Brexit

[Vlerchan]

David Cameron hailed a landmark deal on Friday he said gave Britain "special status" in the European Union and pledged to campaign heart and soul to stay in the EU at a deeply uncertain referendum expected in June.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-idUSKCN0VS153

Here's what was secured in the negations.

Cameron secured guarantees against Britain being a member of an ever-closer Union. He secured guarantees against Britain needing to join the currency-union. I'm fine with both.
Cameron secured 'parliamentary sovereignty' where 55% of parliaments could join together to block legislation if it infringes on their national sovereignty. The ironic part here is that I can imagine this being used more against Britain than with it.
Cameron secured the statues of London as being an independent financial hub and safe from European regulations. In general the EU has promised to strike more trade deals and relax regulation - though this has been an admitted goal for some time.
Cameron secured an 'emergency break' which can be used to restrict immigrants access to benefits for up to four years: where these are phased-in. The break also requires EU approval before it can be applied. The EU have guaranteed that this approval will be granted with unanimous consent though passing legislation takes about 6 months. Child benefit will also be paid at the rate of the immigrants home state. I'm highly sceptical that either of these proposals will curtail immigration in any meaningful sense.
Belgium managed to introduce a clause that has this deal expire if Britian vote to leave the EU.
Important for Irish people is:

The Irish Ambassador to Britain has confirmed that the Government has held talks with London to ensure that Irish nationals living in Britain are not affected by any restrictions to benefits which may emerge as part of a deal to keep the UK in the EU at this week's summit in Brussels.

Speaking on Bloomberg television, Ambassador Dan Mulhall said Ireland's arrangements with the UK regarding Irish nationals working there were "separate" from Mr Cameron's efforts to restrict migration and limit benefits for those coming from Central and Eastern Europe.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0218/768983-eu-leaders-to-attend-brexit-summit/

Odds are Ireland will be constitutionally obliged to pass a referendum to pass a number of these concessions to Cameron too.

So what's the feeling about the deal and Brexit in general?

[Living For Love]

Why did he want to achieve this "special status" for the UK anyway? I have nothing against keeping the UK in the EU, but these privileges make no sense. If he doesn't want to put up with European legislation and immigrants, then he can simply leave the union.

[Porpoise101]

Why did he want to achieve this "special status" for the UK anyway? I have nothing against keeping the UK in the EU, but these privileges make no sense. If he doesn't want to put up with European legislation and immigrants, then he can simply leave the union.

I agree. Unless the privileges go to everyone, then it is not a fair union. I think it is time for them to realize that they are not special.

[Hyper]

Lol the EU has never been a ''fair union'' to begin with.

So taking my obvious negative stance towards some aspects of the EU in mind, I support Britain for sticking up for its own interests.

[lliam]

Let Cameron dream on. Or his fairy imaginations are just a lullaby for his voters.


Lol the EU has never been a ''fair union'' to begin with.

i guesso. Each EU country is doing the own thing.

[Vlerchan]

Why did he want to achieve this "special status" for the UK anyway?
He needs to convince a Euroskeptic electorate that his token concessions are important in order to keep his Europhile elite satisfied.

---

The understanding I have is that outside the political proclamations and placing London outside of financial regulation the other concessions apply to all member-states.

[Stronk Serb]

I agree. Unless the privileges go to everyone, then it is not a fair union. I think it is time for them to realize that they are not special.

The EU is everything but not a fair union. We are going through tooth and nail for membershio while Croatia who has a lower GDP and more than three times our debt got in. Their standard of living is based on borrowing money, and is unsustainable. Also it's not fair that only Germany's interests are to be respected.

Lol the EU has never been a ''fair union'' to begin with.

So taking my obvious negative stance towards some aspects of the EU in mind, I support Britain for sticking up for its own interests.

This. UK answered unfairness by having them "bribe" (in giving certain privileges) for staying

Let Cameron dream on. Or his fairy imaginations are just a lullaby for his voters.

It's balancing and trying to keep both the pros of leaving and staying while minimizing the cons.


i guesso. Each EU country is doing the own thing.

[Porpoise101]

I get that the EU isn't a fair union, I just wish it was.

[phuckphace]

http://i.imgur.com/fDC8Zmb.jpg

[Porpoise101]

image (http://i.imgur.com/fDC8Zmb.jpg)
Nice one, but the sun has set on the British Empire. They lost their colonies, the majority of Ireland, and Wales has autonomy. RIP 600 years of empire-building. Part of me is happy that their rule collapsed because it's ironic. But another part pities them.

To be fair, UKIP should've gotten more seats.

[Judean Zealot]

image (http://i.imgur.com/fDC8Zmb.jpg)

'The rotary club of Ramsey'.

[Alexwellace]

As a 17-year-old I'm appalled I will not get a say in this, possibly the most important decision my country will make for a very long time and one that will affect me indefinitely. If anything, It's my generation this will hit the hardest as it will be us who might have to move into the working world or University during the possible transition period. The 2014 Scottish Independence referendum lowered their voting age to 16 because they believed these young adults should get a say in the choice that will entirely shape the future of their country, and now that an arguably much bigger decision is on the horizon we're being excluded?

The age should be lowered to 16+ for this referendum, if not indefinitely. In this modern technological age it's could be argued that many Young adults are more up to date with current affairs than many adults due to growing up in a culturally expanding and information driven society.

[Atlantis]

As a 17-year-old I'm appalled I will not get a say in this, possibly the most important decision my country will make for a very long time and one that will affect me indefinitely. If anything, It's my generation this will hit the hardest as it will be us who might have to move into the working world or University during the possible transition period. The 2014 Scottish Independence referendum lowered their voting age to 16 because they believed these young adults should get a say in the choice that will entirely shape the future of their country, and now that an arguably much bigger decision is on the horizon we're being excluded?

The age should be lowered to 16+ for this referendum, if not indefinitely. In this modern technological age it's could be argued that many Young adults are more up to date with current affairs than many adults due to growing up in a culturally expanding and information driven society.

This is a really good point. In this referendum , and if the Scottish one was successful, the exit would take years to come into force and yes will mainly affect younger people.

[lliam]

The Predictor: Chancellor Merkel supported Brexit and wished Prime Minister David Cameron all best for his new career as a rose breeder. [ts]

http://picload.org/image/wccaoro/brext_001.jpg


user comment on express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/643026/No-EU-Poll-proves-Britain-wants-out-eurozone):




There are those that see but do not perceive, there are those that hear but do not understand, The Good Book says September 2016 is the last Jubilee, opening the door to the Eighth day , the pope has declared a holy jubilee breaking open the seal on specific church doors that only can take place every ten years, stating that all who walk through these specific doors will be cleansed of all sin and will not have to go through purgatory ,where-ever that is in the catholic world, Time to forget the worldly things, the raging spiritual war is drawing to a very painful close, Leave the E U now before it is to late

[Vlerchan]

Bump., we're getting close to the actual referendum date.

The most interesting part of all this is the significant divergence between what the consensus of economics is when it comes to the economic impact - and what the public have indicated through polling. It will be disastrous.

The pound is heading for its biggest weekly drop against the euro in a year as investors are shaken in their view that Britain will vote to stay in the European Union.
Sterling’s appreciation in the last three weeks of May halted as recent polls swung in favor of the ‘Leave’ camp, in contrast to earlier ones where pro-EU voters held a lead. The pound pared its weekly losses against the dollar on Friday after the U.S. reported that employers in May added the fewest workers in almost six years. It was still set for its first weekly loss since May 6 versus the greenback.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-03/pound-heads-for-worst-week-since-march-after-brexit-polls-tip

More than £20bn wiped off FTSE 100 in two days as Brexit fears grip investors

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/01/ftse-100-slumps-to-one-week-low-as-oecd-cautions-of-dismal-globa/

It's already started with investors pulling their savings out of British-denominated assets.

This week Leave kicked off the focus on the issue of immigration. But surely everyone knows that Eastern Europeans are large net contributors to government treasury, and immigration has a non-significant-from-zero impact on wages - surely, right?!.

[Flapjack]

Why did he want to achieve this "special status" for the UK anyway? I have nothing against keeping the UK in the EU, but these privileges make no sense. If he doesn't want to put up with European legislation and immigrants, then he can simply leave the union.
Because he is twat simply. I think he is okay with the same privilages going to other countries but cameron wants all the good stuff without sacrificing anything.
image (http://i.imgur.com/fDC8Zmb.jpg)
That man is such a cringy twatXD

[sqishy]

Hopefully there is less (arguably) fear-instilling on either side of this in the next 19 days; I feel it'll be a staying-in result, and had that feeling since the mentioning of TERRORISM and WAR occurred.

I'm really neutral on this, or at least not on either side enough to care on getting it across. Living elsewhere can give you a justified reason to not participate as much or at all in something sometimes - this being one of them for me. My previous absence is evidence.

[Flapjack]

Hopefully there is less (arguably) fear-instilling on either side of this in the next 19 days; I feel it'll be a staying-in result and had that since the mentioning of TERRORISM and WAR occured.

I'm really neutral on this, or at least not on either side enough to care on getting it across. Living elsewhere can give you a justified reason to not participate as much or at all in something sometimes - this being one of them for me. My previous absence is evidence.
There won't be buddy. I read an interesting article about how thoughts spread, backed up by scientific research, unfortunately fear is the one that spreads the best, followed up by humor but fear is wayyyy in front.

Both the media and the campaigns know this so they fill all their stuff with fear mongering.

[DVDan19]

Having the UK to quit the EU would be such a disaster ! Either for the UK than for the other members of the EU (especially France). Quitting the union would mean getting rid of all of the economic agreements exclusive to the EU, and it would be a disaster, even in the UK.
I really hope UK is staying in the EU !

[sqishy]

There won't be buddy. I read an interesting article about how thoughts spread, backed up by scientific research, unfortunately fear is the one that spreads the best, followed up by humor but fear is wayyyy in front.

Both the media and the campaigns know this so they fill all their stuff with fear mongering.

This is one of my more common uses of 'hope' here being metaphorical rather than literal. It can also be literal, but that involves a suspension of expectation which is hard to do taking how often this expectation has been corroborated :D .

[phuckphace]

That man is such a cringy twatXD

http://i.imgur.com/7hyRwiR.png

he'll never let any fookin mooslems take his pints, and you shouldn't either

[Vlerchan]

Question, since Leaving is winning both in VTs polls, and nationally in the U.K.,

What do yous actually think will happen when the UK leaves the EU?

[phuckphace]

What do yous actually think will happen when the UK leaves the EU?

majority BNP/UKIP coalition, restoration of the Empire, reinstatement of capital punishment, traditional marriage restored, concealed carry legalized, foreigners repatriated, massive wage hike, taxes lowered, general happiness and welfare maximized, and the rise of Britler.

gotta start somewhere you know.

[dxcxdzv]

From what I've seen this far the FTSE (100) wasn't in great form at the beginning of May, it's kind of better now. It seemed like it was mainly about a fear (anticipation) of the Brexit.

From what I've read negative impacts would mainly be on the short term (Cf. Carney-senpai).
There are also several banks (Goldman Sachs and HSBC) that threatened to "leave" the UK in case of a Brexit.
The BoE plans to spontaneously increase the money supply around the referendum date apparently, in case of a - terribly terrible omagadwhatwe'regoingtodo - credit shortage.

Long term impacts are a bit more obscure though.

[Vlerchan]

The BoE plans to spontaneously increase the money supply around the referendum date apparently, in case of a - terribly terrible omagadwhatwe'regoingtodo - credit shortage.
I don't believe this is set in stone - but it has been implicit from Carney's comments on this.

Long term impacts are a bit more obscure though.
There's pretty significant consensus it won't be pretty. Though I agree that the extent of the unprettiness isn't immediately certain.

It's probably wrong that part of me wants Brexit to occur just because it will throw up lots of interesting data.

[Judean Zealot]

Vlerchan

Would Brexit rock the Good Friday Agreement - or at the very least spark a referendum on Northern Ireland joining the Republic?

[Vlerchan]

Vlerchan

Would Brexit rock the Good Friday Agreement - or at the very least spark a referendum on Northern Ireland joining the Republic?
Without a doubt it would strain relations in the North: there's a clear nationalist-unionist divide in voting preferences - though unionist Remain-minority might be large enough for Northern Ireland as a whole to swing Remain. For at least some period the border will need to be re-established - if I remember correct that's been confirmed. But it's also worth considering that the economic damage to Northern Ireland is going to be horrific - and the likelihood is that the development subsidies that it receives from the European Union are not going to be maintained on-top.

I have heard one Republican voice support for Brexit on the grounds that he feels it's the path to a United Ireland. The reasoning is that it's maintenance - and we must remember that Northern Ireland runs a large deficit as it - will just become too expensive. I'm not sure that will be the case - but I would expect a re-animation of the nationalist agenda.

---

In Brexit news: S&P announced this afternoon that it will downgrade British debt in the case of Brexit - and might downgrade it twice. That's a real big deal.

More firms states there would be job cuts. Some referring to figures in their 1000s. Bloomberg found ~20% of FTSE 350 have frozen hiring in the meantime.

Is there also other Euros that have begun filling up their amazon.co.uk baskets in anticipation for the pound plummeting on the 23rd?

[Judean Zealot]

I have heard one Republican voice support for Brexit on the grounds that he feels it's the path to a United Ireland. The reasoning is that it's maintenance - and we must remember that Northern Ireland runs a large deficit as it - will just become too expensive. I'm not sure that will be the case - but I would expect a re-animation of the nationalist agenda.

This was what I was thinking. The irony of the EU ultimately serving a nationalist cause is delicious. :D

[Flapjack]

Without a doubt it would strain relations in the North: there's a clear nationalist-unionist divide in voting preferences - though unionist Remain-minority might be large enough for Northern Ireland as a whole to swing Remain. For at least some period the border will need to be re-established - if I remember correct that's been confirmed. But it's also worth considering that the economic damage to Northern Ireland is going to be horrific - and the likelihood is that the development subsidies that it receives from the European Union are not going to be maintained on-top.

I have heard one Republican voice support for Brexit on the grounds that he feels it's the path to a United Ireland. The reasoning is that it's maintenance - and we must remember that Northern Ireland runs a large deficit as it - will just become too expensive. I'm not sure that will be the case - but I would expect a re-animation of the nationalist agenda.

---

In Brexit news: S&P announced this afternoon that it will downgrade British debt in the case of Brexit - and might downgrade it twice. That's a real big deal.

More firms states there would be job cuts. Some referring to figures in their 1000s. Bloomberg found ~20% of FTSE 350 have frozen hiring in the meantime.

Is there also other Euros that have begun filling up their amazon.co.uk baskets in anticipation for the pound plummeting on the 23rd?
Interesting:') Do you want a united ireland?

[Vlerchan]

Interesting:') Do you want a united ireland?
I'm quite impartial towards the whole idea, these days. I figure the nation-state is increasingly redundant in a world of increasing globalisation.

---

Oh, and in more Brexit news, Herr Schäuble has ruled out Britian being able to opt into the arrangements that Norway or Switzerland currently have.

“If the majority in Britain opts for Brexit, that would be a decision against the single market. In is in. Out is out. One has to respect the sovereignty of the British people [my emphasis].”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/06/pro-eu-mps-could-mount-guerrilla-campaign-to-reverse-brexit-decision

Of course, Switzerland and Norway were both required to allow for free movement of labour, so it was never going to be the British ideal, but that the door is being closed on that sort of scope is bad for Leave.

In further predictions I'm expecting something like: [1] Investors begin to sell off British assets, [2] Pound plummets (increased inflation), [3] UK debt downgraded, price of debt increases [4] Recession, [5] Emergency budget, major cuts to services, [6] Ineffective monetary easing, [7] Pissed Scots - referendum, [8] Off-shoring - in particular of financial services, [9] greater labour market rigidities pushes UK off of optimal growth path, [... X] Britler.

Now, it's still going to be difficult to call, and I could be wrong, but that seems likely to me.

[Flapjack]

I'm quite impartial towards the whole idea, these days. I figure the nation-state is increasingly redundant in a world of increasing globalisation.
Yeah I see what you mean:)


Oh, and in more Brexit news, Herr Schäuble has ruled out Britian being able to opt into the arrangements that Norway or Switzerland currently have.
“If the majority in Britain opts for Brexit, that would be a decision against the single market. In is in. Out is out. One has to respect the sovereignty of the British people [my emphasis].”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/06/pro-eu-mps-could-mount-guerrilla-campaign-to-reverse-brexit-decisionOf course, Switzerland and Norway were both required to allow for free movement of labour, so it was never going to be the British ideal, but that the door is being closed on that sort of scope is bad for Leave.

In further predictions I'm expecting something like: [1] Investors begin to sell off British assets, [2] Pound plummets (increased inflation), [3] UK debt downgraded, price of debt increases [4] Recession, [5] Emergency budget, major cuts to services, [6] Ineffective monetary easing, [7] Pissed Scots - referendum, [8] Off-shoring - in particular of financial services, [9] greater labour market rigidities pushes UK off of optimal growth path, [... X] Britler.

Now, it's still going to be difficult to call, and I could be wrong, but that seems likely to me.
I want the UK to stay in the EU, but I don't trust Herr Schäuble, he wan't the UK to stay in the EU so he is trying a fear tactic to make the UK stay. The nationalists know what they're doing is risky and the only reasons I have heard them say are racist. I think we should be eductaing them on stuff like how there was no flood of immigrants from Romania and Bulgaria.

[Vlerchan]

[...] but I don't trust Herr Schäuble, he wan't the UK to stay in the EU so he is trying a fear tactic to make the UK stay.
No, I'm quite sure Schäuble actually means this. If Britain have an easy departure from the EU then that gives cause to rising Euroskeptic elements within both his own state and within allies like France*.

He was similarly hardline when it came to Greece because he didn't want to see the rise of socialist elements in the peripheral states.

---

* Who've similarly committed to making things difficult for the UK.

The nationalists know what they're doing is risky and the only reasons I have heard them say are racist.
Their main argument is the restoration of parliamentary sovereignty (and legal sovereignty), which is hardly racist.

Without a doubt, there's some chauvinistic elements in their ranks, but it certainly doesn't define the movement these days.

[Judean Zealot]

Vlerchan

Would the UK be able to gain a FTA with the EU in lieu of the single market? That would at least give Parliament greater sovereignty and regulatory control over the market. I imagine that's what I'd want were I a Brit.

Also, I imagine a post-brexit UK would be pretty desperate to obtain a FTA with America, having been frozen out of the single market and a potential TTIP. How do you think that will play out?

In other news, is Boris Johnson Trump's long-lost twin?

[Vlerchan]

Would the UK be able to gain a FTA with the EU in lieu of the single market? That would at least give Parliament greater sovereignty and regulatory control over the market. I imagine that's what I'd want were I a Brit.[/quot
Without a doubt it would be able to get one - Britain is still an important trading partner. Whether the terms would be as good as what is had at the moment isn't probable at all. In particular, odds are the EU will stop recognising British professional qualifications - those for accountanting and medicine and law - which will be disastrous since British comparative advantage is in professional services.

I'm also imagining there will also be a significant organisation of regulation within this FTA as there is in TTIP. But that's just speculation.

[quote=Judean Zealot]Also, I imagine a post-brexit UK would be pretty desperate to obtain a FTA with America, having been frozen out of the single market and a potential TTIP. How do you think that will play out?
This depends on the presidential choice. Obama - and w can take this as the moderate position* - claims that Britain will be put at the back of the Q as far as free trade agreements are concerned. Trump - on the other hand - has stated he would be up for negotiating a FTA with the UK if Brexit occurs. If negotiations do occur an agreement should be much faster than what happened under the TTIP negotiations being as there is less veto-players the US and UK have more common ground.

I also could be wrong but I'm quite sure that if Brexit occurs the UK will be frozen out of all the free trade agreements stuck through the EU - and not just a potential TTIP.

---

* I also imagine this is for geopolitical reasons. It is not in the interests of the US to see the EU broken up.

In other news, is Boris Johnson Trump's long-lost twin?
I has always wondered to what extent bad hair might be genetic.

[Judean Zealot]

Vlerchan

I've been watching some of the debates, and on the whole the Brexiters are arguing far more eloquently than the Remain people. The Europhiles are really running a lousy campaign. I suppose if I were a Brit I would vote Remain, but it would be with a heavy heart. I consider the very real threat of losing both Scotland and North Ireland, coupled with the inevitable recession, is too much of a threat. But I am highly sympathetic for the people's demand for the restoration of national, legislative, and judicial sovereignty.

[dxcxdzv]

Funny fact, today special 'The Telegraph' paper, 50 reasons why the EU question matters.
Though the information given are more or less true it's definitely Out-side which pisses me off a bit coz' people are going to consider it as 50 reasons why the EU fucks the UK everyday. Well, when there is nobody to counter-argument you that's easy.

Btw Vlerchan no you're not alone, I myself both planning to "shop around a bit" and being sickly curious of the outcome of a Brexit.

[Vlerchan]

The Europhiles are really running a lousy campaign.
In their defence, it's difficult to really enliven a campaign who's talking points all commence with "Well, we're really not the biggest fans either, but...".

Nonetheless, what I found disturbing about this entire debate is the Remain's side arguments being characterised as either scaremongering or patronising in the media.

[Judean Zealot]

John Cleese has come out in support of Leave. Honestly, I'm surprised.

But yeah. I don't know if they can pull through, but I'll definitely be cheering for an independent Britain if Leave wins.

[sqishy]

he'll never let any fookin mooslems take his pints, and you shouldn't either

What did you mean by this? :confused:

[Judean Zealot]

I've a new favourite MP: Jacob Rees-Mogg. I'm not being sarcastic - I die for intelligent, educated, honest, and most importantly, delightfully eccentric people.

[Judean Zealot]

So, does anybody think the assassination of a Remain MP will significantly alter the course of public opinion?

[phuckphace]

F A L S E
L
A
G

<alexjones>I think MI6 dunnit and are going to pin it on Brexit because they're in the pockets of the rema1n cru (haha remain...definitely will not remain white, lol) so yes total setup folks, don't be sheep.</alexjones>

[Flapjack]

So, does anybody think the assassination of a Remain MP will significantly alter the course of public opinion?
Nope she wasn't that big of a deal but hopefully it will show some where nationalism gets you.

[Judean Zealot]

Nope she wasn't that big of a deal but hopefully it will show some where nationalism gets you.

As Robespierre and Cromwell show where powerful Parliaments get you?

[Flapjack]

As Robespierre and Cromwell show where powerful Parliaments get you?
The assasin wasn't mad about the power of parliment though?

[Vlerchan]

So, does anybody think the assassination of a Remain MP will significantly alter the course of public opinion?
British markets seem to believe so. The FTSE and the pound both increased in response.

If it it is significant though depends on whether it remains in the news up until next week - and what else ends up being unearthed about the killer. I'm imagining it will have an effect at the margin but won't be a gamechanger.

[Judean Zealot]

Leave's momentum has been effectively checked. This one man may have singlehandedly destroyed the United Kingdom.

[Flapjack]

Leave's momentum has been effectively checked. This one man may have singlehandedly destroyed the United Kingdom.
Hope not:( Wonder why leave is ahead though after this??

[Stronk Serb]

Nope she wasn't that big of a deal but hopefully it will show some where nationalism gets you.

That is a reaction on the percieved EU encroaching on the UK liberties and even more immigration. Also stop blaming it all on nationalism. This is pure insanity.

[Flapjack]

That is a reaction on the percieved EU encroaching on the UK liberties and even more immigration. Also stop blaming it all on nationalism. This is pure insanity.
I don't get how this is a reply to my post but as you quoted me I will reply to this.

The man that shot her was a crazy person. Just as the Orlando shooter was a crazy person. Yes the Brit assasin was a nationalist and yes the Orlando shooter was a muslim but they were both crazy and that is why they done them acts.

[Stronk Serb]

I don't get how this is a reply to my post but as you quoted me I will reply to this.

The man that shot her was a crazy person. Just as the Orlando shooter was a crazy person. Yes the Brit assasin was a nationalist and yes the Orlando shooter was a muslim but they were both crazy and that is why they done them acts.

Yet you blame nationalism for this assasination, but I never saw you blame Islam for Orlando. I find it hypocritical. I think this is sort of a reaction to not fullfulling the needs of certain parts of the population, the percieved threat of massive immigration and catering to minorities instead of the native majority.

[Flapjack]

Yet you blame nationalism for this assasination, but I never saw you blame Islam for Orlando. I find it hypocritical. I think this is sort of a reaction to not fullfulling the needs of certain parts of the population, the percieved threat of massive immigration and catering to minorities instead of the native majority.
The man that shot her was a crazy person. Just as the Orlando shooter was a crazy person. Yes the Brit assasin was a nationalist and yes the Orlando shooter was a muslim but they were both crazy and that is why they done them acts.

[Vlerchan]

[...] percieved EU encroaching on the UK liberties[.]
Of course, we at VT know that this is broadly untrue, and that EU membership has resulted in the broad enhancement of rights available to the UK through Fundamental Rights jurisprudence, and the adoption of the ECHR at treaty-level.

[...] even more immigration.
https://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1412000/uk-immigration-chart-ons.jpg

Yes, most immigration to the UK is from outside the EU.

No, that was not the work of the EU, too. That was British politicians looking for better GDP growth.

[Stronk Serb]

Of course, we at VT know that this is broadly untrue, and that EU membership has resulted in the broad enhancement of rights available to the UK through Fundamental Rights jurisprudence, and the adoption of the ECHR at treaty-level.


image (https://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1412000/uk-immigration-chart-ons.jpg)

Yes, most immigration to the UK is from outside the EU.

No, that was not the work of the EU, too. That was British politicians looking for better GDP growth.

Your average Brexit supporter blames everything on the EU. This sort of reminds me of the Onderon Secession Crisis from Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II

[Judean Zealot]

I am delighted to post that the BBC has called the election for "Leave". This is truly a momentous moral victory for patriots and nationalists all across the globe. One can but hope that this dagger blow dealt by the citizens of the United Kingdom will reach the very heart of the Eurofederalist beast.

God bless the British nation.

[lyhom]

lmao (http://www.businessinsider.com/global-market-brexit-reaction-2016-6)

(I mean britain's probably going to be alright but)

[Judean Zealot]

lmao (http://www.businessinsider.com/global-market-brexit-reaction-2016-6)

(I mean britain's probably going to be alright but)

We all knew this would happen, but the BoE has been preparing for this eventuality and will likely take immediate steps to rectify the situation.

[Leprous]

Well, this ain't good. Well Brittian will be an island with a wall now.

[Judean Zealot]

Well, this ain't good. Well Brittian will be an island with a wall now.

No more than Switzerland or Canada.

[Leprous]

No more than Switzerland or Canada.

Well Switzerland has been like this for a long time now. This one happened suddenly. Pound is already at an all time low.

[dxcxdzv]

I am delighted to post that the BBC has called the election for "Leave". This is truly a momentous moral victory for patriots and nationalists all across the globe. One can but hope that this dagger blow dealt by the citizens of the United Kingdom will reach the very heart of the Eurofederalist beast.

God bless the British nation.
Yeah this damn European nationalism won't take away our British nationalism.

[Judean Zealot]

Well Switzerland has been like this for a long time now. This one happened suddenly. Pound is already at an all time low.

If the next week is employed wisely by Westminster the markets will begin to settle. There will be a negotiated Brexit and renewed trade with the Commonwealth. It'll be fine.

[Leprous]

If the next week is employed wisely by Westminster the markets will begin to settle. There will be a negotiated Brexit and renewed trade with the Commonwealth. It'll be fine.

/if/ There are already French and Dutch politicians saying they want the same. This might set of a chain reaction which won't benefit the EU at all.

Also, what about the ones working overseas? We have plenty of British working at the Belgian coasts but they live in the UK. What if they want to isolate themselves completely and start to deny goods getting imported from the EU?

Also one more thing, if North Ireland wants to stay with the EU, merging them with Ireland won't exactly be easy.

[dxcxdzv]

This is actually damn hell on the financial markets.

The only clever thing to do now if you got Euros or Dollars is to buy in England or on British websites things only available or produced there, hehe.

[Judean Zealot]

/if/ There are already French and Dutch politicians saying they want the same. This might set of a chain reaction which won't benefit the EU at all.

I'd honestly like to see the EU reduced to a loose FTA. However, FN and the Dutch can only call a referendum if they're in power, which will take several years.

Also, what about the ones working overseas? We have plenty of British working at the Belgian coasts but they live in the UK. What if they want to isolate themselves completely and start to deny goods getting imported from the EU?

The UK will be like every other country in the world; a member of the WTO. It will be in everybody besides for Jean Claude Juncker's interest to renegotiate trade agreements.

Also one more thing, if North Ireland wants to stay with the EU, merging them with Ireland won't exactly be easy.

Personally I think the UK would be better off without NI. But of course, if they hold a referendum to join the Republic of Ireland they have every right to under the Good Friday agreement.

[Leprous]

I'd honestly like to see the EU reduced to a loose FTA. However, FN and the Dutch can only call a referendum if they're in power, which will take several years.



The UK will be like every other country in the world; a member of the WTO. It will be in everybody besides for Jean Claude Juncker's interest to renegotiate trade agreements.



Personally I think the UK would be better off without NI. But of course, if they hold a referendum to join the Republic of Ireland they have every right to under the Good Friday agreement.

I don't think having the EU reduced to loose countries is going to be a good idea. Incase another conflict breaks out what will happen if everyone is independant from eachother?

Well let's hope they stay in the WTO and not leave this one aswell. Should that happen we can all say they will die out economicly.

Well they can merge with the Republic of Ireland if they want to remain in the EU but would conclicts emerge from that? They might and that will only result in more problems.

[Judean Zealot]

I don't think having the EU reduced to loose countries is going to be a good idea. Incase another conflict breaks out what will happen if everyone is independant from eachother?

It was NATO that kept the peace, and NATO who will continue to do so.

Just about the entire world is part of the WTO.

Well they can merge with the Republic of Ireland if they want to remain in the EU but would conclicts emerge from that? They might and that will only result in more problems.

I don't think any major resumption of hostilities would occur. All parties have disarmed, the GF agreement is clear, and nobody in Ireland wants war.

-----

Edit: Cameron will resign by October. Expect wholesale purges of all Europhilic elements within the Tory party.

[Leprous]

It was NATO that kept the peace, and NATO who will continue to do so.

Just about the entire world is part of the WTO.



I don't think any major resumption of hostilities would occur. All parties have disarmed, the GF agreement is clear, and nobody in Ireland wants war.

Well nobody in Europe wanted a war either in 1918 just saying. Nobody wanting war is no reason for it not to happen.

Tearing up a peaceful, mostly financially sound union, and break it into little tiny pieces won't exactly end well.

[Judean Zealot]

Well nobody in Europe wanted a war either in 1918 just saying. Nobody wanting war is no reason for it not to happen.

I'm afraid everybody wanted a war in 1914.

Tearing up a peaceful, mostly financially sound union, and break it into little tiny pieces won't exactly end well.

Germany, Belgium, and France are economically stable. The rest has gone to the dogs. Massive unemployment, austerity, failing banks... There is nothing sound about the European periphery.

[dxcxdzv]

BREXING NEWS - Cameron resigns


David Cameron has announced he is quitting as Prime Minister in an extraordinary statement just hours after Britain voted for Brexit .
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/humiliated-david-cameron-quits-uk-8271701

[Leprous]

I'm afraid everybody wanted a war in 1914.



Germany, Belgium, and France are economically stable. The rest has gone to the dogs. Massive unemployment, austerity, failing banks... There is nothing sound about the European periphery.

I was talking about 1918, where NOBODY wanted another one. What happened? Blame Germany!

Anyways, do you claim that Denmark, Sweden and Finland are economical disasters? Also what about the Netherlands and Austria?

[Vlerchan]

This is actually damn hell on the financial markets.
Pound fell enough last night to place the U.K. behind France in the size of its economy. FTSE plummeted too so.I imagine the recession before years end will compound that.
It's credit rating will fall today.

Boris Johnson also suggested that the funds for the NHS that came from Europe won't be replaced.

It also might not be in the interests of European states - but it is in the interests of the political futures of European parties, for them to slow and undermine the process of negotiating free trade agreements as it can. British comparative advantage is in services and that's something that will be impossible to renegotiate without deep commitments.

---

Britain deserves to become a glorified American airstrip.

Edit: It does seem that markets are holding up reasonably well all considering. Though whether it holds into the next week is another question.

[Flapjack]

I am delighted to post that the BBC has called the election for "Leave". This is truly a momentous moral victory for patriots and nationalists all across the globe. One can but hope that this dagger blow dealt by the citizens of the United Kingdom will reach the very heart of the Eurofederalist beast.

God bless the British nation.
Do you know why the UK joined the EU? Because they could not handle being indeppendant. Who will protect the rights of the british people? Cameron has resigned making the country even more unstable!

This is an example of why nationalism is bad. The UK has gained nothing from leaving the EU apart from the nationalists pride and that pride will destroy the nation. The worst thing is that it will be years before I can leave.


Boris Johnson also suggested that the funds for the NHS that came from Europe won't be replaced.


But guys! They said that the NHS would be getting more money and we can all trust racists that voted againsts the best interests of the UK because of nationalism!!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-nigel-farage-nhs-pledge-disowns-350-million-pounds-a7099906.html
Oh wait maybe we can't. This is hours after they won. The UK is fucked.
I'm afraid everybody wanted a war in 1914.

Yeahhh because of WW1 we can now be certain that every war is wanted! Like the falklands... oh wait that wasn't.

[dxcxdzv]

Vlerchan:
CAC and DAX are also in the red.
I've seen some interviews from The City, some fear that the EU won't be easy on the future agreements with the UK.

On the side of companies HSBC lost something like 9%. Damn.

Btw Spain has asked for Gibraltar back.

[Flapjack]

@Vlerchan (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/member.php?u=89715):
Btw Spain has asked for Gibraltar back.
Oh of everything that has just happened that is not high up on my concern listxD Gibraltar can have its own referendum. Wonder what life will be like in Gibraltar now the UK is not in the EU. No one thought about that? Colour me suprised.

[Vlerchan]

[...] some fear that the EU won't be easy on the future agreements with the UK.
I hope not.

On the side of companies HSBC lost something like 9%. Damn.
Barclays -26.7pc to 137p
RBS -25.8pc to 186.6p
Lloyds -22.3pc to 56.1p
Standard Chartered -7.8pc to 535.2p
HSBC -4.8pc to 433.1p

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/23/markets-live-will-sterling-surge-or-slump-as-the-eu-referendum-c/
Damn indeed.

Wonder what life will be like in Gibraltar now the UK is not in the EU. No one thought about that? Colour me suprised.
I had. Gibraltar was a major financial hub with a median income well above British levels. This was dependent on linkages with the rest of Europe that are untangling.

It'll be demanding it's own refurendum I imagine - esp. since 96% voted remain.

[dxcxdzv]

Oh of everything that has just happened that is not high up on my concern listxD Gibraltar can have its own referendum. Wonder what life will be like in Gibraltar now the UK is not in the EU. No one thought about that? Colour me suprised.
That is the point of Spain's request.
Gibraltar voted at 95% for Remain. If the UK is no longer in the EU they will be isolated and Madrid considers Gibraltar as a British colony, a land they invaded and that belongs to Spain.


I hope not.
There is no place for hope or anything.
The UK obtained several privileges from the EU. It's comprehensible that European governments - after the UK has split on their efforts - won't want to consider the UK as "special" anymore. Brits are no longer in a position of negotiating.
Still, I'm curious to see what agreements will be found.

[Flapjack]

That is the point of Spain's request.
Gibraltar voted at 95% for Remain. If the UK is no longer in the EU they will be isolated and Madrid considers Gibraltar as a British colony, a land they invaded and that belongs to Spain.
I feel for the people of Gibraltar but I have no sympathy for Spainish nationalism wanting their glorified rock back when nationalism got us in this mess!


It'll be demanding it's own refurendum I imagine - esp. since 96% voted remain.
Maybe, they are super nationalist though so they might still want to be British but they have a right to leave if they want. If they did leave, could they go straight back into the EU? Would they join spain?

[phuckphace]

Brussels BTFO

Merkel BTFO

Cameron BTFO

Remain absolutely BTFO

works for me lads

[Vlerchan]

Site to sign petition for second Scottish Independence referendum got such a huge number of hits, it crashed.

works for me lads
PENDING:

British Working Class: BTFO.

[Flapjack]

Site to sign petition for second Scottish Independence referendum got such a huge number of hits, it crashed.

Ironic how the vote to give the UK its independance may have destroyed the UK.

[phuckphace]

it's gotta get worse before it gets better

[StoppingTom]

So I told the UK to leave the EU... he actually did it the absolute madman hahahahahahaahha!!

[Stronk Serb]

Congratulations on leaving! I hope all economic problems entailing the loss of the EU market will end soon and that you will go through a bright and prosperous future, hell, maybe reforge the British Empire, in an economical sense. I hope many follow the UK's example, especially the minor nations because the European Union is a slowly sinking ship. Let the Un-Cuckening begin! :D

[Judean Zealot]

Laughing at the way Farage got thrown out like a soiled diaper by Leave. :D

[Flapjack]

Congratulations on leaving! I hope all economic problems entailing the loss of the EU market will end soon and that you will go through a bright and prosperous future, hell, maybe reforge the British Empire, in an economical sense. I hope many follow the UK's example, especially the minor nations because the European Union is a slowly sinking ship. Let the Un-Cuckening begin! :D
You know there are people in the UK that actually want the empire back.
Laughing at the way Farage got thrown out like a soiled diaper by Leave. :D
Farage is such a twat!

[Vlerchan]

Laughing at the way Farage got thrown out like a soiled diaper by Leave. :D
I'm not sure what sort of coalition mainstream-Leave believe they can cobble together without the support of this wing.

Their utter repudiation of their previously stated position on immigration is going to have them eaten alive by the electorate, I'm sure.

[Judean Zealot]

I'm not sure what sort of coalition mainstream-Leave believe they can cobble together without the support of this wing.

Their utter repudiation of their previously stated position on immigration is going to have them eaten alive by the electorate, I'm sure.

Johnson was quite clearly in favour of further immigration.

[Vlerchan]

Johnson was quite clearly in favour of further immigration.
Oh, it's quite clear that he had never proposed ending immigration altogether - and it seems clearer in hindsight he had no intention of deporting the current immigrant stock. But there had been a previous preference in mainstream-Leave* for a points-based system, and at the moment it seems as if this is being slowly re-considered, and the statues-quo favoured.

In other words, it's undoubtedly being progressively softened (from the acceptance of illegal immigration, voiced a few days ago by Boris (met with boohs), to the remarks of the last few hours).

---

* Please note that mainstream-Leave does not refer in all cases to Johnson, and hopes to capture a wider range of opinions.

[Stronk Serb]

You know there are people in the UK that actually want the empire back.

Of course there are, it's just how the Serbs want thd Serbian Empire of old.

[sqishy]

Of course there are, it's just how the Serbs want thd Serbian Empire of old.

Are you for that?

[northy]

I think that a 'full brexit' is a bad idea, due to loss of trade. However, if we were just to leave some of the treaties, I believe that this is a much better thing to do. Basically, we would get the best of both. The EU is not just one treaty, it is hundreds.

[Flapjack]

I think that a 'full brexit' is a bad idea, due to loss of trade. However, if we were just to leave some of the treaties, I believe that this is a much better thing to do. Basically, we would get the best of both. The EU is not just one treaty, it is hundreds.
Yeah but we have to negotiate that and any country can veto the terms.

[Vlerchan]

The EU is not just one treaty, it is hundreds.
The current legal arrangement of the EU, its procedural arrangement (including definition of the four freedoms), is built on two treaties: The TEU and the TFEU, as amended most recently under the Lisbon Treaty. There are then hundreds, if not thousands, of directives and other legislative instruments that define the actual policies of the EU, but these were formed through the Union institutions the Treaties create, and are not signed into directly themselves.

To exit the EU, one must necessarily exit the the TEU and the TFEU, which nullifies absolutely everything else. There is no option to pick and choose your favorites on the way out, and for that reason the UK will have to start from scratch in renegotiating everything.

[Ragle]

That now are interesting times.

Brexit has various effects on my family.

I won't speak about the economic and other consequences. This stuff isn't of my interest.

My family is a European family. Dad is technically German citizen, although he comes from the country where just a clown is trying to become president. Thus, he is also European ciitizen (with a horrible yankee accent i guess)

This makes his kids to German and European citizens. However our mom is British citizen. But no more a European citizen.

I was born in England and am technically a citizen of two countries with such papers.

Brexit now has the effect that mom most likely has to apply for a new residence permit and also a new work permit.


My older siblings are of legal age, and like our dad they choose the German citizenship. In their eyes this is equated with a full European citizenship. But in the near future they may need visas, when they travel to the UK ... ie to stay for a longer term or so.

When I (or my younger sibs) travel or move to the UK, I just travel as a British citizen, and vice versa in Europe as a European citizen. So my younger sibs and I don't really care about Brexit.


Mom now is all the time just pissed about those silly Brits who voted pro-leaving. :D

However, I have asked her if she isn't perhaps dumber than this Leavers because she didn't vote against leaving.

She still trusted that Brexit doesn't take place.

Okay, I sensed her vote alone wouldn't have made the difference. But I also think that there might be a lot of Brits like mom, living on the continent, who thought the same way mom did and therefore didn't vote too.

It may sound disrespectful to declare the own mother as a fool.

But in my opinion just those Brits, who thought like her, are the real loosers of Brexit. The really stupid ones (who didn't vote) in this affair I suppose.

[Hermes]

Farage is such a twat!

I don't think so. I'm no fan but politicians are generally inteligent and well educated. Many, if not most are power-hungry and disingenous though the extent of the deception varies from one to another.

[Flapjack]

I don't think so. I'm no fan but politicians are generally inteligent and well educated. Many, if not most are power-hungry and disingenous though the extent of the deception varies from one to another.
Just because I disagree with someone's political opinions does not mean I think they're stupid. For example, I cannot stand Cameron or Osborne but I know they are both extremely intelligent men etc etc but Farage is ever stupid, veryyy ignorant or so racist that he doesn't mind the economy collapsing to leave the EU. Farage is not intelligent or well educated, he is a racist populist. There is no academic test to get into power, you just need votes. So back to my original statement.... he is still a twat.

[Hermes]

Oh, it's quite clear that he had never proposed ending immigration altogether...

To me the whole leave campaign have been disingenuous. The exact effect of leaving depends very much on what is negotiated next. Those campaigning for leaving have been suggesting how things may be if the UK makes no contributions to, and accepts no regulation from, the rest of Europe despite the fact that almost all commentators have since suggested that deals will be negotiated and that will almost certainly involve making some contributions accpeting some regulation. The campaginers have been incredibly vague about their intentions and some have even suggested they had not even thought the matter through themselves, which is why they are now proposing a long period of delay before invoking the treaty. That seems surprising - I am much more inclined to suspect politicians of being dishonest than incompetent but if they really have got this far without knowing what they are hoping to negotiate then that is deeply irresponsible.

I also think there has been a fair bit of blaming the EU for problems which have nothing to do with the EU. As one example, I can't see how one can reasonably blame the EU for that fact that the baby boom generation are now drawing their pensions and the smaller working population that remains will struggle to keep them. This, it seems, is the real reason for allowing fairly free imigration rather than the requirement of EU membership.

[ceto2]

I must say that I know what Hermes means by this and when it come down to family votes different to there own blood it can make u angry sometimes as my gf found out two days ago must admit it wasn't nice watching them like that. But every have they says on this in or out EU.

[Hermes]

To exit the EU, one must necessarily exit the the TEU and the TFEU, which nullifies absolutely everything else. There is no option to pick and choose your favorites on the way out, and for that reason the UK will have to start from scratch in renegotiating everything.

You're probably just the person to clarify something. My understanding then, is that being a signatory to the core treaties obliges member states to impment the directives and they do that by enacting ordinary national legislation. As an example there is a directive on data protection and the UK has implemented that as the Data Protection Act 1988.

That means, while the obligation to implement the directives ceases upon leaving the union the acts that were enacted to implement them are still in force as they are ordinary UK legislation. Of course, if the government doesn't re-agree to some of these as part of a trade deal it is free to repeal them.

Assuming I have this right this will be one to watch. How many of the relevant acts that few people know about will be quietly repealed because, though they may be in the best interests of most of the people in the country, they are not in the interests of the government or those who lobby that government, and how many acts that people thought they had voted to do away with will actually remain because they are in the interests of the government or those who lobby that government.

[Stronk Serb]

Are you for that?

Not really. In this day and age, expanding beyond your nation-state is worse than ever. It's foolish unless uniting the same people. I am for all Serbs uniting under one banner. We would get Macedonia, Montenegro and the Republic of Srpska.

[phuckphace]

>English will not become an official language after Brexit, says senior MP
>English is not the official language of the country that invented it

2 0 1 6
0
1
6

[Hermes]

>English will not become an official language after Brexit, says senior MP
>English is not the official language of the country that invented it

I assume he means an official language of the EU. Lots of international things are published both in English and in French. Very often the names by which we know things are English but the abbreviations relate to the same name in French.

At one stage, after the Norman invasion, French was the official language of England. That didn't stop ordinary people speaking English and eventually French was abandonded, though whether there was ever any official proclaimation I have no idea.

[Flapjack]

I am hearing increased talk about the UK not leaving, please let them be right.

[Kahn]

Think there's any merit to the idea that the EU will form a "superstate" in the aftermath of brexit? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-European-superstate-France-Germany-draw-plans-morph-EU-countries-one-control-members-armies-economies.html)

Curious as to how accepting European posters here would be of such a proposition.

[Flapjack]

Think there's any merit to the idea that the EU will form a "superstate" in the aftermath of brexit? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-European-superstate-France-Germany-draw-plans-morph-EU-countries-one-control-members-armies-economies.html)

Curious as to how accepting European posters here would be of such a proposition.
I would love that!

[dxcxdzv]

I would love that!
Forget it Flapie.
Your country is out.
And at the rate it goes it will be with a kick in the ass.

An Europhile buddy of mine is more in favor of a two speeds EU, with a core almost merging and peripheral states just following regulations.
Basically it'd be way better that Western European states concentrate on themselves rather than to expand the EU to Turkey or any other Bullshitistan.

[Kahn]

I would love that!

Why?

[Judean Zealot]

Think there's any merit to the idea that the EU will form a "superstate" in the aftermath of brexit? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-European-superstate-France-Germany-draw-plans-morph-EU-countries-one-control-members-armies-economies.html)

Curious as to how accepting European posters here would be of such a proposition.

That's more or less what they've been working towards ever since Jean Monnet. This has always been my primary objection against the EU.

[Flapjack]

Forget it Flapie.
Your country is out.
And at the rate it goes it will be with a kick in the ass.

An Europhile buddy of mine is more in favor of a two speeds EU, with a core almost merging and peripheral states just following regulations.
Basically it'd be way better that Western European states concentrate on themselves rather than to expand the EU to Turkey or any other Bullshitistan.
I know reisey, I know:( One of my friends is looking into becoming a French and Irish citizen and I might do the same!

[Hermes]

That's more or less what they've been working towards ever since Jean Monnet. This has always been my primary objection against the EU.

Speaking as a Europhile I can see people's objection to "loss of sovereignty" and I think we do have to acknowledge that when we draw political borders somewhere other than the natural borders between various tribes trouble generally ensues.

On the other hand the world is becoming increasingly interdependent. News of BRexit caused instability in financial markets in asia which aren't even in the EU. Sub-primnt mortgage lending in the USA led to the UK government having to bail out its domestic banks. Sometimes it is worth being part of a force big enough to be reckoned with.

[Stronk Serb]

I know reisey, I know:( One of my friends is looking into becoming a French and Irish citizen and I might do the same!

For French citizenship, marry a French citizen or serve 5 years in the Foreign Legion. It's obvious which one is easier. Or if you have French relatives, see if you can get citizenship by being related to them.

[Judean Zealot]

Speaking as a Europhile I can see people's objection to "loss of sovereignty" and I think we do have to acknowledge that when we draw political borders somewhere other than the natural borders between various tribes trouble generally ensues.

On the other hand the world is becoming increasingly interdependent. News of BRexit caused instability in financial markets in asia which aren't even in the EU. Sub-primnt mortgage lending in the USA led to the UK government having to bail out its domestic banks. Sometimes it is worth being part of a force big enough to be reckoned with.

If the force in question is an FTA I am in hearty agreement; I am a strong proponent of free trade. If, however, you are talking of a legislative and fiscal bureaucracy (with talk of an army now, to boot), then I must fervently disagree. Political and legislative union between such divergent States such as those of Europe can lead only to disaster.

[Flapjack]

For French citizenship, marry a French citizen or serve 5 years in the Foreign Legion. It's obvious which one is easier. Or if you have French relatives, see if you can get citizenship by being related to them.
Joining the French legion would be crazy easy and good for them for having such an organization! I am not wasting 5 years doing that though and there is no way I am getting marriedXD

[dxcxdzv]

Joining the French legion would be crazy easy and good for them for having such an organization! I am not wasting 5 years doing that though and there is no way I am getting marriedXD
You can also live for 5 years in France with a regular situation (job, no prison, shit like that) after that you can ask for naturalization.
You also need a certain knowledge of the French language.

However the 5 years period can be reduced to 2 years if you gonna study, or if your profession has a major recognition (science, sport etc.) or if you contribute to the prestige of France.

Or as said by Stronk Serb if you serve a certain period in the Army you can ask for French citizenship.
It works also during war if you're from an allied.

Political and legislative union between such divergent States such as those of Europe can lead only to disaster.
What do you mean?

[Judean Zealot]

What do you mean?

I mean that the cultures and needs of such nations like the French and the Greeks or the Italians and the Poles differ to dramatically for European integration to successfully occur.

[dxcxdzv]

I mean that the cultures and needs of such nations like the French and the Greeks or the Italians and the Poles differ to dramatically for European integration to successfully occur.
And what would you qualify as "needs"?

[Judean Zealot]

And what would you qualify as "needs"?

Financial regulation, currency.

[dxcxdzv]

Financial regulation
You're stating that European banks and stock markets are fundamentally different?

currency
Though it's true that there has been a sort of conflict Germany Vs rest fo the Eurozone before Super Mario (Draghi) I assume your point here is that certain Eurozone countries need higher money supplies than others and/or certain Eurozone countries need a stronger currency than others. Am I right?

[Stronk Serb]

Joining the French legion would be crazy easy and good for them for having such an organization! I am not wasting 5 years doing that though and there is no way I am getting marriedXD

I wanted to join just for fun, but when I looked at the initial training... let's just say you will literally die in training so you do not die in a combat zone. I am planning on serving a voluntary tour here after I finish law school, just to get some starting money for my practice or something. If I go bankrupt or have no luck finding a job, I will likely go to the Foreign Legion or Donbass, or both. Donbass means I will not be able to return to Serbia for some time, at least until the case is deemed outdated by the court.

[Vlerchan]

Hermes:

That's the understanding of the law I have too. Where Britain has transposed the guidelines of directives into national law, these guidelines will persist as valid law up until the point they are repealed.

I'm also sure we'll see some quiet repeals but being as some of these directives surrounded consequential areas, I'm sure there will be some amount of debate.

though whether there was ever any official proclaimation I have no idea.
I believe French persisted as the official language of the court up until the 15th century* and it's fall from there could be easily equated with it's fall in England.

---

* Perhaps 14th century.

In this day and age, expanding beyond your nation-state is worse than ever.
There's no world power, or emerging power, that can be considered a nation-state in the traditional sense. Even China, which is broadly homogeneous, is home to considerable minorities when these are considered in numerical terms.

Think there's any merit to the idea that the EU will form a "superstate" in the aftermath of brexit?
No. Eurocrats aren't idiots and it is obvious that this isn't an opportune moment for the deepening of relations between states.

Though, I'm always very sceptical of everything the Daily Mail reports.

i) I assume your point here is that certain Eurozone countries need higher money supplies than others and/or certain Eurozone countries need a stronger currency than others.
European states wildly diverge as to their place in the business cycle, which makes it basically impossible insofar as crafting intelligent monetary policy is concerned.

I agree that there is no reason that financial regulation should necessarily differ, though.

[dxcxdzv]

European states wildly diverge as to their place in the business cycle, which makes it basically impossible insofar as crafting intelligent monetary policy is concerned.

Indeed, this problem was already mentioned at Maastricht.

Latest data I found on main European business cycles (http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/cycle_indicators/2015/pdf/ebci_1_en.pdf) show some countries are closer than others.
As long as you let national governments decide of their own budget i.e. their own fiscal policy you'll have this dilemma as a major threat.
Bringing closer some states together would probably help harmonize the business cycles.

Nice article about that btw (http://www.wifo.ac.at/jart/prj3/wifo/resources/person_dokument/person_dokument.jart?publikationsid=35922&mime_type=application/pdf). Started read it though.

Monetary union is still the best possible outcome to the Impossible Trinity.

EDIT:

English Summer, prepare for lower interest rates. (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/30/interest-rate-cut-likely-brexit-bank-of-england-mark-carney)
QE? Pound devaluation again? The bets are open and hawks begin to cry their ass out.

[Vlerchan]

Indeed, this problem was already mentioned at Maastricht.
The economics profession emphasised for years that it was never an optimal currency zone. For a while, it seemed that didn't matter. But now it's clear it really does.

As long as you let national governments decide of their own budget i.e. their own fiscal policy you'll have this dilemma as a major threat.
You might still maintain fiscal-autonomy where stabilisation transfers persisted, as happens in the United States, but there just isn't the political will.

One other issue is that there are still considerable cultural barriers that hinder labour-mobility, which itself acts to smooth any business cycle, and to some extent capital-mobility.

Nice article about that btw.
If I read it at the weekend, I'll offer my thoughts.

:)

Monetary union is still the best possible outcome to the Impossible Trinity.
I'd disagree. I would take free capital flows and monetary-autonomy to fixed exchange rates, any day.

[...] and hawks begin to cry their ass out.
I'm waiting for the sudden outpouring of fury on ProjectSyndicate by German economists.

[sqishy]

Not really. In this day and age, expanding beyond your nation-state is worse than ever. It's foolish unless uniting the same people. I am for all Serbs uniting under one banner. We would get Macedonia, Montenegro and the Republic of Srpska.

Alright then.

Would this also mean that you are in favour of a unified Kurdish population?
(Half off-topic, but just wondering.)


>English will not become an official language after Brexit, says senior MP
>English is not the official language of the country that invented it

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Thought that that was about English being an official language in the EU, not the UK (which is not actually true either).


Think there's any merit to the idea that the EU will form a "superstate" in the aftermath of brexit? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-European-superstate-France-Germany-draw-plans-morph-EU-countries-one-control-members-armies-economies.html)

Curious as to how accepting European posters here would be of such a proposition.

This is a big motivator for why I was in favour of the brexit.

TheFlapjack

:/

Vlerchan

Is it true that EU member states must export and import a certain distribution of products from other member states?
(Hope have not asked this already.)

[dxcxdzv]

You might still maintain fiscal-autonomy where stabilisation transfers persisted, as happens in the United States, but there just isn't the political will.
You mean it's rather considered irrelevant on a technical level or on a popular level?
"Political" is a tricky word, y'know.

One other issue is that there are still considerable cultural barriers that hinder labour-mobility, which itself acts to smooth any business cycle, and to some extent capital-mobility.
Friedman already made the claim before the creation of the Eurozone.
However wouldn't it be worth to help European labor-mobility to harmonize at, well, a European scale?
I must say that I am globally in favor of the European Project and am therefore quite in favor of anything that could lead to economically "pacify" the EU.
Other factors also contribute positively to the optimum currency such as GDP growth rates within the EU. A point argued in the article I linked and directly observable through other means.

But once again, an entity controlling the monetary policy but not the fiscal policy will have inevitably bad times.
By stabilization transfers you're speaking about automatic stabilizers?

If I read it at the weekend, I'll offer my thoughts.
Waitin' for them then!

I'd disagree. I would take free capital flows and monetary-autonomy to fixed exchange rates, any day.
I'm afraid I have a slight comprehension problem with "any day".
Do you mean "in any given situation" or are you speaking strictly temporally?
Are you also specifically talking about the Eurozone or does your thought can be extended to the rest of the world as well?

I'm waiting for the sudden outpouring of fury on ProjectSyndicate by German economists.
Haha x)

[Vlerchan]

This is a big motivator for why I was in favour of the brexit.
I see no reason to disconnect from the current state of affairs, on the basis of a possible state of affairs that the people have a veto over (deepening relations with the EU, requires a referendum, in Ireland).

You mean it's rather considered irrelevant on a technical level or on a popular level?
"Political" is a tricky word, y'know.
Popular.

Basically just look at the entire Greek debacle.

However wouldn't it be worth to help European labor-mobility to harmonize at, well, a European scale?
I believe this is what I'm saying. But the issue is cultural barriers, which seem broadly unassailable.


But once again, an entity controlling the monetary policy but not the fiscal policy will have inevitably bad times.
By stabilization transfers you're speaking about automatic stabilizers?
I imagine it was the case in pre-Euro France, but in all developed states I'm aware of, fiscal and monetary policies are controlled by constitutionally independent bodies. The issues isn't a lack of alignment between monetary and fiscal policies: esp. where monetary policy is set in response to fiscal policy. The issue is that, where there is multiple fiscal policies to account for - and these are built on different economic fundamentals - constructing a coherent monetary policy becomes difficult-to-impossible.

By I mean stabilisation transfers, I mean stimulative transfers from a central body. Of course, whether this is advisable without firm commitments to fiscal discipline in place, is questionable (and 'fiscal discipline', as accounting for more than just a balanced-budget).

I'm afraid I have a slight comprehension problem with "any day".
Sorry. The phrase is used to refer to an acceptance of something across any situation (though, in hindsight, it's poor phrasing, since under certain circumstances I might prefer divergences).

Are you also specifically talking about the Eurozone or does your thought can be extended to the rest of the world as well?
On reconsideration, it's appropriate for all states who aren't highly dependent on exports. However, even the power to remove a peg, and engage in monetary stimulus (to more from fixed-currency to policy-autonomy) is powerful in itself.

[Flapjack]

Sooooooooo the brexit has already had a negative effect on science:(
3wjKl4ZonDc

[sqishy]

I see no reason to disconnect from the current state of affairs, on the basis of a possible state of affairs that the people have a veto over (deepening relations with the EU, requires a referendum, in Ireland).


I did not intend to disconnect from the current state of affairs. By all means hold a referendum here, though it is very likely to be in favour of Remain.