Islam & Muslims megathread

[phuckphace]

okay so I was going to wait for Vlerchan's effort-post on the subject but I'm impatient af so here's one from me instead. feel free to dump whatever you were going to post (if anything) ITT. :P

anyway, I guess this can be the Islam general thread - feel free to share any thoughts and opinions you have on the topic but I'm mainly interested in Islam vs. the West - is it compatible? is Islam a threat? is the religion a problem in and of itself? etc.

speaking for myself, I'm a live and let live kind of guy when it comes to foreign things - I don't particularly care for the religion but at the same time I'm perfectly fine with it existing so long as it stays put in Muslim-majority nations and doesn't influence the politics and demographics of Western nations.

my main objection to Islam itself is the fatalism. let's say a poorly constructed footbridge in Mecca collapses and crushes 1,000 pilgrims to death during the Hajj - Muslims will simply shrug it off as "God's will" - everything that happens or doesn't happen is because God wills it to, and we as powerless mortals are just along for the ride. a Westerner might point to the bridge disaster and say something like, "hey dumbasses, if you'd built your bridge sturdier and maybe put up a maximum load capacity on it, this could've been prevented." the value of acting to prevent disaster seems so obvious to us that we often forget that a lot of other cultures don't think like this - they view things like safety precautions as pointless, because whether safely or unsafely built, if God wills it to collapse and kill people, it's going to come down no matter what. (incidentally, I think part of the success of the West is owed to the rejection of fatalism - it's an awful worldview with literally disastrous social effects).

your turn!

[Living For Love]

Is it true you guys say "Oh my Allah!" instead of "Oh my God!"? :D

Seriously, though, I respect most Muslims because they are possibly the most ardent and faithful worshippers I've met; the thing is, they seem to have this kind of inferiority complex which makes them hate every single person who is not a Muslim. Whether Islam and the West are compatible, I'd say no, cultural differences are simply too much, and I can't see a way of both co-existing harmoniously.

[DriveAlive]

I think that the religion oppresses women and is rather disgusting in its treatment of them.

[TheFlyer]

speaking for myself, I'm a live and let live kind of guy when it comes to foreign things - I don't particularly care for the religion but at the same time I'm perfectly fine with it existing so long as it stays put in Muslim-majority nations and doesn't influence the politics and demographics of Western nations.

This is a great way of explaining it. Thanks for posting a thread such as this, this is something that needs to be talked about. I agree with you, in the fact that Muslims and non muslim people will not get along. And should be separated. I believe that their religion is harmful and oppressive to women, and to children. I barely like calling it a religion. I don't know how things are going for y'all in America, but I know places like Germany, England, France is over run, and it is dangerous. I don't mean that in a racial way, but the fact that so many are being let in, and it is obvious that there are some that have intents that are completely undetectable. The Paris attacks, the Belgium attack. I am a tolerant person. But only to those that are tolerant of me. In Canada, we are slowly turning into what European countries like Germany are. If we weren't so far away, we would be housing more than any other country. Our moronic Liberal government is slowly opening a door, and on the other side is the death of the Western world. Like I said, I have nothing against other religions, whether you are Protestant, Jewish, agnostic, Sikh, Hindu, Confucian, atheist. But Muslims take thing to a whole other level. For example, in the French province of Quebec, in a small town, a muslim parent demanded pork be removed from the school cafeteria. Thankfully, the mayor basically said get bent. How often to Jewish people or Sikhs make requests like this? Not very often around here. Another thing,at a local Catholic university, muslim students are demanding that Catholic symbols be removed and a muslim prayer room be allocated. That disgusts me. Well, that is my rant. I am happy to discuss.:cool:

[Syzygy]

most of them take it way too seriously compared to other religious groups. which is a problem when a serious portion of them believe in killing those who leave islam for example.

[Porpoise101]

I think all the Muslims I know are pretty chill from my chem teacher, my grocer, my friends, etc. Only one who isn't is my nutcase Syrian Sunni nationalist friend. He is a 'Death to Israel' kind of guy, but likes secularism. He just hates Israel because he says it's part of Syria. Also, many Muslims hate each other based on Sunni/Shia I guess. But that's not really a problem in the US.

From my experience dealing with Hindus and Muslims, I can tell that the more conservative, oppressive worldviews are held mostly by the elderly. The Muslim community is overall, pretty anti gay. But so are many Hindus, Buddhists, and Christians.

Islamic culture is pretty cool. Nice art, interesting history. I always like to learn about how Islam has mixed with older cultures. It's interesting to me. The more peripheral you go with Islam (West Africa, Indonesia, India, Central Asia), the more un Arabized it gets. It brings a different perspective on the faith.

Also the fatalism thing is kind of weird I guess. My Hindu great uncle is like that too. He is a Deus Vult kind of guy. But I feel that Mecca is in bad hands. It should be governed internationally by a community of Muslims. Saudi Arabia is irresponsible and evil.

[Leprous]

I think that the religion oppresses women and is rather disgusting in its treatment of them.

I've been to 4 Muslim countries and all I can say is that the Muslims there are actually nice people. However, when we were in Dubai literally all of them refused to talk to my mom which shows your statement is true in some ways. They don't really respect women but I don't think they get abused all the time either.

[Jinglebottom]

Oh, I have many experiences. Many.

1. I have honestly never a bunch that dislikes the other sect as much as Muslims. I could cite you a ton of examples about how prominent the Sunni-Shia divide is among school kids. It's fucking disgusting, how are they supposed to tolerate non-Muslims if they can't tolerate themselves first?

2. Contrary to popular belief, not all of them are terrorists. I actually really like the Muslim community in Beirut. They're very moderate and tolerant people, and none of them care that I have a different religion. They're ordinary fellows. I wouldn't reserve the same judgement for the Muslims in Dubai, some of them seem rather annoyed by the constant presence of Western tourists in their city. One of them gave my parents and I the stink eye, and I still remember.

3. None of the Muslims here have explicitly encouraged the total ban of pork. How unfair would that be for those of us who do eat pork? And everyone drinks alcohol to varying degrees, only the really dedicated ones abstain themselves.

On to the negative experiences I've had over the past few years:

You know how they fast during the entire month of Ramadan, well I was buying some ice cream and a Muslim approaches me and says "I hope you choke on that" and I'm like "go behead some infidels you pos" (ok no).

In 5th grade, I asked some dude on Facebook what the Kaaba meant (I was NOT trolling). He was having this sleepover with a couple of his friends and he told them "OMG IBRAHIM IS A KAFFIR!!!" and they were like lol no. I know that because one of his friends mentioned it to me the next day and I laughed my ass off. Sorry I don't know what your Kaaba is bruh I'll do my research next time bb.

Should I tell you about that one time I got mistaken for a Jew in Dubai? :)

[phuckphace]

Our moronic Liberal government is slowly opening a door, and on the other side is the death of the Western world.

looks like somebody isn't aware of THE CURRENT YEAR (dude weed lmao!)

Also the fatalism thing is kind of weird I guess. My Hindu great uncle is like that too. He is a Deus Vult kind of guy.

I never really thought about it until recently, but I noticed that cultural fatalism overlaps handily with the Third World - if a given culture thinks this way, it's almost guaranteed to be poverty-stricken, with the exception of the Gulf States and their petrodollars, not counting their huge Indian/Filipino slave population of course.

But I feel that Mecca is in bad hands. It should be governed internationally by a community of Muslims. Saudi Arabia is irresponsible and evil.

I have to wonder if maybe this ties into the fatalism thing. the Saudis take it to a ridiculous extreme, which to visiting Westerners looks like laziness and incompetence (it probably is). the entire country is a death trap run in the most inept and corrupt manner possible - this shouldn't be surprising when its people have such a terrible worldview.

Should I tell you about that one time I got mistaken for a Jew in Dubai? :)

oy vey, please do.

[Jinglebottom]

oy vey, please do.
You're not allowed to drink or eat publicly in Dubai during their holy month, so of course I said fuck the police, opened my water bottle, and drank to my heart's desire (as if we weren't in the middle of the dry desert or something). It was a quick sip so I didn't expect anyone to see me. But next thing you know, I see some man dressed in a uniform heading towards my family and I. First, he asked us what we were. We told him, "Druze". Then his face turns red and he's like "Jews?!". We responded with: "No, no! Druze! We're Arabs!" but he couldn't understand a single word (dialect differences) so he asked for our papers lol. But he let us go in the end, I felt like he was about to call for our deportation.

[Stronk Serb]

"Muslim" friend from Bosnia:
Friend from college got together with a Serb girl, but they kept it hush-hush from his parents. Eventually they found out and went apeshit mad, his mother told him she would rather have him fuck and marry a female dog than be with her. I don't understand the Muslims here, most of them drink, some are whoring around and some are doing drugs. They do all of that but dating Serbs and eating pork? Absoluteky haram! I would understand if the girls parents went mad, since she is the only child and they are Orthodox Christians, but they are chill with it.

I put it in quotation marks since he is an atheist with sympathies to Christianity. He is just labelled Muslim because 'muh demographics for difference between Serbs 'n' shit'.

[West Coast Sheriff]

I wonder why the left is so tolerant of Islam? Islam and the left have only one common interest (a disdain for Christianity).

I would be more tolerant of Islam if moderate, common day Muslims started calling out radical Islam. I think radical Islam is a huge problem and we must address it. It doesn't belong in the west. If Muslims want to practice here, they are entitled to. We still need to respect that sharia law opposes our constitution and our way of life.

We do need to be aware of its dangerous effects. We must note when a trend or pattern begins to develop within a group of people. It's not racism, bigotry or hatred but rather awareness. We should condemn the radical Islamic ideology and ask moderate Muslims to join in. There's a great video by Prager University that explains the effect of a silent majority of Muslims.

The only thing I still am unaware of is why the left wants to cater to Muslims when they are so different.

[Stronk Serb]

I wonder why the left is so tolerant of Islam? Islam and the left have only one common interest (a disdain for Christianity).

I would be more tolerant of Islam if moderate, common day Muslims started calling out radical Islam. I think radical Islam is a huge problem and we must address it. It doesn't belong in the west. If Muslims want to practice here, they are entitled to. We still need to respect that sharia law opposes our constitution and our way of life.

We do need to be aware of its dangerous effects. We must note when a trend or pattern begins to develop within a group of people. It's not racism, bigotry or hatred but rather awareness. We should condemn the radical Islamic ideology and ask moderate Muslims to join in. There's a great video by Prager University that explains the effect of a silent majority of Muslims.

The only thing I still am unaware of is why the left wants to cater to Muslims when they are so different.

Because 'muh poor opressed rapefugees'. They should be treated like the rest of us. Hardcore lefties tend to despise radical Muslims, but today's crusties would rather be "culturally" enriched than stand by common sense. I think before leftists actually fought against unchecked immigration because it endangered the worker. In America, for example, for the cost of sacking one local worker, you can hire three illegals.

[Vlerchan]

I'm a leftist. Ama.

Being serious here. Let's put some misconceptions to rest.

I wonder why the left is so tolerant of Islam?
It's not tolerant of Islam as much as arab cultural-identities. This is in large because nativists form a more potent coalition - vis-a-vis our ideological interests - than Islamists.

[Porpoise101]

Islam and the left have only one common interest (a disdain for Christianity).

I would be more tolerant of Islam if moderate, common day Muslims started calling out radical Islam.

a great video by Prager University
The left has a disdain for clerical politicians like Cruz and Huckabee. They are pretty accepting even of Catholics and Orthodox followers. They only hate the Bible-thumping Protestants who are pretty moralistic and aggressive. Anyone who leads a quieter religious life (not being unnecessarily preachy) is supported. That is why the left accommodates religious minorities in the country, since they tend to be less open and they seclude themselves from the public.
Edit: it's also why the Left hates clerofascist type Muslims. Only super anti-Christian faction in the left are New Atheists (who also tend to hate Muslims even more)

The seclusion though could be bad though. If you are isolated within only members of your ethnic/religious group, their ideas will imprint on you. Worse, potentially bad people will be sheltered by the community. In Belgium, after the attacks they started to tell the Muslim-Belgians to call out bad people. There, it's needed because the native culture isn't assertive. But we don't have this issue. American culture is pervasive, and the Muslim population gets Americanized and secularised within the second generation. In the US, we ostensibly block those who can't speak English from the entire society. So if the parents have to pass through that filter, the kids grow up conditioned to be American. The exception are Spanish-speakers. Many Muslims do call out each other. Here's an opinion piece. It's biased, but mostly just pay attention to the portion dealing with outing each other: http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/us/muslims-in-america-shattering-misperception/

A bit about Prager U... They are people who twist fact into misinformation. Some of their stuff is ok though, so I'll check it out.

[TheFlyer]

looks like somebody isn't aware of THE CURRENT YEAR (dude weed lmao!)

Are you referencing the liberals legalizing marijuana in Canada? There hasn't been official talk of it yet. I think it is an idiotic idea, and once again will lead to the western world being completely baked. I suppose it wouldn't be a horrible thing, because when the liberals are stoned, we can ship them off!
:cool:

[phuckphace]

It's not tolerant of Islam as much as arab cultural-identities. This is in large because nativists form a more potent coalition - vis-a-vis our ideological interests - than Islamists.

from an outside perspective, it looks more like the Left despising nativism so much that they align with the West's ideological enemies out of spite.

it's always struck me as deeply ironic because leftists would be the first to hang in any Muslim-majority nation.

Are you referencing the liberals legalizing marijuana in Canada? There hasn't been official talk of it yet. I think it is an idiotic idea, and once again will lead to the western world being completely baked. I suppose it wouldn't be a horrible thing, because when the liberals are stoned, we can ship them off! :cool:

I actually don't care about weed, I just thought it was funny that Justin Trudeau actually used this trivial issue to get elected. he's a very irritating combination of inept and snarky (if you don't agree that placing as many women as possible into government is our highest priority, well, maybe you need to look at a calendar!) and tops it all off by cavorting with refugees.

you guys got very lucky with Harper - he was actually competent and led the country through what could've otherwise been Canada's worst economic years ever - but most Canadians seem to hate him. anyone who thinks Trudeau is good for Canada in any way needs to have their head checked.

[TheFlyer]

Justin Trudeau is horrible. Stephen Haroer was and still is awesome, but now he is just an MP. Our leader of OP is Rona Ambrose, and she is amazing.

[Porpoise101]

This sub always has its topics changed. It was meant to be about Muslims and Islam, but now we are talking about Canadian politics. Such is the ROTW life. [emoji2]

[phuckphace]

^it's relevant because I wanted to examine Islam's relationship with the West, as explained in the OP. even more so because al-Trudeau bin Pierre is trying to turn Canada into a caliphate.

I think my points about the huge cultural divide and the fundamental differences in worldview are pretty important here - multiculturalism leans heavily on the assumption that people are all basically the same except for language and skin tone. but what would the West look like if we pulled the same "whatever mang, God is great" attitude when a preventable disaster happens? it would probably look a lot more like Saudi Arabia or U.A.E. or India (bad).

my general point being that multiculuralists are wrong and too much foreign influence will be a negative for us.

[Porpoise101]

my general point being that multiculuralists are wrong and too much foreign influence will be a negative for us.
Look I think some foreign influence is healthy. It lets people understand each other better and it opens up our worldview. We may even find some betterment from foreigners. Some cool things I prefer about India for instance are extended families, a sense of community, and it's 'unity in diversity' way. You say there will be too much influence, I don't know about Canada, but the USA will only have about 2% Muslims at maximum based on current trends. I doubt that is even close to being too much.

As for my great uncle, he believes that things happen because people don't prepare for them. "If you are stupid, your fall is inevitable", that is his motto. I bring this up because this belief is a little different than the Saudis who will shrug off a crane crash that squishes Hajj-goers. It's more of the mentality of a doomsday prepper which may or may not be better.

[phuckphace]

We may even find some betterment from foreigners.

I guess that depends on which foreigners we're talking about.

I think we have little if anything to learn from the Third World aside from them serving as an unlimited cache of cautionary tales.

Some cool things I prefer about India for instance are extended families, a sense of community, and it's 'unity in diversity' way.

the first two things sound eerily similar to what we used to have in the US before the machinations of globalism and leftist politics killed it off, with the added bonus of drinkable water and toilets.

You say there will be too much influence, I don't know about Canada, but the USA will only have about 2% Muslims at maximum based on current trends. I doubt that is even close to being too much.

bear in mind I'm not singling out Muslims, in the sense that I don't view them as any more of a threat than any other foreign influence (they're all equally undesirable IMO).

I bring this up because this belief is a little different than the Saudis who will shrug off a crane crash that squishes Hajj-goers.

ah, gotcha.

[Hudor]

okay so I was going to wait for Vlerchan's effort-post on the subject but I'm impatient af so here's one from me instead. feel free to dump whatever you were going to post (if anything) ITT. :P

anyway, I guess this can be the Islam general thread - feel free to share any thoughts and opinions you have on the topic but I'm mainly interested in Islam vs. the West - is it compatible? is Islam a threat? is the religion a problem in and of itself? etc.

speaking for myself, I'm a live and let live kind of guy when it comes to foreign things - I don't particularly care for the religion but at the same time I'm perfectly fine with it existing so long as it stays put in Muslim-majority nations and doesn't influence the politics and demographics of Western nations.

my main objection to Islam itself is the fatalism. let's say a poorly constructed footbridge in Mecca collapses and crushes 1,000 pilgrims to death during the Hajj - Muslims will simply shrug it off as "God's will" - everything that happens or doesn't happen is because God wills it to, and we as powerless mortals are just along for the ride. a Westerner might point to the bridge disaster and say something like, "hey dumbasses, if you'd built your bridge sturdier and maybe put up a maximum load capacity on it, this could've been prevented." the value of acting to prevent disaster seems so obvious to us that we often forget that a lot of other cultures don't think like this - they view things like safety precautions as pointless, because whether safely or unsafely built, if God wills it to collapse and kill people, it's going to come down no matter what. (incidentally, I think part of the success of the West is owed to the rejection of fatalism - it's an awful worldview with literally disastrous social effects).

your turn!

I wouldn't consider it a universal phenomenon but i agree it exists to a major extent. I think, it owes to the lack of education, influence of religious leaders and belief in notions of their own faith ( for eg; fatwas over laws). There exist free thinkers and rational people everywhere as do corrupt people with selfish motives and great influence. Also, based on various texts, i believe that fatalism has little to do with the faith itself and more with who propagates it.
From what I've read, the original Islamic philosophy is to Do the best you can and then leave it to God/Allah and that without any effort himself, man should not expect any help from God because God helps only those who help themselves. It's fairly convenient to forget parts of it and spread the message partially and make people feel more helpless and dependent. That's basically what a lot of religious leaders feed on.

As to the compatibility with the West, i think the main issue that is troublesome is the relation of Islam with terrorism. Most terrorists are Muslims and that's a point to ponder upon. I don't consider all Muslims to be terrorists or consorting with them but given the nature of the religious texts and the influence of their proponents, it seems easier to spread the message of hate which is completely in contrast to the actual message of peace. Also, Muslims to a major extent in my experience, tend to be quite rigid about their beliefs and faith and prefer not to conform to foreign influences on their culture as much as possible. The sense of community and their solidarity is quite amazing and largely unparalleled in any other major religion like Christianity and Hinduism.

[phuckphace]

Also, Muslims to a major extent in my experience, tend to be quite rigid about their beliefs and faith and prefer not to conform to foreign influences on their culture as much as possible. The sense of community and their solidarity is quite amazing and largely unparalleled in any other major religion like Christianity and Hinduism.

Christianity of several hundred years ago was like this too, complete with beheading heretics and perverts (although it was usually less sloppy and explode-y than the Muslims' methods). it's kind of funny to me that lefties, especially the gay SJW types fear being burned at the stake by Christians even though the Jesus krew forgot how to do that centuries ago.

[phuckphace]

time for a thread split because I'm bad at staying on topic

North Africa is best Africa
I dunno, if you say so x). But thanks. People usually don't really know much about this part of the world.

North African Muslims seem a lot more chill than the Gulf/Levant crew, in my experience. my Moroccan friend IRL (a kaffir) said he never needed to worry about losing his head for being a kaffir in public, so that's cool. Algerians also seem slightly more Westernized, I guess because French rule turned down the durka-durka a bit.

[TheFlyer]

Islam is the second largest religion in Canada, with about 1 million out of 35 million people practicing, and they are mostly in Alberta, and Ontario. In Canada, we have 3.2% muslim population! compared to the United States 0.9%. Muslim is also the fastest growing religion in Canada. That scares me.

I have first hand experience with our large muslim numbers. Of course me being Catholic and living in the middle of no where, I don't have any Muslim buddies. But when we make a trip to the capital of Alberta, Edmonton, which is a mainly blue collar oil city, is overrun. Yu cannot go anywhere in that city without meeting a muslim. Especially in the malls, I would say that there are more muslim people than any body else!

I am all for immigration, Canada and the United States of America was formed from immigration. However, I don't think Muslims can come into our society and settle in like other people can. What makes our high population of nearly one million Muslims even more scary, is the fact that our prime minister is encouraging more to come. And when phuckphace says that Justin Trudeau wants Canada to be a caliphate, that is not far off. There have been images of him in a particular mosque, one that is known for supporting the infamous organization of Hamas and Hezbollah, taking part in a ceremony which makes him technically a muslim. Of course our canadian media, most notably CBC does not share this with people. I firmly believe Canada will be the first country in the west (read: Europe, North America) to fall to muslim power, and actually become a caliphate. Other than Turkey, I know of no other country that is so supportive of Muslims.

One more thing, Justin Trudeau also has a MP named Omar Algahbra, who was born in Saudi Arabia, and has said he does not think Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations, and that members of the government should not participate in a Jewish walk in Toronto. Wow

http://www.ezralevant.com/meet-the-anti-semitic-muslim-mp-justin-trudeau-just-put-in-charge-of-our-consulates/

[Porpoise101]

North African Muslims seem a lot more chill than the Gulf/Levant crew, in my experience. my Moroccan friend IRL (a kaffir) said he never needed to worry about losing his head for being a kaffir in public, so that's cool. Algerians also seem slightly more Westernized, I guess because French rule turned down the durka-durka a bit.
Like I said earlier, the less Arabized Islam is, the more different and interesting and varied it gets. North Africa had a European history until the 7th-8th century. The culture is also very different. Sure, they speak Arabic, but it is heavily influenced by Berbers. Also geography. North Africa was often ruled by different independent principalities ruling from a big city. So these cities have their own culture. I don't know if wolf g is still on, but she told me there are different traditions and cultures across the 14 Algerian provinces. Since they are between Arabia and Europe, they have adapted a culture to fit that. You can see it in Tunisia and Algeria especially. Here, there are essentially 3 peoples: Mediterranean Euros, Arabs, and Berbers. Now if you go to a very diverse region like Indonesia, it gets even more interesting.

[phuckphace]

I've actually only ever met one actual Muslim IRL, although if Prez Clinton has her way that's likely to change. it was a woman in full black burqa who came in shopping where I work. she was very polite and got all motherly concerned when she noticed me sniffling and sneezing, lol. based on her accent and what little I could see of her she was probably North African or maybe even Iranian.

if all Muslim immigrants were like Mrs. Burqa here it wouldn't bother me quite so much, but it seems when the immigrant population reaches a certain critical mass they get all jihady and demand sharia courts and other inanities.

[Stronk Serb]

I've actually only ever met one actual Muslim IRL, although if Prez Clinton has her way that's likely to change. it was a woman in full black burqa who came in shopping where I work. she was very polite and got all motherly concerned when she noticed me sniffling and sneezing, lol. based on her accent and what little I could see of her she was probably North African or maybe even Iranian.

if all Muslim immigrants were like Mrs. Burqa here it wouldn't bother me quite so much, but it seems when the immigrant population reaches a certain critical mass they get all jihady and demand sharia courts and other inanities.

I doubt she is Iranian. Compared to other Muslim states, Iran is pretty chill. Aside from being annoyed by Albanians on Corfu, two Turks I met were pretty chill. They were not like you filthy infidel, we more suoerior.

[Porpoise101]

I have met and seen a lot, personally knowing about 6

My chemistry teacher (Lebanese)
My Syrian bud
3 other students at my school (Paki, Iranian, Indonesian)
My grocer (Iraqi)

They are all nice in general. They are all good English speakers and they have nice manners. They are tolerant of others as far as I know. The Iraqi even married a Chaldean (pretty much a Christian from Iraq).

[Arkansasguy]

okay so I was going to wait for Vlerchan's effort-post on the subject but I'm impatient af so here's one from me instead. feel free to dump whatever you were going to post (if anything) ITT. :P

anyway, I guess this can be the Islam general thread - feel free to share any thoughts and opinions you have on the topic but I'm mainly interested in Islam vs. the West - is it compatible? is Islam a threat? is the religion a problem in and of itself? etc.

speaking for myself, I'm a live and let live kind of guy when it comes to foreign things - I don't particularly care for the religion but at the same time I'm perfectly fine with it existing so long as it stays put in Muslim-majority nations and doesn't influence the politics and demographics of Western nations.

my main objection to Islam itself is the fatalism. let's say a poorly constructed footbridge in Mecca collapses and crushes 1,000 pilgrims to death during the Hajj - Muslims will simply shrug it off as "God's will" - everything that happens or doesn't happen is because God wills it to, and we as powerless mortals are just along for the ride. a Westerner might point to the bridge disaster and say something like, "hey dumbasses, if you'd built your bridge sturdier and maybe put up a maximum load capacity on it, this could've been prevented." the value of acting to prevent disaster seems so obvious to us that we often forget that a lot of other cultures don't think like this - they view things like safety precautions as pointless, because whether safely or unsafely built, if God wills it to collapse and kill people, it's going to come down no matter what. (incidentally, I think part of the success of the West is owed to the rejection of fatalism - it's an awful worldview with literally disastrous social effects).

your turn!

Islam is a heretical offshoot of Christianity. It was invented by the liar Muhammed as a means of amassing personal power (and women). It is hampered by a voluntarist understanding of the relationship of intellect and will, and it is of course highly Judaized. Another problematic aspect of it is its textual positivism, which may have indirectly inspired Protestantism. It is dangerous on an international level when fully applied, because it commands its followers to wage jihad on the unbelievers (in this respect it is similar to liberalism, which also purports that we need to attack those who do not believe).

The importation of Muslims into the west serves the liberal purpose of further destroying what few vestiges of Christendom remain in the west. Because liberalism is objectively more disordered than Islam, I consider it unlikely that the devil will allow a sufficient number of Muslims to enter Europe fast enough to impose sharia law or benefit social mores, rather their influence will be entirely secularizing. For this reason, I oppose Muslim immigration.

On the other hand, the west will continue to aggressively push liberalism on the Muslims in their own countries, through a mixture of ideological subversion and direct force. Because, as I mentioned, liberalism is objectively more degenerate than Islam, I support Islamic regimes efforts to protect their countries from liberalism. Though I do of course support Catholic efforts to evangelize them.

[Porpoise101]

Islam is a heretical offshoot of Christianity.
While Islam has adopted Christian elements throughout it's foundation as a religion, it isn't Christian because they don't worship Christ as some type of God.

Cooking with Porpoise101
Islam is definitely a religion based on Judaism. This Jewish base is combined with the Arab culture of the time. Then you sprinkle a bit of Orthodox and Eastern Christianity. Add a pinch of Zoroastrianism. And a touch of Manichaeism for taste. Then put it on earth and let it age for 1300 years and spread across the East and South. Bam, you got yourself an Islam. Bon appetit.

[phuckphace]

The importation of Muslims into the west serves the liberal purpose of further destroying what few vestiges of Christendom remain in the west.

I don't think so - Christianity was already in decline for decades while Europe was still more or less homogeneous: I recall Sweden forcing its churches to ordain women as early as the 60s. I think it's more or less dead already in Western Europe having been neutered and pacified beyond recognition long before the Muslims showed up.

then there's the Pontifex Maximus claiming that Europe destroying itself with Muslim "refugees" and the US with a Mexican majority is our moral imperative.

I think the engineered demographic upheaval is simply the end goal of neoliberalism - national and ethnic solidarity is inimical to the neoliberal ideals of open borders and maxed-out profits.

[Arkansasguy]

While Islam has adopted Christian elements throughout it's foundation as a religion, it isn't Christian because they don't worship Christ as some type of God.

Of course, it isn't Christian. I just said that it was an offshoot.

I don't think so - Christianity was already in decline for decades while Europe was still more or less homogeneous: I recall Sweden forcing its churches to ordain women as early as the 60s. I think it's more or less dead already in Western Europe having been neutered and pacified beyond recognition long before the Muslims showed up.

There was once a story about a man who stabbed someone 100 times. He didn't need to stab the person that many times, but he really really hated him, which was why he kept stabbing even though the guy had already had it.

then there's the Pontifex Maximus claiming that Europe destroying itself with Muslim "refugees" and the US with a Mexican majority is our moral imperative.

I think the engineered demographic upheaval is simply the end goal of neoliberalism - national and ethnic solidarity is inimical to the neoliberal ideals of open borders and maxed-out profits.

Of course, but I was addressing the specifically religious aspect of it.

[Porpoise101]

It's weird how you guys say Christendom is dying. It's not dying, it's just not growing in the 'right places'. Asia and Africa are becoming more Christian. In fact, I heard on NPR that China will have the most Christians in the world, mostly from conversion.

[Kahn]

I'm not educated enough on the theology to have formed an actual opinion about it.

I dislike their demands in regards to changing western social and political institutions so as to impose their law/values on us, though I will not pretend I know what is best for their nations. I also dislike many muslims very apparent disdain towards the west and western values, despite the fact thay they're now flooding our countries to take advantage of our liberalism. I am not in agreement with any refugee policy taking on a large number of uneducated muslims for the sake of humanitarian efforts. I am vehemently against jihad, and the establishment of a caliphate.

[phuckphace]

It's weird how you guys say Christendom is dying. It's not dying, it's just not growing in the 'right places'. Asia and Africa are becoming more Christian. In fact, I heard on NPR that China will have the most Christians in the world, mostly from conversion.

sub-Saharan African "Christianity" doesn't much resemble actual Christianity (for that matter, neither does the "Catholicism" of Mexico and Brazil despite being counted in the total). there's a lot of kooky syncretism going on - a lot of the "Catholics" in Mexico pray to Mary and Quetzalcoatl - see also their patron saint of drug dealers - and in Africa there's a lot of animism and superstition stirred into the mix. in Brazil you've got big booty bitches twerking on the altar during Mass. to an actual Christian these sorts of additions to the faith automatically render it invalid and heretical.

it also doesn't appear to have much positive influence on their behavior or habits - I keep hearing that Africa has more Christians than Europe now but the rape gangs are still raping and HIV still spreads like a wildfire in a napalm factory. I think this illustrates that even religions that claim to be universal are more or less culture-bound in practice - Christianity is European.

[StoppingTom]

While I agree with immigration and letting refugees in, phuckphace's story about the lady in the burqa made me think. I think people are getting confused in who they dislike. They don't dislike ALL muslims, it's just that opening borders with no restrictions lets everyone, including the dregs of society from where they came from, to come in. People have a problem with shitheads who happen to be Muslim/Mexican/whatever immigrating, and they generalize and project those characteristics onto ALL immigrants.

[Porpoise101]

it also doesn't appear to have much positive influence on their behavior or habits - I keep hearing that Africa has more Christians than Europe now but the rape gangs are still raping and HIV still spreads like a wildfire in a napalm factory. I think this illustrates that even religions that claim to be universal are more or less culture-bound in practice - Christianity is European. I would chalk the crisis in Africa due to the fact that many areas in sub Saharan Africa can't be accessed or governed well to begin with. If you combine that with crippling corruption, demographic differences, and the destruction of the community you get this result.

A country doing ok currently is Nigeria. I would say they are succeeding because they are corrupt enough to actually get things done, like build infrastructure and educate the people. They also have the advantage of sharing a common religion across the many ethnicities (Christianity). The only problem areas are the northern Muslim ones with Boko Haram. Part of the issue there is a religious difference, the other is the poverty.

Here's some interesting maps:http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160415/e0750d7e65f5c0ab14171ee060525ffe.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160415/1e9820c6f6e7a80a2ecd411879df3600.jpg

[phuckphace]

I think an even better example is Liberia, which proves once and for all that there's no magical life-hack to "become prosperous with this 1 weird trick" like progressives believe - some groups simply can't not fail at life.

Liberia was founded by ex-slaves who wanted freedom, and after acquiring this freedom they very quickly reverted back to the African mean of crippling poverty, insane levels of corruption and AIDS, etc. etc. etc. note that their government is an almost exact copy of the American system in structure, but composed of different people so it still failed. on the other hand Christianity in the West historically was a strong inhibitor of corruption, but it doesn't seem to work anywhere else in that regard. anybody wanna take a crack at why?

[Porpoise101]

Christianity in the West historically was a strong inhibitor of corruption
But Catholic Church pre counter reformation tho.

I agree on most of your points though. Some peoples are doomed to fail. I see geography as the limit to success instead of culture. As for Liberia, it was founded by ex slaves, yes. But it was mostly composed of the native people. Instead of Anglos finding "a whole new (resource rich) world", they were black people who landed in an inhospitable land. And the natives didn't contract smallpox and die off either. So they were more or less doomed.

[Vlerchan]

[from an outside perspective, it looks more like the Left despising nativism so much that they align with the West's ideological enemies out of spite.
I wrote out a hypothesis I imagined in response and then lost it.

In short.

The fundamental difference between Liberals and Conservatives is their perceived relationship with the idea of the West. Both forge their identities against it. But whilst Conservatives embrace it and wish to preserve it - because it's an inherently conservative notion - Liberals reject it - for the same reason. Because of this Conservatives can see themselves in political competition with Muslims. Liberals can't.

If an antagonism against Conservatives might seem to exist it's because Conservatives are the outgroup. To Conservatives - Liberals are too: but it's nowhere near as fundamental. Consider further the fantastic success these groups possess in terms of self-segregation.

---

This also sits perfectly with Marxism where the condition - Western civilisation - contains it's own contradiction.

to an actual Christian these sorts of additions to the faith automatically render it invalid and heretical.
Over half of Catholic cardinals are from developing countries nonetheless.

Despite the proliferation of ethnicised denominations as outlined there's still a considerable Western presence.

It will be interesting though to watch these denomination rise up and redefine what it means to be Christian. Because that's bound to happen.


And when phuckphace says that Justin Trudeau wants Canada to be a caliphate, that is not far off.
There's one million Muslims in Canada. Trudeau wants to take in twenty-five thousand refuges. That's an expansion of the Muslim population by 2.5%. That's an expansion of the Muslim population as a proprtion of the Canadian population by 0.08%.

[Judean Zealot]

I'm going to approach this from a different track. Avicenna seems like a nice dude, not unlike Maimonides and Aquinas.

[Porpoise101]

phuckphace
Muslims invented much of modern economics. Coincidence?😏

[Fixed Pen]

With all respects,this thread is all incomplete without a known Muslim among you who is me.

Plus+Yes,Fixed Pen is the former BrokenPen

[Porpoise101]

With all respects,this thread is all incomplete without a known Muslim among you who is me.

Plus+Yes,Fixed Pen is the former BrokenPen
Welcome back man! It's great to see you back!

So what do you have to say?

[Fixed Pen]

Welcome back man! It's great to see you back!

So what do you have to say?

The question is:What do you guys have to say?

Honestly I have been more lazy than that to go back and read all those long posts in last two pages of this thread.I just saw the title,I just saw the posters,I just saw a portion of what people have said and just decided to sign up once again and see what is going on?

[Porpoise101]

The question is:What do you guys have to say?

Honestly I have been more lazy than that to go back and read all those long posts in last two pages of this thread.I just saw the title,I just saw the posters,I just saw a portion of what people have said and just decided to sign up once again and see what is going on?
Basically, they are saying Muslims are incompatible with the West and that they have backwards beliefs in order to not be accountable for their actions. I have been saying that Muslims are just religious people.

[Jinglebottom]

Welcome back Broken Pen!

[Fixed Pen]

Basically, they are saying Muslims are incompatible with the West and that they have backwards beliefs in order to not be accountable for their actions. I have been saying that Muslims are just religious people.

It all depends on what is going on.During last three months I have been through a very difficult period of my time doubting my religious attitude and even getting pretty close to Autotheism,Atheism,then Pantheism and Spinoza's God,but once again and right now by reading more of history,philosophy,science,theology and physics,I realized that "Monotheism" is the answer to my life.

The actual Monotheism I knew and was more logic than any others was Shia Islamic Monotheism introduced by Masters of its way and also by different enlightened scholars like Ali,Ja'far Sadegh,Jaber Ibn Hayyan,Husayn Ibn Ali ibn Sina,Nasir al-Din Tusi,Baha'a al-Din Ameli,Mullah Sadra Shirazi,and of Modern prominent scholars Allame Tabatabaei and Ayatollah Motahhari and Ayatollah Javadi Amoli and Seyyed Husayn Nasr and Henry Corbin.

I would say West is not compatible with Islamic or even other Monotheistic ideologies rising from Middle East,since the first arrow was shot by powers of west.


Welcome back Broken Pen!

Thanks.

*********

Look people I am not going to stay here for too long.As some of you may know by now I just signed up once again for this thread and am going to go off once again after about one hour later for God knows how much later,maybe even forever.So if you have anything else to say please say otherwise I only can recommend you that if you like we can take this discussion somewhere else except VT and forums like this,like Social Medias or anything else.
Judean Zealot Porpoise101
and others...

[Zbmrnb16]

To lump together all of Islam would be like to lump together all of any other religion. Each individual has their own separate beliefs, and to spread this much hatred towards a religion based off of the ideals of a select few is, for lack of a better phrase, complete bullshit.

[phuckphace]

Because of this Conservatives can see themselves in political competition with Muslims. Liberals can't.

I think the problem lies in the fact that both sides tend to see it as some political competition for votes, and it's compounded by the mainstream right being mostly fake pseudocons.

the Left's view is inane because it essentially equates to sawing off the tree branch you're sitting on, but marketed as a necessary step towards some naive and idealistic arrangement full of dumb assumptions and unnecessary social upheaval. dumb assumptions like "deep down we're all literally the same and given enough greenbacks the Third World will just magically un-learn open defecation and infant rape" and "they won't put a burning tire around my neck, I marched for their rights!"

the "conservatives" see it as a competition for votes and work within that frame because they've abandoned any sense of identity and allowed themselves to be...er...cuckholded into believing that Israelis and Third Worlders having ethnostates is fine but White nations having borders and identities just can't be a thing. their feeble objections to Muslims is largely just culture war signaling (bear in mind these are the same people who fly to Africa and China to adopt babies while passing over native children just down the street, out of shame).

There's one million Muslims in Canada. Trudeau wants to take in twenty-five thousand refuges. That's an expansion of the Muslim population by 2.5%. That's an expansion of the Muslim population as a proprtion of the Canadian population by 0.08%.

for now.

To lump together all of Islam would be like to lump together all of any other religion. Each individual has their own separate beliefs, and to spread this much hatred towards a religion based off of the ideals of a select few is, for lack of a better phrase, complete bullshit.

*didn't read the thread* *commented anyway*

[Porpoise101]

Third Worlders having ethnostates
Third World countries
Ethnostates

Pick one

[phuckphace]

Third World countries
Ethnostates

Pick one

YOU
BAD POSTS
PICK TWO

lol jk brah but if you'd like I can change "Third World" to "non-white places". Japan is certainly not Third World but is an example of a non-white ethnostate that gets a pass because it's non-white. the leftoids do give Israel shit for its polices but significantly less than a white country would.

I guess I need to clarify while I'm at it that I actually just like White people more than I hate Muslims - and you can even replace Muslims with any other group and my opinion is the same. it's a fact that things just straight up work better with Whites running things in White countries, and when they get their hegemon taken away from them you start to see a lot less stability and Moonwalks and a lot more dysfunction and crime and what have you. I'd rather not live like the whites who run Brazil and Mexico (armored cars and private security) but that's exactly where we're headed if Ward Cleaver doesn't get his hegemon back.

[Vlerchan]

[...] dumb assumptions [...]
I'm not arguing that the view of liberal's are right or wrong on this issue. Of course - though - I think the possibility of having a burning tire placed around my neck is wildly overstated*.

I'm arguing that you won't ever be able to form some grand protect-ya-West coalition with Liberals.

---

* Fun-little-fact: Subsaharan Africa has posed the greatest returns on investment and had the strongest growth in GDPpercapita since the mid-2000s.

[...] their feeble objections to Muslims is largely just culture war signaling [...]
This might be true amongst Elites. I would be quite surprised if it's through amongst the rank-and-file.

for now.
I guess that's the thing. I see there as being quite a clear restraints on politicians when it comes to immigration-politics.

In Germany it was an increase of about 1.8% as a proportion of the population. It's now exploring options with regards to sending some (illegally) back to the Turks and setting up safe-zones in Syria. Politically it can't aim to take in any more Muslims though: it hit what seems to be it's upper-bound.

---

Chile also has the same ethnic cleavages as Brazil and Chile is relatively prosperous.

[Porpoise101]

So I'm going to go a little in a different direction. That is the image of Ali. To me he is sometimes depicted in the same way that Christ or Krishna is shown.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/5a8cfcfadb776faa317f3010dc609f5d.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/825ca2e2d4fd1bab9a7432ef24ccceef.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/8751d833e92c41e5358eebad07bafc0a.jpg
Weird, right?

[DriveAlive]

So I'm going to go a little in a different direction. That is the image of Ali. To me he is sometimes depicted in the same way that Christ or Krishna is shown.
image (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/5a8cfcfadb776faa317f3010dc609f5d.jpg)
image (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/825ca2e2d4fd1bab9a7432ef24ccceef.jpg)
image (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/8751d833e92c41e5358eebad07bafc0a.jpg)
Weird, right?

And now VT will get attacked...thanks...

[Porpoise101]

And now VT will get attacked...thanks...
That isn't the prophet Muhammad. It's Ali, the fourth Caliph. He is the one that Shia Muslims look up to the most. I just thought the art styles looked oddly similar.

That's not to say he isn't a highly contentious character in religion and history.

[Judean Zealot]

Someone really needs to find us a theologically informed Muslim

[phuckphace]

I'm not arguing that the view of liberal's are right or wrong on this issue. Of course - though - I think the possibility of having a burning tire placed around my neck is wildly overstated*.

I'd put you out if you were on fire, bro. that's what I'm here for :D

I'm arguing that you won't ever be able to form some grand protect-ya-West coalition with Liberals.

of course not. I never really saw this as a possibility, I just see it as a matter of making liberalism obsolete following the smashing success that properly implemented nationalism is guaranteed to be.

I guess that's the thing. I see there as being quite a clear restraint on politicians when it comes to immigration-politics.

"only" a few million may not seem like much, but remember that they breed a lot and unlike most whites, aren't constrained by economic considerations ("do I have enough income to pop out seven children?"). 2 million today, how many more millions in 15 - 20 years? it only takes a kilo or two of plutonium to flatten a metropolis for the same reason.

[Porpoise101]

Someone really needs to find us a theologically informed Muslim
Yes. I got my hopes up when I saw broken pen, but that isn't happening I guess.

[Vlerchan]

I'd put you out if you were on fire, bro. that's what I'm here for :D
I knew there must be some good beneath all the Nazi.

Appreciated, man.

of course not. I never really saw this as a possibility, I just see it as a matter of making liberalism obsolete following the smashing success that properly implemented nationalism is guaranteed to be.
Question - Is there any country in the world you believe has successfully implemented nationalism?

"only" a few million may not seem like much, but remember that they breed a lot and unlike most whites, aren't constrained by economic considerations ("do I have enough income to pop out seven children?"). 2 million today, how many more millions in 15 - 20 years? it only takes a kilo or two of plutonium to flatten a metropolis for the same reason.
Whilst it's true that Muslims breed at a faster rate than Europeans the difference is widely over-stated.

The birth-rate for Muslims in Europe is around 2.2 per woman. Like with Western Europeans it's fallen below the replacement rate in in more-developed Eastern European Muslim-majority states. Because Muslims aren't immune to issues of incentive.

Expect growth vis-á-vis a falling Christian-European population but there's going to be no population explosion on the back of current trends.

[sqishy]

Someone really needs to find us a theologically informed Muslim

Do you mean that for this thread, or that theologically informed muslims are harder to find than others?
(We should indeed have the former yes.)

[Judean Zealot]

Do you mean that for this thread, or that theologically informed muslims are harder to find than others?
(We should indeed have the former yes.)

Well, both, considering as not there are not many theologically informed English speaking Muslims.

[sqishy]

Well, both, considering as not there are not many theologically informed English speaking Muslims.

Ah yes, English-speaking too.

[phuckphace]

I knew there must be some good beneath all the Nazi.

Appreciated, man.

"He who debates with Nazis should look to it that he himself does not become a Nazi. And if you gaze long into the gas chamber, the gas chamber also gazes into you." -Nietzsche

Question - Is there any country in the world you believe has successfully implemented nationalism?

formerly: the US, Australia (the White Australia policies)

currently: Israel

the above examples weren't quite my Hitlerian flavor of explicit ethnonationalism but still worked out pretty well regardless.

[Judean Zealot]

phuckphace

Israel is far from a nationalist utopia. The notion of civic duty goes largely ignored. Any country suffering from modernism - nihilism is a city built on quicksand.

[Porpoise101]

formerly: the US, Australia (the White Australia policies)

currently: Israel
What about ye olde government of the ROC. Now it's just an island, but Taiwan before being Taiwan seemed pretty nationalist to me. And they are kinda successful because they have held out and carved out an identity for themselves.

I mean they called their leader 'Generalissimo'.

[sqishy]

Any country suffering from modernism - nihilism is a city built on quicksand.

I wouldn't go so far as to see modernism being nihilist.

[Judean Zealot]

I wouldn't go so far as to see modernism being nihilist.

Nihilism is modernism brought to it's natural conclusion. This isn't anything new - Nietzsche and Pound were complaining about this long ago.

[sqishy]

Nihilism is modernism brought to it's natural conclusion. This isn't anything new - Nietzsche and Pound were complaining about this long ago.

I found Nietzsche to have a sort of obsession with POWER which included some rhetorical aspects of how he spoke his ideas, Pound I don't know of though and cannot speak of (but may look into).

I argue that modernism is not nihilist, the material world even is of something still, there is some fundamental view to it all even if some hold that to be money, fashion or technology. Going further, you can argue that it is based on empty goals (progress as an end rather than a means), but even still there is no nihilism as fundamentally a drive to satisfy pleasures and addictions exists - there is something in life which defines it all. There is an order, not a chaos.

For me, nihilism would be more of an encompassing view that nothing matters, not even my social or financial status, and I am depressed at least at the intellectual level. I don't see this sort of void or gaping hole existing in modernism. If we see modernism to be a sort of project that is aiming for a certain goal, we have not reached it yet - the modernist world seems pretty filled with stuff that has some meaning.

(I recognise that this is off topic, perhaps I will dedicate a general thread to nihilism sometime soon.)

I add that it doesn't have to be such a bad thing that we see the world/etc from the point of view of us, rather than of gods/etc (sort of on the 'opposite side' at infinity). I'm not saying I hold an egocentric viewpoint, only saying it should not be assumed to be bad when it is not theocentric.

[Vlerchan]

I agree with Judean Zealot about Nihilism being the natural conclusion of modernism. But I believe we're running on different definitions here.

Modernism is a critique of the pre-modern and pre-Enlightenment era. It's the philosophy of reason and that means rationalism and empiricism.

It's primary function was the critique of the archaic monarchical and ecclesiastical institutions that preceded the advent of nationalism and democratic governance [both of which are fundamentally modernist].

Once the ideologies underpinning these were entirely depleted it turned to the only place left it could: itself. Thus postmodernism is ushered in - and that's what you actually despise - and it begins a frontal assault of the modern: a deconstruction of the principals that birthed it.

[sqishy]

I agree with Judean Zealot about Nihilism being the natural conclusion of modernism. But I believe we're running on different definitions here.

Modernism is a critique of the pre-modern and pre-Enlightenment era. It's the philosophy of reason and that means rationalism and empiricism.

It's primary function was the critique of the archaic monarchical and ecclesiastical institutions that preceded the advent of nationalism and democratic governance [both of which are fundamentally modernist].

Once the ideologies underpinning these were entirely depleted it turned to the only place left it could: itself. Thus postmodernism is ushered in - and that's what you actually despise - and it begins a frontal assault of the modern: a deconstruction of the principals that birthed it.

I was thinking of modernism in the societal sense rather than the philosophical one (taking talking about metaphorical cities and nations), sorry for the bad judgement.

I've got my issues with empiricism for sure, and don't like many aspects of the ideology going on with this modernism too. I'm not so sure that it means it leaves behind a void if it eats itself up though, something has to remain. What about physicalism?

[Vlerchan]

I'm not so sure that it means it leaves behind a void if it eats itself up though, something has to remain.
The self.

Cue Romanticism and a century of utter nonsense philosophy.

[sqishy]

The self.

Cue Romanticism and a century of utter nonsense philosophy.

If we take this, then it is not nihilist, right?
Quite a bad ending which makes sections of the world of philosophy collapse like a cosmological big crunch, I take it, but not nihilist.

(Edit: I also wonder what Exocet would be with this, but he seems to have dropped off the face of VT.)

[Vlerchan]

If we take this, then it is not nihilist, right?
It's not epistemological nihilism but that's self-refuting.

There is a difference between the romantic and the nihilist-otherwise though: The romantic holds steadfast to the belief that he is capable of constructing value in the world of value around him, which is grounded in his own capacity for self-expression. The Nihilist is capable of imposing value on the world but recognises that this value is meaningless and the effort necessarily futile.

Both are corollaries of the criticism of modernism though.

---

I also could be wrong here - waiting for Judean Zealot to get on again. Been a while since I really thought about this stuff.

[sqishy]

It's not epistemological nihilism but that's self-refuting.

Self-refuting perhaps, but not nihilist overall. I similarly hold empiricism to be self-refuting, but it's not nihilistic because of it. Whatever about the state of the viewpoint system after criticism is one thing, being in and adhering to the system is another.



There is a difference between the romantic and the nihilist-otherwise though: The romantic holds steadfast to the belief that he is capable of constructing value in the world of value around him, which is grounded in his own capacity for self-expression. The Nihilist is capable of imposing value on the world but recognises that this value is meaningless and the effort necessarily futile.

Yes; something is doable with purposeful meaning, rather than nothing.



I also could be wrong here - waiting for Judean Zealot to get on again. Been a while since I really thought about this stuff.

I think a general thread on nihilism, and what isn't nihilistic, would be interesting.

[Porpoise101]

(Edit: I also wonder what Exocet would be with this, but he seems to have dropped off the face of VT.)
I think he got frozen. Maybe he has gotten angry over it or something and has not returned.

Not that we need him here to describe his position. He's explained it pretty explicitly before.

[sqishy]

I think he got frozen. Maybe he has gotten angry over it or something and has not returned.

Not that we need him here to describe his position. He's explained it pretty explicitly before.

He was yes, but you're probably right.

I'll look into them.

[Vlerchan]

Self-refuting perhaps, but not nihilist. I similarly hold empiricism to be self-refuting, but it's not nihilistic because of it.
What I mean is that Romanticism and Nihilism diverge considerably when it comes to epistemological issues. But it's broadly recognised the epistemological nihilism is self-refuting and thus considering that in greater detail isn't worth the time. It's not nihilism because it's self-refuting.

I'm also unsure how Empiricism is self-refuting. It just can't be known to be true in it's most assertive and concrete form - that all knowledge is derived from sensory experience. Empiricism as it persists in the social and natural sciences is of a Bayesian orientation though.

I think a general thread on nihilism, and what isn't nihilistic, would be interesting.
Discussing nihilism in general might be fun. If you want you can create a thread and we can continue this discussion there.

He's explained it pretty explicitly before.
If you miss him, anyways, he's only ever a link away.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?offset=0&size=50&sel=site&searchPhrase=islam+terrorism+welfare&sort=recent&type=article&type=video&days=all

[sqishy]

What I mean is that Romanticism and Nihilism diverge considerably when it comes to epistemological issues. But it's broadly recognised the epistemological nihilism is self-refuting and thus considering that in greater detail isn't worth the time. It's not nihilism because it's self-refuting.

Alright.


I'm also unsure how Empiricism is self-refuting. It just can't be known to be true in it's most assertive and concrete form - that all knowledge is derived from sensory experience. Empiricism as it persists in the social and natural sciences is of a Bayesian orientation though.

Whatever about its pervasiveness, I feel it may be lying to itself in some areas where it exists. In a summary, I see it as self-refuting because it says all knowledge is justified through sense experience, but the knowledge isn't in the sense experience bare for you to see. Some 'seed' (at least one) of knowledge or some analogue is needed to start the spiral outward of magnitude and diversity of knowledge justified through XP (I like to have it short like that), which is alright. However, without the seed, it goes as an infinite regress back all the way. You had to know where to look for justifying the knowledge; we don't just infer objects from XP as example. I like Kant for being relevant here (but not a Kantian, least I think).


Discussing nihilism in general might be fun. If you want you can create a thread and we can continue this discussion there.

I will now actually :P . Since it is late and I don't know what to talk about, I'll leave it completely open with nothing of a starting point as OP (seems alright taking the context anyway).

[Judean Zealot]

Vlerchan

You're more or less right with regards to my intent, although I will add that I do not refer to the early enlightenment as 'modernity'. The humanism of Rousseau, for example, is both compatible with and complementary towards Platonic or Aristotelian Scholasticism, by way of natural law theorists such as Grotius, Selden, and Pufendorff.

The modernity I find problematic is that which was introduced with Cartesian skepticism - a rejection of the axioms of reason, (http://www.ditext.com/carroll/tortoise.html)subsequently developed by Kant, perverted by the romantics, and done away with entirely by the absurdists. This trend of divorcing the self from the surrounding universe has resulted in a shift of focus from man's place in the world to man's relation to himself, which in turn has eroded both the popularity and respectability of any doctrine which seeks either duty or truth - the root of all postmodernist depravity.