Charging for water - Ireland Fights Back

[mahony0509]

A massive topic here at the moment, as we near the Parliamentary Elections on 26 February is the water tax. Thousands of meters have been installed in houses around the country with workers facing major opposition and violence from those who don't want them. On Saturday, over 100,000 anti water and austerity protesters from Sinn Féin, Social Democrats , Anti Austerity Alliance (people before profit) and the Independents took to the streets of Dublin city centre to have a final say before the election this Friday. This problem isn't simply just about water however. Ireland is suffering from massive homelessness problems as housing has been cut and the health services are in tatters.

I want to hear your opinion on this and whether you guys have water charges or not.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/thousands-march-against-water-charges-but-its-about-more-than-that-721559.html

[Judean Zealot]

Does Ireland have limited fresh water supply? I would imagine yes, which makes me understand why the government wouldn't want people wasting it.

[mahony0509]

Does Ireland have limited fresh water supply? I would imagine yes, which makes me understand why the government wouldn't want people wasting it.

We have multiple fresh water treatment plants, and we're surrounded by an ocean. So not really limited.

[Hyper]

So paying for water is a novel idea for ye lads? I can understand the agony of any kind of taxing but fresh water is a limited resource.

Water treatment plants AFAIK could not cover a countries need for fresh water, even a small ones.

[Judean Zealot]

We have multiple fresh water treatment plants, and we're surrounded by an ocean. So not really limited.

So I found this National Geographic (http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/20/in-ireland-water-will-no-longer-be-free/) article from two and a half years ago which seems to pin the shortage on both poor logistics and a far higher demand than most other places, with the latter more significant than the former. So, not being intimately familiar with the Irish government's finances I would tentatively lean towards the side that this is a good thing. I would imagine that the government should invest that revenue into desalination, and, proportionate to the amount of infrastructure they build up decrease the tax rate, to the ideal point of nil.
Hyper

35% of Israel's drinking water comes from desalination, and I imagine we will continue to raise the percentage. While we can't fully cover our needs, we can significantly reduce shortage. Ireland also has far more coast than Israel, so they should be able to, with government attention, build more plants there. I don't know if the budget allows for it, but at the very least the tax revenue ought to go towards alternative supplies.

[mahony0509]

So I found this National Geographic (http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/20/in-ireland-water-will-no-longer-be-free/) article from two and a half years ago which seems to pin the shortage on both poor logistics and a far higher demand than most other places, with the latter more significant than the former. So, not being intimately familiar with the Irish government's finances I would tentatively lean towards the side that this is a good thing. I would imagine that the government should invest that revenue into desalination, and, proportionate to the amount of infrastructure they build up decrease the tax rate, to the ideal point of nil.

Considering there has been 0% improvement and massive cuts in other sectors aswell as heavily taxing the poor and not the wealthy, it doesn't seem so. Our health service is on the verge of collapse as it is.

[Hyper]

We used to have free water here... But we also used to have the Soviet Union.

Remember kids free water = communism!

I didn't know there are any European countries with free water still or any other country for that matter.

[Judean Zealot]

Considering there has been 0% improvement and massive cuts in other sectors aswell as heavily taxing the poor and not the wealthy, it doesn't seem so. Our health service is on the verge of collapse as it is.

So it's just a means to raise revenue? I would like to hear what Vlerchan has to say about this.

[Hyper]

If it really is as you describe then yes raising revenue via taxation of an essential commodity and service.

Our government has done that a lot + indirect taxation on essential commodities to plug up their leaking budget.

But what's the official stance? Surely there's some word about what they plan to do with said taxes.

[Vlerchan]

The issue with water charges is that there implementation has been an unmitigated disaster. There's been a handful of weeks where it hasn't appeared in the papers for the wrong reasons.

I'll begin by mentioning that I support taxation in the hope that it prompts conservation and investment in water infrastructure. That's also about as positive as this post is going to get.

The first problems is the guillotine-job that got it through parliament. Our parliament has a quite poor standard of debate in general but in the case of Irish Water it was rammed through and the potential for debate shut down. Then there's the quasi-privitisation of the fund. I use quasi- because it was never privatised. Irish Water is part of Board Gais Eireann and possesses what seems like an unlimited credit line without needing to be too accountable. It's first CEO was the former manager of Dublin City Council.

Then there's the funding scandal: 80 million wasted on outside consulting despite direction to source with from within BGE: bonuses that seem unlinked to performance: amongst others. The latest one is the call centre contract being out sourced to a firm that meets the minimum requirements for tender because of previous government contracts. So before we begin look at its operation we have significant sunk costs that should never have happened.

There's small issues. Examples include Irish Water demanding PPS numbers and damaging resident properties but these are minor points on the agenda.

Then there's the basis for the revenue. The original intention was that metres would count up the amount of water used and charge on that basis. That was too controversial and was replaced with a flat tax. Then conservation grants emerged [more sunk costs] - though don't let the term 'conservation' fool people: that ideal was shelved 12 months ago. The revenue isn't earmarked for infrastructure - which I don't mind at the moment: though the Left have a serious issue with.

In effect it's a poll tax which no-one wants: but a tug-a-war of interests produced. Coalition is indicating that it will remain like this until 2022.

---

There was also far from 100.000 at the march.

[Hyper]

Then there's the basis for the revenue. The original intention was that metres would count up the amount of water used and charge on that basis. That was too controversial and was replaced with a flat tax.

What the hell was controversial about paying based on your consumption?

P.S the word flat tax triggers me! Use a warning next time!!!

[Vlerchan]

What the hell was controversial about paying based on your consumption?
One of three things:
People seem to believe that because Ireland has lots of water around it that it's arriving in their taps at a negligible cost.
Water is a human right.
It's been traditional that the revenue was raised through part of the general consumption tax.
The alteration of the taxation scheme helps insofar as it made what was to be paid certain and seems to indicate that's the amount required.

[Judean Zealot]

Vlerchan

Do you think the implementation will affect the elections in any meaningful way?

[mahony0509]

Some more scuffles today in Waterford as the Taoiseach (PM) visits a business..

Video (https://youtu.be/yCZUXSzrocw)

[Chapperz16]

Water is a commodity and therefore open to tax. I have no grievances with a water tax as it creates revenue for the state and simply put, people can often use excessive amounts of water so perhaps a tax is in fact not such a bad idea. I also disagree with the idea that drinking water is a human right. Yes it should be available for all people but that does not Make it a right in itself

[mahony0509]

Water is a commodity and therefore open to tax. I have no grievances with a water tax as it creates revenue for the state and simply put, people can often use excessive amounts of water so perhaps a tax is in fact not such a bad idea. I also disagree with the idea that drinking water is a human right. Yes it should be available for all people but that does not Make it a right in itself

Water is a basic human right. Everyone needs water no matter who you are or where you live. Its not a commodity.

[Chapperz16]

OK it may be a human right, sure but it is not free. Everyone should have the chance and opportunity to gain access to clean water but there is nothing wrong with having a tax on it. Taxes are what a state rely upon for revenue and the the proceeds should go towards improving the water supply.

[mahony0509]

OK it may be a human right, sure but it is not free. Everyone should have the chance and opportunity to gain access to clean water but there is nothing wrong with having a tax on it. Taxes are what a state rely upon for revenue and the the proceeds should go towards improving the water supply.

It should be going to water but it doesn't seem to be. Anyways, elections are Friday so Irish Water could be gone next week :P

[Chapperz16]

It might go into other departments. I don't know enough about Irish politics and society for me to judge but I can't really see what is wrong with the water tax.

[Porpoise101]

I have well water so it's treated at my house. It's kind of weird to think of paying for water, but I guess it's a reality for urbanised areas. We still buy the salts and treatments needed.

[sqishy]

I wasn't expecting this topic to spring up, but I'm not seeing any disagreement with Vlerchan.
Also, all deities forbid if 100,000 people marched in Dublin - the protest would be the least of our problems for that day, if it ever does come.

[Vlerchan]

Vlerchan

Do you think the implementation will affect the elections in any meaningful way?
I'm doubtful. Those that take a big issue with it are tied into the left-leaning groups and candidates already and would have voted against the coalition regardless.

I guess an exception might be made for AAA-PBP which built their profile on the protests. Those hold between 3 - 5 percent of the vote.