Euro-Jews in Trouble?

[Porpoise101]

More and more Jews are leaving from Europe to the US and Israel. This is because of an increase in anti-semitic behavior and hate crimes. This also coincides with an increase in Middle Eastern refugees, many of which come from places that are staunchly against minorities of cultural and religious kinds. What do you guys think of the future if the Jews in Europe?
Story here:http://m.voanews.com/a/fears-mount-resurgent-anti-semitism-europe/3166103.html

[phuckphace]

saw this coming a mile away, yo. letting a pack of dogs into a cat shelter, like what did they expect would happen? peace love and harmony duuuuuuuude

Sweden's SD party already predicted that an increase of Muslims would lead to so called anti-gay "hate crimes", for the same reason. makes sense - they're not refined, erudite bigots like yours truly.

[Jinglebottom]

I wouldn't be surprised if these people started organizing "Death to [-]Juice[/-] Jews" protests in the streets. Anti-semitism is deeply rooted in their brains.

[Judean Zealot]

There is no future for European Jewry. They should get out and come here, but they seem prone to making that mistake- not getting out on time. The issues come from almost all of European society: it's obvious where the Muslims are coming from, the right wing reaction lumps Jews with Muslims (see bans on circumcision and kosher slaughtering), and the left cozies up to the Muslims. This has been going on for years now.

[Exocet]

LOL,many Jews are pushing for more immigration and multiculturalism in Europe,and then cry because they're attacked ? Can't understand this world. Really.
-
Just an exemple. Look at her,she doesn't even hide her agenda.

5jl-OJJVAEg

[Judean Zealot]

LOL,many Jews are pushing for more immigration and multiculturalism in Europe,and then cry because they're attacked ? Can't understand this world. Really.
-
Just an exemple. Look at her,she doesn't even hide her agenda.

5jl-OJJVAEg

Can you understand when they cry about far-right attacks on Jews?

[Harrier]

Jews today, all whites tomorrow. Hope that doesn't sound racist but I don't know how else to say it. It's a fact. Whites (Europeans and US) aren't having children. Slowly but surely Muslims will become the majority in Europe and Hispanics will do the same in US.

[Exocet]

Can you understand when they cry about far-right attacks on Jews?

C'mon,the real threats jews are facing are from moslems and immigrants,surely not from 'far right'. Who's killing jews with assault rifles...... so called 'far rights' or moslems ?

[Judean Zealot]

C'mon,the real threats jews are facing are from moslems and immigrants,surely not from 'far right'. Who's killing jews with assault rifles...... so called 'far rights' or moslems ?

Oh, I agree with you, but Jews have been the collateral damage in the far right's fight against Islam. Circumcision and kosher meat are huge issues facing religious Jews in Europe. Whichever side wins, the Jews will be hurt. Also, the religious French Jews who are running here are the most right wing Zionists in the country, so I highly doubt they were pushing multiculturalism back in France.

[phuckphace]

Oh, I agree with you, but Jews have been the collateral damage in the far right's fight against Islam. Circumcision and kosher meat are huge issues facing religious Jews in Europe. Whichever side wins, the Jews will be hurt.

the European far-right is a better enemy to have by a mile, even if they do "win". most of them would be cool with it if all Jews just moved to/got deported to Israel and stayed there, but Islamists as you well know actually do want another Holocaust 100% to completion.

the main moral we should take away from this refugee story and Exocet's video is that multiculturalism is a failure (and it also helps to never let American intellectuals into your country ever). it could end one of several ways but hopefully with everyone reverting back to their own ethno-states.

[tovaris]

You knowwww arabs are also semits.

A jew free Europe, after all this years, maybe the hitler History Chanel is tracking down in Argentina will come back.

[Jinglebottom]

You knowwww arabs are also semits.
But the word "antisemitism" is mostly used to refer to discrimination against Jews in particular. I'm not sure what the word for discrimination against Arabs is (Arabophobia? Anti-Arabism?), but I'm almost positive I have an internalized version of that (wait - are the Druze even considered Arabs? Wikipedia says we're an ethno-religious group).

[tovaris]

But the word "antisemitism" is mostly used to refer to discrimination against Jews in particular.
/.../.

Thats discrimination against arabs!

[Judean Zealot]

Thats discrimination against arabs!

Do us a favour and take a long walk on a short pier. It's kind of disturbing how much faith you place in semantics, in case you aren't aware, words have meaning only insofar as we attach meaning to them. They do not intrinsically mean anything.

In addition, the term 'anti-semitism' was coined by a German intellectual in 1879 to describe his hatred of Jews.

[Jinglebottom]

Thats discrimination against arabs!
No, this is. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism) Plus, "anti-judaism" and "anti-jewishness" don't sound very... nice to the ear.

[tovaris]

Do us a favour and take a long walk on a short pier. It's kind of disturbing how much faith you place in semantics, in case you aren't aware, words have meaning only insofar as we attach meaning to them. They do not intrinsically mean anything.

In addition, the term 'anti-semitism' was coined by a German intellectual in 1879 to describe his hatred of Jews.


Pending full response, hang on and watch this

https://youtu.be/vYK9iCRb7S4

[Porpoise101]

Yeah historically Jews have been a good asset for Europe in many respects. In the middle ages, they made up a crucial middle class, and usually were law abiding folk. But now I feel that the Jews don't feel welcome as much anymore because of anti semitic far rightists and now Islamists. It is pretty sad to lose a culture I have to say. Now they will just go to Israel and meld together into some artificial form of 'Jewishness' and lose their former identity. In conflicts between two bad sides, it's usually the minorities who get hurt either way.

[Judean Zealot]

Yeah historically Jews have been a good asset for Europe in many respects. In the middle ages, they made up a crucial middle class, and usually were law abiding folk. But now I feel that the Jews don't feel welcome as much anymore because of anti semitic far rightists and now Islamists. It is pretty sad to lose a culture I have to say. Now they will just go to Israel and meld together into some artificial form of 'Jewishness' and lose their former identity. In conflicts between two bad sides, it's usually the minorities who get hurt either way.

Jews were pretty much never welcome in Europe. Aside from brief periods of tolerance they were almost always dreadfully persecuted in all of Christian Europe. The sooner they leave that damned bloody continent the better.

[Porpoise101]

Jews were pretty much never welcome in Europe. Aside from brief periods of tolerance they were almost always dreadfully persecuted in all of Christian Europe. The sooner they leave that damned bloody continent the better.
They were encouraged in some places. If I remember correctly, the various German countries and Austria were tolerant for a long while until recent unfortunate events. I think as a general guide though, Western Europe and Russia weren't very nice.

[Judean Zealot]

They were encouraged in some places. If I remember correctly, the various German countries and Austria were tolerant for a long while until recent unfortunate events. I think as a general guide though, Western Europe and Russia weren't very nice.

Emancipation for Jews in Germany was I believe in the early 19th century, which means that less than a century and a half passed from then until the Holocaust. Prior to the enlightenment Germany and Austria were probably the worst areas in Europe with regards to blood libels and expulsions.

The only decent places were some of the Italian States and the United Provinces.

[Porpoise101]

Emancipation for Jews in Germany was I believe in the early 19th century, which means that less than a century and a half passed from then until the Holocaust. Prior to the enlightenment Germany and Austria were probably the worst areas in Europe with regards to blood libels and expulsions.

The only decent places were some of the Italian States and the United Provinces.

Oh that is interesting to hear. I learned that in particular Austria-Hungary was widely liked by American Jews and that was because they were tolerant of minorities in general. Yeah I forgot to mention the Dutch. They were pretty cool until WW2 in their ways. On an unrelated note, are there still Italian Jews? They had a pretty cool community.

[Judean Zealot]

Oh that is interesting to hear. I learned that in particular Austria-Hungary was widely liked by American Jews and that was because they were tolerant of minorities in general. Yeah I forgot to mention the Dutch. They were pretty cool until WW2 in their ways. On an unrelated note, are there still Italian Jews? They had a pretty cool community.

My cousin went there for university, from what he's told me there's a miniscule Jewish community left. Really France and UK are the only really significant Jewish communities in Europe (maybe Belgium too). Sadly the Italian Jews have for the most part lost there unique customs upon arrival in Israel or America and were subsumed into the larger demographics. And I agree, the Italian communities were among the most fascinating in all of Jewish history.

[lliam]

Actually, you sound just like my dad. lol.:D

And, wow! i just noticed this huge section on vt that no girls visit.:cool:

this section isn't about shoes but Yentl Shoemakers and such.
and hopefully that doesn't sound like your Dad.




tt: I wonder: Jews flee to the US? Why haven't I get this yet? After all, I've Jew relatives living in Germany. And they've not been bothered, attacked or else.

[Porpoise101]

ttt: I wonder: Jews flee to the US? Why haven't I get this yet? After all, I've Jew relatives living in Germany. And they've not been bothered, attacked or else.
Well there is an established community here and the US has a decent standard of living. Also Jews aren't treated so badly. In fact, it's looked down upon to be anti semitic in politics (as it should be) and it's not considered a "macho move" in the way insulting immigrants is on the right.

[Judean Zealot]

Well there is an established community here and the US has a decent standard of living. Also Jews aren't treated so badly. In fact, it's looked down upon to be anti semitic in politics (as it should be) and it's not considered a "macho move" in the way insulting immigrants is on the right.

In France and Sweden even many religious Jews don't wear skullcaps in public because if they do they will inevitably be spit at, heckled, and sometimes beat up because they're Jewish. Multiple family members and friends of mine were refused services in stores and restaurants because they were Jewish.

And ironically, Germany is currently the safest country in Europe for Jews.

[Porpoise101]

But seriously, it's not my opinion (and your dad's) it's just facts. White races have negative population growth.
Are hiSPANICs not white? They are from Spain no? At most they are mixed with Amerindian, but there are some pure Spaniards, especially from the upper classes. I'm mentioning this because you said that a while back. (Not like this entire thing is on topic anyways)

[Plane And Simple]

Posts have been deleted. This section of the forum is to be taken seriously and respectfully. This isn't a place for off-topic either. If this happens again action will be taken

Also, VTDC :arrow2: ROTW.

[tovaris]

Do us a favour and take a long walk on a short pier. /.../


Its January, its 15°C outside, not really bathing weather.


/.../ It's kind of disturbing how much faith you place in semantics, in case you aren't aware, words have meaning only insofar as we attach meaning to them. They do not intrinsically mean anything.
/.../

So are Arabs Semits or not?

Yes Semites are a people group, and just because you don't like people from it you cannot exclude them from it, or exclude yourself (Poland, Slavs). Arabs and jews are cousins, you share the same god and you are all "dissented" from Abram. Fact of life man.


/.../
In addition, the term 'anti-semitism' was coined by a German intellectual in 1879 to describe his hatred of Jews.

As far as nations go jews and Germans are both pretty low in my book.


No, this is. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism) Plus, "anti-judaism" and "anti-jewishness" don't sound very... nice to the ear.

That might be right. But I still like reminding jews that when they hate arabs they are hating Semits

[Jinglebottom]

That might be right. But I still like reminding jews that when they hate arabs they are hating Semits
No one is hating on anyone here so I don't see what you're trying to prove.

[Porpoise101]

Its January, its 15°C outside, not really bathing weather.



So are Arabs Semits or not?

Yes Semites are a people group, and just because you don't like people from it you cannot exclude them from it, or exclude yourself (Poland, Slavs). Arabs and jews are cousins, you share the same god and you are all "dissented" from Abram. Fact of life man.



As far as nations go jews and Germans are both pretty low in my book.




That might be right. But I still like reminding jews that when they hate arabs they are hating Semits
Related cultures often have rivalries. Look at how many Slavs here hate Croatians, or how the English hated the French for a long time.

[Falcons_11]

If all this were to come to pass again in Europe after 70+ years, would this be a return to the "Hitlerzeit" (1933-1945) that happened in Germany and Europe? One would think that civilization would have learned its lesson from the horrors of that time. What is wrong with human beings that they haven't learned the lessons of history? I guess I am being too naive to think otherwise.

[Kahn]

I think a lot of Europeans are in trouble, regardless of religious affiliation.

[Stronk Serb]

Oh that is interesting to hear. I learned that in particular Austria-Hungary was widely liked by American Jews and that was because they were tolerant of minorities in general. Yeah I forgot to mention the Dutch. They were pretty cool until WW2 in their ways. On an unrelated note, are there still Italian Jews? They had a pretty cool community.

Austria-Hungary and Austria in general tolerant of minorities? During censuses Serbs had to change their last names to something vulgar like Pisser or Shitter so you cannot translate it into German. Orthodox Serbs were in worse condition when compared to Catholics who recieved many benefits for converting. Also Serbs living in Vojvodina faced heavy discrimination by the Hungarian rule there, they officially couldn't use their language, in schools they could only learn Hungarian etc. That's how they treated the people who watched over Sava and the Danube for Ottoman incursions. The worst thing is, Hungarians and Croats were jealous how we got land after the migration from the Ottomans, never realizing we had to protect the whole empire for it.

Now on-topic:

Jews: literally culturally enriched us (Heine), were intellectuals, were patriotic (Djordje Weifert), they integrate in every society, accepting what you give them and not asking for more, essentially they were good.
Migrants: cultural enrichment through rape and murder, refuse to integrate, constantly want without giving in return, being a drain on the budget and the people in general.

The far-right needs the Jew-hate for votes, but I doubt they would go full Holocaust 2.0. They would leave the status quo hence they risk international disgust and internal protests.

[phuckphace]

Hitlerzeit would turn into Freiheitzeit fairly quickly (the eternal Anglo, etc.)

[Harrier]

Are hiSPANICs not white? They are from Spain no? At most they are mixed with Amerindian, but there are some pure Spaniards, especially from the upper classes. I'm mentioning this because you said that a while back. (Not like this entire thing is on topic anyways)

When questionaires/surveys/applications ask you to choose a race they always have Hispanic and Caucasian as 2 separate races.

[Porpoise101]

When questionaires/surveys/applications ask you to choose a race they always have Hispanic and Caucasian as 2 separate races.
That's because the census is antiquated. Honestly, race is kind of a dumb metric. I'd rather ethnicity/culture.

[DoodleSnap]

Well, it is true that a lot of Muslims don't like Jews, so, it's up to whoever is interested to decide whether the influx of Islamic migration is going to present issue to the Jewish community.

[tovaris]

I think a lot of Europeans are in trouble, regardless of religious affiliation.

Izrealites are not europeans.

[Judean Zealot]

Izrealites are not europeans.

Well, at least this is an improvement from the 'Jews are all Khazars' nonsense.

[Porpoise101]

Izrealites are not europeans.
If you have lived and adopted European culture, then you are European enough for me.

[tovaris]

If you have lived and adopted European culture, then you are European enough for me.
There is no such thing as "european enouth" you either are or are not. besides Izrealites in European diasporas newer did adopt european colture.

[Judean Zealot]

There is no such thing as "european enouth" you either are or are not. besides Izrealites in European diasporas newer did adopt european colture.

You mean like Heinrich Heine, Franz Kafka, Leon Trotsky, Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Benjamin Disraeli, and the rest of that bunch?

[tovaris]

You mean like Heinrich Heine, Franz Kafka, Leon Trotsky, Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Benjamin Disraeli, and the rest of that bunch?

Kafka was an idiot bug. Just needed to say that.
Who made the warsaw gheto? Were they forced there? No noone forced them to live in ghetos, but germans knew how to use that fact

[Judean Zealot]

Who made the warsaw gheto?
Uhh, Hans Frank?

Were they forced there? No noone forced them to live in ghetos, but germans knew how to use that fact

Where do you get this crap from? Either way, how is this in any way relevant to this discussion?

[Kahn]

Izrealites are not europeans.

Lol. The thread specifically calls for discussion concerning the fate of European Jews in the wake of the migration crisis. We're not talking about Israel. Although I understand what you mean, I don't care for how you define Israelite. My point still stands.

[tovaris]

Lol. The thread specifically calls for discussion concerning the fate of European Jews in the wake of the migration crisis. We're not talking about Israel. Although I understand what you mean, I don't care for how you define Israelite. My point still stands.
I do believe the "Jew" referes to the nation from Kanaan. Also known as the Izrealites, russians call them жиди. euro-jews are also Izrealites who are in europe. Noone is talking about Izrael the country, tho the country does get its name "from a man" Izrael.

Uhh, Hans Frank?



Where do you get this crap from? Either way, how is this in any way relevant to this discussion?
What crap? Jews of europe have histiricly kept to themselves, even in Ljubljana we used to have a gheto untill about 200 years ago when they mowed as a result of the pogroms.

Because im answering you. You ask me something and i respond thats a discusion, all be it off topic slightly (thx to you) but nothing major

[Kahn]

I do believe the "Jew" referes to the nation from Kanaan. Also known as the Izrealites, russians call them жиди. euro-jews are also Izrealites who are in europe. Noone is talking about Izrael the country, tho the country does get its name "from a man" Izrael.

Then take up your issue with the OP, because it makes no difference to me, as I've stated. You're telling me something I already know and this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. All you're doing is projecting and quite frankly, I don't think anyone cares.

[tovaris]

Then take up your issue with the OP, because it makes no difference to me, as I've stated. You're telling me something I already know and this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. All you're doing is projecting and quite frankly, I don't think anyone cares.
Well what you quoted was a response to something alredy posted, not the OP. But you wered us of course now haven't you. With your Izrealites thing.
Izrealites have been living in diasporas across europe eve since the romans took the out of Judea for being too anoying. Now what is happening is we are getting their former neighbors up here but they are comining volentalery, naturaly there is bound to be anymosety between two groups espacely due to the plagiary thing with the holy book and stuf. But sine both Jews and Arabs and Turcs are all in germany, this hardly concerns the rest of us.

[Kahn]

Well what you quoted was a response to something alredy posted, not the OP. But you wered us of course now haven't you. With your Izrealites thing.

Your English is terrible and I'm not sure what you're trying to say. My original post didn't have a quote. You went out of your way to quote me, to criticize my use of the term European Jew, despite the OP containing the phrase "Euro-Jew" and the entire thread being designed around discussion about what will happen to European Jews living in the areas hardest hit by migration.

If that was too much for you to comprehend, here is a simpler way of saying it: nobody gives a fuck.

Izraelites have been living in diasporas across europe eve since the romans took the out of Judea for being too anoying. Now what is happening is we are getting their former neighbors up here but they are comining volentalery, naturaly there is bound to be anymosety between two groups espacely due to the plagiary thing with the holy book and stuf. But sine both Jews and Arabs and Turcs are all in germany, this hardly concerns the rest of us.

Okay. Ignore what I said and keep on projecting, Ivan.

[tovaris]

Your English is terrible and I'm not sure what you're trying to say. My original post didn't have a quote. You went out of your way to quote me, to criticize my use of the term European Jew, despite the OP containing the phrase "Euro-Jew" and the entire thread being designed around discussion about what will happen to European Jews living in the areas hardest hit by migration.

If that was too much for you to comprehend, here is a simpler way of saying it: nobody gives a fuck.



Okay. Ignore what I said and keep on projecting, Ivan.

Whats your problem?
http://i.imgur.com/E56go4b.png

How did you get from that to your curent state?

Anywhoo I'll let you and your kind be.

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9adLJnXu0iaMTMkY3Vm8QTWTk43wDjO5A+0riijixpFltPsyt8Zuri6uWPPVO6L/AMKRlQo9N63Y/s44WBj4NG/vLuf1ZiTSlSJUjL/2f8M/8FDjy07fpnBqwWlqkSLHEixoowqooVVHkANhX2lDplpSlAKUpQClKUApSlAKUpQClKUApSlAKUpQH//Z (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B)

[Porpoise101]

What crap? Jews of europe have histiricly kept to themselves, even in Ljubljana we used to have a gheto untill about 200 years ago when they mowed as a result of the pogroms.
You literally just said that the only reason they were different from normal Slovenians was the fact they were forcibly excluded.

[Kahn]

Delete

[tovaris]

You literally just said that the only reason they were different from normal Slovenians was the fact they were forcibly excluded.
1. 200 years ago there was no such thing as a Slovenian.
2. they chose to live seperate from the rest of the population in the cities

[Kahn]

Whats your problem?
image (http://i.imgur.com/E56go4b.png)

My problem is you trying to shove your shitty opinions down my throat by claiming them as indisputable fact, and backing them up with rambling rationalizations.

I am of the opinion that it is appropriate to consider a jew born and raised in Europe, cultured in European ways- a European.

How did you get from that to your curent state?

Uh, that's still my stance on the migration crisis. I'm just tired of dealing with your half baked rhetoric aimed solely at me, in this thread and others.

(My stance being that religious affiliation doesn't matter, if you're European, the migration crisis is not good for you)

Anywhoo I'll let you and your kind be.

Don't let your ignorance hit you on the way out, Ivan!

[Porpoise101]

1. 200 years ago there was no such thing as a Slovenian.
2. they chose to live seperate from the rest of the population in the cities
Is this wrong (referring to the history portion).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_language

That may be true I suppose because you guys were ruled over most of the time. I suppose Slovenian history was mostly in the hands of Romans, Germans, Austrians, and Serbs.

[tovaris]

Is this wrong (referring to the history portion).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_language

That may be true I suppose because you guys were ruled over most of the time. I suppose Slovenian history was mostly in the hands of Romans, Germans, Austrians, and Serbs.
200 yers ago is what is called the time of provincial concenes, people didn't identify as a nation but acording to the habsbur mandated province

[phuckphace]

Exodus II begins in earnest

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11393427/Were-leaving-Britain-Jews-arent-safe-here-any-more.html

Eurabia confirmed? I always thought that was just a conspiracy theory (heh)

[Arkansasguy]

More and more Jews are leaving from Europe to the US and Israel. This is because of an increase in anti-semitic behavior and hate crimes. This also coincides with an increase in Middle Eastern refugees, many of which come from places that are staunchly against minorities of cultural and religious kinds. What do you guys think of the future if the Jews in Europe?
Story here:http://m.voanews.com/a/fears-mount-resurgent-anti-semitism-europe/3166103.html

First, a clarification of terms. An anti-semite is a person, usually but not necessarily a Christian, who is hated by Jews.

Second, I'm as big of an opponent of The Islamic invasion as the next guy, but ultimately Muslims will have less of a subversive effect on European society than the Jews have. Jews are for the most part more intelligent, more liberal, and in general better able to become members of the elite than Muslims.

[Judean Zealot]

First, a clarification of terms. An anti-semite is a person, usually but not necessarily a Christian, who is hated by Jews.

Second, I'm as big of an opponent of The Islamic invasion as the next guy, but ultimately Muslims will have less of a subversive effect on European society than the Jews have. Jews are for the most part more intelligent, more liberal, and in general better able to become members of the elite than Muslims.

A further clarification of terms. A prick is a person who goes about crapping on an entire people based on a nebulous and vacuous knowledge of history and the social and intellectual evolution of the western world. "The Jews" is about as imprecise of a grouping as is possible. Excepting Protestants, we are probably the most politically and socially fractured religious group.

[Living For Love]

It's a fact that far right groups are growing in Europe and that refugees are a possible cause, but here's something I don't understand: why do all extreme-rightist groups hate Jews? And why do deny the Holocaust? I mean, if they hate Jews so much (for some reason), weren't they supposed to be glad and grateful that around 6 millions of Jews died in the Holocaust? Why denying it?

[Judean Zealot]

It's a fact that far right groups are growing in Europe and that refugees are a possible cause, but here's something I don't understand: why do all extreme-rightist groups hate Jews? And why do deny the Holocaust? I mean, if they hate Jews so much (for some reason), weren't they supposed to be glad and grateful that around 6 millions of Jews died in the Holocaust? Why denying it?

They're more or less pissed that Europeans are still (rightfully) paying restitution for the millions they murdered, the accumulated wealth they stole, the properties they expelled Jews from, and the bars of soap we so generously provided.

[Porpoise101]

It's a fact that far right groups are growing in Europe and that refugees are a possible cause, but here's something I don't understand: why do all extreme-rightist groups hate Jews? And why do deny the Holocaust? I mean, if they hate Jews so much (for some reason), weren't they supposed to be glad and grateful that around 6 millions of Jews died in the Holocaust? Why denying it?

I don't understand. I would figure some Jews would even support them if the rhetoric was never put up. I feel it is some hate that stems from the Middle Ages and hasn't really gone away. As for the Holocaust thing, they can't openly say that it was good because it makes them look even worse.

[Arkansasguy]

A further clarification of terms. A prick is a person who goes about crapping on an entire people based on a nebulous and vacuous knowledge of history and the social and intellectual evolution of the western world.

I know many pricks who don't meet that definition. ;)

"The Jews" is about as imprecise of a grouping as is possible. Excepting Protestants, we are probably the most politically and socially fractured religious group.

I don't buy the idea that because not every single member of a group is identical, that discussion of the group qua group is pointless. I'll note though that for the most part my comments about "The Jews" and their effects on the west are referring to Ashkenazi Jews.

As a side note, criticizing "the Protestants" isn't considered beyond the pale. Why might that be?

[Porpoise101]

As a side note, criticizing "the Protestants" isn't considered beyond the pale. Why might that be?
I would say it is. Nowadays, this branch is really spread out. Maybe I'd be ok with saying early Protestants because the ideas didn't diffuse as much at that time. It's like saying all Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist sects are the same.

[phuckphace]

interesting turn this thread has taken

[Judean Zealot]

I know many pricks who don't meet that definition. ;)

And you don't know many anti-semites who don't meet yours?

I don't buy the idea that because not every single member of a group is identical, that discussion of the group qua group is pointless.

I don't argue with you on that account. My point is that you are clearly unaware of the large amounts of - possibly the majority - of Western European Jews who came down on the side of capitalism and nationalism. The Jews who were communists were overwhelmingly eastern european, who were not emancipated until the Russian Revolution. Then there were the religious Jews, who were primarily right wing Zionists or disengaged from the political scene.

Thus your identification of "the Jews" of Europe as a left leaning group completely disregards the deep right/left divide that affected the Jews much as it affected the continent in general during those times.

As a side note, criticizing "the Protestants" isn't considered beyond the pale. Why might that be?


Criticising the Protestants for aspects that are broadly Protestant is fine (same goes for Jews), but that must be an accurate appraisal, such as their (the Protestants') more fideist tendencies.

The main issue is that your post was so irrelevant to the discussion of the thread, which was about the very real increase in violence against European Jews. You just ignore the very real anti semitism that is growing at an alarming rate, and even more, you do so with the same sort of shilling that your 'neo reaction' type of friends use to hand wave away the disturbing rhetoric of the European right and the historical culpability of (most of) the European nations. My point isn't to guilt monger, that serves no end. My point is that you people cannot just ignore the disturbing sentiments so prevalent in Europe (and America, to a lesser degree) and say, 'Oh, anti semitism doesn't really exist'.

[phuckphace]

Arkansasguy - are you a Holocaust denier by any chance? serious question

[Stronk Serb]

It's a fact that far right groups are growing in Europe and that refugees are a possible cause, but here's something I don't understand: why do all extreme-rightist groups hate Jews? And why do deny the Holocaust? I mean, if they hate Jews so much (for some reason), weren't they supposed to be glad and grateful that around 6 millions of Jews died in the Holocaust? Why denying it?

This us done to get rid of the stigma and reparations. I really find it funny how they hate Jews. Hitler really symphatized with Islam saying it was better than Christianity, but his today followers hate them just like the Nazis hated Jews. I really find it funny, jews never really posed a threat to European national identities and cultures, but the Muslim 'refugees' do yet the far-righters still hate the Jew.

[Porpoise101]

I really find it funny, jews never really posed a threat to European national identities and cultures, but the Muslim 'refugees' do yet the far-righters still hate the Jew.
I think they hate both. And some Englishmen hate Indians.

By the way, is your favored party, The Gates, anti semitic?

[Arkansasguy]

And you don't know many anti-semites who don't meet yours?

I know some who don't. Granted, that's all on the internet. I've never met an anti-semite in real life (though I have met people who were anti-Christian as well as "Islamophobes").

I don't argue with you on that account. My point is that you are clearly unaware of the large amounts of - possibly the majority - of Western European Jews who came down on the side of capitalism and nationalism. The Jews who were communists were overwhelmingly eastern european, who were not emancipated until the Russian Revolution. Then there were the religious Jews, who were primarily right wing Zionists or disengaged from the political scene.

Thus your identification of "the Jews" of Europe as a left leaning group completely disregards the deep right/left divide that affected the Jews much as it affected the continent in general during those times.

Capitalism itself is a liberal and revolutionary idea. Was there any European revolution (as in, where the state was nonliberal before the revolution) where the majority of Jews weren't on the side of the revolutionaries?

Criticising the Protestants for aspects that are broadly Protestant is fine (same goes for Jews), but that must be an accurate appraisal, such as their (the Protestants') more fideist tendencies.

The main issue is that your post was so irrelevant to the discussion of the thread, which was about the very real increase in violence against European Jews. You just ignore the very real anti semitism that is growing at an alarming rate, and even more, you do so with the same sort of shilling that your 'neo reaction' type of friends use to hand wave away the disturbing rhetoric of the European right and the historical culpability of (most of) the European nations. My point isn't to guilt monger, that serves no end. My point is that you people cannot just ignore the disturbing sentiments so prevalent in Europe (and America, to a lesser degree) and say, 'Oh, anti semitism doesn't really exist'.

How often have you acknowledged the "historical culpability" of the Jews in anything? Why should I lambast my people when you don't (and I wouldn't expect you to)?

Arkansasguy - are you a Holocaust denier by any chance? serious question

No, although I've never done any serious research into its historicity.

[phuckphace]

This us done to get rid of the stigma and reparations.

denying the Holocaust is really counterproductive though, and only has the effect of alienating people who might otherwise be interested in right-wing nationalism. there are a lot of kooks on the far-right because they don't police their ranks or hold one another to any real standard - it's just a matter of sharing the same general list of enemies and you're in. then you end up with only weirdos. then normies see this and they run.

I agree that multi-generational guilt and culpability are bullshit and shouldn't be a thing, but there are a lot of ways this could be productively countered without kookery. unfortunately almost nobody does.

Hitler really symphatized with Islam saying it was better than Christianity[...]

definitely not a point in his favor. another thing the kooks like to do is dump on Europe's Christian heritage and shill for alien religions that are far more backwards and incompatible with Western civilization. the kookiest of the kooks will even say Christianity should be outright opposed because it's a Jewish conspiracy (lol read a book nigga.) just goes to show how crazy it can really get.

[...]but his today followers hate them just like the Nazis hated Jews. I really find it funny, jews never really posed a threat to European national identities and cultures, but the Muslim 'refugees' do yet the far-righters still hate the Jew.

they have plenty of resentment toward Muslims but they see the whole Eurabia thing as, again, part of a grand conspiracy by the eternal Jew. of course that makes literally zero sense because the logical conclusion is another Holocaust at the hands of Muslims, but making sense has apparently never been a requirement for these people.

~vote for phuckphace it is your duty~

[Vlerchan]

Fun fact about Neoreaction: Moldbug is Jewish [non-practising].

Was there any European revolution (as in, where the state was nonliberal before the revolution) where the majority of Jews weren't on the side of the revolutionaries?
Was there any European revolution (as in, where the state was nonliberal before the revolution) where the majority of Jews hadn't been systematically disenfranchised beforehand?

[Arkansasguy]

Fun fact about Neoreaction: Moldbug is Jewish [non-practising].

I'm aware of that. I don't identify as NRx for much the same reasons I don't identify as a neocon. The original is greater than the copy.

Was there any European revolution (as in, where the state was nonliberal before the revolution) where the majority of Jews hadn't been systematically disenfranchised beforehand?

Not that I'm aware of.

[Vlerchan]

I'm aware of that. I don't identify as NRx for much the same reasons I don't identify as a neocon. The original is greater than the copy.
I wouldn't identify you with NeoReaction either. I place you right abouts where I place De Maistre.

Would you consider that correct enough?

---

I also think that Neoreaction extends reaction in a number of ways that would be unfathomable to its original thinkers.

Not that I'm aware of.
I couldn't think of any either.

Can you imagine any reason why the Jews might have an incentive to remain loyal to the regimes that disenfranchised them?

[Arkansasguy]

I wouldn't identify you with NeoReaction either. I place you right abouts where I place De Maistre.

Would you consider that correct enough?

Yes, that's definitely correct. I'm an old school reactionary.

I also think that Neoreaction extends reaction in a number of ways that would be unfathomable to its original thinkers.

Most certainly.

I couldn't think of any either.

Can you imagine any reason why the Jews might have an incentive to remain loyal to the regimes that disenfranchised them?

Their motives aren't really pertinent.

[Vlerchan]

Their motives aren't really pertinent.
I think the motives of Jews is worth considering here. Your issue with the Jews is that the Jews tend to side against reactionaries - this seems bizarre when it's considered reactionaries have set themselves up against Jews first.

It doesn't seem like there's anyone for them to blame than themselves here.

[Stronk Serb]

I think they hate both. And some Englishmen hate Indians.

By the way, is your favored party, The Gates, anti semitic?

Not really. They sort of sympathize with Jews, comparing their suffering to the suffering of the Serbian people.

denying the Holocaust is really counterproductive though, and only has the effect of alienating people who might otherwise be interested in right-wing nationalism. there are a lot of kooks on the far-right because they don't police their ranks or hold one another to any real standard - it's just a matter of sharing the same general list of enemies and you're in. then you end up with only weirdos. then normies see this and they run.

I agree that multi-generational guilt and culpability are bullshit and shouldn't be a thing, but there are a lot of ways this could be productively countered without kookery. unfortunately almost nobody does.



definitely not a point in his favor. another thing the kooks like to do is dump on Europe's Christian heritage and shill for alien religions that are far more backwards and incompatible with Western civilization. the kookiest of the kooks will even say Christianity should be outright opposed because it's a Jewish conspiracy (lol read a book nigga.) just goes to show how crazy it can really get.



they have plenty of resentment toward Muslims but they see the whole Eurabia thing as, again, part of a grand conspiracy by the eternal Jew. of course that makes literally zero sense because the logical conclusion is another Holocaust at the hands of Muslims, but making sense has apparently never been a requirement for these people.

~vote for phuckphace it is your duty~

Yeah. I'll just stop worrying and love the kebab. If nothing else, right-wingers should team up with the Jews to mitigate and combat Muslim agressions. Also yesterday on the private public transport I met your favourite Serb (except me), Vojislav Šešelj. I let him have my seat.

[Vlerchan]

Not really. They sort of sympathize with Jews, comparing their suffering to the suffering of the Serbian people.
Doesn't the Serbian far-right like to harp on about the Jews being implicated in the NATO intervention.

I remember coming across that before.

[Judean Zealot]

Capitalism itself is a liberal and revolutionary idea. Was there any European revolution (as in, where the state was nonliberal before the revolution) where the majority of Jews weren't on the side of the revolutionaries?

As Vlerchan put it, the fact that they sided with the people who gave them basic human rights (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_emancipation) and against the people who used to draft 9 year old Jewish kids (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0004_0_03914.html) into their armies is a pretty bizarre reason to blame them for 'ruining Europe'. Perhaps it was the brutal excesses of the most Christian tyrants of Europe that bears responsibility for the collapse of the ancien regime?



How often have you acknowledged the "historical culpability" of the Jews in anything? Why should I lambast my people when you don't (and I wouldn't expect you to)?

We haven't held much power historically, but I do acknowledge that the destruction of the Second Temple was the fault of no one but ourselves, the Kitos War (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War) was an outbreak of inexcusable savagery, and our current unwillingness to make peace with the Palestinians is a mark of shame on us.

[phuckphace]

I also think that Neoreaction extends reaction in a number of ways that would be unfathomable to its original thinkers.

it's literally right-wing fanfic of the "self-published graphic novel" variety

you can't make this shit up (but the orthosphere can)

[Judean Zealot]

Doesn't the Serbian far-right like to harp on about the Jews being implicated in the NATO intervention.

I remember coming across that before.

Idk, Israel has pretty consistently sided with Serbia, and still don't recognise Kossovo.

[Arkansasguy]

I think the motives of Jews is worth considering here. Your issue with the Jews is that the Jews tend to side against reactionaries - this seems bizarre when it's considered reactionaries have set themselves up against Jews first.

It doesn't seem like there's anyone for them to blame than themselves here.

I never assigned blame, I just observed the fact that the Jews have been subversive to Europe.

Though for the record, I don't consider legally favoring one religion over another to be tyrannical.

As Vlerchan put it, the fact that they sided with the people who gave them basic human rights (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_emancipation) and against the people who used to draft 9 year old Jewish kids (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0004_0_03914.html) into their armies is a pretty bizarre reason to blame them for 'ruining Europe'. Perhaps it was the brutal excesses of the most Christian tyrants of Europe that bears responsibility for the collapse of the ancien regime?[QUOTE]

If you carefully reread my posts, you'll note that I didn't assign blame. I don't "blame" the Muslims for taking advantage of European stupidity either, but that doesn't mean I believe they should be permitted to as they are.

[QUOTE]We haven't held much power historically, but I do acknowledge that the destruction of the Second Temple was the fault of no one but ourselves, the Kitos War (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War) was an outbreak of inexcusable savagery, and our current unwillingness to make peace with the Palestinians is a mark of shame on us.

What about the persecution of Christians in the 1st century by Jewish authorities? Justified or no?

it's literally right-wing fanfic of the "self-published graphic novel" variety

you can't make this shit up (but the orthosphere can)

You know they aren't NRx, right?

[Vlerchan]

I never assigned blame, I just observed the fact that the Jews have been subversive to Europe.

Though for the record, I don't consider legally favoring one religion over another to be tyrannical.
I never labelled it tyrannical. I labelled it a incentive for Jews to join the opposition.

You're claiming that the Jews caused problems. But the reason that Jews are causing these problems is because reactionaries took actions against them for being Jews [so it gets back to there being something else wrong with being Jewish - I imagine being just Jewish]. You can claim that there's no blame being assigned here but the basic fact is that the problems that the Jews might have caused are steeped in the realities that reactionaries designed themselves.

Your original question to Judean Zealot lays out an entirely unfair criterion for Jews to meet as a result: reactionaries set up a situation where Jews were excluded from being able to be 'good' and heavily incentivised to be 'bad' within the definitions that you have used. In other words the Jews come out as subversive because the playing field has been titled in favour of Christian-reactionaries.

It's no place to judge Jew's involvement in European history from and because of that has no predictive power worth acknowledging.

---

For the record I also don't consider Jews majority opposing Monarchical regimes to be bad for Europe. But that's irrelevant.

Idk, Israel has pretty consistently sided with Serbia, and still don't recognise Kossovo.
I could be entirely wrong. I can't even remember where I heard that.

it's literally right-wing fanfic of the "self-published graphic novel" variety

you can't make this shit up (but the orthosphere can)
I find the description insightful (at times): the prescriptions nuts.

[Judean Zealot]

What about the persecution of Christians in the 1st century by Jewish authorities? Justified or no?


To the extent that it was condemned as idolatry it was entirely justified. To the extent that it suppressed conscience it was not.

[Arkansasguy]

I never labelled it tyrannical. I labelled it a incentive for Jews to join the opposition.

You're claiming that the Jews caused problems. But the reason that Jews are causing these problems is because reactionaries took actions against them for being Jews [so it gets back to there being something else wrong with being Jewish - I imagine being just Jewish]. You can claim that there's no blame being assigned here but the basic fact is that the problems that the Jews might have caused are steeped in the realities that reactionaries designed themselves.

Your original question to Judean Zealot lays out an entirely unfair criterion for Jews to meet as a result: reactionaries set up a situation where Jews were excluded from being able to be 'good' and heavily incentivised to be 'bad' within the definitions that you have used. In other words the Jews come out as subversive because the playing field has been titled in favour of Christian-reactionaries.

It's no place to judge Jew's involvement in European history from and because of that has no predictive power worth acknowledging.

---

For the record I also don't consider Jews majority opposing Monarchical regimes to be bad for Europe. But that's irrelevant.


I could be entirely wrong. I can't even remember where I heard that.


I find the description insightful (at times): the prescriptions nuts.

In a religious state, religious minorities are always subversive to some degree by definition. So that is why they were originally subject to legal disabilities.

But the motives for them supporting the revolutions aren't relevant to the validity of the point. That they had reasons doesn't nullify the "predictive power" of the statement.

To the extent that it was condemned as idolatry it was entirely justified. To the extent that it suppressed conscience it was not.

So the answer is . . .

[Judean Zealot]

So the answer is . . .

Partially. Not everything in life is so black and white.

[Kahn]

Not everything in life is so black and white.

Ah, if only.

[Arkansasguy]

Partially. Not everything in life is so black and white.

Fair enough.

Then you haven't grounds to complain about Christian treatment of Jews though.

[Judean Zealot]

Fair enough.

Then you haven't grounds to complain about Christian treatment of Jews though.

If you had bothered to read what I wrote two responses ago, you wouldn't be saying that.

Condemnation of idolatry = justified
Persecution of conscience = unjustified

How does that excuse the systemic persecution of the Jews?

[Vlerchan]

But the motives for them supporting the revolutions aren't relevant to the validity of the point.
I'll be straight. I consider the observation somewhere between vapid and disingenuous.

You can make the claim that Jews have a higher likelihood of being subversive but this has no statistical value insofar as Jews are not an independent variable in the equation. Jewish subversion or conditional on certain criterion being met. I'll repeat. You're ignoring the confounding factor: the actual regessor: the variable of actual significance here. This would be fine - I'd have pointed it out an left - but this trumped up situation - that's weighted in favour of what you want to hear - is then being used as justification for some form of disdain for Jewishness.

You're engaging in self-confirmation on the basis of a non-impartial test which bases itself on a complete misunderstanding of what the data demonstrates. The test is non-impartial because there's a structural bias towards reactionaries - and the data demonstrates that under certain conditions Jews will engage in certain behaviour.

The observation is true in a sense that is trivial and misleading.

That they had reasons doesn't nullify the "predictive power" of the statement.
That the variable in question is dependent on a certain set of conditions that no longer exist - does.

(Jews | Disenfranchisment) is the variable that's being looked at and then just confounded with (Jews) for no reason whatsoever.

[Arkansasguy]

If you had bothered to read what I wrote two responses ago, you wouldn't be saying that.

Condemnation of idolatry = justified
Persecution of conscience = unjustified

How does that excuse the systemic persecution of the Jews?

And how do you distinguish between those two?

If you acknowledge that truth has a right to suppress error, then there's no principle we'd both agree with that you could appeal to say that the legal restrictions against the Jews were unjustified.

I'll be straight. I consider the observation somewhere between vapid and disingenuous.

You can make the claim that Jews have a higher likelihood of being subversive but this has no statistical value insofar as Jews are not an independent variable in the equation. Jewish subversion or conditional on certain criterion being met. I'll repeat. You're ignoring the confounding factor: the actual regessor: the variable of actual significance here. This would be fine - I'd have pointed it out an left - but this trumped up situation - that's weighted in favour of what you want to hear - is then being used as justification for some form of disdain for Jewishness.

You're engaging in self-confirmation on the basis of a non-impartial test which bases itself on a complete misunderstanding of what the data demonstrates. The test is non-impartial because there's a structural bias towards reactionaries - and the data demonstrates that under certain conditions Jews will engage in certain behaviour.

The observation is true in a sense that is trivial and misleading.


That the variable in question is dependent on a certain set of conditions that no longer exist - does.

(Jews | Disenfranchisment) is the variable that's being looked at and then just confounded with (Jews) for no reason whatsoever.

Let me rephrase the original point.

As religious minorities, the Jews and the Muslims are both subversive by definition, as in they'll both degrade what little remains of Christianity in Europe.

The specific point I made was that, for a variety of reasons, the Jews are more successful at this then the Muslims will be. I fail to see how that's vapid or trivial.

[phuckphace]

Arkansasguy

middleman minorities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middleman_minority) are real, I don't think anyone contests that (or that Jews are perhaps the most prominent example of such).

the problem though is that Jews have occupied this position or variants of it for centuries, and Europe not only survived but remained otherwise homogeneous with all its traditions intact for the majority of that time. this leads me to conclude that Europe's recent self-immolation is more a sign of the times than anything else - modernity has been an unparalleled disaster.

I consider Muslims more of a direct threat since, unlike Jews they aren't content to occupy their own enclaves, with them it's "join or die." Islam prescribes a totalitarian stranglehold where dissent is not tolerated.

[Arkansasguy]

the problem though is that Jews have occupied this position or variants of it for centuries, and Europe not only survived but remained otherwise homogeneous with all its traditions intact for the majority of that time. this leads me to conclude that Europe's recent self-immolation is more a sign of the times than anything else - modernity has been an unparalleled disaster.

Europe's Christian heritage has been under unrelenting attack for the past two hundred odd years. It's true that the Church has only undergone internal collapse in the last few decades, but the majority of European states, together with the media, have been actively hostile for some time.

I consider Muslims more of a direct threat since, unlike Jews they aren't content to occupy their own enclaves, with them it's "join or die." Islam prescribes a totalitarian stranglehold where dissent is not tolerated.

Dissent is not tolerated now. (http://chalcedon.edu/Research/Articles/Swedish-Pastor-Faces-Jail-For-Preaching-Against-Homosexuality/) We already have a totalitarian stranglehold, and in any case the Left will convert most Muslim immigrants to liberalism over the course of a few decades. Their children will be cultural Muslims, another wedge minority.

I also find the statement that Jews are content to occupy their own enclaves problematic. The reason that Jews aren't in visible conflict with the majority culture is because the culture has been thoroughly liberalized, so the Jews (for the most part, not discussing every single Jew here) are basically in agreement with it at this point.

[Porpoise101]

Europe's Christian heritage has been under unrelenting attack for the past two hundred odd years.
*Theocratic and tyrannical Christian heritage

It has been attacked and early on, rightfully so. I think that the church lost most of its influence after the 30 Years War though, so it's not like this is a new condition.

[phuckphace]

Europe's Christian heritage has been under unrelenting attack for the past two hundred odd years. It's true that the Church has only undergone internal collapse in the last few decades, but the majority of European states, together with the media, have been actively hostile for some time.

see: modernity.

secularism in the West, might I remind you, is a product of the Enlightenment, which, as far as I can tell, was mostly or entirely goyisch in origin.

my point was that Jews held the middleman minority status for far longer than that, without any notable attacks on the Church or European identity.

Dissent is not tolerated now. (http://chalcedon.edu/Research/Articles/Swedish-Pastor-Faces-Jail-For-Preaching-Against-Homosexuality/) We already have a totalitarian stranglehold[...]

I was referring to Islamic totalitarianism wherein you convert or lose your head. if you're lucky you might get to live in an enclave as a second-class citizen if you pay the Jizyah - entirely dependent on what mood the Caliph is in. Jews, by comparison, don't actively proselytize nor do they seem particularly interested in replacing Western courts with Sanhedrins (Sharia).

[...]and in any case the Left will convert most Muslim immigrants to liberalism over the course of a few decades. Their children will be cultural Muslims, another wedge minority.

lol no. what will actually happen: Muslims gain political influence beyond a tipping point, and leftism, liberalism and other Western ideologies are crushed under Islamic fundamentalism. the Left's delusion on this matter (which you apparently share) is part of what makes a sizable Muslim presence in Europe so dangerous.

I also find the statement that Jews are content to occupy their own enclaves problematic. The reason that Jews aren't in visible conflict with the majority culture is because the culture has been thoroughly liberalized, so the Jews (for the most part, not discussing every single Jew here) are basically in agreement with it at this point.

which again leads back to my earlier point: it's the times we live in.

Martin Luther, for example, had a particularly strong dislike for the Jews, but notably it wasn't because they were pushing secularism or gay rights or whatever at the time. those are all modernist heresies that came much later.

[Judean Zealot]

And how do you distinguish between those two?

Condemnation entails combatting an idea on it's terms, whether via polemics, demonstrations, or whatever other means which serve to discredit said idea.

Persecution entails shifting the focus from the idea to it's adherents. To attempt to change someone's mind via torture or deprivation is nothing but an empty practice - considering as conscience can in no way be forced. Therefore, such acts are gratuitous cruelty directed to no proper end, and as such are wrong.

If you acknowledge that truth has a right to suppress error, then there's no principle we'd both agree with that you could appeal to say that the legal restrictions against the Jews were unjustified.

Truth has the duty to correct error, but suppression and punishment cannot effectively accomplish that, in principle. It must be accomplished via intellectual and/or polemic exercises.

It is vital to note the distinction between suppressing action and conscience. The first is necessary, while the the second is reprehensible. The ghettoisation, the disenfranchising, the forced conversions and the massacres were solely the result of the Jewish refusal to accept a rotting hunk of dead flesh as the Supreme Being. If that isn't a suppression of conscience, I don't know what is.

[Vlerchan]

Let me rephrase the original point.
The point I was having trouble comprehending was the undermining of the conservative credentials that Jews might possess.

Of course including that subversion occurs vis-a-vis the Christian faith clears a whole lot up.

Nonetheless I'm quite satisfied with where the conversation ended up here.

:)

---

see: modernity.
Can I ask when 'modernity' began?

[Arkansasguy]

see: modernity.

secularism in the West, might I remind you, is a product of the Enlightenment, which, as far as I can tell, was mostly or entirely goyisch in origin.

Sure. We brought this on ourselves. But the Jews have for the most part been quite vociferous advocates of it.

my point was that Jews held the middleman minority status for far longer than that, without any notable attacks on the Church or European identity.

Yes, under legal restrictions and widespread condemnation of their economic activity.

I was referring to Islamic totalitarianism wherein you convert or lose your head. if you're lucky you might get to live in an enclave as a second-class citizen if you pay the Jizyah - entirely dependent on what mood the Caliph is in. Jews, by comparison, don't actively proselytize nor do they seem particularly interested in replacing Western courts with Sanhedrins (Sharia).

Saying that the Jews are non-proselytizing because they aren't trying to make everyone a Jew is like saying that the Jesuits are non-proselytizing because they aren't trying to make everyone a Jesuit.

The Jews have been consistent advocates of liberalism. I've seen many Jewish groups that consider fighting "Islamophobia" to go hand in hand with fighting "anti-semitism", for instance.

lol no. what will actually happen: Muslims gain political influence beyond a tipping point, and leftism, liberalism and other Western ideologies are crushed under Islamic fundamentalism. the Left's delusion on this matter (which you apparently share) is part of what makes a sizable Muslim presence in Europe so dangerous.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it assumes that Islam is a stronger and more stable religion than Christianity (since Christianity has for the most part been stomped on by the left). Suffice to say, I find that to be a rather risible assumption. The reason that Islam hasn't been crushed by the left is because it hasn't had as much exposure.

which again leads back to my earlier point: it's the times we live in.

Martin Luther, for example, had a particularly strong dislike for the Jews, but notably it wasn't because they were pushing secularism or gay rights or whatever at the time. those are all modernist heresies that came much later.

Yet even back then, before the enlightenment, the Jews were still a problematic minority.

It is vital to note the distinction between suppressing action and conscience.

So punishing blasphemy, for instance, would be justified?

...

a rotting hunk of dead flesh as the Supreme Being.

[Judean Zealot]

So punishing blasphemy, for instance, would be justified?

No. Free speech is an integral aspect of free thought.

Yes, under legal restrictions and widespread condemnation of their economic activity.

Bear in mind that their economic activity was forced on them by the most Gracious and most Christian monarchs of Europe who prohibited Jews from owning land or joining a guild.

[Arkansasguy]

No. Free speech is an integral aspect of free thought.

Speaking is an action, no?

Should I be able to yell FIRE in a crowded theater?

[Judean Zealot]

Speaking is an action, no?

Should I be able to yell FIRE in a crowded theater?

That speaking is a physical action is irrelevant to it's end, which is intellection. Yelling "fire!" has no such end.

[Arkansasguy]

That speaking is a physical action is irrelevant to it's end, which is intellection.

Intellection in other persons, to be specific. We aren't angels, communicating inherently involves physical interaction, and moreover can affect the society in which it happens.

Yelling "fire!" has no such end.

Yelling fire has the purpose of causing other people to believe that there is a fire. If you agree to punish the false alarmist but not the false teacher, then you're simply making an unprincipled exception, as all liberals do.

[Judean Zealot]

Intellection in other persons, to be specific. We aren't angels, communicating inherently involves physical interaction, and moreover can affect the society in which it happens.

No, even to oneself. Expressing ideas plays a crucial role in the concretisation of personal belief.


Yelling fire has the purpose of causing other people to believe that there is a fire. If you agree to punish the false alarmist but not the false teacher, then you're simply making an unprincipled exception, as all liberals do.

No. Yelling fire is directed towards the end of deceit, not intellection. Even a man in error, though, can be said to be directing his speech towards intellection, unless you take the position that no honest thinker can make a mistake.

[Arkansasguy]

No, even to oneself. Expressing ideas plays a crucial role in the concretisation of personal belief.

You don't need to speak to consider something yourself, you only need to speak to get others to consider it. That having the input of others helps refine one's own thought processes isn't really on point.


No. Yelling fire is directed towards the end of deceit, not intellection.

Deceit is a type of intellection.

[Judean Zealot]

You don't need to speak to consider something yourself, you only need to speak to get others to consider it. That having the input of others helps refine one's own thought processes isn't really on point.

No. The reciprocal freedom of speech is vital for one to have true conviction - without it he is trapped in the echo chamber of his own mind. Different people have different thought processes and mental inclination, and any viewpoint developed without social interaction will be, for the vast majority of humanity, stunted and shallow, as well as lacking the conviction borne of criticism.



Deceit is a type of intellection.

Nope (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/intellection).

Intellection: The action or process of understanding, as opposed to imagination

Deceit doesn't contribute, nor is it intended to contribute, to understanding of the world as it truly is.

[Arkansasguy]

No. The reciprocal freedom of speech is vital for one to have true conviction - without it he is trapped in the echo chamber of his own mind. Different people have different thought processes and mental inclination, and any viewpoint developed without social interaction will be, for the vast majority of humanity, stunted and shallow, as well as lacking the conviction borne of criticism.

Which is completely besides the point that the purpose of speech is to affect the minds of others. One may be be intending that those others will respond in kind, but that doesn't nullify the immediate purpose.



Nope (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/intellection).

Intellection: The action or process of understanding, as opposed to imagination

Deceit doesn't contribute, nor is it intended to contribute, to understanding of the world as it truly is.

And by the same token, a man who unknowingly spreads falsehood doesn't contribute to understanding the world as it truly is either. You can argue that he intends to, but since I'm not an intentionalist, you'll first need to establish that intentionalism is true.

[Judean Zealot]

Which is completely besides the point that the purpose of speech is to affect the minds of others. One may be be intending that those others will respond in kind, but that doesn't nullify the immediate purpose.

The primary end of the communicative faculty has no bearing on communication's necessity for intellection of the self. It is thus protected under the rubric of conscience irrespective of it's capability to influence others.



You can argue that he intends to, but since I'm not an intentionalist, you'll first need to establish that intentionalism is true.

This is one of the most absurd things I've recently heard. If one intends to save another's life, yet accidentally ends up killing him, you would hold the rescuer as guilty as a premeditated murderer?

[Stronk Serb]

Doesn't the Serbian far-right like to harp on about the Jews being implicated in the NATO intervention.

I remember coming across that before.

Depends from party to party, but the Gates never said or did anything anti-Semitic.

[Arkansasguy]

The primary end of the communicative faculty has no bearing on communication's necessity for intellection of the self. It is thus protected under the rubric of conscience irrespective of it's capability to influence others.

You need to justify your premises here. I don't agree with the notion that we have a positive right to "freedom of thought" that extends to requiring some sort of (false) public neutrality that can ensure everyone has the ability to form their thoughts "freely".

This is one of the most absurd things I've recently heard. If one intends to save another's life, yet accidentally ends up killing him, you would hold the rescuer as guilty as a premeditated murderer?

If a man is about to accidentally kill another, should he be restrained?

[phuckphace]

not to tangent too much but since neoreaction was mentioned upthread:

Stung by accusations that [neoreactionary bloggers] are spending their lives doing for words what Bitcoin does for electricity[...]

fucking lol!!! wish I'd come up with this myself

[Arkansasguy]

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2026047

Regarding Jews being subversive, watch the interview at the end of this video.

[Vlerchan]

Regarding Jews being subversive, watch the interview at the end of this video.
What do you believe should be done with the European Jews?

In general - and then with the especially subversive ones in particular.

[Arkansasguy]

What do you believe should be done with the European Jews?

In general - and then with the especially subversive ones in particular.

Jews and other religious minorities should be restricted from holding positions of social influence (either political or economic). Censorship of subversive ideas should be in place.

[Vlerchan]

Jews and other religious minorities should be restricted from holding positions of social influence (either political or economic).
Does this just mean being Lords?

Does it extend to the capitalist economies: - i.e. exclusion from being managers (of companies - funds - etc) or owning stock (majorities) in firms?

I would appreciate an expansion of what you believe a position of economic influence is.

---

Do you also feel that there's issues at all with creating large underclasses with the common denominator being them being a religious minority?

[Porpoise101]

large underclasses with the common denominator being them being a religious minority
I feel this is a breeding ground for ideas you deem subversive. Their religion unites them and since your system can't be perfect, a few will sneak up to the higher positions and get a taste of the good life. And that will be the end.

[Arkansasguy]

Does this just mean being Lords?

Does it extend to the capitalist economies: - i.e. exclusion from being managers (of companies - funds - etc) or owning stock (majorities) in firms?

I would appreciate an expansion of what you believe a position of economic influence is.

---

Do you also feel that there's issues at all with creating large underclasses with the common denominator being them being a religious minority?

Obviously religious minorities would need to be excluded from the nobility. Also, I'd exclude them from being business owners. The current situation of there being large businesses with no single owner that are managed by people who don't own them muddies the waters, though I think that (if I could implement policies on religious minorities but couldn't abolish capitalism) I'd bar religious minorities from owning stock or sitting on the boards of corporations.

There's issues with any substantial religious minority is a religious state. Keeping them working class (as opposed to business class or aristocratic class) would mitigate their influence, though I'd note that there would also be members of the religious majority who were working class.

[Vlerchan]

I'd bar religious minorities from owning stock or sitting on the boards of corporations.
Would you allow religious minorities to invest in financial instruments or government debt at all?

Edit: Will you let the Jews leave with their assets upon reaching power? I presume a number of other powers would be willing to give such historical high-achievers asylum.

There's issues with any substantial religious minority is a religious state.
The point I'm making is that there's a lot more of an issue with the quasi-disenfranchised working class Muslims of France - that preceded to forge identities with states and movements outside their host culture - than the middle-class Muslims in France.

Like I argued earlier: you're expanding the problem.

[Arkansasguy]

Would you allow religious minorities to invest in financial instruments or government debt at all?

Fiat money is government debt. So yes, I would allow religious minorities to use money. I don't support variable government debt (where the value of the debt becomes worth more over time relative to standard money).

Edit: Will you let the Jews leave with their assets upon reaching power? I presume a number of other powers would be willing to give such historical high-achievers asylum.

I wouldn't seize assets from individuals without compensation, though economic restrictions could make selling incentivized (if you can't run a business, you'd want to sell the business assets).

The point I'm making is that there's a lot more of an issue with the quasi-disenfranchised working class Muslims of France - that preceded to forge identities with states and movements outside their host culture - than the middle-class Muslims in France.

Like I argued earlier: you're expanding the problem.

I don't agree that middle-class Muslims are non-problematic.

[Vlerchan]

So yes, I would allow religious minorities to use money.
I mean government bonds and other debt-obligations.

I'm also still curious. Would you let Jews invest in financial instruments - or commodities: land: currencies: etc.

I presume the next sentence is an indication that you don't support interest-bearing debt.
I presume this sentence is an indication that you don't support interest-bearing debt.

---

I'm not sure why you expect people to take on risk at the same value as not taking on risk but that isn't the topic of this thread I guess.

I wouldn't seize assets from individuals without compensation, though economic restrictions could make selling incentivized (if you can't run a business, you'd want to sell the business assets).
The issue here is that - particularly in firms with Jews as majority stakeholders - the share-prices would take a dive.

I'd suggest taking a look at the month preceding the ascension of Syriza to see what turn markets and capital outflows take when investors - or a certain subset thereof - don't believe that the next administration will act in their interests.

Nonetheless the more important question is whether you'd allow Jews to emigrate. I'd appreciate an answer.

I don't agree that middle-class Muslims are non-problematic.
Please note the use of the qualifier: "a lot more" which was the most important part of that sentence.

Do you think that quasi-disenfranchised working class Muslims are more of an issue than "middle-class Muslims"?

[Arkansasguy]

I mean government bonds and other debt-obligations.

I'm also still curious. Would you let Jews invest in financial instruments - or commodities: land: currencies: etc.

I would allow Jews to use money, yes. And I would allow them to own land, but keep in mind I would restrict the ability of commoners to own large amounts of land.

The issue here is that - particularly in firms with Jews as majority stakeholders - the share-prices would take a dive.

I'd suggest taking a look at the month preceding the ascension of Syriza to see what turn markets and capital outflows take when investors - or a certain subset thereof - don't believe that the next administration will act in their interests.

I am not concerned with the value of corporate stock. I don't support the stock market in the first place.

Nonetheless the more important question is whether you'd allow Jews to emigrate. I'd appreciate an answer.

Sure. They'd be free to leave.

Please note the use of the qualifier: "a lot more" which was the most important part of that sentence.

Do you think that quasi-disenfranchised working class Muslims are more of an issue than "middle-class Muslims"?

No. Crime and such is problematic, but ideological subversion is a bigger threat.

[Vlerchan]

I am not concerned with the value of corporate stock. I don't support the stock market in the first place.
The point I was making is that your solution isn't as equitable as might appear at first glance - if it appeared as such.

I'm also not going to discuss the economics issues here.

Sure. They'd be free to leave.
Just wanted to make sure.

No. Crime and such is problematic, but ideological subversion is a bigger threat.
In the original question I linked their disenfranchised statues to a greater ideological subversion when I claimed that these would precede to "forge identities with states and movements outside their host culture".

You're inviting foreign ideas into the state.

[Arkansasguy]

In the original question I linked their disenfranchised statues to a greater ideological subversion when I claimed that these would precede to "forge identities with states and movements outside their host culture".

You're inviting foreign ideas into the state.

In a religious state, religious minorities are always adherents of subversive beliefs. It's better for such persons to be low-class than middle-class.

Something obstructing your view of this is your discussion of French middle and lower class Muslims. France effectively has militant secularism as its official ideology, and most middle class French Muslims agree with this, so they don't relate to the state in the way they would if Frsnce were still a Catholic country.

[Porpoise101]

France effectively has militant secularism as its official ideology, and most middle class French Muslims agree with this, so they don't relate to the state in the way they would if Frsnce were still a Catholic country.
I think that the French Muslims don't conform as much with this secularism because they don't ever become French since they are a perpetual minority, religious and ethnic.

[Vlerchan]

France effectively has militant secularism as its official ideology, and most middle class French Muslims agree with this, so they don't relate to the state in the way they would if France were still a Catholic country.
I would appreciate a source here. Thank you.

[Arkansasguy]

I would appreciate a source here. Thank you.

For which part?

[Vlerchan]

For which part?
"most middle class French Muslims agree with [militant secularism]"