Building a perfect wall [NOT about Trump+related!]

[sqishy]

Here's one of the threads I have sort of promised to act on making, where I give an idea through an argument set step-by-step.

It is not fully 'streamlined' and is not the finished product as it were, but then most of what I do (and part of what I am) is 'subject to change'.

This idea is on what a wall essentially is, how to build a perfect one, and what it means for how the physical world works in some ways.

EDIT: The top part is the view in its essential form; the 'expanded edition' was here but I removed it, though I've saved it if anyone wants it.

Vlerchan Reise Left Now TheFlapjack


lliam this is as much simplifying I can do. It may still look long, but this time it's mostly spaces I've added to make it more readable.

________________


0: An entity is that for which an identity and/or description is associated with.

- - - - - - - -

1: All physical entities are either fundamental or non-fundamental.

Fundamental entities are those whose nature is not resultant from any set of other entities.

Non-fundamental entities are those whose nature is resultant from a certain set of other entities. These other entities can be called the 'base entities' of the former entities.

- - - - - - - -

2: All known physical entities are non-fundamental, the closest known entities to fundamental 'status' are at subatomic scale and 'lower', but some theories hold even these to be non-fundamental.

- - - - - - - -

3: A certain entity has its nature resultant from certain interactions between certain other entities. The set of all certain interactions from these entities, that result in the one certain entity we speak of now, can be called a 'set of stability' for that entity. All physical entities have their own unique set of stability.

- - - - - - - -

4: A particular entity will result from another certain entity, if the latter has interactions 'within' it, that are in the set of stability of the former.

Otherwise, that particular entity will not result from another entity.

- - - - - - - -

5: The set of stability of an entity is not 'black and white' - certain elements of this set better result in that entity, than others. What this means is that certain interactions result in this entity such that this entity is totally manifest, rather than other interactions that only partly/'fuzzily' result in this entity, 'making' it partly manifest.

The entity's set of stability can be considered to have its 'center' be for interactions which fully manifest the entity, and its 'edges' be for interactions which only partially manifest the entity.

This fuzziness is argued to be consequent to point zero, that entities are defined by certain perceptual qualities (perceptual here meaning all aspects of that which is experienced and held in memory) - the presence of these qualities is what matters, not the degree by which these qualities manifest. We highly approximate that which we identify and describe.

- - - - - - - -

6: Walls are entities constructed (either only though projecting identities at the world, or through that and also physical modification of the world) such as to partially/totally block certain other entities from crossing them.

- - - - - - - -

7: An entity crosses another certain entity, if some/all interactions within the latter, are present in the former's set of stability.

An entity partially crosses another entity if the above is true, for which the interactions are present at the edge of the former's set of stability.

An entity totally crosses another entity if the above is true, except that the interactions are in the center of the set of stability.

- - - - - - - -

8: An entity does not cross another entity, if all of interactions within the latter are not present in the former's set of stability. The former entity cannot exist in conjunction with the latter.

- - - - - - - -

9: Walls essentially operate by partially or totally preventing certain entities from crossing them, by descriptions in points 7 and 8.

- - - - - - - -

10: Essentially better walls are walls that are more efficient. A more efficient wall is that which blocks certain entities better, than other walls that block the same entities.

- - - - - - - -

11: Better walls have the trend of unintentionally blocking more kinds of other entities.

- - - - - - - -

12: For every non-fundamental entity, there is at least one other non-fundamental entity which shares the same base entity as it - for any one given entity, there is more than one possible entity that can result from it, given a range of interactions that can inhere in the former

- - - - - - - -

13: Points 12 and 11 are unified in arguing that a wall blocks a certain entity better and better, if it has a level of complexity greater and greater than it.

- - - - - - - -

14: Better walls operate at lower, more fundamental, levels of complexity, as more kinds of entities are blocked by them.

- - - - - - - -

15: The best possible wall would be a wall that operates at the fundamental scale of fundamental physical entities themselves, blocking all entities of greater complexity. This would be an essentially perfect wall.

The perfect wall would, for us, at least literally cut off regions of spacetime from each other, because spacetime itself has consensus in being the most fundamental physical entity known.

This wall would operate at a scale more fundamental than even black holes, as black holes do not permit transmission of entities 'in' spacetime 'one-way', and this perfect wall would not permit the entities of spacetime itself from interacting with each other. The substance of spacetime would be broken down.

Hope this makes sense.

[phuckphace]

if you build it, they won't come.

[sqishy]

if you build it, they won't come.

Trump ain't taking credit for my idea, at least.

You should fear for your life if he obtains the means anyway :D .

[dxcxdzv]

So, so so so, does a such wall exist at the "frontiers" of our Universe? :D

[Left Now]

Let us just say,does this wall exist?I believe it does.I believe something is preventing new things come into this universe and at the same time preventing the things which is inside get out.A type of stabilzer.

[Flapjack]

If they want to build a wall they have a right too, but Trump is racist and the mexicans won't pay for it! Not sure why you're worrying about the physics/chemistry though?:')

[sqishy]

So, so so so, does a such wall exist at the "frontiers" of our Universe? :D

If you mean 'far away' spatially and/or temporally, then it's possible. This presumes that the universe is bounded in the dimensions we know of, and that these bounds are far off.

What if the the universe is bounded right beside us, but in some 5th dimension? It would then put the previous consideration a bit like us being on a 2D universe that is a sheet, and we're wondering how far away the edge of the universe is. In this analogy, we are already on the edge.

My point is that the edges could be much more different than we think, and in how they are manifest too, if they are around.


I argue that they are, because usually when discussing what is 'beyond' the universe in terms of space and/or time, we go beyond the 3/4 dimensions we know of.

Meta-mathematically, two (of many possible) arguments can be said that the universe (for us) started off with either zero dimensions (our singularity and/or an infinitely curved dimensional space), or it started off with an infinite number of dimensions. 0D is easy to get, but infinite-D is quite different. It could even be that they are identical in some way, or maybe not.
I'm offering those points of thoughts for you.

A perfect wall may be limiting our perceived physical realm down to only 3 dimensions. A fourth one is limited too but in a special way that presents itself to us as temporal.

Of course, this can be relevant in what information is, thermodynamics, and so on.


Let us just say,does this wall exist?I believe it does.I believe something is preventing new things come into this universe and at the same time preventing the things which is inside get out.A type of stabilzer.

Perhaps - if so, it may be that dimensional limiting structure I just spoke of. This presupposes an infinite-dimensional 'starting point' of course.


If they want to build a wall they have a right too, but Trump is racist and the mexicans won't pay for it! Not sure why you're worrying about the physics/chemistry though?:')

I wasn't actually thinking about Trump/etc when doing this thread; this is intended to be completely separate.

[Left Now]

Paraxiom,

Which we call *Censored*

[sqishy]

Paraxiom,

Which we call *Censored*

Equating God with a perfect wall?

[Left Now]

Equating God with a perfect wall?

That is actually what is written about God is Quran:Stablizer,ultimate keeper of World from destruction,however an intelligent one.

[sqishy]

That is actually what is written about God is Quran:Stablizer,ultimate keeper of World from destruction,however an intelligent one.

The intelligence part is something I don't see as relevant here.

A dimensional-limiting wall doesn't need to be holding back anything - the only 'keeping from destruction' it could be doing is actively maintaining a certain dimensional environment for which certain more complex forms can arise: mass-energy, four fundamental interactions, etc (as we know them) in our case.

[Left Now]

The intelligence part is something I don't see as relevant here.

A dimensional-limiting wall doesn't need to be holding back anything - the only 'keeping from destruction' it could be doing is actively maintaining a certain dimensional environment for which certain more complex forms can arise: mass-energy, four fundamental interactions, etc (as we know them) in our case.

Well there are many fundamental things which we even do not know they exist yet,let's just put aside that studying them.

Besides,why intelligene part is irrelevant?

[sqishy]

Well there are many fundamental things which we even do not know they exist yet,let's just put aside that studying them.

Such as the structure of spacetime, yes.


Besides,why intelligene part is irrelevant?

I'm giving a descriptive account of how walls work, and how a perfect one would work too - not what it is that is responsible for any fundamentality to it.

That can be discussed but it is outside the scope of this thread's topic. I'm all for idea integration, but I also prefer setting each out 'in isolation' first.

[Left Now]

Such as the structure of spacetime, yes.



I'm giving a descriptive account of how walls work, and how a perfect one would work too - not what it is that is responsible for any fundamentality to it.

That can be discussed but it is outside the scope of this thread's topic. I'm all for idea integration, but I also prefer setting each out 'in isolation' first.

Well as I said I believe the wall exists,since as I said nothing is coming in and nothing is going out.

[sqishy]

Well as I said I believe the wall exists,since as I said nothing is coming in and nothing is going out.

That we know of.

What if the properties of fundamental particle-waves turns out to be a result of extra dimensions?

There are contending theoretical physics theories that say we live in more physical dimensions than 4.

[Left Now]

That we know of.

What if the properties of fundamental particle-waves turns out to be a result of extra dimensions?

There are contending theoretical physics theories that say we live in more physical dimensions than 4.

Who knows?Acctually they are hypothesises.I just know that is enough for me that this world is stable enough to live in,and I owe it to the fact that the main principle of every existence is one thing.The rest is up to philosophers,future physicist and others.I just suggest them not just to rely on experimental science when they are discussing Origins.Science is not meant to answer "How did it start?" and for answering such question,you must know how did it start.

[sqishy]

Who knows?Acctually they are hypothesises.I just know that is enough for me that this world is stable enough to live in,and I owe it to the fact that the main principle of every existence is one thing.The rest is up to philosophers,future physicist and others.I just suggest them not just to rely on experimental science when they are discussing Origins.Science is not meant to answer "How did it start?" and for answering such question,you must know how did it start.

Scientific theories always have some idea behind them - for theoretical physics, there is more thinking going on with it than the actual scientific method. I don't think we can actually know things 'out there' with certainty, but we use reasoning through arguments to do our best. Then the scientific method can be applied in a suitable way as to help us along.

I want to add also that my broad but specific definition of what walls are, applies to every non-fundamental physical entity. Walls don't just have to be flat panes of some substance. If anything, it's a definition which gives some aspect to how form manifests.

[Left Now]

Scientific theories always have some idea behind them - for theoretical physics, there is more thinking going on with it than the actual scientific method. I don't think we can actually know things 'out there' with certainty, but we use reasoning through arguments to do our best. Then the scientific method can be applied in a suitable way as to help us along.


Let us just say science is a more conservative thing than what we think.


I want to add also that my broad but specific definition of what walls are, applies to every non-fundamental physical entity. Walls don't just have to be flat panes of some substance. If anything, it's a definition which gives some aspect to how form manifests.]

I get.

[sqishy]

Let us just say science is a more conservative thing than what we think.

Some people who use it can be, but the method itself just does its thing.



I get.

I will make another thread discussing space, time, dimensions and their numbers and curvatures soon.

My idea here will show up there too.

[Ragle]

I find the idea of a wall ridiculous. However, it would be fun, knowing Trump locked behind such a thing. And the rest of the world parties all time and throws him now and then crackers over the wall.

[Left Now]

Some people who use it can be, but the method itself just does its thing.

I actually believe itself is also conservative.For example there are methodes in Biochemistry and Physiology that are not completely confirmed yet,but they are getting used to push Medicine forward,since they are working.But there were also previous methodes that were also working in the past but with advancement of fields like Molecular Chemistry,they have been outdated.

[sqishy]

I find the idea of a wall ridiculous. However, it would be fun, knowing Trump locked behind such a thing. And the rest of the world parties all time and throws him now and then crackers over the wall.

This is not about Trump; at this stage I'd lock him in a universe of his own literally if I had the chance.

[Left Now]

This is not about Trump; at this stage I'd lock him in a universe of his own literally if I had the chance.

What is all the fuss about Trump anyway?

[dxcxdzv]

The birth of the Universe and the "instant t<0.000,000,1s" is a pretty complicated topic.
Our actual space-time may just be the result of a sort of "stabilization" at the beginning of the Universe and becomes more and more "odd" to extreme scales.

It's still pretty hard for me to think differently than "single Universe" or "multiple universes". Like, if there are multiple universes and if so there is a "Great" quantum vacuum our Universe could easily be seen as a sort of bubble with characteristics only applicable to itself.


We really are in the realm of theory here, the Universe and its alleged edges always looked weird to me.

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/faq.htm#s1

Nice link about it.

EDIT:

"I will make another thread discussing space, time, dimensions and their numbers and curvatures soon."

Heeeeeh?! This means I'm completely off-topic here? D:

I actually believe itself is also conservative.For example there are methodes in Biochemistry and Physiology that are not completely confirmed yet,but they are getting used to push Medicine forward,since they are working.But there were also previous methodes that were also working in the past but with advancement of fields like Molecular Chemistry,they have been outdated.
Are you talking about Supramolecular Chemistry?

Science is study, notions like conservatism are really non-sense here. There are just things we study and theories we make.

[sqishy]

I actually believe itself is also conservative.For example there are methodes in Biochemistry and Physiology that are not completely confirmed yet,but they are getting used to push Medicine forward,since they are working.But there were also previous methodes that were also working in the past but with advancement of fields like Molecular Chemistry,they have been outdated.

That goes more with the idea of scientific paradigms, which is more on the holding of scientific theories and knowledge, not the scientific method itself.


What is all the fuss about Trump anyway?

At this point I can only guess that 'wall' is becoming synonymous with 'Trump'. Somewhat annoying at this stage.


The birth of the Universe and the "instant t<0.000,000,1s" is a pretty complicated topic.
Our actual space-time may just be the result of a sort of "stabilization" at the beginning of the Universe and becomes more and more "odd" to extreme scales.

Quantum gravity/string theory are good contenders here.



It's still pretty hard for me to think differently than "single Universe" or "multiple universes". Like, if there are multiple universes and if so there is a "Great" quantum vacuum our Universe could easily be seen as a sort of bubble with characteristics only applicable to itself.

At this point the meaning of 'universe' is being misused, because it's not really a universe anymore by definition; like a bigger version of the past view that the universe contained only our galaxy, and other galaxies being discovered then briefly by some called other universes.


We really are in the realm of theory here, the Universe and its alleged edges always looked weird to me.

If it can be experimented on within meaningfulness and reason, then it's within the scope of science, taking the scientific method.



https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/faq.htm#s1

Nice link about it.

I will look into it. Thanks.



EDIT:

"I will make another thread discussing space, time, dimensions and their numbers and curvatures soon."

Heeeeeh?! This means I'm completely off-topic here? D:


Not completely off-topic, more so in a sequel of this thread already.

[Left Now]

Paraxiom, Reise,

Do not get it wrong.Conservatism is actually a good thing in science,actually the main cause of letting it going any further,sometimes.That is just nor enough for ultimate explaination behind everything.

Trump is the wall?

[sqishy]

Paraxiom, Reise,

Do not get it wrong.Conservatism is actually a good thing in science,actually the main cause of letting it going any further,sometimes.

I didn't say that conservative tendencies in scientific theories, knowledge and their perception is a bad thing necessarily; it's useful most of the time even if a psychological tendency of ours.

I was making the distinction between scientific knowledge, scientific theories, and the scientific method. You're talking about the first two.


That is just nor enough for ultimate explaination behind everything.

Jumps do have to be made for good progress, yes. Einstein's spacetime and indeterminacy in quantum physics are examples. I expect more to happen with time.

I also want to say that science can go to delve into what physical dimensions are themselves, we were partly doing so already for 100 years with curved spacetime, and decades of constant verification of the theories behind it keep corroborating it.
It does not mean that it is right, it just means it's a good path to go taking we've not found it wrong yet, and we've learned a lot through the journey.


Trump is the wall?

I meant that there is a close association between them. Trump builds walls, so any walls I see talked about in ROTW must be about Trump. Basically that...

[CoolGuy108]

If they want to build a wall they have a right too, but Trump is racist and the mexicans won't pay for it! Not sure why you're worrying about the physics/chemistry though?:')

Racist? I dont think you know what that word means.

Illegal Immigrant is not a race
Mexican is not a race
Muslim is not a race

Try again

[sqishy]

racist? I dont think you know what that word means.

Illegal immigrant is not a race
mexican is not a race
muslim is not a race

try again

This thread is NOT about Donald Trump.

[CoolGuy108]

I....I never said it was. He brought it up kek.

But walls are a good idea.
We all have fences around our properties and locks on our doors. We protect our stuff inside our homes and the people we love with them.

We dont make walls/lock our doors to keep those we hate out, we do it to keep the ones we love safe.

Walls have been proven to work in countless different countries: Norway, Israel, Spain, Morocco, and others.

I see no reason to not build a wall

[sqishy]

I....I never said it was. He brought it up kek.

But walls are a good idea.
We all have fences around our properties and locks on our doors. We protect our stuff inside our homes and the people we love with them.

We dont make walls/lock our doors to keep those we hate out, we do it to keep the ones we love safe.

Walls have been proven to work in countless different countries: Norway, Israel, Spain, Morocco, and others.

I see no reason to not build a wall

The ideas is what a perfect wall means, not how we use walls in socio-political ways.

[CoolGuy108]

I suppose then just the basic perfect wall would have:

Rebarb
Steel
Hardened Concrete
Is Tall
Cameras
Heat Sensors
Vibration Detectors for Tunnels

Thats it. A perfect wall.

Cant be climbed without detection(cameras/heat sensors)
Cant be drilled through without lots of time/loud machinery(cant cover heat from machines either)
Cant be tunneled under as vibration sensors notice them.

Done

[sqishy]

I suppose then just the basic perfect wall would have:

Rebarb
Steel
Hardened Concrete
Is Tall
Cameras
Heat Sensors
Vibration Detectors for Tunnels

Thats it. A perfect wall.

Cant be climbed without detection(cameras/heat sensors)
Cant be drilled through without lots of time/loud machinery(cant cover heat from machines either)
Cant be tunneled under as vibration sensors notice them.

Done

Have you read the first post here?

[Flapjack]

This is not about Trump; at this stage I'd lock him in a universe of his own literally if I had the chance.
Oh my gosh I am dyingXD So is this about the actual science of the perfect wall?

[lliam]

Have you read the first post here?


i looked at it. The impression of it was amzing. I felt like:


http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/wall_of_text_1664.gif


so I asked myself, whether if it wouldn't been wiser to develop a theory of a perfect barrier (eg such as the surface tension of a ocean or something (was something similar meant?)) step by step as to pack so much specifications, examples etc in the intro post of this thread.



At least I sugguest, it should be mandatory for VT-tourists have a closer look at your Wall of Text.



Donald Trump would be impressed (sorry, couldn't resist).

[sqishy]

Oh my gosh I am dyingXD So is this about the actual science of the perfect wall?

'Science'/idea about a perfect wall yes!



so I asked myself, whether if it wouldn't been wiser to develop a theory of a perfect barrier (eg such as the surface tension of a ocean or something (was something similar meant?)) step by step as to pack so much specifications, examples etc in the intro post of this thread.

It would be wiser yes, it would offer more on the part of the reader to think between the lines so to speak. I can do that, and it would be much shorter, but I felt like taking the long detailed route this timeto see how it would turn out.

I'll do that soon here, too.


At least I sugguest, it should be mandatory for VT-tourists have a closer look at your Wall of Text.

Preferably yes.


Donald Trump would be impressed (sorry, couldn't resist).

Keeps the spacetime cartel out.