Controvercy over bathroom use

[cleancut]

We had a talk about this at School in P.E. The coaches said that regardless of sexual preference that if you have "boy parts" then you go to the bathroom in the boy's bathroom as well as dress in the boys locker room. They always have the showers open if someone wants to use it after a work out (but it isn't used very often), but they said that boys use boys shower as well. I guess they said the same thing to the girls.

They said that it doesn't matter if a gay guy sees you dress and to not be homophobic because they may feel uncomfortable about it too.

What do you think?

[West Coast Sheriff]

I do NOT see every girl attractive. I'm sorry but, not every girl can peak an interest in me. Gay guys certainly feel the same way. Not every guy is attractive. So, I see absolutely no problem with a gay guy using the men's locker room. In fact, he should only be using the men's locker room.

For those who identify with a gender other than what they were assigned at birth:

Use a family restroom in a crowded place. If it's at school, the faculty should provide access to the faculty restroom. Guys should not use the girls restroom. Girls should not use the guys restroom (that is very unsafe in my opinion).

Many small businesses have one person restrooms. I've used the ladies restroom when I can't wait because someone has been taking a long shit in the men's. In those small restrooms that allow one person per time, then it makes no difference what restroom a person uses.

In a large Walmart or School bathroom, I believe people should adhere to the genders they were assigned at birth or use a gender neutral restroom. (Maybe greedy corporate people invest in gender neutral restrooms).

Gay guys should feel no pressure about undressing in front of straight guys. It's saddening, that strait guys would feel any sort of homophobia around gay guys. Men all have the same body parts and it's no big deal to see each other naked or in underwear. I may have strayed off topic a tad, but the purpose was to enforce why people should adhere to their proper bathroom.

[ECSTASY]

Thats right . Cause we are gay , that doesn't mean that we all look at random guys bodies while taking a shower .
My friends are comfortable when we sleep together even though they know I'm gay .

[Vermilion]

You couldn't tell if a guy is gay or not for sure without asking. Why does it matter if they are straight bi or gay ? You are all boys so it shouldn't matter. Your school is doing the right thing. You shouldn't single out people.

[Abhorrence]

Eh, I disagree with the having a dick means you use the guys' locker room and vice versa for people with vaginas. That is basically erasing their gender identity, which could be psychologically harmful to them.

My old school had a trans* boy and he used a separate changing room to everyone else to make him feel more comfortable but he did guys' PE. I think it was good of my school to do that.

[Bluebyrd]

Like people have said, just because you're gay doesn't mean you find every boy attractive and even if there is someone that you find attractive, people tend to have the decency to not stare. I don't understand the whole thing where straight people feel awkward around gay people because they feel like they might be into them. Seriously, straight people don't find all girls attractive so why do they think it's like that for gay people.

[northy]

I feel uncomfortable in male changing rooms, but would not want to be segregated because I'm gay. I usually opt for the cubicles and have been known to change in a toilet before now because I feel like I'm going to stare and get caught and then probably punched. As above, no, not every man is attractive and I expect straight people feel the same way.
Personally, I like the leisure centre near where I live, where it is all gender neutral changing. I think that is the way forward as it allows people to be who they want to be.

[StoppingTom]

Why do people use the argument that "Oh, a trans-guy could be in danger if they use the guys bathroom/locker room" and vice versa? You're basically just saying, "Yeah, our kids could totally rape/hurt someone else" instead of educating them on what it means to be trans. Also, you use those facilities to either take a dump or get out of your sweaty gym clothes, there's very little sexy time going on in those kinds of places.

[Uniquemind]

Eh more privacy the better.

Make another bathroom, it's not like schools don't need them with all the plumbing problems, or the occasional stink stench from pranks...rendering parts of the campus dead zones for a few days because of the smell.

Bathrooms also have no air circulation they get that weird smell, does anybody else notice that?

[pjones]

i'm bi and don't look at every boy in my pe class when we change or shower. the majority of the class is straight and i know more of them look at me than i do them, just plain curiosity. your school may not be able to accommodate trans gender students so they have set a policy that defines who uses what facilities is all.

[Hermes]

I wonder what would happen if a school did allow gay guys to use the girls changing rooms and showers? Presumably you'd justify it by saying a gay guy wouldn't be turned on by looking at the girls so he wouldn't look? Do you think that would make the girls feel comfortable? Would they look at the gay guy? After all him being gay wouldn't stop them being curious.

I reckon stop worrying. Those doing the looking are the ones that risk getting hard.

[ska8er]

Guys use mens showers and girls-girls that's the
way it has always been. If u r not comfortable with
it then don't shower at all public. Is it gonna come
to asking everyone do they have a preference?

[lliam]

just vote for unisex bathrooms. problem solved.

[ptz7649]

That's really bad. I think you should use the gender room that's your gender

[heresjohnny]

It's my understanding that some bathrooms (mainly in Europe??) are one big room with individual closet-sized rooms with a toilet. Sinks could be common or in the private stalls. The walls between toilets go all the way between the floor and ceiling. In other words, no one can look in on you.

Yeah, it's totally fine to use the other restroom as long as it's a private "one person at a time" situation.

If someone wants to use a faculty restroom, honestly, I don't see the big deal. It's probably better than taking five more minutes to walk down to the main restroom and five minutes to walk back. I suppose that's best left up to each school though.

If you think about it, how many of us have been in a public restroom and a parent or "big sibling" has taken their young child/sibling in with them? Say a three-year-old girl goes into the men's locker room with her dad. That's fine because society has deemed her too young to really comprehend what's going on. If dad wants to change them in a private area, there's usually a place in a locker room. Some locker rooms have private changing areas, or there's always a back corner somewhere.

Maybe someone in Europe can confirm/deny my first paragraph.

[SethfromMI]

Eh, I disagree with the having a dick means you use the guys' locker room and vice versa for people with vaginas. That is basically erasing their gender identity, which could be psychologically harmful to them.

My old school had a trans* boy and he used a separate changing room to everyone else to make him feel more comfortable but he did guys' PE. I think it was good of my school to do that.

giving him his own room to change in is more appropriate than saying if you have a dick but think your a girl then go into the ladies locker room. how is that supposed to make the women feel? I can't say I know what it is like to struggle with those thoughts, because I don't, but does one persons level of comfort out weigh everyone else?

also what happens when you get a guy who says, "oh, I am a girl" just to go and stare out the girls. are they going to be able to "prove" without a doubt he is not lying?

alternative rooms (in your school case giving the kid his own) is the right choice.

[Desuetude]

giving him his own room to change in is more appropriate than saying if you have a dick but think your a girl then go into the ladies locker room. how is that supposed to make the women feel? I can't say I know what it is like to struggle with those thoughts, because I don't, but does one persons level of comfort out weigh everyone else?

also what happens when you get a guy who says, "oh, I am a girl" just to go and stare out the girls. are they going to be able to "prove" without a doubt he is not lying?

alternative rooms (in your school case giving the kid his own) is the right choice.
Why would someone go through the whole social outcast and potential shunning by their peers by saying they're trans just to stare at the opposite sex a couple times a week? Are people that fucking desperate? If said guy then went around and bragged about it saying he's not actually trans I'm sure someone on staff would hear about it and he'd get in trouble. It's really bloody unlikely that someone is going to fake being trans just to get into the changing rooms because they'd be expected to change practically the whole of their life e.g. name, pronouns, dress, etc. and when that shit doesn't happen someones going to see that somethings up.

People using that as an excuse is bull to be honest.

Yes giving a trans person their own space if that's what they're comfortable with is a decent thing to do in the case of changing rooms and showers but people should be able to use the loos that they're comfortable. In womens toilets it's all stalls anyway so it doesn't make any difference, no one's going to see anything and no women are going to be harmed by a transwoman going there to pee, because in reality that's all she wants to do.

[SethfromMI]

Why would someone go through the whole social outcast and potential shunning by their peers by saying they're trans just to stare at the opposite sex a couple times a week? Are people that fucking desperate? If said guy then went around and bragged about it saying he's not actually trans I'm sure someone on staff would hear about it and he'd get in trouble. It's really bloody unlikely that someone is going to fake being trans just to get into the changing rooms because they'd be expected to change practically the whole of their life e.g. name, pronouns, dress, etc. and when that shit doesn't happen someones going to see that somethings up.

People using that as an excuse is bull to be honest.

Yes giving a trans person their own space if that's what they're comfortable with is a decent thing to do in the case of changing rooms and showers but people should be able to use the loos that they're comfortable. In womens toilets it's all stalls anyway so it doesn't make any difference, no one's going to see anything and no women are going to be harmed by a transwoman going there to pee, because in reality that's all she wants to do.

so if a gay man feels more comfortable in the woman's locker room, he should be allowed to use it? what if a straight guy who is bullied feels more comfortable in the woman's locker room? if we are going off feeling, they should be allowed to use the woman's locker room

[Desuetude]

so if a gay man feels more comfortable in the woman's locker room, he should be allowed to use it? what if a straight guy who is bullied feels more comfortable in the woman's locker room? if we are going off feeling, they should be allowed to use the woman's locker room
I'm not saying anything about sexuality, that doesn't play a part in deciding which bath/changing rooms you use. If you're female you use female spaces, if you're male you use male spaces, if you're between/none you make sure there's a space you feel comfortable with. You're not 'going off feeling' when it comes to trans people - they are that gender and belong in that changing room. If you're being bullied you tell someone who can help, if you're gay and feeling uncomfortable then just don't get full-frontal nude when changing, its difficult but hey what about body conscious people? If we're just talking about a solely comft thing now we should be inclusive of everyone having problems, no?

The dysphoria and stress felt when you're trans and made to use bathrooms that don't correlate with the gender you identity with can be incredibly harmful. In the UK there's actually been a law passed that you have the right to use whichever bathrooms you feel comfortable using. Like I said before though, no cis person in the right mind is going to pretend to be trans just to check out the opposite sex. I don't really see a major problem.

[DoodleSnap]

I'm not saying anything about sexuality, that doesn't play a part in deciding which bath/changing rooms you use. If you're female you use female spaces, if you're male you use male spaces, if you're between/none you make sure there's a space you feel comfortable with. You're not 'going off feeling' when it comes to trans people - they are that gender and belong in that changing room. If you're being bullied you tell someone who can help, if you're gay and feeling uncomfortable then just don't get full-frontal nude when changing, its difficult but hey what about body conscious people? If we're just talking about a solely comft thing now we should be inclusive of everyone having problems, no?

The dysphoria and stress felt when you're trans and made to use bathrooms that don't correlate with the gender you identity with can be incredibly harmful. In the UK there's actually been a law passed that you have the right to use whichever bathrooms you feel comfortable using. Like I said before though, no cis person in the right mind is going to pretend to be trans just to check out the opposite sex. I don't really see a major problem.
I agree. They should allow for trans people to use certain bathrooms, as their mental health as part of a medically recognised condition is much more important than the school coach's feelings.

[ethan-s]

i applaud those teachers. they are doing the right thing. my ??? to you is, do you have a problem with their policy?

[ethan-s]

Why do people use the argument that "Oh, a trans-guy could be in danger if they use the guys bathroom/locker room" and vice versa? You're basically just saying, "Yeah, our kids could totally rape/hurt someone else" instead of educating them on what it means to be trans. Also, you use those facilities to either take a dump or get out of your sweaty gym clothes, there's very little sexy time going on in those kinds of places.

so youre saying that we need to force the trans stuff down our kids throats? sorry, couldnt help it. if you want total tolerance, how about we start to tolerate
christian views?

[StoppingTom]

so youre saying that we need to force the trans stuff down our kids throats? sorry, couldnt help it. if you want total tolerance, how about we start to tolerate
christian views?

Ah yes I forgot all the Christian people being oppressed and forced to hide their Christianity/masquerade as other religions in order to avoid being harassed for said Christianity

[Sanchez16620]

I think no one should be made uncomfortable over their decisions everyone should be respected

[jockeyboy97]

I think no one should be made uncomfortable over their decisions everyone should be respected

Well said!!

[Uniquemind]

That's the rub.

Tolerance, is a double-edged sword, because it's forced inclusivity, and it therefore cannot exist with views that are intolerant or hateful.

It can quiet upsets, but the resentment builds and grows, and then you get social movements like Donald Trump.

Again I reiterate, make a 3rd bathroom.

During school events it can double as a "family bathroom", cuz schools have events like open house all the time.

The counter argument was that those who use the 3rd bathroom
Might feel alienated right and that they might be harmed mentally. Some of that is going to have to be their burden to bare.

The best society can do is to ensure safety and functionality first, THEN it can worry about the other things.

Individuals are responsible to a certain extent to be comfortable in their own skin, and realities and to show resilience in the face of adversity.

[Irishperson15]

That would be quite strange if a school done that
I've never heard a teacher mention that in my school at all. People should not be segregated because of their sexuality. You should protest if your school does this lol.

[Serra]

They shouldn't do that not because of gay or bi but for peoples gender id. gay people are still boys so, they should use the boys room. I think there should be just 1 bathroom for everyone and have single stalls instead of common changing room or shower.

[GothSwimmer]

It doesn't bother me if a guy uses a woman's bathroom, or vice versa, but I wouldn't want to shower with one.

[UNKNOWN8198]

That's the rub.

Tolerance, is a double-edged sword, because it's forced inclusivity, and it therefore cannot exist with views that are intolerant or hateful.

It can quiet upsets, but the resentment builds and grows, and then you get social movements like Donald Trump.

Again I reiterate, make a 3rd bathroom.

During school events it can double as a "family bathroom", cuz schools have events like open house all the time.

The counter argument was that those who use the 3rd bathroom
Might feel alienated right and that they might be harmed mentally. Some of that is going to have to be their burden to bare.

The best society can do is to ensure safety and functionality first, THEN it can worry about the other things.

Individuals are responsible to a certain extent to be comfortable in their own skin, and realities and to show resilience in the face of adversity.

However by not having tolerance, you are justifying those 'intolerant or hateful' views. Whatever you do, there are always going to be people it affects negatively and positively, that's just life. In this context, alienating trans people from bathrooms they should be using because 'it makes some people uncomfortable', can result in those trans people suffering mental health issues, like depression and self harm. I personally, though feel free to correct, have never heard of a person suffering from anything other than 'mild discomfort', from finding a trans person using the correct bathroom, so why should we subject a group of people to mental health issues, just because the opposing group doesn't like it. As for a 'burden they will have to bear', all I can say is, omfg, you really actually believe that.

As for why said people feel discomfort, I don't understand. Just because a trans woman is using the female bathroom, does not mean that she is in any way a danger to anyone in there. Sure, she could be a lesbian, however I haven't heard of many lesbian attacks in bathrooms, where cis-lesbians have attacked/raped other women. I mean, obviously it's a possibility, so why don't we also introduce bathrooms for lesbians as well, although it would have to be a separate one from the 'trans' bathroom because the lesbians could still be in danger. That was we can fully assure that the 'masses' can be comfortable peeing in a bathroom, because the health of those other people doesn't really matter, so long as the masses are happy. Then obviously, you'd need the same scenario for the male bathrooms as well, cause of all of the dangerous gay people using the mens bathrooms. So a total of 6 separate bathrooms would assure that most people are no longer mildly inconvenienced, while there's just that small group where the repercussions could result in lasting damaging issues.
As I said, I don't understand. Given people seem fine with homosexual people sharing a bathroom with them, I don't see where the problem could lie with a transsexual person.

'The best society can do is to ensure safety and functionality first, THEN it can worry about the other things.'
I'm intrigued as to why you included safety here, given the absence of anything unsafe in this topic.

'Individuals are responsible to a certain extent to be comfortable in their own skin, and realities and to show resilience in the face of adversity.'
Yes individuals are responsible for being comfortable in their own skin, but how can they do so when they are treated differently from other people because of something they cannot control. If it were really that simple, LGBT teens would not have the highest suicide rate, because they would be able to handle the adversity from the 'masses' telling them that what they are is wrong.

People seem to forget that although over the past few years we have made massive advances in LGBT equality, there is a T there for a reason, and they are still waiting for 'as equal' equality as the LGB have got.

*What would also be interesting is to see what proportion of the population actually has a problem with trans people using the bathrooms. I don't know, though there are probably be surveys, but for your first argument to be worth even a grain of salt, it would require the 'majority', or the highest percentage of people, actually caring, otherwise those 'intolerant' views, will on average, be intolerant towards the way that trans people are being treated.

[Uniquemind]

However by not having tolerance, you are justifying those 'intolerant or hateful' views. Whatever you do, there are always going to be people it affects negatively and positively, that's just life. In this context, alienating trans people from bathrooms they should be using because 'it makes some people uncomfortable', can result in those trans people suffering mental health issues, like depression and self harm. I personally, though feel free to correct, have never heard of a person suffering from anything other than 'mild discomfort', from finding a trans person using the correct bathroom, so why should we subject a group of people to mental health issues, just because the opposing group doesn't like it. As for a 'burden they will have to bear', all I can say is, omfg, you really actually believe that.

As for why said people feel discomfort, I don't understand. Just because a trans woman is using the female bathroom, does not mean that she is in any way a danger to anyone in there. Sure, she could be a lesbian, however I haven't heard of many lesbian attacks in bathrooms, where cis-lesbians have attacked/raped other women. I mean, obviously it's a possibility, so why don't we also introduce bathrooms for lesbians as well, although it would have to be a separate one from the 'trans' bathroom because the lesbians could still be in danger. That was we can fully assure that the 'masses' can be comfortable peeing in a bathroom, because the health of those other people doesn't really matter, so long as the masses are happy. Then obviously, you'd need the same scenario for the male bathrooms as well, cause of all of the dangerous gay people using the mens bathrooms. So a total of 6 separate bathrooms would assure that most people are no longer mildly inconvenienced, while there's just that small group where the repercussions could result in lasting damaging issues.
As I said, I don't understand. Given people seem fine with homosexual people sharing a bathroom with them, I don't see where the problem could lie with a transsexual person.

'The best society can do is to ensure safety and functionality first, THEN it can worry about the other things.'
I'm intrigued as to why you included safety here, given the absence of anything unsafe in this topic.

'Individuals are responsible to a certain extent to be comfortable in their own skin, and realities and to show resilience in the face of adversity.'
Yes individuals are responsible for being comfortable in their own skin, but how can they do so when they are treated differently from other people because of something they cannot control. If it were really that simple, LGBT teens would not have the highest suicide rate, because they would be able to handle the adversity from the 'masses' telling them that what they are is wrong.

People seem to forget that although over the past few years we have made massive advances in LGBT equality, there is a T there for a reason, and they are still waiting for 'as equal' equality as the LGB have got.

*What would also be interesting is to see what proportion of the population actually has a problem with trans people using the bathrooms. I don't know, though there are probably be surveys, but for your first argument to be worth even a grain of salt, it would require the 'majority', or the highest percentage of people, actually caring, otherwise those 'intolerant' views, will on average, be intolerant towards the way that trans people are being treated.


First off I'm kind of speaking in 3rd person here about the issue. Second I don't believe that by making a 3rd bathroom you are justifying hateful or intolerant views.

It's just acknowledging a fact that you can't force tolerance on others. If they want to live in the dark ages and be bigots, as long as they aren't hurting anybody fine.

Some geographical places are more or less bigoted than others and that's sometimes due to religious beliefs which are also protected by law.

Being bullied however is not justified and neither is hate speech.

Now personally do I feel it's a safety issue? Not really, on some days I even question why we separate bathrooms at all. But I made my comment in the context that we live in an unfair world, where that solution solves the issue or should and ends up benefiting everyone.

Safety was included in my post because if the environment is so bigoted, it's probably safer for all involved, because if you force the issue, the fact that they'll be able to use the bathroom with the gender they identify with, will most likely result in increased bullying and intolerance upon that person either way.

Either way, there's gonna be mental health suffering and issues there, because the problem extends beyond bathroom use or not, it's about being in a toxic environment as defined by the ratio of acceptance and rejection in an area. That's what the issue is about.

[UNKNOWN8198]

First off I'm kind of speaking in 3rd person here about the issue. Second I don't believe that by making a 3rd bathroom you are justifying hateful or intolerant views.

It's just acknowledging a fact that you can't force tolerance on others. If they want to live in the dark ages and be bigots, as long as they aren't hurting anybody fine.

Some geographical places are more or less bigoted than others and that's sometimes due to religious beliefs which are also protected by law.

Being bullied however is not justified and neither is hate speech.

Now personally do I feel it's a safety issue? Not really, on some days I even question why we separate bathrooms at all. But I made my comment in the context that we live in an unfair world, where that solution solves the issue or should and ends up benefiting everyone.

Safety was included in my post because if the environment is so bigoted, it's probably safer for all involved, because if you force the issue, the fact that they'll be able to use the bathroom with the gender they identify with, will most likely result in increased bullying and intolerance upon that person either way.

Either way, there's gonna be mental health suffering and issues there, because the problem extends beyond bathroom use or not, it's about being in a toxic environment as defined by the ratio of acceptance and rejection in an area. That's what the issue is about.

'Tolerance, is a double-edged sword, because it's forced inclusivity, and it therefore cannot exist with views that are intolerant or hateful.'
This was the comment I was saying justified the views. I agree, having the 3rd bathroom doesn't do that, but this as your introductory statement, with the bathrooms being brought in a couple of lines later, is standalone. You may not have meant it like that, but that's how it appeared.

As I said above, people are going to be negatively and positively affected by anything that happens. Currently, in this hypothetical situation, trans people would need to be tolerant of the fact that they are being treated differently for something they have no control over, however they don't have a choice to be tolerant here, it's being forced upon them.

Ignorance and tolerance are 2 separate things. In order to be tolerant of something, you need to have a reason as to why tolerance is needed; why there can be a view against it in the first place. In this case, there is no justifiable reason as to why they should not be allowed to use the bathrooms of the gender they are. The reason 'tolerance of others' isn't a reason for tolerance, because for there to be the reason for tolerance, there must be a need for tolerance, which there isn't. Bit loopy, but the point I'm making is that in this case, tolerance isn't a factor. Ignorance however, is. Bigotry is just a form of ignorance, and then what you've said I don't quite understand.

You've agreed that to be a bigot is to live in the dark ages, but you've then said that we should just accept that that view exists, and to treat others in such a way that the bigots will be okay with it. To do that would be to accept the ignorance, and that's stupid. If that was the case of life today, then being LGBT would still be illegal, and we would be living in the dark ages with the bigots. Given that they cannot give a justifiable reason as to why trans people shouldn't use the bathrooms they want to, why should their view be the one that we as a society follow?? We are not a bigoted society, so why do we condone their views and in part, accept them as okay??

Geographically speaking, yes, there are places more bigoted than others, so equality there will be harder. As for religion being in the law, if people were actually going to follow their religion 'to the book', then they shouldn't have a problem with it, given that it states in equivalent words that god is the only one who can pass judgement, everyone sins, all sin is equivalent, and to 'love thy neighbour'. Unfortunately, a lot of people use religion as an excuse for their own beliefs, that they then feel are justified by this righteous, infallible being who you can't question. Religion actually being in law, beyond 'being allowed to be religious', I completely disagree with, given the number of problems it's causing for people at the moment. I'll quote a line I read on tumblr before the equal marriage act:
"Funny we know gay people exist and don't know if god exists, but deny gay people their rights on the off chance it might piss god off.

Agree with bullying thing.

As for safety, I don't see how it can be an issue, and I also agree with just having unisex bathrooms, however different topic. As for living in an unfair world, I completely agree that we do, but why just sit back and accept that. If you accept that nothings going to change before you've started, then of course it isn't. Given that morally, they should be allowed to use whatever bathroom, that is what a moral person will stand for. An ignorant person will stand against it, because they feel that their feelings are more important, but that doesn't make it right, or mean that it should be accepted.

For this point, I'll bring up homophobia. Bit random, but a couple of years ago, it was a very common thing, similar to racism way back when, but that's because it's the way society in general was. Now, although it does still exist, we as a society are a lot better, and it is far less frequent in general, and that's because having those views are seen as a bad thing. If trans people can use the bathroom they wish, sure they may get bullied every so often for using the bathroom, equivalent to the odd bit of homophobia for being gay, however as it becomes accepted by general society, which it more or less is, having those views will be seen as bad, and the ignorant people will become the minority, view-wise. Same happened (/is happening) with racism and homophobia and many other discriminatory views.

In term of the mental suffering, just because it might happen elsewhere, does not justify the need to do nothing. Sure, having 'trans' toilets might sound like a good idea, however it still segregates them, and separates them from everyone else. Given this is at school, where petty bullying is abundant, giving people an excuse to do it is not good. It would be the equivalent of making them sit at the front of the class in a row on their own for every lesson; the thought may be to separate them from any problems they have in class, and it would help them to learn more, however it would just create a divide between them and the 'average' pupil, and make them a metaphorical outcast.
Basically, it becomes a case of 'bullying because your treated differently'. The bully probably couldn't care less that they're trans, but because of difference in treatment, the bully is just targeting 'the odd one out', or the different one. Even if the bully did care, that's now transphobia, something which in most places you can be suspended for, and would've happened regardless of what toilets they used, so may as well make the trans person feel more comfortable, and reduce the effect they may receive from other pupils.

[Uniquemind]

'Tolerance, is a double-edged sword, because it's forced inclusivity, and it therefore cannot exist with views that are intolerant or hateful.'
This was the comment I was saying justified the views. I agree, having the 3rd bathroom doesn't do that, but this as your introductory statement, with the bathrooms being brought in a couple of lines later, is standalone. You may not have meant it like that, but that's how it appeared.

As I said above, people are going to be negatively and positively affected by anything that happens. Currently, in this hypothetical situation, trans people would need to be tolerant of the fact that they are being treated differently for something they have no control over, however they don't have a choice to be tolerant here, it's being forced upon them.

Ignorance and tolerance are 2 separate things. In order to be tolerant of something, you need to have a reason as to why tolerance is needed; why there can be a view against it in the first place. In this case, there is no justifiable reason as to why they should not be allowed to use the bathrooms of the gender they are. The reason 'tolerance of others' isn't a reason for tolerance, because for there to be the reason for tolerance, there must be a need for tolerance, which there isn't. Bit loopy, but the point I'm making is that in this case, tolerance isn't a factor. Ignorance however, is. Bigotry is just a form of ignorance, and then what you've said I don't quite understand.

You've agreed that to be a bigot is to live in the dark ages, but you've then said that we should just accept that that view exists, and to treat others in such a way that the bigots will be okay with it. To do that would be to accept the ignorance, and that's stupid. If that was the case of life today, then being LGBT would still be illegal, and we would be living in the dark ages with the bigots. Given that they cannot give a justifiable reason as to why trans people shouldn't use the bathrooms they want to, why should their view be the one that we as a society follow?? We are not a bigoted society, so why do we condone their views and in part, accept them as okay??

Geographically speaking, yes, there are places more bigoted than others, so equality there will be harder. As for religion being in the law, if people were actually going to follow their religion 'to the book', then they shouldn't have a problem with it, given that it states in equivalent words that god is the only one who can pass judgement, everyone sins, all sin is equivalent, and to 'love thy neighbour'. Unfortunately, a lot of people use religion as an excuse for their own beliefs, that they then feel are justified by this righteous, infallible being who you can't question. Religion actually being in law, beyond 'being allowed to be religious', I completely disagree with, given the number of problems it's causing for people at the moment. I'll quote a line I read on tumblr before the equal marriage act:
"Funny we know gay people exist and don't know if god exists, but deny gay people their rights on the off chance it might piss god off.

Agree with bullying thing.

As for safety, I don't see how it can be an issue, and I also agree with just having unisex bathrooms, however different topic. As for living in an unfair world, I completely agree that we do, but why just sit back and accept that. If you accept that nothings going to change before you've started, then of course it isn't. Given that morally, they should be allowed to use whatever bathroom, that is what a moral person will stand for. An ignorant person will stand against it, because they feel that their feelings are more important, but that doesn't make it right, or mean that it should be accepted.

For this point, I'll bring up homophobia. Bit random, but a couple of years ago, it was a very common thing, similar to racism way back when, but that's because it's the way society in general was. Now, although it does still exist, we as a society are a lot better, and it is far less frequent in general, and that's because having those views are seen as a bad thing. If trans people can use the bathroom they wish, sure they may get bullied every so often for using the bathroom, equivalent to the odd bit of homophobia for being gay, however as it becomes accepted by general society, which it more or less is, having those views will be seen as bad, and the ignorant people will become the minority, view-wise. Same happened (/is happening) with racism and homophobia and many other discriminatory views.

In term of the mental suffering, just because it might happen elsewhere, does not justify the need to do nothing. Sure, having 'trans' toilets might sound like a good idea, however it still segregates them, and separates them from everyone else. Given this is at school, where petty bullying is abundant, giving people an excuse to do it is not good. It would be the equivalent of making them sit at the front of the class in a row on their own for every lesson; the thought may be to separate them from any problems they have in class, and it would help them to learn more, however it would just create a divide between them and the 'average' pupil, and make them a metaphorical outcast.
Basically, it becomes a case of 'bullying because your treated differently'. The bully probably couldn't care less that they're trans, but because of difference in treatment, the bully is just targeting 'the odd one out', or the different one. Even if the bully did care, that's now transphobia, something which in most places you can be suspended for, and would've happened regardless of what toilets they used, so may as well make the trans person feel more comfortable, and reduce the effect they may receive from other pupils.


A deeper question to ask is why, if you're broad view stance is anti-segregation, why separate the males from the women's bathroom at all?

I believe the reason for it partly stems from society that was shaped around a puritanical influences and manners that stem from gender roles. Those roles had a mix of functional purpose, and ideological entrenchment.

In race's case, there was an outward physical indicator that made it easier to classify and unjustly rank and judge groups. Furthermore science has isolated genes that basically explain what race is and why it's a smokescreen for what's underneath.

In this particular case, regarding sexual orientation and identity, the difference resides in the purely mental-state of mind, and society and science hasn't really isolated a cause or explanation for either phenomena.

To opponents, they don't understand and they argue that a biological boy or girl, is not the same as someone who is trans. (They aren't going to be able to empathize with periods, or giving birth for example, a lot of girls or guys won't consider them as a romantic interest).

It's also a weird issue because from the beginning the premise of separating the genders was in a way segregationist from the start, and the existence of trans throws off the attempted simple view of how to classify things.

And classification is important for legal reasons as well, rather than just for social customs.

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Now that being said, I think people need to have thicker skin, and as long as they aren't being hurt and assaulted or insulted.

Just like how I have to accept that if someone meets me in public and wants to fantasize about me, I HAVE to tolerate that, and in most cases I'd be ignorant of it.

The main answer to the beginning question that I came up with, is that we separate bathrooms under the reason we wanted privacy or a messy unclear to the physical world legal mess.



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UPDATE: So I took this issue with me to school today, and brought this topic up with my friends (both boys and girls) at lunch. Just like we have mixed opinions here, so to was there a mixed response from my circle of friends.


Some of it is just bigoted, but fine, they have their right to their opinion.

Others are more pragmatic, and here are some of the answers:

1. The bathrooms gender separation is partly a security thing for safety and to establish a comfort zone, where very private business is conducted.

2. It's tradition (or the religious argument, it's not an issue of enough consequence to warrant a change)

3. Some of my girlfriends (and I agree with this) is that making unisex bathrooms (so one of the solutions I offered in here) would mean certain discussions among girls can no longer be discussed in discretion from male ears. Given how immature some guys can be with gossip and bullying, it might be a problem in that arena.

4. That (unlike race differences [racism] ) there are physical differences with each genders bodies that justify the separation. On gender identity, the difference is one of opinion of being born wrong at birth, but on the equality side of things, they aren't being denied tangible material access to something by society. People are born a certain gender, and most people play the roll with what they get, now the roll of what one can't or can't do is where the divergence of racism and sexism starts, and that's why the two debate topics here, do not equate to this issue.

5. It's not a big deal, as long as the shower part of the bathroom isn't shared.

6. Some of the guys didn't want to have urinals in a bathroom they'd share with the opposite gender.



So those were some of the various responses I got, so make of them what you will.

[Harrier]

This whole Trans-gender issue controversy has blown up since this post started in February thanks to the law in North Carolina that has people now boycotting the state of North Carolina because LBGT groups say the state is acting hateful to trans people by not allowing trans people to pick the bathroom they want. Actually this became an issue in Washington State before North Carolina. Washington legislature passed a law that allows a person to use any public bathroom they choose. This allows trans women who were born a man (Like Cait Jenner aka Bruce Jenner) to use the women's room. However there are unforeseen problems. For instance a man went into a community pool and started getting naked with a girls swim team. The mom of the girl swimmer went to the desk and the desk person threw the guy out. But actually this man isn't allowed to be thrown out. The new law states that throwing the man out is against the new law. The people that are offended have to leave, not the man getting naked in the locker room. Every state and every country will have to decide in the coming months and years what they see correct and lawful. Personally I am for protecting a trans gendered person from geeting beaten up phycically or verbally in a bathroom or lockeroom or shower but there are many more issues than meet the eye. People can and will and are abusing the law. There was nothing stopping me and my teammates from showering in the girls showers in front of girls after a track meet I had last weekend in Washington State. That's sort of weird if you asked me.

[NeuroTiger]

I can't see it as a problem for gay guys to change in the same place as straight guys as long as they all respect one another.

[Harrier]

It doesn't bother me if a guy uses a woman's bathroom, or vice versa, but I wouldn't want to shower with one.

That's the new law in Washington State in the US, you can now use any public bathroom or shower you want. Already one man abused it by getting naked in front of a girls swim team at a community pool. It's supposed to be a new law for trans gendered, but there are so many loopholes, you can basically do whatever you want now. smh

[Harrier]

I can't see it as a problem for gay guys to change in the same place as straight guys as long as they all respect one another.

That's the key, repsect. But if there is no respect, then what? And what about transgendered? What about a boy/man who looks like a boy/man but wears make up and girls clothes???

[NeuroTiger]

That's the key, repsect. But if there is no respect, then what? And what about transgendered? What about a boy/man who looks like a boy/man but wears make up and girls clothes???

Simple. Just as most public places have a special restroom for disabled, make one for these person too.

[Harrier]

Simple. Just as most public places have a special restroom for disabled, make one for these person too.

Ya I think you're right, most new buildings in the future will be built with a 3rd bathroom, like many are today and be called family rest rooms that you can lock. But for a lot of places like my high school and many other places, it's not cost efficient or even possible to build a new bathroom and lockerroom and showers for a 3rd group or whatever. My high school is so overcrowded we have like 12 portables as is. For a large high school or mall you need many 3rd bathrooms, and for the schools, ymcas, gyms, pools, you need at least one extra locker room/shower.

[Microcosm]

Simple. Just as most public places have a special restroom for disabled, make one for these person too.

This seems kind of difficult to actually implement. Transgendered people are a very small minority. Most places that would have to make these bathrooms available would have no one that goes there to use them. For instance, if a law were passed that made something like this, military bases and such government buildings would probably be mandated to make a third bathroom, but it often wouldn't get used. It would mostly just be a waste of money. I do see your logic, but it just seems kind of useless for most places.

Here's my stance: Trans people can use whichever bathroom they'd like, but they can't make a public spectacle out of it. I think it's best that they just use stalls at all times. That would solve the problem, I think. I don't intend to say that there should be a law that says that they should use stalls, but maybe just a sort of social expectation for them to do so so as to not disturb people in the restrooms.

[Uniquemind]

Law is very black and white.

It doesn't do well when attempting to control or regulate an intangible thing, like abstract ideas like gender identity and even the concept of "intentions and consent" are a grey area that needs really good lawyers and physical evidence to win a case.

[NeuroTiger]

This seems kind of difficult to actually implement. Transgendered people are a very small minority. Most places that would have to make these bathrooms available would have no one that goes there to use them. For instance, if a law were passed that made something like this, military bases and such government buildings would probably be mandated to make a third bathroom, but it often wouldn't get used. It would mostly just be a waste of money. I do see your logic, but it just seems kind of useless for most places.

Here's my stance: Trans people can use whichever bathroom they'd like, but they can't make a public spectacle out of it. I think it's best that they just use stalls at all times. That would solve the problem, I think. I don't intend to say that there should be a law that says that they should use stalls, but maybe just a sort of social expectation for them to do so so as to not disturb people in the restrooms.

I'm not saying we should change all public restrooms and stuffs at one go. It will certainly take some time.
But we don't need to get the laws amended to get things going.
Certainly it will depend on the funds a particular organization/school have and their opinion on the issue.
Some posters above mentioned about incidents happening about trans may use stalls of their choice...but, there'll be some perverts who will use this precious opportunity to sneak into girls' bathrooms and stuffs like being naked, idk.
Either you make a restroom special for them or we keep it the way things are going atm (you use the restroom depending of what you have in between your legs).

[Cadanance00]

Does anybody realize how ridiculous this whole issue is. I've been to a couple of concerts where the line for the women's bathroom was around the block so girls used the men's room and there wasn't any problem whatsoever. If anything the guys were probably better behaved. So what the hell is the big problem?

[Kevgpdx]

I think we should just let people be who they are. It doesn't matter what parts they have. Nobody harasses me when I go into the bathroom to pee and I'm not going to harass anyone else.

[RichD]

I think it doesn't matter whether you're homo/heterosexual, just use the bathroom that matches your physical gender. I mean, in the boys' bathroom/locker room, nobody's really going to be able to tell the difference between a straight, gay, or transgender guy, right? If they can, they probably shouldn't be staring. (I could be wrong.) Same for girls. The only possible difficulty I see would be someone who physically possesses both male and female parts, which doesn't happen often.

A brief note about unisex bathrooms. They're pretty much exactly the same as a single-person women's bathroom. I mean, I wish they'd put urinals in them, for the guys. Then we wouldn't have to wipe the toilet seats for the girls when we splash.

[LiamC]

It shouldn't be up to anybody but the transgender individual to say which bathroom they should use, and that bathroom should match their gender. As has been said, you probably wouldn't even know if a transgender person used the bathroom with you, you probably have before. You wouldn't not a gay man or a lesbian not use the bathroom for their gender, so why should the law state that a transgender person can't?