Sanders Socialism

[Rydar8]

The idea of American socialism honestly scares me. I don't think Bernie Sanders understands the American Dream. As a 17 year old voter (Yes this is legal in my state), entering college under socialism just ends all my ideas. So I might as well change my major from political science to gender studies. I plan to come out of college and hopefully land a job soon, but under American socialism only to find out that since I'm making money I have to give it to the people who don't have a job, who are wasting their money on stuff like drugs, not trying, or all 3, because apparently that's "equality". No. The Declaration of Independence guarantees life liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, you don't get happiness by begging for it from the wealthy. Maybe you should get a job, rise up and BECOME the wealthy. Everyone has that opportunity.

So please, can all Sanders supporters please tell me how I'm "wrong" that would be just swell.

Also Bernie Sanders looks like he's trying to take over the world. LOOK AT HIM

[phuckphace]

Maybe you should get a job, rise up and BECOME the wealthy. Everyone has that opportunity.

I don't support Sanders but this was pretty lol, especially the above bit


http://i.imgur.com/mYiXqnG.png

[Vlerchan]

... political science...
I don't mean to begin this post with a ad hominem but as someone considering pursuing political science it might be worth reading up history behind socialist intellectual thought. Sanders isn't a socialists - it just seems to be the case inside a political arena of relative conservatives.

... but under American socialism only to find out that since I'm making money I have to give it to the people who don't have a job, who are wasting their money on stuff like drugs, not trying, or all 3, because apparently that's "equality".
Some amount of it will go to these people. But most people on welfare have full-time jobs - and an even larger number don't use drugs.

The actual function of the welfare state is to procure the pacification of working-class people - and to embed a structure that it might be possible to build further liberalisation upon. It's dificult to convince people to vote for market-orientated strategies when the impending competition might lose them their job.

Consider funding welfare as a means of expanding long-run average wage.

....PURSUIT of happiness....
If the implication here is that being able to hoard tax-free cash dollars is essential and fundemental to this pursuit then that's rather sad.

Nonetheless Sanders suggestions would still allow the holding of vast amounts of wealth.

... you don't get happiness by begging for it from the wealthy.
Yes. There's vast amount of research painting welfare-dependents as living unhappier lives and being out of work is crippling to self-esteem and self-image. I imagine part of this is embedded in their perceived social image as beggars and drug addicts.

The likelihood is that opening them up to eviction and hunger isn't going to reverse this though.

Everyone has that opportunity.
Everyone has that opportunity. some just have it more than others.

So please, can all Sanders supporters please tell me how I'm "wrong" that would be just swell.
Please note: not a Sanders supporter: I just can't resist a good strawman.

[Stronk Serb]

The idea of American socialism honestly scares me. I don't think Bernie Sanders understands the American Dream. As a 17 year old voter (Yes this is legal in my state), entering college under socialism just ends all my ideas. So I might as well change my major from political science to gender studies. I plan to come out of college and hopefully land a job soon, but under American socialism only to find out that since I'm making money I have to give it to the people who don't have a job, who are wasting their money on stuff like drugs, not trying, or all 3, because apparently that's "equality". No. The Declaration of Independence guarantees life liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, you don't get happiness by begging for it from the wealthy. Maybe you should get a job, rise up and BECOME the wealthy. Everyone has that opportunity.

So please, can all Sanders supporters please tell me how I'm "wrong" that would be just swell.

Also Bernie Sanders looks like he's trying to take over the world. LOOK AT HIM


Dunno if it's just me, but the guy looks like a sex offender/paedophile with that stature. He is a dememted old man who will ruin the American economy. He is claiming something about being socialist and pro-working class but will amp up the taxes, a lot. The rich might not feel it, but the poor feel every percent of it. His policies are insane.

[Vlerchan]

He is a dememted old man who will ruin the American economy.
I would appreciate if you could expand here. Thank you.

The rich might not feel it, but the poor feel every percent of it.
Sanders isn't increasing taxes for the poor.

[phuckphace]

first off you shouldn't worry about Sanders because even if he were a "real" socialist, he's not getting elected. it's either the God-Emperor or Hillary, and if it's the latter you'll get your gender studies and emboldened BLM mobs roaming about like the Walking Dead.

mainly I'm just lollin because if the last decade or so taught us anything it's that the American Dream is fantasy and our generation is suffering the worst in the Nu-Economy. you'll know what I mean after you put in all that work for a degree and then discover that employers want people with 40 decades prior experience and/or H1B visas instead of you.

the economy is already "ruined" for everyone except those already at the top - for example Walmart recently discontinued holiday pay and certain other benefits for its employees while reporting $16 billion in net profits last fiscal year. have fun brobeans.

[sqishy]

I've not much to say except that Sanders is not a socialist.

[Rydar8]

It was hinted that I educate myself, so I did and here's what I've got to show for it.

From:
https://fee.org/articles/why-socialism-failed/

"In a capitalist economy, incentives are of the utmost importance. Market prices, the profit-and-loss system of accounting, and private property rights provide an efficient, interrelated system of incentives to guide and direct economic behavior. Capitalism is based on the theory that incentives matter!

Under socialism, incentives either play a minimal role or are ignored totally. A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity. By failing to emphasize incentives, socialism is a theory inconsistent with human nature and is therefore doomed to fail. Socialism is based on the theory that incentives don’t matter!"

From: www.mises.org/

"Socialism will not work, whether in one country, a multi-state region such as Europe, or the entire world. Ludwig von Mises explained that socialism is not an alternative economic system. It is a program for consumption. It tells us nothing about economic production. Since each man's production must be distributed to all of mankind, there is no economic incentive to produce anything, although there may be the incentive of coercion and threats of violence. Conversely, free market capitalism is an economic system of production, whereby each man owns the product of his own labors and, therefore, has great economic incentives to produce both for himself, his family, and has surplus goods to trade for the surplus product of others. Even under life and death threats neither the socialist worker nor his overseer would know what to produce, how to produce it, or in what quantities and qualities. These economic cues are the product of free market capitalism and money prices."

Please feel free to interpret that on your own
Also...



Sanders isn't increasing taxes for the poor.

Here's some data (see attached files)

Under the current Min. wage a sanders presidency will cause a tax increase of 17.5%, but Sanders also wants to increase the min. wage to $15 an hour, causing a tax of increase of 23.5%.
so hopefully $15 an hour doesn't become the new min. wage, but its unlikely it will get through congress. But I guess he could just follow Obama and use executive action to get what he wants (Obama used it for immigration reform, completely ignoring congress (aka the people))

(I really hope the pics are in order, sorry if they aren't)

first off you shouldn't worry about Sanders because even if he were a "real" socialist, he's not getting elected.

that's great, but his delegate count is getting close enough to Clintons that it worries me

[Vlerchan]

A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity.
Sanders isn't removing the price-signal and thus the economic calculation problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem) isn't of relevance to the discussion.

Since each man's production must be distributed to all of mankind, there is no economic incentive to produce anything, although there may be the incentive of coercion and threats of violence [...] These economic cues are the product of free market capitalism and money prices.
Just to emphasise:

The criticisms are directed at centrally-planned economies. Sanders is not advocating the adoption of a centrally-planned economy.

(I really hope the pics are in order, sorry if they aren't)
They are. It would seem I was incorrect in that case.

However I'll add that I'm sceptical that calculating entitlements correctly. With regards to these numbers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Effective_income_tax_rates) the bottom quantile oversees an increase in their income once entitlements are accounted for. That the programme used to compile those numbers doesn't seem to recognise that would indicate it's leaving out a factor that could potentially be of significant importance under a Sanders presidency.

I'll add though that I'll probably be wrong once the increased minimum wage is taken into account nonetheless. I hadn't accounted for that being passed when I first made that claim.

But I guess he could just follow Obama and use executive action to get what he wants (Obama used it for immigration reform, completely ignoring congress (aka the people))
I'm quite sure it's impossible to use executive orders to implement minimum wage standards.

Regardless all presidents in the last century have made use of a considerable number of executive orders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order). There's no reason to single Obama out for it.

What's more: government institutions in the U.S. were designed to allow for a relative detachment from the will of the people.

[Porpoise101]

Where do I start. First of all, he isn't a socialist in the original sense of the word. He doesn't want to nationalise everything and he doesn't want to abolish the banks and such. What he does want to do is reinvest, expand, or create new social programs. I'd say it's worth it to say least take back some of the tax cuts on the rich and start at least investing more into the education, science, and infrastructure of the country. The status quo in taxation is a recent phenomenon. Even during the Reagan administration the taxation on the highest earners was 50%. In the big picture, the tax rate is abnormally low.

[phuckphace]

[...]Ludwig von Mises[...]

http://i.imgur.com/MpjvBt4.jpg

[Stronk Serb]

Vlerchan

Not sure I understood it because administrative English isn't my strong suit, but this sounded like that. Also in general when you look at the estimated results, it looks terrible to let him implememt his reforms. Also I called him a demented old man because I heard he said that white people can't experience poverty. They can't if they are in a Senator's chair you fossilised trash.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details-and-analysis-senator-bernie-sanders-s-tax-plan

[Vlerchan]

Not sure I understood it because administrative English isn't my strong suit, but this sounded like that.
The finding is that the Sanders plan would reduce the long-run output potential of the U.S. economy.

Also in general when you look at the estimated results, it looks terrible to let him implememt his reforms.
The issue though that expanding gross output isn't the preoccupation of the Sanders plan. The preoccupation is in correcting the distribution of the returns on the current stock of output - i.e. reducing inequality. Those figures tell one half of it.

The argument of the Sanders campaign is that increases in gross output aren't benefiting the average person [re: phuckphace's post in this thread] - so there is no reason to be so preoccupied with it.

Also I called him a demented old man because I heard he said that white people can't experience poverty.
Link please.

[Stronk Serb]

Vlerchan

The cost of that "reduction of inequality" is almost six million jobs lost, a Jobocaust. Trying to fix income inequality in the US is a lost cause by now. It's so dependent on keeping the poor poor and keeping the rich-richer that every meddling has horrible consequences for everyone.

Here is the link you asked:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/bernie-sanders-ghetto_us_56dce712e4b03a405679062b

[Vlerchan]

The cost of that "reduction of inequality" is almost six million jobs lost, a Jobocaust.
Yes. That estimate does seem a bit on the high-side though. I would want to see corroborating reports. Nonetheless a reduction in the efficiency of the U.S. economy to the tune that Sanders is proposing would without a doubt kill jobs.

---

I also figured out what the big issue is. The report isn't taking into account the taxes will be funnelled into creating a single-payer healthcare system which has the likelihood of being a massive boon to firms.

Without taking into account the role of government investment the figures are going to be incredibly misleading.

Trying to fix income inequality in the US is a lost cause by now. It's so dependent on keeping the poor poor and keeping the rich-richer that every meddling has horrible consequences for everyone.
The big issue with Sander's plan is - in fact - that the tax proposals he's suggesting are highly distortion-inducing. It's feasible to make some gains on this issue.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/berni...b03a405679062b
That's not the same thing as saying white people can't be poor. The claim being made is that the experiences of impoverished blacks and whites are different.

[Porpoise101]

Another thing about Sanders is that he is new and will be open to listening. Maybe he could revive dead issues like UBI and education in general.

[DriveAlive]

Barney Frank certainly seems to think that Sanders is a fraud

[Porpoise101]

Barney Frank certainly seems to think that Sanders is a fraud
That's true. I read an interview that he gave. He is definitely pro Hillary, that's for sure.