if i was running for president

[ethan-s]

here is what i would do if i was running for president. believe me, if i was old enough, i would be running, and i would be kicking donald trumps butt.

(this is in order btw)

1- get rid of the iran deal and get our money back.
2- start a audit of all government agencies
3- cut the epa by 90 percent and make it a lobbyist group so that laws actually have to be passed.
4- abolish the IRS, DHS (we have the DOD), dept. of education.
5- start rounding up illegals. the way this works is we get rid of their work permits, their welfare cards, and free cheese. any that dont leave because of that will be deported. once those are gone, they are not allowed to come back. ever. if they come back illegally, the get death.

-6 enlist every able-bodied man, age 17-45 into army reserve/national guard. reserve is the key word here- if they want into full time army, they can get into it.

-7 repeal Ocare.
-8 a comprehensive tax plan of 14.5 % for normal folks, and tariffs of 6% on imports. churches are tax exempt.

-9 penalties for companies that move jobs outside the US.

gotta go. more to come.

[Judean Zealot]

Well, thank God you'll never get anywhere near the presidency...

[Stronk Serb]

I would run with the Truth Party, we promise nothing and fullfil what we say.

[Leprous]

here is what i would do if i was running for president. believe me, if i was old enough, i would be running, and i would be kicking donald trumps butt.

5- start rounding up illegals. the way this works is we get rid of their work permits, their welfare cards, and free cheese. any that dont leave because of that will be deported. once those are gone, they are not allowed to come back. ever. if they come back illegally, the get death.
gotta go. more to come.


Like you guys didn't get there illegaly in the first place. Pretty sure all Americans saying 'illegals' should go don't know where THEY actually came from. You're all Europeans to me.

[West Coast Sheriff]

here is what i would do if i was running for president. believe me, if i was old enough, i would be running, and i would be kicking donald trumps butt.

(this is in order btw)

1- get rid of the iran deal and get our money back.
2- start a audit of all government agencies
3- cut the epa by 90 percent and make it a lobbyist group so that laws actually have to be passed.
4- abolish the IRS, DHS (we have the DOD), dept. of education.
5- start rounding up illegals. the way this works is we get rid of their work permits, their welfare cards, and free cheese. any that dont leave because of that will be deported. once those are gone, they are not allowed to come back. ever. if they come back illegally, the get death.

-6 enlist every able-bodied man, age 17-45 into army reserve/national guard. reserve is the key word here- if they want into full time army, they can get into it.

-7 repeal Ocare.
-8 comprehensive tax plan of 14.5 % for normal folks, and tariffs of 6% on imports. churches are tax exempt.

-9 penalties for companies that move jobs outside the US.

gotta go. more to come.

#1 and #9 I agree with for sure. I won't refute those
#8 and #7 aren't bad but, your tax plan might not be enough. I think Obama care is a disaster but, you need to come up with a new health care plan. Just repealing what we have now won't work.
#2 you just can't do that. No. It would be a waste of money. Who's going to pay for that? Government is. Who's auditing the agency? Probably a government agency #facepalm
#4 you do realize, that many jobs will be lost if those are extinguished. The department of education is very important. We need education. Education is the way out of poverty.
#6 Adults already sign up for the draft you know. You sound like a dictator by doing this. You can't enlist everyone into a reserve. Stop.
#5 Stop. Yes, We should deport those who commit crimes. Yes, We should tighten border security. But, Many of these people are good hardworking people that contribute to our economy.

Sorry if this came out rude, I don't mean to be but, you sound like a young Donald Trump

[Exocet]

Some ideas I would propose if I was running for president.


-Reduce the state spendings (And so the deficits.),so that we don't spend more than what we earn (Defence,security,health and culture budgets preserved.) and try to find how we could get more revenues without increasing taxes.
-Slash by 90% the immigration funds and foreign aid.
-Evict all foreigners convicted of ("minor") crimes in France + all illegal immigrants.
-Referendum about if we should bring back the death penalty. (Tell the EU human rightists to f*** off. )
-Impose quotas on immigration to France. (10-15.000 new immigrants/years,the most skilled,not the trashiests,and priority given to the Europeans.)
-Impose permanent controls on our borders.
-Impose heavy taxes on foreign trucks using our roads.
-Increase defence spending to a minimum of 2% of the GDP and creation of a national guard.
-Get out of NATO.
-Increase our political,economical and military relations/cooperations with Russia,China and other emerging powers.
-Pressure the EU to give up the TTIP.
-Reduce the part of the nuclear of our production of electricity. (Funding more green energies projects.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ethan-s What do you mean by (Iran) "get our money back". Did they steal you something ?

[Vlerchan]

Sorry if this came out rude, I don't mean to be but, you sound like a young Donald Trump
Honestly seems much closer to Ted Cruz to me.

---

This also reminds me I should be lobbying hard for a mock election running in co-ordination.

[West Coast Sheriff]

Honestly seems much closer to Ted Cruz to me.

---

This also reminds me I should be lobbying hard for a mock election running in co-ordination.

President Obama says they are basically the same, Cruz just phrases things differently. I see differences between the too though

[Vlerchan]

President Obama says they are basically the same, Cruz just phrases things differently. I see differences between the too though
Cruz is actually more radical. Though is also supportive of free trade.

[phuckphace]

Ethan don't think it be like it is, but it do

[kylem1229]

Well, thank God you'll never get anywhere near the presidency...

I didnt want to be the first to say it....but i have to agree

[Porpoise101]

I swear you are trolling. This is so far out I don't even know where to start. Look if anything you "triggered" me.

[West Coast Sheriff]

Cruz is actually more radical. Though is also supportive of free trade.

What you call radical, I call strong haha, I lean to the right lol.

I dislike trump, not because of what he says, but, because I think he lacks a consistent conservative record. I think the Donald is deep down a liberal and just says stuff to get voters. I also dislike how he can't back what he says. So, Cruz is definitely more conservative.

[lliam]

gotta go. more to come.

Hey, Donald T., is that your fake account on VT? :D

[phuckphace]

What you call radical, I call strong haha, I lean to the right lol.

I dislike trump, not because of what he says, but, because I think he lacks a consistent conservative record. I think the Donald is deep down a liberal and just says stuff to get voters. I also dislike how he can't back what he says. So, Cruz is definitely more conservative.

Cruz is a sinister neocon hack, not even close

that smarmy contrived shtick of his ("let's begin with a prayer") gives me the creeps for real yo. he probably guffaws into his sleeve every time he has to mention Gawd for the benefit of the rubes

[Uniquemind]

Cruz is a sinister neocon hack, not even close

that smarmy contrived shtick of his ("let's begin with a prayer") gives me the creeps for real yo. he probably guffaws into his sleeve every time he has to mention Gawd for the benefit of the rubes


Cruz's old college crowd described him as a type of person that tries to steal or at least sleep with his friends girlfriend. Is manipulative and is power hungry.

Not the kind of person I would support. I prefer Trump to Cruz and that's saying a lot.


However I know what I would do if I ran for President. But to be honest if prefer sitting on the Supreme Court than a President I like analyzing and giving definitive answers to problems.


I would define however what violations of an "oath of office" is constitutionally when it comes to Congress or any one party delaying or leveraging basic government functionality as political leverage tools to gain their way on single wedge issues or even a particular narrative stance on the media as unconstitutional.

That's part of the cause of polarization in Congress. If my teachers don't accept procrastinators, why should US Congressional lawmakers be procrastinators?

Have an issue hold the deliberation, vote, give a conclusion.

Done move on to the next assignment.


At a Certain point inaction I think becomes unconstitutional and a violation of the oath of office as a senator or member of the house.

[ethan-s]

Like you guys didn't get there illegaly in the first place. Pretty sure all Americans saying 'illegals' should go don't know where THEY actually came from. You're all Europeans to me.

that is a very weak argument. last i checked, there were no laws about who could come to the new world.


#1 and #9 I agree with for sure. I won't refute those
#8 and #7 aren't bad but, your tax plan might not be enough. I think Obama care is a disaster but, you need to come up with a new health care plan. Just repealing what we have now won't work.
#2 you just can't do that. No. It would be a waste of money. Who's going to pay for that? Government is. Who's auditing the agency? Probably a government agency #facepalm
#4 you do realize, that many jobs will be lost if those are extinguished. The department of education is very important. We need education. Education is the way out of poverty.
#6 Adults already sign up for the draft you know. You sound like a dictator by doing this. You can't enlist everyone into a reserve. Stop.
#5 Stop. Yes, We should deport those who commit crimes. Yes, We should tighten border security. But, Many of these people are good hardworking people that contribute to our economy.

Sorry if this came out rude, I don't mean to be but, you sound like a young Donald Trump


as far as healthcare; everyone has a retirement account. with my plan, everyone will also have a health account OR the must go with a private insurance company. medicare will take care of the rest.

#4; education is a disaster. yes, it is very important. but it needs to be state/city level.

the way we audit the fed is to have i committee appointed for this purpose. any abuse found will mean that that agency gets that much less money.

yes, they do sign up for draft, BUT, the constitution calls for a well regulated militia. keep in mind these folks are on reserve. 99% will never see war- that is what non- reservists are for. lets say Russia,china, and north Korea all attack the us. thats like 400,000 men. what would we do? call out the reserve, a force of at least 1 million men. we would kick their butts.

illegal immigration. if you want fairness (dont we all?) we would get rid of these people. it is not fair to the folks who came legally if illegals just walk across the border. also, do you not believe in sovereignty? these people steal jobs from true americans. they are all leaving.

btw, you didnt sound rude. i like people asking questions and challenging me on things.:metal:


I swear you are trolling. This is so far out I don't even know where to start. Look if anything you "triggered" me.

im sorry, not to sound rude, but that is not my problem. if you are offended, go ahead and tell me about it. but in the long run, it is your problem that you are offended.

[Vlerchan]

get rid of the iran deal and get our money back.
I have no idea why you don't care about European energy diversification or security.

Nonetheless having to tolerate a rapidly modernising power that is doomed to being second-rate in the medium term because of economic and demographic factors is no real cost.

start a audit of all government agencies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Accountability_Office

abolish the IRS, DHS (we have the DOD), dept. of education.
I presume the first point refers to abolishing income taxation. You'll need to suggest as to what will plug the whole.

The reason the DHS exists alongside the DOD is because both form different functions. You can place all the DHS functions under the DOD but that would simply make it less accountable.

I presume the funding from the eliminated DoE would be channelled towards departments in-states.

start rounding up illegals.
Logistical and economic nightmare. It would be hugely expensive to do so and would leave large recession-inducing holes in various regional economies.

You can take whatever measures to stop illegal immigrants entering the state but killing foreign citizens probably isn't the most diplomatic approach.

these people steal jobs from true americans.
Offer them amnesty and let them compete on equal terms. Though illegals tend to work in areas where there's a chronic undersupply of americans.

enlist every able-bodied man, age 17-45 into army reserve/national guard. reserve is the key word here- if they want into full time army, they can get into it.
I can understand enlisting certain subsets of the population into the armed forces but there's no added benefits - and a lot of costs - in doing it with such a group as defined.

8 a comprehensive tax plan of 14.5 % for normal folks, and tariffs of 6% on imports. churches are tax exempt.
You'll need to expand on the tax suggestion. What's normal folks?

I also wrote this post (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2025562) on why I don't like tariffs.

penalties for companies that move jobs outside the US.
I find this petty and unuseful. Outsourcing tends to result in higher levels of insourcing.

as far as healthcare; everyone has a retirement account. with my plan, everyone will also have a health account OR the must go with a private insurance company. medicare will take care of the rest.
Is there an issue with single-payer which avoids [1] incomplete markets [2] unnecessary replication of services and a reduced spread of fixed costs [3] information asymmetries in general: a. supplier-induced demand b.moral hazard and c. adverse selection in particular.

It seems to result in lower costs and better outcomes where attempted.

[Leprous]

ethan-s You arrive there, kill the locals and claim the land is yours, how is that right?

[Porpoise101]

lets say Russia,china, and north Korea all attack the us. thats like 400,000 men. what would we do? call out the reserve, a force of at least 1 million men. we would kick their butts.
Ok so I'm ready to start disemboweling your points I guess. I'll start here. Ok, so North Korea is the only likely one to attack. Remember, if anyone attacks we have NATO on our side at least and maybe we will get more support by cajoling other nations. China and Russia wouldn't attack us because China depends on us and Russia would be signing it's suicide note. North Korea might, but they are crazy. Their buddy China is even turning it's back on them. We will probably see a united Korea in our life. BTW, each nation you listed has 600,000+ people in just the army (not counting air and naval divisions).
Source:http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/29-largest-armies-in-the-world.html

[West Coast Sheriff]

ethan-s

You can't have education brought to a city level. Some cities won't be able to pay for it others, will have a lot to pay and it's not ensuring an equal level or oppurtunity.

State level is fine but there are things the U.S. Department of education does.
Need based financial aid is given by the government. How are people supposed to pay for college?

Yeah, we should try to localize things more but, the U.S. Government is responsible for many things.

[ethan-s]

I have no idea why you don't care about European energy diversification or security.

1Nonetheless having to tolerate a rapidly modernising power that is doomed to being second-rate in the medium term because of economic and demographic factors is no real cost.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Accountability_Office


2I presume the first point refers to abolishing income taxation. You'll need to suggest as to what will plug the whole.

3The reason the DHS exists alongside the DOD is because both form different functions. You can place all the DHS functions under the DOD but that would simply make it less accountable.

4I presume the funding from the eliminated DoE would be channelled towards departments in-states.


5Logistical and economic nightmare. It would be hugely expensive to do so and would leave large recession-inducing holes in various regional economies.

6You can take whatever measures to stop illegal immigrants entering the state but killing foreign citizens probably isn't the most diplomatic approach.


7Offer them amnesty and let them compete on equal terms. Though illegals tend to work in areas where there's a chronic undersupply of americans.


8I can understand enlisting certain subsets of the population into the armed forces but there's no added benefits - and a lot of costs - in doing it with such a group as defined.


9You'll need to expand on the tax suggestion. What's normal folks?

I also wrote this post (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2025562) on why I don't like tariffs.


I find this petty and unuseful. Outsourcing tends to result in higher levels of insourcing.


10Is there an issue with single-payer which avoids [1] incomplete markets [2] unnecessary replication of services and a reduced spread of fixed costs [3] information asymmetries in general: a. supplier-induced demand b.moral hazard and c. adverse selection in particular.

It seems to result in lower costs and better outcomes where attempted.

1) Europe is not my concern. if they have energy issues, they can ask for help.
2)no, the entire IRS is going. the dept of the treasury will take its place.
3)the problem with the dhs is that it is way to powerful. they aid in armed raids on law-abiding people.

4)what about the DOE?

5) the thing about illegals is that they feed off the government t*t. they dont pay taxes, and they take tax-funded housing and food. they steal jobs from the local citizens. getting rid of them will free up cash for other things. it will get more americans off welfare and into the workforce.

6) look, desperate times call for desperate measures. it is their choice if they die. if they just leave, awesome. if they are deported, great. BUT if they come back illegally, then they will get death so that we dont have to support them.( not to mention death is a deterrent)

7)wadda you mean 'equal terms?' we offer them equal terms and they turn them down. we say come here like a normal immigrant, and they say no, ill just sneak in like a mouse. with all due respect, your point is moot.:eek:

8) i dont know about your state, but my state constitution calls for what i have said. the federal constitution also calls for a militia, i.e national guard.

9)ok, so what is wrong with insourcing? btw, normal folks are the working class, the business owners and workers.

10) the thing about single payer is that it simply does not work. who funds it? taxpayers? why should i fund that guy who has 100k medical expenses instead of saving for when i have that condition?

i hope this answers your questions. keep em coming!

ethan-s

You can't have education brought to a city level. Some cities won't be able to pay for it others, will have a lot to pay and it's not ensuring an equal level or oppurtunity.

State level is fine but there are things the U.S. Department of education does.
Need based financial aid is given by the government. How are people supposed to pay for college?

Yeah, we should try to localize things more but, the U.S. Government is responsible for many things.

dammit. i meant county or district. sheriff, go ask your great-grandparents or your oldest living relative about what school was like when they were a kid. they will probably tell you about how great their teachers were, about the one room school. of course, we dont have a one room schools anymore. but, there are things we can fix. :yes: and how we do that is up to the states. the thing is, we will have more money to give to the states as we cut other things.

Double post merged, please use the edit button or multiquote feature instead. ~ Mike/ImCoolBeans

[Chapperz16]

that is a very weak argument. last i checked, there were no laws about who could come to the new world.



as far as healthcare; everyone has a retirement account. with my plan, everyone will also have a health account OR the must go with a private insurance company. medicare will take care of the rest.

#4; education is a disaster. yes, it is very important. but it needs to be state/city level.

the way we audit the fed is to have i committee appointed for this purpose. any abuse found will mean that that agency gets that much less money.

yes, they do sign up for draft, BUT, the constitution calls for a well regulated militia. keep in mind these folks are on reserve. 99% will never see war- that is what non- reservists are for. lets say Russia,china, and north Korea all attack the us. thats like 400,000 men. what would we do? call out the reserve, a force of at least 1 million men. we would kick their butts.

illegal immigration. if you want fairness (dont we all?) we would get rid of these people. it is not fair to the folks who came legally if illegals just walk across the border. also, do you not believe in sovereignty? these people steal jobs from true americans. they are all leaving.

btw, you didnt sound rude. i like people asking questions and challenging me on things.:metal:




im sorry, not to sound rude, but that is not my problem. if you are offended, go ahead and tell me about it. but in the long run, it is your problem that you are offended.


Haha you really believe that if Russia, China and NK attacked the US, they would only use 400,000 men? Russia can harness a potential 2 million soldiers plus probably a half a million more if the motherland was threatened. China has the larges army in terms of manpower in the world and is gaining technological superiority whilst NK holds crude but effective tank units which gained a lot of experience from the Korean war. I'm sorry but if those 3 countries attacked you at once, you would be finished despite your 'powerful' military.

[Porpoise101]

Haha you really believe that if Russia, China and NK attacked the US, they would only use 400,000 men? Russia can harness a potential 2 million soldiers plus probably a half a million more if the motherland was threatened. China has the larges army in terms of manpower in the world and is gaining technological superiority whilst NK holds crude but effective tank units which gained a lot of experience from the Korean war. I'm sorry but if those 3 countries attacked you at once, you would be finished despite your 'powerful' military.

I think we couldn't win. We could hold them off at best because of the sheer distance and our Navy+Air Force (keep in mind most of China's military are poorly-trained reserves and are not fit to fight). And if nuclear weapons are brought out, no one will win. The chance they would attack us is slim, except NK which is erratic. So it's not even worth ramping up funding for.

As an aside, what is up with the IRS antipathy? Sure they tax us, but it's underfunded and overburdened. If anything it needs support.

[Vlerchan]

Europe is not my concern. if they have energy issues, they can ask for help.
Your NATO allies are and most of them live in the death-grip of the Russian gas-industry. You're contributing to a weakened situation vis-a-vis regional competitors.

no, the entire IRS is going. the dept of the treasury will take its place.

Would all it's powers be divested to the Treasury?

the problem with the dhs is that it is way to powerful. they aid in armed raids on law-abiding people.
That's because statute allows them to. Limit the powers granted to them through statute.

The reason this is valuable is because it allows for a more efficient service.

what about the DOE?
Is the funding being divested to state's authorities. If the federal government doesn't allocate the same funds to the state's authorities then it will result in an unequal allocation of educational funding and thus unequal outcomes.

I also feel a federal authority is good for co-ordinating state's efforts and dealing with engagements amongst and between states.

they dont pay taxes, and they take tax-funded housing and food.
While unauthorized immigrants worked and contributed
as much as $13 billion in payroll taxes to the OASDI
program in 2010, only about $1 billion in benefit payments
during 2010 are attributable to unauthorized
work. Thus, we estimate that earnings by unauthorized
immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security
financial status generally, and that this effect contributed
roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the
program for 2010. We estimate that future years will
experience a continuation of this positive impact on the
trust funds

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/NOTES/pdf_notes/note151.pdf

they steal jobs from the local citizens.
Like I just said: illegal immigrants tend to work in sectors with a chronic undersupply of U.S. workers.

getting rid of them will free up cash for other things.
Just to emphasise: it will open up a 12 billion dollar shortfall in net revenue.

It will also open up hole's in regional economies that would probably induce recessions.

it will get more americans off welfare and into the workforce.
I presume you've read this somewhere. I would appreciate the source.

look, desperate times call for desperate measures. it is their choice if they die. if they just leave, awesome. if they are deported, great. BUT if they come back illegally, then they will get death so that we dont have to support them.( not to mention death is a deterrent)
I'm incredibly sceptical that it's that desperate.

I'll also emphasise that I'm against allowing Illegal Immigrants into the U.S. I just don't believe it's feasible to deport the current stock for previously expressed economic reasons and I don't believe putting them through exorbitantly expensive trials is optimal when there's other options that haven't been accessed yet.

wadda you mean 'equal terms?'
I mean they'll compete with people from the U.S. in formal labour markets and thus be unable to undercut them.

we offer them equal terms and they turn them down. we say come here like a normal immigrant, and they say no, ill just sneak in like a mouse. with all due respect, your point is moot.
Please go read U.S. immigration law. It's incredibly difficult to access a visa once you account for the numbers that chase the limited supply that does exist.

You also misunderstood the point. The point I was making was that it would be more productive to just mark this down as a bad two decades in terms of border control and implement further measures that can constrain the flow heading into the future.

i dont know about your state, but my state constitution calls for what i have said. the federal constitution also calls for a militia, i.e national guard.
Please quote the text of your state's constitution. Thank you.

The federal constitution also doesn't call for conscription. I'm aware of no Justice or legal scholar that supports that interpretation.

ok, so what is wrong with insourcing?
Nothing. It's great. Free Trade is great in general.

btw, normal folks are the working class, the business owners and workers.
In the U.S. most working class people pay next-to-no income taxation already.

he thing about single payer is that it simply does not work. who funds it? taxpayers? why should i fund that guy who has 100k medical expenses instead of saving for when i have that condition?
Yes. Taxpayers fund it.

You should also contribute because it averages out at you needing to pay less.

Please also address the specific issues I raised in relation to the private health insurance market. The U.S. has some of the highest administration costs in the world - shocking when it's considered that the state administrates for single-payer funds - and in-large it's down to the factors I mentioned.

---

For reference the biggest issue I see with the school system in the U.S. is that no-one seems to value school teachers. In Ireland schoolteachers are some of the most respected people in the community.

[West Coast Sheriff]

dammit. i meant county or district. sheriff, go ask your great-grandparents or your oldest living relative about what school was like when they were a kid. they will probably tell you about how great their teachers were, about the one room school. of course, we dont have a one room schools anymore. but, there are things we can fix. :yes: and how we do that is up to the states. the thing is, we will have more money to give to the states as we cut other things.

My grandparents were children of illegal Mexican immigrants (basically anchor babies) ....

[ethan-s]

anchor babies are allowed. the constitution says.

[Chapperz16]

I think we couldn't win. We could hold them off at best because of the sheer distance and our Navy+Air Force (keep in mind most of China's military are poorly-trained reserves and are not fit to fight). And if nuclear weapons are brought out, no one will win. The chance they would attack us is slim, except NK which is erratic. So it's not even worth ramping up funding for.

As an aside, what is up with the IRS antipathy? Sure they tax us, but it's underfunded and overburdened. If anything it needs support.

Keep in mind that during WW2, most of the Russian Army was poorly trained but they still win the war. China has numbers which means a lot. A famous quote states that to have peace, one must prepare for war which nearly every country is doing.

[Porpoise101]

Keep in mind that during WW2, most of the Russian Army was poorly trained but they still win the war. China has numbers which means a lot. A famous quote states that to have peace, one must prepare for war which nearly every country is doing.
That is true, but the Russians had equipment as well. I'm not saying that numbers are unimportant, but the Chinese military doesn't even have a proper chain of command. That means land-air-sea attacks are less coordinated and efficient. The one thing they do have to their advantage is their cyberwarfare capabilities. The US is totally unprepared for that.

[Chapperz16]

Whoa bro I don't know if you've been keeping up-to-date with militaristic advances of China but they are organised mate. They are a lot different from the old army of the 1970s; a lot has changed.

[Porpoise101]

Whoa bro I don't know if you've been keeping up-to-date with militaristic advances of China but they are organised mate. They are a lot different from the old army of the 1970s; a lot has changed.
Forgive me, they apparently reformed their army structure earlier this year.

[Chapperz16]

No worries man, I'm a bit of a war nut

[ethan-s]

ethan-s You arrive there, kill the locals and claim the land is yours, how is that right?

your point is invalid. :D the 'locals' got here first, yes, but they came here from who knows were.

[Leprous]

your point is invalid. :D the 'locals' got here first, yes, but they came here from who knows were.

They were already there. Point is, rounding up all illegals is hypocrit. You guys arrived their like illegals, not the locals.

Also, where do you on plan on sending them and other illegals?

[Kahn]

ethan-s You arrive there, kill the locals and claim the land is yours, how is that right?

This argument is so silly when one considers the geopolitical implications of the time period you're talking about. What were the British, Spanish, and French colonists to do upon their arrival to the New World? Throw away their old way of life, their old understanding of society, for the primitive Native American way of life?

On the topic of American Manifest Destiny, we won this land by right of blood and conquest. The civilization(s) we shattered will never return to the forefront of society. The Natives traded their land away for trinkets and gold, but they weren't oblivious to what they were doing, like so many people like to think. Many act as though we were taking candy from a baby when trading for land but in reality, American Indians were continuously involved in free market trade situations before and after European contact. They just hadn't developed an idea of land ownership such as ours. As we grew and their numbers dwindled, we expanded, appropriately so, in my opinion.

We were unequivocally more powerful and I don't think any of us ought to feel bad because we were born into the side that came out on top, to be frank.

Point is, rounding up all illegals is hypocrit. You guys arrived their like illegals, not the locals.

Also, where do you on plan on sending them and other illegals?

I agree with this sentiment, however. I think uprooting eleven million lives will get us nowhere. The Trail of Tears involved only 16,000 Cherokee Indian. Attempting to deport eleven million individuals over a short period of time (~ 4 years) would be reckless. Were such a plan implemented I'd imagine they'd send them back to wherever they emigrated from.

I like the idea of granting amnesty to law abiding illegals who simply want a better life for themselves or their family. Illegals with a criminal record or illegals who refuse to pay taxes don't deserve the chance and should be deported.

[phuckphace]

to take marb121's silly ass argument to its silly ass conclusion, nobody has a "right" to be anywhere since the entire human race originally migrated out of Africa

indigenous Americans originally got here over the Bering land-bridge, as you'll recall

I like the idea of granting amnesty to law abiding illegals who simply want a better life for themselves or their family. Illegals with a criminal record or illegals who refuse to pay taxes don't deserve the chance and should be deported.

by definition someone who arrived here illegally and takes money under the table isn't "law-abiding." it's no accident that a hefty percentage of Trump's foreign-born supporters strongly resent a free pass given to illegals when they themselves had to spend years and lots of effort to obtain a visa through the legal channels. my Moroccan coworker, for example, shares this sentiment (although he supports Bernie over Trump).

if we're doing this for illegals "who just want a better life" we might as well let poor shoplifters off the hook for stealing food out of "necessity" instead of getting a job and paying for it like the rest of us have to. when you start down this road the law quickly becomes meaningless

[Kahn]

by definition someone who arrived here illegally and takes money under the table isn't "law-abiding."

This is quite obviously a miscommunication on my part. Law abiding individuals who immigrated here illegally, seeking refuge from the cartel conflicts in Mexico, should be given a chance to prove their circumstances, were a mass deportation plan enacted, in my opinion.

It's no accident that a hefty percentage of Trump's foreign-born supporters strongly resent a free pass given to illegals when they themselves had to spend years and lots of effort to obtain a visa through the legal channels. my Moroccan coworker, for example, shares this sentiment (although he supports Bernie over Trump).

Fairness matters, but the eleven million plus Mexicans who've fled their narco-state and who are living and working here, likely don't care about the morality of immigration (to my dissatisfaction). They still deserve to be treated with dignity if they're good, reasonable people. They might've broken the law to enter the country but for those who are doing well for themselves, for those who are contributing, we should try to lift these individuals up, rather than tear them down.

The problem is too large to warrant heavily coercive action. Though I do agree the deportation of jobless, or criminal illegals.

if we're doing this for illegals "who just want a better life" we might as well let poor shoplifters off the hook for stealing food out of "necessity" instead of getting a job and paying for it like the rest of us have to. when you start down this road the law quickly becomes meaningless

Although I understand the point, I think the comparison between shoplifter and illegal migrant shouldn't be made. Too many complexities play into the motivations of the perpetrators of a crime, and there's likely far more at stake for an individual who uprooted their life once already to cross the border, than for some petty thief.

What, in your mind, is the best solution to the immigration problem?

[Porpoise101]

seeking refuge from the cartel conflicts in Mexico It's a shame we often forget about how terrible it is down there. In some cases, the conflict is as bad as the one in Syria, but it's not treated as such by the media.

[ethan-s]

They were already there. Point is, rounding up all illegals is hypocrit. You guys arrived their like illegals, not the locals.

Also, where do you on plan on sending them and other illegals?

how do you know that when they came here there wernt already people here who they drove out?

and FYI im 1/16 cherokee indian.

[Leprous]

how do you know that when they came here there wernt already people here who they drove out?

and FYI im 1/16 cherokee indian.

I know because most people with some basic knowlegde of history know it. And if you're 1/16th cherokee you should know too.

[Vlerchan]

The Natives traded their land away for trinkets and gold, but they weren't oblivious to what they were doing, like so many people like to think.
The Natives weren't a homogeneous population and that native-settler interactions changed over time. In some cases it was peaceful - in others based on coercion - or manipulation.

I more-or-less agree that the application of modern day standards to the actions of the earliest settlers is un-useful though that's not to claim I favour restitution.

---

You also interested in law - right? - so Johnson v. M’Intosh [1823] might be a case to research.

I know because most people with some basic knowlegde of history know it.
Well most people are wrong. Native American's are descended from a number of migratory waves (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v488/n7411/full/nature11258.html) and continuously displaced each other [Like what happened with the Paleo-Eskimos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Eskimo)].

and FYI im 1/16 cherokee indian.
Do you have black friends too?

[Kahn]

The Natives weren't a homogeneous population

I'm aware of the varied cultures of the tribes. For the sake of discussion I was generalizing, which I shall try to avoid doing henceforth.

And that native-settler interactions changed over time. In some cases it was peaceful - in others based on coercion - or manipulation.

I'm also aware that my ancestors treated different tribes, differently, based on the circumstances set before them. Not every tribe lost their land due to trade- not every tribe lost their land to slaughter. Again, I generalized for the sake of discussion.

I more-or-less agree that the application of modern day standards to the actions of the earliest settlers is un-useful though that's not to claim I favour restitution.

Care to expand?

You also interested in law - right? - so Johnson v. M’Intosh [1823] might be a case to research.

Very interested. I'll read about it now, thank you for the suggestion.

[Porpoise101]

Well most people are wrong. Native American's are descended from a number of migratory waves (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v488/n7411/full/nature11258.html) and continuously displaced each other [Like what happened with the Paleo-Eskimos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Eskimo)].
This is actually well-attested. I went out to San Antonio during the summer and they have these old Spanish missions. It was really a commune with a militia and farms and the life was not terrible. Without the Spanish, the vicious Apache raiders would have destroyed many agrarian communities. I'm not saying Spanish colonisation was good, as it brought disease and later became more oppressive, but in some cases it may been better.

[Vlerchan]

Care to expand?
I don't see the sense in holding ancient civilisations to a standard that emerged in the last number of decades. If we're going to judge people-past then we should judge them to the standards of the peers.

In essence: Expecting them to conform to what's historically a quite exceptional set of ethical values is absurd.

[Kahn]

It's a shame we often forget about how terrible it is down there. In some cases, the conflict is as bad as the one in Syria, but it's not treated as such by the media.

I'd like to see us focus more resources on curbing the South American/Central American conflicts, rather than on the Syrian/Middle Eastern conflicts.

[Arkansasguy]

here is what i would do if i was running for president. believe me, if i was old enough, i would be running, and i would be kicking donald trumps butt.

(this is in order btw)

1- get rid of the iran deal and get our money back.
2- start a audit of all government agencies
3- cut the epa by 90 percent and make it a lobbyist group so that laws actually have to be passed.
4- abolish the IRS, DHS (we have the DOD), dept. of education.
5- start rounding up illegals. the way this works is we get rid of their work permits, their welfare cards, and free cheese. any that dont leave because of that will be deported. once those are gone, they are not allowed to come back. ever. if they come back illegally, the get death.

-6 enlist every able-bodied man, age 17-45 into army reserve/national guard. reserve is the key word here- if they want into full time army, they can get into it.

-7 repeal Ocare.
-8 a comprehensive tax plan of 14.5 % for normal folks, and tariffs of 6% on imports. churches are tax exempt.

-9 penalties for companies that move jobs outside the US.

gotta go. more to come.

I agree with most of this.

Clergy should also be exempted from the draft though.

[ethan-s]

The Natives weren't a homogeneous population and that native-settler interactions changed over time. In some cases it was peaceful - in others based on coercion - or manipulation.

I more-or-less agree that the application of modern day standards to the actions of the earliest settlers is un-useful though that's not to claim I favour restitution.

---

You also interested in law - right? - so Johnson v. M’Intosh [1823] might be a case to research.


Well most people are wrong. Native American's are descended from a number of migratory waves (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v488/n7411/full/nature11258.html) and continuously displaced each other [Like what happened with the Paleo-Eskimos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Eskimo)].


Do you have black friends too?

yes. lots. and i love them!:D

I agree with most of this.

Clergy should also be exempted from the draft though.

OK, i guess thats fine...

I know because most people with some basic knowledge of history know it. And if you're 1/16th Cherokee you should know too.

are you a democrat? i think you are.

i have read many texts on how the Americans displaced all the Indians, and i agree, it was not a right thing to do. but, whats done is done. have you not heard of conquest?

[Porpoise101]

are you a democrat? i think you are
No he isn't... Not everyone is from the US on this website. This character is from the country of Belgium. So he is either a closet Dutchman or a closet Frenchman if he is a native to the area.

But yeah... he's a lefty based on his positions

[TonyJoe]

Well, thank God you'll never get anywhere near the presidency...

HAHAHAHAHAHA I spent like 20 minutes laughing at this. Good job.

[Judean Zealot]

HAHAHAHAHAHA I spent like 20 minutes laughing at this. Good job.

I'm glad I made you smile... but I wasn't trying to be funny! :P