General Immigration Discussion Thread

[Vlerchan]

The aim here is to have a single thread where we can post all news and discussion relating to immigration and refugees. It's hoped that we can avoid having a half-dozen thread discussing the same issue.

I suppose we need an opening question to get the ball rolling so:

In general, are immigrants a benefit of a cost for the society's they inhabit?

[dxcxdzv]

That's a pretty vast question. "immigrants" and "in general" can mean a lot of things.
Are we exclusively talking about the current context or is it destined to be extended to a discussion about the whole concept of immigration?

[Vlerchan]

That's a pretty vast question. "immigrants" and "in general" can mean a lot of things.
I was just trying to start an argument. You're free to talk about it in whatever form you like.

I'd intended it to mean the general concept of immigration though.

[phuckphace]

I know a lot of my posts on the subject might strike some posters as alarmist and essentially based on irrational xenophobia, but it's a bit more nuanced than that.

it's apparent that modern immigration from "developing countries", i.e. the Third World to the West is being grossly mishandled by our governments to a ridiculous degree. whether this is due to ineptitude or some purposeful conspiracy I'm inclined to say both - it seems astoundingly obvious from my own perspective and many others on the right that there's little positive net benefit to be gained from importing thousands, much less millions of extremely poor immigrants from poverty-stricken nations that don't share our values or customs. more on that in a moment.

my suspicions are supported by the behavior of the corporations who will go to virtually any length to hire a foreigner over an American, and create an artificial demand for foreign labor that could in fact be filled by natives who want and need jobs but, unlike Third Worlders, will not tolerate squalid working conditions and serf-wages. I just threw up a thread with an article outlining how this is being done. we had some silly Redditor who found the Donald Trump thread a few weeks back who basically tried to claim that we'd have another Great Depression if it weren't for our foreign serf-class who are forced to work 16 hour days for little pay (the Left has come a long way from Eugene Debs, I gotta say).

historically there are a few examples of immigrant groups assimilating more or less totally, namely the waves of Germans in the 19th and early 20th century - today, with the exception of the Amish (who are a very tiny portion) they've integrated fully, speak no German and have no cultural memory or attachment to their ancestral homeland. the only clue is perhaps a German surname that is quite likely Anglicized, such as Smith from Schmidt, etc. I think we underestimate the difficulty inherent in exchanging one culture for another and how deeply it's rooted in human psychology. your very thoughts are in your native language and local dialect - in my case general American English, and it's set in stone. even the Germans didn't really begin assimilating in earnest until they were bullied into doing so by the whole nation.

my best friend lives in Lithuania which, to me, is a fascinating country that I wouldn't mind moving to if I ever had the money to do so. but I'm not fooling myself into believing that I can just "become" Lithuanian even if I learn the language and local customs and even acquire citizenship - I'll never be Lithuanian no matter how hard I try. any native would immediately know by my facial structure, strong accent and mannerisms that I'm a foreigner, and moving there I'd have to accept being treated as one for the rest of my life. if being "white" isn't enough for me there, I can't imagine how any person of another race entirely from a non-European-derived culture would have a chance at it either.

[Vlerchan]

I see the issue in terms of the following.

1. The nation-state - for a number of reasons - is a good foundation to build good governance upon. Even if it's bounded.
2. In terms of economics: immigration harms no-one in the short- to medium-term. In the long-term they are a net benefit.
3. People would rather live beside and interact with those of a closer social distance. However in the long-term our identities can undergo substantial de-construction and re-construction.
That means a pragmatic approach is going to involve taking in immigrants of a closer social distance and working to assimilate them. This leads to the largest long-run welfare gains. The most important factor to consider is that the number of immigrants that can be absorbed into a nation at once is subject to constraints in terms of political-capital - and Europe the constraint is smaller. This is because of condition 3.: when natives find their locals saturated with other-ed groups backlash ensues.

We can see that at the moment.

In large this is because people are risk-averse. Ethnocentrism is what keeps us interacting with our own group but it's our in-built averseness to risk that ensures that change is stunted. It's important to consider the backlash for multiple reasons. The largest is that immigration doesn't just do a disservice to the future potential-immigrants: it does a disservice to liberalism - full-stop.

Backlash tends to invite radical tendencies*.

On assimilation it's worth considering one point. Let's take the Germans and the Mexican immigrants to the U.S.: the difference here is that the Germans came in a substantial bout whilst the Mexicans arrive in a more-or-less uninterrupted stream. This results in the consistent replenishment and reinforcement of their self-perceived other-ness.

One substantial contribution to this is inter-marriage with first-generation immigrants by second- and third-generation immigrants: producing effectively first-generation children.

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* I will add in closure that the aim is - yes - to uphold liberal-capitalist hegemony above whatever phuckphace has planed. Sorry man.

we had some silly Redditor who found the Donald Trump thread a few weeks back who basically tried to claim that we'd have another Great Depression if it weren't for our foreign serf-class who are forced to work 16 hour days for little pay (the Left has come a long way from Eugene Debs, I gotta say).
This is essentially true - Even if it is inconvenient.

You'd see a significant shortfall in terms of consumption. Given that the fiscal deficit is as it is - and the FED is even more constrained than it was at the onset of the last crisis - it would also be much more difficult to combat.

[phuckphace]

Vlerchan - you propose working to assimilate the immigrants, but there's the problem of ideological opposition to this from the top. if we're referring to Germany, for example, it's the case that native Germans run the risk of being called neo-Nazis even if it's just a little innocent flag-waving and appreciation of some benign civic-nationalist goals. to successfully integrate the arrivals into the native culture, it requires a strong native cultural identity present that can then be adopted, but that is no longer present due to coordinated efforts by their intellectuals and Die Lügenpresse to stamp it out. they want "vibrant diversity", not integration.

the few European immigrants I've encountered IRL (my friend's mom, from Hungary for example) always note the differences in our civic nationalism after arriving here - back home nobody except Jobbik flies the national flag.

[Exocet]

Poor """refugees""" at work.

Coach carrying British schoolchildren is attacked by migrants in Calais who smashed a window by throwing rocks

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3394230/Coach-carrying-British-schoolchildren-attacked-migrants-Calais.html

[Jinglebottom]

^^ I think that's considered normal behavior back in Syria. Just a feeling inside my gut.

[lliam]

The aim here is to have a single thread where we can post all news and discussion relating to immigration and refugees. It's hoped that we can avoid having a half-dozen thread discussing the same issue.

I suppose we need an opening question to get the ball rolling so:

In general, are immigrants a benefit of a cost for the society's they inhabit?


Generally, immigration is always a chance for the benefit of a country's society ... as long as the right people are immigrating.^^

I'd list the classic immigration nations, but I think the best example is Germany with its immigration policy since the 1950s. Curiously German politicians denied over 4 decades, there's any immigration policy. Nevertheless, this immigration policy has been veeery successful.

At a certain level probably a kind of satiation always arises, where folks start to question immigration. Unfortunately, most on the populist level, whatever abets the tendency to develop right-wing populism.

This especially when we discussing immigration in context of the current refugee problem. First of all, in my opinion refugees having nothing in common with immigrants, even if we've to upgrade their status to immigrants someday.


^^ I think that's considered normal behavior back in Syria. Just a feeling inside my gut.

I don't think so. That's just cabin fever which is irrespective of any ethnic background. It comes up when people see no perspectives and aren't meaningfully employed or such.

[Jinglebottom]

I don't think so. That's just cabin fever which is irrespective of any ethnic background. It comes up when people see no perspectives and aren't meaningfully employed or such.
We're still classier, though, of course. *primps* All jokes aside,

Since these people are supposedly looking to start a new life outside of the shit hole once known as Syria, then why are they so insistent on starting trouble? It doesn't make sense. In order to integrate, get a job, and go on from there, you have to get the approval of the people around you (especially when there a ton of negative **stereotypes** surrounding the religion you follow, the region you come from). If you don't, then what's the point in going on such a long, dangerous trip in the first place? They could have easily gone to another nearby Muslim-majority state: Jordan.

They're all brainwashed with Islamic anti-western filth (what do you expect, they hate us) and just came around to fulfill all their violent fetishes on whites. You know, since non-Arabs are only slaves to them. Non-Syrian Arabs, I mean. They're literally exposing themselves with every single barbaric committed, and the internet is documenting it for the whole world to see. Sit back and watch. I have absolutely no remorse for any of them.

[Exocet]

I think we should follow Japan's way of doing about accepting immigrants and so called """refugees""". I've read somewhere that the asylum seekers must pass psychological and health exams first. I've also read that Japan doesn't accept people with diseases or infections. They only accept the best of the best in their country. (If i remember,they only accepted ~10-15 asylum seekers out of thousands...)
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The total opposite of Europe,who's bringing in the lowest of the low.

[Vlerchan]

I'm required to keep this short as I'm abroad.

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phuckphace: Ireland and a number of European states are quite capable of that. I can expand on Ireland's case in particular when I return.

Nonetheless if the perceived Hitlerian connotations are the issue we've a much greater likelihood of succeeding with mine.

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Otherwise it's worth nothing along the same lines of liam: The refugees in Callais have been cooped up in squalid conditions for months in those camps. What we're seeing is frustration. That's not me condoning the behaviour. But casting off the behaviour of a handful of people as typical of those brutes or whatever involves a major sidestep of the realities of human behaviour - and statistics.

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Ireland has also received just 20 applications despite our willingness to take in thousands.

I have a fair idea of what formula for success is but I'm willing to let people guess first.

[phuckphace]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3394230/Coach-carrying-British-schoolchildren-attacked-migrants-Calais.html

I clicked the link, since I know Vlerchan won't (lol at Ghostery blocking 20 trackers on that page) and it sounds like they just bounced a few rocks off the windows. not cool, obviously, but I don't think it's really newsworthy. the main problem is that the migrants are allowed in to begin with and that they're mostly sexually frustrated men in their 20s.

also got no idea why the DM is using an unrelated pic of two semi-trucks loaded with freight. oh well, deport them all anyway.

[Uniquemind]

The aim here is to have a single thread where we can post all news and discussion relating to immigration and refugees. It's hoped that we can avoid having a half-dozen thread discussing the same issue.

I suppose we need an opening question to get the ball rolling so:

In general, are immigrants a benefit of a cost for the society's they inhabit?

In response to the OP, given at this point I've only skimmed what others have posted thus far, depending on if refugees or normal immigration by choice matters.

I think the general label is not what needs vetting.

Rather the context and circumstances and culture from where certain people are from as immigrants should be the determining factor especially in regards to the understanding of mental health and trauma upon behavior.

There's been a lot of bad rap from immigrants recently mainly with the status of refugees.

Questions like : Is this person if we accept them into country going to display "acting out" behaviors due to their experience with mental trauma? Is probably a more discerning question to ask that gets to the root of the problem.

[Exocet]

French official calls on Paris to send troops to Calais over migrants

The head of France's northern region on Monday called on Paris to send troops to Calais to restore order there after migrants stormed the port and boarded a British ferry.

"The migrants, they want to travel to England, they know that you can work without papers in England. They are underpaid. As long as the English don't change the rules, we going to have problems," Bertrand said. "Either the English budge, genuinely and seriously, or we give them back their border." (I also add that UK offers a LOT of welfare apparently...)

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-europe-migrants-calais-idUKKCN0V31PT
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Let them go to Britain,let those brits deal with them. :)

[Vlerchan]

In connection to the comment I made above about little take-up on Ireland I'll mention that Ireland has three times the rate of welfare as the UK has.

That's what makes me sceptical it's welfare on their minds.

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Please also note that in the article Exocet cited it mentioned that one of the things that made the UK so attractive is that it was easier to work in.

That's a hint.

[Exocet]

In connection to the comment I made above about little take-up on Ireland I'll mention that Ireland has three times the rate of welfare as the UK has.

That's what makes me sceptical it's welfare on their minds.

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Please also note that in the article Exocet cited it mentioned that one of the things that made the UK so attractive is that it was easier to work in.

That's a hint.

Do most of them know a country called 'Ireland' exists ? (We want Brrritain,Brrrritain,Gerrrmany,Gerrrmany,Sweeeeden,Sweeeeden).
It's like asking them if they know what Estonia is.
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If some of them know what Ireland is,then it's maybe the distance (And/ or no interest in Ireland basically) that make things harder to them to reach your country. (If we consider they want to reach Ireland,which i hardly doubt.)

[Vlerchan]

Brrritain,Brrrritain,Gerrrmany,Gerrrmany,Sweeeeden,Sweeeeden
I imagine a large part of it is that these countries host large Muslims communities as-is and that's what makes them attractive. But nonetheless Ireland has Islamic communities too and it's not an unpopular destination for economic immigrants.

Ireland has also offered to take in 4000 refugees if such numbers make applications - and those will reside in Ireland whilst their application is processed. It's no matter of getting there.

[Jinglebottom]

Do most of them know a country called 'Ireland' exists ? (We want Brrritain,Brrrritain,Gerrrmany,Gerrrmany,Sweeeeden,Sweeeeden).
It's like asking them if they know what Estonia is.
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If some of them know what Ireland is,then it's maybe the distance (And no interest basically) that make things harder to them to reach your country. (If we consider they want to reach Ireland,which i hardly doubt.)
You do know that the majority of them just think "Fransa! Britania! Allmania!" when they hear the word Europe. :D

[Exocet]

You do know that the majority of them just think "Fransa! Britania! Allmania!" when they hear the word Europe. :D

I've read somewhere that when France went to Germany to pick in some of the """refugees""",many re-fled to Germany. lel
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And i pity them thinking Germany wants to take care of them,help them,make their lives better....
The Germans benefit from that mass immigration as they seek to exploit and recruit slaves from this mass immigration to (partially) lower the wages and because of declining workforce. (cheap labor) Read that some workers need 1 or 2 (Probably +) more works to survive.. :yeah:

[Stronk Serb]

I imagine a large part of it is that these countries host large Muslims communities as-is and that's what makes them attractive. But nonetheless Ireland has Islamic communities too and it's not an unpopular destination for economic immigrants.

Ireland has also offered to take in 4000 refugees if such numbers make applications - and those will reside in Ireland whilst their application is processed. It's no matter of getting there.

Maybe it's a problem to get to Ireland, in Calais they can jump into a truck and they are in England, but Ireland is an island without any underground tunnels. Essentially they will have to build boats once again to pass more treacherous waters, to Ireland which is farther away, considering most of them did strait or island hopping from Turkey to Greece. They can't travel on boats or planes because they don't have passports or IDs, because most of them threw it away.

[Exocet]

Benefits of immigration.
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Swedish asylum worker, 22, is stabbed to death 'in frenzied attack' at a CHILD migrant centre as refugee boy, 15, is arrested for murder

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden-asylum-worker-22-stabbed-death-frenzied-attack-CHILD-migrant-centre-refugee-boy-15-arrested-murder.html

[Human]

99% of the refugees you see on TV are males, I can't see them setting up a family in England really or bringing across much to benefit us, I see them isolating themselves like a lot of minorities already do which will cause problems

[lliam]

The solution is simple: Let them live there, where they are forced to communicate and interact with local peps. Quartering and ghettoisation are death any integration policy. It's our own fault if Calais or worse repeats elsewhere if we doesn't take this into account.

[phuckphace]

the vast majority will. not. integrate. anyway.

anyone seen how ridiculously difficult it is for an American to get EU citizenship? unless you work for a major transnational that will sponsor you and you've got a wall covered with STEM doctorates in your office, you'll get the finger (and even then it will take half a decade or longer). the ultimate irony being that most regular Americans (like me for example) would be able to adapt to the local culture willingly and to the greatest extent possible.

have fun with your thirdworlders I guess. you can take the towelhead out of the desert but you can't take the desert out of the towelhead.

[Exocet]

I was told migrants were a benefit for Europe.
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Swedish police warn Stockholm's main train station is now overrun by migrant teen gangs 'stealing and groping girls'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3415477/Swedish-police-warn-Stockholm-s-main-police-station-overrun-migrant-teen-gangs-stealing-groping-girls.html#ixzz3yOEog5dA

[phuckphace]

this article is a few weeks old but it still gives me hope that Merkel might someday hang

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-politics-idUSKBN0UH08V20160103

Not only is Chancellor Merkel looking more vulnerable than ever before because of her welcoming stance toward the hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing war in the Middle East, but the rise of the anti-immigrant Alternative for Germany (AfD) party has injected a new element of surprise into the political landscape.

Add to that an unprecedented splintering of the electorate, which means that six parties have a legitimate shot of entering most state parliaments, and Germany's normally cozy, consensual politics begins to look a bit less predictable, and potentially more divisive, than it has in a long time.

The wild card is the threat of an attack by Islamist extremists on German soil, a risk highlighted on New Year's Eve when authorities received a tip that Iraqi and Syrian nationals were planning suicide bombings at train stations in Munich.

It could be fatal for Merkel, officials in Berlin acknowledge in private, if such an attack were carried out successfully by people who entered Europe with the flood of migrants, as was the case with two of the men involved in the Nov. 13 attacks in Paris.

[lliam]

the vast majority will. not. integrate. anyway.

anyone seen how ridiculously difficult it is for an American to get EU citizenship?.

That's nothing. A relative of my grandmom is an American citizen. He emigrated about 30 years ago from Germany. When he'd to work again for a about five year period in Germany, he had to pass a language test before they gave him a Arbeittserlaubnis (work permit, I guess). The same was with his wife, who even teaches German as a Prof in the States and actually speaks German without any accent.

[Porpoise101]

Well my weird family is a result of immigration, so I support it as I think it benefits society usually and is a risk worth taking. But this is from a half-Indian half-white redneckish thing who has white stepsiblings and somehow Philipino, Chinese, and black cousins. If my family isn't a product of immigration I don't know what is.

[lliam]

If my family isn't a product of immigration I don't know what is.

One of your family should think about to become US president. The best a female relative.

[Porpoise101]

One of your family should think about to become US president. The best a female relative.
One of my Filipina cousins practices law so maybe [emoji3]

[lliam]

so good luck :D

[Exocet]

Germans are so Nazi... Loooooooooooooooooooooool.
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Germany follows Switzerland and Denmark to seize cash and valuables from arriving 'refugees'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-follows-switzerland-and-denmark-to-seize-cash-and-valuables-from-arriving-refugees-a6828821.html

[Exocet]

Benefits of immigration.
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Swedish asylum worker, 22, is stabbed to death 'in frenzied attack' at a CHILD migrant centre as refugee boy, 15, is arrested for murder

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden-asylum-worker-22-stabbed-death-frenzied-attack-CHILD-migrant-centre-refugee-boy-15-arrested-murder.html

'Who knows what horrors he has been through?' Swedish police chief sparks anger by SYMPATHISING with Somali boy, 15, 'who stabbed refugee worker to death'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3419094/Who-knows-horrors-Police-chief-sparks-anger-sympathising-Somali-boy-stabbed-refugee-worker.html#ixzz3ySWjB9Wj
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No wonder Sweden is becoming (If it hasn't already) an utter trash. Good sinking.

[Porpoise101]

'Who knows what horrors he has been through?' Swedish police chief sparks anger by SYMPATHISING with Somali boy, 15, 'who stabbed refugee worker to death'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3419094/Who-knows-horrors-Police-chief-sparks-anger-sympathising-Somali-boy-stabbed-refugee-worker.html#ixzz3ySWjB9Wj
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No wonder Sweden is becoming (If it hasn't already) an utter trash. Good sinking.
She was Lebanese. So now maybe we should put the immigrants in a ring and make them fight. That would be horrible, yet entertaining spectacle, no?

[Living For Love]

Benefits of immigration.
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Swedish asylum worker, 22, is stabbed to death 'in frenzied attack' at a CHILD migrant centre as refugee boy, 15, is arrested for murder

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden-asylum-worker-22-stabbed-death-frenzied-attack-CHILD-migrant-centre-refugee-boy-15-arrested-murder.html
This was extremely shocking, I refused to believe in it at first but it is indeed true, she was killed at her place of work: a care home for unaccompanied child refugees...

Also, I found this (http://www.euronews.com/2015/09/16/which-european-countries-offer-the-most-social-benefits-to-migrants/) interesting interactive graph that shows refugees' benefits around Europe.

[Exocet]

This was extremely shocking, I refused to believe in it at first but it is indeed true, she was killed at her place of work: a care home for unaccompanied child refugees...

Also, I found this (http://www.euronews.com/2015/09/16/which-european-countries-offer-the-most-social-benefits-to-migrants/) interesting interactive graph that shows refugees' benefits around Europe.

Amazing how some 'thanks' the people that are doing everything they could to help them...
And more worrying,migrants doing crimes in Sweden are more and more young....

[Porpoise101]

This was extremely shocking, I refused to believe in it at first but it is indeed true, she was killed at her place of work: a care home for unaccompanied child refugees...

Also, I found this (http://www.euronews.com/2015/09/16/which-european-countries-offer-the-most-social-benefits-to-migrants/) interesting interactive graph that shows refugees' benefits around Europe.
Interesting map. Why don't refugees have the right to work often initially? It seems strange to me.

[Living For Love]

Why don't refugees have the right to work often initially?
To prevent them from being immediately employed, in order to save the jobs for the native population.

[Vlerchan]

Interesting map. Why don't refugees have the right to work often initially? It seems strange to me.
It stops refugees from getting on with their lives - which is their fundemental aim. In Ireland's case refugees can be held up for 12 - 24 months as their paperwork is processed. We - as a result - get quite a reduced number of applications. It's our secret.

For the curiou: In Ireland the refugees get a hotel room - all their meals - education - medical treatment as required - and a small stipend at the start of each week - whilst their application is being processed:

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It has nothing to do with reserving jobs for natives since immigrants have a non-significant impact on that front.

I have sourced this claim perhaps a dozen times in the last 3 months alone.

[lliam]

Germans are so Nazi... Loooooooooooooooooooooool.
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Germany follows Switzerland and Denmark to seize cash and valuables from arriving 'refugees'


Well, among us Europeans ... we all know not everyone has as much money as France. We others are just somewhat ... lets say ... more efficient and enterprising.

[Exocet]

Well, among us Europeans ... we all know not everyone has as much money as France. We others are just somewhat ... lets say ... more efficient and enterprising.

Denmark,Switzerland and Germany are very rich,they are in good economic situations. While France has a slow growing economy and a debt of more than €2 Trillion. We have no money,whereas Germany isn't lacking money. Can't understand why you're asking those poor refugees to pay.

[Porpoise101]

Can't understand why you're asking those poor refugees to pay.
Are you being sarcastic here? I never thought I'd ever hear you say "poor refugees".

Anyways, it makes sense to do that for things except for heirlooms because it controls what they have, can receive, and allows the government a way to not lose as much money in this situation.

[sqishy]

Putting this in here, what would happen if there were to be another 'economic crash' of similar or worse magnitude to the 2007-08 one, in Europe, with this ongoing?

(I partly say this because I've been hearing vague but recurring ideas from people that another crash is imminent.
I'm not suggesting that the influx of people is causing this, at all.)

[Exocet]

Are you being sarcastic here? I never thought I'd ever hear you say "poor refugees".

Anyways, it makes sense to do that for things except for heirlooms because it controls what they have, can receive, and allows the government a way to not lose as much money in this situation.

Of course not.

It is a shame that Nazi Germany is asking those poor people to pay when they have hundred of billions in reserves and surplus each year.

[lliam]

We have no money,whereas Germany isn't lacking money.

Uhm, maybe my post wasn't ironically enough poisoned.



Can't understand why you're asking those poor refugees to pay.

That's the law from the 1990s. Also, couldn't understand it too ... and even didn't know. So I googled it ...

As far as I understand it, this law has been adopted from social services for German beneficiaries during the 1990s.

This means that if a German, or a European citizen in Germany, wants to benefit from social services, and he has assets beyond the basic amount he is entitled to, he first has to use up that amount of his capital, before he can receive any social benefits.

As for this, refugees become paupers in Germany. So, the reasons are about social equality and such. Means refugees are equal to Gernan recipients of public welfare.

[Exocet]

Just how old do you think these migrant 'children' are? Alarming pictures of refugees - including 'the fastest 14-year-old in Sweden' - that shed light on a growing scandal amid Europe's asylum crisis


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3422000/Just-old-think-migrant-children-Alarming-pictures-shed-light-growing-scandal-amid-asylum-crisis.html#ixzz3ycufkmn0
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LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL,we are such a bunch of sissies. We deserve to be invaded,raped and burkanised.

[Jinglebottom]

Just how old do you think these migrant 'children' are? Alarming pictures of refugees - including 'the fastest 14-year-old in Sweden' - that shed light on a growing scandal amid Europe's asylum crisis


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3422000/Just-old-think-migrant-children-Alarming-pictures-shed-light-growing-scandal-amid-asylum-crisis.html#ixzz3ycufkmn0
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LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL,we are such a bunch of sissies. We deserve to be invaded,raped and burkanised.
How dare you!!! Muslim refugees have a 100% rate of precocious puberty you bigot!!!

[phuckphace]

Putting this in here, what would happen if there were to be another 'economic crash' of similar or worse magnitude to the 2007-08 one, in Europe, with this ongoing?

(I partly say this because I've been hearing vague but recurring ideas from people that another crash is imminent.
I'm not suggesting that the influx of people is causing this, at all.)

economists: wouldn't have happened if we'd just let in 100 million more

[Living For Love]

[...] burkanised.
"Burkanised", that does sound interesting... :D

[Jinglebottom]

"Burkanised", that does sound interesting... :D
http://i.imgur.com/sGNQLem.jpg

By the way, aren't burqas outlawed in some European states (France I think?)

[Exocet]

image (http://i.imgur.com/sGNQLem.jpg)

By the way, aren't burqas outlawed in some European states (France I think?)

They are. When the law was adopted,Jihad funboys across Europe wanted crusades on France.

London : (YES !)

http://i.imgur.com/jQsCpa7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aviutL7.jpg

[sqishy]

economists: wouldn't have happened if we'd just let in 100 million more

Not sure what you mean here.

[Jinglebottom]

They are. When the law was adopted,Jihad funboys across Europe wanted crusades on France.

London : (YES !)
I never saw Christians starting a revolt when the Wahhabi Saudi Arabian government prohibited the possession of Bibles and crosses. Ah wait, they'd be beheaded on the spot, that's the reason why. And that doesn't look like London, more like Londonistan lolol.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that you can expect the rate of those demonstrations to parallel with the amount of refugees you allow in.

[Exocet]

I never saw Christians starting a revolt when the Wahhabi Saudi Arabian government prohibited the possession of Bibles and crosses. Ah wait, they'd be beheaded on the spot, that's the reason why. And that doesn't look like London, more like Londonistan lolol.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that you can expect the rate of those demonstrations to parallel with the amount of refugees you allow in.

They fled war....... they are traumatised............
So they have the right to kill,rape,go on crusades against us,i forgive them.

[Exocet]

xbob18 Stronk Serb lliam Paraxiom phuckphace Vlerchan

The truth about Merkel in a single video. You can tell otherwise,there's only one message!!!

_Rcc7xgD2dM

[Jinglebottom]

xbob18 Stronk Serb lliam Paraxiom phuckphace Vlerchan

The truth about Merkel in a single video. You can tell otherwise,there's only one message!!!

_Rcc7xgD2dM
Don't be silly Exocet, the flag's color scheme just didn't match with her outfit!

It does seem like she wants the best for the future of Germany... not. I thought the person representing a country was supposed to love said country. But this me being naive (especially considering I come from a country where the only thing politicians care about, is stuffing it ($) in their pockets, but isn't that the case in every single sovereign state?).

She'll only touch that flag once it has a crescent and a star inserted right in the middle, thankfully I've already done the depiction of the Islam-ized Germany flag for my own enjoyment, so I saved her some work. ^^

[lliam]

I thought the person representing a country was supposed to love said country. But this me being naive.

yeah ... very naive thinkig. Also Big Momma Merkel is tired ... tired to be always reelected as German Chancellor. So, who wonders that she's still disgusted from having to touch the German flag all the time?



thankfully I've already done the depiction of the Islam-ized Germany flag for my own enjoyment, so I saved her some work. ^^

too late mate. In a few decades, a Turkish Muslim half of Kurdish origin will be Chancellor of Germany. And she will declare this flag as the official flag of Germany:

http://emajmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/dear-mannschaft-geotypograpika-com.jpg


http://www.dw.com/image/0,,1221407_4,00.jpg


And then Turkey will be the newest federal state of Germany and Germany will be renamed to Germturkistan.


Also Momma Merkel appeared in the news as Germuslima:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/uploads/2015/10/151005_ard_bericht_aus_berlin_merkel_burka_1.jpg

[Exocet]

yeah ... very naive thinkig. Also Big Momma Merkel is tired ... tired to be always reelected as German Chancellor. So, who wonders that she's still disgusted from having to touch the German flag all the time?





too late mate. In a few decades, a Turkish Muslim half of Kurdish origin will be Chancellor of Germany. And she will declare this flag as the official flag of Germany:

image (http://emajmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/dear-mannschaft-geotypograpika-com.jpg)


image (http://www.dw.com/image/0,,1221407_4,00.jpg)


And then Turkey will be the newest federal state of Germany and Germany will be renamed to Germturkistan.


Also Momma Merkel appeared in the news as Germuslima:

image (http://www.frontpagemag.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/uploads/2015/10/151005_ard_bericht_aus_berlin_merkel_burka_1.jpg)

Oy vey Goyim,that is very heartwarming.

[Judean Zealot]

Oy vey Goyim,that is very heartwarming.

Isn't it? I just can't wait to have a whole new continent of enemies to kill.

[Exocet]

Future teachers and doctors at work.
-
Police flee for their lives at Swedish migrant camp after they are surrounded by screaming mob as they try to relocate ten-year-old boy ‘who had been raped multiple times’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3417669/Police-flee-lives-Swedish-migrant-camp-surrounded-screaming-mob-try-relocate-ten-year-old-boy-raped-multiple-times.html#ixzz3yoMO79Bf

[Jinglebottom]

Future teachers and doctors at work.
-
Police flee for their lives at Swedish migrant camp after they are surrounded by screaming mob as they try to relocate ten-year-old boy ‘who had been raped multiple times’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3417669/Police-flee-lives-Swedish-migrant-camp-surrounded-screaming-mob-try-relocate-ten-year-old-boy-raped-multiple-times.html#ixzz3yoMO79Bf
I'm almost worried for my relatives living in Sweden. They look European-ish (blond hair and all) which automatically makes them a target for those ruthless criminals.

Oh goody, seems like they've started murdering Arabs, too. (https://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebanon-News/2016/Jan-30/334805-south-lebanon-town-mourns-woman-slain-in-sweden.ashx) What's left for the Euros?

[Sailor Mars]

Ya know, as much as I'm up for getting the legit fucked up families out of there and into safer countries, these stories and shit just make it so difficult

[Exocet]

I'm almost worried for my relatives living in Sweden. They look European-ish (blond hair and all) which automatically makes them a target for those ruthless criminals.

Oh goody, seems like they've started murdering Arabs, too. (https://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebanon-News/2016/Jan-30/334805-south-lebanon-town-mourns-woman-slain-in-sweden.ashx) What's left for the Euros?

Apparently,the girl worker in the child refugee centre who was stabbed to death by a somali """"""refugee child"""""" was originally from Lebanon. I thought she was Swedish or European. When they'll start to kill us (if they haven't already) they won't ask you if you're European or not,just look European enough and you'll be a target.

[sqishy]

The truth about Merkel in a single video. You can tell otherwise,there's only one message!!!

_Rcc7xgD2dM

I never had a positive opinion on Merkel; that aside, looks like she's shrugging off the idea of waving that German flag around. Perhaps she's more for the EU than Germany, but I don't know or care much actually.

[Vlerchan]

Whilst I accept the shame coming with being the author of probably the trashiest thread of VT history, I'm glad this is all in the same place.

Putting this in here, what would happen if there were to be another 'economic crash' of similar or worse magnitude to the 2007-08 one, in Europe, with this ongoing?
First off is that the likelihood of having a economic downturn of the magnitude of 08-09 is incredibly slim.

Nonetheless the last downturn led to heightened nativist rhetoric across most northern European states - and heightened leftist rhetoric across souther European states. This persists given that continental European economies are running well below potential - Though potential doesn't look to good either. Odds are it will be an exasperation.

Through I'm open the opinion that support for perceived nativists has an upper-bound of perhaps 30%. You have significant numbers in each of the northern European states that report an unwillingness to ever vote far-right.

[sqishy]

Whilst I accept the shame coming with being the author of probably the trashiest thread of VT history, I'm glad it's all in the same place.


No need to accept shame - it is not you who is fueling the fire.

[Jinglebottom]

Whilst I accept the shame coming with being the author of probably the trashiest thread of VT history, I'm glad this is all in the same place.
My gut tells me I'm [-]fully[/-] partly responsible for this (duh)... I'll try to cut down on the anti-refugee sentiment. :c

[Vlerchan]

I'll try to cut down on the anti-refugee sentiment. :c
That's no issue. That's fine and I'm sure a number of users appreciate the insight of someone living amongst high densities of them.

The comment was being made more towards the agenda-driven generalisations built on the poorest sourcing. It's not conductive to any sort of intelligent debate which is the reason the thread descended into the likes of "fuck refugees hurr durr" etc.:

If I might suggest themes the debate should surround the likes of:

Economic impacts of the crisis on Europe. Measures that might minimise costs.
Social impacts of the crisis on Europe. Measures that might minimise costs and various penalties.
Problems of incentive. Measures that would keep the right sort of migrants arriving.
Long-term solutions to the crisis.
Or something. This should be framed in the backdrop that the population of the african continent is going to more than double inside our lifetimes the likelihood is that climate change will have a disproportionate impact on that continent.

From this crisis we should be building contingencies to deal with that.

[Exocet]

My gut tells me I'm [-]fully[/-] partly responsible for this (duh)... I'll try to cut down on the anti-refugee sentiment. :c

I felt targeted by his post.

[lliam]

[OFFTOPIC]

Whilst I accept the shame coming with being the author of probably the trashiest thread of VT history, I'm glad this is all in the same place.


I'm ashamed I read that. Be proud to be the OP of this thread instead.
IMO, you should be nominated as OP of the Year.


[/ODDTOPIC]

[phuckphace]

out of respect for OP I'll at least attempt to keep my rhetoric as toned-down as possible ITT, mainly by avoiding any DailyMail articles.

the main points that I've flogged over and over are these:

1.) the Third World is a dump because it is populated by Third-Worlders. any location on the Earth's surface to which Third Worlders are moved will become a dump also - there's no magic in Europe's geography that can override basic human nature and tendencies.

2.) the crisis was artificial in the sense that no European government "had" to let in even a single refugee, legitimate or otherwise, therefore the blame rests squarely with government elites and their conscious decision to allow them from Day 1.

3.) nationalist or so-called "nativist" reactions to the crisis are to be expected and will likely be proportionate to the scope of the crisis - that's to say, the more of the dusky downtrodden begin appearing in formerly quiet communities and disrupting the Ordnung, the more the native populace will shift to the right. multiculturalism polarizes politics and disrupts national unity, as I've been saying this whole time, and this is Exhibit A for that point.

I didn't need to read a single tabloid article to arrive at these conclusions and neither do you. it's what I like to call common sense, really.

[Porpoise101]

2.) the crisis was artificial in the sense that no European government "had" to let in even a single refugee, legitimate or otherwise, therefore the blame rests squarely with government elites and their conscious decision to allow them from Day 1.
International law maybe?

[Judean Zealot]

Vlerchan

You should've prefaced your post with a trigger warning. :D

[phuckphace]

crawling in my skin, these wounds they will not heeeeaal

...we need a safespace for rightists. these triggers are getting really fucking problematic

[Exocet]

Lol.
-
'No means no': Norway sends migrants on anti-rape courses


http://news.yahoo.com/no-means-no-norway-sends-migrants-anti-rape-212933003.html

[Exocet]

The future of Europe is going to be interesting. And by interesting i mean extremly violent.
-
Shocking footage claims to show a group of migrant men 'attacking two pensioners who stood up for a woman they were harassing on the Munich subway'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3426947/Shocking-footage-claims-group-migrant-men-attacking-two-pensioners-stood-woman-harassing-Munich-subway.html#ixzz3yxqbyau3

[Vlerchan]

the Third World is a dump because it is populated by Third-Worlders.
Please outline the relevant mechanism. Thank you.

---

I also feel like I've been out flogging my response to this before.

[...] the crisis was artificial in the sense that no European government "had" to let in even a single refugee [...]
When people use the term 'refugee crisis' they're referring to the impact of various conflicts on the refugees.

This was not artificial in the same sense being proposed.

We could choose to ignore it - difficult as that might be - but we didn't.

'No means no': Norway sends migrants on anti-rape courses
There's a significant number in Ireland who can't define the characteristics of the legal definition of rape in Ireland - which is quite standard.

I don't see a problem with this regardless and from the looks of it migrants are eager to learn - I don't see what it is that makes this amusing.

---

Edit:

I decided to devise this little test. Some of these refers to acts of rape - and some don't.

I will be using the definition and relevant case-law common to both Ireland and the U.K.: this isn't uncommon across other developed states. I will be using the prefix "if a woman..." because that's the norm across most jurisdictions.

If there is no force involved - is it rape?
If a woman takes a number of weeks or months to report - is it rape?
If a woman remains with an intimate partner after an act of non-consensual sex - has it been rape?
If a woman's husband uses violence to extract sex - is this a rape?
If a woman's husband threatens her to extract sex and she makes no effort to struggle - is this rape?
If a woman requests that her husband stop a penetrative act during the course of thus-far consensual sexual intercourse and he continues - is this rape?
If a woman believes she is having sex with someone else and the impersonator is aware of this presumption - is that rape?
If a woman believes she is having sex with someone else and the impersonator is not aware of this presumption - is that rape?
If a woman believes she will be paid for the act and the man refuses to pay on completion - is that rape?
If a woman engages in sexual intercourse with one who was deceitful about their true sex - is that rape?
If a woman has previously engaged in sexual intercourse and he precedes to extract sex a second time through threat - is this rape?
If the above occurs and the woman refuses but makes no attempt to struggle - is this rape?
If a woman flirts excessively with a man and then continues home with him but refuses sex - which he precedes to extract - is that rape?
If the above occurs but the woman submitted the act - is that rape?
If a woman believes that she is engaging in a non-sexual act [eg: a massage] and consents to this act - is this rape?
If a woman is quite drunk and a man is aware of this and continues to have sex with her - is that rape?
If a woman If a woman is quite drunk and her husband is aware of this and continues to have sex with her - is that rape?
In any of these situations can it be considered a greater or less act of rape?

---

This also for certain should have it's own thread but I'm hoping it will just be a small diversion in this one.

[Porpoise101]

I decided to devise this little test. Some of these refers to acts of rape - and some don't.

I will be using the definition and relevant case-law common to both Ireland and the U.K.: this isn't uncommon across other developed states. I will be using the prefix "if a woman..." because that's the norm across most jurisdictions.


If there is no force involved - is it rape?
If a woman takes a number of weeks or months to report - is it rape?
If a woman remains with an intimate partner after an act of non-consensual sex - has it been rape?
If a woman's husband uses violence to extract sex - is this a rape?
If a woman's husband threatens her to extract sex and she makes no effort to struggle - is this rape?
If a woman requests that her husband stop a penetrative act during the course of thus-far consensual sexual intercourse and he continues - is this rape?
If a woman believes she is having sex with someone else and the impersonator is aware of this presumption - is that rape?
If a woman believes she is having sex with someone else and the impersonator is not aware of this presumption - is that rape?
If a woman believes she will be paid for the act and the man refuses to pay on completion - is that rape?
If a woman engages in sexual intercourse with one who was deceitful about their true sex - is that rape?
If a woman has previously engaged in sexual intercourse and he precedes to extract sex a second time through threat - is this rape?
If the above occurs and the woman refuses but makes no attempt to struggle - is this rape?
If a woman flirts excessively with a man and then continues home with him but refuses sex - which he precedes to extract - is that rape?
If the above occurs but the woman submitted the act - is that rape?
If a woman believes that she is engaging in a non-sexual act [eg: a massage] and consents to this act - is this rape?
If a woman is quite drunk and a man is aware of this and continues to have sex with her - is that rape?
If a woman If a woman is quite drunk and her husband is aware of this and continues to have sex with her - is that rape?

In any of these situations can it be considered a greater or less act of rape?

The case with the prostitute should be considered lesser as to me it isn't rape, but instead theft. Cases where the rapist is actively repelled should be more severely punished because it is a greater violation.

[Judean Zealot]

Vlerchan:

Wasn't there a recent case in the UK where they sent a woman who identified as a man to jail for pretending she was a man?

Feminists vs trans activists, bring out the popcorn. :D

[Vlerchan]

The case with the prostitute should be considered lesser as to me it isn't rape, but instead theft.
It was held as not being rape in R v Linekar [1995]. It was held that there was no fraud-induced intent as to the nature of the activity.

I'm not sure whether it was held up that it was theft or not.

Cases where the rapist is actively repelled should be more severely punished because it is a greater violation.
Held against in R v Olugboja [1982]. In terms of the rape charge force hasn't been relevant since the mid-1800s (Camplin [1845]; Fletcher [1859).

The courts are quite reluctant to impose ideas of a 'right' or 'wrong' reaction on rape victims - amongst other reasons.

Wasn't there a recent case in the UK where they sent a woman who identified as a man to jail for pretending she was a man?
Yep. Though it's worth noting she was convicted of just sexual assault - though on a number of counts. That's because under English law woman can't be convicted of rape - (under Irish law she would have been convicted of rape under s. 4 which is a parallel offence).

This also has grounds in R v McNally [2013] which surrounded similar circumstances. McNally was also convicted of sexual assault.

---

The more recent case also didn't surround a trans as far as I can determine.

[Porpoise101]

It was held as not being rape in R v Linekar [1995]. It was held that there was no fraud-induced intent as to the nature of the activity.

I'm not sure whether it was held up that it was theft or not.
That's the word. Fraud to me seems better fitting because the woman was cheated out of her money.

[Exocet]

Migrants sexually harass German School Girls - Mayor dismisses Grandfather: "Don't provoke them"


XdSsJQ-fvOU

[sqishy]

Migrants sexually harass German School Girls - Mayor dismisses Grandfather: "Don't provoke them"


XdSsJQ-fvOU

I'm not sure if you're trying to fuel a fire, or bringing in new examples of situations which we already know you use for your viewpoint.

[Exocet]

I'm not sure if you're trying to fuel a fire, or bringing in new examples of situations which we already know you use for your viewpoint.


Sorry for showing you the diversity our elites are bringing in Europe.
Sorry for showing you the behavior of the future doctors and teachers.
-
I am also sorry for the German girls (And European in general) who will go to school with the fear of being sexually harrassed or raped by the hordes of men Merkel is bringing into their once beautiful country. (Cologne was just the begining.)
And sad that the feminized European men are nowhere to protect their women.

[sqishy]

Sorry for showing you the diversity our elites are bringing in Europe.

The apologetic rhetoric isn't necessary, I feel. Are you referring to the 'diversity' euphemistically?


Sorry for showing you the behavior of the future doctors and teachers.


This behaviour being specifically what? I am not saying there isn't any. I want to know what you're defining/seeing it as.



I am also sorry for the German girls (And European in general) who will go to school with the fear of being sexually harrassed or raped by the hordes of men[...]


A big generalisation to say that rape, sexual harassment and so on are only conducted by males on female victims.

[...]Merkel is bringing into their once beautiful country. (Cologne was just the begining.)


I'm not rejecting the possibility of other events similar to Cologne at all, but you're referring to the beginning as being past-tense, so you mean that other similar events have since happened. For reason of informing me, I'd like to know those events.


And sad that the feminized European men are nowhere to protect their women.

If you're equating (misplaced, I already think) feminisation with weakness, you've got double standards and stereotypes going on with gender already.

[Syzygy]

[COLOR="Yellow"]If you're equating (misplaced, I already think) feminisation with weakness, you've got double standards and stereotypes going on with gender already.

come on man, you can't be saying feminization of men doesn't have negative effects on a society. feminized men who sit down to pee and whose bodies are wracked with pthalates aren't going to stand up for "their" women.

[Porpoise101]

come on man, you can't be saying feminization of men doesn't have negative effects on a society. Why not? What are the consequences? I'm just wondering.

[sqishy]

come on man, you can't be saying feminization of men doesn't have negative effects on a society. feminized men who sit down to pee and whose bodies are wracked with pthalates aren't going to stand up for "their" women.

Even by suspending my reactions to this, I'm seriously wondering why you think you can say the above, and see it as making sense.
You're blaming gender for rape.

[West Coast Sheriff]

Migrants sexually harass German School Girls - Mayor dismisses Grandfather: "Don't provoke them"


XdSsJQ-fvOU

The sexual assaults have really increased in Europe. Until proper screening can be done, "refugee" immigration must be postponed. In America, we have jihadists waiting to attack. If one were to pose as a refugee, it wouldn't turn out well. In terms of security, I think less refugees should be taken in.

[Porpoise101]

The sexual assaults have really increased in Europe. Until proper screening can be done, "refugee" immigration must be postponed. In America, we have jihadists waiting to attack. If one were to pose as a refugee, it wouldn't turn out well. In terms of security, I think less refugees should be taken in.

Unlike Europe we don't let them wash into impoverished Balkan nations and THEN screen them. We actually have a fairly stringent vetting process. Us Americans and Europeans are pretty good at screwing over the Turks and Lebanese who are actually take in the brunt of the population. Seriously, they deserve something for doing this. On the other hand the Gulf States need to sign the UN refugee charter, so they will be compelled to take in some of them.

[West Coast Sheriff]

Unlike Europe we don't let them wash into impoverished Balkan nations and THEN screen them. We actually have a fairly stringent vetting process. Us Americans and Europeans are pretty good at screwing over the Turks and Lebanese who are actually take in the brunt of the population. Seriously, they deserve something for doing this. On the other hand the Gulf States need to sign the UN refugee charter, so they will be compelled to take in some of them.

Sounds reasonable. I haven't looked to much into those situations so I can't really testify.

[Syzygy]

Why not? What are the consequences? I'm just wondering.

Being too afraid to stand up for your culture and people


Even by suspending my reactions to this, I'm seriously wondering why you think you can say the above, and see it as making sense.
You're blaming gender for rape.

You're right I should have worded that differently, I made it sound like you shouldn't be able to say your opinion (which I don't believe). So my bad.

Femininity isn't bad (or responsible for rape), masculinity isn't either. a balance is preferable. "castrating" your men is not good for a nation.

[tovaris]

Reply to:

/.../


Is it in EUs interest to force the Visegrad Group (http://www.visegradgroup.eu/) to harbour refugees, even when the refugees dont want to live in fuckin poland?
/.../






/.../
It's in the interest of the Union to share the burden of the refugee crisis across the member states. This stops tensions from being concentrated.
/.../


They joined before the refugee crisis they are not bound to take them.

[Vlerchan]

They joined before the refugee crisis they are not bound to take them.
I don't understand your point. Would you mind rephrasing. Thank you.

Joining before the onset of the crisis does not exempt someone. The EU had a vote on the issue - Even if some states ignored it.

[tovaris]

I don't understand your point. Would you mind rephrasing. Thank you.

Joining before the onset of the crisis does not exempt someone. The EU had a vote on the issue - Even if some states ignored it.

This referes to your "UK joiked before the € they dont have to conply" argument. If that aplies so does this. Vidhegrad voted no it did not pass the council actuly but the comission wants to force this redistribution dow peoples throats. They dont want to go to poland they want to go to germany let them.

[Vlerchan]

This referes to your "UK joiked before the € they dont have to conply" argument.
Literally the law. This isn't a moral argument.

If that aplies so does this.
No. Those states signed up to a certain voting mechanism and that voting mechanism was used and those states lost.

Literally the law too.

[...] they want to go to germany let them.
I'm not sure why you think we should grant unassailable weight to the opinions of refugees.

[tovaris]

Literally the law. This isn't a moral argument.

.

€ is also the law.




No. Those states signed up to a certain voting mechanism and that voting mechanism was used and those states lost.

Literally the law too.
.

How does the EU work we ask? Whell there is the EU parlament which represents the EU people and has no power. There is the Eau council wich represents the countries frew the goverments, limited power in the sense if countries agree to signe sometjing that is binding. And last EU comission the leest democratoc body with all the power (plagued by scandals).

Who came up with th reditribution thing? The comission. Did it pass the council the parlament? No, Vishegrad and Iberia would never ay yes, and thats to many votes to outvote by germny and subordinate tribes


/.../


I'm not sure why you think we should grant unassailable weight to the opinions of refugees.

Because humanitarian and stuf, if you dont want tkžhem send them back why should countries not involved suffer?
(You as in germany)

[sqishy]

You're right I should have worded that differently, I made it sound like you shouldn't be able to say your opinion (which I don't believe). So my bad.

Alright.

[...]"castrating" your men is not good for a nation.


Do you mean castration literally, or metaphorically?

For either, why do you think that less of stereotypical masculinity, or less of a presence of male hormones, makes a nation/society worse?

[Vlerchan]

€ is also the law.
Please quote the relevant legislations as it applies to the UK. Thank you.

Whell there is the EU parlament which represents the EU people and has no power.
Let's go through the powers of the European parliament:
It can veto initiatives that are commenced through the ordinary legislative procedure. This is most initiatives.
It appoints the commission - the commission president - and the Ombudsman.
It can vote to dismiss the entire commission and the Ombudsman.
It can veto the budget.
Nonetheless the refugee vote was conducted entirely through the European Council so this is irrelevant.

There is the Eau council wich represents the countries frew the goverments, limited power in the sense if countries agree to signe sometjing that is binding.
The European Council is the most powerful of three three institutions you've outlined.

And last EU comission the leest democratoc body with all the power (plagued by scandals).
No. The commission has agenda-setting powers. That's where most of it's power rests.

The European Council choose the president of the Commission - and the European Parliament affirms the President - and the the President - with the aid of the national governments - selects the various commissioners. The last time this took place national parliaments had one prospective commissioner from Latvia I believe booted - and the Hungarian commissioner removed from the Justice portfolio. It's indirectly elected.

Did it pass the council the parlament? No, Vishegrad and Iberia would never ay yes, and thats to many votes to outvote by germny and subordinate tribes
EU interior ministers have approved a controversial plan to relocate 120,000 migrants across the continent over the next two years.

It will see migrants moved from Italy, Greece and Hungary to other EU countries.
Romania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary voted against accepting mandatory quotas.

After the vote, Slovakia's prime minister said he would not accept the new quotas.
Finland abstained from the vote. Poland, which had opposed the proposal, voted for it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34329825

You're wrong.

Because humanitarian and stuf, if you dont want tkžhem send them back why should countries not involved suffer?
Other states are implicated by-way of the supremacy of European Union law.

[tovaris]

Please quote the relevant legislations as it applies to the UK. Thank you.


Let's go through the powers of the European parliament:

It can veto initiatives that are commenced through the ordinary legislative procedure. This is most initiatives.
It appoints the commission - the commission president - and the Ombudsman.
It can vote to dismiss the entire commission and the Ombudsman.
It can veto the budget.

Nonetheless the refugee vote was conducted entirely through the European Council so this is irrelevant.


The European Council is the most powerful of three three institutions you've outlined.


No. The commission has agenda-setting powers. That's where most of it's power rests.

The European Council choose the president of the Commission - and the European Parliament affirms the President - and the the President - with the aid of the national governments - selects the various commissioners. The last time this took place national parliaments had one prospective commissioner from Latvia I believe booted - and the Hungarian commissioner removed from the Justice portfolio. It's indirectly elected.EU interior ministers have approved a controversial plan to relocate 120,000 migrants across the continent over the next two years.

It will see migrants moved from Italy, Greece and Hungary to other EU countries.
Romania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary voted against accepting mandatory quotas.

After the vote, Slovakia's prime minister said he would not accept the new quotas.
Finland abstained from the vote. Poland, which had opposed the proposal, voted for it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34329825You're wrong.


Other states are implicated by-way of the supremacy of European Union law.

I will reply to tjis in the space intended in due time (when o fir uf the conputer). I also beloeve i alredy lžrelocated the UK discusion somewhere.
In th mean tim i willask you to actuly reply to the topic at hand ratjer than always maneging to fractale the conversation and get it off topic at the same time. Do check out other quotes of you for im sure an adress has alredy been made. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2025093)

Vlerchan
Now back to the refugees. EU internal ministers are Today deciding what to do with the extra refugees. The redistribution idea was the Comissions idea which was protested to by Vishegrad.

Nontheles the EU comission CANNOT force EU nations to swalow whatever it comes up with.

Besides refugees when asked if "they would stay in Sloveina" say they would rather kill themselves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JLk7TBntXo). So let them go to germany, they wanted them they should take them. If the Deutch are incapable of handeling it they can simply exile the extra refugees back to grece or some other place.

[Syzygy]

Alright.




Do you mean castration literally, or metaphorically?

For either, why do you think that less of stereotypical masculinity, or less of a presence of male hormones, makes a nation/society worse?

Honestly both. chemicals being added to household items and sprayed over food can act as endocrine disruptors which can interfere with people's hormones. nonylphenol and bpa to name a few. chances are you've probably been exposed to chemicals like these numerous times. A lot of them (usually pesticides) are banned but still can be prevalent and contaminating humans. This is bad obviously because it interferes with proper development and can cause multiple health problems.

And of course in the west now there is less of a macho culture, kids being raised differently, different role models in the media and other similar things. Removing masculinity makes a society weaker, it's like removing half of the yin yang. a basic example is that feminized societies would (in theory) place less importance in decision making on logic and more on emotion. you shouldn't make a decision based just on one of those things. an overly emotional society is chaotic and frantic, an overly logical society is cold and callous.

[Exocet]

Unlike Europe we don't let them wash into impoverished Balkan nations and THEN screen them. We actually have a fairly stringent vetting process. Us Americans and Europeans are pretty good at screwing over the Turks and Lebanese who are actually take in the brunt of the population. Seriously, they deserve something for doing this. On the other hand the Gulf States need to sign the UN refugee charter, so they will be compelled to take in some of them.

US and UK should both share the burden. You both fucked up the entire middle east.(Which,BTW,wasn't even an heaven before.)

[Jinglebottom]

US and UK should both share the burden. You both fucked up the entire middle east.(Which,BTW,wasn't even an heaven before.)
Don't worry, it was fucked up long before the Syrian Civil War was even a thought. :D

[Chapperz16]

Whilst the East has never been perfect, nor has the West. Our intervention and desire to install our values on the Middle East has I would say influenced Middle Eastern in making it a dangerous place. This opinion can also be applied to the EU and its movements towards Eastern Europe.

[Vlerchan]

I will reply to tjis in the space intended in due time (when o fir uf the conputer). I also beloeve i alredy lžrelocated the UK discusion somewhere.
In th mean tim i willask you to actuly reply to the topic at hand ratjer than always maneging to fractale the conversation and get it off topic at the same time. Do check out other quotes of you for im sure an adress has alredy been made.
You can split it if you want. Though I was responding to points you made. If you have an issue with the direction those points take the conversation then drop them.

EU internal ministers are Today deciding what to do with the extra refugees. The redistribution idea was the Comissions idea which was protested to by Vishegrad.
The European Council decided on the quotas. I sourced this in my last post. You can read the article there.

I don't care if someone in the Commission came up with the idea. That's entirely irrelevant to the institutional processes I'm discussing.

Nontheles the EU comission CANNOT force EU nations to swalow whatever it comes up with.
The Vishegrad states signed up to a certain institutional mechanism. That institutional mechanism produced a decision that amended European Union law.

European Union law has supremacy over national law. This has both precedent in the case law (starting with Van Gend en Loos [1963]) and the Treaties.

So it does have the right.

So let them go to germany, they wanted them they should take them. If the Deutch are incapable of handeling it they can simply exile the extra refugees back to grece or some other place.
The Germans voted in favour of the quotas because it can't absorb all the refugees.

It was also possible for the Germans to vote because this was decided upon in the European Council.

---

Removing masculinity makes a society weaker[.]
Would you mind supporting this claim with reference to quantifiable falls in our standard of living. Thank you.

[sqishy]

Honestly both. chemicals being added to household items and sprayed over food can act as endocrine disruptors which can interfere with people's hormones. nonylphenol and bpa to name a few. chances are you've probably been exposed to chemicals like these numerous times. A lot of them (usually pesticides) are banned but still can be prevalent and contaminating humans. This is bad obviously because it interferes with proper development and can cause multiple health problems.


I'm aware of the 'background but artificial' presence of anti-androgens, yes.

How much they affect males, however, is yet to be seen. It's probably much less in effect than the intended taking of an anti-androgen drug, because we're not seeing any noticeable physiological reduction of secondary male characteristics in people, as far as I know anyhow.



And of course in the west now there is less of a macho culture[...]


Personally I'm glad of the reduction in the whole gender stereotype culture. The expectation of males to be seen as something like sturdy brick walls, really isn't doing any favours for the expression of their emotions. This persists today - you'd be frowned upon if you got upset in a public place, yet for females it's seen as much more of a natural thing. I gladly throw away this steel facade, if it's to better my mental wellbeing.

Removing masculinity makes a society weaker, it's like removing half of the yin yang. a basic example is that feminized societies would (in theory) place less importance in decision making on logic and more on emotion. you shouldn't make a decision based just on one of those things. an overly emotional society is chaotic and frantic, an overly logical society is cold and callous.

Though I know all about coherence in the overall metaphorical and symbolic characteristics of the feminine/yin/etc being that of reflection and emotion, it by no means should be used as something to be seen in everyday situations at all. Males and females experience about the same level of emotion, and think rationally about the same as well. Though there are certainly differences, it's not to the level that you speak of. Large-scale philosophical angles are relatively subtle and should not be translated into hard brute facts of everyday life - there is a big difference.

For another example, we don't worry about getting overly emotional after drinking too much water. This is because that though water is seen by many classical element systems to be an element of emotion and impulse, it doesn't carry into immediate chemical behaviour. It would be like worrying that seeing to much fire will make me have anger issues. Hope I have explained this point enough.

[Syzygy]

I'm aware of the 'background but artificial' presence of anti-androgens, yes.

How much they affect males, however, is yet to be seen. It's probably much less in effect than the intended taking of an anti-androgen drug, because we're not seeing any noticeable physiological reduction of secondary male characteristics in people, as far as I know anyhow.


there is a decline in testosterone among men, though it hasn't been linked to anything in particular. I speculate that it's these chemicals combined with spending more time inside (and receiving far less vitamin D, which is necessary for testosterone production) that's responsible, but that's just my speculation so see it how you want.


Personally I'm glad of the reduction in the whole gender stereotype culture. The expectation of males to be seen as something like sturdy brick walls, really isn't doing any favours for the expression of their emotions. This persists today - you'd be frowned upon if you got upset in a public place, yet for females it's seen as much more of a natural thing. I gladly throw away this steel facade, if it's to better my mental wellbeing.

That's good for you, you don't have to meet other's expectations. But I don't think we should celebrate/promote femininity and discourage masculinity in men.


Though I know all about coherence in the overall metaphorical and symbolic characteristics of the feminine/yin/etc being that of reflection and emotion, it by no means should be used as something to be seen in everyday situations at all. Males and females experience about the same level of emotion, and think rationally about the same as well. Though there are certainly differences, it's not to the level that you speak of. Large-scale philosophical angles are relatively subtle and should not be translated into hard brute facts of everyday life - there is a big difference.

For another example, we don't worry about getting overly emotional after drinking too much water. This is because that though water is seen by many classical element systems to be an element of emotion and impulse, it doesn't carry into immediate chemical behaviour. It would be like worrying that seeing to much fire will make me have anger issues. Hope I have explained this point enough.

I'm not talking about metaphorical characteristics about the yin/yang, I just used it as an example, I'm talking about the physiological differences between men and women. We don't get overly emotional after drinking water but we do when our estrogen levels rise.

[sqishy]

I'm not talking about metaphorical characteristics about the yin/yang, I just used it as an example, I'm talking about the physiological differences between men and women. We don't get overly emotional after drinking water but we do when our estrogen levels rise.

Males and females both have male and female sex hormones, it's just with the males that they have much less estrogen than females do.

That said, I'm not seeing the 'weakening of society' you speak of. If there is because of, basically, female sex hormones, then that covers at least 50% of the entire population.

[Syzygy]

Males and females both have male and female sex hormones, it's just with the males that they have much less estrogen than females do.

irrelevant (the ratio is often more important than the raw amount of a single hormone)


That said, I'm not seeing the 'weakening of society' you speak of. If there is because of, basically, female sex hormones, then that covers at least 50% of the entire population.

you're right, maybe it wasn't the right choice of words on my part (I am low iq and sometimes have trouble communicating my points). regardless I feel that un-feminized men are important in society, the differences between the sexes are complimentary and I don't think they should be diminished.

also to be clear I would feel the same if society were overwhelmingly masculinized.

[sqishy]

[/color]
irrelevant (the ratio is often more important than the raw amount of a single hormone)

The male hormones 'overpower' the female ones with males generally, yes.


you're right, maybe it wasn't the right choice of words on my part (I am low iq and sometimes have trouble communicating my points).


I don't see IQ as being relevant; I don't want people to put themselves down over it either.



[...]regardless I feel that un-feminized men are important in society, the differences between the sexes are complimentary and I don't think they should be diminished.


With regards to stereotypical gender and physiological aspects, I don't see any issue for you there.

For to transgender and a gender spectrum, it's not overpowering anything; it's just more apparent that it exists, and wants to be seen as existing.



[...]also to be clear I would feel the same if society were overwhelmingly masculinized.

We have the female asymmetry thing cleared up then. (I'm not talking about gender inequality, I mean my impression of your viewpoints).

[Exocet]

Stronk Serb xbob18

Look at the future doctors and teachers.
100% culturally enriched.

5bfHGBzxT1Q

[Stronk Serb]

Stronk Serb xbob18

Look at the future doctors and teachers.
100% culturally enriched.

5bfHGBzxT1Q

I think I saw that video today. Western Europe would be better importing Slavs as forced labour, we wouldn't kill and rape while on benefits.

[Exocet]

I think I saw that video today. Western Europe would be better importing Slavs as forced labour, we wouldn't kill and rape while on benefits.

Europe wants the trash you know,the lowest of the low.
-
Future doctors and teachers peacefully protesting against Nazi SS Hitler Macedonia.

kGezwC68BMs

[Living For Love]

Sorry, but I had to post this here :D On the left side of the screen, you see modern-day Jerusalem being invaded by refugees. On the right side... well, that's just a dumb Brad Pitt zombie apocalypse movie.

M8o1XTyCbNQ

Seriously, though, I just love these parodies :D

[Exocet]

Sorry, but I had to post this here :D On the left side of the screen, you see modern-day Jerusalem being invaded by refugees. On the right side... well, that's just a dumb Brad Pitt zombie apocalypse movie.

M8o1XTyCbNQ

Seriously, though, I just love these parodies :D

At least the Israelis shoot them.

[Stronk Serb]

Europe wants the trash you know,the lowest of the low.
-
Future doctors and teachers peacefully protesting against Nazi SS Hitler Macedonia.

kGezwC68BMs

They should just say 'Migrants go home!' or something like that. To be honest, if they are capable of fighting with the cops, they are damn well capable of fighting ISIS.