Modeling and fashion

[britishboy]

Okay I was wondering why the crazy feminists do not like fashion and shows. In my opinion they're simply jealous of the women as after all the women chose to be a model, they're not forced! The argument that it must be stopped because the women are beautiful is also ridiculous, of course the women will be beautiful.. THEY'RE TRYING TO SELL CLOTHES, MAKE-UP, PERFUME etc, I blame the feminists jealousy.

[Miserabilia]

Are you kidding? What most people are angry about with modeling, is the huge amount of underweight models.
Have you seen an average model picture?
Most (or atleat alot) of them are skin and bones, which is dangerous for their health. It's a proffession for being underweight.

http://skinnymodelblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Model-on-Catwalk26.jpg

Women like that may look good in clothes, but they are probably all underweight and bony underneath.

[Tarannosaurus]

I'm a feminist. I'm not crazy. And I don't like fashion simply because it doesn't interest me. You can't lump all feminists together as one person, because we're not.

[britishboy]

Are you kidding? What most people are angry about with modeling, is the huge amount of underweight models.
Have you seen an average model picture?
Most (or atleat alot) of them are skin and bones, which is dangerous for their health. It's a proffession for being underweight.

image (http://skinnymodelblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Model-on-Catwalk26.jpg)

Women like that may look good in clothes, but they are probably all underweight and bony underneath.

Nobody is forcing them to model, nobody is forcing the public to watch it.

Skinny model blog, really?

[Miserabilia]

Nobody is forcing them to model, nobody is forcing the public to watch it.

Skinny model blog, really?

Just sayin', it's a good reason for people not to like the modeling buiseness.

[britishboy]

I'm a feminist. I'm not crazy. And I don't like fashion simply because it doesn't interest me. You can't lump all feminists together as one person, because we're not.

I put feminists in one of two categories. They're either crazy or they have legitimate concerns. Unfortunately the crazy ones draw attention from the normal ones.

If it doesn't interest you fair enough, my only problem is when people try to push their views on others

[Tarannosaurus]

I put feminists in one of two categories. They're either crazy or they have legitimate concerns. Unfortunately the crazy ones draw attention from the normal ones.

If it doesn't interest you fair enough, my only problem is when people try to push their views on others

But isn't that what you're doing putting it all in caps? Try to see it from the other point of view. Promoting underweightness is a very bad thing, those models smoke and take laxatives every day to help them lose weight faster and eat tissues (yes this is true) because they have fibre and no calories. Of course promoting overweightness instead isn't going to solve the problem, just create new ones.

[Typhlosion]

It's not feminist jealousy, it's their concern of objectifying women and supporting unrealistic standards. Models can be taken as health and beauty models that are degenerative to health if followed. Extremist feminists can be bad, but are not going to fight about women being pretty or not. They would fight about prettiness standards and being pretty/sexy/slutty for the opposing gender as a form of subjugation.

[Vlerchan]

Feminists don't like the fact that these extremely-skinny, I'd go as far to say dangerously-skinny in some cases, woman are being held as holding the 'ideal' form and the effect that has on young girls looking-on; see: contrary to popular belief feminists don't actually have an issue with woman choosing said look (or any look for that matter) but rather the pressure put on woman to choose said look (or any look for that matter.) It's the social-codes that force - or at least push - many woman into spending time, effort and money in an attempt to meet certain aesthetic principals as opposed the actual aesthetic principals themselves that are the problem here.

[The Trendy Wolf]

Okay I was wondering why the crazy feminists do not like fashion and shows. In my opinion they're simply jealous of the women as after all the women chose to be a model, they're not forced! The argument that it must be stopped because the women are beautiful is also ridiculous, of course the women will be beautiful.. THEY'RE TRYING TO SELL CLOTHES, MAKE-UP, PERFUME etc, I blame the feminists jealousy.

Many women believe that fashion competitions are insulting because they portray the female figure in an exploitative manner. Jealousy usually isn't the reason for their disliking of the shows, as they are often passionate for the female form and its natural beauty.

[Its Pretty]

Okay I was wondering why the crazy feminists do not like fashion and shows. In my opinion they're simply jealous of the women as after all the women chose to be a model, they're not forced! The argument that it must be stopped because the women are beautiful is also ridiculous, of course the women will be beautiful.. THEY'RE TRYING TO SELL CLOTHES, MAKE-UP, PERFUME etc, I blame the feminists jealousy.

I don't understand the question you are trying to ask :P It seems you have already answered it? Yes, some people are angry that women that are not in the greatest of health (probably both physical and mental) are being sold as beautiful. As Tarannosaurus has said, models go to extreme lengths to become skinny, and as you said, those women chose to live that dangerously unhealthy lifestyle. The fact that these women are encouraged to basically give up their health and become objects is the reason why some women become bitter and angry at it.


Personally, I don't see it as a problem (the usage of underweight females as advertising tools or the jealousy and atrocity other females are subjected to.)

[Karkat]

Call me a 'crazy feminist' if you will (I'm not even a radical feminist, and I place equality for every gender above feminism, but realize that it needs to exist) but there are quite a few things wrong with the modeling industry as it is.

-Standards: A lot of models are put through physical torture (to stay/get to a certain weight) and emotional torture (if they don't cut it, there's also the actual demands modeling takes up)

A lot of models are underweight or unhealthy.

-Objectification: It objectifies women and their bodies in general- not to mention that it gives the actual models the impression that without their looks, they are nothing.

-Message: THIS is the biggest one. Due to horribly proportioned models (because they're sick! They're unhealthy.), photoshop, etc. we women are told from a very young age that if we do not look "like that", we're ugly. Gross. Undesirable.

And worse yet- other women, men, our friends, families, coworkers and employers, random strangers, ANYONE is given the idea that they can tell us how we should look, or reject/shame us for not meeting their standards...Regardless of if we asked for their opinion, or if we 'pursued' them.

It's ok to prefer certain physical attributes over others. It's ok to choose whom you develop romantic relationships/etc with. It's NOT ok to randomly tell someone that they're fat/ugly/etc.

A lot of girls go to extremes to fit into society's mold, and if they live through it, they're emotionally scarred, and possibly very ill.

ALSO: MEN HAVE THIS PROBLEM AS WELL! It's different, but it's really not. Men are told to look a certain way as well, and they're also judged harshly for not looking a certain way. It can be just as bad if not worse than the female side of this.

I'm personally not jealous of any models at the moment. Maybe a LITTLE jealous of VS models' boobs, but that's a fleeting thing. I think every girl has boob envy in one direction or another from time to time.

However, I've been relentlessly harassed, bullied, abused, and even raped because of the way I look. I know plenty of girls (and guys!) who have as well, and I hate that the media just keeps on keepin on with no regard to reality.

[Vlerchan]

ALSO: MEN HAVE THIS PROBLEM AS WELL! It's different, but it's really not. Men are told to look a certain way as well, and they're also judged harshly for not looking a certain way. It can be just as bad if not worse than the female side of this. .

Men don't have it anywhere near as bad as woman do.

There's certain professions that might require us to appear professional but even then professional is basically just: any suit; black shoes; short- to medium-length style of hair; and that's about it - all of which can pretty much do us for life. Woman on the other hand are forced by social codes into constantly shifting clothing and hair styles, and even then they can still be criticized: the bustier lady who wears a tight fitting top is a slut; the lady in the short-ish skirt is a whore; the other lady in the long-ish skirt is a prude; etc., etc..

[Karkat]

Men don't have it anywhere near as bad as woman do.

There's certain professions that might require us to appear professional but even then professional is basically just: any suit; black shoes; short- to medium-length style of hair; and that's about it - all of which can pretty much do us for life. Woman on the other hand are forced by social codes into constantly shifting clothing and hair styles, and even then they can still be criticized: the bustier lady who wears a tight fitting top is a slut; the lady in the short-ish skirt is a whore; the other lady in the long-ish skirt is a prude; etc., etc..

...What?

I'm sorry, but is this coming from a male or female perspective?

Men aren't constantly told to cover up their legs or chests, no. And men are generally not criticized when it comes to fashion. They're not called sluts.

But they're absolutely criticized when it comes to their bodies. If they are not RIPPED with tight, bulging muscles on every inch of their body, they're told they're "undesirable", "weak", "gross". If they're too short, they're mocked. If they look feminine, or dress a certain way, they are 'accused' of being gay regardless of their actual sexual orientation, and sometimes bullied. (Ah, which in a perfect world shouldn't be a problem, but there is discrimination against gays by some, not to mention the fact that if he actually was STRAIGHT, if girls believed he was gay, he's no longer even an option to date.) Men too have the pressure to stay thin, as society tends to be more accepting of women who are curvy/heavier as being attractive- chubby guys are most like just seen as chubby guys. There are some (me for instance), that actually like guys who aren't skin and bones/totally 'ripped', but it's so rare. Hairstyles are also a problem for men, as most workplaces will either not hire a man with long hair, or they will make him cut it off. You find no such 'hairstyle' discrimination for women- with the exception of natural hairstyles that are 'distracting' like cornrows, kinky hair, etc. And that's a POC thing, not really a woman thing. That affects men as well.

Men actually have it fairly bad. They don't have as much active pressure like women do- women are ATTACKED if they don't uphold to society's standards. Men are usually just ignored or exiled, in a social sense. In my experience, it's usually teenage boys over teenage girls who feel that no one will ever be attracted to them, or want them. And they'll usually feel that way for a lot longer, they usually get their first relationships later, lose their virginity later, etc. And that's usually not because they're not nice, or even wonderful guys, it's usually that they're deemed "unattractive" from a pretty young age. A lot of girls are deemed "unattractive" as well, but sometimes they're better accepted when they wear makeup, or dress in tighter clothing. (depending on their body shape) Men don't really have those kinds of options. They can work out/build muscle/get fit/etc, they can get more attractive clothes, or they can get a haircut. They can't alter their looks like women can as much.

I wouldn't say that women are required to 'constantly change clothing or hairstyles', unless you're looking to land a date or you're in high school, clothing choices don't matter nearly as much in the real world as far as trends go. And typically women do not get called prudes off of clothing alone- it can happen, but it's easily ignored for most. Women do have a very real problem of being called "sluts" because of the way they dress-if they're raped and they have a habit of wearing more revealing clothing, they're literally told it's their fault. The interesting thing about breasts is that if they're over a certain size, you get accused of them being fake. In fact, most busty women get accused of being "vain" or "sluts", because it gives off the impression that they have implants or augmentation. The exception to this would be obese women, or women who have breasts that don't stand out much proportionally. I've faced this problem. I'm really not that big, but my boyfriend's dad even accused me of having fake breasts. (which is funny, because where is a 17 year old going to get that kind of money?)

Women have a lot of 'standards' thrown at them for their dress and their bodies, and women are criticized a TON, but men are actually criticized a fair amount as well, men have eating disorders as well, men can have negative body image due to society's standards as well. And I think a lot of people tend to forget that, or glaze over their problems because we don't hear about the boys who starve themselves to look thin, or the boys who self-harm or commit suicide because they hate their bodies. The boys who never feel like their bodies are good enough.

But they're out there.

[Vlerchan]

I'm sorry, but is this coming from a male or female perspective?

Male.

Because guys can be feminists too. (Strange, I know.)

And men are generally not criticized when it comes to fashion.

... which is sort of what I was mainly focusing on, though I'll give your points a quick run-through anyway.

If they are not RIPPED with tight, bulging muscles on every inch of their body, they're told they're "undesirable", "weak", "gross". If they're too short, they're mocked.

In what universe?

This isn't actually all that common; most guys are are not 'RIPPED' and covered in 'tight, bulging muscles on every inch of their body' so criticism of this kind tends to be rare. It's almost non-existent once one reaches adulthood - the girl with large breasts tends to be picked-out until she's in her forties.

If they're too short, they're mocked.

This is applicable to both sexes; it's not just a male-specific criticism as you seem to be trying to make out.

If they look feminine, or dress a certain way, they are 'accused' of being gay regardless of their actual sexual orientation, and sometimes bullied.

This is more a criticism of societies perception of the LGBT community as opposed to men, you actually note this yourself when you say: "but there is discrimination against gays by some."

[...] if girls believed he was gay, he's no longer even an option to date.)

If I believed that a girl was not interested in me or anyone else of my sex I wouldn't be making much of an attempt to pursue them either. I don't blame girls for not pursuing men who they don't believe are - or can - be (sexually; romantically) interested in them.

Men too have the pressure to stay thin, as society tends to be more accepting of women who are curvy/heavier as being attractive - chubby guys are most like just seen as chubby guys.

Fat-Shaming is a much bigger problem among and with woman. It happens with guys but not to near the same extent (from my experience).

This also seems to be more based on how (sexually-active) woman perceive men; my points where to do with how society-as-a-whole perceive woman.

Hairstyles are also a problem for men, as most workplaces will either not hire a man with long hair, or they will make him cut it off. You find no such 'hairstyle' discrimination for women- with the exception of natural hairstyles that are 'distracting' like cornrows, kinky hair, etc. And that's a POC thing, not really a woman thing. That affects men as well.

Key phrase: as well.

This also has more to do with employers wanting their employees to look professional in a professional setting as opposed to any form of gender-discrimination. It's when the bustier woman is not allowed to wear her favorite v-neck sweatshirt to work because the boss sees it as 'slutty' is when I start to see a problem.

Men actually have it fairly bad. They don't have as much active pressure like women do- women are ATTACKED if they don't uphold to society's standards. Men are usually just ignored or exiled, in a social sense. In my experience, it's usually teenage boys over teenage girls who feel that no one will ever be attracted to them, or want them. And they'll usually feel that way for a lot longer, they usually get their first relationships later, lose their virginity later, etc. And that's usually not because they're not nice, or even wonderful guys, it's usually that they're deemed "unattractive" from a pretty young age. A lot of girls are deemed "unattractive" as well, but sometimes they're better accepted when they wear makeup, or dress in tighter clothing. (depending on their body shape) Men don't really have those kinds of options. They can work out/build muscle/get fit/etc, they can get more attractive clothes, or they can get a haircut. They can't alter their looks like women can as much.[1]

I wouldn't say that women are required to 'constantly change clothing or hairstyles', unless you're looking to land a date or you're in high school, clothing choices don't matter nearly as much in the real world as far as trends go[2]. And typically women do not get called prudes off of clothing alone- it can happen, but it's easily ignored for most. Women do have a very real problem of being called "sluts" because of the way they dress-if they're raped and they have a habit of wearing more revealing clothing, they're literally told it's their fault[3]. The interesting thing about breasts is that if they're over a certain size, you get accused of them being fake. In fact, most busty women get accused of being "vain" or "sluts", because it gives off the impression that they have implants or augmentation. The exception to this would be obese women, or women who have breasts that don't stand out much proportionally. I've faced this problem. I'm really not that big, but my boyfriend's dad even accused me of having fake breasts. (which is funny, because where is a 17 year old going to get that kind of money?)

You make decent points here and I do recognize that teenage boys can get a hard time over what they look like and what not - though just as bad as teenage girls I'd argue - though I'd put that down to teenagers being teenagers (read: stupid.) It's different as to what I'm trying to put across which lasts a life time. I'm going to address some individual points now:

[1]: Whilst boys tend to be criticized for the way they were born, girls tend to be criticized for the way they were born and actions they take to change their image - wearing certain clothing, etc. That's what I see as the big difference here.

[2]: Let's us put it this way: I've been basically wearing one of the three same pairs of chinos to parties (and whatnot) for the last 18 months or so. Nobody cares.

[3]: This sin't as common here as it is in the states, but yeah: it's beyond awful.

[...] but men are actually criticized a fair amount as well ...
... though, not nearly as much as woman and most criticisms don't come about specifically because they are men.

[AlexOnToast]

I'm male and consider myself a feminist. The reason I dislike fashion-related media is because of the promotion of unhealthy body self-imagery.

[Karkat]

Male.

Because guys can be feminists too. (Strange, I know.)

You seem to imply that I don't think men can be feminists. I actually know quite a few who are.


In what universe?

This isn't actually all that common; most guys are are not 'RIPPED' and covered in 'tight, bulging muscles on every inch of their body' so criticism of this kind tends to be rare. It's almost non-existent once one reaches adulthood - the girl with large breasts tends to be picked-out until she's in her forties.

Actually, where I'm from, it's the battle of the beefiest. Literally. If you're not ripped, you're not good enough. If you don't have abs or muscular arms, you're treated as a 'nerd' type, or seen as weak.


Fat-Shaming is a much bigger problem among and with woman. It happens with guys but not to near the same extent (from my experience).

Fat-shaming is more actively addressed among women- you hear more about the girls who call each other fat, or the guys who 'wouldn't date her because she's too fat', however I've seen far more self-confident and self-accepting girls who are a little heavier than guys who are. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a heavier guy who was confident in his body.


Key phrase: as well.

This also has more to do with employers wanting their employees to look professional in a professional setting as opposed to any form of gender-discrimination. It's when the bustier woman is not allowed to wear her favorite v-neck sweatshirt to work because the boss sees it as 'slutty' is when I start to see a problem.

So culture isn't professional? It should be hidden? Most people with kinky hair/fros really can't control their hair. They either shave it, or it's painstaking if they try to control it. It's their natural hair one way or another.

The show Eli Stone actually incorporates a black lawyer with an afro, and the criticisms he meets for it, and I think it's tastefully done. The actor's appearance IS professional- if he was to be a lawyer in the real world, I'd see absolutely no problem with it.

Besides, it's not just in the work environment. It's in schools as well, unfortunately.

You make decent points here and I do recognize that teenage boys can get a hard time over what they look like and what not - though just as bad as teenage girls I'd argue - though I'd put that down to teenagers being teenagers (read: stupid.) It's different as to what I'm trying to put across which lasts a life time. [...]

It's not just teenagers. It's less so in adults, but I know plenty of adult men with serious body issues. A lot of it is due to not being able to find a romantic partner and thinking there's something 'wrong with them', I think, but my boyfriend hasn't been a teenager for a few years, and he still has SERIOUS body issues. And they worry me.

I'm a feminist, but not so long as male problems are ignored. In fact, I'm generally for equality between all the genders (as I am Trans*), over feminism. I don't disapprove of it- I personally have many reasons why I support it, but I'm not going to undermine one gender's issues while they still exist just because another needs more attention. If you had two kids, one of them was struggling with their homework for that day, and one had been bullied that day, would you ignore the one who needed help with their homework and leave them to fend for themselves? If you're a good parent you wouldn't. A problem is a problem, even if it isn't widely known or far-reaching. Sure, there are priorities, but that doesn't mean you go off abandoning issues just because a bigger one arises.

[Harry Smith]

You seem to imply that I don't think men can be feminists. I actually know quite a few who are.




Actually, where I'm from, it's the battle of the beefiest. Literally. If you're not ripped, you're not good enough. If you don't have abs or muscular arms, you're treated as a 'nerd' type, or seen as weak.




Fat-shaming is more actively addressed among women- you hear more about the girls who call each other fat, or the guys who 'wouldn't date her because she's too fat', however I've seen far more self-confident and self-accepting girls who are a little heavier than guys who are. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a heavier guy who was confident in his body.




So culture isn't professional? It should be hidden? Most people with kinky hair/fros really can't control their hair. They either shave it, or it's painstaking if they try to control it. It's their natural hair one way or another.

The show Eli Stone actually incorporates a black lawyer with an afro, and the criticisms he meets for it, and I think it's tastefully done. The actor's appearance IS professional- if he was to be a lawyer in the real world, I'd see absolutely no problem with it.

Besides, it's not just in the work environment. It's in schools as well, unfortunately.



It's not just teenagers. It's less so in adults, but I know plenty of adult men with serious body issues. A lot of it is due to not being able to find a romantic partner and thinking there's something 'wrong with them', I think, but my boyfriend hasn't been a teenager for a few years, and he still has SERIOUS body issues. And they worry me.

I'm a feminist, but not so long as male problems are ignored. In fact, I'm generally for equality between all the genders (as I am Trans*), over feminism. I don't disapprove of it- I personally have many reasons why I support it, but I'm not going to undermine one gender's issues while they still exist just because another needs more attention. If you had two kids, one of them was struggling with their homework for that day, and one had been bullied that day, would you ignore the one who needed help with their homework and leave them to fend for themselves? If you're a good parent you wouldn't. A problem is a problem, even if it isn't widely known or far-reaching. Sure, there are priorities, but that doesn't mean you go off abandoning issues just because a bigger one arises.

The point you seem to be making is that men too can have body issues-something I agree with.

However I'd argue that with our western culture it has a much more damaging effect upon women. The idea about office attire was pretty good because it represents two very brands of sexism-economic and cultural.

And If I did have these two kids I'd focus my attention on the one that's being bullied-that's a much more important issues and requires more attention. That's just common sense

[Vlerchan]

You seem to imply that I don't think men can be feminists. I actually know quite a few who are.

I meant it more as a joke than anything.

You did seem rather disbelieving in your previous post, though.

Actually, where I'm from, it's the battle of the beefiest. Literally. If you're not ripped, you're not good enough. If you don't have abs or muscular arms, you're treated as a 'nerd' type, or seen as weak.

Yeah. It's different here (East Ireland). Like, big abs (and whatnot) are still look on positively though there's not a huge fuss over who has them and who doesn't.

I presume that people in your area grow out of glorifying big abs (and whatnot) though; it's more of a thing associated with teenagers and those in their early-twenties than anything else.

So culture isn't professional? It should be hidden? Most people with kinky hair/fros really can't control their hair. They either shave it, or it's painstaking if they try to control it. It's their natural hair one way or another.

I didn't say it was right. I just said it was a gender-neutral thing.

Besides, it's not just in the work environment. It's in schools as well, unfortunately.
We'd a no-hair-below-your-shoulders rule in our (all-boys) primary school though they're pretty lenient at my (similarly all-boys) secondary school; you can wear your hair whatever way you want. You're right here, though: it's pretty ridiculous for school teachers to attempt to dictate the appearance of their students.

I'm a feminist, but not so long as male problems are ignored. In fact, I'm generally for equality between all the genders [...]

feminism (n):the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

Same.

I recognize that there's problems that males have to confront too. I just feel that they are not as pressing as those faced by woman.

[Karkat]

The point you seem to be making is that men too can have body issues-something I agree with.

However I'd argue that with our western culture it has a much more damaging effect upon women. The idea about office attire was pretty good because it represents two very brands of sexism-economic and cultural.

And If I did have these two kids I'd focus my attention on the one that's being bullied-that's a much more important issues and requires more attention. That's just common sense

Yes, it arguably affects women more, however downplaying men's issues not only leads to the view that sexism is misandrist and exclusive, but it doesn't do a thing for men aside from invalidate the ones who are invalidated further.

Arguably transpeople* are more affected than women. They're less accepted, heavily discriminated against, sometimes killed or jailed for their identity. Women face a lot of issues, but they're hardly as severe as those transpeople face, especially in middle eastern or African countries. Women are at least generally allowed to exist in those cultures- though their treatment is inhumane to put it KINDLY.

Arguing that women's issues are essentially the only issues that need to be addressed at all (at least in a general sense) is not so much equal as it is radical. You can't be for equality and snub two entire other groups that face problems. Significance doesn't really matter, and like I said, clearly significance is not an issue, or we would most likely be discussing transpeople- not women.

And as for the children metaphor, ok, let's rephrase it.

Let's say one is a low-functioning autistic while the other has a hard time making friends, and has dyslexia. Are you going to focus on the autistic child and entirely isolate the one with the milder problems? Are you going to essentially tell them that it's "no big deal", and leave them to work things out on their own?

I made the mistake of bringing in a 'daily' sort of scenario. Sure, the kid might get a low grade. They might be stressed out the next day. Nbd to you, I guess. Bullying is certainly a far bigger issue when the two are weighed, but priority doesn't necessarily mean exclusivity. If I was the parent of those two children, I'd damn well make sure that both were taken care of to the best of my abilities. If nothing else, I'd pull the child who was being bullied out of school the next day so the broader-reaching issue could be faced in an appropriate time frame- bullying never changes overnight. I wouldn't ignore them, but I'd make sure that homework troubles were taken care of as well. Even if it had to be done before school the next day or something. But this is mostly irrelevant.

The point I was trying to make is that you can't just exclude every other group that faces problems because one group faces a lot of them. You can fully support that group and prioritize when necessary without abandoning everything else.

I mean, arguably that'd mean only LGBT relationships should be focused on, and any problems interfaith, interracial, LDRs, heterosexual couples, or dating singles face should be thrown by the wayside and disregarded, because generally they do not face as many problems as LGBT couples. And that's rather asinine.

You can support something, it doesn't mean that you should argue that that thing is the only issue that exists, or that other groups should be ignored, for that matter, is what I'm trying to say.



I presume that people in your area grow out of glorifying big abs (and whatnot) though; it's more of a thing associated with teenagers and those in their early-twenties than anything else.

Generally speaking the men do. The women really don't. Which is actually kind of strange, but where I live is pretty backwards and messed up to begin with. I literally can't stand about 70% of the people here.


[...]I recognize that there's problems that males have to confront too. I just feel that they are not as pressing as those faced by woman.

Well from my understanding there is absolutely a difference between general belief in gender equality and feminism- feminism being focused on women, and such. My main issue with feminism doesn't actually have to do with feminism so much as "feminists" who try to distort feminism to cater to their misandrist/homophobic/racist agenda. That and when feminists entirely invalidate the issues of other genders.

I'm in the same boat with you, I just don't think men's problems should be ignored or taken lightly. That's really just what I'm getting at.

[Sydneyy]

I'm not a feminist. I love models but I don't like how they are skin and bones

[britishboy]

Call me a 'crazy feminist' if you will (I'm not even a radical feminist, and I place equality for every gender above feminism, but realize that it needs to exist) but there are quite a few things wrong with the modeling industry as it is.

-Standards: A lot of models are put through physical torture (to stay/get to a certain weight) and emotional torture (if they don't cut it, there's also the actual demands modeling takes up)

A lot of models are underweight or unhealthy.

-Objectification: It objectifies women and their bodies in general- not to mention that it gives the actual models the impression that without their looks, they are nothing.

-Message: THIS is the biggest one. Due to horribly proportioned models (because they're sick! They're unhealthy.), photoshop, etc. we women are told from a very young age that if we do not look "like that", we're ugly. Gross. Undesirable.

And worse yet- other women, men, our friends, families, coworkers and employers, random strangers, ANYONE is given the idea that they can tell us how we should look, or reject/shame us for not meeting their standards...Regardless of if we asked for their opinion, or if we 'pursued' them.

It's ok to prefer certain physical attributes over others. It's ok to choose whom you develop romantic relationships/etc with. It's NOT ok to randomly tell someone that they're fat/ugly/etc.

A lot of girls go to extremes to fit into society's mold, and if they live through it, they're emotionally scarred, and possibly very ill.

ALSO: MEN HAVE THIS PROBLEM AS WELL! It's different, but it's really not. Men are told to look a certain way as well, and they're also judged harshly for not looking a certain way. It can be just as bad if not worse than the female side of this.

I'm personally not jealous of any models at the moment. Maybe a LITTLE jealous of VS models' boobs, but that's a fleeting thing. I think every girl has boob envy in one direction or another from time to time.

However, I've been relentlessly harassed, bullied, abused, and even raped because of the way I look. I know plenty of girls (and guys!) who have as well, and I hate that the media just keeps on keepin on with no regard to reality.

I can understand why feminists think it is objectification but I strongly disagree. Is this a problem?
http://www.bigotvanquisher.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/male-objectification.jpg
No but if the women was nude and the man was clothed there would be uproar!

I'm sorry to tell you this but it is a fact of life. Society will always consider certain things beautiful and if you're not those you're not beautiful.

I know men can have body issues, I do myself. I need to bulk up and be more masculine but I am not angry at those men that are the best looking! If you don't like yourself change yourself or live with it because hating those better than you doesn't make you any better. (That wasn't aimed at you but a general statement)

I am sorry to hear what has happened to you but that is just life. If somebody wants to be mean, they will be mean nobody reads a magazine and then insults everyone for not looking like the models.

[Karkat]

I can understand why feminists think it is objectification but I strongly disagree. Is this a problem?
http://www.bigotvanquisher.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/male-objectification.jpg
No but if the women was nude and the man was clothed there would be uproar!

I'm sorry to tell you this but it is a fact of life. Society will always consider certain things beautiful and if you're not those you're not beautiful.

I know men can have body issues, I do myself. I need to bulk up and be more masculine but I am not angry at those men that are the best looking! If you don't like yourself change yourself or live with it because hating those better than you doesn't make you any better. (That wasn't aimed at you but a general statement)

I am sorry to hear what has happened to you but that is just life. If somebody wants to be mean, they will be mean nobody reads a magazine and then insults everyone for not looking like the models.

That's actually exactly how it works among women. You get insulted for not looking like a magazine model. By both males and females really. And in the actual 'industry', I am considered overweight, even though I am several pounds underweight. Tell me THAT doesn't present a problem.

The media has a lot to do with body image. That's not even how society defines beauty, it's just how they're brainwashed to define beauty. None of it is even real, healthy, etc. The media has been used to make unhealthy fashion standards (and sometimes even fatal ones) for both men and women ever since media was a thing. Look back at the 1800s with corsets and cages and starched collars and mercury hats. (All of which can be fatal.) Are you trying to argue that the media has no effect on beauty standards? Because you'd be completely wrong.

What society considers beautiful without the media isn't even an issue at this point, because society is totally influenced by media. Sure, there are some places certain people's tastes differ from the media, but beauty isn't even a concrete thing to be defined by. That's like saying that no one is capable of being beautiful unless everything about their body is perfect, and that's utter bullshit. That's like saying you can't be beautiful unless society says you are. WELL WHERE THE HECK WOULD SOCIETY GET THIS PICTURE OF 'BEAUTIFUL' IN THE FIRST PLACE? THE MEDIA.

Besides, it's perfectly possible to be seen as beautiful if you do not measure up to the media's standards. Because once again, BEAUTY IS SUBJECTIVE. IT DOES NOT EXIST AS A CONCRETE MOLD. If you insist that beauty is some sort of concrete, definable scale, and one must meet all requirements in order to be 'beautiful', that means no one is. No one in society is beautiful, and the word in the context of humans should be thrown out because that would make it useless. The media doesn't even have a hold on what ALL beauty is defined by- there are plenty of audiences who appreciate inclusion of minorities. And they can be beautiful. Just because the media says something goes, it doesn't necessarily mean that it goes for everyone. Are you trying to tell me that beauty as defined by the individual is irrelevant? Because that would mean that only the media's view of beauty counts. You CANNOT say that society defines beauty and act as if it's an absolute thing and then say the media has no effect on what is considered beautiful. You're literally contradicting yourself. The media has influence over pretty much every aspect of society. Arguably, it's the epitome of society. It practically IS society. Trying to separate society from the media in the DIGITAL era is a little asinine.

I don't see how making a woman be a certain size and completely control her life without taking her health and feelings into consideration (because they don't) not objectifying. I don't get how that's treating them any better than an object. They don't treat models as human beings. Male or female. They treat them as moving mannequins, that's all, really. Tell me how that is NOT objectification.

Also, I'd like to point out that generally people with body issues do not hate those better than them. They IDOLIZE those better than them. They WORSHIP those better than them. They ENVY those better than them. They hate THEMSELVES. Self-hate and poor body image go together like the media and society. Generally one is not present without the other. It can happen, but it's pretty rare.

"I am sorry to hear what has happened to you but that is just life."

I have a hard time finding this sentence to be without sexism.

Ok for one thing, I was physically abused, molested/sexually abused, and RAPED because of the way I look. I'm a light skinned Mexican girl. I was a trophy to be obtained. Do all Mexicans think this way? Oh absolutely not. No. No to my knowledge, this was entirely exclusive to him, but that doesn't change his motives. He made his motives CRYSTAL CLEAR. I was my boyfriend's achievement. He thought landing someone who was pale, but not entirely a white girl made him better than everyone else, and he thought having power over me, and intimidating me, and making me his bitch made him top dog. And it did among his friends. Soon enough he resorted to raping me. He wanted to steal my virginity, because that was the final prize to be had. He manipulated me some more, and ditched me, telling me how filthy and ugly and fat I was. He convinced me that I was pregnant, and tried to convince me to agree to being engaged to him, and then he told me that it was a lie. He went and knocked up someone else WHILE he was torturing me, and then he ran off with her.

I was 13. I wasn't even in high school yet.

If you don't consider THAT a problem, I honestly don't know what to say to you. The issues I have faced because of the way I look have not just been "mean", they've been cruel, oppressing, and traumatizing. And not all of it has to do with my skin color. I've been harassed due to my curvy figure by random men on the street. I've been harassed by ex boyfriends for the way my body looks. "Why can't you be like a Victoria's Secret model?" Oh, hmm, let me think- I was barely in the middle stages of puberty and I was grossly underweight due to alcoholism. And I was fairly big up top for my age. I was like a 32 D at 14.

I've been harassed because of my height and broad shoulders, accused of 'having a dick' or being transgender. There's nothing wrong with being transgender, but when you are bullied for it, when you're BEATEN up for "being a tranny" or "not acting like a man" when you're NOT EVEN BIOLOGICALLY MALE, it becomes a problem.

When you're told that you're "fat" or a "disgusting pig" because you weigh more than the average female and wear larger sizes of clothing due to your HEIGHT, but you're underweight, it becomes a problem.

When you're told that you look "too boyish to be a girl" but you're "too ugly to be a boy", it becomes a problem.

When you're Trans* and you're afraid of expressing yourself because you "look ugly as a guy", it becomes a problem.

When you're fetishized or sexually harassed by strangers because of your gender identity, or your figure, it becomes a problem. And being harassed by random men due to your figure happens to A LOT of women. You might be flat as a board and still get catcalled because someone perceives that you might have a vagina. They aren't even thinking about you as a person, they're thinking about you as a sex object, and I can't think of anything creepier.

AND THESE ARE JUST MY PROBLEMS. THIS DOES NOT EVEN TOUCH WHAT DARKER WOMEN OF COLOR FACE, OR WHAT OVERWEIGHT OR EVEN 'CHUBBY' BUT HEALTHY WOMEN FACE. This does not touch what my friends, my family, my boyfriend have had to face for the way they look.

Saying that people who judge you because of the way you look are just something you have to live with is so passive and ignorant. The point being that this is not the way society should be. That's like saying "well rape happens, but you just have to live with it, because there will always be rapists out there". NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Do they exist? YES. Should we empower them? ABSOLUTELY NOT. You can choose not to support someone's rights. Whatever. I guess I can't force you to. But you do NOT have to mock someone for supporting what they believe is right, and calling society out on its bullshit. That makes you part of the problem. I shouldn't have to deal with the way I was, and still am treated because of the way I look. The past has happened, yes. You can't change the past. But if you try to bring others down for standing up in what they believe in, the world will only get worse with time. You have to stand up for what you believe in. Even if you never make a difference, maybe you'll influence someone who will.

You may not HAVE the struggles of being a woman. That doesn't mean that you have to water them down or insist that it isn't a problem. Just like I don't believe that feminists should water down men's struggles, and insist that they're irrelevant, or they don't exist. Or the problems of the Trans* community.

EVERY GENDER HAS ITS OWN STRUGGLES. IN FACT, JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING HAS ITS OWN STRUGGLES. SOCIETY MAKES LIFE HARD FOR EVERYONE WHO IS NOT PERFECT OR DAMN CLOSE. IT DOESN'T MEAN THE STRUGGLES ARE IRRELEVANT OR SHOULD BE IGNORED.

I can only hope that half of this never occurred to you, I mean ignorance usually comes out of misinformation, or lack of information. That's ok, we learn as we go. But I can't fathom how someone could've known all of this and still came out with the response that you did.