EU referendum: UK renegotiations 'not top of EU agenda'

[tovaris]

The UK's EU renegotiation is not the top priority for EU leaders but the "ambition" is still for a February deal, the foreign secretary has said.


Philip Hammond said the talks "are number one on our Europe agenda" but the EU has "other issues on its plate".

It comes amid mounting speculation of a June vote after preparations for the referendum got under way on Tuesday.

Mr Hammond said a June date would be possible if a deal was agreed at next month's European Council summit.

But he stressed that it was more important to get the "right deal" rather than a "quick deal".

David Cameron is renegotiating the UK's relationship with the EU, ahead of the vote to be held by the end of 2017.

One of the main sticking points in the talks, appears to be UK proposals to restrict EU migrants' access to benefits for four years - with some countries warning it amounts to discrimination.

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35410650

[lliam]

I think in general are those renegotiations not of particular importance, but just politically, national banter.

Thinking about the worst case, the exit of a country from the EU, e.g. the UK ... IMO this certainly might be a rough loss, but it would be bearable.

[Judean Zealot]

I think in general are those renegotiations not of particular importance, but just politically, national banter.

Thinking about the worst case, the exit of a country from the EU, e.g. the UK ... IMO this certainly might be a rough loss, but it would be bearable.

The question is if that will cause a domino effect with other disaffected European countries or political factions.

[lliam]

The question is if that will cause a domino effect with other disaffected European countries or political factions.


IMO, it's an to be expected fact in any case. The question I would prefer instead, is rather how to offset the conceivable disadvantages, to ensure the whole union doesn't dissolving completely.

I'm already of the opinion that the EU expanded too fast in the last two decades. Important developments that truly could've let evolve the Union to a stable social Community were reckless neglected.

The EU's problem is actually quite simple: The Member States don't see themselves as a social community, rather than what it once was at the beginning: A composite of economic interests.

But that's no longer enough. Members are primarily concerned to their own advantage, and use internally the juggernaut EU as a scapegoat for undesirable developments.

So, you mustn't be an clairvoyant to know that this means that the EU actually is built on quicksand. Just the title of this thread proves that ... in my opinion.

[Vlerchan]

The Member States don't see themselves as a social community[.]
That's because there can't be a common discourse so long as the current level of ethno-linguistic fragmentation exists. German people - or the French: or the Poles - don't want to carry out their politics in English which is more or less what common discourse entails. Until that happens people are going to talk European politics through the medium of national electoral politics - which is more or less what the Irish Euro-vote is based on.

The U.K. is also quite unlikely to leave. Cameron clearly -explicitly - doesn't want it and you can be certain this referendum will be timed so he gets what he wants.

[lliam]

That's because there can't be a common discourse so long as the current level of ethno-linguistic fragmentation exists. German people - or the French: or the Poles - don't want to carry out their politics in English which is more or less what common discourse entails. Until that happens people are going to talk European politics through the medium of national electoral politics - which is more or less what the Irish Euro-vote is based on.

Ah, here again we've the imagined fear of losing the own cultural identity.

But that's life. When a state evolves or is made from many small states, always something gets lost from their own culture. E.g, there's a reason why it's said, that Scottish isn't a language anymore, but just a dialect. And this historically repeated in every country in Europe. So what's the fuss?


Cause we still think so, regarding to the EU, imo, it only shows that we all are such a bunch of whiners and losers. Particularly with regard to the much larger, international influences on our own languages.




The U.K. is also quite unlikely to leave. Cameron clearly -explicitly - doesn't want it and you can be certain this referendum will be timed so he gets what he wants.

yeah, i got that impression twice whilst watching bbc news.

[Vlerchan]

Ah, here again we've the imagined fear of losing the own cultural identity.
You're mistaken. I don't fear this. But it stops others and that's a genuine problem that handwaving and citing examples of dead cultures under the thumbs of others isn't going to solve.

[Stronk Serb]

Well, the European Union was destined for this from the start.

[tovaris]

I think in general are those renegotiations not of particular importance, but just politically, national banter.

Thinking about the worst case, the exit of a country from the EU, e.g. the UK ... IMO this certainly might be a rough loss, but it would be bearable.

I say good ridens, f*** the UK, they are barely a member as it is, and were the main force that stopped the EU constitution from becoming realety.

[Vlerchan]

[...] and were the main force that stopped the EU constitution from becoming realety.
Both France and Hollande voted down the European constitution.

Nonetheless the Lisbon Treaty is a reprint of the proposed constitution - it past: albeit under a different name.

---

EU also offered the UK some token concessions and Cameron is running with it.

[tovaris]

Both France and Hollande voted down the European constitution.

Nonetheless the Lisbon Treaty is a reprint of the proposed constitution - it past: albeit under a different name.

---

EU also offered the UK some token concessions and Cameron is running with it.

UK didnt ratify Lisbon fully. I say we chase the out. Use € you british wankers!

Also their ties to the US (basicly a colony) will make it dificult for EU emancipation from the teror organisation called NATO

[Vlerchan]

UK didnt ratify Lisbon fully.
It ratified Lisbon for the most part - the opt-outs it has are shared with other states and are agreed upon within the Union as part of the text. Nonetheless the opt-outs it has within Lisbon are minor - the Charter being ineffective: and the Justice opt-out being more or less relevant to just Schengan material.

Use € you british wankers!
Nothing good would come out of this for Britian. The bigger likelihood is that what good comes from using the pound would be replaced with an awful lot of bad.

Also their ties to the US (basicly a colony) will make it dificult for EU emancipation from the teror organisation called NATO
Right.

[tovaris]

It ratified Lisbon for the most part - the opt-outs it has are shared with other states and are agreed upon within the Union as part of the text. Nonetheless the opt-outs it has within Lisbon are minor - the Charter being ineffective: and the Justice opt-out being more or less relevant to just Schengan material.



For the most part.... Kind of the point if Lisbon is that everione agrees to the same rules.
Schengen is extremly important to the EU as a whole.


Nothing good would come out of this for Britian. The bigger likelihood is that what good comes from using the pound would be replaced with an awful lot of bad.


Everione else HAS to adopt the €, i as a EU citizen do not want to tolerate a hisi gay child of a country in my federation like org.

[lliam]

I say good ridens, f*** the UK, they are barely a member as it is, and were the main force that stopped the EU constitution from becoming realety.


I live almost 4 months in GB now. Of course I can base my impressions just on those peps I met so far, but since I've already spoken with folks from southwest up to the high Scottish north, I would claim that the British in general are much more European than they want to admit to themself.^^

IMO, the classic clichéd Continental phobia here hasn't little to do with the EU, in general. The personal views of the British on the EU is spitting same to those views of any ordinary citizens in other EU countries.

To put it plainly, if the German Joe Bloggs could decide, in many cases Gernany would've repeatedly threatened to leave the EU.

At least it's questionable whether the Euro has ever been established in Germany. And certainly the approval of the European Constitution would have been rejected under certain circumstances. Just two examples.


So, who says German are set pro EU in general, is mistaken. Just because Germany very benefits from the EU, the country is still a member of the EU.

And this is applies also to most Member States. The EU is thus a pure special purpose association.

Who says German are set pro EU, is mistaken. Just because Germany benefits greatly from the EU, the country is still a member of the EU. And I claim, this is same with the most EU counties.

Therefore, the EU is thus a pure special purpose association. Mustn't even to be bad. But it doesn't match the expectations of most EU citizens.


I think it's a rerun or such if I say that over the past two decades a lot of developments have been forced to quickly within the EU.

Neither the Euro nor the idealized European Constitution have boosted the EU. The time just isn't yet ripe to talk about a common Europe or such.

It took 2,000 years 'til we overcame the whole warlike skirmishes we suffere from through those times . And it certainly will again take as much time if really any local patridiot somewhere in Europe gets the feeling of being a European.

[Vlerchan]

For the most part.... Kind of the point if Lisbon is that everione agrees to the same rules.
The Union as a whole signed off on exemptions for the UK, Denmark and Poland. Nonetheless that the Charter has been for the most part absorbed into the doctrine of fundemental rights means that exemptions for both Poland and the UK are quote limited.

Schengen is extremly important to the EU as a whole.
It looks to be being dismantled at the moment - for all its importance.

Nonetheless a number of states have exemptions for that. Being part of not one of the four freedoms or fundemental rights means it's of at most second tier importance.

Everione else HAS to adopt the €,
The EU decided yesterday it would concede through legislation that the EU was a union of currencies.

Nonetheless having states with non-aligned business cycles and divergent cultures share a currency is senseless. I would dissolve the euro tommorow if it was possible.

I have no idea what the rest of the post is about.

[tovaris]

The Union as a whole signed off on exemptions for the UK, Denmark and Poland. Nonetheless that the Charter has been for the most part absorbed into the doctrine of fundemental rights means that exemptions for both Poland and the UK are quote limited.
/.../

No exceptions should be allowed, especial to a country like the UK. Comply or get out is what I say.


/.../
It looks to be being dismantled at the moment - for all its importance.

Nonetheless a number of states have exemptions for that. Being part of not one of the four freedoms or fundemental rights means it's of at most second tier importance.
/.../


At the moment Schengen is temporally suspended in some Countries due to Merkels stupidity.
If a country is not in the Schengen the EU cannot rely on them to keep the border, example Croatia! Croatia refused to comply to EU standards during the fall influx of migrants, it even committed a what could be considered an act of war on a member state. Schengen must apply to all of EU.


/.../
The EU decided yesterday it would concede through legislation that the EU was a union of currencies.
/.../


Yesterday? That's stupid and against EU law and joining proceeding where a country woves to adopt the €.


/.../
Nonetheless having states with non-aligned business cycles and divergent cultures share a currency is senseless. I would dissolve the euro tommorow if it was possible.

I have no idea what the rest of the post is about.

I'm not agruing for or against the € ATM, I'm only saying that if it applies to the little guy it has to apply t the big childish country-UK.

------------------

I live almost 4 months in GB now. Of course I can base my impressions just on those peps I met so far, but since I've already spoken with folks from southwest up to the high Scottish north, I would claim that the British in general are much more European than they want to admit to themself.^^

IMO, the classic clichéd Continental phobia here hasn't little to do with the EU, in general. The personal views of the British on the EU is spitting same to those views of any ordinary citizens in other EU countries.

To put it plainly, if the German Joe Bloggs could decide, in many cases Gernany would've repeatedly threatened to leave the EU.

At least it's questionable whether the Euro has ever been established in Germany. And certainly the approval of the European Constitution would have been rejected under certain circumstances. Just two examples.


So, who says German are set pro EU in general, is mistaken. Just because Germany very benefits from the EU, the country is still a member of the EU.

And this is applies also to most Member States. The EU is thus a pure special purpose association.

Who says German are set pro EU, is mistaken. Just because Germany benefits greatly from the EU, the country is still a member of the EU. And I claim, this is same with the most EU counties.

Therefore, the EU is thus a pure special purpose association. Mustn't even to be bad. But it doesn't match the expectations of most EU citizens.


I think it's a rerun or such if I say that over the past two decades a lot of developments have been forced to quickly within the EU.

Neither the Euro nor the idealized European Constitution have boosted the EU. The time just isn't yet ripe to talk about a common Europe or such.

It took 2,000 years 'til we overcame the whole warlike skirmishes we suffere from through those times . And it certainly will again take as much time if really any local patridiot somewhere in Europe gets the feeling of being a European.

Weary poetic a response.

Don't get me wrong I have no illusions of a EU nation. We hate echother and will not forgive echother for generations to come.

I am to this day againced Unified Germany, because its stupid and they didn't pay for the century of crimes they bestowed upon Europe.

I am for the changing of unjust borders between the countries.

And I think we should unite more closely on blood basis, a Slovene will never vote for a"filthy" German, but a brother Check, yes.

BUT, if we do live in this Union all rules must apply to everyone, no exceptions and no diplomatic double think (khm Kosovo, Crimea, South Ostesia, Syria...)

[Vlerchan]

No exceptions should be allowed, especial to a country like the UK. Comply or get out is what I say.
It's not in the Union's interests to force out states like the UK or Denmark or Ireland. Your absolutist approach is never going to be implemented because the Union has a future to consider.

It might feel good to make these decisions but doing so would likely turn out to be disastrous.

At the moment Schengen is temporally suspended in some Countries due to Merkels stupidity.
What has Merkel done if the refugees are getting into the Union through Greece and Italy?

Schengen must apply to all of EU.
Legally there's no basis to this.

Politically it would be imprudent to say the least.

That's stupid and against EU law and joining proceeding where a country woves to adopt the €.
It's not against European Union law to allow states to exist outside the Euro. In particular it won't be when the Union legislates for it to be the case.

I'm not agruing for or against the € ATM, I'm only saying that if it applies to the little guy it has to apply t the big childish country-UK.
You're missing the implications of the point I'm making. Forcing a state into a broken currency Union - in particular when it's population see it's own currency as fielding far superior results - involves a complete lack of thinking outside the present-tense.

[Chapperz16]

I think that the pros and cons of us being in the EU or not are not being made totally clear to the average 17/18 year old. I have a basic understanding of what the EU provides and the issues which have arised from the organisation of it though I believe the public need to know more about the effects leaving or staying in the EU will have.

[lliam]

Weary poetic a response.

Merde. I must doing something wrong. Now I'm seen as a poet. Most of my post was ironic. such as : Patridiot ... Patriot + idiot. I'm depressed.


Don't get me wrong I have no illusions of a EU nation. We hate echother and will not forgive echother for generations to come.


Confirms my theory that we humans aren't really rational beings.


And I think we should unite more closely on blood basis, a Slovene will never vote for a"filthy" German, but a brother Check, yes.

That's so emotional. Personally I''m not into this blood bonding stuff, cause I once realized every resident of Timbuktu could be consanguineously closer to me than my own genetically brother is.


I am to this day againced Unified Germany, because its stupid

I easily could live with two German states. Under the roof of the actual existing EU both states were reunited anyway.


they didn't pay for the century of crimes they bestowed upon Europe.

OK. We paid and are still paying, in one or another way, but thatt's a topic of another thread. It's sufficient here to say, for peoples who suffered hardest from German aggressions, any kind of restitution will never be sufficient.


I am for the changing of unjust borders between the countries.

Formally this is done already within the EU. The generall problem is rather the borders in our minds. Applied to the world it's just a non achievable project. At least not for the next 500 year, I guess.


BUT, if we do live in this Union all rules must apply to everyone, no exceptions and no diplomatic double think (khm Kosovo, Crimea, South Ostesia, Syria...)


As just for Euruope, tell it to the politicians of your country. For those of my country I need not even to try. They've already proven that they aren't willing to practice this. Even they propagate it permanently.

And as for equality and such ... this will only work when each european country is ready to cede a large part of their own sovereignty to the EU.

But , bro, that also means, under some circumstances, you've to be ready to vote for a German dude.^^


And transferred to the whole world I certainly see no hope.

[tovaris]

I think that the pros and cons of us being in the EU or not are not being made totally clear to the average 17/18 year old. I have a basic understanding of what the EU provides and the issues which have arised from the organisation of it though I believe the public need to know more about the effects leaving or staying in the EU will have.

The Crown has a history of deceving its public (khm Scotland khm milk)

#FreeScotland !!!

-------------------



It's not in the Union's interests to force out states like the UK or Denmark or Ireland. Your absolutist approach is never going to be implemented because the Union has a future to consider.

It might feel good to make these decisions but doing so would likely turn out to be disastrous.
/.../


I call doublethink!


Is it in EUs interest to force the Visegrad Group (http://www.visegradgroup.eu/) to harbour refugees, even when the refugees dont want to live in fuckin poland?
Is it in EUs interest to force spending cut bacs on "independent" countries?
Is it in EUs interest to force Denmark, Slovenia... to accept a country like Croatia into the union?

http://controversy.amorphia-apparel.com/img450/doublethink.png


/.../
What has Merkel done if the refugees are getting into the Union through Greece and Italy?
/.../


Errm, INVITED THEM IN! Saying everione is welcome! (Also the destruction of Greece economicly, which is now conplet)


/.../
Legally there's no basis to this.

Politically it would be imprudent to say the least.
/.../


What sense does it make to have a union with no comon border?


/.../
It's not against European Union law to allow states to exist outside the Euro. In particular it won't be when the Union legislates for it to be the case.
/.../


Actuly it is. Every country that joines wowes to reduce inflation and public debt to a certan lewel and adopt the €. It is a must.


/.../
You're missing the implications of the point I'm making. Forcing a state into a broken currency Union - in particular when it's population see it's own currency as fielding far superior results - involves a complete lack of thinking outside the present-tense.

We should have listened to general de Gaulle (https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle) and never alowed the UK in.
I remember a time when we couldnt wait to jin the EU and at the same time UKians were burning €s on the streets in protest. At that time they should have been forced to adopt the €, that would also meen the € would be much more stabile by now. (PS Ireland would ba full of "milioners" haden't it been for € #crisis #bailout #hiperinflation)

-----------------------------------
Merde. I must doing something wrong. Now I'm seen as a poet. Most of my post was ironic. such as : Patridiot ... Patriot + idiot. I'm depressed.
/.../


I do believe its called Scheisse (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schei%C3%9Fe)


/.../
Confirms my theory that we humans aren't really rational beings.
/.../


Nobody believe they were for a second.


/.../
That's so emotional. Personally I''m not into this blood bonding stuff, cause I once realized every resident of Timbuktu could be consanguineously closer to me than my own genetically brother is.
/.../


Blut ist dicker als Wasser.

Who faught with us against Bavarians? The Morava Slavs. Who helped us againced the Turks? Serbs. Who faught sholder by sholder against the Nazi beast? Yugoslavians. Who came to the rescue of opressed brothers? The russians.

We are family! We help echother.


/.../
I easily could live with two German states. Under the roof of the actual existing EU both states were reunited anyway.
/.../


Osie or Wesie? What are You?

Also the borders within the EU are wery much real. Slovenians in Austra, Italy, Hungary remain to be opressed, our nation keeps shrinking due to the hostile enviorment on the other side of the border. Just because noone asks you anything when you cross doesnt mean the border isn't there comrad.


/.../
OK. We paid and are still paying, in one or another way, but thatt's a topic of another thread. It's sufficient here to say, for peoples who suffered hardest from German aggressions, any kind of restitution will never be sufficient.
/.../


We tore up Versais! You stil owe to Yugoslavia extreme amounts of cash! You have way too much land.

Yes tis is :oftopic: so go to: http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=534


/.../
Formally this is done already within the EU. The generall problem is rather the borders in our minds. Applied to the world it's just a non achievable project. At least not for the next 500 year, I guess.
/.../

I refere you to my last reply reguarding borders.


/.../
As just for Euruope, tell it to the politicians of your country.
/.../


Oh dont get me started on them, the only cure is a bulet.


/.../
For those of my country I need not even to try. They've already proven that they aren't willing to practice this. Even they propagate it permanently.
/.../


Kosovo, Crimea.


/.../
And as for equality and such ... this will only work when each european country is ready to cede a large part of their own sovereignty to the EU.
/.../


Particulary exeption countries like UK. We the small ones alredy have no soverenety.


/.../
But , bro, that also means, under some circumstances, you've to be ready to vote for a German dude.^^
/.../


In the cunrent EU that would never be even posible to happen. And if it were i rathe live in Russia.


/.../

And transferred to the whole world I certainly see no hope.

Putin.

[Vlerchan]

I call doublethink!
I appreciate when the criticisms against me are put in clear terms.

Is it in EUs interest to force the Visegrad Group to harbour refugees, even when the refugees dont want to live in fuckin poland?
It's in the interest of the Union to share the burden of the refugee crisis across the member states. This stops tensions from being concentrated.

Is it in EUs interest to force spending cut bacs on "independent" countries?
No. But then each of the independent states in question signed off on this Fiscal Compact themselves.

I can't help that.

Is it in EUs interest to force Denmark, Slovenia... to accept a country like Croatia into the union?
Yes. It institutionalises potential conflict.

Errm, INVITED THEM IN! Saying everione is welcome!
This didn't happen until the crisis is well in motion - and this was based on their international commitments. Nonetheless I'm not going to criticise the Germans for attempting to approach and solve the issue as opposed to just pushing it on the next state.

What sense does it make to have a union with no comon border?
The EU still has common borders. You realise that Schengan is a no passport zone - right?

Actuly it is. Every country that joines wowes to reduce inflation and public debt to a certan lewel and adopt the €. It is a must.
Please note that the UK joined before this criterion was established. It's not bound to enter.

At that time they should have been forced to adopt the €, that would also meen the € would be much more stabile by now. (PS Ireland would ba full of "milioners" haden't it been for € #crisis #bailout #hiperinflation)
There's no reason to presume it would be more stable at all. The UK left recession on the basis of sound monetary policy that would have been inaccessible had it adopted the Euro. The Euro itself also isn't unstable - it's decline was desirable.

Please also feel free to explain the basis of the Irish crash.

[tovaris]

I appreciate when the criticisms against me are put in clear terms.
/.../


You say it is not good for the EU to force countriesto do something.... but below you claim we SHOULD force countries to do stuf. Which one is it now?


/.../
The EU still has common borders. You realise that Schengan is a no passport zone - right?
/.../


Tell me is your country curently the last defence of the schengen against Croatia?
The schengen is most definatly a border, the customs may be at EU borders, but we are EUs defence.

[Vlerchan]

You say it is not good for the EU to force countriesto do something.... but below you claim we SHOULD force countries to do stuf. Which one is it now?
Please note that I specified the first claim against a particular situation.

Nonetheless the options I responded to were all the product of mechanisms we all agreed on before hand. There was no force.

Tell me is your country curently the last defence of the schengen against Croatia?
The schengen is most definatly a border, the customs may be at EU borders, but we are EUs defence.
I have no idea what you're talking about here.

[tovaris]

Vlerchan i would apreciate if you also adressed the previous point i made in other, relevant, threads. I do try to keep on topic or at leest redirect parts of the conversation to where they are on topic

[Vlerchan]

Vlerchan i would apreciate if you also adressed the previous point i made in other, relevant, threads. I do try to keep on topic or at leest redirect parts of the conversation to where they are on topic
Sure. I'm just getting to all todays posts now: just got home.