the fault of the Muslim community.

There should be an active Muslim community here that condemns attacks.
Please read the material I link to. That's what actually happened.

[...] is a vocal opponent to terrorism [...]
That, too.

[...] and helps the police uncover terrorist activities.
Do you have a reason to believe that Muslims-as-as-a-community are actively seeking to be unhelpful?

[Leprous]

What really bothers me is that you would think a peaceful religion like Islam would have a public outcry around the Muslim world in condemnation of these actions. Yet, where are the Muslim leaders condemning these attacks? Where are the calls for peace and love? As always, the Muslim community does nothing to condemn acts of Islamic terror.

Actually they hate the people who do these things. Not sure if you have heard this before but the Muslim community (the actual Muslims, the good ones) frown upon these terrorists just as much as we do.

Speaking of peace and love as I said before some Catholic groups aren't afraid of homophobic activities either I don't see any peace and love there.

"As always"

Not sure if you have heard this before but the Muslim community have already stated how much they hate these terrorists attacks like for example, Brussels and Paris. They have also stated they don't see these terrorists as Muslims at all.

[Professional Russian]

Do you agree, or disagree, with allowing people to possess the range of arms I listed (let's also add automatic weapons to that).


It seems I'm getting the gun-lingo incorrect.

I mean assault-type weapons, such as the one used in the Orlando shooting.



yes individuals should have the right to own anyour weapon they want,not including automatic weapons, destructive devices, and AOWS, provided they pass a necessary background check and mental healthy check, aren't on any government watch lists, is a citizen of the US for more than 5 years. must be over the age of 18 for rifles, 21 for handguns, and yeah I think that's about it. i see no problems there.

[sqishy]

This repetitive judgement of the Muslim community is tiring and annoying.

[Vlerchan]

yes individuals should have the right to own anyour weapon they want,not including automatic weapons, destructive devices, and AOWS, provided they pass a necessary background check and mental healthy check, aren't on any government watch lists, is a citizen of the US for more than 5 years. must be over the age of 18 for rifles, 21 for handguns, and yeah I think that's about it. i see no problems there.
The bolding is mind.

I'm wondering why they shouldn't be allowed to possess these weapons, in particular, when otherwise they are incapable of matching the capabilities of the US government.

[Professional Russian]

The bolding is mind.

I'm wondering why they shouldn't be allowed to possess these weapons, in particular, when otherwise they are incapable of matching the capabilities of the US government.

because even though they're 'banned' you can still get them, legally and illegally, through the government for very very very high price provided you have correct, class 3 FFL, licenseing and a massive pocket book. so yeah in theory you can own any weapon in, and out, of production if you can find it it's extremely hard and extremely expensive

[Vlerchan]

because even though they're 'banned' you can still get them, legally and illegally, through the government for very very very high price provided you have correct, class 3 FFL, licenseing and a massive pocket book. so yeah in theory you can own any weapon in, and out, of production if you can find it it's extremely hard and extremely expensive
Do you feel that the severe restrictions on access to automatic weapons* - and I am aware that these need to have been manufacturer before some time in the 80s, is justified? If so, why?

---

* Can you purchase grenade launchers, and anti-tank missile launchers, with a class 3 FFL?

[Professional Russian]

Do you feel that the severe restrictions on access to automatic weapons* - and I am aware that these need to have been manufacturer before some time in the 80s, is justified? If so, why?

---

* Can you purchase grenade launchers, and anti-tank missile launchers, with a class 3 FFL?

yes and yes.why to the first? because a fully automatic M4 is a totally different animal than the mass murdering, child slaughtering, women beating AR15. it's spitting out around 600 rounds per minute compared to the AR15 that I don't care how fast your finger is you're not getting that many out. and its much more dangerous if you loose control of it.

[Flapjack]

I don't see how a gay man can hate people for being gay because then he would hate himself aswell. I feel like something is not right here when I listen to all the current stories.

If he was part of a terrorist group it would seem weird to me concidering the fact he was gay.
wZGYdBSmVUo

[Vlerchan]

because a fully automatic M4 is a totally different animal than the mass murdering, child slaughtering, women beating AR15. it's spitting out around 600 rounds per minute compared to the AR15 that I don't care how fast your finger is you're not getting that many out.
First point to make is that the AR15 has been used to both commit mass-murder and slaughter children.

Second point to make is that earlier the current regulations surrounding the AR15 seemed to be defended on the grounds that it was required in case government became tyrannical. But - conditional on someone making an argument that it poses potential for significant danger - you seem to be accepting of stepping up regulation on certain arms-types, eschewing the argument made earlier.

The fact that the M4 can be restricted in lieu of public safety concerns, despite it being a capable G-man killer, would seem to negate any power the earlier argument might have held.

[Professional Russian]

First point to make is that the AR15 has been used to both commit mass-murder and slaughter children.

Second point to make is that earlier the current regulations surrounding the AR15 seemed to be defended on the grounds that it was required in case government became tyrannical. But - conditional on someone making an argument that it poses potential for significant danger - you seem to be accepting of stepping up regulation on certain arms-types, eschewing the argument made earlier.

The fact that the M4 can be restricted in lieu of public safety concerns, despite it being a capable G-man killer, would seem to negate any power the earlier argument might have held.

the AR 15 platform is also an acceptable hunting rifle in most states so keep that in mind. I could easily put a 33rd magazine in a glock 17 and kill just as many people. dont see people bitching about that. could get a couple 11 Rd mags for a 1911 do the same thinf. dont see people bitching about the M1A/M14 platform when it's an even bigger badder gun than an AR. I got a pump action 30-06 that I can slap a 10 Rd mag into and kill 10 people pretty damn fast. but yet the AR is singled out for a reason unknown to me other than people think it's a big bad scary gun. in my mind it's all or nothing....ofcourse im on the nothing side but yeah

[Vlerchan]

but yet the AR is singled out for a reason unknown to me other than people think it's a big bad scary gun.
It's popular and frequently used in the horrific incidents that make international news, such as the Orlando shooting. I imagine there would be the same argument made about the other weapons highlighted, if they were used in shootings as frequently.

I figure the entire class of such weapons (or ammunition, modifications) should be banned, anyways.

[Professional Russian]

It's popular and frequently used in the horrific incidents that make international news, such as the Orlando shooting. I imagine there would be the same argument made about the other weapons highlighted, if they were used in shootings as frequently.

I figure the entire class of such weapons (or ammunition, modifications) should be banned, anyways.

glocks are usually the sidearm of choose for mass shooters. it was used in the sandy hook shootings, gang shootings all the time, I think columbine to but yet no one's after them. why?

[Vlerchan]

glocks are usually the sidearm of choose for mass shooters. it was used in the sandy hook shootings, gang shootings all the time, I think columbine to but yet no one's after them. why?
In the aftermath of these shootings, the emphasise is placed on the AR15 as the weapon causing the most carnage, and thus the immediate focus is placed on this weapon.

That, and the fact that AR15s have been used in all of the recent shootings as of late.

[DriveAlive]

We would actually be much safer if only fully automatic guns were allowed. Full auto guns are incredibly hard to control (that is why the military does not go full auto much) and they go through their ammo quickly. Therefore, if someone was going to go on a rampage, they would be less likely to make accurate shots and would run out of ammo much faster with a full auto gun.

[thatcountrykid]

I hate this this is being made out as an attack on gays and not an attack on Americans. The gay community fights for equality yet when incidents like this happen the entire country makes it out as an attack on one group of people. This is an attack on Americans. My countrymen and my neighbors. Not on gays. If you want equality quit creating division.

[DriveAlive]

I hate this this is being made out as an attack on gays and not an attack on Americans. The gay community fights for equality yet when incidents like this happen the entire country makes it out as an attack on one group of people. This is an attack on Americans. My countrymen and my neighbors. Not on gays. If you want equality quit creating division.

I think this is unfair. It was directly an attack on the gay community by a Muslim. However, an attack on any group for wanting to live free is an attack on America.

[Stronk Serb]

Since when have Liberals not cared about all of this.

---

I also think we could argue that the British should be barred from the US - the UVF are representative right?

We could also argue that the British are not forced to blindly follow a hateful ideology.

[Jameson9]

Do you have any evidence the shooter acquired his weapons and explosives arsenal legally?


The suspect was affiliated with ISIS ideology, and that organisation has just claimed the attack. So yes, it was jihadism and radical Islamic terrorism, not a simple hate-crime.


The man in Orlando did legally purchase the guns. He had valid permits and passed a test that is required by Florida State law when you are purchasing fire arms. (All of the proof of this came from the owner of the gun store where [Omar] bought the weapons.)

[Uniquemind]

There needs to be a law that progressively gets stricter and tighter on the sale of specific gun models that become an established weapon pattern of choice in this specific crime profile.


I attended a couple graduation parties this past weekend for friends and family and friends of friends and this topic was debated heavily with regards to Columbine, Sandy Hook, Orlando etc.

This was a large group mind you (28 of us I think?) mixed gender, mixed ages ranging from 14-28, and then add on some of our parents who also jumped into the debate, so it must've been closer to 46 people.

The side that won basically argued that there is more rational based fear of random citizen/resident/crazy shooters causing families and our social networks more pain and sorrow than the looming fear of a "tyrannical government" that might one day overtake "freedom" away.


In the context of everyday gun violence, you have to factor in the velocity of the bullets which might penetrate multiple walls and hurt a person 1400 feet away, or 3 blocks down the street.

The adults also pitched in a new angle that gun violence drives up healthcare economic costs, and it is harmful in the long run to home values.


So there's some big heavy weight topics to discuss here and I think it's time we also make a conscious effort to shy away from the mythology of a "tyrannical" government, when it does seem that in other more technological ways, the battle is lost in terms of the partnership of big business and government already data-mining everything....

EDIT STARTS HERE:
So for those who like to nitpick posts, I have to correct the forum discussion to say it WASN'T a AR-15, it was a "Sig Sauer" (might have misspelled) that was used, and it is advertised in a way that is easy to disassemble and reassemble so it can be hidden easily, and shoots more silently with less kickback from shots fired.

[Leprous]

The man in Orlando did legally purchase the guns. He had valid permits and passed a test that is required by Florida State law when you are purchasing fire arms. (All of the proof of this came from the owner of the gun store where [Omar] bought the weapons.)

I think that indicates that guns shouldn't be sold to the general public. I don't see why everyone needs to have a gun anyway, in my opinion it's stupid.

You don't need a gun to defend yourself if nobody has a gun to treathen you with in the first place.

[Professional Russian]

I think that indicates that guns shouldn't be sold to the general public. I don't see why everyone needs to have a gun anyway, in my opinion it's stupid.

You don't need a gun to defend yourself if nobody has a gun to treathen you with in the first place.

yes because banning guns is the solution to everything. because you know the illegal ones don't exist at all

[Uniquemind]

yes because banning guns is the solution to everything. because you know the illegal ones don't exist at all

But first thing's first.

You got to stem the flow of what were once legal guns, that turn into illegal ones.

The illegal gun problem would be step two of how to deal with any of that.

You could use cash incentives to turn them in, later by force especially since it's on the black market.

Here's another thing too, if you have a legally bought stockpile of weapons and you're irresponsible enough to have a 3rd party break-in and steal them only to be sold on the black market...where was your supposed safety to fight back with the said stockpile you had anyway?


The deadliest force is not the stockpile or having a gun or not, it's knowing ahead of time someone is entering an establishment with a gun, or your house aka: element of surprise.

[Judean Zealot]

So, the UK just saw a labour MP assassinated with a gun. Any comments?

[SethfromMI]

So, the UK just saw a labour MP assassinated with a gun. Any comments?

gasp. that's impossible. it is physically impossible to kill someone with a gun when their is a gun ban. while criminals obey the law better than anyone else. surely they would not use a gun to kill someone when they know they are not supposed to be killing people, let alone with a gun.

oh yea, people don't give a shit whether there is a gun ban or not. if they want to get a gun, they will and they will use it, ban or not. which is why it is stupid to assume if we ban guns here in America, ISIS will just sing with us around the campfire.

[Flapjack]

So, the UK just saw a labour MP assassinated with a gun. Any comments?
I never heard of her before today! They've found the man that did it so at least he can face justice.

gasp. that's impossible. it is physically impossible to kill someone with a gun when their is a gun ban. while criminals obey the law better than anyone else. surely they would not use a gun to kill someone when they know they are not supposed to be killing people, let alone with a gun.

oh yea, people don't give a shit whether there is a gun ban or not. if they want to get a gun, they will and they will use it, ban or not. which is why it is stupid to assume if we ban guns here in America, ISIS will just sing with us around the campfire.

Nobody claimed it was physically impossible, there has always been gun crime in the UK, just nothing compared to the USA.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/Y0uk6i1iVAVP5gBE3FCx_srBNoHv3EybJI-khYXnI15ADMqiw0OpY-kYoWqWO4i0jKP9LtmUqVG9ojToexBAsZD5r2oA9XUbIe70iAIK6Xb0p4jD_mdquqpa

[phuckphace]

So, the UK just saw a labour MP assassinated with a gun. Any comments?

at this point pulling this off in '16 UK with an actual IRL gun must require something like hacking into the Matrix-like Orwellian simulation they live in and bending spacetime to escape the robocops

[Flapjack]

at this point pulling this off in '16 UK with an actual IRL gun must require something like hacking into the Matrix-like Orwellian simulation they live in and bending spacetime to escape the robocops
yeah I am curious to find out how the assasin got the gun! It may have been a legal one that got stolen or a really old gun that has evaded police for so long? I know there was an SAS guy that kept a pistol from his service days but that's really rare.

[Vlerchan]

The gun was home-made.

From the sounds of it the killer was as nuts as the Orlando shooter. He had a tonne of Nazi paraphernalia in his home alongside manuals on creating home-made arms and bombs.

I imagine had gun laws in the UK been more liberal he might have been able to get a whole lot more ambitious.

[Flapjack]

The gun was home-made.

From the sounds of it the killer was as nuts as the Orlando shooter. He had a tonne of Nazi paraphernalia in his home alongside manuals on creating home-made arms and bombs.

I imagine had gun laws in the UK been more liberal he might have been able to get a whole lot more ambitious.
Can you provide a source for that? I don't doubt you but I have heard it was home made but can't find where it says so!

[Vlerchan]

Can you provide a source for that? I don't doubt you but I have heard it was home made but can't find where it says so!
Witnesses had reported seeing the attacker reload the gun between each shot. One said the gun was either antique or homemade.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-suspect-thomas-mair-bought-book-on-how-to-make-han/

His house contained a manual on the construction of a pipe-gun which I believe would fit the pattern of shooting described in that extract. It could of course turn to to be an older gun that was left over from before the ban was imposed but I figure the likelihood is slim.

If he'd a licence the British media establishment would have figured it out - we were aware of the Orlando shooters licence within a few hours.

[Flapjack]

Witnesses had reported seeing the attacker reload the gun between each shot. One said the gun was either antique or homemade.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-suspect-thomas-mair-bought-book-on-how-to-make-han/His house contained a manual on the construction of a pipe-gun which I believe would fit the pattern of shooting described in that extract. It could of course turn to to be an older gun that was left over from before the ban was imposed but I figure the likelihood is slim.

If he'd a licence the British media establishment would have figured it out - we were aware of the Orlando shooters licence within a few hours.
That's awesome thanks buddy!!:) Not awesome the shooting obviously but for telling me about it:)

[The Boom]

I still don't get it! Why the hell does the american nation have to be armed this way? Does all this simply come from the constitution? That thing about arming US citizens in case their government turns against them... Is that it? There's gotta be something else.

[DriveAlive]

For those Brits out there, I think Tom Rogan (a British conservative journalist) sums up pretty well why America is so strongly in favor of gun rights.

http://www.tomroganthinks.com/2012/12/newtown-and-second-amendment.html

[Flapjack]

I still don't get it! Why the hell does the american nation have to be armed this way? Does all this simply come from the constitution? That thing about arming US citizens in case their government turns against them... Is that it? There's gotta be something else.
Honestly I don't think anyone outside of the USA understands! A turkish man was murdered a while ago in the USA by a crazy man with a gun and when they went to the father for a comment he said he would never have let his son go to the USA if he knew how everyone has guns.